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Faith

Atheist Leader: Claiming America Is a Christian Nation Is a ‘Blatant Attempt to Rewrite Our History’

Oct. 2, 2012 8:58am Billy Hallowell

This article is part of an ongoing Blaze series called, “Ask an Atheist.” Millionaire secular activist Todd Stiefel answers readers’ most pressing questions about faith and non-belief. Be sure to read part one, part two, part three and part four as well. The fifth installment, focusing upon politics and the separation of church and state, can be found, below.

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TheBlaze has continued to take your questions for secular millionaire Todd Stiefel, an atheist who has contributed funds to some of the most controversial non-theist groups in America. In an effort to better understand how atheist activists operate, he has provided TheBlaze community with a plethora of answers to some of the most pressing questions about theology, politics and the ongoing debate surrounding the separation of church and state. In the fifth edition of “Ask an Atheist,” Stiefel speaks out about his views on the current political schema.

For this round, TheBlaze worked with Stiefel to craft new questions based upon some of the most controversial sticking points that atheists and theists find themselves debating. In delivering his views, the secular leader stressed that his opinions are not necessarily associated with any of the organizations with which he works or represents. Considering that he’s merely one of the many atheist activists working diligently to strip faith out of the public sphere, this cautionary note makes sense (after all, even atheist activists differ in their methodologies and views).

Atheist Leader Todd Stiefel Speaks Out Politics, Church & State

U.S. Senator Marco Rubio (FL) speaks during the final day of the Republican National Convention (Photo Credit: Getty Images)

The first question that Stiefel addressed stretches back to the Republican National Convention this past August. The atheist leader took issue with Florida Sen. Marco Rubio’s statement about religious values being integral to the nation’s fabric. During his RNC speech, Rubio said, “Our national motto is ‘In God we Trust,’ reminding us that faith in our Creator is the most important American value of all.”

When asked how this statement made Stiefel feel, he elaborated, lambasting Rubio over his comments:

This very statement shows a significant lack of American values. Pat Tillman gave his life in Afghanistan after leaving his NFL career early to defend his country in the wake of 9/11. He was also an atheist. Was Pat Tillman a bad American? Senator Rubio believes Corporal Tillman lacked the most important American value. I believe liberty is the most important American value, and that Pat Tillman was an American hero for fighting and dying defending our liberty.

America’s founding document, the Constitution, does a good job outlining the most critical American values. It opens, “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

Justice, tranquility and liberty are values we can all get behind. Instead of helping unite us behind common values, Sen. Rubio instead chose to divisively attack the patriotism of Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, and secular Jews. This country was founded on the concept of religious freedom for all. This is a land where people are to be treated equally by our government, regardless of their religion. Marco Rubio’s words show he thinks our elected representatives should drop civil equality in favor of defaming religious minorities for political gain.

It’s important to note, though, that faith has played an important role in the formation of the nation. From its conception through today, America is certainly a Christian-majority nation, meaning that — for most Americans — God is an integral concept or, at the least, a stated personal belief. But this is besides the point. The vast majority of Americans believe in a God of some sort – even if they reject the Christian theological explanation of a higher power.

As far as the offense of faiths goes, Rubio didn’t say Jesus Christ, nor did he use any specific language aimed at Christians. He merely used the term “God,” which most people of faith can, to some degree, relate to. That said, the values Stiefel noted are universal and, as he contended, they are tenets that most Americans can get behind.

The second question Stiefel answered was about the “God” debacle at the Democratic National Convention. In addressing the removal and the inevitable replacement of “God” in the party’s official platform, Stiefel was candid. TheBlaze asked how he viewed the incident and whether he believes Democrats were being honest about how the word was “accidentally” omitted:

It is hard to say if any of our politicians are honest; it seems they will say anything to get elected. Adding “God” back into the platform proved that American politics has further devolved into a superficial show of who can be more publicly pious. It is sad that representatives of both parties correctly assume that some voters are gullible enough to fall for their sanctimonious banter. The more politicians proclaim their faith, the less we can trust them, and the more we can be certain that they are pandering to people’s faith in order to manipulate voters.

I would recommend they take the advice of Jesus, from Matthew 6:5-6, “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” There is rich irony in politicians having a popularity contest on who is the best Christian by falling over themselves to violate the commands of Christ. As Americans, we need to use our votes to punish holier-than-thou candidates of both parties.

Stiefel makes a point here that some religious voters — regardless of party — may agree with. While faith is an important character trait for voters to consider, Stiefel contends that candidates shouldn’t misuse it for political gain. Contrarily, if one’s faith is truly important to him or her, it’s reasonable to consider that he or she would want to see religious adherence be embraced by chosen political candidates.

So, if a politician is being honest about his or her faith for the purposes of educating the general public about the character of a candidacy, is that so bad? That’s a question Americans have to answer for themselves. As for Stiefel — well, he made his viewpoints on the matter more than clear.

Todd Stiefel (Photo Credit: Todd Stiefel)

Considering his feelings about politicians using faith as a political tool, TheBlaze also asked Stiefel if America is a Christian nation — a question that many religious conservatives would answer affirmatively. While he was willing to admit (after all, the proportions force him to) that America is “a Christian majority nation,” he went on to express concern over the “America is a Christian nation” argument:

America is a Christian majority nation, just like Iran is a Muslim majority nation. The problem is that those that claim we are a Christian nation mean it in terms of America being as founded as Christian republic in the same way Iran is an Islamic republic. This is an exceptionally dangerous attack on our liberty. It is a blatant attempt to rewrite our history in order to base our law on a particularly fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity rather than on equality and freedom for all. We all must question the motives of those that push for Christian nationalism. What do they want? The answer is clear from their actions; they want political power.

Fortunately, we have the Constitution. If the Christian nationalists were correct, our founding laws would state that America was being founded as a Christian nation. It does not. Further, it contains no references to Jesus or the Bible. It guarantees that “no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” It founds a republic, a form of government diametrically opposed to the kingdoms of the Bible. And, in the words of Thomas Jefferson describing the First Amendment, it guarantees that our “legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

Yes, quotes can be found from some founders who wanted more religion in the government. They lost. A few quotes from dissenters do not counter the laws that were ratified. Nor do they disprove the intent expressed in a treaty unanimously adopted by Congress in 1797. When was the last time anything was agreed on by Congress unanimously? The Treaty of Tripoli states, “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

As far as American values go, one wonders why Stiefel disagrees so fervently with his more religious peers over the value of faith to U.S. society. When asked why he denies the notion that faith has made America “great and prosperous,” he said that it is actually the nation’s “freedoms, democracy and perseverance” that are responsible for accomplishing this goal:

What makes it prosperous is capitalism, hard work, innovation, science and technology. Most importantly, what makes this nation great and prosperous is the American people. That includes people of faith, but also non-religious people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.

Religiosity is actually inversely proportional to prosperity. According to Gallup International data from last month, “If citizens of each of the 57 countries are grouped into five groups, from the relatively poor to relatively rich in their own countries, the richer you get, the less religious you define yourself.” Income Bracket Proportion describing
themselves as religious:

Photo Credit: Global Index of Religiosity & Atheism

More research needs to be done to see if being religious causes you to be less financially successful, if being less successful causes you to be more religious, or if something else is happening. Personally, I believe that there are two main factors at work. First, I believe many religious leaders and organizations (such as pretty much all of the televangelists) prey on the faith of their flock to enrich themselves at the expense of those they claim to be helping. Second, I think that
those that are the most desperate turn to religion out of hopelessness. Unfortunately, as the data demonstrates, being more religious does not make them more prosperous. It appears if you want the prosperity gospel, scripture is the wrong place to look.

These proportions are certainly interesting and, as Stiefel notes, more research is needed. Of course, there are a variety of other potential factors at play. Wealth can serve as a distraction and, for some, provide false security. This, of course, is dependent upon the individual. The false sense of security that wealth may bring could, theoretically, cause one to become more consumed with the here and now and less concerned with life after death. But this is only one potential possibility.

Some of the claims that Stiefel made in this segment of “Ask an Atheist” continue to be disputed. There are many people on both sides of the aisle (and even people on the same side, theologically) who debate the extent to which the separation of church and state should be carried.

Considering demographics and past polls, one would assume that Stiefel is a Democrat, but, as we’ve noted, he’s one of the few atheist activists who subscribe to more conservative ideals.

Photo Credit: AP

When asked who he’s voting for in November, he told TheBlaze that he’s “undecided.” He’s currently considering voting Libertarian, as he is struggling with a decision regarding voting for either President Barack Obama or Republican challenger Mitt Romney.

Of the president, he said, “Obama drives me crazy. I am tired of his populist, divisive message. His main campaign point is that of class warfare, intentionally pitting the wealthy against non-wealthy.” On the Romney front, Stiefel isn’t much more favorable. He says,”the Republican primary system ruined him as a candidate for me, just like it did John McCain. They were both popular for being moderates…In the process, people like Romney and McCain ruin their hope of winning many independent votes, let alone getting Democrats to cross party lines.”

Naturally, considering his stance on church and state, Stiefel said he disagrees with both Obama and Romney using religion to boost their candidacies. Of the constitution, Stiefel contends that it “is not a religious document; it is clearly not faith-based.”

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Related:

In CONTROL, Glenn Beck presents a passionate, fact-based case for guns that reveals why gun control isn’t really about controlling guns at all; it’s about controlling us. Find out more HERE.

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Comments (243)

GETLIFE
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:05am
Let’s just say Mr. “Undecided” here gets his way and Obama wins.
My guess is that in a few short years he will be on his knees praying to Allah.

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- GETLIFE
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:10am
  …whether or not he’s an atheist.
  
  Report this comment
- johnjamison
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:21am
  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life
  God is not only mention in our declaration he is will is also sited as the primary reason behind the declaration.
  NO DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE NO AMERICA.
  Fact is the only reason that religion is in the first amendment is to KEEP A GROW GOVERNMENT OUT OF RELIGION .
  As our founder fulling understood that Government is evil by nature.
  
  Report this comment
- holy ghostbuster
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:49am
  Interesting that the Founders were so brilliant not to use the word “God,” but instead chose “Creator,” which can mean many different things to different people. “Creator” is a much more secular approach, since “God” typically refers to the God of the Bible.
  
  Report this comment
- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:39pm
  h.g,
  You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
  
  Report this comment
- PuppyKisses
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:45pm
  I don’t know about you guys, but i won’t miss this guy in heaven!!!
  
  Report this comment
- petej00
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:08pm
  Many say that since all the signers of the Constitution were Christian, this is a Christian country. However, they were all white males as well. Are we a White Male Country?
  
  Report this comment
- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:12pm
  Is there some kind of red alert every time a topic of faith is posted? I’ve never seen more atheists and antagonizers than here today. It must be a desperate forum website that acts as a watch dog group for Christian comments. How obsessive. What a waste of time.
  
