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Faith

Atheists Rebuke Hobby Lobby in ‘Constitution Day’ Newspaper Ad: ‘Trusting in Any God Is Very Risky’

Sep. 18, 2012 11:38am Billy Hallowell

The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), an atheist activist non-profit, very frequently takes to billboards and newspaper advertisements to tout the value of a “free-thinking” society. This week, the group decided to take out a full-page, anti-theist ad in The Albuquerque Journal. It’s purpose? To commemorate “Constitution Day,” while letting New Mexico residents know that “trusting in any god is very risky.”

The ad, which was overtly intended to offend the faithful, served as the FFRF’s Albuquerque, New Mexico, chapter’s public method of commemorating the anniversary of the U.S. Constitution’s ratification on Sept. 17, 1787. But in addition to celebrating this event of historical significance, the atheist group was also taking the opportunity to directly respond to craft store chain Hobby Lobby’s July 4 ad in the same newspaper.

“We feel it is important to respond to the full page ‘In God We Trust’ ad placed by Hobby Lobby in the Albuquerque Journal on July 4, which we have researched and found to be very inaccurate and deceptive,” explained Ron Herman, who directs the FFRF chapter.

The ad Herman references was intended to encourage newspaper readers to embrace their faith. It included quotes from past presidents, Congress and the Founding Fathers — statements that reaffirm America’s standing as a nation that was founded upon faith-based sentiment.

FFRF Responds to Hobby Lobby With Constitution Day Ad | Albuquerque Journal

The ad that was placed by Hobby Lobby in U.S. newspapers (Photo Credit: Hobby Lobby)

The FFRF decided to respond to this message, using “Constitution Day” as a springboard for doing so. Rather that touting faith, the non-believers came up with an ad focused upon “godless” ideals.

“Freethinkers can all celebrate the fact that the founders of our nation were first among nations to adopt a godless and entirely secular Constitution, whose only references to religion are exclusionary,” FFRF co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor commented in a statement posted on the group’s web site.

“It’s not a coincidence that the U.S. Constitution is the longest-lived constitution in the world. Much of the success of this ‘living document’ is due to the fact that it places sovereignty not in a divinity, but in ‘We the People,’” she continued.

The FFRF ad celebrating "Constitution Day" (Photo Credit: FFRF)

Naturally, the ad will come to the chagrin of Christians who do, indeed, embrace a more faith-based historical construct for America’s founding.

“In reason we trust, because trusting in any god is very risky, and Congress could debate ‘God’s laws’ all day long instead of protecting America’s freedoms and prosperity,” part of the ad reads. “Good leaders will use reason and compromise to take us forward, not backward to the Dark Ages.”

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Comments (212)

Tax Revolt
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:24pm
I would trust in God before I would trust a human. I definitely would put my faith in God before I ever consider putting my faith or trust in the hands of an Atheist.

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- orangetom1999
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:50pm
  Atheists, Freethinkiers, and men of logic and reason have a problem for which they, like politicians, do not want you to know exists. THey do not want you thinking outside the boxes of what passes for logic and reason today. They do not want you thinking with a full deck of cards. Many of the cards are missing.
  
  Remember…..men of logic and reason..men of letters today…intelligence, wisdom, and sophistication…are in public offices all across the land and in particular in Washington D.C. Yet these same men of logic and reason ..the intellilgences…cannot balance the budget. It has gotten so bad today that you dont even hear anyone talking about balancing a budget anymore.
  
  This is a very strong indicator that the product among men of logic and reason..intelligence and sophistication is not the product advertised. Be very very careful of people trying to sell you on logic and reason. It makes perfect sense, just like politics, when speeches are made…but in the actual carrying out of it..something very different happens.
  
  I suspect that at some level behind the scenes today..the Atheists have joined up with the current political trends to sponsor confusion in the marketplace of ideas. That they are being sponsored quietly by the political party apparatus in order to sway public opinion.
  
  You see more and more of these types of Atheists/logic and reason articles and it is becoming a flood of challanges to the public thinking and values of most Americans.
  
  Think
  
  Report this comment
- cessna152
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:53pm
  Look up Psalm 118:8… in the middle of the Bible for a reason.
  
  BTW, keep it up Atheists, you look really foolish every time you pull these antics. Keep wasting your money… I love it!
  
  Report this comment
- DarkWolf
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:53pm
  YOU AND ME BOTH!!! People have betrayed and disappointed me all my life. The only one I can count on is God.
  
  Report this comment
- orangetom1999
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:58pm
  Atheists have another serious problem they do not want you to be able to think through for yourself.
  
  They must constantly use or misuse history to stick Believers back in history somewhere in order to make their anti religious/anti Christian points while totally ignoring current or recent history.
  
  They totally ignore the anti God governments which have come about in the last hundred years and what they have done to their peoples..by the millions. So too does public education ignore this while teaching and preaching the anti Judeo Christian/Humanism beliefs so prevalent today
  
  Here is something the education system does not want you to know
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
  
  If you notice about 3/4 of the way down the article the author quotes R. J. Rummel and that 262 million people have died at the hands of their own government/governments and not in wars…in the last hundred years. Not way back in history or in some time warp.
  
  The interesting thing is that this has happened in times of reason/intellect, logic/ sophistication in thinking. Yet this is a line of thought Atheists will totally avoid while going to the time warp way back in history some where.
  
  Now that some of you know this and can link it ..bookmark it for reference and dont be fooled by Atheists or freethinkers or the public education system again.
  
  More people have been killed and at a faster rate in recent times of Enlightenment and intelligence…logic and reason. You are never to
  
  Report this comment
- orangetom1999
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:09pm
  You are never to be able to think things through for yourself.
  
  Remember the Muslims are great believers in science. So too are Atheists. So too were and are the Communists.
  
  Atheists put great stock in the religion of science to solve the world’s problems
  
  Yet remember it is the Communists who believe in science, logic, and reason ..yet killed millions of their own people..using and missing this very science to achieve their goals.
  
  So too with the Muslims …using and misusing science to do what…destroy a nation in their midst??
  To continue ancient feuds.
  
  Do not be so enamoured of Science that you miss out on the bigger picture. Science for funds will sell it’s very soul and yours too to the highest bidder….just like politics and politicians who also use/misuse science to deceive the people they are supposed to be representing.
  
  Are some of you getting the bigger picture yet…that no one wants you to be able to think through for yourself??
  
  Think..do not emote like so many Jerry Springer’s out here. Many of these Jerry Springer’s are Atheists…very emotional..particularly when you catch them in misrepresentation and deception of history. They will label and name call very quickly…just like so many political groups and special interests of today.
  
  This is how you connect many of these groups..including the Atheists…their emotional content shows the political connection..by it’s non virtue of it’s Jerry Springer behaviors.
  
  This shows i
  
  Report this comment
- Jaycen
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:49pm
  “Free thinking”, so long as you think like the members of the FFRF.
  
