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NJ Megachurch Pastor: America Isn’t a Christian Nation (Do You Agree?)

Sep. 25, 2012 9:39am Billy Hallowell

Is America a Christian nation? This highly-contentious question continues to lay at the center of debate in both theological and political circles. On Sunday, megachurch Pastor Tim Lucas delivered a fascinating answer to his congregation: America is not, in fact, a Christian country.

On the surface, the preacher’s comments will certainly be troubling to some who embrace the notion that the U.S. is, indeed, a highly-religious nation. Lucas, the head faith leader at Liquid Church in New Jersey, took the time in the sermon to fully explain his views on the matter.

Pastor Tim Lucas: America Isnt a Christian Nation | Liquid Church

Pastor Tim Lucas (Photo Credit: Liquid Church)

“When we call America a Christian nation, what that assumes is at some point in our history we were operating wholeheartedly in the kingdom of God,” Lucas explained. ”There is no doubt our country has been blessed and influenced by Judeo-Christian values. We’re thankful for that. But there’s very little evidence that America as a whole ever had some golden age when we operated wholeheartedly with kingdom of God values.”

While some will argue that the U.S. was never intended to be a Christian nation, others contend that the country is undoubtedly religious in nature. Lucas’ statements are fascinating in that they acknowledge Christian influence, but seem to focus upon action (or inaction, for that matter). In the pastor’s mind, the nation has never, on the whole, operated “with Kingdom of God values.” This, in his view, seems to cut down the notion that the country is Christian-led.

As part of the church’s “Poll: Faith, Politics and the Future of America” sermon series, Lucas has been conducting live polls, via text message, with congregants. This past Sunday, the pastor asked where “separation of church and state” originated. According to The Christian Post, many thought that it came from the Constitution, but it actually originated in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in 1802.

Pastor Tim Lucas (Photo Credit: Liquid Church)

While the left uses this “separation” statement to claim that there should be no mention of faith or religion in the public sphere, many on the right reject this notion. As for Lucas, he believes that the First Amendment’s establishment clause, which reads, in part, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” has been misused.

Rather than protecting the government from religion — a notion that secularists and liberals often cite, the law was set in place to do the exact opposite, Lucas contends.

“Freedom of religion was established to protect the church from the state, guaranteeing us we can worship any way we want in public,” he told the congregation. “Unfortunately, in our culture, it’s kind of got twisted a little bit.”

Lucas also encouraged parishioners to vote their conscience, to put God first and to make government second, telling his congregation, ”We are Christians before we are Americans.”

Liquid Church has made headlines in the past for other fascinating means of reaching out to its congregation and the public at large. Last year, Lucas gave “stimulus” cash to his congregation, an interesting act that TheBlaze, among other outlets, reported on.

Watch Lucas’ fascinating sermon here. What do you think about his views? Let us know in the comments section, below.

(H/T: The Christian Post)

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Comments (191)

Nevermind
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:16am
sWampy
Have you every read anything but retarded liberal talking points? Go read some of the writings of the founders, read the discussions that happened during the founding, and you will discover you are an ignorant fool. As long as you remain in the ignorant uneducated fool category there is zero reason with arguing with you, it would be a better use of time to argue with a rock.

************

That isnt very Christian to “judge ” me as an ignorant fool. You know the ” judge not lest ye be judged thing” so start acting like a christian and maybe your faith will get some respect.

My liberal talking point? The treaty of tripoli signed by President Adams is a liberal talking point? Nice try but facts are facts. You have an opinion while I have a fact backed by the US government. FAIL

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- bumchecks
  Posted on February 13, 2013 at 12:40pm
  Regarding whether or not America is a “Christian nation,” the highlights from the book described at http://www.abiblecommentary.com/blog/2011/09/02/the-sexualization-of-america/ is very enlightening!
  
  Report this comment
DyingHard
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:15am
How can a nation that claims to hold religious freedom so high claim to hold a religious distinction? If anything, America is a nation of many faiths.

Above, PhillyAtheist wrote: there is no doubt that Christianity has played a large role in our nation’s history, but to say that America is a Christian Nation is both untrue in history and unlikely to persist into the future. not only that but it is offensive to non-Christians and is an ideal that Christian’s should reject out of respect for people of other faiths.

I wish to break this down bit by bit. I may reply to this post for more space. Firstly, I agree with his/her statement that Christianity has had a large effect on our founding. Most of the people that fled Great Britain were Christian. Christian ideals and Scripture were often quoted by the Founding Fathers. Yes, this nation has its founding in Christianity(yes, I am a believer – a Southern Baptist).

I even agree with his/her second part in that America is not a Christian nation. A Christian nation would imply a religious theocracy, and American is NOT about that. We are not the Vatican, and praise the name of God that we are not.

Lastly, the last part I DO NOT agree with. I’m not worried about offending others of other faiths. It’s my job to spread the gospel, not worry about your religion. I’m not going to “blindly accept” what you don’t believe in. I’m not going into the night as previous generations have. Expect to see more of me asking

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- jzs
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:42am
  “We in the United States, above all, must remember that lesson, for we were founded as a nation of openness to people of all beliefs. And so we must remain. Our very unity has been strengthened by our pluralism. We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief.”
  