  Report this comment
luv2Bfree
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:51am
I look forward to the day that all these “atheists” will bow down to GOD and Jesus and grovel for forgiveness and mercy for being so blind and stupid.

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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:04am
  kneel before Zod!
  
  Report this comment
- GETLIFE
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:12am
  Mother Nature Rules!
  
  Report this comment
- johnjamison
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:23am
  And I pray that God in his wisdom foregives them and takes mercy on those who were tricked by evil. Now the atheist who project hatred towards God I don’t think they’ll be so lucky.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:25am
  So you have hate in your heart for atheists because you believe that on this judgment day, we will be ‘justly rewarded’ with eternal damnation and torture? That’s what you can’t wait for? Man, that isn’t very Christ-like of you. He prayed for the people that crucified Him instead of enjoying the thoughts of them being tortured for eternity with burning and damnation. I am an atheist, but I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, especially not for something as trivial as believing something different than me. You’re a sadist. Sorry to have to point it out to you. I have a problem believing that sadists make it into heaven, if it exists (which it doesn’t).
  
  Report this comment
- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:46am
  CHRIS – for some Blazers, Hell is like reality TV for those in heaven. they look forward to watching “the gnashing of teeth” and such. some here are really excited to watch sinners burn. makes you wonder how they view their fellow humans here on earth.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:50am
  Excellent post, Chris. I am often amazed by how “glad” many christians are “on that day when the sinners stand before god, bow before ‘him’, and are passed judgement upon, sending them straight to the hell they deserve”.
  
  Actually, they are just LIKE the “martryres of Revelations”. They cry out for vengence upon those who ended their life. I wonder why they would still have such anger and hatred in them . . . WHILE STANDING IN GOD’S PRESENCE!!! That just shows you that the bible was a human invention, . . . one where they were angry at Rome, angry that they were on the outs, and wishing “their god” judging them.
  
  Just so you know, . . . standing before an unforgiving and haughty god, . . . before summarily sending them to an eternally lasting punishing fire, . . . JUST because they didn’t believe YOU [christian] is the very height of injustice! I shouldn’t have to explain why.
  
  Report this comment
- holy ghostbuster
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:51am
  @ LUV2BFREE – that’s very compassionate of you, much like your compassionate god.
  
  Report this comment
- biggreenboo
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:55am
  Pay attention ChrisD… He didn’t say he was a Christian… He didn’t say Atheists would receive eternal damnation… and he didn’t say he hates Atheists.
  
  So quick to jump and defend agaist something that doesn’t exist… as you say.
  
  Report this comment
- lildrummerboy
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:58am
  @PhillyAtheist-please don’t lump all christians into some sesspool that wants to watch people burn….
  @getLife- where does mother nature come from?
  
  Report this comment
- Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:01pm
  If you don’t belong to God through Jusus Christ, you belong to Satan the god of this world. Either way you belong to some god. Satan will destroy and abuse his followers in the end laugh as they die on this earth with no eternal life. Yes you have been duped by satan and don’t even recognize your situation. How foolish you are.
  
  Report this comment
- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:13pm
  LILDRUMMER – i’m not. i understand that this desire is a fringe element in Christianity. that’s why i was careful to say “for some Blazers”. Christians in general don’t upset me, it’s this element, largely from born-again or many Evangelicals, that i find disturbing.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:27pm
  @BigGreenBoo
  “Pay attention ChrisD… He didn’t say he was a Christian… He didn’t say Atheists would receive eternal damnation… and he didn’t say he hates Atheists.
  
  So quick to jump and defend agaist something that doesn’t exist… as you say.”
  
  First, he references GOD and Jesus, which would logically lead one to believe he is a Christian. Second, as a Christian, he knows that the ‘judgment we (atheists, as he references in his OP) will receive’ is eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell, whether we beg and grovel for it or not. Third, if this is what he ‘can’t wait for,’ then it is also logical to assume that he has no love for atheists, which isn’t Christ-like, and hate is the opposite of love, which is what is also easy to surmise from his post.
  
  Your literalism doesn’t pan well here, but your attempt to defend your brother in faith is noted… it just lacks any insight, truth, and generally sucks to anyone of any moderate level of intelligence.
  
  You are right about one thing, though. I do jump to call out something that doesn’t exist. It’s a damnable thing, really. It’s like watching someone doing something that you know is detrimental to them… you have to say something, even though you already know they are too dense to listen. Character flaw, I suppose… but I can’t help myself.
  
  Thanks for the positive comments from Philly and others.
  
  Report this comment
- GETLIFE
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:43pm
  LILDRUMMERBOY: Perhaps I should have said “Father Nature.”
  I was just making fun of PHILLY who was making fun of those who pray to God.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:25pm
  Yo Philly:
  
  If a person is not born again they ARE NOT a CHRISTIAN. Scripture says you MUST BE born again .
  So , in all due respect to you most truely born again christians make the attempt to speak with atheists like yourself to warn you of hell, not wish for your demise.
  
  Report this comment
- Cesium
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:53pm
  From the Blaze writer on money and individuality without faith: “…theoretically, cause one to become more consumed with the here and now and less concerned with life after death.” Another great example of the ignorance on the side of Christians who can’t even conceive of how Jews live and practice torah without concern for the afterlife. Living your life with concern for the afterlife are perspectives Muslims and Christians share in lock step. Being more concerned with the here and now and what you do in life “for life” whether you are rich or poor is the corner stone to Judaism and Jewish perspective. Jewish and christians may be brothers in peace and some shared religious laws (not all) but not in thought.
  
  Report this comment
- Cesium
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:54pm
  @4truth.. If scripture told you to go jump of a bridge would you?
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:19pm
  Yo Cesium:
  
  For someone who would seem to posess the intelligence you do that is a lame statement and a most obvious answer. You are certainly “stubborn’ in your own beliefs as you walk on sinking sand.
  I stick to scripture … and I don’t compromise it nor apologize for it … and the fact that you would mock it, I thank you …for your very mockery proves it’s truth … but then hey, it’s just scripture that says so …
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:24pm
  Another Cesium:
  
  Christian and Muslim DO NOT share “lock step” their beliefs on eternity … not even close. Futher the Jews will come to understand Jesus as savior as do the christians. They certainly do not at present … this will change. But again, why listen to me I just state what scripture states.
  
  Report this comment
- Cesium
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:43pm
  @Truth, I walk on the ground, living where I do, quicksand is not a problem. Let’s take a look at what you said in your point. I mocked scripture… That is true! good job! next…My mocking of scripture proves it’s true? hmmm What is true? that it predicts to be mocked, therefore, check! people mock it so thus it must be true? do ya see the flaw in that argument?
  
  “Christian and Muslim DO NOT share “lock step” their beliefs on eternity ” I did not say they shared lock stop in their beliefs ON eternity, They are lock step in being “concerned” about their afterlives… I don’t give a shizz thought about my after life.. jews hardly bother making any assumptions about what happens when you die and we don’t live our lives concerned with that question…we certainly have our folklore but we don’t abide by any dogma on the matter.
  
  Report this comment
- Cesium
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:58pm
  @truth.. and you will come to understand Zeus is the one and true savior! This is Sparta!!!!
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 4:03pm
  Yo Cesium;
  
  You are correct about your statement on eternity … I stand corrected.
  Which has more value … a bank account of $80.00 or $80,000,000,000.00 dollars
  No I do not see a flaw if I “predict” what a responce will be and it is as I said. That would lend credence to the truth of the “predictor” would it not?
  And I didn’t say it was quicksand …good day
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 4:08pm
  Yo Cesium:
  
  Dag … and here I thought is was America. Boy, have I been punked!
  
  Report this comment
- Cesium
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 4:42pm
  @truth,, would you bet your life that America would still exist if the Athenians had not been the first civilization to create democracy? devoid of monotheistic influence, the first democracy comes from polytheists who established a system that was the birth of “western civilization” This western world eventually lead to America so if you’re one of those nuts who thinks the constitution is wholly constructed from the bible, you best get your education on son! The christians and persians/muslims were partly responsible for destroying age old polytheistic civilizations. Welcome the Dark Ages… A system of voting for leadership by and for the people is undeniably Greek.. I should have said “This is Athens!!!” Then we monotheists (really christians) come over here and, again, massacre all the polytheists!!
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 6:38pm
  Yo Cesium:
  
  “Son” hey … well ok then pops, or would you prefer old man. Sorry, ancient of days is already taken.
  I believe the truth points to the constitution being constructed by men that followed the bible.
  As far as the other bunny trail … it’s not rabbit season … have a good one
  
  Report this comment
GETLIFE
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:45am
“The problem is that those that claim we are a Christian nation mean it in terms of America being as founded as Christian republic in the same way Iran is an Islamic republic.”

This guy is clueless. But I guess it doesn’t matter because he has his undying faith in Mother Nature.

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- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:36am
  “This guy is clueless”
  
  He has made many statements in this ask an atheist series that shows he is totally ignorant on many subjects. He totally missed the meaning of Matthew 6:5-6. Jesus did not mean keep your religion to yourself or don’t talk about religion in public.
  
  There is no comment after America isn’t a christian nation in the treaty of Tripoli. It didn’t mean we are not a christian nation. He made a straw-man argument with the comment you addressed about America being a christian nation. When people say America is a Christian nation people don’t mean a theocracy.
  
  Report this comment
- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:48am
  That should have read there is no comma in the treaty of Tripoli.
  
  Report this comment
- GETLIFE
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:19pm
  Personally, I suspect that The Blaze knows this guy is kinda shallow, that’s why the let him represent atheists to their readers.
  OR… he really is the smartest atheist they could find…hmmmn.
  
  Report this comment
- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:46pm
  The problem with the atheist arguments against America being a “Christian Nation” is that they assume Christians mean that same as Muslims when they call a nation a “Muslim Nation”.
  Muslims wish their nation to become a “Muslim Nation” so that the government will install Sharia Law and enforce the Qu’ran teachings on all citizens. They seek a theocracy and a caliphate.
  Just like President Obama’s mother listed him as a Muslim while he lived in Indonesian so that he could attend school – only Muslims were allowed to be educated. This does not mean he was or is a Muslim but he was school there for 4 years and attended mosque and madrasa but he claims he was lead by Rev. Wright to be a Christian about 20 years ago, so take him at his word eventhough Wright’s version of christianity is messed up Liberation Theology – ie Marxism.
  Christian’s call America a “Christian Nation” NOT in the guise of setting up a theocracy or becoming a Protestant version of the Vatican but in meaning that our Founders, our first settlers, and our entire existence centers around the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The government is NOT Christian but the PEOPLE are and are thus GUIDED by service and obediance to the Will of God and strive to live their lives following the Bible, the Commandments, and the ultimate commandment given by Jesus – “love your neighbor as yourself” – the Golden Rule primarily.
  