  What’s with the constant reference to the Dark Ages? I guess they’re not very well educated. If they were, they’d know there are literally thousands of religous individuals responsible for the science and philosophy that brought humanity out of the Dark Ages.
  
  What a bunch of educated idiots – know-nothing academics.
  
  Report this comment
- Jaycen
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:52pm
  “We feel it is important to respond to the full page ‘In God We Trust’ ad placed by Hobby Lobby in the Albuquerque Journal on July 4, which we have researched and found to be very inaccurate and deceptive,” explained Ron Herman, who directs the FFRF chapter.
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  
  Notice how their ad simply doesn’t attack a single point made in Hobby Lobby’s ad? If HL’s ad was “very inaccurate and deceptive”, certainly the FFRF could have taken them apart, point-by-point and decimated their argument.
  
  Unless the reality is that the FFRF doesn’t have an argument of their own, except to say “I don’t like that you don’t think like me, so I’m going to shout you down.”
  
  Bravo, Regressive Socialists, bravo.
  
  Report this comment
- Britomart
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:56pm
  http://www.godfinder.org
  Which god?
  Why?
  
  Report this comment
- Claudius
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:19pm
  Trusting in reason can be dangerous. Look what happened to the French in their revolution when its leaders attempted to completely replace Christianity with the Temple of Reason. You start sliding down a very slippery slope to madness when you remove God from your life. God is reason: you remove Him and you don’t have any “reason,” logic, clear thinking, left.
  
  Report this comment
- orangetom1999
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:24pm
  Jaycen,
  
  “What’s with the constant reference to the Dark Ages? I guess they’re not very well educated. If they were, they’d know there are literally thousands of religous individuals responsible for the science and philosophy that brought humanity out of the Dark Ages.”
  
  Wow!! Great that you know that history because so few..even many Believers do not.
  History seems to be a weak point among many Believers as well as Atheists.
  
  Men by logic and reason tend towards desiring power..absolute power over others. This power Historically has been called Dictatorship, Feudalism, Tyranny etc etc. All men by logic and reason when allowed to go towards this goal…become tyrants. Slowly at first but history shows it is a pitfall in the end and has brought many a civilization down.
  
  The right religion is a check and balance on “Absolute Power.” The wrong religion and they work together to fleece the people and install an absolute feudal/Royal state. A few living off the labor of many and the economic conditions reflect this “Absolute Power.”
  
  Most nations have had some variation of Feudal/Royalty or “Absolute Power” in the hands of a few while the rest had almost nothing. Only a few nations have broken out of this stranglehold and our nation is attempting to return back to “Absolute Power” or Feudalism in the hands of a few..by logic and reason.
  
  Suggest some of you watch this..
  
  Greed by Milton Freedman.
  
  Very interesting .
  
  http://www.youtube.com/wat
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 3:15pm
  [I would trust in God before I would trust a human]
  To speak for god is to speak as god. Everything that is said to be gods word was conceived by and written down by men, not god. And there is NO evidence to the contrary.
  To pollute “reason” with god is to have no argument at all. Saying “because god says so” is an intellectual cop-out and will do nothing more than make you look foolish. If you want to defeat progressives you must have well thought out reasons, not passages from some dying asinine bronze age myth.
  
  (inb4 some damn unchristian christian tells me I’ll look foolish in some imaginary afterlife.)
  
  Report this comment
- Alina.D
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 7:18pm
  Pontiac.. you will look foolish. Just wait and see :) it will be too late to tell us you agree with us though :(
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 7:58pm
  @Alina.D [it will be too late to tell us ]
  Yes, how convenient for you and your myths that none of your “super natural boogie men” are able to manifest themselves to anyone that disbelieves in them. Enjoy your pious ignorance as there is no evidence you will get your money back when this movie ends.
  
  Report this comment
- colt1860
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 10:08pm
  These Atheists are fools. It is by reason and sound logic that I believe in God.
  
  In a letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816, Thomas Jefferson wrote regarding his book, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth:
  
  “Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christians.
  
  I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands.
  
  1. The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man.
  2. There is only one God, and He is all perfect.
  3. There is a future state of rewards and punishment.
  4. To love God with all the heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all. These are the great points on which to reform the religion of the Jews.
  
  No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advance toward rational Christianity, and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed from His lips, the whole world would at this day been Christian… Had there never been a commentator there never would have been an infidel. I have little doubt that the whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also.”
  
  Report this comment
- Fatheroftwo
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 10:11pm
  When rights are given by a group of people, they get to decide what rights you get and what you don’t! They get to decide what rights you get dependent on you race or sex or age or weight or height or whatever they choose! Then just as fast as they gave them to you, they take them away! And this is what I’m suppose to trust in???? I think not! My rights are given to me by GOD and only GOD can take them away!! They can either be protected or abuse by people and that’s it!!
  
  Report this comment
- DarkJello
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 2:16am
  Too many atheists are zealots when it comes to worshipping science!!
  
  What is worse, they frequently intellectualize, confabulate, and/or willfully ignore Nature’s Law.
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 10:04pm
  [and/or willfully ignore Nature’s Law.]
  Gasp, you got me! It was just yesterday I was walking on water, turning water into wine, and rising from my grave.
  
  Report this comment
SiVisPacemParaBellum
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:19pm
I would rather trust in a (In others opinion.) fake God that can’t be vetoed, then lawmakers that use there “Reason” to dictate your life, and “Compromise” us into slavery.

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- Danimal98367
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:26pm
  Right . . . list the atheist leaders in the US verse the theist ones. For all our history. If we have problems it clearly comes from the 99.999% that are/were theists.
  
  Cripes. Looking for boogie men because god is always right (even if men get him wrong). Heads, god wins. Tails, you lose. Unbeleivable.
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 3:27pm
  @Danimal98367
  Absolutely. 99.9999% of our government is made up of theist and all they’ve gotten us is 16 trillion in debt and eroded away our freedoms. Maybe they should stop trusting some “god” will get us out of this mess and start using reason.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 6:41pm
  DeavonReye… if you’re going to quote me use the actual sentences that I wrote to you please.
  [You claim that “this loving god chooses not to force people”] – That is not what I typed.
  It is not that “god chooses not to force people”, it is that He can’t. Period. Just from a philosophical standpoint it would go against the nature of Freewill, which from a theological standpoint is His Devine gift to Man.
  
  “… the natural world shows a completely naturalistic mechanism AND no evidence of “a god”….”
  Ah… you are coming from the standpoint that nature came from nothing by nothing. As in there is no “evidence” of a Prime Mover. So where did the nature of things come from. By what happenstance did the googolplex of structures, both organic and inorganic come from? In other words, what caused the “spark of life”? What is the mathematical probability of all the untold structures arranging themselves into the form of the Universe? We can never count the structures so perfectly arrange in the Universe that sustains it, nor the life within this very world. How is it that this very planet happened to form, in its grand cosmic improbability, to support life? You do understand that from a cosmic standpoint if the planet was just a fraction of a fraction out of alignment in one direction or the other, this biosphere couldn’t support life? What caused Life? What caused the first instance of matter? Where did it come from?
  (cont.)
  
