Judge Sides With TX Cheerleaders: Ban on Bible Banners Violates Their Free Speech Rights
AUSTIN, Texas (TheBlaze/AP) — A judge says an East Texas school district policy barring cheerleaders from quoting biblical scripture on banners at high school football games appears to violate their free speech rights.
KFDM television in Beaumont reports that District Judge Steve Thomas issued an injunction allowing the Kountze (KOONTZ) High School cheerleaders to continue displaying such banners pending the outcome of a lawsuit about the matter. He previously granted a temporary restraining order allowing the practice to continue. The trial date has been set for June 24, 2013.
In this Sept. 19, 2012 file photo, Kountze High School cheerleaders and other children work on a large sign in Kountze, Texas. (AP Photo/The Beaumont Enterprise, Dave Ryan, File)
The school district ordered the cheerleaders to stop quoting Bible verses after receiving a complaint from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. The group says it received a complaint from an atheist attending a game who felt the school was promoting Christianity.
Republican Gov. Rick Perry and Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott have backed the cheerleaders.
This is a breaking news story. Stay tuned for updates.
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Related:
- Judge to Rule Today on Atheist Push to Ban TX Cheerleaders’ Bible Banners
- Texas Attorney General Announces He’ll Defend Cheerleaders’ Right to Use Bible Verses at Games
- Christian Cheerleaders Granted Temporary Restraining Order in Atheist-Led Battle Over Bible Verses at Football Games
- War on Football: TX School District Bans Christian Banners at Football Games
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Comments (214)
ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:52pmSince everyone here is so pro-free speech on the heels of your tremendous victory, I hope that a courageous atheist (or 100) in that neck of the woods will start coming to those football games with huge signs that say, “If God is real, He kills 65,000 children EVERY DAY through starvation!” Another one I’d like to see is “If God is real, then He is deaf to Christian amputees!” And another one I would love to see is this: “God loves you SO much that if you don’t love Him back, He will send you to burn in hell and misery and torture and anguish forever and ever and ever! Now THAT’S LOVE right there!!”
I find it sad and hilarious that you Christians demand the sanction of your religion by our government, like your relationship with your mythical daddy will die if you don’t get it.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:12pmI also hope to see Jews show up with signs saying “Jesus was not the Messiah,” and Muslims showing up with signs that say “Allah is the ONLY God.”
I wonder how staunchly Christians will support religious speech in schools then.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:13pmThere’s a difference between peacefully and unashamedly expressing or sharing ones faith and belief to others, and making a mockery of someone elses faith and beliefs out of selfpride and hate. What you’re advocating is for bullying to take place.
BTW, logic would conclude that if indeed we’re all guilty before God, and deserving of death and punishment, than it WOULD BE an act of LOVE for him to provide us with some form of redemption. And it would be even more loving if that redemption was provided by grace and not through our own works. And better yet, it would be the greatest act of Love ever if he himself emptied himself of his glory and dwelt among us and conquered death for us!
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:16pmYou’re a bully, it those are your true intentions. No Christian student in that school has said any of the things you’re advocating for. Religion or no religion, no school would permit what you’re promoting. Your attemps to twist this argument around are rediculous.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:28pmCOLT1860
Why should I not champion less popular religious groups (the likes of which I also disagree) exercising their freedom of religious speech? You all claim atheism is a religion, so I hope a religious atheist will exercise their freedom of free speech, as will the local Muslims and Jews. That you assume I mean for those groups to bully Christians tells me more about you than it ever could about me. I don’t advocate for anyone to bullied for any reason, and thus, Jews, Muslims and atheists should likewise not be bullied out of exercising their free speech. I just think the mountain of support here now for freedom of religious speech in schools will evaporate and be replaced with a hateful call for restriction on ‘those people’s’ rights to free speech. It fits with the general Christian hypocrisy.
You use a key word in your assessment of guilt and redemption: IF… IF we are all ‘guilty before God,’ it is because He designed it that way. You cannot get around this. And so, that He threw us a bone (by having his son tortured and murdered on our behalf) to avoid an eternity of torment, torture, pain, agony and ‘gnashing of teeth’ is of little consequence in the face of only being ‘damned’ in the first place because He made it that way. So, we are either damned anyway, or we are called (eliminating the free will nonsense) and can only escape eternal torture by accepting this Jesus he had tortured and murdered for us. Nice.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:31pmIt’s one thing to share ONE’S own faith, its another thing to mock some elses faith. What don’t you get?
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loyaldad
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:46pmHey Chris! You’re hubris knows no bounds. To abdicate man’s responsibility for “the Fall” and laying the blame at the feet of our Creator is the most blatant example of pride rising to the level of sin I’ve personally witnessed. You must be an Obama supporter due to your innate ability to lay blame at the feet of everyone else but yourself. Hope you dressed in layers, it’ll be warm where you’re going
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 7:58pm@LoyalDad
Imagine that: another Christian giddy over the thought of me being eternally tortured and in agony. You people are so unlike your Christ!
If your child walks out into the street and gets hit by a car while you are close enough to hold his hand and protect him, do you not take responsibility for it as a parent, or do you blame your child?
God made us susceptible to temptation. If we’re abiding by the Bible story, then this fact is indisputable. God created the devil, and said in Isaiah that He created evil. The devil is the king of tempters, and Almighty God loosed him on earth to tempt Adam and Eve, who were, essentially, children. God gives them a rule: “Do not eat the fruit of this tree or you’ll die,” which happened to be quite pleasing to the sight… itself a temptation. Then allowed the slickest tempter in the universe to come and tempt naturally gullible Eve, without so much as a cautionary intervention. The rest, as they say is history. What God essentially did was put them on a one-lane road with no way to escape, and send a speeding semi truck so wide it filled the road from side to side hurdling at them, and then blame them (and us) for them being killed by it.
And because they failed the test He designed (already knowing they would fail), he cursed the rest of humanity for eternity. This is somehow just to you?
And no, I am no Obama supporter. I think government is evil, and have evidence to support my thesis.
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alien-in-a-STRANGE-land
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:02pmsuch an angry young (man) ?
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:24pm@Alien
I know… LoyalDad is so angry he can’t wait for me to be in burning, torturous misery for eternity. I can’t even comprehend that level of hatred and anger.
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loneindividual
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 9:19pmChris…I agree that the Bible shouldn’t be quoted and used at football games.
We are a country that was established by Christians & Deists who considered the Bible as Holy Script.
You need to realize, that when forced to choose between American Christianity & Islam (ex the Catholic Church that Freemasons help build and then were ex-communicated).
The Crusades are still going.
In answer to your garbage regarding God letting children starve….
THEN THE SAME LOGIC CAN BE APPLIED TO YOU CUZ YOU HAVE POWER TO SUPPORT OVER 100 KIDS!
Seriously, this life is about developing yourself as an individual. If God did everything for us and showed his hand….we wouldn’t have Faith…which is essential is discovering things for ourselves.
What if God gave us all techology….we would have no more need for Scientists. EVERY NEED WOULD BE PROVIDED.
I’m sorry…but I’d rather not suck on the tit of God all my life….and I never want to suck on the tit of a Tyrant….cuz Government doesn’t produce Wealth…it only steals it.
You would rape, rob, & render Lady Liberty.
You’re gonna die & your life meant nothing….except to be an “Accuser of your Bretheren” and your Father.
Call God a Liar…and there is no saving you. How can he…when you won’t let him save your life?
GOD THE FATHER IS NOT A PROMETHEAN CHARACTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go read….and if you already know what I’m talking about…then continue your debauchery you Son of Satan (Father of
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Tractorboy
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 10:16pmCHRISDIAMONDMODERATIONISBEST, or whatever you call yourself or shall I call you Counselor, If you want to pull off your sharade you need to change up your phaseology more, because you just seem to come off as obsessed. So what is it? you work for the FFR? this how sharpen your wit for your cases?…….or counselor, is badgering the Christains your passion and hobby?……………. I guess even the devil needs a lawyer…..I still enjoy our discussions even though it ends up going in circles sometimes… I will pray for you God Bless
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 10:27pm@LoneIndividual
I will never be forced to choose between American Christianity or Islam, and wouldn’t choose either, as they are both vile fairy tales that make heroes out of villains, establish double standards for invisible men, and have been the basis for more hatred, bloodshed and immorality than most anything else in our history.
You cannot apply the same logic to me, a limited human, as you do an all-powerful deity who takes full credit for creating everything. That’s absurd. I could feed 100, He could feed them all, right? But He doesn’t, so who’s the real criminal? If He created everything, then He is responsible for the conditions that cause their starvation (lack of rain, arable soil etc). If He knows everything, then He creates these children knowing that they will die a death more miserable than either of us could possibly imagine.
I think God did enough, and if He exists, I am not particularly fond of him anyway. I hate racist, genocidal maniacs, and you do, too… but God gets a pass for his bigotry, rage, cruelty and genocide from you.
Technology…?
You say you don’t wanna suck on God’s teet for life, but aren’t you to praise Him for providing everything you have? Are you sinning?
I love liberty, but find it odd you projecting such nastiness toward liberty on me for disagreeing with you.
A fairy tale/non-existent entity hasn’t the authority or wherewithal to define my life.
Satan doesn’t exist, so I can’t be his son.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 10:32pm@TractorBoy
I don’t work for any such organization. I speak up and out against this crap because, despite being labeled by all of you as some immoral heathen, I have to read news of atrocities committed by Muslims in the name of Allah on one hand, and the murder of women and children by our ‘Christian’ government. Those horrific acts are partly funded by MY tax dollars and represent ME, as if I would in any way support acts so inhumane and barbaric, but which the majority of the Christians I have had the displeasure of dealing with here support wholly.
I’m not a fake. That’s my picture and my name. I have nothing to hide. I’m not an attorney. I’ll take you assuming so as a compliment (of sorts… I despise attorneys for the most part, but am fortunate to have a few friends who manage to be attorneys and are not also wastes of humanity). It must mean that, on some level, you see my arguments in an intelligent light, even if you disagree with them. I appreciate that.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 10:56pmI don’t believe in a God as you have stated. I’m sure you have dozens of verses to show such a God. They’re ALL out of context and made with your preconcieved notions and asserted with your bias opinions. Tell me, what would you do to a nation that kills their babies, has sex with their parents, has sex with animals, commits murder, steals the property of others, has affairs with multiple women while married, never takes responsibility to bring up their kids, make their daughters prostitutes, are drunk all the time and act viciously, are violent, are selfish, are greedy, are self righteous, are lazy, don’t like to work for a living, sacrifice other humans to the sun, eat other humans, kidnap, make faudulent transactions, have currupt judges, don’t execute exact justice, and do anything else considered wicked?