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- colt1860
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:37pm
  @VRW Conspirator I agree. Well said. It’s Biblical Christianity, that is, the religion of Christ Jesus, that teaches peace, union, tolerance, respect, charity, and benevolence. And in that since, we’re a Christian nation.
  
  Va Bill of Rights, written by Father of the Constitution (Madison), Father of the Bill of Rights (Mason), states, “That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that IT IS the MUTUAL duty OF ALL to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”
  
  George Washington, the Father of our Country, gave the following General Order to his troops, “The General most earnestly requires, and expects, a due observance of those articles of war, established for the Government of the army, which forbid profane cursing, swearing and drunkeness; And in like manner requires and expects, of all Officers, and Soldiers, not engaged on actual duty, a punctual attendance on divine Service, to implore the blessings of heaven upon the means used for our safety and defence.”
  
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The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:39am
This topic is already won, the only thing left to do is quote mine. There are thousands more quotes that prove the founders were closer to puritans than secularists, the only problem is SOME people on here are too lazy to respond.

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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:00pm
  @VRWConspirator (#2)
  I said that claiming non-existence to be existence is a logical fallacy. You counter with my inability to believe in a number of theories without pointing out the obvious; they are correctly labeled as theories. No Christian says, “Well, based on my theoretical belief in God,” because to them, God’s existence, however unquantified and unquantifiable, is taken as fact. I actually do give some credence to the ‘theory’ of God, but only as a theory, and not a likely one. This is because I recognize that *gasp* I do not know everything. I just think that there would be more evidence of His existence beyond a tattered book, some magic stories and nearly 2 millenia of bloody history in His son’s name. Hence, I dismiss it. I mean folks wrote about unicorns, too… and I don’t believe in unicorns.
  
  Even amongst the theories you listed, they did not just pop up out of nowhere and gain any following or interest without something to plausibly connect the idea with potential reality, and most do rely at least on some form of ‘testing’, right? I’ll bend to the physicist here. Moreover, just because there are holes (HA!) in Hawking’s black hole theory doesn’t mean scientists discount Hawking as a charlatan or idiot. Instead, they investigate, test how and when they can, and formulate new hypotheses to test and advance our line of thinking on a given subject, no? I’m pretty sure that’s how the scientific method works, or is supposed to work anyway.
  
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phillyatheist
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:32am
religion represents our species infantile need for explanations. as more and more things get explained there is simply less need for religion, at least to further that end. it will likely continue to exist for centuries as a social and civic fabric, but will continue to diminish in importance as people decide they have little need for the ideological dogma associated with religion.

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- GETLIFE
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:56am
  Here’s one for you: Uh… you don’t need ideological dogma to be religious. That’s just the dogma of your typical atheist organizations. But you just keep on believing what they say, after all, you must be beyond that “infantile need for explanations.”
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:06am
  GET – i still need explanations, but i turn to a source that provides good ones – Science. best part about it, there’s no need for worshiping, no services to attend, and the tv programs that do some of the explaining have pretty pictures. better than looking at some guy hanging from a cross. how morbid.
  
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- GETLIFE
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:22am
  Only the Catholics do the cross thing. Your definition of religion seems very constraining.
  Yeah, science is great too– ever changing, like Einstein’s Theory of Relativity which is now in question–through scientific research. One of my physics teachers once explained how he’d become more and more religious throughout his scientific career– not less and less.
  
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- COFemale
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:28am
  On what doctrine do you use to determine your moral code? Do you follow societies rules or do you determine your own right and wrong?
  
  Science is not exact. It changes everyday, thus can’t be relied upon. It is a theory portrayed by man, who is flawed and not perfect. Thus one can say, that his “science” is flawed and not perfect. Science is only the explanation we have at the time, based on what we know. Science can’t be exact and true until it finds out what we don’t know.
  
  This is where God comes in, he knows what man does not know and therefore can say what should be for our own good. You feel that you are “all knowing” and above God. That is a true sign of arrogance. You can’t admit that there is someone greater than you, someone who created you. You are just a coward when it comes to God.
  
  Admit it, there is no one greater than YOU.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:43am
  GET – “Your definition of religion seems very constraining.”
  
  perhaps, i was raised Catholic so that’s what i’m most familiar with. i suppose that’s good to keep in mind.
  
  COFE – i don’t turn to Science for moral understanding. i have values based on how i was raised, and what i’ve observed in my life. a belief in God in unnecessary to have values. if it helps you that is fine. but to say that since i do not that i cannot be moral is insulting and untrue.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:40pm
  @COFEMALE
  
  Determining right and wrong, for me, came from life experience, study of philosophy, the acceptance of the non-aggression principle, and recognition of property rights. As a tiny example, rape is wrong for two reasons (in this small example): first, it is the initiation of force/violence against someone else, which is morally reprehensible, and second, it is a violation of the victim’s property right of self. This is an extremely simple explanation/parlayance of what I’m speaking of, but for brevity’s sake, it will have to do.
  
  Science is not exact, or not all of it is exact… but I’d say being able to calculate distances/weights down to billionths of a fraction, and predict results of an experiment based on the application of knowns, unknowns and other criteria in conjunction with existing, proven scientific laws, it makes the scientific method (at least) much more preferable to mysticism and ‘faith.’
  
  You presume that God, or non-existence, is existence, which is, of course, a logical fallacy. In ever other area of your life you depend on reason and logic based on all data, input variables, experience and stimulus to your senses. Yet in the instance of religion, you defer to the most primitive explanation conceived by man tens of thousands of years ago to explain the ‘unknown’, and then make the assumption that we think we know it all. We don’t. Neither do you. We just bend to reason/evidence over something as archaic as religious faith.
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:02pm
  Please, you say you turn to Science, in what way? enlighten us with you scientific background, education, degrees, work. Seriously. Since you say you base all your decisions about the workings of the universe on Science, we need context. Same with your moral code, if you were raised Catholic then you were raised with a Christ-God centered set of morals, ethics, and values. Have you made substantial changes to that moral code other than just saying there is no God and the Bible is man made? Or were you “enlightened” in school or by your own research that you could keep all the values, moral, and ethics but didn’t need the God thing because “religion is just the opiate of the masses?”
  
  For me, since I asked of you, I am like Get’s Physics teacher. In fact exactly. I am a Theorectical Physicist. I am a Roman Catholic, like you were raised. I teach. I am also a Constitutionalist, a strict Constructionist, and walk the line darn near exactly between conservative and libertarian. I have a BS – Physics and a MA Ed. I am also a business owner. In the over 30 years I have spent reading, listening, working, and researching in all subjects ranging from Auto Mechanics to String Theory, literature to ancient history, and everything in between, the one underlying theme that ties it all together is that the more I learn/research the more CERTAIN I become, there is a God and Jesus Christ is our Savior..
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:18pm
  @Diamond
  
  God’s existence is a logical fallacy…really..wow…by that rational, that something can not be proven with data and logic, then you must not believe in the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Macro Evolution – usually confused with the Natural Selection (Darwinism) and the Theory of Micro Evolution (adaptation), String Theory, major portions of Quantum Mechanics, parts of Special and General Relativity, and a whole host of other scientific research and experimentation. Many of these things are PURELY theorectical which means there has NEVER been an experiment other than a mathematical mental exercise to give them any validity other than just stating “the math says so.” So why couldn’t you at least give the same credence to the “theory of God.”
  If as you say, you do everything based on the logic and reasoning behind things, then read “Mere Christianity” by C.S Lewis and “the Screwtape Letters.” BOTH are philosophical LOGIC arguments in favor of the existence of God and the Divinity of Jesus of Nazereth.
  Granted, this presuposes that you have an open mind to the idea that your disbelief in God and Christ might be wrong, otherwise you are just as closed minded in your faith – Secular Humanism or Atheism- as any other fundamentalist Islamist or Christian zealot who uses that faith to inflict violence, terror, or subjegation on another person or different viewpoint, different opinion.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:25pm
  VRW – my parents had different faiths. my father was Jewish, although largely secular. much of what my parents held as values i retained, but much i reject. we all develop our own moral code, though much is indeed derived from parental values. i suppose i could thank their religious background for their healthy attitudes, however, being non-religious i feel i can be every bit as effective in teaching a child how an ethical person behaves. i just don’t think that one negates the other.
  
  as far as my background in science, i’ve been a fan of nature since childhood. in adulthood, this interest has been furthered by reading and watching science programs. i’m not sure why this is important though. do i need a degree to be scientifically literate? furthermore, i don’t assume that Science can be a guide to life, only that it offers better explanations for some big questions, such as how we got here and what our place in the universe is.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:27pm
  @VRWConspirator
  
  I’m not sure, but I assumed your comment was to me, so I’ll answer.
  
  First, if the personal, educational and professional credentials you list are true, then they are quite impressive. You should be proud of your hard work and success. I have a Bachelor’s of Science in Liberal Arts in the discipline of East Asian linguistics; Chinese Mandarin, to be precise. I am a graduate of the Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center at the Presidio of Monterey in California and will pursue a Master’s degree in Philosophy, focusing on logic and argumentation. I was never raised Roman Catholic… I was brought to church as a Baptist as a child, and my mother took us to church sporadically after I turned 8. I am a voluntaryist; or as some call it, an anarchocapitalist in the Nozick/Rothbardian branch of libertarianism.
  
  I did not make substantial changes to my moral code as an atheist, but I observe morality differently than I did as a believer. Claiming that you need God to guide your efforts to treat others as you would like to be treated, and use only God/Christianity as reason/justification or the ‘real’ impetus toward this life approach is, quite frankly, beneath a person of your intellectual caliber. If you aren’t willing to accept my reliance upon science and observable data/input/stimuli (in other words, real, evident stuff) just because I do not have a BS in Physics like you (or some other Science degree), then you discount my humanity.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:38pm
  Yo Atheists: I thought athesist believed in the “science” of evolution that believes in survival of the fittest …?
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:54pm
  @ Philly.. world view is everything and how you were raised shapes you world view. Raised goes beyond just parents but also includes schooling and peers. Your parents , even of mixed faith, even not practicing, still held a view that was based in the faiths of their ancestors. Which brings up the problem with linking morality, ethics, and values to what we deem in our own mind to be right and wrong without any anchor. If you had been born into an atheistic anachistic world view, you would not see a problem with “might makes right” and “by any means necessary” to achieve your idea of success in the world and with government. The fact that people since the dawn of time have believed in superior beings and more importantly the last 5000 years of the God of Abraham and the monotheistic Judeo-Christian ideals, have shaped the world to ideas of morality and ethics to the point now where we can even have people that claim to be atheistic and accept them.
  America is specifically in line with this morality and ethics of Judeo-Christian history. Even in other Western Judeo-Christian civilizations, the American ideals never arose. Simply look at an American atheist and a European atheist – more violent, radical, hate filled, and intolerant.
  
