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Faith

Pope Benedict XVI Names 7 New Saints (Meet Them Here)

Oct. 21, 2012 6:29am Billy Hallowell

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI added seven more saints onto the roster of Catholic role models on Sunday, saying their example would strengthen the church it tries to rekindle the faith in places where it’s lagging. Two of them were Americans: Kateri Tekakwitha, the first Native American saint from the U.S. and Mother Marianne Cope, a 19th century Franciscan nun who cared for leprosy patients in Hawaii.

Native Americans in beaded and feathered headdresses and leather-fringed tunics sang songs to Kateri as the sun rose over St. Peter’s Square ahead of the Mass. Also taking part was Sharon Smith, whose cure from complications from pancreatitis was deemed a “miracle” by the Vatican, paving the way for Mother Marianne to be canonized.

In his homily, Benedict praised each of the seven new saints as examples for the entire church, calling Cope a “shining” example for Catholics and Kateri an inspiration to indigenous faithful across North America.

Pope Benedict XVI arrives to celebrate a canonization ceremony, in St. Peter’s Square, at the Vatican, Sunday, Oct. 21, 2012. The pontiff will canonize seven people, Kateri Tekakwitha, Maria del Carmen, Pedro Calungsod, Jacques Berthieu, Giovanni Battista Piamarta, Mother Marianne Cope, and Anna Shaeffer. Credit: AP

“With heroic courage they spent their lives in total consecration to the Lord and in the generous service of their brethren,” he said.

Pilgrims from around the world attended the Mass, which started with the head of the Vatican’s saint-making office reading aloud each of the names of the seven new saints in Latin, drawing cheers from the crowd.

“It’s so nice to see God showing all the flavors of the world,” marveled Gene Caldwell, a Native American member of the Menominee reservation in Neopit, Wisconsin who attended with his wife, Linda. “The Native Americans are enthralled” to have Kateri canonized, he said.

Cheers rose up again when Benedict, speaking in Latin, declared each of the seven saints and worthy of veneration by the entire church.

“It’s amazing!” said Sheila Austin, a nurse who traveled with pilgrims from Syracuse, New York, for Mother Marianne’s canonization. “There have been people working for many years so that today would come about.”

The canonization coincided with a Vatican meeting of the world’s bishops on trying to revive Christianity in places where it’s fallen by the wayside. Several of the new saints were missionaries, making clear the pope hopes their example will be relevant today as the Catholic Church tries to hold onto its faithful in the face of competition from evangelical churches in Africa and Latin America, increasing secularization in the West and disenchantment with the church over the clerical sex abuse scandal in Europe and beyond.

A faithful wearing Indian headress attends a special mass to name seven new saints in St Peter’s square at Vatican on October 21, 2012. Pope Benedict XVI named today seven new saints, Kateri Tekakwitha of the US, Jacques Berthieu of France, Maria Anna Cope of Germany, Pedro Calungsod from the Philippines, Maria Schaffer of Germany, Giovanni Battista Piamarta of Italy, Maria del Carmen of Spain, marking the start of a ‘Year of Faith’ aimed at countering the rising tide of secularism in the West. Credit: AFP/Getty Images

One of the new saints was Pedro Calungsod, a Filipino teenager who helped Jesuit priests convert natives in Guam in the 17th century but was killed by spear-wielding villagers opposed to the missionaries’ efforts to baptize their children.

Rome’s sizeable Filipino expat community came out in droves for the Mass, including Marianna Dieza, a 39-year-old housekeeper who said it was a day of pride for all Filipinos. “We are especially proud because he is so young,” she said.

The two American saints actually hail from roughly the same place – what is today upstate New York – although they lived two centuries apart.

Known as the “Lily of the Mohawks,” Kateri was born in 1656 to a pagan Iroquois father and an Algonquin Christian mother. Her parents and only brother died when she was 4 during a smallpox epidemic that left her badly scarred and with impaired eyesight. She went to live with her uncle, a Mohawk, and was baptized Catholic by Jesuit missionaries. But she was ostracized and persecuted by other natives for her faith, and she died in what is now Canada when she was 24.