  - Ronald Reagan, Speech to Temple Hillel and Community Leaders in Valley Stream (October 26, 1984)
  
  Report this comment
- Strait Talk Express
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:46am
  What I don’t understand, is what is a mega-church? A very big building where everybody fits in and prays to what ever they want? To save money? Or does everybody need to be exactly the same? It would be hard to fill a place like that in the country.
  
  Report this comment
- NOTMOHAMMED
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:11am
  Some are good, and some are bad, STRAIT TALK. This one’s bad, mmmkay?
  
  Report this comment
- cessna152
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:17am
  Although I do agree with your post, this is a bit of “word twisting”. Just about every country has their heritages, beliefs and customs. This country’s is based on the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ. I believe the Declaration, Federalist papers and The Constitution were divinely inspired by God. The writings and quotes of almost ALL the founders praise God for all that has happened and for the foundation of this country. The basis of this country is that of God, freedom, morals and values. This is the heritage and belief of this country. We may not be a “Christian Nation” but we most certainly are a nation built on the Foundation, freedom and love/Mercy of God almighty. This nation, dedicated to God, has changed the entire world in way that no other country in the history of the world has done. The most giving nation and people EVER in the history of the world. Coincidence? Nope…because as two groups of explorers left England…one group in search of gold and one of God. Which group ended up with everything?
  
  It’s very simple, the founders dedicated this “new world” to God as its leader….this is a nation based on God and Godly principals.
  
  Report this comment
- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:17am
  DYING – are you finished? it seems like you’ve got additional thoughts, and i’d like to hear where you’re going with this. very thoughtful response, imo.
  
  Report this comment
- BuzzardSays
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:01pm
  It only takes a quick review of the nightly news to know that Christians who have a real relationship with Jesus are on the wane in America. There are so many tares amongst the remaining wheat that those who love Jesus are being choked to death by the unGodly who we suffer in our midst.
  
  Jesus’ hand is at the door and the harvest is nearly complete. Thanks be to God.
  
  Report this comment
- Wayner
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:27pm
  Where would America be today if instead of the Puritans landing on Plymouth Rock, a muslim group had landed there? We would more than likely still be riding camels.
  
  Report this comment
- ViewPointtt
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 3:03pm
  We are a Christian nation because the great majority of Americans embrace Christianity. Even if the majority of Christians do not meet the definition of a holy life they are still Christians if they openly state that they are Christians or if they silently embrace Christ as the Son of God and Redeemer. Christianity does not require immediate perfection of virtue. It is a steady progression of small steps over a lifetime. Depending on diligence of study, dedication, devotion, refinement, and obedience a Christian can achieve a higher level of grace more quickly, but remains a work in progress until the last breath. It was nearly 4 years ago that Obam shocked Americans with the assertions that we are not a Christian nation and that the U.S. is one of the biggest Muslim countries in the world… the shock has gradually subsided. This is one of his greatest hopes and strategies; to slowly strip away the armor of God that has protected our nation and blessed us with unprecedented prosperity and prestige. The first step is to manipulate as many Americans as possible into denying Christianity, Christ. As more and more Americans fall for this deception, the separation from God will continue to increase until our nation rightfully falls into the hands of our salivating enemies.
  
  Report this comment
- TRUMPETCALL
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 3:28pm
  America, at one time, and possibly only in its infancy, might have been a Christian nation. Which is to say thay the majority of inhabitants were true followers of Christ.
  
  However, the major players were soon co-opted by the international Powers That Be, and thus began the downward spiral culimnating in the Sovereign Hand of the LORD God Almighty pulling away His Divine protection.
  
  “Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.”
  (Galatians 6:7)
  
  We have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind.
  
  Report this comment
- mtcountrygrl
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 5:19pm
  I can tell you this…We don’t ever want Islam as the majority religion in this country. Every nation in the world where that has happened, freedom is replaced with Sharia.
  
  Report this comment
kinggrain
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:15am
The term “Christian Nation,” is misleading. If you mean that the country is 100% Christian, then no, this country is not a Christian nation, and never has been, but if being a Christian nation mean most of the citizen’s are Christian, then yes we are. When we refer to countries as Muslim, I don’t believe everyone is a Muslim, although, Saudi Arabia comes close. In our minds, we still refer to 50 countries out of 192 nations around the globe as Muslim.

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- daver18
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:27am
  Your comment has some merit, but is incorrect in saying that most citizens of America are Christian. By far most are not. The fact is that at best around 3% are truly Christian. A large majority may claim they are, but Jesus made it clear that many who claimed to be His children would find out in the end that they are not. That’s why the Bible says we are to examine ourselves to be sure we’re truly in the faith. Remember, the way is narrow and few will find it.
  
  Report this comment
- PubliusPencilman
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:50am
  “but if being a Christian nation mean most of the citizen’s are Christian, then yes we are.”
  
  So, since the United States is majority white, would you say it is a “White Nation”?
  
  Report this comment
- cessna152
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:37am
  @daver18,
  
  John 3:16 ring a bell? If you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that Jesus is Lord, you’re saved. Do you know of any other way? Did I miss something? You do know what judgement means,right? No one can judge a man’s heart for God…only God can. Don’t go there unless there is BLATANT sinning that is ignored by the Church and 1 Corinthians 5 explains it pretty clear. I suggest you read up on your Bible.
  