  Why? Because America IS grounded in the Judeo-Christian morality and ethics, that Europe began to walk away from 200 years ago nearly, as are American atheists.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:55pm
  4TRUTH – it’s not so cut and dried. for example, some new research:
  
  “Baboons, like people, really do get by with a little help from their friends. Humans with strong social ties live longer, healthier lives, whereas hostility and “loner” tendencies can set the stage for disease and early death. In animals, too, strong social networks contribute to longer lives and healthier offspring—and now it seems that personality may be just as big a factor in other primates’ longevity status. A new study found that female baboons that had the most stable relationships with other females weren’t always the highest up in the dominance hierarchy or the ones with close kin around—but they were the nicest.”
  
  there are evolutionary advantages to socialization. natural selection is not just “survival of the fittest”. it often works in ways that are counter-intuitive.
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:08pm
  @ChrisDiamond
  
  first…that note wasn’t for you..the one after it was..but that is okay. and i have no problem accepting that you wish to only believe in what you have data/input/stimuli to support. however, as I posted in another response to you, if you only believe in the “real” evidence, I believe you mean physical by that, then you are missing out on a wealth of knowledge that has NO physical, real evidence other than a mathematical calculation and formula and a thought in the mind of a researcher or carpenter or patent clerk.
  
  Seeing as with the whole world’s mental power focused on the questions of how and why we got here for the last 8000 years or so…we have still only been able to reduce the known universe down to 3 primary forces/equations and 4 Laws: Gravity, Conservation of Mass/Energy, and the 2 Laws of Thermodynamics (which are the biggest problems for the Big Bang and Evolution by the way).
  
  There comes a time when even science breaks down and can not explain what happens. The most ardent atheist researcher says “we just haven’t figured that part out yet but we will” while the more agnostic/deist researcher might be open to say “well that was part that God did.” The researcher that fully believes in God says “that is evidence and proof of God.”
  The problem is that pure atheism ignores the tenant of Science that there are no absolutes, even with God’s existence.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:45pm
  Yo Philly:
  
  So, are you are telling me that you adjust your lifestyle according to the studies of animals and that your beliefs change?
  
  Here’s one for you way before “your” studies …
  “But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air and they will tell you:
  or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you.
  
  That’s from what some consider the oldest book in the bible … Job 12: 7-8
  Sounds like God through Job tells us about the correct way to understand “science”.
  Do you have ANY idea how many things in our world today are through this very principle of observation. Ever see a plane …. probably the most obvious example.
  
  Ever hear about the rinos and the elephants …?
  
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Rufus.Cornpone
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:16am
Another buck weenie atheist

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thibx
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:16am
not only is he stupid to be an atheists but he is stupid on history.

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lala76
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:13am
I have a real problem with anyone claiming to be an atheist citing scripture to me. If you don’t believe in a God then you have no right to point to God’s word as your justification, or a rule for me to follow. We see who is the real hypocrite!

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:19am
  The term “god’s word” is your [christians] title given to your idol [the bible].
  
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- lala76
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:32am
  Nice. Glad to see you atheists are consistent in your attacks on others’ PERSONAL beliefs. It is MY GOD’s word and you really have no place saying anything about it. If you don’t believe in MY “stuff” then don’t use it in an argument against me. It only shows your lack of solid proof or reasoning, which clearly demonstrates your intolerant and stupid mind.
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:36am
  LALA – how about an Atheist using the words God or Jesus Christ? i say it whenever i stub my toe or hear a Republican speak. is this ok?
  
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- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:49am
  Well then you are a big hypocrite, Philly. Just be sure not to stub your toe around city hall, or else you’ll get a hefty lawsuit from your friends at FFRF
  
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- phillyatheist
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:58am
  CAT – i know, but i can’t help it. it’s part of the vernacular. at least when i hear someone sneeze i just say “bless you”, but even that sounds religious. old habits, i suppose.
  
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- SquidVetOhio
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:15am
  @PHILLYATHEIST
  
  What you are actually doing is blaspheming the name of your Creator and you will answer for it.
  
  But, I want to help you out. Two things you can do:
  
  1. Repent and accept God’s forgiveness in Christ (I highly recommend this option. Less fire and brimstone)
  
  or
  
  2. Next time you stub your toe, yell “Allah dammit” or or better yet “F’n Mohammed”. And I will sit and dream about you stubbing your toe in Yemen.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:17am
  Lala76,
  
  It was the Bible itself that led to my disbelief… and not out of some young rebellion or anger with God, it was out of reading the words in English, Latin, ancient Greek, ancient Hebrew… Yea, I went on an almost 2-year study mission, 4-6 hours a day reading/studying, and in prayer almost constantly while I was awake. I fasted often, the whole bit. My prayers were for truth and discernment. I’ve known many, MANY Christians, and my pastor while I was going through this felt certain that my strong desire was evidence of some calling. We discussed/debated scripture and I know that my take on them shaped (or reshaped) some of his own, and those of other ministers/priests. So I know my understanding was on point, and my desire for knowledge and truth was pure, not for personal glory. Yet here I am, knowing that religion (nearly every single one of them and all their individual sects) are about little more than control of many by the few. With Christianity in particular, it’s about manipulation of people into a desired pattern of behavior through guilt and fear. “You were so bad that Jesus had to be tortured, nailed to a cross and die for you,” and we tell our kids that (albeit in a much more positive manner) from even before they’re old enough to understand. “God’s will,” is an excuse to avoid personal responsibility. And because we do know and understand the scriptures, we can tell Christians about how un-Christ-like they are. Y’all don’t like that. Surpri
  
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- lala76
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:36am
  @ Chrisdiamond: That’s great…FOR YOU. It’s still your opinion. I choose to believe differently. You still have no right to say I’m wrong. Why can’t you get that!? I love how you’re only tolerant when others agree with you.
  
  @ phillyathiest: Go for it. Your comment doesn’t even apply to my point. You can try again if you’d like.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:40am
  LALA, feel free to see you idol as “god’s word”. If it makes you happy, continue with that belief. Just don’t go on a mission to see how it was actually put together. Best you don’t.
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:47am
  Chris,
  I have seen 8 million atheist on message boards claim they have studied the bible and that is why they don’t believe. However, When they speak about biblical issues they are totally ignorant. The entire Christian faith is predicated on Jesus’ resurrection and the notion that Jesus was who he said he was. What is your alternative hypothesis on Jesus and the Resurrection?
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:53am
  “an atheist citing scripture to me.”
  
  The problem is he was totally wrong in his interpretation of the scripture he cited. Jesus was not saying keep your religion to yourself or stay out of the public square.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:59am
  @LaLa
  “@ Chrisdiamond: That’s great…FOR YOU. It’s still your opinion. I choose to believe differently. You still have no right to say I’m wrong. Why can’t you get that!? I love how you’re only tolerant when others agree with you.”
  
  Actually, I have the right to say whatever I like, so long as it is not slanderous or libelous. There’s even a protection of that natural right in the 1st amendment of that Constitution thing. So the “why can’t you get that,” question from you should be reconsidered based on the facts I just posted in response. You have the right to disagree with my assessment, as you obviously do. And that’s fine. It’s sad though, to get into these kinds of discussions with people who are Christians and discover that I know the Bible, the foundation of their serious religious conviction, better than they do. Many atheists experience this, and we feel horrible about it. Why? Because so many Christians are willing to devote their lives (at least in word) to a theology they don’t really know or understand with any measurable depth.
  
  I am more tolerant than your short-sightedness will allow you to give me credit for. I would, never even attempt to infringe upon your right to believe and practice your faith however you chose to. My only demand, and a just one it is, is that your theology, and Muslim theology and Judaism, Catholicism, Mormonism, et al ad infinitum stay the hell out of public policy. This way, both of us could be happy. How’s
  
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- holy ghostbuster
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:00pm
  @ KSTRET – “What is your alternative hypothesis on Jesus and the Resurrection?” That it didn’t happen. Horus, Attis, Zoroaster, Glycon, Heracles, Dionysus, Romulus, Odysseus, Krishna, and Buddah, are all historical figures that predated Jesus and have similar stories, such as virgin births, born on Dec 25th, performed miracles, etc, etc, etc.
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:23pm
  H.G.
  “That it didn’t happen. Horus, Attis, Zoroaster, Glycon, Heracles, Dionysus, Romulus, Odysseus, Krishna, and Buddah, are all historical figures that predated Jesus and have similar stories, such as virgin births, born on Dec 25th, performed miracles, etc, etc, etc.”
  
  The notion Christianity borrowed from Greek Mythology demonstrably false. This claim has been debunked over and over again. That argument doesn’t hold any water.
  
  A god physically having sex with a woman or someone being created out of a rock isn’t a virgin birth.You are simply parroting what you read on atheist web sites. It shows that you are totally ignorant on the subject.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:35pm
  k . . and it is equally as absurd that “Mary was a virgin who was made pregnant of the holy spirit”. I’m glad you’ve recognized that. I’m also glad that you recognize the ridiculous notion of “the sons of god having sex with the daughters of women because they found their **** nice looking, creating a race of giants that had to be destroyed by a world wide flood.” Glad we’re on the same page.
  
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- pdw
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:37pm
  There will always be those who do not believe in anything except themselves. Ask anyone of them if they believe they are humans are the greatest beings in the universe. If so then who did all this work so we are able to live here? The ooze theory? As for the founders of our Constitution were men of faith. At one time to study law they used the Bible as a guide. It was many years later that Blackburn was written. Even the schools at one time used the Bible to teach. Why some like to leave parts out of history for their own benefit is understandable as either they want to or do not know any better. So with the American Indians, Greek law and many other guides our Constitution was written after much planning and thought to make this country a better land to provide freedom from government. The more a person learns to love, not just for sex as this is only in marriage, but to understand all mankind. To come together for a better and greater world. Then and only then can they understand God thereby making this a much better world for all as this is what he has planned for all his children. Love is the greatest gift God gave his children, for from this all can find answers for all the problems in this world we live in.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:52pm
  @K
  
  My alternate theory on Jesus and the resurrection? What does it matter? You dismissed the mention of how Christianity borrowed from earlier religions, yet you did not provide any proof that these ‘theories’ were debunked. If you do, of course it will come from a Christian source, and not a secular source, which discredits any argument you would make about it anyway. Surely you understand this. Examining the similarities between these stories is enough to spark the notion that maybe Judaism and Christianity ‘borrowed’ from others. We see it in the real world with knock-offs of retail items. Why should this be any different? “Let’s model a story after this so we can demand 10% of people’s money and control them through guilty and fearful manipulation.” Given the history of the church, this is quite plausible indeed.
  