Speaking in English and French, in honor of Kateri’s Canadian ties, Benedict noted how unusual it was in Kateri’s culture for her to choose to devote herself to her Catholic faith.

“May her example help us to live where we are, loving Jesus without denying who we are,” Benedict said. “Saint Kateri, protectress of Canada and the first Native American saint, we entrust you to the renewal of the faith in the first nations and in all of North America!”

Cope is revered among many Catholics in Hawaii, where she arrived from New York in 1883 to care for leprosy patients on Kalaupapa, an isolated peninsula on Molokai Island where Hawaii governments forcibly exiled them for decades. At the time, there was widespread fear of the disfiguring disease, which can cause skin lesions, mangled fingers and toes and lead to blindness.

Two nuns hold images of Kateri Tekakwitha, the first Native American to achieve sainthood, as they wait for the start of a canonization ceremony celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI, in St. Peter’s Square, at the Vatican, Sunday, Oct. 21, 2012. The pontiff will canonize seven people, Kateri Tekakwitha, Maria del Carmen, Pedro Calungsod, Jacques Berthieu, Giovanni Battista Piamarta, Mother Marianne Cope, and Anna Shaeffer. Credit: AP

Cope, however, led a band of Franciscan nuns to the peninsula to care for the patients, just as Saint Damien, a Belgian priest, did in 1873. He died of the disease 16 years later and was canonized in 2009.

“At a time when little could be done for those suffering from this terrible disease, Marianne Cope showed the highest love, courage and enthusiasm,” Benedict said in his homily. “She is a shining and energetic example of the best of the tradition of Catholic nursing sisters and of the spirit of her beloved St. Francis.”

Two-hundred fifty pilgrims from Hawaii traveled to Rome for Mother Marianne’s canonization, including nine Kalaupapa patients.

Another pilgrim was Smith, of Syracuse, New York, whose 2005 cure from complications from pancreatitis, an inflammation of the pancreas, was declared medically inexplicable by the Vatican – the “miracle” needed for Mother Marianne to be named a saint. In an interview last week, Smith recounted how she had fainted one day in her home, an allergic reaction to medication she was taking for a kidney transplant, and awoke in the hospital to find that doctors weren’t giving her much time to live.

Her disease was eating away at her insides, causing her stomach to detach from her intestines. Doctors said they couldn’t repair it. At a certain point, a nun pinned a bag of ashes and dirt from Mother Marianne’s grave on her and prayed.

“I had never heard of her, but we continued to pray,” Smith said. “And I just, I started getting better.”

Pope Benedict XVI, center, arrives to celebrate a canonization ceremony in St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican, Sunday, Oct. 21, 2012. The pontiff will canonize seven people, Kateri Tekakwitha, Maria del Carmen, Pedro Calungsod, Jacques Berthieu, Giovanni Battista Piamarta, Mother Marianne Cope, and Anna Shaeffer. Credit: AP

“I believe in miracles, but I don’t know whether it was all the prayers, or the pinning of the relic, but I know that something worked and I’m here for some reason,” Smith said.

The Vatican’s complicated saint-making procedure requires that the Vatican certify a “miracle” was performed through the intercession of the candidate – a medically inexplicable cure that can be directly linked to the prayers offered by the faithful. One miracle is needed for beatification, a second for canonization.

The other new saints are: Jacques Berthieu, a 19th century French Jesuit who was killed by rebels in Madagascar, where he had worked as a missionary; Giovanni Battista Piamarta, an Italian who founded a religious order in 1900 and established a Catholic printing and publishing house in his native Brescia; Carmen Salles Y Barangueras, a Spanish nun who founded a religious order to educate children in 1892; and Anna Schaeffer, a 19th century German lay woman who became a model for the sick and suffering after she fell into a boiler and badly burned her legs. The wounds never healed, causing her constant pain.

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Comments (420)

Jgriff
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:59am
Ledger says it better than I do here.

I sustain and grow in my faith by the three “S”s: Scripture, Sacraments, and Saints.
I look forward to learning about the lives of our new Saints.
I thank The Blaze for reporting this story.