  Report this comment
- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 7:04pm
  Something of a caution here. You will run into the name DEAVONREYE a short space below here. I suggest that before getting involved with him, that you type his site name into your search engines. He apparently uses the same name on all sites. It will be easy for you to locate and read much of his writings. He is intelligent, an author, and very full of himself. Devoted to Hitchens and Dawkins you will know where his spirituality is anchored. Engaging him is just feeding the troll. I made two short and succinct posts and will leave it at that.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 7:34pm
  Thank you RJJINGADSDEN. I said my peace. Se la vi.
  
  Report this comment
- DarkJello
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 2:24am
  @pontiac:
  
  The very fact that MOST of our leaders have turned AWAY from God has directly caused our current decline. If they would turn back to Nature’s Law, religion, and morality, we could begin the long road back to redemption. And our leaders are ever more likely to ignore God because the percentage of Americans that do the same has steadily climbed.
  
  Man has never successfully managed a nation by focusing on logic.
  
  Report this comment
- makamae
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:35pm
  Danimal98367
  
  “If we have problems it clearly comes from the 99.999% that are/were theists….”
  
  Nothing could be further from the truth. Life’s problems, as well as society’s, are placed squarely on target of those who decide to just do things their own way. This is exacerbated when those who are the problem depart completely from the notion of God. Stalin, for example, who killed more than 20 million people.
  
  Conversely, religious entities are responsible for the modern notion of hospitals and founded almost all early universities throughout Europe and the US, in the early days. Most charitable institutions are religion-based as well. Racking my brain, I can’t come up with a single atheist charity group.
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on September 20, 2012 at 5:44pm
  @DarkJello
  If you want to live under a highly moral & highly religious theocracy move to Iran. I’m certain they mirror your morals, they just have a different “prophet”.
  
  Report this comment
Jenny Lind
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:19pm
Atheists are tools of Satan wether they know it or not. The last days are here, and satan will use whoever is available, and much of this earth does not believe. We are in for tough days. Argueing with them is pretty useless.

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- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:28pm
  Lol. No, I think they’re tools of God and don’t know it. I think it’s more like you’re a tool of Satan, and do not know it.
  
  Report this comment
- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:29pm
  Satan wants to build his Kingdom above God’s Kingdom, not have it destroyed.
  
  Report this comment
- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:53pm
  Like I said: churches are the devil’s playground.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:57pm
  Jenny, . . . .do you find it odd that “Satan” is more believable? If “Satan” works with making everything look exactly like it does. . . .natural evidences, . . . then to damn people to hell FOR believing that testable evidence is sadistic.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:48pm
  JENNY LIND… Yes, keep the Faith! The world is in denial of the Truth for it is far removed from God. It is the time of Apostasy written about in Revelation.
  For the atheists (Bruce P., Hova, DeavonReye, Danimal98367, et al), this message is for you. The person you want to deny the existence of desires your own souls too. Read this message in full. Afterwards, type in “Atheist” in the sites’ search and read the results. If anything read them for entertainment. What harm can it cause you to read them? How can a “delusion” be of any threat? Go on… you spend so much time reading and posting here, what harm is there in spending 15 minutes reading something you can get a chuckle from?
  
  September 10th, 2012: How you suffer behind your badge of Atheism
  http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/how-you-suffer-behind-your-badge-of-atheism/
  
  Report this comment
- Danimal98367
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 3:00pm
  Here’s a fun little thought experiment for you:
  
  Does god make mistakes? Is god loving and just?
  
  If god created man he created me. If he created me he created my brain. My brain tells me there is no god, therefore god created me and gave me a brain that tells me god doesn’t exist. Did god make a mistake?
  
  If there is a god that gave me this logical brain, I will be condemned to hell for not believing in god because of the very brain that god created for me. Therefore god created me to be fodder for hell. How is that a just god?
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 3:07pm
  Pax, I’m not an atheist. I’m agnostic. At any rate, . . . I may look at this site this evening. I can only hope it isn’t malware.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 4:29pm
  DANIMAL98367…
  “If god created man he created me.” – True.
  “If he created me he created my brain.” – True.
  “My brain tells me there is no god, therefore god created me and gave me a brain that tells me god doesn’t exist.” – True.
  “Did god make a mistake?” – No. If you decide not to believe that is your choice (Freewill). God will not violate Freewill, no matter how misguided it is. The Truth will always be presented to you out of Perfect Love for you and for your benefit, whether you accept it or not. Those who understand in our limited way ask you to reconsider and will fast and pray for you. With all the Love of God, come with us please! There is not much time.
  
  “If there is a god that gave me this logical brain, I will be condemned to hell for not believing in god because of the very brain that god created for me.” – Answered in the prior response, but sadly yes for it is your choice (Freewill).
  “Therefore god created me to be fodder for hell.” – False! He created you to be with His Holy Family for all eternity in perfect Love and Happiness.
  (cont.)
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 4:35pm
  DANIMAL98367…
  (cont)
  “How is that a just god?” Because the Truth is presented to you with Love. You are so Loved that He can not violate that Love by forcing you to reciprocate, for that is against His Loving Gift of Freewill. He very much wants you to be with Him, but he can’t force you to accept His Love. If you choose to reject Him that is your Freewill and as heartbroken as He will be (For on the Cross He cried, “I thirst!” out of His Devine Desire for All of His Creation to be intimately United with Him.) This may seem as a paradox, but it is the Truth in it’s simplest form.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 4:48pm
  DeavonReye… my apologies. Nope there are no malware on the site.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 4:50pm
  Pax. . . . your appeal has no bearing on what is actually true. You claim that “this loving god chooses not to force people”, . . . but IF that is true, then he absolutely DOES “force people to believe what isn’t actually the case” [again, IF the bible and christianity is true]. A person can only respond [if they are honest] with what they are given. If all there is shows “no god”, then that person MUST take a sincerely honest stance. If this god is real, and chooses to remain completely silent and hidden, . . . AND the natural world shows a completely naturalistic mechanism AND no evidence of “a god”, . . . then that is on this god, 100% when people don’t “believe in him”.
  
  People don’t “choose” an unsubstantiated claim that ONLY other humans tell them “you must believe it”. . . . and it logically be equated with “I know this god is real, yet I reject it”. No sir! It just doesn’t work that way. The actual truth must FIRST present itself! If it does not, then what it true is based upon what the natural world tells us.
  