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Tractorboy
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:12pmChris, I noticed a lot of legal phases in our discussions, nothing wrong with lawyers, I like them when they are working for me, plus my wife works for them, and we watch a lot of Judge Judy whether I want to or not.
I can tell your intelligent, and well read, but wrong, no offence. I did see your Ghandi quote, we actually covered that sunday in our house of worship, about our unity, or lack of, as Christains, us Christains are a broken lot, and we know it, but sometimes when were on, Were on, and look at some of the great works that have been done. You talk about 65k dead do you have any idea how many people are helped around the world from people trying to be like Jesus, our church goes all over the world, water projects in Africa, help in Haiti, mission work in Costa Rica and on and on, all from our congragation est. 5-6k per sunday. Anyway got to go, we can pick this up some other time, got bible study early tomorrow morn. God Bless
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:13pmCOLT1860
Then you don’t believe in the Hebrew God Jehovah. Who are you to say that God’s own words are ‘out of context’? Isn’t that a convenient out when His own words prove my assessments true and yours to be some glowing fantasy instead of the reality He told you plainly of. As to your scenario, with only a few rather vulgar exceptions, you described the United States. But to entertain you, I would stay the hell away from that place, and prepare myself to defend myself should they get stupid enough to venture beyond their own borders and toward me. But I believe they would eventually kill themselves with that type of lifestyle. I’m pretty sure you’re discussing the ‘righteousness’ of God’s destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. But if memory serves, you stated that the annihilation of Native Americans by the US government under manifest destiny was just because they were not a moral people, and would have never established a Constitutional government (paraphrasing, but that was the general gyst), so your assessment of the righteousness of the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah means nothing to me. You have absolutely no moral grounds from which to speak on it, and I have absolutely no respect or regard for the moral opinions of someone who honors senseless slaughter (Native Americans) as good and just for any reason.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:38pmLOL. All I stated was, America doesn’t belong to Americans, nor did it belong to the Indians. The whole Earth belongs to God. He gives it to whomsover, and takes it from whomsoever. If he’s the Supreme Judge of the World, then I would think he has a say in what nations rise and which ones fall. You see, I’m consistent. I don’t apologize. You on the other hand, hold no solid beliefs but pure gibberish that changes and goes as much as the wind does. You use God’s word out of context, and grossly misinterpret it. You don’t understand squat, but insert your own bias preconceived notions. Your abhorrence and destestation of this nations is rediculous. If you truly don’t support our nation and can’t stand our history then leave! Your logic goes, How can you support and defend such a terrible God who has committed such horrible acts? Well, right back at you. Like many that trust in leftist ideologies and apologetics, you’re logically incoherent, and make hypocritical statements. How can you support and defend such a terrible nation that has committed such horrible acts? No one is forcing you to be a Citizen of this nation. Why haven’t you renounced your citizenship? You obviously don’t understand any concept of justice, war, evil, repercussions, consequences, international law, collateral damage, judgement, or accountability. I never honored the senselss slaughter of any people. In your ignorance, you’re confusing America with South America.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:42pm@TractorBoy
Thank you very much for your kind words. I sincerely appreciate it. I’ve mentioned it before, but I spent a great deal of time in intense study of the bible some 12 years ago. I didn’t come to these opinions or beliefs because I was swayed by some charlatan, or to be a rebel without a clue. As a Christian (at the time), I can’t tell you how horrible it was to come to these realizations, all the while praying, fasting and begging for some divine intervention, enlightenment or changed understanding. It never came.
I know that there are many, MANY good Christian people in the world. Not many of them here at The Blaze (sorry… just been my experience). And I know that many Christians do many great things to help people. I applaud that. I do not applaud the giant cathedral churches or palaces for God that riddle the landscape. I know they cost multiple millions of dollars, and that the money could have been better spent following Jesus’ teachings as opposed to building some monstrous effigy as His ‘house’.
I think, given the nature of our disagreement (both arguing something we cannot absolutely prove) that it is perhaps presumptive to say that either of us is out and out wrong. I think it is absolutely correct to say that we strongly disagree. I do wonder, however, if there is a person lurking or reading who could explain to me how my interpretation of the story of the fall of man is truly wrong. I think it has as much or more merit as any I’ve read
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:45pmHere’s what I posted before and I’ll posted again:
[I was quoting Matthew Henry here] “All who, without commission from God, dare to execute private revenge, and who, from ambition, covetousness, or resentment, wage war and desolate kingdoms, must one day answer for it. But if God, instead of sending an earthquake, a pestilence, or a famine, be pleased to authorize and command any people to avenge his cause, such a commission surely is just and right. The Israelites could show such a commission, though no persons now can do so. Their wars were begun and carried on expressly by Divine direction, and they were enabled to conquer by miracles. Unless it can be proved that the wicked Canaanites did not deserve their doom, objectors only prove their dislike to God, and their love to his enemies. Man makes light of the evil of sin, but God abhors it. This explains the terrible executions of the nations which had filled the measure of their sins.”
We as a nation will answer to God for our actions one day. I believe that God led us, a mostly religious and moral people, to the most bountiful land on earth, and blessed us with civil and religious liberty. That’s what our founders believed, and so do I.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:51pmCOLT1860
It must get hard, trying to twist your way out of discussions you can’t possibly keep up with. If you could, you would make relevant posts, instead of the drivel that you do. Now I know nothing of justice, evil, blah, blah, blah… and (assumably) all because I do not agree with you. I have, however, made no such baseless accusation against you. I don’t need to. You make yourself plain in what you say, but I don’t think you truly understand what it is you say, before you go tossing our ad homs, straw men and red herrings. Now you’re rewording your statement about the slaughter of Native Americans… but you’re direct and ‘don’t apologize.’ Nope. You just misrepresent yourself so you don’t have to apologize! Brilliant.
You know nothing of what I have done for this country, and I would wager that my contribution and sacrifice for the United States entitles me to as much (or more) ‘right’ to voice my criticisms of it than you have to insult me so moronically for criticizing it. And welcome to the ‘love it or leave it’ crowd! You supported Ron Paul? I call BS. If you did, you were a shameful statist member of that support group. I hope everyone knows it and called you out on it.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 11:56pm“I can’t tell you how horrible it was to come to these realizations, all the while praying, fasting and begging for some divine intervention, enlightenment or changed understanding. It never came”
Maybe it was because you were prideful and arrogant, and sought such wisdom for selfish reasons.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”
You never truly accepted or acknowledged the sovereign authority of God. I would bet you never truly humbled yourself before the throne of God, completely denied yourself, carried your cross, and completely made yourself available to serve those in need or want. Which explains your mockery of God.
“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts… But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone… Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.”
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colt1860
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:13amLOL. Ask anyone on here. They’ll tell you. I was a staunch defender of Paul’s candidacy during the primaries, especially on the Blaze.
I’ve answered all your questions honestly, all one million of them. YOU are the one that kees changing the subject and adding more dribble to your nonsensical hypotheses, one after the other. How did we go from talking bout you promoting signs that are hostile to Christians, to, discussing Native Americans? THAT’S ALL YOU BUDDY.
You see, I didn’t want to debate those topics YOU arbitrarily brought up for that exact reason. YOU INTERJECTED ALL THESE SUBJECTS TO AVOID OR DISMISS OTHER TOPICS ALREADY BEING DISCUSSED. I know your arguments and conclusions already. I however, don’t back down. So we’ll be here for eternity. The reason I say “leave” is because you’re promoting for our nation to be fundametally transformed. You don’t accept our historical heritage and foundation. You deny the concepts expressed by our founders. So, I say, if you want a truly “secular” nation, we have France, China, Cuba and North Korea. Choose one. That’s not to insult you, but to tell you that America has already been established under certain principles and values and doesn’t need to change to mirror the rest of the world. I did support RP (I have since 2000), and many on here, in the last primary, recognized my diligent research and dedication in supporting and defending our Constitutional Republic and national heritage.
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WonderintheVille
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:21amNo I don’t think that atheist are or have a religion! But that is their choice in the same aspect it is those childrens right to express themselves! By the way it is FREEDOM OF RELIGION, not freedom from religion! Our country was founded on Christian principles, if you don’t believe that or you don’t think that those principles are good enough for you, then move to China where they bend knee to a dead murdering pedofile, and get out of OUR country!
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bobdiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 5:47amGod doesn’t kill children, we have something called free will. Besides it’s Liberals who kill children. Read political commentary at: http://smallcraftadvisorychronicles.blogspot.com/
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 9:53amThere is actual evidence of the biblical god killing children, Bob.
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checkmate0831
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 9:55amStop the presses!! New Headlines, Chris Diamond is the one man in 2000 years that was able to debunk God, the bible and is sole defender of freedom.
I guess we can all go back to our regular lives now…
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The Jewish Avenger
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:16amYou mad bro?
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The Jewish Avenger
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:23amChrisDiamond
So… how long are you staying?
Hint: Bu Bye, nice not knowing ya.
Also might want to start comparing “Christian” slayings to “Athiests slayings”
Tell me, how many abortions in the name of socialism?
Spare me your “fuzzy” logic.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:37amCOLT1860
I mentioned our discussion of the American annihilation of Native Americans because it demonstrated your moral agreement with slaughter, which you excused for the US government because, as you believe they did it under or by ‘God’s command.’ Thus, your allusion to the ‘just’ destruction of Sodom and Gommorah is laughable, and I brought it up because it demonstrated your abject moral bankruptcy. God is perfectly within his right to slaughter human beings because He wants to, right? “THOU SHALT NOT KILL”… unless I tell you to. And neverwemind the motives of the people who acted as God’s murderous proxies… I’m sure they were strictly doing God’s ‘good work’.
WONDER
I love the retreat by Christians into the “If you don’t like our Christians values and heritage then you leave!” So much for respect for freedom. This attitude is so immeasurably hypocrticial as to be absolutely confounding. In truth, you ‘freedom lovers’ are diametrically opposed to freedom for those who disagree with you, especially about religion, and I wish you would at least admit it.
CHECKMATE
Now THAT was funny. Thank you for a good chuckle this Friday morning. =)
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Gin_Ichimaru
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:46am@ChrisDiamond….. all this jibberish talk… man about religion and politics. Thank God I’m an Athiest.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 11:03am@THEJEWISHAVENGER
“Also might want to start comparing “Christian” slayings to “Athiests slayings” Tell me, how many abortions in the name of socialism? Spare me your “fuzzy” logic.”