The Catholic church selects people who live exemplary lives and can serve as models to us all. I do not pray to saints, but knowing that they are alive and with God in heaven, I can speak with them as I can with anyone who has entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

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- hi
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:35am
  I believe Jesus died on the cross to save me from my sins and I will have eternal life in heaven. “for God so loved the world He gave His only son that whosoever believs in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.”What do Catholics believe? If there is purgatory , what was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross?
  
  Report this comment
- theninthplanet
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:56am
  @HI
  If you can’t be bothered to take the time to research and learn about Catholicism, why should anyone bother to take the time to spoon feed it to you?
  Especially, I might add, after you’ve taken such a confrontational position, *I know I’m right and you’re wrong even though I don’t know what you believe!*
  
  Report this comment
- hi
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:13pm
  9thplanet
  I’m not being confrontational. I have a lot of Catholic friends and want to know. If they asked Jesus into heart as written above, I don’t care about all of their Rosary Beads, works and fluff. God doesn’t want us argueing over the fluff. Just making sure they are going to heaven. So do they ask Jesus into heart and know He died for their sins?
  
  Report this comment
- hi
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:13pm
  9th and I consider this taking time to find out.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:20pm
  @Theninth
  How many unrepentant pro-abortion activists would you find in Jesus’s church and how many do you find in the Catholic Church? The answer to Jesus’ church is zero. “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.” and ” “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” You can answer for the Catholic Church.
  
  If an elder in Jesus’ church molested a boy, would His church’s response be? We know the answer is that Jesus’ church is, “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.” And, “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.” And you can tell us what the Catholic response has been.
  
  Report this comment
- theninthplanet
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:23pm
  @HI
  http://www.aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/clarification_good_works/
  
  Report this comment
- jeffile
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:31pm
  No disrespect intended but praying to a saint for help is like praying to the kitchen sink. Only God can grant prayers and the only intercessor is Jesus. Moreover, how does a human know the heart of another? Can anyone say another is truly repentant and believes Jesus is the only way to heaven? Can anyone say that ones good deeds are for their own glory? It’s the same as in politics. Politicians talk a good story but most are in the game for their own benefit. Yes, some politicians actually tell you where they stand on issues and actually talk the talk and walk the walk but they are few and far between. The same applies to supposedly Godly people who are in the game because of false sense of self importance.
  
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- hi
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:39pm
  9th
  That doesn’t say if they asked Jesus into their hearts knowing He died on cross for their sins.
  
  I believe works are awesome and they get one rewards in heaven. But it has nothing to do withsalvation itself
  
  Report this comment
- Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:46pm
  Read your Bible. Every believer is a Saint. Every believer is a High Priest. Every believers Father is the Lord. Every believers Saviour is Jesus Christ. The book of Galations teaches “good works” plus Jesus Christ and you are lost. You are not truly saved. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father but by me.” “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.” “For by grace are you saved by faith, not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone could boast.” The Holy Bible. READ THE LAST VERSE VERY VERY CAREFULLY. YOUR ETERNAL LIFE DEPENDS UPON IT. “not of works” “free gift”
  strictly “by faith” There are no good works that are good enough to save anyone. Jesus is the only Way.
  To everyone enjoy this day of rest the Lord has given us.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:39pm
  And by their fruits they will be known, so yes we can know if “another is truly repentant and believes Jesus is the only way to heaven”. Any “good deed” doesn’t come from any human endeavor, but from God the Father who is the author of all goodness. As for importance… there are plenty of important and indispensable people at the cemetery.
  
  Report this comment
- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:57pm
  And once again my impatience in posting on my handheld iOS has chunked my post. The first part will not be shown since duplicate submissions are nullified. Will try later.
  
  Report this comment
- rickc34
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:20pm
  No time to argue over religion, pray for each other and our Nation. But I am not surprised that Obama did not make the list.
  
  Report this comment
- Platonician
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 3:52pm
  Please brethren, stop arguing, were are all ONE in Christ and historically we were all Catholics before the Obamas of Christianity: Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, etc destroyed our unity, out of personal ambition.
  