  Report this comment
- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:09pm
  DEAVONREYE, I see that you are quite the Christopher Hitchens devotee.
  http://www.youtube.com/user/DeavonReye
  
  Report this comment
- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:20pm
  Deavon Reye, Thou dost proselytize much. I can see that you are spiritual, in fact you certainly claim to be spiritual and not religious on one of your other sites. Might I suggest that you practice live and let live here. It will save yourself and others much angst.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:56pm
  I am on a search for “the spiritual”. That is true. . . . . and truly hope to find it. However, at the same time, I feel compelled to speak out here when things either make no sense [as I want people to actually THINK about the aspects of their faith, rather than just be a "yes man" on the Sunday pew], or when people relay a falsehood, which serves no purpose.
  
  And yes, I found much of the late Hitchen’s words to be quite magnificently profound. Much more than those “cut and paste” christians who have let clergy think for them.
  
  Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post to me, and visit my site. I really need to make some quality videos, just don’t have a good setup, but am working on it.
  
  Report this comment
- Danimal98367
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 6:31pm
  @Pax
  
  So, my god-given brain says there is no god and you accepted that as a true premise. Then you say I will go to hell for believing what my logical brain told me – what god told me by giving me a brain that cannot believe in fairytales about god. And still say it is justice. If there is a god he gave me a brain that tells me there isn’t a god and by beleiving the brain god gave me I am condemned to hell for denying god (while being true to what god gave me, by the way).
  
  You say that if all the evidence my brain can compute says there is no god then I am using freewill to choose to believe that and using freewill to dismiss the existence of god (whichever one is the right one) – BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD but I should believe anyway… So, god demands those he gave logical brains to to ignore evidence and only believe in unicorns, I mean god or else go to hell. That is not justice that is sadism. Totalitarianism. Crap.
  
  Some guy who may or may not have actually existed thousands of years ago called Moses claims god talked to him in a burning bush. Evidence? Believe it or face eternal torture dictated by the god in the fire . . .
  
  Nuts.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 6:42pm
  (cont.)
  Will you accept the mathematical improbability of all the right happenstances to coalesce into forming life on this world? If one minute detail changed, just one Nano second or meter, nothing on this world let alone the universe could exist. That is Faith. Everything is balance so finitely when it comes to Life that it can only proclaim God.
  
  “If this god is real, and chooses to remain completely silent and hidden, . . .”
  But God didn’t “remain completely silent and hidden” if you accept the words given from His Prophets of old and new. Again that is your choice. It is a matter of Faith.
  
  “…then that is on this god, 100% when people don’t “believe in him”….”
  Nope that is on the individual.
  
  “People don’t “choose” an unsubstantiated claim that ONLY other humans tell them “you must believe it”. . . . and it logically be equated with “I know this god is real, yet I reject it”. No sir! It just doesn’t work that way.”
  You are right in so far as no one ever tells another human that “you must believe it”. However, if someone presents “an unsubstantiated claim” and allows the person to receive it out of Love and Faith, then yes it does work that way. That is why it is called Faith.
  
  “The actual truth must FIRST present itself! If it does not, then what it true is based upon what the natural world tells us.”
  The Truth has and is presenting Itself.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 6:44pm
  Exodus 3:14 (New International Version)
  “God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
  
  Matthew 3:17 (NIV)
  “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
  
  John 14:6 (NIV)
  “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
  
  And if you click the link I provided and read what is on the site you will get the present proclamation.
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 6:47pm
  DeavonReye… if you’re going to quote me use the actual sentences that I wrote to you please.
  [You claim that “this loving god chooses not to force people”] – That is not what I typed.
  It is not that “god chooses not to force people”, it is that He can’t. Period. Just from a philosophical standpoint it would go against the nature of Freewill, which from a theological standpoint is His Devine gift to Man.
  
  “… the natural world shows a completely naturalistic mechanism AND no evidence of “a god”….”
  Ah… you are coming from the standpoint that nature came from nothing by nothing. As in there is no “evidence” of a Prime Mover. So where did the nature of things come from. By what happenstance did the googolplex of structures, both organic and inorganic come from? In other words, what caused the “spark of life”? What is the mathematical probability of all the untold structures arranging themselves into the form of the Universe? We can never count the structures so perfectly arrange in the Universe that sustains it, nor the life within this very world. How is it that this very planet happened to form, in its grand cosmic improbability, to support life? You do understand that from a cosmic standpoint if the planet was just a fraction of a fraction out of alignment in one direction or the other, this biosphere couldn’t support life? What caused Life? What caused the first instance of matter? Where did it come from?
  (cont.)
  
  Arrrg Blaze prog
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 7:00pm
  In the end it comes down to Pride and Humility.
  For those that refuse to accept it, it will be because of Pride.
  
  http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/my-word-is-my-word-no-man-can-defend-my-word-for-it-is-cast-in-stone/
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 8:11pm
  DANIMAL98367…
  
  “logical brain told me – what god told me by giving me a brain that cannot believe in fairytales about god.”
  
  “If there is a god he gave me a brain that tells me there isn’t a god and by beleiving the brain god gave me I am condemned to hell for denying god (while being true to what god gave me, by the way).
  
  In trying to be sarcastically witty you are making all your arguments circular, which is very weak basis for not believing. In addition, why are you accepting the existence of God in your hypothetical assertions to disprove God?
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 8:54pm
  pax, you have completely missed the point.
  
  Going under the argument that your god [from the bible] is true and created each person according to his will [for in the womb I formed you...].
  
  1. There are those who cannot accept a “by faith only” world view.
  2. There are those who accept what is logical and evidential.
  3. There are people who make an unfounded statement of faith and tell those [in 1. and 2.] that they must believe what is not evidential or even logical, but requires them to believe in magical occurances thousands of years ago.
  4. If god made each person, forming them in the womb, AND knowing what each of them will hold as a world view [since 'he' knows the future], and specifically creates their brain to be unable to believe #3, yet still spins those atoms that way, then this god made the “choice” for us from the beginning.
  5. If the person in #1 and #2 is incapable of believing the fabrications found in #3, then it was never “a choice” for them to begin with. It was the only option, based upon all REQUIRED data points, . . . of which, aspects of #3 have NO evidence.
  
  It is really quite simple. Not sure why you can’t see this. For a person to make an INFORMED choice, there has to be more than one credible path to take. To say “you chose hell” by merely seeing the world for what it is, naturalistic, . . . that can only be an absurdity.
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:29am
  DeavonReye… I apologize for such a late response to your post. I hope you will still read this.
  
  1. There are those who cannot accept a “by faith only” world view.
  
  2. There are those who accept what is logical and evidential.
  
  (cont.)
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:36am
  Arrrrrg… once again.
  
  1. There are those who cannot accept a “by faith only” world view.
  I would not disagree with you entirely, nor would St. Thomas Aquinas… c.f. Suma Theologica (which I’ve studied, though admittedly a while ago). I would replace “cannot” with “will not” for “cannot” presumes the agent is incapable of making a choice, even if the agent is presented with an effective argumentation for the existence of God.
  