Well, see Colt has already established that Christians do not consider the slayings by God as immoral, so there is little point in discussing a “Christians vs Atheist” slay total. I believe murder is wrong, period. Christians believe that if God murders, or orders others to do it, then it isn’t murder, it’s killing… and is therefore moral. There cannot be a logical debate about this without a recognition of murder, and it’s immorality, regardless of who perpitrates it.
Abortions for socialism… I studied Chinese Mandarin at the Defense Language Institite Foreign Language Center at the Presidio of Monterey in California, and a project I did during class was research the impact of Mao’s 1-child policy on abortion in China. It was horrifying. Congressional estimates in a report I read listed some 300 million-plus abortions in China from the early 80s through the mid-90s. That’s the entirety of the US population. It is absolutely and unequivocally reprehensible. Does it surprise you that I would categorize abortion in this way?
How many children died in God’s deluge? If children are innocent (age of accountability and whatnot), how many who died were innocent? Killing an innocent is murder, period. I do not understand why Christians refuse to admit and ponder this
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:07pm@GIN_ICHIMARU
Hajimemashite! はじめまして (1 of 2)
I appreciate your comment because it provides an opportunity to reiterate why I continue to argue with theists. I also need Christians to understand that I would have the exact same argument with Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
After Christ’s death, Christians were persecuted nearly everywhere. The Jews saw their religion as blasphemy (the majority of Hebrews did not see Jesus as the Messiah). The Romans, I believe, saw Christianity as a potential threat to Roman hegemony. Still, their numbers grew, partly (I believe) as a response to their persecution. We humans have a thing for underdogs, and the power of martyrdom on the masses is considerable. By Constatntine’s time, Christianity was becoming quite powerful, and Christian infighting was causing ruckus in the empire. He called together the council of Nicea to establish standard ‘tenets’ or rules agreed upon by the Bishops. Christianity continued to grow, and when Emperor Alexus wanted to reconquer the Byzantine territories in 1095, he used Pope Urban II to amass a much larger Army of Christians for a holy war than he ever could an army to gain new tax farms via conquest. These were the Crusades, and the birthplace of the Christian “Just War Theory.” Christian soldiers were absolved of all sins committed in God’s service (according to the Pope), and war atrocities by Muslim/Christians abounded.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:17pm(2/2)
The Emperor knew that men could be motivated by their faith to go to war, if the Pope demanded it. He also knew that the ancillary benefit of retaking the Byzantine territories through this ‘Holy War’ and similar economic/political motives would never be questioned by the religiously indignant. They were, after all going to war to exact vengeance and justice for Christ, to restore rightful Christian presence in Jerusalem and end the persecution of Christians in the region. As I read, Christian pilgrimages to Muslim-controlled Jerusalem continued without incident for 450 years or so until the Turkish Muslims took control of Jerusalem.
And now we see war and other grotesqueries of the human experience propagated by believers in service to their faith: COLT1860 has said that the extermination of Native Americans by the US government under Manifest Destiny was just because that’s how God intended it; Muslims and their suicide bombings, and Christians in the Army of God under the red, white and blue (or the Star of David). The religious war (which is really a war for territory and resources) threatens to destroy our species and planet through use of nuclear arms. John Hagee has declared that Israel and the US should launch a nuclear strike on Iran because he believes it will usher in Christ’s 2nd coming. But… who would Jesus bomb?
Delusional religiosity has been responsible for far too many atrocities, and very well may end life as we know it. No thanks.
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BlackRifle556
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:22pmThis is about freedom you moron, yours, mine and the cheerleaders. The same judge that can stop them can stop you and your idiotic remarks.
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colt1860
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:44pm” I mentioned our discussion of the American annihilation of Native Americans because it demonstrated your moral agreement with slaughter, which you excused for the US government because, as you believe they did it under or by ‘God’s command.’ Thus, your allusion to the ‘just’ destruction of Sodom and Gommorah is laughable, and I brought it up because it demonstrated your abject moral bankruptcy.”
What does that have to do with sings made by highschool students? Once again, you’ve brought a milenia of assertions and illusions in order to arrive at something about moral bankruptcy and Indians. I recommend you stay on topic, or go write a book about your notions elsewhere.
“God is perfectly within his right to slaughter human beings because He wants to, right?”
If by slaughter you mean kill wicked, evil and immoral persons, then yes. He created man, he can destroy man. Killing is NOT immoral. If someone is raping, molesting, or attempting to kill your daugther or mom, I’m pretty darn sure you would step in and use all force necessary to stop it. And not in one bit, would you consider yourself immoral for killing that dispicable degenerate.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:52pmAnd yet your god stood by and watch as ANOTHER young girl was bruitalized and dismembered and left in a field. If I had been there, and he was about to kill that little girl, you bet your a$$ I would have put a few rounds in his hat hanger. I wasn’t there. GOD WAS.
BUT, . . . as per the Old Testament, . . . not everyone who was killed/murdered was “evil”. I bet most were just people living their lives. Many were young children. Many where small children. Many were babies. You only say “it wasn’t immoral for your god to kill them” because it produces cognative dissonance to actually think that your god actually behaved immorally [which he most certainly did].
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Tractorboy
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 1:02pmHey Chris, Good day, I read your last reply to me, you said some 12 years ago you had intense study of the bible, you fasted, prayed, and begged for devine intervention. I say you are still in your walk with the lord otherwise you wouldn’t still be here asking questions, many times the answer to our prayers is NO, or not now, he is building us up for something bigger, Moses, wandered the desert 40 years, it is too bad, it was a horrible experience for you, this is why fellowship is important to the faith, we need to be our brothers keeper, to help each other out, to voice our struggles with each other, or lend a hand, after bible study this morn. helped my Christain brother move something with my truck. My experience thus far has been awesome and uplifting, I always leave church or study feeling great.
But it is people we are dealing with, my fingerprint is different from yours, also my fingerprint is different from my Christain Brothers and sister, we are all different just the way God wanted us.Thus
anybody you come across, it can be good, or bad.
You mention the fancy multimillion dollar churches, the buildings, I agree, a lot of that stuff is over done, and represents what Jesus was about poorly, all that stuff is window dressing, it is not the church, I am the church, where I go the church goes, even thou I many times fall short of showing the great I am his do honor, I do try. God Bless
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MarchBandDad
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 1:48pmWhat kind of idiot are you? This country protects free speech. Period. It does not insulate from religion, nor does it insulate from those that believe they are so superior, that there is no maker to acknowledge. Either way, you are not an American: if you are, please switch citizenry with some other Godless nation.
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SKULLTAKER
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 2:04pmHey boy , I would Pay to be there When you Face GOD, and see you attempt to Spout your Mindless DRIVEL to his Face.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 2:12pmCOLT1860
In the deluge, undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of children died; children who had no knowledge of God, sin, or of their unfair condemnation to hell. That basically embodies innocence, and though innocent, they were likewise murdered in the flood by God’s rage and lament at having created us. I’m still waiting on a refutation of this point.
And yes, killing a person in the scenario you mentioned would be just and moral because it was defense against aggression and disregard for a person’s property right of self. I have stated numerous times that the only moral use of force is it’s application in self-defense (which encompasses family, loved ones, or as the ‘good Samaritan’ etc).
The meandering you accuse me of highlights your inability to keep up with the discussion and your own arguments. You brought up, in this conversation, “BTW, logic would conclude that if indeed we’re all guilty before God, and deserving of death and punishment, than it WOULD BE an act of LOVE for him to provide us with some form of redemption.” This, of course mandated a response, which I provided, and brought in points you made in other conversations to substantiate and provide context to my arguments.
TRACTORBOY
Thank you for your kindness! I hope you have found me to likewise be kind and respectful to you. =)
BlackRifle
If a judge can take a way a right, then it isn’t a right. It is a privilege. You would do well to learn the difference.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 3:22pm@MarchBandDad
Do you speak to all veterans who volunteered to protect your rights to bash us that way? Even if you don’t, you did to me and have committed the same evil that too many of your Christian friends have: treating someone else in a way diametrically opposed to the way Christ taught. Now if you’ll observe, TractorBoy has been kind, gentle and hasn’t backed off of his position. Our discourse has been civil and kind… even complimentary despite our disagreements. How I wish I could enjoy more types of arguments in this kind of nature… I am American, I shall remain American, and there’s nothing you, nor any other Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu or any other believer of any other faith can do about it. I hope you’ll likewise support the free speech of Muslims who show up to these games with signs that say Allahu Akbar ()God is great).
SKULLTAKER
Another fine representative of Christ: another sadist who can’t wait to watch a heathen receive their just and eternal punishment of torture, pain, anguish and misery forever. Don’t claim to be a Christian when you do not treat others the way Christ would want you to.
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Tractorboy
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 4:00pmChris, Thank you for your kind words in return, I believe you can disagree without becoming disagreeable.
Skulltaker, good day, sorry you find my words divel, yes I do have a long rap sheet that I have a lot to explain for at judgment day. God Bless
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binge_thinker
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 9:32pmWhat’s wrong, Chris? Sour grapes?
Constitution=1
Militant Godless=Big fat ZERO
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binge_thinker
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 9:58pmChris seems very convinced there is about to be a Muslim convergence on this small town of about 2,200 to put up Allah Akbar banners. Did you see that in some crystal ball somehow? You know how good of a ruling it was when the anti-faith crowd are in the full-blown fire and brimstone mode.
When freedom of speech wins, it’s people like Chris that run around and complain, when he so clearly misses the point that these fringe,anti-freedom groups like ffrf should examine their own name because freedom from religion should also mean freedom from militant atheists with their overzealous attempts to squish any and all religious expression. Obviously, these aren’t tolerant people; they are bullies and bigots who use the threat of legal action to squelch freedom OF religion of all U.S. citizens. If someone doesn‘t want to believe in God they don’t have to, but don’t expect the rest of us to silence our beliefs for you. See how freedom works.
