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Atheists Continue to Push for 9/11 Cross Ban, Claiming It Has Caused Them ‘Physical and Emotional’ Pain

Sep. 11, 2012 4:39pm Billy Hallowell

American Atheists Claims 9/11 Cross Has Caused Physical, Emotional Pain

The World Trade Center cross was pulled from the rubble of the 9/11 attacks. The cross is part of the planned 9/11 Museum. (Photo Credit: AP)

Atheist activists have a knack for picking riveting, infuriating and seemingly never-ending battles. During the Christmas season, they aim for nativities on public property and at the end of every school year, their targets set on commencement prayers.

While these battles have become all-too-familiar, there’s one showdown brewing that distinguishes itself from the rest — atheists’ demands that a cross found in the rubble following the September 11, 2001 attacks not be included in a museum that is being planned to commemorate the lives lost during the tragedy.

American Atheists (AA), a group working to advance the secular cause, has been leading the charge against the Ground Zero cross since July 2011, when the organization first filed suit against it. TheBlaze’s Meredith Jessup has explored this issue, in detail, on TheBlaze Blog, where she explained AA’s main arguments against the cross’ inclusion.

“The atheists’ suit claims that by including the cross in a museum on public property, the government is unconstitutionally endorsing a religion,” Jessup writes. “It also asserts that the mere presence of the cross would result in emotional — and possibly even physical — injuries among atheists who will feel anxious and excluded.”

Jessup isn’t exaggerating. The organization’s complaint reads, in part:

The plaintiffs, and each of them, have suffered, are suffering, and will continue to suffer damages, both physical and emotional, from the existence of the challenged cross. Named plaintiffs have suffered, inter alia, dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack and the lack of acknowledgement of the more than 1,000 non- Christian individuals who were killed at the World Trade Center.

David Silverman, president of AA, has been the most vocal opponent of the cross’ presence in the museum. By presenting the 17-foot symbol that was formed by T-beams when the buildings fell, he has said that non-believers would essentially feel excluded when they visit the museum.

“This case is about inclusion, it is not about the elimination of religion, it is about the inclusion of everyone,” Silverman maintains.

His main arguments, of course, hinge on the fact that the cross represents a religious symbol. Because the museum is backed by public money, AA argues that no religious exhibits or items should be present. But the conservative legal group Liberty Council disagrees with the atheist activists’ views on the matter. A press release that was sent out by the group earlier today reads, in part:

The president of American Atheists, David Silverman, contends that atheists are experiencing horrible physical reactions after seeing the rubble cross, such as “inter alia, dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish.” The atheists claim that the cross makes them “feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack.”

“Atheists groups would like to see a total collapse of the free exercise of religion in America,” said Mat Staver, Founder and Chairman of Liberty Counsel. “The cross is a symbol of hope amidst the total destruction at Ground Zero. The lawsuit is further evidence of the war on Christianity in America. The 9/11 cross survived the terrorist attack by Muslim extremists, and it will survive the cultural attack by radical secularists.”

(Photo Credit: Mark Lennihan/AP)

According to CNN, the museum’s planners have defended the cross, saying, “the 9/11 Museum is an independent nonprofit corporation. Its curators’ decisions to display particular objects, such as the Artifact, in the Museum are not state actions to which Constitutional protections apply.”

Interestingly, even if these protections do apply, the museum contents that “there is no legal authority for the proposition that a museum is prohibited from displaying an item with historical, cultural or artistic significance merely because that item also has religious significance.” Silverman, of course, rejects this notion.

“The argument that this is not a religious symbol is asinine and arrogant,” the atheist leader exclaims. “They want 9/11 to appear to be an attack on Christianity, and it was not.”

These sentiments have been rejected by many outside of the non-theist atheist realm, particularly those who believe that the cross, regardless of its religious connotations, gave peace to people in the wake of a horrific and historic terror attack. Jessup explains her own personal confusion over the debacle:

The World Trade Center cross was not a symbol constructed by men using debris found at Ground Zero following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Instead, the “cross” itself is a piece of debris found at the site — a group of steel beams which resembles the proportions of a Christian cross.

So why the outrage? The cross symbol only holds significance for those who believe in what it stands for. In other words, to an atheist, the steel “cross” wreckage should represent nothing but the tragedy of 9/11. It does, however, mean much more to those who believe in the cross as a symbol of Christ.

As a Christian, I cannot force an atheist to view the cross as a symbol of faith. Why then do atheists think they should be able to force me and my fellow Christians to view a symbol of our faith as nothing but debris amidst the rubble?