  Now we have other enemies we have to fight: Islam, Atheism, nihilism or they will enslave us and destroy us as Christians. Btw the Saints of the Catholic Church have fought Islam with the sword for centuries.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 4:21pm
  Yeah, God forbid anyone bring to light the Church completely ignoring God’s Word. Just shut up and follow Catholicism blindly, eh Plato?
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 4:47pm
  @JEFFILE
  
  Haha, what a hilarious statement.
  
  “Praying to a Saint is like praying to a kitchen sink…….only God can grant prayers.”
  
  Praying to ANYTHING is praying to a kitchen sink.
  
  Prayers don’t get answered. Miracles don’t happen.
  
  Report this comment
- Platonician
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 5:58pm
  @CafeConservative
  
  The Catholic Church has given to the World the finest philosophers and theologians, they have tried for centuries to understand the Word of God, they still try. It’s not a simple task for our poor human intellects. If you can bring light to the Church, I encourage you to write a treatise on the points you consider important and debate them with Catholics and yes, we should follow the Church, not blindly, but enlightened by its tradition and its 20 centuries old Magisterium.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:20pm
  Ahh the Magisterium what a lovely and quite unbiblical concept which essentially says, “sure God may give you spiritual powers to include understanding of the Bible, but unless the Chuch officially recognizes it, God’s gift is completely meaningless.” That Magisterium.
  
  It’s sad that Catholics rely on philosophers and theologians for their understanding instead of simply relying on the Spirit. I will quote it yet again, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?”
  But we have the mind of Christ.”
  
  Feel free to share the mind of philosophers and theologians; I will share the mind of Christ.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:26pm
  Why isn’t it that there isn’t a single Catholic here who can explain why their Church is still plagued by pedophiles and abortion advocates? 1 Corinthians 5 explains explicitly what happens when you allow such people to remain in a church and the Catholic Church has made a conscious decision to allow them to remain.
  
  Report this comment
- may40
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:46pm
  I’m sorry to tell you this but there is NOWHERE in the Bible where it states that the believers who have gone on before us can hear any prayers. It’s Jesus Who died for you and hears our prayers. Be very careful when you take your eyes off Him and put it elsewhere…that’s a very slippery slope. No man can pick and choose “Saints”. Believers are saints and again there is nowhere in the Word of God that states otherwise.
  
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- PaxInVeritate
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:59pm
  PLATONICIAN is right. The enemy is Satan, Anti-Christ and false prophet. Do you realize that you are causing Jesus Christ more suffering. How about fasting and praying that the Catholic Church can live up to the ideal? Why tear each other apart? It only serves Satan.
  
  Report this comment
- Platonician
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 5:10am
  @CafeConservative
  
  “Feel free to share the mind of philosophers and theologians; I will share the mind of Christ.”
  
  Do you think that you can fully understand by yourself and alone the most precious and deepest knowledge? The Christian Truth. Don’t you think that such an attitude, is childish and even dangerous? Because by rejecting the millennial wisdom of men who have spent their lives studying the Word of God, you deprive yourself of great intellectual tools to confront the enemies of the Faith. You become in fact an easy prey for the atheists and the degenerates. Such pride caused the errors of Luther, etc. thousands died because of it.
  
  “Why isn’t it that there isn’t a single Catholic here who can explain why their Church is still plagued by pedophiles and abortion advocates?”
  
  The Church is not more plagued by pedophiles than most institutions that work with minors. In fact the rate of abuses is lower among catholic institutions than among the general population and secular organizations. Unfortunately you have assimilated the liberal media bias and their anti-christian agenda.
  
  The Catholic Church opposes abortion as a dogma. If some people promoting this crime call themselves catholic, this happens in a particularly depraved society, the USA, where moral relativism is the dominant ideology, but don’t forget that moral relativism is one of the most abhorrent, even though unintended, consequences of protestantism.
  