  Report this comment
- Patrick74
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 3:21pm
  Cesna – John 3:16 does not say that. Belief is key, but, as James 2:24 says, we are not saved by faith alone (the only time the words faith and alone appear next to each other in the NT). Further, neither faith nor works mean anything (they are clanging cymbals) without love. And in Acts, the people ask what they must do to be saved – and they are told they are to repent (belief) and be baptized (works, in a sense – it shows the NON-ontological dualism of actual Christianity), and THEN they shall receive the Holy Spirit. Simply believing something, even strongly, doesn’t get you “saved.” And, no, since I know this is coming, I am not a Latin (follower of Rome).
  
  Report this comment
- Patrick74
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 3:35pm
  Cessna – also, the NT, itself, says that all Scripture is good for reproof and instruction, but the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth. Christ also stated He would establish His Church, not His Scriptures, not His “belief” or “quasi-amorphous belief system,” nor would He establish a “loose coalition of various groups that more or less agree on a certain number of things but disagree on others.” Ephesians 4:4 tells us there is ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE body (that is, Body of Christ, the Church). As one far smarter than myself one time said, Christ is returning to reclaim His bride, the Church, NOT His harem.
  
  Report this comment
- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 3:54pm
  @Daver
  Umm..3%…really…please site specific verifiable sources that show this…not your preacher/pastor or some book he/she said you should read…
  from the US Census information…still just over 75% of Americans say they are Christian. Of those, only about 1/2 say they attend some form of church service more than twice a month…so if anything, your numbers should be around 30-35% of this nation are still ACTIVE-PRACTICING members of a Christian denominations…whether that be Evangelical, Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, Methodist, Lutheran, or Non-denominational.
  It does NOT MATTER what you say they believe is false or invalid or how you interpret the Bible to say their belief is not true…the only man that gets to do that is Jesus Christ and the ultimate Judge – God the Father has the final say when we are judged by Him.
  As others have stated, America is a Christian Nation because America was created by men that placed their lives in the hand of God and allowed Him to guide their thoughts, words, and deeds to create this nation based on the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God. FREEDOM is a gift from God. He gave us FREE WILL, to rule ourselves, govern ourselves, and CHOOSE to follow Him or not.
  Our Founders, in their own words and deeds, tried to do that their entire lives and THAT is why America is a Christian Nation..not because we have 70% or even 90% of the citizens active practicing Christians…
  
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HOOT_OWL
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:14am
Just about the time the Godless have this country the way they want it , It going to collapse .

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- autumnmorning
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:31pm
  Amen
  
  Report this comment
perry1980
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:12am
I agree that Athiest are in larger numbers now than they were 4 years ago
I agree that the Democrat party has taken in all the godless voters.

But i Don’t agree that this nation is not a Christian nation. It is still predominantly christian.
But if Obama gets elected again by 2016 we might not be a Christian Nation any longer

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Texan832
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:11am
Why is this even a story?

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- riseandshine
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:18am
  That’s what I say. Next.
  
  Report this comment
- NHwinter
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:33am
  Why? Because it is, in the end, the question of life. What is it all about? What direction are we heading in? What motivates our actions, personally and in our political choices?
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:10pm
  Because too many “christians” think otherwise.
  
  Report this comment
- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 4:08pm
  NH is right…this is the ONLY question..the ONLY story that matters….when America and Americans start to believe this CRAP, then the nation is over, there is no turning back, we will burn and the end is near…..
  America is a Christian Nation and as Reagan stated, we are that shining city on a hill..the NEW Jerusalem…
  everyone talks about how the United States in not mentioned in the Bible book of Revelation but that somehow China and Russia are…really…I would LOVE to see how they say this nation of Gog and Magog means Russia and China…China was the only nation around at the time of the writing and they were NOT called either of those names…
  there are references to Gog and Magog being the Vikings and Goths, Tartars and Huns, Babylonians, even Macedonians and Romans…but NEVER China…there are references in the Book of Revelation and Ezekiel that DO name many of the Arab nations of old and Persia as working with Gog and Magog…
  
  I believe that America, the nation with more Jews than Israel nearly, is the seat from which Christ will call His Army to come to the aid of Jerusalem and the chosen people of God, the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which by the way have mingled with every nation on earth today but which means Biblically as the followers of the ONE TRUE GOD..not Allah or Buddah or the all might dollar
  
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Calm Voice of Reason
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:11am
And those of us who aren’t Christians, we should not feel welcome in our own home? I think it’s great that you all have the freedom to practice any faith you choose and I have no problem with the fact that a good number of those who took part in the legal establishment of this nation-state were adherents to a faith similar to yours, but I also have a right to not take part in all that superstition. Sure you may win the vote to keep God in the pledge of allegiance, but what worth is an oath that a large portion of your countrymen cannot make? What kind of victory is that?

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- huey6367
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:22am
  Superstition is a little strong but that is your opinion. No one is asking or demanding you take part in what you describe as “superstition”.
  
  “Sure you may win the vote to keep God in the pledge of allegiance, but what worth is an oath that a large portion of your countrymen cannot make?” Um, a large portion of people in this country believe in God be it Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. The only ones that make up non believers are atheists and that is about 8% of the population. Most would say 8% is not a large portion of the population.
  
  Atheists see somekind of opportunity to voice their opinions even when no one is listening. But you have that right in a Christian founded nation.
  