  I would love to discuss the Bible, Jesus, prophecy, the dispensations, the ‘fall of man’, the hypocrisy and ridiculousness of the story of man’s creation, the apocalypse, the bloody Kingship of David, Go’d propensity toward jealousy, rage, murder (and other baser human traits) as much as you like. And I’ll do it knowing already that you will dismiss my knowledge of scripture because I disagree with you. Say when.
  
  And one more thing LaLa… argumentation requires the examination of the foundation of one’s argument (in your case, the Bible). If it bothers you that atheists throw scripture at you, then learn the Bible better and how to argue
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 5:54pm
  Deav,
  The issue is whether Christianity borrowed from Greek Mythology. This is a claim that internet atheists make all the time. It is also a false claim. You response is a red herring.I thought atheists valued learning and education?
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 7:30pm
  “My alternate theory on Jesus and the resurrection? What does it matter?”
  
  Seeing that Christianity stands or falls on who Jesus was and the resurrection and you claimed that your in-depth study of the bible lead you to atheism, I would think that you would have come up with an alternative hypothesis
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 7:35pm
  Chris,
  “You dismissed the mention of how Christianity borrowed from earlier religions, yet you did not provide any proof that these ‘theories’ were debunked. If you do, of course it will come from a Christian source, and not a secular source, which discredits any argument you would make about it anyway. Surely you understand this.”
  
  First of all, you are making the genetic logical fallacy. Just because a Christian presents historical information doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  
  “Examining the similarities between these stories is enough to spark the notion that maybe Judaism and Christianity ‘borrowed’ from others. We see it in the real world with knock-offs of retail items. Why should this be any different? “Let’s model a story after this so we can demand 10% of people’s money and control them through guilty and fearful manipulation.” Given the history of the church, this is quite plausible indeed.”
  
  Your response is indicative of someone who hasn’t looked into the issue. You are getting your information from atheist web sites. This would also make you guilty of special pleading. On one hand you are dismissing something because it might come from a Christian source but on the other, you are accepting the atheist claims and not dismissing them because they are coming from atheists.
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 7:41pm
  A god physically having sex with a women and getting her pregnant is not the same as a virgin birth. That is what the majority of the examples are. The closer the parallel is to Christianity, the material either found after Christianity was formed or it is a false claim. For example,Mithra is often cited as evidence of Christianity borrowing from Paganism. Mithra came from a rock not a virgin.
  
  Secondly, the argument fails because Christianity came from Judaism not Paganism. They didn’t hold paganism in high regard. Jesus being the messiah came from the OT not paganism.
  
  Finally, the argument presupposes the Christian notion of Jesus was a fictional character. Most scholars who are not Christian concede that Jesus was a historical figure, he was crucified, he died, and the apostles believed that he was resurrected. They also concede that Paul believed that he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus and experienced a conversion. That shoots the theory of Christianity plagiarizing paganism in the foot.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 9:13am
  K, . . . some were. . . . others weren’t! There HAD been pre-christian gods that were a product of “a god” and a human female. It is an absurd notion as much as “the virgin Mary” or “the Nephilim”. But let’s not get bogged down with them. There is AMPLE ammunition against “a god who has a son” myths. It is what you would find when humans make up a story. A “superman” who can “do no wrong”. For example. . .
  
  I am strong. That other guy is stronger. God must be the strongest!
  I can see pretty far. My buddy can see things further away than me. God must be able to see EVERYTHING!
  I’m a pretty good person. My brother is a LOT more moral, if I’m honest. God must be ALL moral.
  
  ad nauseum
  
  “We are flawed, but can be made better”. People actually worship the human form with their “beliefs”. It’s why the bible had to include “we were made in god’s image”. A “god” anthropomorphized. . . . . . with “eyes”, “ears”, “nostrils”, even a “back side”. Ask yourself why? When you understand the narcissism that has permeated humans for thousands of years, . . . you will have your answer.
  
  And at the end, . . . . an eternal reward. . . . based solely upon. . . . . “I made the right decision”. Note the “I”.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 12:51pm
  @KStret
  
  Probably need two posts for this, but I wanted to respond after seeing your response just now.
  
  “Seeing that Christianity stands or falls on who Jesus was and the resurrection and you claimed that your in-depth study of the bible lead you to atheism, I would think that you would have come up with an alternative hypothesis.”
  
  My alternative hypothesis is that Jesus was a man that got tortured and nearly killed by an angry mob of idiots. If he went to a grave or the tomb, he was likely stolen out of there and given medical treatment. Like other texts in India, I believe he may have left and went that way to live out the rest of his days. But I do not believe he was God incarnate because I do not believe in a God.
  
  Better?
  
  “First of all, you are making the genetic logical fallacy. Just because a Christian presents historical information doesn‘t mean it’s not true.”
  
  I did not do well at framing my point. I apologize. You are correct. It would be difficult for either of us to convincingly argue our points on Christianity since we each believe different sources. What we could do is support our thesis by additional evidence, or by citing empirical errors in the evidence presented.
  
  The difference between us, perhaps, with regards to the information we rely on for the formation of our opinion is that I have studied both sides deeply and intently. When I was studying the bible, I believed the Bible wholly. More on the next post.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 1:01pm
  @KStret (2)
  
  “You are getting your information from atheist web sites. This would also make you guilty of special pleading. On one hand you are dismissing something because it might come from a Christian source but on the other, you are accepting the atheist claims and not dismissing them because they are coming from atheists.”
  
  But you’re discounting that I studied the Bible as intently and deeply as I say I did because I disagree with you and cite other sources for that disagreement. I have read and absorbed information from both sides, and chose the empirical over the mythical.
  
  Virgin birth, pre-cursors of Christianity etc…
  First, it is physically impossible in human beings. Second, how does a spirit do any impregnating exactly? Can that be measured and quantified beyond the colorful story of a charlatan? Many have contended that Jesus was born in the spring time, yet we celebrate his birth on Christmas, 25 December… a Pagan celebration. The Hebrews in the OT also called the Persian conquerer Cyrus the Great a Messiah, just not THE Messiah…
  
  Jesus as a fictional character…
  I believe he existed, but as a man without any divinity and certainly not as God, or a God incarnate. Paul’s conversion does not shoot the claim of Christianity plagiarizing Paganism in the foot because the story/myth of Christ’s resurrection had anywhere from 10-35 yrs to reach Paul. Paul was obviously clever, and could have carried the myth forward on his own from there, and
  
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RIGS
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:01am
Just another cloud watching liberal moron who thinks because he made money all of a sudden becomes a relegion expert.

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Mike Benton
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:57am
This is so stupid! Go to any city or town in the US and count the century old churches. There is one or two in every town, and in the larger cites there is one on every block. Who built them?

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- holy ghostbuster
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:01pm
  People?
  
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PIGSWILLNEVERFLY
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:46am
Day 5 of 30 days of prayer: from George Washington Prayer Journal, Mr. Vernon: O eternal and everlasting God…increase y faith in the sweet promises of the gospel, give me repentance from dead works, pardon my wanderings, and direct my thoughts unto thyself, the God of my salvation; teach me how to live in they fear, labor in thy service, and ever to run in the ways of they commandments, make me always watchful over my heart, that neither the terrors of conscience, the loathing of holy duties, the love of sin, nor an unwillingness to depart this life, may cast me into a spiritual slumber, but daily frame me more and more into the likeness of thy son Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in they favor, I may in thy appointed time attain the resurrection of the just unto eternal life bless my family, friends, and kindred.
Jeremiah 29:11-13 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

There can be NO liberty without the Living SPIRIT of God’s Grace, Jesus Christ. All others are walking dead and the liberty they have is to choose SIN and do wrong without an inner guiding Light. These individuals are the source of all our earthly negative LAWS, which Take Away Liberty. Satan’ tools are FEAR, DOUBT and UNBELIEF.

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- Winedude
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:55am
  Sin is an imaginary disease created to sell you an imaginary cure. Sorry but that’s the way it is…
  
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Chromo200
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:43am
And when we all loose our moral compass, he will step in and become supreme leader.

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- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:53am
  You mean a moral compass that says all humans are born worthy of an eternal torture and have to accept a human sacrifice in order to avoid that torture?
  
  You mean a moral compass that said we should honor Abraham’s faith when he tried to gut his kid?
  
  You mean a moral compass of a man who offered his daughters up to get raped by a mob?
  
  You mean a moral compass of a man who got drunk and fell asleep nude and when his son walked in on him, he cursed him?
  
  You are also then freely admitting you wouldn’t be a moral person without your God. I’m sorry you feel so low about yourself.
  
  I choose to think that if you actually had to witness someone being tortured in hell for an eternity, that you would scream out in horror and no longer worship this so called “loving God”
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:15am
  Moderationisbest, . . . great post, friend.
  
  There are MANY places that are far from ACTUAL morality, in the bible, for someone to be hanging “moral compass” on. I can only believe that people who state the bible as “a moral compass” haven’t actually READ the bible wholey. If you rely on a pastor or a “daily devotional” for your “faith”, I can see how you would believe it [bible] to be a “moral compass”. They must not have read about the “bitter waters”, “Hebrews killing all that breathed”, “sin of giving birth, and which sex was more sinful”, “how to take slaves amongst conquered nations”, “Jepthah”. . .etc.
  
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- NHwinter
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:29am
  DeavonReye – Do you atheist have any quotes from the NT that you can try to use to tell us how awful God is? What do you use as your moral compass? Yourself?
  
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- NHwinter
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:44am
  ModerationIsBest – God doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell. People, by their actions, put themself in Hell. He came to offer us a way to forgivness and salvation. Hard to believe Someone loved us that much. The Creator of all things came to save us. Are there no consequences to an Atheist for actions?
  
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- SquidVetOhio
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:25am
  “You are also then freely admitting you wouldn’t be a moral person without your God. I’m sorry you feel so low about yourself.”
  
  You’re actually correct. Proof positive of that is atheists. The reason American atheists have some shred of morality is because you’ve been blessed to live in an nation founded and governed by a vast majority of Christians. You should be thanking us that you don’t live in the cesspool of third world atheist countries riveted by war, disease and poverty. But, instead you people are trying to take us down to the same status. Godlessness is a cancer to society. Thankfully for you, our God commands us to try to heal the cancer instead of biopsy.
  
  Our morality will not be judged against that of our neighbor. It will be judged against God’s morality which is sinless. And, without Christ’s righteousness that is gained by faith, you will found wanting.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:33am
  @NHWinter
  
  “DeavonReye – Do you atheist have any quotes from the NT that you can try to use to tell us how awful God is? What do you use as your moral compass? Yourself?”
  