  2. There are those who accept what is logical and evidential.
  Position “2.” presupposes position “1.”, so again I would not entirely disagree with you, nor would St. Thomas Aquinas… c.f. Suma Theologica. The Suma is based on logic and uses the evidence in nature as evidence for the Existence of God.
  
  3. There are people who make an unfounded statement of faith and tell those [in 1. and 2.] that they must believe what is not evidential or even logical, but requires them to believe in magical occurances [sic] thousands of years ago.
  Only Wahhabis/Jihadist would “tell those… that they must believe….” Again, c.f. Suma Theologica if you want explanation of what is “evidential” and “logical”. I will repeat it yet again, nature itself proclaims its Creator. The word “faith” is based in “an unfounded statement” for it does not require proof to believe. “[M]agical occurrences” are not equitable with the supernatural for magic is derived from human efforts.
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:42am
  4. If god made each person, forming them in the womb, AND knowing what each of them will hold as a world view [since 'he' knows the future], and specifically creates their brain to be unable to believe #3, yet still spins those atoms that way, then this god made the “choice” for us from the beginning.
  I would disagree with “unable to believe”. Refusal to believe do to intellectual pride would be more apt. God does not create an agents brain to be incapable of belief. You yourself have a belief in natural law. Again, God cannot force a “choice” for it would go against the very nature of God (which is perfect and absolute Love) and His will for His creation to express itself in Freewill.
  
  5. If the person in #1 and #2 is incapable of believing the fabrications found in #3, then it was never “a choice” for them to begin with. It was the only option, based upon all REQUIRED data points, . . . of which, aspects of #3 have NO evidence.
  ”Fabrications” because #1 and #2 refuse to intellectually accept another’s assertion because they can’t verify the assertions with their own personal senses. Hmmm, I smell Descartes’ “Cartesian Doubt”.
  
  (cont.)
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:49am
  Excuse me, “[M]agical occurrences” are not equitable….” I meant to say, “… are not equated…” it’s getting late.
  
  (cont.)
  No evidence you say. You ignored my prior post about evidence in nature itself. Again I say prove where the matter that created the cosmos came from. Nature is proof in of itself. It is call “Prime Mover” in philosophical/theological studies. Something was the first of everything. Where did it come from? Again, you will not be able to say where the “spark of life” emanated from, much less matter. The existence of matter has to have an impetus, so what caused it? This was the point at which Richard Dawkins argument fell apart.
  
  If it is so simple then I should be accepting your assertion, given that I’m semi-intelligent and a most amenable sort of person. But I do not accept it for it would be denying the Truth as it was revealed to me in Nature and Spirit. Are you are assuming that my position is not “informed” because it is incongruent with your own “Naturalist” faith? Again, if you need proof of the existence of God, then read the messages on the site that I linked to in the prior posts.
  
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- makamae
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:28pm
  Danimal98367 –
  
  Your circular logic is foolish and fallacial. A God who gives you the freedom to make your own choices and to either benefit or suffer from the accompanying consequences doesn’t argue himself out of existence, just because you think you’re clever.
  
  Apart from that, the notion that you think the way you do because you were made that way is patently absurd. While it’s true that we have certain things encoded at the genetic level, we all ultimately make our own choices about what we want to believe, how we’re going to act. If that weren’t true, then you wouldn’t choose to frequent the web site of one with whom you so vehemently disagree.
  
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floridareader
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:16pm
What will atheist do now?
Will they call for a non-craft-day kind of boycott?

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catholiccowboy
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:15pm
Let he who thinks he has wisdom take heed! For he knows nothing. You silly liberals, reason and all it’s attributes come only from God. For one to say reason before God, Is like walking into a room that is to bright and trying to turn up the darkness. Just silly!

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:24pm
  If “reason comes from god”, . . .then why do they find no reason to believe in that god, and reasonably so? Reason tends to indicate that our world and universe operate entirely on naturalistic principles. Evidence has been discovered to show a GREAT amount of age for both this planet and the expanse of space. Natural causes promoting natural effects. Nothing remotely like “the supernatural” is evident.
  
  So, “reason” points towards the atheistic viewpoint. Just because “a lot of people believe in a faith based world view”, . . . that doesn’t mean it holds more “truth”.
  
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- Danimal98367
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:33pm
  Everything comes from an unproveable God? How about not. God doesn’t exist.
  
  In no other part of life and interactions would you accept the “head I win, tails you lose” standard that is “god”. With god, you pray at the start of the day to be healthy and safe. At the end of the day if you managed not to hurt yourself vacuuming the living room and avoided licking public toilets, you thank god you were healthy and safe. Heads, god wins. If, though, you got injured or came down with a horrible illness then you pray that you can learn what god has to teach you and that you’ll recover fast. Tails, god wins. In no other relationship or life situation would you accept such gaming.
  
  I could cite a library of evidence that points to there being no god but faithful people, rather than looking at 999,999 solid, independently verified colluding evidences that point toward scientific explanations will say “ah, but that one missing piece must point to god therefore…” Again, in no other aspect of life but faith in an unproveable being(s) would this be acceptable.
  
  If some random ‘evidence’ indicated Israel was about to attack the US, you freak out if military leaders told Obama “don’t attack, we have 999,999 items of proof that they are an ally” but Obama as Commander in Chief says “but I have 1 item that says otherwise therefore send the nukes.” Yet, because you god-folk have a few subjective experiences and nurtured prejudices, you stick to your god over reason and
  
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- colt1860
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 10:19pm
  I didn’t need to seek God, he sought me. I didn’t need to read the Bible, his eternal laws were in my heart. MY conscious convicted me. No one convinced me about anything, I personally experienced the love, hope and joy in knowing the truth that leads to happiness and safety, prepared for my future and my posterity’s. I didn’t seek any literature, I volunteered and willingly helped my neighbors, family and relatives when they needed help, and realized we’re here for a purpose, and are not here in vain for naught. I studied the history of the world, read of its miseries, downfalls, progression and could witness that we’re all full of wrongs and sins, that no man is perfect. I witnessed our fallen state, and how we quickly go from bad to worse. Surely, this ain’t all there is to it? I found that if there must be right and wrong there must be some balance in place weighing in all these factors.
  
  I believe in a Grand Creator of the Universe, and in his eternal Laws; by reason and sound logic, I’ve arrived there. I substantiate and prove my belief in God through reason and science. In fact, it was the Enlightenment Era that taught that the Universe was ordered, systematically ordained, and could be figured out by man’s mind, and was created that man may search and find the Glory of the Creator therein; and, that there were certain eternal truths that applied to all men everywhere. Wherefore no man is above another in his natural state.
  
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- makamae
  Posted on September 19, 2012 at 3:40pm
  Danimal – I find far more evidence of God’s existence than of yours.
  