  Report this comment
- johnjamison
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:25am
  The oath doesn’t require you to pledge yourself to God. The oath is to America to the Constitution that fact that the oath implys we are blessed by God founded in the self governoring ,live and let live principles of Christanity doesn’t require you embrace God. And if you have a problem with swearing an oath to the Constitution based on the protection of the rights of free men from tyranny and the Country it founded …THEN QUIT LIVING UNDER IT’S PROTECTION MOVE TO SOME SECTUAL ALL KNOWING GOVERMENTAL COUNTRY LIKE EUROPE …..We’ll see how you like it when the basic freedom that for forefathers believed all men were granted are taking away.
  
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- HopeIsLiving
  Posted on September 26, 2012 at 11:16am
  Calm voice of Reason, I think you’re a little out of touch to categorize faiths such as Christianity “superstition.” From Augustine to Edwards to Grudem, Barth, and Zacharias, Christianity is compelling not only due to its longevity throughout historical times of intellectual endeavors, but it stands today as one of the most studied and debated areas of intellectual criticism. I agree that there have been people for whom faith could be characterized as superstition, but to describe the whole by the part is a fallacy in argument at best, and perhaps insulting to those of us who are passionate Christians and intellectuals.
  
  Sadly, one of the greatest tragedies of the modern era is to assume that reason and faith cannot coexist. Only recently, as we are rising into a postmodern era, have we begun to rediscover the significance that the right brain brings to the left (see “A Whole New Mind” by Daniel Pink).
  
  In the meantime, my hope is that you might also discover the significance of Christianity and what it brings to the table. It is far more than a mere anthropological phenomenon, and has at times been the only thing that brings meaning to the questions we grope at in our supposed sophistication of reasoning.
  
  That said, if there has ever been anything to make you feel as if you are not welcome in your own home, as you mentioned… You should know you are valued, even if some of us have caused you to feel otherwise. I’m sorry if any of us (Christians) have hurt you
  
  Report this comment
00100111
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:10am
LOL, look at the usual atheist trolls hanging around here flinging feces as usual.

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- TRUMPETCALL
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 8:40pm
  @JohnJamison:
  
  You said it, Brother!
  
  Report this comment
Nevermind
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:06am
Text of Treaty of Tripoli

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

Ratified by the senate and signed by John Adams. So there is the facts, we are not a christian nation. Debate amongst yourselfs but it is pointless. You can have your own opinion but not your own facts

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- sWampy
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:11am
  Have you every read anything but retarded liberal talking points? Go read some of the writings of the founders, read the discussions that happened during the founding, and you will discover you are an ignorant fool. As long as you remain in the ignorant uneducated fool category there is zero reason with arguing with you, it would be a better use of time to argue with a rock.
  
  Report this comment
- PubliusPencilman
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:52am
  Swampy, here’s a good Founders’ text:
  
  “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”
  
  Report this comment
- Walkabout
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:54am
  “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”
  
  This is not the same as separation of church & state.
  
  Report this comment
- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 12:54pm
  @publius- you forgot to end that phrase with, “nor shall it prohibit the free exercise thereof.” The Founders wanted government to keep its filthy hands off religion but they never said that religion was take a minor or no role in social and political life. Look again at who they say can make no law: Congress. And what can’t they do? Establish a single religious denomination over any other. Why? Because they dealt with religious persecution from the Church of England and even here at home. So who’s restricted from making religious decisions? Government, not religion.
  @nevermind-The treaty itself was with the Barbary Pirates. And if you look closer in history, that treaty was rescinded when America went to war against them in the Barbary Wars. In fact, this treaty is much how we treat Muslim countries with known anti-American and anti-Israeli stances: appeasement. We give them money to appease them so they won’t attack us and then they keep bullying the world. The Barbary Pirates were a problem to the whole world but only America stood up against them. Do you see a pattern? Oppressors rise up and America puts them down. Why do we do that? Why don’t Muslims do that? Or Hindus? Or Buddhists? Or Confucians? Because Christian America fights against evil wherever and whomever it may be.
  
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- Verceofreason
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:14pm
  Facts confuse this crowd.
  
  Report this comment
- PubliusPencilman
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:15pm
  “The Founders wanted government to keep its filthy hands off religion but they never said that religion was take a minor or no role in social and political life.”
  
  And no one is saying that, so quite the hysteria. People have their faith and their religious beliefs, but the Founders ensured that no INSTITUTIONS would be defined by those beliefs. That is why we are not a Christian nation in any meaningful sense. In fact, you could easily argue that any government endorsement of a particular religion constitutes a threat to free exercise, since government decrees inevitably carry an element of coercion. Declared the public to be represented by a specific faith threatens to exercise of other, non-favored faiths.
  