  I love you pick-and-choose Christians. Many of you do not even understand the theological significance of the OT, NT and how Christ relates to them both. The same people will say that a scripture in one bible isn’t the same as the same scripture in another Bible, when the one meaning doesn’t fit to their liking. You either take the Bible as a whole, or you don’t take it at all. If you disregard the OT in your Christianity, then you discount the purpose for which Jesus lived. You discount his life, his death and supposed resurrection. Yet you toss out this NT challenge as if it’s legitimate?!? What a freakin’ joke.
  
  The NT need not be cited specifically to declare the glaring immorality of judeo-Christian faith because Jesus did not come to undo the law, but to fulfill it… right? So I’d be careful about disregarding the entire impetus for the torture and murder of Jesus while you still claim to be a Christian.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:37am
  NH, there are many places that show a ‘less than moral” god in the new testament. I’m surprised you haven’t found them.
  
  Squid, it is true that those raised in this country have the benefits of SOME religious ideologies. But not all are. I’m still glad to live here. . . over third world countries, most of south america, and especially muslim controled nations.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:41am
  Yo Mod:
  
  As always, you put yourself as more righteous then God and know better then Him, and you clearly demonstrate a complete lack of understanding scripture. But then, that is exactly what happens when people do as you do and exactly what the book you mock says you would do. Every time you post you prove the truth of the very thing you attempt to discredit !
  
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- COFemale
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:47am
  I guess you atheist missed the point of the New Testament and God’s New Covenant. Well of course you did, because you don’t read the Bible nor understand what transpired between the Old Testament and the New Testament. From day one when Adam bit into the apple, he knew good and evil. Also, had Adam ate the whole apple he would have died. Why do you think we do not eat the seeds of the apple, which ironically is used to grow new apples?
  
  Atheist think that once you die that is it. You become worm food. They do not believe you have a soul or spirit. It is the spirit that either goes to hell or heaven, not the flesh. See this is what you atheist don’t understand. Your whole body does not go to hell, thus you refer to hell in the wrong context. People who do evil, where should their spirit go?
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:10pm
  Moderation,
  
  Why are all the examples you cited morally wrong? Under atheism, morals are totally subjective and ultimately illusionary.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:51pm
  Yo Kstreet:
  
  Good to see your posts … how true, atheists have their “own personal” morals as individuals per their own statements. Which means it’s a free for all and no one has any right to determine anothers morals, but I’m sure they would say that the murder of a fimaly member is unmoral. If it is all self determined my morals say it’s ALL GOOD … that includes killing if it suits me …
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:12pm
  For a user name like 4truth2all, you sure have no understanding of the actual truth. I task you to find one credible atheist who would see murder as subjective. Not everyone needs a “sky daddy” to keep them in line. I don’t believe in your god, . . . but that doesn’t make me a murderer. I’m rarely even mean to another person. It isn’t in my nature to be that way. I’m not a good person due TO any deity. I am good because it is the right way to live with others. I hope they treat me the same. It’s really quite simple, really. If you NEED a “sky daddy” to keep you in line, then by all means, keep believing in it.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:16pm
  COFEMALE has reduced her argument to apple seeds and a simple dismissal of an atheist’s reading of the Bible, which has been proven untrue. She claims that we simply do not understand what transpired beteen the New and Old Testament, but in truth, I would be that she has a skewed understanding that many of her Christian bros and sis’ would debate her about (just not in front of us heathens).
  
  So let me ask you this, COFEMALE (and anyone else who’d like to chime in):
  
  God creates us in His image. He creates us with a weakness to be beguiled and disobedient, evidenced by Eve and Adam being beguiled by Satan and disobedient. Satan did not create himself. God made him, and God allowed him to come to earth to tempt our disobedient flesh. As a result of falling victim to our own natural tendencies put in us by the Creator, after being tempted by a tempter of unearthly talent, sent by the creator, all flesh from there on was immediately condemned to hell UNLESS we ask forgiveness for being humans (as if we had a choice), accept JC into our hearts as our Lord and Savior, and get dunked in water. In order to give Jesus such power though, he had to be tortured, crucified, die, and be raised from the dead to offer this salvation. Meanwhile, God puts this saving truth in an obscure land full of illiterate people and yet it is the ONLY way by which all of humanity can be reconciled to God?
  
  WTF? Talk about being set up to fail…
  
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- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 8:15pm
  @NHWINTER
  
  Your God created a system in which humans would be born worthy of an eternal torture.
  
  Your all knowing God created a system knowing that a human sacrifice would be necessary to allow humans to “avoid” this punishment.
  
  Your God is either hilariously inept or horribly evil.
  
  I always love it when people say “You don’t understand”
  
  No I clearly do understand, I just came to a different conclusion you did. Just because my conclusion is different, doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
  
  @kstret
  
  My whole point was that subjectively to me, the morals that you Christians present is immoral. Am I saying that it’s “absolute?” of course not, because it’s my opinion.
  
  If you can look at everything I posted and say “yes, that’s moral” all I can do is disagree with you and go from there.
  
  I don’t think you’re going to get punished eternally for disagreeing with me, and I wouldn’t want that way.
  
  As I said above, you people think we’re all born worthy of an eternal torture and that I’m going to suffer that torture unless I accept that a human sacrifice was necessary on my behalf.
  
  I don’t think as low of you as you do of me. I think that if you had to witness such torture, you would no longer call your God “loving”
  
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- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 8:45pm
  @COFE
  
  Jesus’s entire teaching is evil.
  
  “Love me or go to hell”
  
  That is what the whole New Testament and Jesus’s supposed teaching boils down to.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 7:19am
  Yo Mod:
  
  I think that you would find that we do not hate or dislike you. I certainly do not. I harbor no ill feelings toward you. I pray for you. Most God fearing christians if honest, probably struggle with the severity of eternal punishment, and that it does seem “extreme”. I do. But, I see it from my low place and not from a place of perfect holiness. So, I let God be God and allow Him His righteous justice. And come judgement day we will ALL recognize it as neither severe nor extreme.
  How about this … maybe the severity of it (in part) is meant to turn you from it, just as you might warn a child about a certain punishment.
  You see it backwards, which is what I keep trying to say to you, but you refuse it. Jesus offers His hand and in your anger at Him you refuse it. Because of His perfect goodness He has a burning hatred of sin that IS JUSTIFIED. Take His hand (trust) and be saved and then you will understand. But you do not take His hand because you DO NOT WANT IT.(the truth) It’s not Him it’s you !!!
  
  If you respond I will explain something else to you … good day
  
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- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:10pm
  The things he says are some of the most horrible I have ever witnessed….I dread every faith topic because of him. It truly burns my eyes and stabs my heart when he posts these nasty things.
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 8:02pm
  Mod,
  “My whole point was that subjectively to me, the morals that you Christians present is immoral. Am I saying that it’s “absolute?” of course not, because it’s my opinion.”
  
  Once again, atheism dictates that morals don’t exist. The view that murdering for fun vs murdering is morally wrong are the same. It’s like saying comparing one person who likes chocolate ice cream to another who likes vanilla.
  
  You position is self contradictory. Morals don’t exists. That is to say, the notion it is objectively wrong to murder for fun doesn’t exist. You turn around and say the notion it is objectively wrong to murder for fun doesn’t exist but it’s wrong to murder people for fun.
  
  What baffles me is atheists come out of the woodwork when a story like this appears on the site and make the exact same argument they could not address in the last story. Atheists bash Christians essentially calling them stupid but keep making an argument that they know is fallacious. That is the definition of stupidity.
  
  The Christians that you bash because you are so insecure about your own intelligence aren’t stupid. They are ignorant of the empty arguments of internet atheist activists and they don’t know how to engage atheists. The difference between stupidity and ignorance is stupidity is the inability to learn.
  
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- KStret
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 8:06pm
  “Jesus’s entire teaching is evil.”
  
  You don’t believe in evil……there is no such thing. If morals do not exists neither does the concept of evil. You are equivocating. Morals don’t exist but X is evil?
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 1:19pm
  @KStret
  
  Atheism does not dictate that morals do not exist. Though you may not agree with Rand as a philosopher (Objectivism), she, an atheist, spoke extensively about morality from a philosophical perspective, founded on 2 primary moral principles: self-ownership (property rights), and the non-aggression principle. She is just 1 example. It is your argument that is logically fallacious. You’re asserting that morals cannot exist w/out God, or some concept of a holy, higher-being to instill them in us. We make no such claim, but still recognize and strive for morality and virtue.
  
  Your morality is subjectively applied: you do not apply your own morals in assessing God’s actions. You claim to love peace, and that murder is wrong, but refuse to recognize God breaking His own commandment regarding killing when He sent David in to massacre every living creature in towns and villages, or killing millions by His own hand in the deluge as immoral. We, on the other hand, think killing other human beings is morally wrong, unless done as a last resort in self-defense.
  
  “The difference between stupidity and ignorance is stupidity is the inability to learn.”
  
  But with Christian ignorance, it’s more of a willful thing. Things don’t work out? It wasn’t God’s will. 20 million kids starve to death each yr while you’re being Christian, God willed them to die a horrible death for His own mysterious (but holy) purposes. With Christianity, ignorance is convenient as an excuse
  
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- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 2:35pm
  This is directed to Chris.
  
  http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
  
  Don’t respond before reading it in it’s entirety. Oh, that’s too much? Your walls of text above and below beg to differ.
  
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NHwinter
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:42am
God has to be removed for a Socialist/Marxist/Communist agenda to be implemented. We greatly outnumber the unbelievers. There is a consequence to removing God from America. You can try to remove the word God from our sight, but you cannot remove Him from our vote, actions, and heart.

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- MrBigBillyB
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:58am
  Guess where these came from:
  Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. …Therefore, To promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
  
  That’s right, the Constitution of Massachusetts 1780. Now let me see…who wrote that one again? Once again you are correct. John Adams. The first Vice-President and second President of the United States.
  
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Detroit paperboy
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:41am
How could anybody look around at the mountains and the animals and the flowers and the trees and think this was all an accident……….in the middle of nowhere , surrounded by dead cold planets……I think this is heaven…..I’m just happy to be here !!!!!!!!!!!! Thank God.

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Bohump
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:37am
If you had ever learn’ed To Read Bozo, … You Would know that this Nation, was founded on God and the Bible ,.. With your last Breath, You will See Your Mistake… (Bless You)

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:56am
  Yes, BO, . . . which is why they had slaves at the time. Biblically okay.
  
  Other than slavery, . . . which of the laws were BASED upon biblical scripture. Please list them. Do not include simple ones that were around way before Hebrew religious texts were scribed, like “not killing or stealing”.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:25am
  I hesitate to even address this intellectually dishonest garbage, because once it starts it never stops.
  