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reality_check
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:37pmdiamond, your premise is laced with lies. Besides, we have good historical evidence that Jesus was a real man, that he really died, and that his immediate followers very soon after began proclaiming that they had seen him alive after his death and burial. In other words, the origin of the Jesus narrative is the eyewitness testimony of the Jewish men and women who knew and encountered Jesus, not pagan myths. The so-called savior-god stories of ancient myths do not have that kind of evidential credibility.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/did-jesus-exist-an-essential-guide-to-the-evidence-jesus-existed/
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 20, 2012 at 9:30am@BINGETHINKER
You fail to understand the broader implications of the decision. Muslims with pro-Allah signs might not show up in this small Texas town, but if they show up in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, Amarillo, El Paso etc, there will be a state precedent to sanction religious speech in schools. If they are told to leave, or they are attacked by the pro-free speech Christian crowd, the Muslims will win the legal battle, and the attackers will be charged with assault under hate crime law. There will be no protection from posting these kinds of signs in schools. So by demanding promotion of Jehovah in schools, you have won the Muslims the right to do likewise for Allah. If you proceed in winning the right to have religious education in public schools, you will not be able to prevent Muslim religious education in schools, and you can bet CAIR and other pro-Muslim orgs will fight for it. If the people resist, they will lose. They will say you demanded religious education, and by eliminating Islam in public schools, then the state has established/recognized a particular religion over another, which is expressly unconstitutional. See how freedom works?
REALITYCHECK
Point out the lies in my premise. I never claimed Jesus wasn’t a real man, or that he really died. There is no proof that he was resurrected from the dead. The gospels were written decades after Jesus died, not immediately after. These are hardly ‘eye-witness evidence’.
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BobM
Posted on October 20, 2012 at 10:55amYou may want to look at the “facts” about your “starving children”. If you’re speaking with reference to Somalia, ISLAM has its dirty fingerprints ALL OVER that one. There are more people killed each year from ISLAMIC SECTARIAN VIOLENCE than ANY OTHER RELIGION! So YOU have a “case if the a$$” over the fact that some kids in Texas who just happen to be Christians want to put some Bible verses on their cheerleading banners. Did you even read the verses or perhaps then intent of their meanings? I think not. YOU have no interest in the practice of FAITH. Your Godless existance is most likely that of a MATERIALISTIC MORON. YOUR sense of values are most likely dictated by the ACLU. YOU are most likely a “Progressive Liberal” that feels ANYTHING that relates to GOD is “Bad”. I feel sorry for your empty life. You “blame” God for all the tribulations that go on in this world. Maybe if the peoples of this world were closer to the ideals that were brought down on those two tablets by Moses, there would be less strife in this world. So @CHRISDIAMOND, May GOD bless you and “perhaps” bring you some peace. BTW, your name is derived from CHRIST in case you didn’t catch that one.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 20, 2012 at 12:19pmBDBM
Somalia is not the only place in the world where children starve to death. As I’ve attributed this to God, you’ve somehow resorted to charging Muslim sectarian violence to causing… arid climate and soil unfit for vegetation…? That makes so much sense. I agree that Islam sectarian violence is responsible for more death than any other religion, but we’re talking about starvation and God’s responsibility for it.
Yes, I red the verses and I find their application at (of all things) a high school football game hilarious.
You’re right, I have no interest in the practice of faith. I prefer, instead, to act on ideas, concepts etc that have evidence to support them.
I am not materialistic. I’m a working stuff like most of you, and I live well within my means. And though we disagree, you hardly have any justification for calling me a moron. Real Christ-like of you, by the way. ;)
I am an anarchocapitalist, so I despise groups like the ACLU who’s premise seems to be that certain groups are entitled to ‘extra’ rights or protections. Try again.
My life is not empty, so no apology is needed.
I can’t blame God, because He doesn’t exist. But Christians who believe He does must rectify their creator of all things (good, evil, light, dark, love, sin, plants, animals, humans, sun, rain etc) with the fact that, if He knows all, creates all and is all-powerful, then He sits by while 65,000 kids (approximately) starve to death each year.
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margeaux.rox
Posted on October 20, 2012 at 1:58pmChris, Why do you so strongly object to those kids expressing what they believe? I have read several of your postings and you are spewing so much anger! They should not have even had to go to a judge to do it. If you want to go hang your signs that say the creator is dead, then do it. The majority down there might not like it but you can do it. As long as the school doesn’t mandate prayer or the study of religion in the school, it’s legal for the kids to do as they please.
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reality_check
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:57pmChris, Most everything you have spouted about the origins, values, and tenets of Christianity and God are lies. People can read your posting for themselves and see that most of what you say shows a severe lack of original thought, a reliance on tired old cliches about religion, and snap judgments employing psycho-babble that would make Dr. Phil blush. This might help ya.
http://www.atheistdelusion.net/articles.php
As for these hypothetical fantasies about Muslims willing to travel far and wide to raise their religious banners at various sporting events are only a scenario you are playing out in your head. Sorry, Chris, The First Amendment does not ban the display of religious signs anywhere. A cross in a parking lot at a war memorial or this small banner at a football game neither establishes a religion as a national religion, prevents you from practicing your (non) religion, nor impairs your right to free speech or a Muslim’s right to speech. In fact, its removal limits the free speech of those who believe in God and and inhibits their free practice of their religion. WHy can’t you get that?
The Establishment clause has been misinterpreted by dishonest atheists for years into something it does not say. Try reading some history and the Constitution. Then you might actually gain some real understanding. The establishment clause is there to preserve religious freedoms, not censor it in the name of political correctness which is all you seem to want to do.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:53am@REALITY_CHECK
Why try and support your insulting assertions about me by linking to a site that is devoted to ‘debunking’ Richard Dawkins; a biologist and Darwinian evolutionist? I’ve talked about the nature of God, as the Bible tells us, and haven’t focused on creation vs. evolution.
My assessment of the story of the fall of man, and of God’s responsibility in it is not complicated. So ‘psychobabble’ does not apply here. I’ve simply had the audacity to put the story plainly, and since that story (plainly told) is unflattering to your opinion and views, you’ve attacked me as a liar, for being ignorant (of the ‘real’ God, American history and the Constitution), and having no understanding. My entire argument here, regarding God, is that even if He did exist, He isn’t worthy of what Christians ascribe to Him. In your seething retorts, you haven’t offered any refutation to what I’ve said about the nature of God, i.e. causing the fall, creating us to fail, hypocrisy, subjection to baser human emotions and drives… not one refutation, scriptural or otherwise.
Further, I’ve advocated for believers of other faiths to also exercise their right to free speech, which I am glad to see you support. But if you believe Muslims will not use court decisions like this, and the success of Christian efforts to have religion taught in schools to get Islam taught in public schools also, you’re fooling yourself. Calm down, focus on the actual argument, and try again ple
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reality_check
Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:01amChris, You seem testier than usual. I know you have painted this far-fetched negative image in your head of Christianity and God and becvause of that you fail to seperate those issues you’re facing with the very basics of this argument, which is free speech and one’s ability to practice freedom of religion , which is what the crux of this asinine attempt by this group of anti-Christian zealots in Wisconsin is all about. Now, If you want to spout hysteric hyperbole about the nature of God and God’s will as Dawkins does, then I only thought it would be beneficial to highlight what nonsense it is and how those same tried and failed arguements by you have been thoroughly refuted and defeated by far better debaters and thinkers than I.
Lastly, you finally said one thing that makes sense, the Constitution protects the rights of all Americans to advocate their beliefs. This right even extends to atheists, a small, disgruntled minority who promote the faith-based belief that God does not exist and who regularly showcase the same kind of anti-religious rhetoric that you claim that highlights your fledgling movement. It would be nice though if these misguided atheists would recognize that the Constitution extends the same right to the millions of Americans who cherish their religious beliefs. Sadly, like in the case of these courageous cheerleaders, they insist instead on silencing religious expression at every turn, as if they and they alone are entitled to free spee
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 24, 2012 at 9:37am@REALITY_CHECK
When I read stories of people being jailed for hosting prayer meetings and church in their own homes, I get sick to my stomach… literally. I hate that the state believes it can come into someone’s very home and dictate what can and cannot be said in it, whether the discussion is about God or anything else I don’t believe in or agree with. With regards to the cheerleaders, whether the school sponsored the God banners or not, since they paraded them out during a school function on school grounds in their school cheerleader uniforms, it lends to the notion that the religious speech was sanctioned if not altogether sponsored by the school. This is not the job of the public education system, and pro-Islam groups use every single decision like this that they can to inch Islam into more and more schools across America. I imagine you don’t want Islam taught in public schools or even represented at public schools. I don’t. But I realize that the best way to prevent this from happening is also not allowing Christian speech, sanction or representation in public schools. These girls and everyone else is free to say whatever they want, whenever they want, but I believe discretion should be used at publicly funded spaces. Would you want land you pay for to host my atheist event, or be a safehaven for my pro-Atheism signs? Of course not.
I didn’t make a Dawkins argument against God. I used the fall of man story to illustrate God’s character. Try again.
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reality_check
Posted on October 24, 2012 at 8:19pmChris, what I can say with clear certainity is your point is moot. You can argue hypotheticals til pigs fly but the district judge in Texas disagreed with you and found this a clear violation of the free speech guaranteed to these courageous cheerleaders by our Constitution. Freedom wins. Censorship lost.
Adios.
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JoeBloe
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:32pmThe Freedom From Religion Foundation….
Hmmmm..”From”?
1st Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
FACT: There is no “separation of Church and State” in the Constitution, Amendments, Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence.
Here’s how THIS case should have been handled in Court:
Judge: “Whom do you represent?”
Lawyer: “The Freedom FROM Religion Foundation”
Judge: “Yes. Well. Thank you all for stopping by boys. NEXT CASE!”
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drs1969
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:40pmThese cases would be thrown out if there weren’t so many Jewish lawyers and judges nowadays. FFRF has several in it. Atheism is a branch of Jewish Bolshevism. This is what you could call their flanking attack on our culture. Christianity was banned when they took control in Russia.
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margeaux.rox
Posted on October 20, 2012 at 1:59pmYou’re right. There is no separation of church and state. It was referred to in letters to the Danbury Baptist Church by Thomas Jefferson, if memory serves.
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ObamaForward_OverTheCliff
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:48pm“Judge Sides With TX Cheerleaders: Ban on Bible Banners Violates Their Free Speech Rights”
What? Texas? The state of all those TheBlaze stories that makes it look more mind-numbed-Liberal than New York? TEXAS?
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TexasToasterStrudel
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:32pmWhat???
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drrgb
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:42pmIts ironic that while atheists fight so hard against public expression of religion, they are in fact ultimately giving up their own rights as atheism is simply religion for the self absorbed, toleralnce for the intolerant.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:49pmYet another person who strawman’s what the actual atheist is about. Wonderful.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:13pmDeavon I dunno about you, but his response is on par with the vast majority (not all) of the Christian posters on The Blaze. On occasion you run into one or two who (a) know what they are talking about (b) understand the foundations of argumentation and (c) at least do not resort to senseless ad hominems. Those posters here are extremely few and far between though.