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hi
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:11pm
The Case for Christ is written by a Yale Law grad who hated Christian and set out to disprove the Bible. On his journey he became a believer. His book proves in legalese that the Bible is true.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:20pm
  Just because a book makes a claim. . . that doesn’t mean it was all encompassing. I find the book to be highly suspect in its claim. . . that Lee Strobel was a christianity hating atheist. It is not a compelling work.
  
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- Danimal98367
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:30pm
  It proves God flooded the earth 6000 years ago or so? It proves God hated man so much he murdered them all but a few and killed all animal life too, just for kicks? It proves that God said “let there be light” and there was . . . and later he added a light source called the sun? It proves Jesus really actually even lived? It proved he absolutely died and rose from death?
  
  Nope.
  
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watersRpeople
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:09pm
Quick lets run off to the South-west to find a rock to hide behind. Lol.

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Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:04pm
And Hobby Lobby should have come back to the atheist with the question “Should muslims trust in Allah?”

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- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:14pm
  Atheists are doing a fine job destroying aren’t they? I guess the gates of hell aren’t prevailing against them.
  
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Capt_Gregg
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:58am
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

One has to reach pretty far to interpret this as a lack of religious faith on the part of the founders, or to use it as an excuse to prevent a religious display on public property.

Regardless of how many now try to interpret it, the provisions regarding religion were simply put in place to prevent the establishment of an official national church as was the case in England (the Church of England), and to prevent the persecution of unpopular sects. One must keep in mind the large number of people that had fled to America from various European nations in order to escape such persecution.

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floridareader
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:58am
Aha, hum, lets see.
“Freethinkers can all celebrate the fact that the founders of our nation were first among nations to adopt a godless and entirely secular Constitution, whose only references to religion are exclusionary,” FFRF co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor comments.
What they forgot is that Article VII of the Constitution estates: “THE YEAR OF OUR LORD”.
Who do they think our founding fathers were invoking? George III, I don’t think so.

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Calm Voice of Reason
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:57am
They do have a point. It isn’t uncommon to find stories from the Bible belt about some child or another becoming sick and/or dying because their parents were convinced that God would take care of them. I see people all the time doing nothing to help themselves with jobs or shelter because of their belief that “God will provide if he wills it”. At some point all people have to think-reason-for themselves.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:05pm
  True. And I have to wonder why they “trust” in a god who already “has a plan, knows the future, and knows when and how people will die”? “Trust” seems an odd word, then. It should be more about “accepting the inevitable”. Also, it would negate the purpose of “praying for something”. They can say a prayer of “thanksgiving or praise” all they want, . . . but “FOR something”? Do they think it would change a future that their god already knows about?
  
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- Mercie78
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:31pm
  I disagree. The bible does state that God does not help those who will not help themselves.
  
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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:39pm
  “God helps those who help themselves”? Not in the Bible. “Consider the lilies”? Yeah, you’ll find that one.
  
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- takeryma
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:49pm
  Anyone who knows anything about Scripture knows very well that God encourages us to act for ourselves. If we don’t there are consequences.
  2 Thessalonians 3;10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat.
  Proverbs 10:4 A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.
  Proverbs 20:4 The sluggard does not plow in the autumn; he will seek at harvest and have nothing.
  Proverbs 14:23 In all toil there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty.
  Proverbs 21:25 “The desire of the lazy man kills him, for his hands refuse to labor.”
  
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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:01pm
  Shall we take the words of Paul over those of Jesus himself?
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:39pm
  TAKERYMA… the scriptures you cite are not of God helps those that help themselves. They are about proper stewardship of work, time, talent and resources to develop what you earn.
  
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- colt1860
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 10:29pm
  “Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you… if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.”
  
  “So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
  
  “Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
  
  “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”
  
  “Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.”
  
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HOOT_OWL
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:55am
The FFRF loves the twist the truth don’t they. For a group of people that love to tout
reason and moving forward, they sure LOVE to use the ancient tactics of distorting ,
lying ,deception ,intolerance bigotry and Oh , I almost forgot HATE.

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lembrandt
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:54am
That’s funny because almost every atheist I have ever known *isn’t* good without God. They believe that they are the final authority of goodness and charity. They believe there isn’t a *final* arbiter to assess their lives…and they act they way. God, or whatever, or whomever – protect me from human beings who don’t have *any* fear of heavenly judgement – people like that tend to do horrible things and then shrug their shoulders…

Atheists keep referring to the Middle Ages and the Crusades and the Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials as examples of how religion can be horrible. Those are, in some case, nearly ancient examples and mankind (except for Islam) has moved on to an enlightened phase where such examples are simply not acceptable to logical people.

Here are some examples of *current* history – the kind of history where there are people still alive who were affected by it – Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and other examples of Communism, which is the political expression of atheism. How did that work out? Where is the example amongst them of reason and human kindness? People like to say that Hitler was Christian, but he really was not – he simply was smart enough to use the church to his own ends, ends which were also devoid of decency of any kind.

Take God completely out of our lives and we *will* be susceptible to leaders who have no reason to be kind, no reason to allow freedom…no reason. Then…the Dark Ages will follow.

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- NeverFalterNeverQuit
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:19pm
  well said.
  
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- pinostabaum
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:20pm
  that enlightenment that you alluded to, which led us away from the inquisition, the crusades, the witch trials: that was the separation of god from the state. you know how the muslim world is pretty barbaric when it comes to prosecution of gays, christian missionaries, uppity women, etc? thats because islamic states still have god in them.
  
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- pinostabaum
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:28pm
  when you have strong, centralized, dictatorial states run by godly men, you get crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, pogroms, genocide, etc. when you have strong, centralized, dictatorial states run by godless men you get re-education camps, death marches, pogroms, genocide, etc.
  
  how about we work on limiting, weakening, and decentralizing the state, so we dont have to worry about whether the men at the helm are godly or godless?
  
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TEIN
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:53am
LoL!!! Oh silly religion of Atheism..it was man’s reasoning and compromise of man’s values over a caring heavenly being values that brought about the dark ages…Do Atheists understand what makes truth true and principles work??? Moving “forward” the atheist way will turn the USA into the Middle East…

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- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:01pm
  Lol. It is said the darkness does not understand the light. Far be it from your heart that an Atheist is the strength, and cause. An Atheist fulfilling a portion of the Commandments, yet knowing it not.
  
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- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:08pm
  An Atheist is the strength the gates of hell will not prevail against. Lol. I don’t figure you know the light much.
  
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- watersRpeople
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:20pm
  Atheists deny, deny, deny.
  
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Wool-Free Vision
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:51am
I would submit that trusting in any atheist is a far riskier proposition.

In my opinion, the FFRF can’t get to Hell fast enough.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:01pm
  You almost seem giddy about that, Wool. Are you happy about people being in torturous pain for all eternity?
  
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- Wool-Free Vision
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 2:09pm
  DeavonReye, you’re a tool.
  