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- Dismayed Veteran
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:40am
  I am a Catholic. Frankly, I don’t care if Protestants and atheists don’t believe in the concept of sainthood. I am entitled to my beliefs just as you are entitled to yours. I do find it intersting that Protestants and atheists respond to my Church with so much rancor. I have always wondered why.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 4:42pm
  Why?
  
  Mark 7:8″You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:05pm
  Plato, is seems your are trapped by the Church telling you only the magisterium can tell you what the Bible says. I quoted what the Bible said about understanding the Word. Just as with every bit of Scripture I’ve quoted here, you could not address it. What did you not understand? Why ask questions that have already been answered by God’s Word and laid before you? Does Scripture confuse Catholics when not presented and explained by a priest? If so, ask what is meant by the Scripture. Quit ignoring it. It creates the impression that you either have contempt for Scripture or simply are confused by it. Neither option bodes well for you or your faith.
  
  You speak of childish attitudes but I’m not going to entertain your question while you turn a blind eye to the childish attitudes among the Catholics here. It’s pure hypocrisy. The same goes for accusations of pride. I’m sorry you confuse my confidence in God’s Word as pride just because you are so ignorant of it.
  
  Regarding pedophilia,I have not bought into the media. I acknowledged sexual problems in protestant churches and distinctly noted how they treated the problem but Catholics hid it. They took a biblical approach but the Catholics didn’t.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:17pm
  You condemn protestantism for moral relativism while completely ignoring the sins within your own Church. For the record, you could categorize my faith as “protestant” but there’s a reason I’ve been placing it in quotes. I belong to no church or sect but Christianity. Any church, to include liberal protestant churches, that does not follow God’s Word, is NOT a Christian church. It is a church of false prophets and false teachers. How do we know which are true?
  
  We know them by their fruit. You can try and dismiss me by lumping me into a faith I don’t belong to but it just proves that yet again, the Catholics in this thread rely on assumptions and not facts for their arguments. Every assumption made about my faith by Catholics in this thread has been wrong without exception.
  
  In other words, you keep turning a blind eye to the sin in your Church while trying to tie to me other churches plagued by sin that I don’t even belong to just to tear me down or somehow justify your Church’s sin. How about you Catholics start holding the Church accountable?
  
  There are good Catholics. They run the adoption agencies. They run Catholic Social Services. They do other good things and they should be praised for it. But it is all overshadowed by the evil allowed to run rampant in the Church and no amount of good works can ever overcome the tolerance of evil.
  
  Report this comment
theotherberean
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:52am
I was born and raised a Catholic.

Then I read the Bible.

Most people who belong to one of the pseudo-Christian religions such as Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc., strive to be good people and generally have good intentions. And that would be fine if salvation were won with good intentions.

However, there is only one God and He has told us how to worship Him. If we do not worship Him properly, in the way He has instructed us to worship Him, then we are blaspheming His Name and worshiping idols.

Such it is with the pseudo-Christian religions.

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- L.B.Stephens
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:31pm
  Who, in your opinion would qualify to be recognized as a true Christian?
  What religion would they adhere too?
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:24pm
  @LB,
  They rely on the Bible. And when it comes to tradition, they realize it wasn’t something Jesus was referring to that would be invented later but something the Jews had been practicing for thousands of years. There is no need to label it because it’s not about a name but a way to live life by following His Word.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:31pm
  True Christianity in practice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrDbgjLKoxU
  
  How can an ARCHBISHOP give communion to men in mocking drag? What were these clowns doing in mass in the first place? A 10 year-old Christian could figure this out but not a Catholic Archbishop? So much for Holy sacraments, eh?
  
  Report this comment
- rickc34
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:31pm
  The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the truth and the life and no man comes unto the Father except through him. I am also a former Catholic before I accepted Jesus Christ as more Lord and Savior and put all my trust in him. But I have learned it is better to do show and tell to lead people to the Lord and not start a fight to see who is right, they will make their own decision , be patient and kind and it is ok to have a sense of humor. I have friends of different faiths and share with them, the most important thing is who do you say Jesus Christ is. Is he your Lord and Savior .
  