  When you think of the word slave you have a mental image of black people picking cotton, but slaves in Biblical times were indentured servants – more like butlers and maids of today.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:33am
  berean, . . . I wasn’t talking about THAT type of “slave” amongst other hebrew people, and for a short time. Do you not know of the actual slaves that were taken from conquered nations? They were life long, and offspring became their slaves as well. Virgin women were “taken as brides”! It really WASN’T like that of the blacks. It was worse!
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:32pm
  @ Deavonreye
  you wish to spout off about morality and a moral compass
  well how about the tenant of …..forgiving all debts after 7 years….. or purposely not harvesting your entire crop and then letting the poor come and glean from the fields all they could carry…..forgiving a transgression 7 x 70 times (a medaphor for NEVER holding back forgiveness)
  and yes there were slaves..in all nations in all times…some for financial reasons -freed after 7 years, see above, some from captives during wars – most US slaves were captives of one tribe in Africa that sold them to traders for goods, some due to feelings of superiority of one nation over another.
  what is your point? I don’t see you quoting the Founder’s words on abolishing of slavery, even those that owned them, nor their desire to change the institution and laws but knew it had to be done slowly. Many believed as Robert E. Lee, Washington, and Jefferson did that eventually slavery would die on its own as it had done in the USA around 1830′s with the stopping of the slave trade, laws stopping the breaking up of slave families, and laws allowing for slaves to be freed upon the owner’s death (which openned up more problems with the freed slaves not having food, shelter, or jobs which is what Jefferson was afraid of and why he left all his land to his slaves).
  Freedom, Liberty, Free Will – ENDOWED BY OUR CREATOR! Dec. of Ind. says so..read it!
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:48pm
  VRW, . . . why use “spout off” in your response. Do you do that to make YOUR statement appear to be more valid?
  
  My main point was to those who believe biblical slavery as “just a small glitch, and helped people sometimes”. What of those virgins that were taken [when all their families were killed]? Does “letting hebrew servants off in 7 years” make up for the forced wifes of other cultures, suffering the loss of their families, and now amongst strangers?
  
  I’m glad some of the early founders worked to end slavery. HOWEVER, . . . . they never should have had any to begin with. Period!
  
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mattmo79
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:36am
Looks like mostly millitant atheist psychobabble!

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contkmi
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:29am
I think this guy has a logical fallacy somewhere. Just because the Constitution doesn’t contain a founding principle of Christianity doesn’t mean the country is not, nor were it’s founders, Christian. One doesn’t necessarily follow the other.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:34am
  Several of the founders were deist.
  
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- NHwinter
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:45am
  DeavonReye – People keep trying to say they were deist, but they weren’t. If you read their writings you will see that that claim is false. They did not want “one” religion, but their faith was in Jesus and God.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:53am
  I’ve seen different. How curious.
  
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- NHwinter
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:17am
  DeavonReye – Please site those that say they are deist. There are volumns of writings from the Founding Fathers that all say they rely on Our Lord and God. If you don’t believe in God, why is it so important for you to remove him from the history of America? How does it hurt or take away from you? Are you grateful to be living in America, the country that has the most freedom in the world?(for now anyway) What would be accomplished by removing God from our history and life today? If 80% of Americans believe in God why would you want to take that away from them? We are not taking your unbelief away from you.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:56am
  Doing a simple google search brings up several links to those who were Deists.
  
  As for your other statements, . . . I’m not working to remove “god” from history. It happened. So what! Fervent belief doesn’t equate to that belief being real. It is no different than Islam and their nation’s beliefs. Just the efforts of men. . . and them “putting words in a god’s mouth”.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:31pm
  Yo Deavonreye:
  
  Do you believe everything you “google”?
  Also, a deist still lived and believed in what the bible taught.
  A deist is someone that does not believe Jesus to be God …
  
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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:39pm
  @ Deavonreye
  
  of the 58 men that are typically called “the Founding Fathers”, 55 of them belonged to an established denomination of Christianity, what they called “religions”. Yes to the Founders, a “religion” was a denomination. They actually did not view other faiths as true so put them under paganism, including Islam. They also viewed Judiasm, while a faith, as a lesser version of Christianity because the Jews refused to believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Those are the facts in their historical context.
  
  So when the Founders spoke about faith, they were exclusively talking about faith in God and Jesus Christ. Deist means organized religion (denominations) were bad and doubt of miracles and divination of Christ existed. Franklin was a member of the Unitarian Church but was the most “deist” of all the Founding Fathers.
  
  The problem is that people like to pick and choose quotes from different times during the lives of the Founders. We also like to suppose that if they were Christian, they must believe what we do today in the same way as our denomination believes. Even the denominations from the 1700′s that exist today believe entirely different doctrines in some cases. We also like to view the Founders as “perfect” like they never doubted their faith or had moments of crisis or changed their minds.
  
  Absolutism is a flawed thinking strategy for atheists that cling to logic so much.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 2:07pm
  Oh, I would never make the mistake of seeing the founders as “perfect”. They weren’t. What would be interesting would be to know their actual beliefs and compare them to many of the more fundamentalistic christian denominations to see where they actually match.
  
  Thankfully, they didn’t start the nation as “a specifically christian nation”, and only allowed those who believed in the christian faith entry. It seems that they were more interested in the freedom of people than they were [even] the “first commandment”. For that, I am thankful.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:12pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  The truth is you seem to miss my point … simply put ,YOU determine for yourself what is “GOOD” … WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT THAT IS WHAT IS RIGHT >>> and what tells you murder is wrong, or stealing, or rape, or homosexuality is Ok?
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:23pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  It was their belief in Christ that substanciated the idea of a free nation. And it is the belief of atheism that will not allow you to see this. You atheists prove this at your continued attempts to remove the ten commandments that the founding fathers said were the basis of continued blessing to a nation ( America). You in effect seek the destruction of the very nation you wish to enlighten … but then it is hard to see in the dark .
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 8:53am
  4truth2all, . . . I’m agnostic. However, I lean more towards atheism because it proves itself over theism. You misstate the definition of the word. Atheims isn’t “a belief”. It is a rejection of your “god” claims. Do you not see the difference? Let me put it this way. YOU are “atheist” about all the other “gods” and “goddesses” that have ever been invented by man. Atheists just go one “god” further.
  
  The Founding Fathers also had slaves [even IF they were working to overturn it]. They still had them, thus thought it okay at the time. You act as though everything they did was “gold”. They were just men. So, I don’t care if they had some bias for biblical materials. Many people DID, back then. Doesn’t make much of “the 10 commandments” automatically true. But let me be clear. You are free to have your beliefs. Believe that a “supernatural agent is helping you”, if that makes you feel better. Don’t push it on those who do not see YOUR claims as valid.
  
  Humans have the ability of empathy. I know what it is like to be abused. I know what it is like to be stolen from. I can empathize with others by being able to draw on my past experiences and not treat people how I wouldn’t want to be treated. So yes, I determine what is good. On some levels, the judicial system does. What YOU seem to have done is . . . let someone from 2,000-4,000 years ago determine your ‘right and wrong” for you, then claim it “god’s morality”.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 12:57pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  Thanks for the get back … I really wish you said something true.
  First … please look up the meanings of the words; belief, faith, trust, confidence … you lie to yourself …YOU HAVE A BELIEF SYSTEM … you “reject” because of your belief ….geeeeeee.
  
  NEVER said ANYWHERE or ALLUDED to the perfection of the founding fathers …
  
  Again, I NEVER pushed or push my belief on ANYONE … I do defend it, I am called to share it, you have the right to reject it and BELIEVE, because of your “beliefs” as you will.
  
  Final … your standard is yourself …problem is most of this is instilled in ALL men worldwide.. you attribute it to evolution and personal experiences … so why then is not everyone different. I say these universal “understandings’ are from God.
  Scripture makes the claim of the source being God … I do not personally do that
  Atheism in no way is superior to scripture … you self determine that, that you are good and have no need of it.
  “Do unto others as you would have them do to you” does not come from your “goodness” it comes from God but you lay claim to it because YOU claim your own goodness.
  You actually STEAL from God and then claim it as yours … good day
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:19pm
  4truth2all, . . . I can’t help it if you see “my rejection of your claims” as “a belief”. I really don’t see how you get there. You claim “a supernatural agent in the universe”. Seeing no evidence of it, I reject your claim. That isn’t “a belief”. It is a stance based upon your lack of credible evidence of this “god” you attempt to promote. If there was actual credible and verifyable evidence of THE god of the bible, then I would have more to go on, and may [then] agree it is real. That’s how I operate. I do not accept the word of another human who makes an extraordinary claim without VERY extraordinary evidence.
  
  As for “standards”, it is obvious that different cultures promote various “standards”. Many of them promote “standards” that they claim are from THEIR “god”. Your scriptures DO state them coming from “a god”. That was the opinion of that ancient writer. Again, . . .without offering credible evidence for that statement, is has no more power than those who place it at the door of a Hindu deity.
  
  As for “having no need for the bible”? Absolutely. I am quite moral enough without those writings. Moreso in regards to many cases and stories! No question.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:42pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  You reject MY beliefs because of YOUR beliefs …how more plain and simple can it be !!!!!!!
  The evidence for the “supernatural” as you refer to God is enormous … you reject it based on theories, assumptions and presumptions and that is again simple truth …you have NO absolute proof … but you say you need it to belief in God but you belief in evolution without it … because absolute proof is to see it happen … did I miss it!
  
  I’m not talkin about “religious” beliefs … I refer to murder, rape, stealing, etc… good day
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:54pm
  4truth. . . . state this “enormous” amount of evidence. I welcome it. Only then will I be able to actually SEE if it is credible or not. Just saying “the proof is enormous” isn’t an argument.
  
  And, one more time, . . . I don’t reject your belief based on my “belief”. I reject a god claim when there is no credible evidence to support it.
  
  And now, it seems we are going around in a circle. I require credible evidence to your god claim before I can agree with it. But, for the sake of argument, which of my “theories, assumptions, or presumptions” have I stated here that you’re talking about. I don’t recall stating any of these. How would you know what my “assumptions or presumptions” were, anyway?
  
  And I’m not after “absolute proof”. I am after credible evidence, not “because I believe it firmly” statements from another fallible human being.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:57pm
  “I’m not talkin about “religious” beliefs … I refer to murder, rape, stealing, etc…”
  
  An interesting comment. These things aren’t “christian princples” only. Many religions share these characteristics. Maybe. . . . they were put in religious texts BECAUSE they were things “not to do”. Not because “a god said they were wrong”.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 4:36pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  We’re not going in circles … we never went anywhere …or = no progress
  Evidence …please see Romans 1:18-20 …your science in which you put your beliefs or your FAITH has not disproven ANY of that = theories based on assumptions and presuppositions not based on proven facts !!!!!!!! and that is just a fact !!!!!!!!
  
  And finally …. atheists don’t follow “religious texts” so why do they also agree that one does not murder, rape, steal, etc… can’t say lying cause you seem fine with that …are you also fine with murder when it suits?
  