  I’m not at all happy about it. And I’m certainly not “giddy.” But when those people spend their lives doing everything they can do to earn that fate, then there would be a certain amount of satisfaction in seeing justice carried out.
  
  As for your “giddy” comment, I would only say that you shouldn’t be throwing stones from your glass house. The observable giddiness in this thread is in you, the arrogant, self-possessed fool who is obviously getting off on his own perceived intellectual superiority. You mock God and those who believe in God, and you actually believe that your willful ignorance of His presence makes you somehow more enlightened.
  
  When you get finished patting yourself on the back for having proven nothing but your own arrogance, step back and recognize that you have commented more in this discussion than any other poster, only to actually say one thing: I am my god. Your exercise in self-importance hasn’t affected the faith of any believer who has read your multitude of words, and yet you would still pretend that you are somehow superior to all of us, because of your arrogant position. Meanwhile, those with eyes that can see and ears that can hear actually pity you for your ignorance.
  
  You and the FFRF are fools on a fool’s errand, trying to affect the beliefs of the faithful by parading your own lack of understanding.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 3:02pm
  Ha You’re funny. So, . . . you’re NOT happy with people “going to hell”. Then you are against that which “gives glory to god” and will praise ‘him’ for sending people to a burning torture chamber of the everlasting. You condone it with your worship!
  
  I’m surprised you’re able to get on that horse of yours, . . . . it’s so high! You claim to “know” and “call those who don’t agree with you fools”, yet provide nothing to back up your claims. I’m not interested in your “faith”. I’m not interested in YOUR unsubstantiated claims. If there is a god, he/she/it is welcome to have a visitation with me. I’m open to what is said. However, what I will NOT do is take the words of another common human being as “the gospel/truth” just because they make a claim.
  
  You call me “my own god”, yet fail to realize that you have already placed “god status” upon other men and their claims. I have no god. I certainly would never qualify as one. I’m good with that. I’m good without having “a god” to keep me in line. I keep myself in line!
  
  So don’t put words in my mouth. I am not “a god”. I don’t “mock any gods”. I speak out against what other humans expect me to believe about a CLAIM.
  
  What is MORE important is that you “hasten people to go to hell”. You are a monster.
  
  BTW, what evidence do you have for this “hell” you speak of? A book? From other common humans? That’s what I thought.
  
  Please….
  
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- Wool-Free Vision
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 3:39pm
  Color me completely unsurprised that you either misconstrue or utterly fail to understand every point, made with utmost clarity, in my previous reply. I will pray for you. In the meantime, you might want to re-read what I said above, this time without the blinders of defensiveness and condescension you so liberally employ.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 4:13pm
  Oh, I read it. But you obviously didn’t read mine. I could care less about your belief that “people earn or deserve eternal hell by their actions”. NO one deserves eternal pain and suffering for finite “sins”. Furthermore, you failed to respond to the fact that you MUST agree with your god’s “sending people to that eternal torture” and must PRAISE this god for doing so. Therefore, you condone suffering and dispare all so that your god can receive glory in it. Ghastly!
  
  If you don’t get satisfaction from people burning in hell, then you have a problem with your god. Good luck with that.
  
  I would MUCH rather live an HONEST and SINCERE life, . . . and let the chips fall as they will [IF your religion is correct, after all]. . . then live a lie solely because people expect me to. You must not have seen my posts where I clearly point out that I am incapable of “just believing the christian story” when the ONLY “motivation” is other HUMANS telling me “it is true”. Sorry, . . .not good enough. And should your religion be true, I will stand confidently in place with my honesty in tact. If your god is actually real . . . he made me this way. So it is on ‘him’, . . . 100%!
  
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- Wool-Free Vision
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:22pm
  Again, your arrogance has blinded you to understanding. Allow me to enlighten you:
  
  I said:
  “In my opinion, the FFRF can’t get to Hell fast enough.”
  
  You replied (and continue to reply):
  “Are you happy about people being in torturous pain for all eternity?”
  
  You misunderstand that my point was that these people are actively TRYING to get to Hell and are stomping on the accelerator as hard as they can.
  
  I then said:
  I’m not at all happy about it. And I’m certainly not “giddy.” But when those people spend their lives doing everything they can do to earn that fate, then there would be a certain amount of satisfaction in seeing justice carried out.
  
  Which you then completely failed to comprehend, again, when you said:
  “What is MORE important is that you “hasten people to go to hell”. You are a monster.”
  
  Again, I do not want ANYONE to go to Hell. I, like God in Heaven, wish that no one would experience such an eternity. That is why He, in His infinite mercy and wisdom, chose to send His only begotten Son to suffer death IN OUR PLACE, so that ANYONE who believes in Him shall have everlasting life.
  
  The sad truth is that the most arrogant among us refuse to accept the gift of Grace, because they believe, in their arrogance, that THEY KNOW BETTER THAN GOD. If you cannot see how arrogant and stupid that is, you are truly lost.
  
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- Wool-Free Vision
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:23pm
  God’s Creation requires balance in all things in order to work. That means there must be a price, or counter-balance, for human sin. Human beings are incapable of perfection, though perfection is what it takes to achieve eternal life. The gift of free will is simultaneously an enormous burden which is impossible to overcome by man. But God, through sacrificing His Son (the God become man), miraculously makes it possible for all of us to have life eternal. His intervention balances the scale. All we have to do is recognize our own imperfection and accept His gift of eternal life in Heaven.
  
  I cannot imagine a more torturous Hell than ETERNITY spent in the void, away from God’s light, knowing forever and ever that all of my suffering was caused by my stubborn pride in refusing to see the doorway that was standing wide open right in front of me my whole life. A doorway which was thrown wide open by a merciful God who wanted nothing more than for me to see it and walk through it.
  
  The fact that I have spent so much of my time today trying to enlighten you should be proof enough that I do not want to see anyone, even a prideful fool, go to Hell. I will be praying for your salvation, and perhaps, sometime before you die, you will pull the wool of arrogance from your pitiful human eyes and accept the gift of Grace.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:50pm
  You can understand my confusion with the sentence. It can just as easily be seen as “you can’t get them there fast enough”. If I misunderstood that part, then I retract it.
  
  However, if people are sent to hell, . . . it is all “for his glory”. . . because nothing happens that isn’t “for his glory”, and “in his plan” all along. If I am completely unable to see this god being, but only the natural world, then all I can do is be honest about it, which I am. The story about “a suffering lord” just doesn’t play into my world view. On the surface, it sounds nice, but understanding the big picture [which you have to do outside preconceived religious notions] doesn’t give that story the same “fuzzy warm feelings”. It is an ultimatum based upon lack of necessary information for a sincere decision. Just the words of people. Those who wrote religious texts, and those who believed them. That’s it!
  