Photo Credit: AP

The debate over the cross, though, is only one of the issues surrounding the museum that has yet to open 11 years after the tragedy struck. In addition to the cross debate, a larger dispute over funding is unfolding between New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie — a fight that is delaying the museum’s progress.

Not coincidentally, Bloomberg and Christie are two of the individuals named in the AA lawsuit. CNN legal expert Jeffrey Toobin calls the atheists’ case “absurd” and says that the odds that the cross will be removed “are literally zero.” Still, Silverman’s group forges on in its non-theistic crusade to strip faith out of the 9/11 Museum.

(H/T: CNN)

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Comments (280)

Geo_Kat
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:00pm
These atheists are nothing but people who hate.

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- AmericanPatriot
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:36pm
  And they like to call attention to themselves by causing problems. Kind of like the family at the core of the Westboro Church.
  
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- ErinLindsey
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:02pm
  unless they’re nailed to the 9.11 cross, I dont see how it has caused them physical pain…or emotional pain.
  
  Born a Roman Catholic, was an atheist for 20something years, and now I’m no longer an atheist, but not sure if I want to follow an organized religion. Even when I was an atheist, I never understood why other atheists would get their undies in a twist over the mention of religion (specifically the Christian religion)
  
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- whatthecrazy
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:07pm
  I dont know why they feel left out,the s ene all around the ross is thier tribute.sorry the [see]on this key board does not work.
  
  Report this comment
- Bejabber
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:09pm
  Oh they can’t get anything righ. The cross is a pagan symbol of Egypt, the ankh or a tau. It is thousands of yrs older then Christ. Don’t open your mouth if you can’t get it right
  
  Report this comment
- Jenny Lind
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:15pm
  Erin, it is all about control, and they are control freaks. If they can’t find solace and peace in religion, nobody else is going to get to. Remember the story of the dog in the manger? He couldn’t eat the hay, but wouldn’t let the cow have it.
  
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- shoulda coulda woulda
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:31pm
  Does that mean that other symbols representing different beliefs and organizations also cause “inter alia” or “dyspepsia” (what ever they are) . Does the Anchor & Globe hurt pacifist?, does the Red Cross/Red Crescent hurt masochists?, does the Judiac Star hurt underground dwellers and hedonists? Since I don’t believe in Islam can I expect to become ill looking at the Crescent Moon. These and many other stupid questions need to be asked. If you don’t believe in something how can it hurt you? Please explain to this poor agnostic how all this works?
  
  Report this comment
- MiloArk
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 7:01pm
  Hey, they gave atheists recognition. Christians got their cross…Jews, stars of David…Atheists…nothing….What’s the big deal? They need to f-off.
  
  Report this comment
- GEEK_OMG
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 7:16pm
  Did I miss something? Who is forcing anyone to look at the cross?
  
  Report this comment
- drs1969
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 7:28pm
  His name was Silverman. High probablilty he’s Jewish descent, which answers Erin’s post about why it’s ‘specifically Christians’. They’re afraid of Mooslims, but they know from experience they can push Christians around, and they do, daily.
  
  Report this comment
DLV
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:59pm
Ouch kinda hurts your case doesn’t it. I would recommend against such strong language. You’ll be hammered for it and you also make christians sound like they want atheists to commit mass suicide which is not a very christian attitude to have…..

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- Git-R-Done
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 11:36pm
  It hurts our case by demanding that we have our right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion and the atheists want to take it away?
  
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janmil200
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:59pm
I’d like to cause them a little more than just “emotional” pain.

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- just the facts
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:03pm
  They do not know what physical or emotional pain is….yet
  
  Report this comment
- IslandAtheist
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:04pm
  Of course you would, that’s what your religion does to you nuts.
- football lady
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:05pm
  They have no religious faith and also no conscience! Simply stated, they are bullies.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Jerk
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:09pm
  Know who the enemies of Christianity and our culture are.
  
  Dave Silverman, President of the America Atheists… Jewish.
  
  Report this comment
- hereandnow
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:11pm
  Island theist = wannabe Christian
  
  Report this comment
- Drives Like Jehu
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:13pm
  Awwwwww…poor babies…and here I thought that atheists were such superior humans.
  