  Answer those questions directly … no other garbage, otherwise me be done.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 8:53am
  If we never when anywhere, it is because you don’t pay attention. More on that below…
  
  Please. Romans 1:20??? What we know about nature has nothing to do with “assumptions”. If YOU have the right information [that can also be tested by other scientists], then by all means, give your evidence, . . . win a prestigious science award. What are you waiting for???
  
  I hope you know that earlier texts [than hebrew texts] set up laws. The bible stories weren’t the first!
  
  And here’s where you didn’t pay attention, and why I feel no reason to continue with you. You said:
  
  “…can’t say lying cause you seem fine with that …are you also fine with murder when it suits?”
  
  If you actually read my post about this, . . . I said that people SHOULD tell the truth. But a person who has lied about something isn’t summarily “evil”. That “Way Of The Master” crap is pure junk. . . preying on people with weak minds on the streets. I only WISH Ray Comfort would meet me on the street. He has no more credibility and serves to “convert people” based on one of the best “snake oil salesman” tactic around.
  
  And to answer your VERY silly question, . . . there is no time when murder is good. . . . IF it follows the pure definition of “murder”.
  
  So, . . . once again. . . provide your evidence to the scientific community to show them how they are wrong. Look forward to hearing/seeing the results of that.
  
  Report this comment
grickm
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:26am
I guess this atheist is completely ignorant of the influence of Christian principles that suffuse the Constitution. What’s his agenda?

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- floridareader
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:58am
  Those people haven’t read our Constitution: “…done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven…”.
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 12:20pm
  “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth
  Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven
  and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof
  We have hereunto subscribed our Names.”
  
  Anno Domini, “In the year of our lord” was a typical method of expressing the date. In no way does the use of this and the Gregorian calendar make us a “christian nation”. It was simply a traditional method of dating doc_ments, not a declaration or establishment of a religion.
  
  The Blaze eats words with C U M so I cant say Doc-u-ments…
  
  Report this comment
- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:11pm
  They could have just said A.D. then. Or A.C.E. like on secular college campuses. But they did neither.
  
  Wonder why, hmm?
  
  Report this comment
I Aint PC
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:23am
It is funny how the atheists are trying so hard to remove God, but claim not to believe in God. If they truly did not believe in God, then any mention or reference to him, should not bother them. I am not bothered by “nothing”.

In the Declaration of Independence, the founders wrote “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The atheists are also endowed by the Creator with the same rights as those that believe in the Creator. The Creator-God, loves the atheists the same as those that believe in Him.

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- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:34am
  My parents created me.
  
  Report this comment
- wvernon1981
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:36am
  I you actually believed in God, atheists wouldn’t bother you.
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:49am
  Yes, all of that was so self evident to our founders that they wrote about life, liberty, freedom, pursuit of happiness……while owning other human beings.
  
  Report this comment
- kickagrandma
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 10:36am
  @ MODERATION~~~ not so! As much as you don’t want to think about it, do. Your parents had sex more than once, kiddo. The time you were conceived was GOD’s gift to your parents and to you. People don’t make babies. GOD DOES.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:10am
  Wow, Kick. . . . . . . just . . . . . wow!
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:38am
  [People don’t make babies. GOD DOES.]
  uh hahaha…hahahahaha…AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
  
  And the devil makes condoms, right?
  
  Report this comment
- Charles Bronson
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 1:40pm
  God makes babies? Then your god must also abort babies and order their deaths.
  
  “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” –1 Samuel 15:3
  
  http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/qt/miscarriage-rates.htm
  
  And to think, you still worship this Hitler-esque genocidal god.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:31pm
  Careful there… you’ll choke on your own mockery.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 3:48pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  “Wow kick …. just …wow.”
  Other then the act of intercourse I bet you have no idea of the”process’ of what takes place to create a child and the impossibilities of it being evolution … please tell me and when you are done telling me in detail I will correct you if necessary … because it really is WOW !
  
  Report this comment
- Charles Bronson
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 6:44pm
  Yeah…why would anyone answer that knowing full well you will just attempt to disqualify any incomplete or unsatisfactory answer it with a “myth”? If god makes babies so does pixie dust. Bask in your own ignorance, we’re not joining you.
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 8:17pm
  @KICKAGRANDMA
  
  As someone else said
  
  If God creates babies, then he also creates babies and gives babies to women who knows will get an abortion.
  
  So therefore, God obviously isn’t anti-abortion or he would stop giving babies to women who he knows will get an abortion.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 7:30am
  Yo Charlie:
  
  The point is I AM NOT ignorant of the “SCIENCE” and that YOU are and your respone proves my point either way you respond … but as usual you name call … most impressive
  
  Is this empty responce what you base your soul on … good luck …
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 7:41am
  Yo Mod:
  
  At what point is the PERSON responsible for their OWN actions and decisions ?
  
  Report this comment
- Charles Bronson
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 12:09pm
  As usual? Name calling? Sorry, you have mistaken me for someone else. Take your meds. No one gives a damn about your loaded question you yourself have no answer for other than complete and utter nonsensical superstition. The burden of proof lies with you and your outlandish stance that babies come from “god”.
  
  ModerationIsBest, if god gives us babies then god also gives us babies with mutations and genetic disorders. He also gives us influenza, e-coli, tumors, cancer, flesh eating bacteria, syphilis, etc etc.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:05pm
  Yo Charlie:
  
  “take your meds” … this is not meant as an insult …LOL
  Further … I’m not talkin about superstitions … I’m talkin about the process – the “science” of it
  …. you insult yourself selling yourself short… congratulations
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:07pm
  No need to respond. Charles says it all. And still I will say, “wow”!
  
  Report this comment
- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:14pm
  For those wondering why evil exists,
  
  http://godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html
  
  Don’t respond until you’ve read it.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:25pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  Do good people lie ?… you can’t answer the question cause you don’t know.
  Charlie said nothing of value, and neither I nor God needs to prove anything
  However ,that truth smacks you in the face everyday and you deny it …
  
  no need to respond …
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:35pm
  Uh, . . what “truth” are you talking about?
  
  And yes, . . .good people can lie. What’s your point?
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 1:50pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  So it’s ok for “good” people to lie ?
  Lie = lier = not good … unless you are a “good lier”
  
  The truth of creation … which is what we are talkin about … or were … good day
  You don’t know the process of birth do you …?
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 2:08pm
  Yo The Cabrito Goat:
  
  Read the post … well I skimed some
  The really short version … the bad is meant to push us toward the good(God)
  not call the good bad …
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 3:08pm
  Were? So, you’re going to leave the topic after posting a HUGELY vague notion of “truth of creation”? The actual FACTS of the natural world are quite known. . . .as is the process of birth. Or, does your god even give birth to the THOUSANDS of field mice in Africa being born nearly every day??? Consult an OB/GYN if you’re confused.
  
  As for your [seemingly Way Of The Master] reply to a person who lies, . . . yes, a good person CAN lie. A person who lies isn’t automatically a liar. If habitual, then they need help, sure. But you can’t put the title “bad” on a person who may tell a lie from time to time. Should they tell the truth? Absolutely!
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 4:17pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  You have my vote for contortionist of the year.
  
  Why can’t you just say — I don’t know ?
  What the H do mice have to do with babies ? ….easy
  
  Report this comment
- Pontiac
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 5:09pm
  “Never argue with an idiot, they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
  I’ve learned to ignore 4t2a, he is a mental midget. Excruciatingly so…
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 8:01pm
  Well thank you Pontiac,
  comming from you I take that as a complement.
  You ignore me for another reason and we both know that …
  still praying for you though … you have a good one too…
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 4, 2012 at 8:40am
  Hmmmm. . . my post to your comment is gone. I’ll repost….
  
  Human life cycle is the same for many species. The biology is a WELL known fact. And what is ALSO a well known fact is that “a god” plays no role in the mechanism. You should consult an expert in the field.
  
  Now, if you have some sort of “gotcha” that you were expecting me to say, . . . go ahead and post what you’re wanting to say on this topic and we can move forward from that point.
  
  Report this comment
DEMOCRATS.ARE.EVIL
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:21am
Let’s all get together and find each atheist a girlfriend…so they’ll quit screwing with us. It’ll be hard…most atheists are slope-shouldered goobers…but no task is too great if it saves America.

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SquidVetOhio
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:17am
” It does not. Further, it contains no references to Jesus or the Bible.”

Factually incorrect. It was signed “In the year of our Lord”. Clearly a reference to Jesus Christ.

ATHEIST FAIL.

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- commonsensefreethinker1
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:38am
  @squid
  Oh, just like people decided to add or subtract 1 hr. for daylight savings, totally stupid!
  The ignorant and delusional decided to start time over again. Really?? by the way it’s BP for before present not BC.
  
  Report this comment
- SquidVetOhio
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:05am
  What the heck did you just say? Did you proof read that nonsense?
  
  First of all, what in the world does daylight savings time have to do with anything?
  
  Secondly, BP is an oil company. BC means “Before Christ”. BCE means “Before Common Era” started by the Jews to avoid confessing Jesus as Lord since AD is short for the Latin phrase “Anno Domini” or “In the year of our Lord”.
  
  The Constitution does not use any of these. It says “In the year of our Lord” with the L in Lord in caps. Signifying the deity of Jesus Christ.
  
  If I can educate you further, I’d be glad to.
  
  Report this comment
- commonsensefreethinker1
  Posted on October 3, 2012 at 10:31am
  @squid
  just trried to make a simple fact point, but obviously it’ts over your head if I actualy have to explain it to you. My simple answer for you would be: People who try to screw with the reality of time!! I don’t care who or what you are, you cannot change time. That includes “JESUS” Hope this will help.
  
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4truth2all
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:12am
Atheists live a life of denial … and so it continues

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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 11:06am
  I agree.
  
  There are no atheists in foxholes.
  
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cscregan
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:12am
George Washington said, “Let not someone claim the mantel of patriot who would remove religion and morality from government.” Lets see, believe a founding father and first president of the United States or some two hundred years later believe an atheist with an axe to grind I think I will stick with Washington. You sir are no patriot.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:13am
  Did you even read the article?
  
  Report this comment
- wvernon1981
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:35am
  One shouldn’t care what Washington said on what George Washington did. Arguments must be debated on their merit alone.
  
  Report this comment
DeavonReye
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:11am
Seems like a well rounded guy. I can agree with a lot of what he stated here.

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kickagrandma
Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:05am
No, you dumb s***. It’s taking our country back for GOD.
Just sit down and shut up. You’ve had your time loose out in the world. You and all the namby pamby wimpy no-courage souls are done, son.

GOD IS ON THE MOVE!

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- Sharon Rose
  Posted on October 2, 2012 at 9:33am
  Amen and right on Kickagrandma!
  
  Report this comment

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