  Report this comment
- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:39pm
  I’m not disagreeing with you publius. I agree that the Founders didn’t want a theocracy of any kind, whether it be Christian, Muslim, or New Age. The only point I was making is that the government shouldn’t make restrictions on my faith either.
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 5:03pm
  1- @ Nevermind – have you ever read the context of the Treaty of Tripoli and the politics behind it… John Adams was looking to be gracious and end the Barbary Wars without having to destroy now Libya entirely but the Muslim Sheiks would not admit to being conquered by a superior Christian army so the language was inserted to APPEASE the Muslims – the first act of bowing to Islam in American history – so they would agree to the treaty and stop pirating the shipping lanes and hindering our trade.
  2 – Read John Adams works outside of the Treaty and you will see that he was VERY partial to the idea the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and beliefs and that GOD was in control of the destiny of this nation at all times
  3 – the First Amendment and even Jefferson’s “wall of separation between church and state” comment was ENTIRELY in the context of the government NEVER establishing a national Denomination and compelling citizens to worship like had happened in England with the Anglicans and Catholics and the wars and bloodshed that STILL goes on today…check Northern Ireland. THAT is what was MEANT in the historical context. To think otherwise is COMPLETELY creating a fantasy world that was never intended by the Founding Fathers…
  
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fangbanger
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:05am
We are not a Christian nation. We were founded upon Judeo-Christian values but we have this thing called the first amendment that protects our freedom of religion. I am not a Christian. I will defend at every turn against those that attack Christian’s for their beliefs. However I will defend my country against those Christians that want to force their beliefs onto everyone else.

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- U.N.hater
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:30am
  However I will defend my country against those Christians that want to force their beliefs onto everyone else. <<<< I think you got christians and muslims mixed up. Now just who is forceing their faith again on us?
  
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- fangbanger
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 12:00pm
  no mix up. there are plenty of christians that want a theocracy. they just arent blowing up buildings for it
  
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Nevermind
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:03am
No we are not a Christian nation and there are many simple things that show that fact.

1. The treaty of tripoli proclaims ” we are not a christian nation”

2. The 1st amendement is in direct contradiction of the first commandment. No other gods before him while the 1st amendement says no estblishement of religion so that clear that we are not chritian nation

3. When you sign up for the military you arent asked if you are christian, you can serve under any religion or lack thereof. If we are christiian nation is it christians only who are allowed to enter?

We are not a christian nation despite all the back woods bible thumpers thinking it is.

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- colt1860
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:27pm
  1. President Adams, along with Congress, ratified the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797. The treaty of Tripoli remained on the books for eight years, at the end of which time the treaty was renegotiated, and Article 11 was intentionally dropped.
  
  2. The 1st amendment does not contradict anything in the first commandment. To this date, America has NEVER referred to any God foreign to Western Christianity. That is, ALL presidents, senators, representatives and judges took their Oaths on the Christian Holy Bible at our founding. They did not take their Oath on the Illyiad or Hammurabi’s Code, nor ask for Jupiter’s, Muhammad’s, Thor’s or Thumbelina’s help or aid.
  
  3. Howbeit, it’s the Christian spirit of Liberty that has defended and fought for freedom everywhere and for everyone.
  
  Report this comment
U.N.hater
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:01am
”We are Christians before we are Americans.” I bet the muslims say the same thing about islam.

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- huey6367
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:16am
  they do
  
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SUNTZU
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:00am
You will know them by there fruits.
Few know the truth
Fewer Know what to do with it,
being a Christian and being Religious are two different things.

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antitheist
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:59am
Our founders and the earliest American senators would agree.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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jungle J
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:57am
If it were not for Christians, true Christians America would be a sewer. We are headed in that direction because we are demanding less influence from Chrisrtans. Answer you own question.

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nueces
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:57am
ABO freakin LOUTLY! We were founded by some of the greatest Christian men that ever lived. Now we are living in the post Christian age. Post Christian. Post morality. Post common sense. Post reality.

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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:06am
  ” Post reality.”
  
  you got that much right. you make it sound like Christians are some persecuted minority. someday, perhaps, but not now, not even close.
  
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- U.N.hater
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:24am
  @PHILY: Your wrong all wrong! i don’t beleive in god and would never ever call myself an athiest. If you think christians are not being attacked in this country than your either a fool or a liar. Their faith and god is under attack by muslims and mostly athiest. Freedom of NOT freedom from. I’ll stand with any christian and their rights. Seperation of church and state does not exist in the constitution.
  
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- nueces
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:25am
  Atheist,
  
  I made absolutely no reference to being persecuted. If anyone is getting the dirty end of the stick in this country it is the middle class tax payer. The producers are being hosed by the takers and that includes government union workers raping the taxpayer AND those responsible for paying the unpayable debt we have racked up. Could it be you obfuscate to confuse?
  
  Christians know that St. Paul said, “Those who do not work shall not eat.” We also know he meant those able bodied who do not work. We know these things because we still have common sense. It is our faith that has taught us to reason. We reason with Christian logic.
  
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- PIGSWILLNEVERFLY
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:29am
  For the sake of believers everywhere are facing severe persecution. For the sake, and for the sake of Him who died for us, let us remain faithful, and in the face of such comments as, “we are living in a post-Christian world,” let us respond with “Nothing could be further from the truth.” The miserable phrase, coined by defeatists and cowards who having no faith themselves seek to justify their unbelief by denying what is real. What is real is evil in the human heart, and a lostness of the human condition that no modern learning can comprehend. What is real is that everyone who embraces Christ is freed from evil because Christ rose from the dead to prove His power over sin and death. What is real is that “God is at work to do and to will His good pleasure.” No amount of cowering before evil and appeasing it can overcome it. Christ will always have influence over citizens of every country on earth. In fact, the Church is growing in ways that only those who believe in miracles can explain, especially in Muslim lands. Ft. Snelling Memorial Chapel “Where the Veteran is ALWAYS Remembered” by Chaplain Michael H. Wallamn (Army). Jesus Christ, Head of the Church.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:08am
  UNHATER – please explain how Christianity is under attack.
  