  Report this comment
- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:24pm
  The irony is that the more Atheists begin to realize they are actually doing the bidding of the Lord – the more they will do the bidding of the Lord, which will make them do more bidding of the Lord. That’s why foolish is the heart that says I have no Father. An Atheist will say they have no Lord all the while they do the bidding of the Lord – then not drinking the wine thereof – sorry fools. Like the Medes an Atheist doesn’t respect the gold of the soul, and the gold of the soul is reflected in the west in the value of metal. Yet an Atheist is the strength, and they know it not, as they say I have no Father, but yet behave as if they are the chosen – like a first born child. Like a first born child plays all the children as if they are the boss of the children, but they don’t drink the wine thereof.
  
  Report this comment
- NHwinter
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:32pm
  What about the emotional and physical pain it causes Christians at the thought of it being taken down. There are more of us so the pain is on a much larger scale. A judge should tell them to stuff it. How many atheist died in 911?
  
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- Anonymous T. Irrelevant
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:35pm
  This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion and EVERYTHING to do with control.
  
  Report this comment
- v15
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:36pm
  There a few sensible atheists that are awesome people; however, it seems like the bulk of them – or at least the influential ones – are not tolerant or respectful of other people’s beliefs. Like it or not, this nation was founded on a lot of Christian beliefs and who are you to change history? Also, since you regard yourself as being on the forefront of free thought, why not let people find comfort in religion?
  
  I’d like an atheist to tell me why a cross or ten commandments in public causes them so much distress. Is it because you have a guilty conscience? There is no “freedom from religion” in the Constitution. If there were, don’t you realize then all of the beliefs you hold dear (Atheism IS a religion) could be ridiculed and taken from public view by a group with a different opinion?
  
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- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:37pm
  Moreover I would like to thank Atheists for doing “His” bidding attacking Graven Images. After-all the Commandment says you shall make no graven image of anything in Heaven, in earth, or the waters under the earth.
  
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- v15
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:46pm
  @Annymous T Irrelevant, you are probably right about the reason for their vehement outrage over religious symbols. I’m trying to see this from an Atheist’s perspective and it does make sense that in the end their agenda is ultimately about having absolute control.
  
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- AvengerK
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:47pm
  aww…..the poor fragile atheists. In actual phsycial discomfort over something as benign as a natually formed cross that gave so much succor and comfort to the emergency crews at ground zero.
  Apparently the history needs cleansing so that our widdle atheist friends can feel “included”. Poor things…someone give them a tissue please and some pepto bismol apparently.
  
  Report this comment
- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:47pm
  Because a first born child of a young inexperience Father has been manipulated too much by the inexperience Father, and the Father laid his hands on the First-born when he should not have thus the first-born said in his heart I have no Lord. That is why it is written the first-born child [after birth delivery] shall be given unto the Lord (Liberty) for the first several years whereby the child realizes the unseen Father’s power.
  
  Report this comment
- tcseacliff
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:49pm
  HEY ATHEISTS”S , I IGNORE YOU AND YOUR NON_BELIEF, so ,why can’t you ignore me and MY beliefs ? I see a cross, you don’t. so, SHUT THE **** UP! you do not exist to me, i don’t believe in atheism !
  
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- Balpit
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:50pm
  “The plaintiffs, and each of them, have suffered, are suffering, and will continue to suffer damages, both physical and emotional, from the existence of the challenged cross.”
  
  The mere existence of a cross causes them to suffer emotional and physical pain? That’s insane! These people belong in a psychiatric ward, not a court.
  
  Report this comment
- Wolfgang the Gray
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:50pm
  Obama is causing me emotional and physical pain because he is destroying our nation. Can I sue him to remove himself (and all his pro-socialist thugs) from office?
  
  Report this comment
- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:50pm
  It really chaps someone’s rear-end when people just say “Oh alright, we’ll just remove everything, because it’s inside me anyways.”
  
  Report this comment
- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:54pm
  Now on the other-hand, as Andrew and Philip witness that Atheist is the Lord’s strength, Andrew and Philip dig gutters when they should just be leaving Peter alone. Of course Nathaniel was away from the kill, and that’s why Nathaniel is a true Israelite indeed not having any guile towards Peter.
  
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- AvengerK
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:03pm
  It’s actually just two metal beams were severed and the remains resembled a cross after the building collapsed. It’s not an actual religious relic or icon. It’s not a religious relic in a public building (in fact it’s an independently owned building) it’s an historical relic of a part of the site where crews rallied for their work. Were the two beams blessed or sanctified by the church?
  
  Similarly are we to excise the X keys from our keyboards because they’re crosses also? Heck..let’s just remove the letter “X’ entirely from the alphabet. We’ll also need to re-rate Triple X films using another letter. All crosses must be removed from public sight because they upset poor widdle atheist sensibilities.
  