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- SonOfThunder
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 3:52pm
  The pope does not names saints. Christians are saints according to the Bible. You want to be a Christian??? Repent your sins and put your trust in Jesus alone. Catholics believe in Jesus plus works. Catholics like Mormons and Muslim have the wrong God, Jesus and the wrong salvation. Being an ex Catholic myself of 46 years I was headed straight to the lake of fire. Until I read the Bible and was finally told the truth of Word of God I was lost. Catholics run from your cult and lies of the Roman Catholic Church.
  About your saints that is idol worship. Here is what Catholics and what Christains believe. There is a huge difference.
  Saints and Priests
  
  A Christian becomes a saint when the Spirit baptizes him into the body of Christ. And He gave some…for the equipping of the saints…the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-12).
  
  A Catholic becomes a saint only if the Pope canonizes them. This occurs when he solemnly proclaims that they practiced a heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace (828).
  
  A Christian is a priest. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (1 Peter 2:9).
  
  A Catholic needs a priest. Catholic priests are said to be apostolic successors and guarantee that Christ is acting in the sacraments to dispense divine life (1120-1131).
  
  Report this comment
- proliance
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 3:53pm
  It always tickles me to hear from “former Catholics who now know better.” Its people like this who have no idea what the Church believes in or stands for. Their parents did a lousy job of raising them and they became susceptible to lies and half-truths. And now they get to go on the Internet and show their ignorance.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 4:26pm
  So who is more of a Christian, Proliance? The pedophilic Catholic priest? The pro-abortion Catholic layman? Or the man who lives a righteous life according to God’s Word but claims no sect?
  
  Report this comment
- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 5:26pm
  Hey all you anti catholics. Explain why all the apostles and early christians are buried in our churches…. also unlike you I guess we believe the souls of people live on after death and that prayer is not always worship. We can ask for their assistance by praying with us for our needs. Ever asked someone to pray for you??? As far as Mary all of you are wrong, the Hail Mary prayer is half scripture.Luke 1:28 and 1:42 says “Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you, blessed art thou omong women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.” how about that Catholics and scripture … amazing stuff huh. We added the second part Holy Mary Mother of God (Jesus was God … right???) pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen. You people are so ignorant and judgemental. Where in your bible did God leave you in judgement of others???
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 5:30pm
  @other Berean
  
  Do you believe that when you recieve communion you are recieving the body and blood of Jesus??
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:48pm
  “Hey all you anti catholics. Explain why all the apostles and early christians are buried in our churches….”
  We worship a living God? We let the dead bury the dead?
  
  “also unlike you I guess we believe the souls of people live on after death and that prayer is not always worship. We can ask for their assistance by praying with us for our needs.”
  Yeah, we just ask God, through His Son for help. Your way is obviously better. Why go to God when you can go to a dead “saint.” By the way, you Catholics still have been unable to explain away the Bible saying all believers are saints. Why go to the dead ones when you can pray with those around you? I’d much rather pray with a living saint because I know that when two or more gather, God is there with them.
  
  “Where in your bible did God leave you in judgement of others???” Would it matter if there was an answer? You refuse to listen to the Word because you prefer the words of men over the Word of God and you keep showing it every time it’s presented you. You call us ignorant but it’s obvious that when it comes to God’s Words, it’s the Catholics here who have no clue. “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?” … “Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!” … “But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.”
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:34pm
  We do believe all are saints and called to be saints. The apostle Paul makes this clear. Souls live on do they not Cafe?? We have eternal life through the sacrifice Christ made for us. Why do you limit yourself to just the living Cafe?? The church simply recognizes people who lived exemplary lives. Dont worry you are a saint too as soon as you stop spewing your venom.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 4:40pm
  @RANDYLEE “Do you believe that when you recieve communion you are recieving the body and blood of Jesus??”
  
  No. Cannibalism is against the law.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 4:45pm
  @LB “Who, in your opinion would qualify to be recognized as a true Christian?
  
  Someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.
  
  @LB “What religion would they adhere too?”
  