  As for “perfection”, [if your god, and christianity is actually true] . . . why does your god hold humanity to “perfection” when ‘he’ isn’t? It is worth finding the instances where the Old Testament god is actually either wrong in what ‘he’ states, misunderstands biology, is unaware of what’s happening at times, and seems to require what ‘he’ doesn’t have. These are find-able occurances.
  
  I would even go further to say that this god would be unqualified to judge, but that’s for another time.
  
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- colt1860
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 10:36pm
  Most State Constitutions at our founding had the following similar words for a reason:
  
  “That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor either in this world or in the world to come.”
  
  “That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.”
  
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thegreatcarnac
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:50am
Atheists are a sad lot. To spend your time trying to destroy people’s belief in God is like trying to tell them not to believe they are alive. The whole weight of the Soviet Union could not rid most Russians of their faith,…they just kept a low profile. Obama’s election has enabled this revival of atheist but obama will be gone in November and perhaps we will have God fearing person in office. Christians in this country will not keep a low profile…we will be victorious.

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yiska8
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:50am
I always love going to Hobby Lobby! I never come out empty handed. The ad mentioned “dark ages”. Which “dark ages”? The current ones we’re living in under Obama?

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- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 5:05pm
  I shop at our Hobby Lobby often too. I always pick up lots of bits and pieces through the various sections that I can use in my hobby, as well as other household projects that just seem to pop up. My only gripe is the lines at the registers. Even a short line takes and exorbitant lengthy time because, and I don’t mean this in a sexist way, the women in line usually get into a gab fest with the cashiers. But, if that is my only complaint about the place, I really can’t complain. Obviously, the employees are friendly, and courteous to their customers, and know their products well.
  
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moreteaplease
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:49am
“In Reason We Trust”? What a hoot! I’m thinking they forgot the “T” before the “R”

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DoctorRon
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:48am
Those who deny God should study quantum mechanics and come up with a better explanation.

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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:54am
  What does QM have to do with God?
  
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- lembrandt
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:55am
  Doc…quantum mechanics and “the big bang theory”, which, to me *is* scientific proof that God exists. The type of proof I have been hoping for for a very long time.
  
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- Jenny Lind
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:14pm
  It was profs and researchers at BYU that found the tiniest particle known as of now. The funny thing about atoms and tiny particles? They all have movement. The bible speaks of rocks breaking their silence and singing and the spirit of the earth. We are so far from knowing how God created this earth, so far from knowing the greatness of God the Creator. We are kindegardten students here. Imagine how much more we will know as we go on in the eternities? (sorry about my spelling-I can’t find spell check on this computer).
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:54pm
  Jenny, . . .the bible ALSO says that “lightning reports to god before it strikes”. . . . . . so,. . . .
  
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thibx
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:48am
i have one request of God when i get to heaven. that He will allow me to look into hell and see you there.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:58am
  Wow. . . . . . you really said that.
  
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- DoseofReality
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:56pm
  And here is the modern christian – relishing others imagined torment. And you wonder why there are more and more people who turn away from your brand of religion.
  
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- colt1860
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 10:39pm
  You won’t have to ask:
  
  “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
  
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Glynrd Skynrd
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:47am
I’ll be picking up some picture frames at HOBBY LOBBY on my way to Chick-Fil-A.

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- kickagrandma
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:54am
  Agree and PRAYING as we go giving thanks in all things, including being awake at this time.
  
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- cubber
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:56am
  Excellent. Thanks for the suggestion. Any body else interested?
  
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moreteaplease
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:45am
”trusting in any god is very risky.”
———————————-
Trusting in The God is not however. Also, trusting in the FFRF is spiritually suicidal.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:51am
  You can “trust” in a lot of things. I “trust” that my chair will hold me up. So far, it has. When I “trusted” in [at that time, capitol "G"] “God”, it was the most absent thing I ever did. Things I “trusted for” either never came to pass, or were to be “taken on faith”, . . . which was useless. I got to the point that I no longer had time for “trusting a god who was never there in any definite way”.
  
  So, please feel free to put your “trust” in whatever you want, . . . .but it isn’t “the magic pill” that many christians attempt to push.
  
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- Umbrum47
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:08pm
  @DEAVONREYE: True, but its not the arsenic pill that the atheists believe either.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:17pm
  I can agree with that. Just in MY case, “trusting” was pretty much a black void. Your mileage may vary. :-)
  
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- breakobamanow
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:02pm
  @ Devonreye- Have you read the parable of the farmer sewing his seed and how some fell on stony ground and others among the thorns? Once you accept Jesus and the free grace of God you must plow up the fallow ground and sew good seed. Prayer and reading the word of God are requirements and symbolic of plowing. You live in the world but you can not be of the world. You have to separate yourself from the “spoilers” (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life) to continue in your old ways after receiving Gods grace and being saved, will not please God.
  
  Matthew 4:4
  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
  
  If you do not read and study the word, God will not be with you very long and your faith will whither and die.
  
  Romans 10:17
  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
  
  I’m sure there are many others like myself that see God’s presence in their lives daily. Because I read his word, I pray and I obey him. I cannot explain it if you have never experienced it. He shows me things I never knew or thought I could even begin to understand. Trust me he is real. I was a sinner and a doubter like you for most of my life. Until I picked up the word and began to read it.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:09pm
  Yes, I know that story very well, . . . and did as you stated here for many years . . . . but never had anything outside myself that was found. Just words and others telling me “it was true”. I “cultivated the seed” for many years. I just never realized that “the seed” was entirely inert.
  
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- breakobamanow
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:23pm
  Devon- I want give up on you I’ll pray that God will manifest himself to you in some way that you will know. If bible prophesy and current events, are not enough I hope he provides you with other proof. It may not be the thing you’re looking for but I hope it comes, and when it does you will recognize it.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 18, 2012 at 1:57pm
  I appreciate the sentiment, . . . but no, “bible prophesy” and current events are not compelling. For current events, any time you have religious conflict between two competing and combative sides, you will find wars. And the vague “prophetic writings” of the bible are SO vague that you can make any present event appear in past stories. Things are similar. Circular. Histories and actions repeat themselves. It is not at all amazing when a past story has similar characteristics to later ones.
  
  Anyway, I am quite open for any god type being making itself known. It may very well be a “Contact” type experience. When Dr. Arroway dropped straight through “the machine” [to everyone else's understanding], yet she experienced a few hours of time, though not being able to prove her journey, . . . it would have to be something like that. Not to that level, of course, . . . but something that I KNOW happened. . . . . . not just something that another human being TELLS me “I must believe because it is true”.
  
  Again, thanks for caring.
  
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Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:45am
So if Hobby Lobby is so bad, where do the LGBT get the glitter for their glitter bombs???? I thought so.

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sta
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:41am
Time to head off to Hobby Lobby!!!!

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wisehiney
Posted on September 18, 2012 at 11:41am
Great Read.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/09/18/Newspaper-Ad-Revenues-Collapses-to-1950-Levels

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