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- OlefromMN
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:14pm
  The physical pain they are feeling is just Hell’s fire burning their feet. Satin is just getting them used to their after-life.
  
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- v15
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:16pm
  I agree that if two beams happen to make a cross, then this “emotional” damage they cite is because they have some serious psychological disorder and should be institutionalized.
  
  On a lighter note, I think it would be hilarious if all of the clouds in the sky for now on looked like a big, fluffy white cross.
  
  Report this comment
- MiloArk
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 7:03pm
  But the existence of atheists causes me emotional pain…’sniff” doesn’t any care? Whahhh! Grow up, jerks.
  
  Report this comment
michael7695
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:58pm
Vampires and Satan himself are affected adversely to a cross. Too bad for them

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- BloodSweatandTears
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:41pm
  All that pain and suffering? Is clearly undifferentiated fear of H-E-L-L….oooops for them.
  
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- sigsauerkraut
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 6:20pm
  Ever notice in the movies how evil beings recoil at any religious sign or artifact? Maybe their illness is a sign they should not be ignoring. To many, the artifact is a sign from God. Maybe people need to heed it. Now link this to the recent Democratic denial of God three times. Do y’all think this is just coincidence? If you do, better think twice. Biblical times did not end 2000 years ago. We are living them and it is time America wakes up! The banshees are wailing.
  
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- drs1969
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 10:24pm
  So are Jews, apparently. His name is Silverman. They have 2000 years of cross-envy built in.
  This smells like a ”Flanking Manuever”, by them, just like using the ACLU to to stop prayer at graduation.
  
  Report this comment
Thayes
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:57pm
i Still wonder how a random piece of metal found after teh collapse of the towers that has no meaning to an atheist, causes them pain and emotional distress. To me it reminds me of hope and courage and the abiding love of God. To them should it just be leftover metal with no meaning except to a bunch of bible thumpers. Get over yourselves and leave your lack of faith in anything somewhere else we have real issues in the US an this is your BS porblem. Lets worry about jobs…

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- castuslonginus
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 7:58pm
  If they really were non-believers,then it would have no more effect on them than talking about flying saucers or Bigfoot.They actually know hell is their reward and they need to take as many as they can,their time is short.
  
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kalli
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:56pm
Atheists should have no say in what is publicly displayed than any other group. Who died and made them kings of the land? They can have their opinions, but have no right to intimidate others into making changes so as not to offend these godless dead. Atheists DO NOT rule this land any more than any group, be it religious or not, and their beliefs should gain no better ground than anyone else’s beliefs. Take your horsecrap and peddle it among yourselves.

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thegreatcarnac
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:55pm
Atheist are similar to homosexuals. THey show up when the country they are in is weak. They have always been in the shadows but take advantage of a weakened country to come out and feed. We don’t have to put up with them. There is a cure.

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- jamesmac10
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:22pm
  Are you just trying to provoke or do you really believe there is a cure for homosexuality? If you really believe it then there is no reason to discuss. It is impossible to discuss with circular reasoning. If you are being provocative then you get credit for saying outrageous things.
  
  Report this comment
- drs1969
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 10:30pm
  They were called ”Carpetbaggers” after the War for Southern Independence ended. Most of them were Jewish descent. Coincidentally, many homos come from the same clan.
  
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dacorvi
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:53pm
So, another section of the Democrat party is showing us how hateful they really are. What a party! Athiests, gays, liberals, communists, socialists, marxists, anarchists, anti-constitutionalists…the list goes on and on.

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- YellowdogofMissouri
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:02pm
  I got two words for you.
  
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- svan71
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:16pm
  Amen brother
  
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mikedy
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:52pm
This is just ridiculous!! How can looking at an inanimate object cause physical pain? How about if Christians say if the cross is not there we will suffer physical and emotional pain. Since there are more of us than you we will have to allow it since we do not want a majority of the population to be physically ill!! These guys have really crossed the threshold of insanity on this one. Physical pain from a cross. On the other hand, maybe the physical pain is the guilt they feel for knowing what they are doing is wrong?

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DLV
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:52pm
Wow Atheists, just wow. I don’t even know what to say anymore.

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Popp40
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:52pm
Well their actions are causing me emotional and physical pain…..so I want to sue them…however, I don’t have the money backing me up like they do with Soros and the democrats.

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DevotedDad
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:51pm
How about digging a little bit deeper and finding out who is really pushing this Anti-Christian agenda?

Where are they getting the money from to file and hold lawsuits?

What party are the law firms and groups aligned with?