  the fact that atheists and others speak out against religion or attempt to quell the rise of Christianity in the government is not persecution. it is a right guaranteed in the 1st amendment. there is no law stating that religion in immune from criticism.
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:08pm
  @atheist- Why is Christianity being singled out then? I don’t hear the DNC voting on whether they recognize Krishna or Buddha or Muhammad. Why is it that only the Judeo-Christian God is singled out? I only hear silence when it comes to anything other than Christianity and more recently Islam, whose only claim of resemblance to our faith is the blood tie through Abraham. Other than that, we are very different. I have no problem being criticized because of my faith. It is only the fact that Christianity and its values seem to be singled out for persecution over all other faiths. I would prefer that no faith were merely criticized. I would prefer that each faith be given a proper arena in which to discuss its beliefs in an intelligent and civil manner. But what I see is quite different and quite far from that vision and quite far from our Founders’ original intent.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:20pm
  DJ – interesting take and worth consideration. perhaps though you are missing all the criticism of Islam coming from Evangelicals today. recently, my mother forwarded me an email about how Japan deals with Muslims, espousing the limits to freedom Muslims experience in that country. is that what we strive for in America? isn’t that directly opposed to the 1st amendment? from my POV, Muslims are much more under attack in America than Christians. there is certainly an anti-Christianity movement in America, but it doesn’t call for the elimination of religious freedom or propose that Christians be limited in practicing their faith. that is, however, happening to Muslims in America. have you read any stories objecting to the building of a church? or calling all Christians radicals? my question for my mother, or anyone who is suffering from Islamaphobia, is what to do about it? is there a “final solution” in mind? what difference is there between how Muslims are being singled out in America and how Jews were singled out in Germany under Hitler?
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:35pm
  Atheist- I’m sure you know this already but Japan isn’t America. And yes, I understand that there are efforts being made against the Islamic faith but the question you need to ask is are they without merit? It’s my understanding that many radical Muslims use mosques as headquarters for their jihad. I’d urge you to look at what Islam teaches rather than what some Muslims say it does. The Quran, by itself, is simply a compilation of “revelations” from Allah. To put them in historical perspective, you need the Hadith and Sira which are sayings of Muhammad and the biography of Muhammad respectively. The Quran teaches that Muhammad is the perfect example of Islam. Now when we look at these writings an at history, we know that Muhammad was a warlord for the last years of his life and received many of his more violent revelations during this time. Now there is a term, abrogation, that says that the revelations that contradict one another is resolved by preferring that the latter one supersedes the former. So while we read the peaceful stuff in the Quran, we also realize that the violent passages came later and abrogate the former ones. It is of course up to personal opinion which verses to follow and which not to, but if Muhammad is the example and the later revelations supersede the former, then violence is the true call of Islam. Jesus, on the other hand, called for no such thing.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:47pm
  DJ – i don’t disagree with you, at least not much. from an outsider’s perspective, i’d pick Christianity over Islam any day of the week and twice on Sunday. there is a reason for the violent arm of Islam, and it’s at the root of the Koran. i’m unconvinced, however, that most Muslims take it to this extreme level. much like Christians and Jews don’t stone people to death as advocated by the Old Testament. and yes, i recognize the difference.
  
  my question remains – what to do about it? are we so afraid of this pending Muslim violence that we….well, i don’t even know. what are Islamaphobes proposing as the solution? outlaw the practicing of Islam in America? shut down mosques? round them up and deport them? round them up and put them in prison camps? Muslims represent less than 1% of the population in America. are people scared over nothing? i feel like Muslims are the ultimate boogeyman for Evangelicals.
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 2:02pm
  Atheist- I too agree that most Muslims don’t practice violence. I’m simply saying that Islam leads to a greater tendency of violence than any other religion. Most of those peaceful Muslims would be like some of the Christians in America: uneducated in their faith fully and completely so that one has a better understanding of what your faith teaches. I’d actually say that some Muslims are better Christians than some of us. However, note that they practice a faith more in line with what Jesus taught than in what Muhammad did. As for what to do about it, I don’t want to lock up Muslims any more than I would want to be, especially if I’ve done nothing wrong. I think it’s important that this history of Muhammad and his violent teachings need to be revealed to both the Islamic community and to non-Muslims because it affects us when a violent Muslim, in line with Muhammad’s teachings, attempts to kill me. I think it’s important to compare Muhammad’s teachings and life to Jesus’. I understand that the Catholic Church left a horrible history for Christianity but I think it’s also safe to say that they weren’t in line with Christ’s message. The problem with this is that you could be threatened by those same Muslim extremists for speaking about Muhammad in a negative light. I’m not against Muslims. Just Muslims that want to kill me. And I want them exposed, not protected by our government. So education is the key, not senseless persecution.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 2:11pm
  DJ – thanks. i think you nailed it. my hope is that all religions keep their basic philosophies but leave behind the fundamentalist viewpoint. perhaps increased exposure to Western ways will remove much of the extremism in Islam. the same goes for Christianity. the literal interpretation of Christianity is dangerous too, but not in a violent way. it preaches an exclusive worldview and distrusts science. education may be important for all religions to survive in an increasingly diverse planet.
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 2:27pm
  Atheist- My pleasure. And while I disagree that Christianity is against science I agree that it is exclusivistic. But then again, so is every faith. Even you as an atheist are exclusive. You exclude God above all else so anyone who does believe in God is not an atheist. You get what I’m saying? I’m trying to explain this properly. I guess what I’m trying to say is that every faith teaches one thing over another. But going back to science and Christianity, I personally think they work well together. It makes believing in God all the more beautiful and believable to me. And thanks for this conversation. I hope and pray that it is this sort of discourse that prevails in America.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 2:44pm
  DJ – me too. i enjoyed conversing with you. like most Americans, i suspect we agree much more than we disagree. see you around here, i’m sure.
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 2:47pm
  Absolutely on all accounts. God bless.
  