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drrgb
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 9:14pmSo you can smugly critize my world but I have no insight into yours. Typical elitist drivel.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 9:08amDRRGB, when you criticize correctly, you may have a point. Atheism isn’t “a religion”. It is the rejection of “god claims”, based upon those claims having NO credible/compelling evidence. YOU are atheist about all other gods but the christian god. It’s a very simple concept.
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rdinsd
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:41pmI think we should all go to this Atheist group’s website and order their free Introductory Packet which they’ll have to mail and PAY postage for and they’ll be happy to send hundreds if not thousands of these packets out that hit their budget line. Receive the packet. Toss it or use it for scrap paper. Here’s the link: http://ffrf.org/get-involved/membership/request-info/
Make these nuts pay while they think their doing a service. LOL.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:51pmAnd I love how bigoted some of you are and how your sole purpose would be to damage. Thanks for showing your true colors.
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Texas-Proud
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:54pmVery good idea RDINSD, took 4 times for their webpage to load up and a couple to accept the form. Never could get to their next page of info, so looks like A LOT of people ate taking your suggestion to heart.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:20pm“And I love how bigoted some of you are and how your sole purpose would be to damage. Thanks for showing your true colors.”
Sounds like you’re discribing most of the work the FFRF and ACLU do.
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drs1969
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:43pmRe: Deavon
Don’t forget anti-semite. Atheism is a branch of Jewish Bolshevism. FFRF is an attack org. against Christians. ACL-Jew is another.
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reality_check
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:40pmNo need to make anyone at that hate-laced, anti-American foundation a martyr. Just knowing how they must feel at yet another humiliating defeat they’ve suffered is consolation enough and should make any freedom-loving American feel pretty good.
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drrgb
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:38pmThe first ammendment protects freedom of religous expression and to do this it prohibits the national government from establishing a government religion. There is nothing in the constitution about sensitivity to the insensitive or “separation of church and state”. More importantly, there is nothing that prohibits the expression of religious freedom or religious symbols or even prayer even on federal property.
While all the selfish libs are running around crying foul, the constitutional truth is that the supreme court can only interpret the constitution, not create whole new additions like “seperation”.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:18pmWhile some atheists make the ‘sensitivity’ argument, I make the argument on the use of public funds. I apply it equally to the abject destruction of peoples and countries abroad by our military, the prosecution of the drug war, corporate welfare, social welfare… I find these governmental activities morally reprehensible, and wish that they weren’t stealing from us to fund public education… but since they are, I do not believe a public institution funded by the tax dollars of atheists and believers alike should be promoting or sponsoring the claim of a deity. The real pain of it is is that I can disagree on moral grounds all I want, but haven’t the freedom to act on that disagreement. I can’t stop paying taxes on the grounds that they use the money they take from me to fund their inhumane wars (overseas, on poverty, on drugs etc). If I do, I’ll be arrested, and if I resist being arrested, I will be shot.Pay to support that which you find morally repugnant, or be caged, or killed. How’s that for freedom?
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:30pm“but since they are, I do not believe a public institution funded by the tax dollars of atheists and believers alike should be promoting or sponsoring the claim of a deity”
I stand with the first President of the US and the Father of our Nation, George Washington, who stated, in his Farewell Address (September 19, 1796), “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:42pmSo, COLT1860, if you agree with President Washington, and you acknowledge Paul’s writing in Romans 13 as true and of divine inspiration, then you wholeheartedly support the theft of your money by a government full of people who claim to be Christian to support the murder of protestors in Bahrain, the provision of money and weapons to al Qaeda groups in Libya and Syria, the murder of 1.5 million Iraqi women and children through sanctions, the imprisonment of people who dared inhale smoke from a burning weed, the murder of millions of Native Americans under manifest destiny, the murder of 200,000 plus Japanese civilians with atomic weapons, the imprisonment of tens of thousands of immigrants during WW2 for no other crime than being Japanese, German or Italian, the manipulation of our currency for the benefit of the big banksters and corporations, the pushing of unsafe vaccines and genetically modified food products by the Food and Drug Administration, the Police State, assistance to Mexican drug cartels… I mean do I need to go on? No matter what GW thought of religion and it’s inseparable ties to a moral and just government… it is irrelevant. The founders said that if men were angels we wouldn’t need government. Well because men are not angels we should most DEFINITELY not have a government and grant a monopoly on the initiation of force and violence and theft to an entity that will attract megalomaniacal egoists who desire to control people!
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:03pmYou can’t dismiss my argument by stating a bunch of irrelevant topics and issues I never brought up. I specifically quoted the statement you made to which I was responding. Eerything else you stated is moot, irrelevant, another topic, taking it to the extreme, ignoring what I posted, and sidestepping my argument, which hasn’t been refuted.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:20pm@Colt1860
You didn’t make an argument. You quoted George Washington. If anything, in argumentation that would be call a fallacious argument from authority; restating someone else’s opinion. So your point required no refutation, first because it isn’t your point, and second, because GW could not then, and could not now provide evidentiary proof of this God he referenced. So it is fallacious to assert that his opinion is true; it is a logical non-sequitir.
By comparison, what I did was list all the things our supposed Christian government has done, cited Paul’s writings in Romans 13 about government and the powers that be being ordained by God, and pointed out the incongruity in between. Since you believe in the need for the Christian moral foundation of our government, and since you use the opinions of the founders and try to pawn them off as facts to make your argument for you, my questions and points were not moot. Perhaps they were just a little beyond the blinders you allow to remain over your skills in cognition and reason.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:37pmLOL. You still haven’t refuted what I posted.
YOU SAID, “but since they are, I do not believe a public institution funded by the tax dollars of atheists and believers alike should be promoting or sponsoring the claim of a deity”
MY point was that YOUR opinion doesn’t matter. We should follow the Constitution as intended by our forefathers, and not try to transform it to mean something else. By their own acts, they refute YOUR assertion that public institutions funded by tax dollars can’t mention God. When in fact, THEY WERE IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED WHEN THEY PASSED THE DECLARATION WHICH MENTIONS GOD, AND APPEALS TO GOD, THUS ACKNOWLEDGING A DEITY. Are you to blind to see?
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Spqr1
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:33pmHmmmmm. If both sides invoke God and/or Jesus by praying for victory, what does that say about the losers? Since someone has to lose, it’s a logical conclusion that God doesn’t care about your little football game in the first place. Don’t think too hard or your head will explode.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:43pmAtheists seek for self pride and self glory. True Christians seek for guidance and protection. Thanks for making clear the desires of your heart.
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drrgb
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:47pmWhile both sides “praying” for victory may be a little ironic and not very biblical, it is a right of religious self expression guaranteed by the constitution. The constitution doesn’t just protect free speech that you deem rational.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:08pmVicotory could mean many things. One being, victory in aquiring the courage and stregnth needed to compete against ones opponents. Two, vicotory in knowing one has put forth the best effort possible. Three, victory in recognizing ones loyalty and obedience towards ones teachers, coaches and parents pays off at the end. Four, victory in being able to willingly give respect and honor to all those deserving of such merit. Five, victory in being able to accomplish ones goals and other requisites neccesary to play the game. Six, victory in having learned to be a team player and good sportsman in order to apreciate the opportunity to play the game fairly and responsibly with others. Seven, victory in recognizing ones acheivement in the course of becoming qualified to play on that field.
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Spqr1
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:16pmWhether or not such prayers happen is not for any of us to control or dictate. I’m just pointing out where logical questions lead to more questions, if you actually take the time to think. But, doesn’t look like you are taking that time, no exploded heads.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:29pm@Colt1860
“Atheists seek for self pride and self glory. True Christians seek for guidance and protection. Thanks for making clear the desires of your heart.”
Oh now if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black… Some of you Christians posting here are so very proud of your (non)arguments, your ‘religious’ (HA) use of logical fallacies and your incessant insults… That ilk of Christians make Ghandi’s words ring so powerfully true: ” I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:55pmYou’re making moot arguments. Who said they’re praying for God to let them win the game? One student, as was the sentiment with other students, specifically said, “God needs to be everywhere in our lives”. He continued, “When I see the sign. I feel he’s just come over on top of the team, to PROTECT us through our game.” The report stated the fellow teammates “take pride in running through the signs. In their minds, it demonstrates WHO THEY ARE, and what they beleive”. Another student said, “I think we should be able to hold up our signs, and tell everybody Jesus died on the cross, and he gives us the strength and EVERYTHING to play our games, to cheer…” One parent said, “This is those kids heart and soul in this, it’s not just words”. You liberals love to shout freedom of speech, until it offends you, and, freedom of expression, until you dislike it, and, freedom of religion, oh wait, you just don’t accept that one. Liberals are hypocrites. They’re in favor of discriminating against those of faith. Faith is a way of life. It’s not something you can leave at home, surrender at the door, or deny or hide when in public. For some, it defines them. It’s high time to have these liberal atheists and Marxist to pay for the damages and injuries they’ve caused to our communities. Bring the Lawsuits on. Their lies and deluded assertions will be exposed for the fraud they are.
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Locked
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:55pmThe team is 5W, 1L right now, and ranked 482nd in Texas.
http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/kountze-lions-(kountze,tx)/football/home.htm
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jackact
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:27pmWe’ll take the victories one at a time.
Every victory is important and the culmination of many more will begin to ‘level the playing field’ (to borrow a phrase) in the years to come.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:35pm“Every victory is important and the culmination of many more will begin to ‘level the playing field’ (to borrow a phrase) in the years to come.”
Please explain to me: what playing field are you referring to? Who has bigger and much more deeply funded lobbies in Washington DC; atheist groups, or evangelical groups? Does any single or group of atheist or secular groups have even one 10th the power and pull of AIPAC in DC?
No. There is no ‘field’. Secularists are trashed here just like everywhere else by ‘kind and loving’ Christians, so secularists aren’t on any field you could possibly be talking about. We tend to hang around level fields of reason and evidence though, and perhaps it is the blinders of faith (and the rampant hypocrisy amongst you Christians) that keep you from seeing the field we’re on at all.
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drs1969
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:52pmDon’t count on it.
Have you noticed the Jewish content of th Sup. Ct.? Buchanan was fired from MSNBC for pointing it out.
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reality_check
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:47pmHere’s where the God- haters and their version of fascism are going with this. A widow in MInnesota was banned from reading the Bible, talking about religion, or holding a Bible study in the common area of her apartment complex.