These actions cost massive amounts of money and there is no way that they have been able to do this on their own.

So this leaves the question as to who and what the real motive is.

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- NHwinter
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:40pm
  DevotedDad – I agree. Weren’t they going to have a Gay Pride day at some military base and had to call it off because the response was so small. They are such a minority, where do they get the money????????
  
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- drs1969
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 10:37pm
  I alreadty said it for you above. If this goes to court and gets support, look at the judges name, photo, and backgroud. It’s pretty obvious.
  
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GoodCook
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:51pm
Atheists cause me physical and emotional pain using their logic can we ban them?

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The-Monk
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:51pm
“American Atheists (AA), a group that……”

Here’s an idea. Why doesn’t the real “AA” (Alcoholics Anonymous) sue them for stealing/using their “AA” logo/designation? Calling all “Higher Powers”……

It worked for the (WWF) World Wildlife Federation against the World Wrestling Federation.

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- just my opinion maybe not yours
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:25pm
  Funny because AA is a 10 step program that includes God and Faith in their steps, why would American Athiest’s want to associate them selves with the logo AA. Just an observation!!
  
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- The-Monk
  Posted on September 12, 2012 at 2:00am
  @just my opinion maybe not yours
  “Funny because AA is a 10 step program……”
  
  No, it’s a 12 step program….. regardless of your opinion. You missed God and Faith I guess. Two main steps.
  
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momrules
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:50pm
I have said it before and I will say it one more time……….

These militant atheist groups will never be satisfied until Christians are forced into hiding to meet and pray. They are despicable ambassadors of Satan.

If you are not up on End Time prophecy I would suggest you get your Bible out and read.

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ChildofJesus
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:50pm
maybe they are but not in ways they may be thinking of. I’ll pray for wisdom and Lord touch their hearts.

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abbygirl1994
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:50pm
Oh for craps sake. stop looking at if it causes you poor babies so much pain etc. I certainly can turn my head at something I don’t want to see.. These people are pathetic!

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septictank
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:49pm
Take an asprin!

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Edohiguma
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:48pm
I’m an atheist and I say: leave the cross in the museum. And to the over zealous atheists I say: grow up.

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- The-Monk
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:54pm
  @Edohiguma
  
  Thank you. : )
  
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- Yuuperguy
  Posted on September 12, 2012 at 7:07am
  I am an Atheist also, and agree 100 percent.
  
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- HelixSix
  Posted on September 12, 2012 at 9:22am
  I am also an atheist and approve of this statement, a real atheist wouldn’t care about it because it has no meaning to them. Keep the cross up, it’s just a symbol to a religion I don’t and other atheist’s don’t believe in. Also, I feel as if some of my brain cells died reading comments on here.
  
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Bob_R_OathKeeper
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:48pm
Cowards….I could show them real pain if they’d like, they have no idea.

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watersRpeople
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:47pm
Too bad there’s a crucifix everywhere they look; where the post of a sign meets the sign; even at every road intersection. They are everywhere – even in the corner of your bedroom and living room where the corner meets the ceiling. Everywhere, everywhere!

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- Useful_Idiot
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:26pm
  Don’t forget telephone poles. Next, these idiots will want to ban electricity.
  
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- iampraying4u
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 7:32pm
  Take your meds tim
  
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13th Imam
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:47pm
Athiest’s are woosie’s. Pain is when a building is on fire and you have to jump from the 90th floor. Mental anguish is when your relatives have to watch you jump.

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- Oneirishman
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:39pm
  Well said, and America, on this day especially, salute those victims and there families. God Bless The U.S.A.
  
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Critters58
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:45pm
They should make two prayers and they will feel better in the morning! We are not, I repeat we are not taking it down. The reason you are suffering has nothing to do with the cross but your own crazy beliefs. Just keep suffering we don’t care. The cross stays!

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- Austen1775
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:12pm
  Amen to that!
  Yea, you heard me right-I said AMEN!
  Oh ya I did!
  
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2MINUTESTOMIDNIGHT
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:45pm
And i think we should also outlaw peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at ground zero. They are way offensive.

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- Dr.LithiumDouchebag
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 5:00pm
  Give them a free membership at the Ground Zero Mosque.
  Maybe they can convert the Muslim’s into a secular society.
  
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thibx
Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:42pm
frankly my dear i don’t give a damn how they feel.

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- TexasCommonSense
  Posted on September 11, 2012 at 4:52pm
  They will know real physical and emotional pain when meet their creator. The creator they so fervently deny.
  
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