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Twinspeedr
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:57am
No, Hollywood and the media aren’t Christian, obviously. But even today, to assert that America isn’t Christian is plain old ignorant.

Gotta love these ******* Pastors placing his personal politics and the current of Pop Culture ahead of Scripture. He probably thinks that Jesus advocated for socialism. The average elderly Church-going woman in a state like Georgia would SCHOOL this guy on what he has a 4-year degree in. Just another poor soul that is little more than a sock puppet for the enemy… Yawn.

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rahlquist
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:56am
Fortunately for the diversity we have in this country he is correct. Unfortunately the predominant tenant in virtually every religion is “If it aint ours its sin and/or wrong and you MUST compel others to be right”. And that sir is why people are so galvanized by religious debate. Tell someone they are wrong and when they die they will live in some sort of misery for that and they will fight. Thats the one thing that still works 100% correctly in this country, if I wanted to go worship at the Church of the Jedi tomorrow nobody can give me legal trouble for that.

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- fangbanger
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:08am
  couldnt agree more. well said
  
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phillyatheist
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:52am
“Freedom of religion was established to protect the church from the state, guaranteeing us we can worship any way we want in public,”

that’s not true. the government can clearly put restrictions on certain religious practices.

regardless, the essence of separation of church/state is that the government is to remain secular. that doesn’t stop people of faith from holding office, praying in public, or practicing their faith (mostly) as they see fit.

there is no doubt that Christianity has played a large role in our nation’s history, but to say that America is a Christian Nation is both untrue in history and unlikely to persist into the future. not only that but it is offensive to non-Christians and is an ideal that Christian’s should reject out of respect for people of other faiths.

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- johnjamison
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:32am
  Wrong ,Congress shall make NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion or PROHIBIT the free exercise there of.
  Not court has teh power to take away the rite to practice anyone’s religious freedom…..There is an unless
  Unless that practice harms someone else like say sacrifice.
  
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- U.N.hater
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:36am
  Are you the president of egypt moohamhead morsi? you sound alot like him.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:05am
  JOHNJAMISON – i refrained from giving examples, falsely assuming that people were smart enough to already know them. since i was wrong, i’ll list a few:
  
  faith healing
  polygomy
  animal sacrifice
  drug use
  
  just to name a few. that’s all i was asserting. the government can make restrictions on religion.
  
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- tzion
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:45am
  @Philly
  Look at history will you? When we broke from England, just how involved in religion was the government? Answer: The king of England was head of the Anglican Church, the state religion.
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:23pm
  Atheist- I find it quite significant in your last sentence that we should respect people of other faiths. I agree of course but I found it significant not for that obvious reason, but because it appears you’ve unintentionally revealed something: atheism is a faith. It is the faith that God doesn’t exist and that humanity is all there is. Having said that, why should the government favor your faith over mine? I refer you to Zorach v Clauson: “The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concert or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the state and religion would be aliens to each other—hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly.” And, “That would be preferring those who believe in no religion over those who do believe.” I, of course, urge you to read the full opinion by Mr. Justice Douglas. However, my point is why should we favor your atheistic faith over our own?
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 3:07pm
  DJ – sorry i’m just getting to this. when i said that it’s disrespecting to other people’s faiths i meant other religions. i do not agree that Atheism is a faith – it is the inherent lack of faith. i am not an Atheist because i have faith that there is not God, i am an Atheist because i haven’t seen any evidence for a deity. is saying that America is a Christian nation offensive to my sensibilities as an Atheist? yes, to some degree. but it is truly offensive to believers of other religions that truly care about what they believe in, as opposed to something i simply don’t believe in. does that make sense?
  
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DeavonReye
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:51am
Whereas most people will show up at their local church, . . . probably only a few actually do what the bible instructs. Many times, people are “just in case” types. “Just in case christianity is true”, they will profess “faith in christ” and go to church on Sundays and Wednesdays, pay their tithes, maybe even volunteer their time in church activities.

But the rest of their life is about what they will eat, what they will wear, . . . what car they will buy when “this one needs replacing”, . . . how to get financing for a new roof on the house, . . . what they can do to save up the money to take a vacation, etc. . . . In other words, they live for themselves and merely “play christian” on Sundays, or when the conversation comes up. Then, they will just “cut and paste” what they’ve heard from the pulpit or read in the bible, directed there by their devotional that they give 5-10 minutes a day for.