“Ruth Sweats was was having a casual conversation with another resident about the Bible when a social worker interrupted the conversation and told her that she could not talk about religion or the Bible in the commons area.
The social worker then told the widow that the apartment complex receives funding from the federal government and therefore she did not have First Amendment rights because HUD does not allow religious discussions in public areas of the complex.”
Sound like America to you?
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john vincent
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:21pmThe ‘church and state’ piano roll has long been worn out. The repetitious nonsense has as least for the moment, been rebuked. What ‘church’ is represented when a girl carries a sign that reads:
‘the heavens declare the glory of God?’ Assuredly none, there is no threat, nobody is offended, and nobody is proslytized.
But if the sign read: ‘kill the devils,’ there would be no uprising. For those of you are chronic complainers about sport signs, get a life, and find a better cause.
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mrunner
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:02pmI will have to read the first amendment again. I thought I read something in there about the government not being allowed to make any law “respecting the establishment of a religion”. Unless the cheerleaders are actually congresswomen- and the banner is a bill they are proposing- I am unclear on the issue?? Damned aethists need to learn to “live and let live”. They don’t have a right to go through life without ever being offended!
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drs1969
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:56pmControl freaks don’t let people alone. Looks like Obssessive-Compulsive Disorder to me. Inherited, no doubt.
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reality_check
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 10:57pmDon’t forget that Congress opens every session with a prayer but cheerleaders in Texas can’t put a biblical quote on a banner?
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COFemale
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:02pmThe school can’t promote the practice, but students of the school are NOT breaking the Supreme Court ruling. Also there is NO separation of church and state in the Constitution. There never has been and as long as I am alive, there will never be one. This is a figment made up by leftist Marxist, Communist Liberal Progressive Democrats. Dang their title is getting longer. Will they just settle on one name. Like A-holes.
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COFemale
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:57pmWe should make it clear to FFRF as soon as you step in our cities and state and you don’t live her, we will run you out of town. You have no jurisdiction here. Fight in your own state and leave our state alone. We should treat them the same we treat Westboro Baptist Church as vermin who needs to be run out of our buildings, homes and other hiding places and make them scurry back to their hiding places under ground.
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momrules
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:43pmRefreshing….. Wonderful…….A clear victory of good over evil.
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Gin_Ichimaru
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:01pmNo people can maintain freedom unless their political institutions are founded upon faith in God and belief in the existence of moral law.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:13pmAnd if that’s the case, . . . that’s pretty sad [not that I agree with your statement, gin]. Having said that, feel free to believe in a “law giving god” if you want, but I would hope you could see the problem with such an ideology.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:26pmAmen.
Samuel Adams wrote a letter on October 4, 1790 to his cousin John Adams, who was vice president of the United States: “Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government… in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system. Knowledge apart from God and His truth is little better than complete ignorance, because the most important aspect of education is the imbuing of moral principles. All education is religious – it imparts a basic set of principles and ideals, a worldview. How the youth are educated today will determine the course a nation takes in the future.”
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wvernon1981
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:33pmWell I’m not sure how siding with an omnipotent sadist is choosing good over evil.
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scrudge
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:41pmAh Yes…. school district 0 cheerleaders 100…. kiss off school district
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Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:27pmExcellent.
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IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:26pmGod is everywhere and watching over all. I don’t know about you but I want to be prepared.
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Wool-Free Vision
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:23pmOne for the good guys. News like this makes me optimistic.
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DesertPaine
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:19pmI have a dream….that one day, people of this nation will assert, protect and defend ALL parts of the Constitution with the sort of vigor that the cheerleaders displayed on this one issue. What a nation it would be.
I have another dream…that one day, the people who spent time and treasure opposing the exercise of free speech and religion will humor us and actually read that pesky little cornerstone of the nation. They run and hide, like cockroaches, when asked to point out the words ‘separation of church and state’ IN the charter.
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doomytram
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:11pmThe Freedom From Religion Foundation can’t lick up enough Islam Muslim stuff though…Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. Attorney’s + Muslim’s + Sharia Law + PC = The Project
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Ilikepeople
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:23pmDon’t forget to watch where the feet are carrying the body too. That’s why it’s kind of important to watch the Supreme Court. Oh and you should do a self check once in a while to seeing if your body has shifted at all. It’s always a good thing to do a self check.
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Ilikepeople
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:26pmBecause if your body moves then somebody like the gov might come along to help get your legs back underneath you.
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dealer@678
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:10pmThose dam athiests are messing with the wrong people. Go Texas !!!
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Arnold_Ziffel
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:08pmIt”s about time! Good ruling, just be aware, this is a call for tolerance by all for all; meaning that we can’t get upset when someone else wants to display a different message regarding faith.
Pray your faith is not so weak that you can’t withstand words on a banner!
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stoptheliesbho
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:16pmVERY good point. I’m glad that the judge here was neutral and did the right thing, regardless of religion. Free speech is our right as Americans.
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hi
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:42pmI know what you mean and I agree. But, actually, since my faith is so strong, I would not want to be in the same place where someone worships not Jesus. I believe they have freedom of religion. But, I really don’t want Satanic signs at my football game.
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Arnold_Ziffel
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:24pm@Hi
Agreed, that is why Christianity can be so hard to live out in every day life. The thing is, we don’t have freedom FROM religion under the constitution, we have freedom OF religion. If we are offended, then it is up to us to take steps to do the right thing in OUR lives. If that means not going where God is not worshiped and Jesus is not acknowledged, then that should be our choice. After all, we are in the world but are not to be OF the world. This is why my family does not “do” Halloween.
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floridareader
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:08pmNot only their free speech rights, but their religious freedom.
If we are with God, who is against us?
NO ONE!
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:34pmJust a side note, . . . . “If god is with us, who can be against us?” What does that even mean? Even when that verse was written, MANY were “against those who were ‘with god’…”. Many of them succeeded as well. Is this verse just a meaningless “pep rally” statement?
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:24pm“The law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth… When we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death… There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit… And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified… If God be for us, who can be against us… Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?… In all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:36pmNot sure how that answered my question, but okay.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 5:03pmIf we are justified by God, the Supreme Judge of the World, who then can bring a charge against us, and condemn us? N-O-B-O-D-Y.
“Early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
If he fought for us, and defeated our foes, what man can then claim victory over us? N-O O-N-E.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:02pm@Colt1860
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:”
Yes, precisely. Predestination; foreknown; chosen (called). This illustrates the lack of free will argument we had on another thread. If you are correct about good ol’ Jehovah, then He created us destined to fail, tested Adam and Eve in a way He knew they would fail, and then condemned all of humanity for eternity because Adam and Eve failed the test He made for them that He knew we would fail. There is no free will in that. There is also no free will if Jesus is an option, but only the ‘called’ or chosen will come to Him for redemption.
But I bet it makes you feel pretty special and holier than thou for your special selection… I mean you’re humility about it all is astonishing, really.
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 6:22pmIf he gaves us free will, then we were entrusted to do the right thing ourselves. He did not fail, WE messed up. By free will, I can murder someone right now. Is that right to do? Just because I can? Who failed who? A God who gaves us ultimate freedom, and the knowledge to know what is right, or men who wanted to do whatsover they wanted as they wanted?
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 8:34pm@COLT1860
“Who failed who? A God who gaves us ultimate freedom, and the knowledge to know what is right, or men who wanted to do whatsover they wanted as they wanted?”
How is it freedom when the game is rigged? Right away God infringes on this ‘perfect freedom’ by telling Adam and Eve to not eat the beautiful and delicious (temptations) fruit of the tree of life. And if man wants to do whatever he/she wants to do, then you have God to thank for that proclivity in us, as according to you and Christians, He created us. He created everything, so he created our temptability, and he also created all the things that tempt us. You can’t get around this and retain any shred of intellectual honesty. So for Him to damn us for being the way He created us is laughably hypocritical. If I broke your legs and then cursed you because you couldn’t walk you would (justly) label me an absolute fool, but God does something similar (although much more dire) and gets a pass…?
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colt1860
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 9:33pmYou’re all over the place. You’re running circles here. You’re falsely asserting things and assuming too many things. For starters, why do you insist on debating something you don’t give a d*mn about, or care to actually understand? An atheist trying to debate theology? LOL. When you read Harry Potter, do you question the author’s reason for giving Harry a birth mark, or for sending him to a certain magic school and not another? What you fail to do is to critique the work on its own merits, without interjecting your own preconceived notions outside of that work. You can’t read any novel or other piece by absolutely twisting and slanting everything stated therein. That is insanity, dishonest. To nit pick a story for which you don’t believe and then demand answers for which you won’t accept is stupid. You’re spouting nonsense and ignorance. You keep bringing up false presumptions and bias viewpoints.
Let’s follow your logic to a complete course here, instead of creating a bunch detours, like you have been doing all along. If God created everything and is responsible for everything, then what does it matter to you what he does or doesn’t do? Who are you to reproach him for his work? It’s HIS.
“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!… Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?”
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 9:04amWhat Chris asks is quite valid. We must look at all the information given. We have a [supposed] omniscient god [debatable, but I digress]. He set up a test [as is in his character to do, see Job]. Surprise, suprise! Satan is involved in this test.
Adam and Eve are created. However, IF a perfect god cannot make mistakes, then all things are created according to a plan [and there "must be sin so Jesus can do his thing"]. Therefore, Adam and Eve HAD to be created gullible and easily swayed by a creature that isn’t “the omnipotent god” being . . . .else, the test [which was rigged from the beginning] would fail. Of course, god knew the test would “be successful”, . . . that Adam and Eve would fail.
This “test” continues today. And it is a test that humans CANNOT pass. . . .on purpose. God creates joys [that he cannot know], and punishes when we ACT according to our designed characteristics.
Let me say more about god and “our sin”. God pronounces judgement upon people . . . for things he cannot experience [if he truly is a god who "cannot do evil, or sin"]. This type of god could NOT have a frame of reference in which to even understand the human condition. This type of god would NOT know what it was like to actually BE tempted [and no, Jesus's "temptation" doesn't count]. Therefore, this type of god is unqualified to rule on what it can’t know.
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colt1860
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 12:47pmGod created the human body, soul and spirit. He’s more than qualified to know the human condition.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 2:20pmI disagree. Even if there was some “level of knowledge”, god would be entirely incapable of knowing WHAT it is like to come to a point where you DO “sin”. Your bible says “god cannot be tempted”, therefore, it cannot know what it is like to be human. It would have no idea of knowing WHY a being actively responsed to a specific stimuli. NONE!