“Christian nation”? I don’t know. When I drive around MY city [in the buckle of the bible belt], sure, there are churches everywhere, . . . but businesses [christian or not] still focus on their own bottom line. People still talk about their “favorite on American Idol or The Voice”. They may even profess christianity, yet use more foul language than me, or are seemingly LESS caring about other’s opinions or well being.

YOU may be a good christian, but you may be rare. And I’m running out of characters here….

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:05am
  Okay, to continue….
  
  There is a mentality to preserve life. Often times, the people feel that if they play the part that’s required [give tithes, witness, give a "faith seed", have your daily devotional], you will be rewarded for it, either in this life, or “the life to come”. They sing songs that tell the story of “all being equal under christ”, . . . but will have their own church click group that . . . really requires a certain characteristic to enter. The odd people? They are grouped together “so they have fellowship with other christians”. But it’s the same as the world. If you’re “in”, . . . you have lots of friends. If you’re not, . . . you can STILL walk through a sea of people and feel absolutely alone. Why? Because people are people.
  
  So, I don’t see America being “a christian nation”. I’ve seen much of what I have talked about here personally. I was well into “those who know” when I was “a christian”. I have seen these things in my life, and the lives around me [at that time]. It is [once again] just human nature.
  
  Having said that, . . . the GOOD of human nature CAN be found in the church. Those who naturally care about the hungry can find resources to help them feed others. So, there ARE positives to those who are christian. Individuals can be surprising! The nation as a whole? I don’t see it.
  
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- djpeyton21
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:49pm
  I agree with you. Unfortunately, there are many hypocrites in the Christian faith and there are those who think that good works will get one to heaven. That’s why it’s important to remind Christians that they are saved by faith in Christ, not in works done by themselves. As for the hypocrites, I would’ve counted myself among them in the past and I pray every day that God keeps me on the straight and narrow. It should be a brother or sisters’s duty to show a fellow Christian where they’ve gone wrong and lead them in their faith back onto the right path. Yes there are Christians who act contrary to what is taught in the Bible and they are wrong for doing so. And I note that you hold them to that high standard also as I hold myself to and as how God holds us to.
  
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LIBTARD_SLAYER
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:50am
Sadly, he is correct.

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- Twinspeedr
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:58am
  No, he really isn’t. If you only pay attention to the bozos in the media and Hollywood you might think so. America is still very Christian, we just aren’t defending it the way we once did.
  
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- PubliusPencilman
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:15pm
  Twinspeedr,
  
  So non-Christians are less American?
  
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- LIBTARD_SLAYER
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:18pm
  @ TWINSPEEDR
  
  There is no doubt in my mind America was a nation founded by Godly men and based on Godly, biblical principles but does anyone really believe that the America of today even remotely resembles the vision of the founding father’s? Sorry, but a nation responsible for the murder of over 50 million of it’s unborn children, a nation now embracing homosexuality, and a nation where it is now illegal to publically display crosses or other symbols of the Christian faith is not my idea of a Christian nation. Are there millions of citizen’s in America who call themselves Christian’s?……absolutely. But America is also a county where moral decay is rampant, and it’s only goint to get worse.
  
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Verceofreason
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:49am
He’s 100%
And if the holy rollers and zealot ever ‘get’ it
they’d keep their noses out of everyone elses business.

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- Twinspeedr
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:28am
  Who do we get our laws from then? The pernicious moving target of whomever mankind? Whomever we happen to give over the reins of power to today or tomorrow? Good luck with that one. History has shown what happens in godless societies. Ask a Russian, Cambodian, or Chinese immigrant what happens when their Country “officially” ignored and/or banished God from their political and social discourse.
  
  The laws of God haven’t changed in 3500 years, and that is important because Gods law (which the US Constitution and our court system are both designed after) is designed to combat human weakness and avarice which never change despite what the ignorant Social Darwinists will tell you.
  
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- Verceofreason
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:13pm
  The so called laws of god were written by sheep herders during the bronze age to explain the unexplainable.
  We HAVE explanations now.
  Time to just but the bible in the fiction section of the library – where it belongs.
  
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- PubliusPencilman
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 1:18pm
  “The laws of God haven’t changed in 3500 years”
  
  Oh yeah, then why are there so many religions and sects (even within Christianity)? Your interpretation of God’s law can be quite different form someone else’s–what then would give you the right to command your interpretation on another free citizen?
  
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jimbo_from_suwanee
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:49am
The Messiah Jesus Christ says, “Love, free will, and brotherhood.”

The false prophet Mohammed says, “Conquer, Enslave and I’ll Keel YOU!”

The basis of freedom come from a recognition that human rights are God granted inalienable rights and righteous governments can choose to protect them. Evil governments attack them and suppress them.

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Exidor
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:43am
Liquid Church?

mkay…..

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Johnny916
Posted on September 25, 2012 at 9:43am
He is correct America is not a Christian nation. We do have a deep Christian history and the majority of people are Christian. However, we should have a secular nation compared to a nation that is Christian or baptist or whatever.

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- Strait Talk Express
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:13am
  If they asked me, I would say we are a God-fearing nation that includes every religion on earth, who at the same time protect and respect every faith including non-believers. That’s what I would say.
  
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- Johnny916
  Posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:20am
  I can respect that. As an atheist I feel people should respect one another despite their religious or non-religious views.
  
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