I say all of this as an argument sake only. I don’t believe this “god being” exists, . . . but as claimed by christianity, I will critique it.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 3:37pmWell-said, Deavon!!
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 3:44pmThank you, friend. I’ve seen the “god can do anything” type of responses before, but you must overlook some glaring inconsistencies while doing so. It also requires that the topic be looked at with the “rose colored stained glass window” glasses off.
I’ve enjoyed your posts here too. Must step away for the evening. Enjoy yours!
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reality_check
Posted on October 19, 2012 at 11:13pmTypical strawman from deavon but that’s par for the course in these types of threads.
Yes, God could have eliminated all evil and temptation in the design of His universe. However, such a universe would have been unable to accomplish the main purpose for which God created the universe in the first place – to allow free will choice by human beings. God has designed the laws of the universe so that human beings are unable to exhibit unlimited amounts of evil. However, it is not possible to design a universe in which the exercise of evil is completely eliminated, since evil begins in the minds of human beings. To restrict the minds of human beings is to turn them into mindless robots. Although this approach might seem attractive (especially with some a couple ppl here ), it would prevent people from expressing true love – for each other and for God their Creator.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 20, 2012 at 12:32pmREALITYCHECK
If God is all-knowing, then He knew before He created us that we would fail and be condemned to hell. If that was His plan, then what can we say about God? In fact, God told us all we need to know about how He felt about it before the flood. He repented that He made us. How is that possible, if, by your argument, He knew we would fall into sin and require the Messiah for salvation? If tthe fall and salvation were His plan, then the fall and the wickedness would be needed, and, moreover, BY HIS DESIGN, which also means that the possibility of an eternity in hell is by HIS creation, not ours. If He did not create hell, then we couldn’t go there.
Evil did not begin in the minds of human beings. Evil began in Lucifer, whom God created knowing that he would become evil. As Christians put it, God created us, and did so in His own image. If we have proclivities toward evil, then either so does God, or He created them in us and made them the more powerful force within our nature. You cannot escape this through reason, logic or scripture. All we get in response to these claims is excuses, or some claim that we’re blinded and therefore cannot understand. Hogwash. Have you read the Bible? Your post is entirely conjectural.
Finally, God demands that we love someone we must fear, which is similar to the mental sickness that causes masochism. How anyone recognizes this as a moral or just demand is beyond me.
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reality_check
Posted on October 22, 2012 at 12:17amAhhh…the age-old question “Why did God create evil?”, I submit that He didn’t. God allows freedom of choice. When we choose to stray from His perfect will, we do that which is against the good and perfect. This we have titled evil. I offer an illustration: I have a dog at home. Before I bought the dog, I knew that buying it would bring problems (housebreaking, chewing things, feeding it, etc.) but I bought it anyway. I could have gone to the toy store and purchased a mechanical dog which would do all the things a real dog does. When I come home, it could wag its tail, come to me, bark and feel soft when I pet it. So, why did I choose the more expensive real animal instead of the no-fuss kind? Because, the real dog is capable of showing love of its own volition! A robot won’t do that. And if you want to have love, the dog (or human) must be capable of free will. God gave us free will. We choose to do evil. That isn’t God’s fault. If evil wasn’t a choice, then there would be no free will.
God desires true love from us, and the only way that is obtained is by our choice. If one chooses not to love God but rebel from him, you will have evil. Which would you rather have: a Stepford wife or someone who might make you mad at times, but shows genuine affection for you.
I don’t believe in forcing beliefs upon anyone, for that is contradictory anyway. But, I do believe that Christianity is logical, and should be allowed to be examined as such in the marketplace of ideas
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:05amReality Check….It isn’t a strawman if it is true!
You say, “it is not possible to design a universe in which evil is eliminated…”. And again with the “mindless robots”? This is a typical christain way to deal with the cognitive dissonance of “how an omniscient god created evil”. This god already HAD “free will agents” [angels]. According to tradition, that didn’t work out too well [third of angels]. But “evil only begins in the mind of man” because that mind was DESIGNED to love what is “evil”. Then it is punished for acting normal. MOST of that “loved by god” creation spending an eternity in a HELLISH torture chamber. Is that the “love” you are defending??? A god who creates people TO fail, . . . they fail, . . . leaves his existence up to “faith” and the words of some guys from uneducated regions of bronze age Palestine. . . never lets itself be known, . . . damning most to this “hell”, . . . that that is “love”? Please.
Many have given this response. . . as well as the “god desires ‘true love’ from us”. If a god “desires” what it doesn’t have, . . . it cannot be complete in itself [thus imperfect]. And there are places in the bible that show this god AS imperfect. So if it damns ME for not being “perfect”, then it is a hypocrite. And “forcing belief”??? That IS the christian message! Forcing belief, else you burn for all eternity. A belief with NO credible evidence. That “logic” fails.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:21amAnd, by the way, . . . your dog analogy doesn’t work with “a god”. . . . . . unless you buy the real dog, . . . put it in a far off location where it never has any contact with you at all, and you snipe at it with a pellet gun when it does something that YOU don’t like, . . . although it is in the dogs natural behavior.
Did the dog “CHOOSE to love you back” when it never knows you exist? No! It knows what it comes in contact with. That it feels stinging pains from time to time [from your pellet gun] doesn’t make it suddenly “love you back”. It still knows nothing about you at all. And at the end of the time you’re tired of it ignoring you, . . . you end its life by running it over with your car when it is busy sniffing the ground for the interesting smell it just discovered.
Bottom line. . . . . don’t call it “a choice” when that is [at best] laughable.
We have natural characterists. Going against them IS abnormal. Like the dog. It does as dogs do natural. We are animals that also do what is natural. Requiring “perfection” [from a non-perfect entity] is absurd. . . when the “punishment” is eternal torture. Why do you “lust after the opposite sex”? It is NATURAL! Yet even the mere thought makes you “a sinner”. Is that “love” to stack the deck SO much against you that you WILL fail? Absolutely! That’s like telling the small child, “Yeah! Touch the [turned on] burner. It will be fun!!!”
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:27am*Correcting a left out word*
Is that “love” to stack the deck SO much against you that you WILL fail? Absolutely NOT!
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 22, 2012 at 5:23pm@REALITY_CHECK
You submit that God did not create evil, but this is a baseless opinion, where there is scriptural and logical evidence that prove He did.
Amos 3:6 (KJV) says: “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”
Isaiah 45:7 says: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.”
Yes, I am aware of the ‘meaning of words’ debate that apologists try to make, but c’mon… Isn’t that an all-too-often ‘out’ of convenience for Christians to take? “Well that’s not what He REALLY meant…” I’m sure the resident etymologist, COLT1860 will chime in on this.
Of course if you acknowledge this, then you have to concede the argument to me about God’s responsibility for the fall of man, and our condemnation to hell. God created Lucifer knowing he would turn evil. God created Adam and Eve weak to temptation and with a desire to ‘sin’ stronger than that to serve, God loosed the King Tempter of the Universe on gullible Eve, made an attractive object the object of the temptation… I’ve said it all before and have not yet received one refutation of God’s responsibility for all of this. Instead, people say it was part of His plan… If it were, then why then would He lament creating us before murdering millions with the deluge?
Your post was completely conjectural. Mine was based on scripture. Please refute what I’ve
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reality_check
Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:17amIf Deavon had one honest answer, I’ve surely never seen one posted here.
God certainly doesn’t send His children to Hell because when we’re His children we’re in the family of God. We’re born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We’re not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.
Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man’s rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn’t have any use for people–only the desire to get ahead.
The Bible makes it very clear that God desires every person to be saved, and by His Spirit He seeks to draw every person to Himself. The only obstacle to universal salvation is therefore human free will. It’s logically impossible to make someone freely do something. God’s being all-powerful doesn’t mean that He can do the logically impossible. Thus, even though He is all-powerful, God cannot make everyone freely be saved. Given human freedom and human stubbornness, some people may go to hell despite God’s desire and efforts to save them.
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reality_check
Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:49amChris, Your back and forth spinning is so fast it’s hard to keep pace, but your talking points are getting old.
Now, although God ordered the extermination of entire cities, He did so in righteous judgment on a people whose corruption had led to extreme wickedness , including Child sacrifice In the greatest story of judgment, God sent a flood to kill all humanity except Noah and his family. However, Noah preached to the people of the coming judgment during the 100 years he was building the ark. Did he not?
Did God destroy the righteous along with the wicked? In an exchange with Abraham, God indicated that He would spare the wicked to save the righteous. He demonstrated this principle by saving righteous people from Sodom and Jericho prior to their destruction. The fallacious charge that God indiscriminately murdered people does not hold to to critical evaluation of the biblical texts.
Evil is not really a created thing. You can’t see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like you claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to “prove” their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.
“For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them. (Deuteronomy 4
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:47amRealitycheck, . . I realize that you may not see what I post as that which you agree. But that, by no means, should EVER indicate that I am not honest. You accused me of “another typical strawman”, but YOU never showed how I was “strawman-ing”! That’s how it works! So if you are going to say that I “strawman” or “am not being honest”, then you better damn well show it!
And I never said “a god who sends ‘his children’ to hell”. I said one who puts people there when they act as they were created to act. And for “a god who wants everyone to be saved”, this god did the VERY LEAST . . . in making a true argument for itself. Leaving it to yet ANOTHER “faith belief”. . . . Did you ever wonder why EVERY other religion “accepts it by faith in the unseen”? If a god “wanted everyone to be saved”, AND “cared for them with a love we can’t understand”, . . . yet leaves it up to “ancient text, left up to human understanding, leaving it up to human interpretation, revision, and opinion as to what even happened, always hiding and never actually showing up to speak for itself”. . . . . . then it fails! If people go to hell, . . . they go there absolutely UNjustly.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:57amAnd let’s get down to “what they are being saved from”!! This god created a hell [and I would hope you can see a glaring problem with the "for the devil and his angels" part]. Leaves it up to “just another of the MANY faiths claims of the world, past, present, and future”, . . . remains completely silent to the world, yet holds it against US when we don’t see any proof to any of it [or take the path of another religion, whether out of choice or due to where we were born]. Then this god states, “believe AND love me with all your heart, OR. . . you get sent to the burning fires of hell.” Again, without ANY credible evidence for that person when they were alive.
So, what ARE you “being saved from”? From the very being that claims “a love for you”. It is THIS god who determines your eternal existence, based upon. . . . . . . a human decision. ETERNITY of torture, . . . because this god didn’t like the choice we made. Sorry, but that is a primitive stance. . . and makes perfect sense when you place that world view in the time it was put on that media. Yes, . . . the “god” that you serve . . . IS the bronze age man. HIS understanding and view of the world. In a time where people WERE scary, . . . so goes “their god”. Those who oppose are destroyed. When you put it all into perspective, along with what we know of that time, today, it all makes sense.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:17amLet me speak to “Sodom and Gomorrah”. So, you don’t think there were INNOCENT children and babies that suffered the pain of heat and sulfer that this god sent down on them? So you think that Lot was “a righteous man” . . . when he offered up his own daughters to the rape gangs to “spare the angels” [who could have taken care of themselves, . . . and DID]? A man who god KNEW would allow himself to get drunk enough to sleep with both daughters on two consecutive nights??? A god who destroys a woman for the “sin” of looking back? A god who shows itself as less than omniscient, in the first place?
The flood. The bible claims that EVERY thought of man was wicked. Really? The thought, “I’d better go out and get some food for my family”. . . is wicked? You really have to read the story fully to see the obvious inputs of man in it. A “god who is sorry he made them”. . . . and has a “heart” that is grieved? Angels who come to have sex with earth women, . . . and them giving birth to giants? Seriously. It is SO obvious that the story was a fable, never meant to be taken literally. One of the thousands of stories of men, later idolized as “the truth”.
All of this I say with the understanding that such a “god” as this never existed. One MAY very well exist, but it isn’t the biblical one.
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reality_check
Posted on October 24, 2012 at 8:32pmI wish I could understand the depths of all your misunderstandings and distortions and where they come from. I genuinely do. You clearly have issues far beyond my grasp of biblical understanding.
I answer one claim then you go off on another tangent.
Very simply put you have three basic self-inflicted problems.
A misunderstanding of God’s character
A misunderstanding of God’s creation
A misunderstanding of God’s Word
For certain, there are apparent difficulties that arise when one begins studying the Bible. But a person should not assume God doesn’t exist and/or the Bible is in error just because he encounters a problem in the Bible that you can’t immediately understand or explain. The scientist doesn’t throw out science just because he/she sees something in the physical world he can’t immediately explain. Neither should we do the same with theology or the study of Scripture. Misunderstandings like those committed by you are the result of not thoroughly investigating matters or dismissing a belief based on a presupposition that is buried deep in a person’s heart or lifestyle (or both). And the danger in both cases is something Pascal warned about many years ago: “People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.” What self-described atheists find attractive about denying God is that they think if they deny Him, they will never have to deal with Him in any way. Your choice t
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reality_check
Posted on October 24, 2012 at 9:14pmW hy do you insist on looking at everything backwards?
God disapproves of all false religions, but He allows them to exist because He has created us with the capacity to make choices, including bad choices. He has also given us the ability to understand how important this decision is and to sort out the evidence and make the right choice if we really have the desire to do so. Jesus told the Jews of His day that if anyone really wanted to do the will of God, he or she would know what teachings were true (John 7.17). I suspect most atheists have not been able to find God for the same reason that most burglars cannot find a policeman!
one of the reasons that the Lord is so strong in the Old Testament and allows death is to ensure that the future messianic line would remain intact. Satan begai his attempt to destroy God’s people in the Garden of Eden, by also trying to corrupt the world (which led to Noah’s Flood), by trying to destroy Israel with attacking armies, and by encouraging Israel to fall into idolatry by exposure to other cultures as well as intermarrying women from those cultures. The result of both the idolatry and the interbreeding would have been the failure of the prophecies that foretold of the coming Messiah which specified which family line the Messiah would come through. The Messiah, Jesus, would be the one who would die for the sins of the world and without that death there would be no atonement. Without the atonement, all people would be lost.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 24, 2012 at 10:34pmRealitycheck, . . . it’s really quite simple. The reason you think that I am “misunderstanding” is because you are so ingrained, . . . so hopelessly dependent upon your religion that you fail to see beyond your indoctrination. If you were shown the actual truth of the early hebrew religion, . . . of the way the bible was constructed, you would still see it as “misunderstanding on the part of the non-saved person” who doesn’t have the discernment of the holy spirit, thus could never understand it”.
Well, you are free to hold to your religious stance. I was just like you are now, several years ago, . . . and for many years. I thought as you. I “knew god was real” and often did as you are doing here, . . .defending my faith against the “evil non-religious people on forums”.
However, when I actually took the time to REALLY study the bible, and journal my thoughts at that time, I discovered that I found more in those pages that I didn’t like at all, . . . not out of rebellion or “misunderstanding”. . . .but by seeing things as they truly were. If you really want to know my thoughts on the bible, and religion in general, feel free to get my book from lulu.com with the title My Case Against Faith.
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on October 25, 2012 at 12:46pmREALITYCHECK
No back and forth spin here. I’ve maintained consistently that God created evil and is ultimately responsible for the fall of man and a potential eternity in hell fire. Moreover, I’ve sighted multiple verses in separate books that show God did indeed create evil. You have responded with conjecture.
Destroying people He created worldwide in the flood for being the way they are is ‘righteous’? And was Noah able to travel the world to preach to everyone in that 100 years? I think not. But I chuckle at your further attempts to justify for God what you would condemn in nearly every other known being as genocide.
Did God destroy the righteous with the wicked? Depends, I suppose. I imagine you think the only ‘righteous’ or innocent were on Noah’s boat. But what of the young children who died in the flood? Their murder was righteous? And when God commanded David to kill every man, woman, child and beast in towns, how do you hold the children who were murdered as anything other than innocent? And people say Atheists have no grip on morality…
Skeptics like me contend that God created evil because He said He did in the Bible. If you’ve even read the whole bible, you have an extremely limited, pro-God view of what you’ve read. You’ve applied no critical thinking to the whole story, you’ve merely taken God’s ‘goodness’ for granted and incontravertible. If God exists, He IS the author of evil. He said it Himself.
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reality_check
Posted on October 26, 2012 at 10:26pmDeavon, you and I are nothing alike and I do thank God for that. In the atheistic world, There is no right and no wrong, no dark and no light in your world of colorless mediocrity There is nothing to even live for, is there? It is all just a “thing” that happened out of nowhere with no hope of knowledge and understanding.
FYI, I come here as a free American to express my opinion. If that bothers you in some way, then possibly you should look the other way when I post, because I will always respond, no matter the subject, when the other person is spouting misinformation, propaganda, and lies.
I could say you come here looking for some type of validation that your misinformed opinions actually do matter outside the front door of your house. That you’re hoping beyond hope that someone, somewhere will notice you. The more desperate your attacks become, the more plausible a scenario that seems to me.
No offense, but if your reasoning is as bad in your book you’re trying to hawk as it has been on this thread , I wouldn’t waste my time.
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reality_check
Posted on October 26, 2012 at 11:03pmDiamond,
You’re going in circles and have said nothing new or creative in over a week. Colt1860 and then myself have answered your false claims time after time. What else is there?
The Lord signally honored human beings by granting us the personal power of choice. Once such action was taken, the Creator is not morally culpable if the gift of choice is abused, and the possessor thereof elects to pursue the road of danger and destruction.
Is the designer or manufacturer of an automobile morally responsible for the drunk driver who runs down and kills an innocent child? And what of the godly mother who made every effort to raise her children in harmony with the Lord’s will; is she accountable for the actions of a wayward offspring who robs a bank or commits murder? These questions hardly need an expressed answer.
And so, while God is the Maker of men, he is not morally indictable for the follies of those upon whom he bestowed one of the greatest gifts possible, that of genuine freedom.
Those who respect the Bible as the inspired Word of God need to realize that though they may encounter certain passages of Scripture that seem difficult to understand initially, there are adequate explanations for these texts. By means of thorough research, we can discover many of the answers that will help solve these problems.
If we have not yet found all the answers, we ought never to foolishly charge God with error, which is your constant foolish problem.
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DeavonReye
Posted on October 30, 2012 at 10:01amYou see it that way because you’re already too hopelessly indoctrinated in your fantasy. So, screw you. If there is ANYONE here that is “misinformed”, it would be you. You have bought into your modern version of christianity, hook, line, and sinker, . . . . .and don’t even realize how you have been duped by it. . . . . . and refuse [because you're indoctrinated to the extreme] to actually see the error in your belief system. So, spare me your righteous indignation. It is as useless as your god claims.
And it obviously shows since you spout the same crap as most other theists that “atheists see no right and no wrong, dark or light, . . nothing to live for” garbage. You . . . .ARE WRONG!!!! Come to terms with it. Accept it. Stop being a slave to your fantasy world. If MY words offend you, or make you mad, by all means, DO NOT POST where I post. There. DONE!
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Cavallo
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:08pmJust as long as they don’t try to legally change their individual names to something Christian, right? Maybe that Pastor who wanted his name changed to Christisking should move to Texas?
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huey6367
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:06pmThere is still justice in this country.
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encinom
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:13pmJust not in Texas.
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DEFCON4
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:39pm@encinom= Don’t Mess With Texas!!!!
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Duddio
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:47pmESPECIALLY in Texas…..
Funny how liberals are in love with the First Amendment for porn and “piss Christ”, but refuse to recognize that the same amendment enshrines the freedom of religion and religious exercise or expression.
That’s why the law recognizes student-led prayer and Christian groups even in gubbamint skools.
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nesmond
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:50pmI will believe there is still some justice in this country when Romney wins and osama is found to be the poser/traitor many believe he is, will be found hiding out in a hole in the ground just like saddam. Then we can have a nice legal trial and if found guilty of high treason and espionage by a court of law, then, for the sake of closure, publicly execute him. May God have mercy on his soul.
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EtchASketch
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:04pmFYI,
The-Monk is a paid troll…
Don’t bother replying to it because that’s what it wants.
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kaydeebeau
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:21pmI think you meant encinomorn -
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Wool-Free Vision
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:26pmWhoever paid him must have gotten their money’s worth. Look at you, spreading lies about a good man like The_Monk, could you possibly be a more obvious DNC shill? (Hint: the answer is no)
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Ben__Franklin
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:27pmGood afternoon Crap Weasle
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The-Monk
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 3:45pmWhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa….
The poor widdle paid troll doesn’t like me… LMAO@U
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The-Monk
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:20pm@EtchASketch
Better hurry up……
Almost time to clock out. LMAO@U…….
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mike551
Posted on October 18, 2012 at 4:37pmFish on! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
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