  Christianity. Duh
  
  Report this comment
- edmundburk
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:36pm
  Insert general anti-catholic statemdents here:
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:12pm
  I can dig this whole “free Christianity” thing, make it up as you go. Think of it, you don’t have to go to a church on Sunday, you don’t have to pay tithing to any church, you don’t have to follow any commandments because all you have to do is believe in Jesus, He doesn’t require anything of you. How do you become a member of this Christian church? Believe my Jesus. Do you need baptism, the Holy Ghost? No, that was done away with when the Apostles died, HELLO!. Well, what’s the authority behind this church of yours? Why, the Bible you ding dong! How did you get that Bible? Well you dummy, it floated down from the skies, written by God Himself, DUH! Where did you get your belief in the trinity doctrine from? God told it to us through the Bible, not through the Catholic church IDIOT! Who decides what the interpretation of the Bible is? Me you dingus! I took online greek! You don’t need the Holy Ghost.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:42pm
  Tell us Joey, what is so offensive to you about following God’s Word? Is it that God tells us in His Word that our relationship is with Him and the He gifts us with the Spirit that will lead us to understanding? Is it that we can discern for ourselves what’s right and wrong with the help to the Spirit? Is it the refusal to follow a Church that embraces evil yesterday, today, and promises no change in its behavior in the future? How many children will the Church offer on it’s altar to priests and abortion advocates before YOU stand up and say, “I understand good and evil and no more will you do evil in my LORD’S church.”?
  
  The problem is you don’t see it as the Lord’s Church. It’s the Church of Roman Catholics and Roman Catholicism comes first and you and the Lord are second otherwise you wouldn’t tolerate one bit of evil to persist in your churches. But we continue to find defense of evil because your are more invested in your “team” winning than doing what is right and righteous.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:33pm
  “what is so offensive to you about following God’s Word?”
  Depends on who is deciding what God’s word is. It’s offensive to me when jihadists follow what god’s word tells them, and when evangelical’s god tells them to preach that all you need to do is believe in Jesus, nothing more nothing less. The real question is, who has the authority to interpret God’s word. All I hear are a bunch of people who broke away from a church, but still claim that the book this church organized was organized by inspired men of God, and that claim the trinity doctrine that this same church created as their own. “They’re a cult, but everything we believe is from them”. How does that work? Were they a cult from the beginning? Did they start with authority from Christ? If not, then what authority did they have to organize the Bible and to create the doctrine of the trinity? If they were inspired to organize the Bible, then why did protestants take out the apocrypha? If the Bible is all we need, where is the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”? I see thousands of “Christian” churches who all have different views of what the Bible says, what makes yours right? At least the Catholic church can claim some kind of authority from Peter, you have absolutely nothing, especially since none of the reformers claimed they were called of God to organize His church
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:50pm
  And BTW, I’m not Catholic, but I’ll defend any religion that gets attacked by the churchless evangelicals who hide behind the “Bible Christian” mask because they aren’t able to defend their own faith.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:42am
  1-“Depends on who is deciding what God’s word is.” The Word says what it is and how it can be understood. TWhat part of that is so confusing to you?
  
  “It’s offensive to me when jihadists follow what god’s word tells them,” Moral relativism. Your silly position is Jihadis are like Christians and their book is just like the Christian’s, eh?
  
  “and when evangelical’s god tells them to preach that all you need to do is believe in Jesus, nothing more nothing less. The real question is, who has the authority to interpret God’s word.” I’ll repeat for the umpteenth time, the Spirit, as the Word so plainly says.
  
  “All I hear are a bunch of people who broke away from a church,” How can I have broken away from a Church I never belonged to? It’s funny you claim to not be a Catholic be you sure do regurgitate their talking points. You realize that the Old Testament predates the Church, right? You realize the Books of the New Testament predate the Church right? You realize that Jesus is the Word and He predates the Church right? So who broke away from what? Catholics claim a special relationship with Jesus and the disciples but their actions are consistent with neither.
  
  “but still claim that the book this church organized was organized by inspired men of God, and that claim the trinity doctrine that this same church created as their own.” I claim to follow the Trinty as they do? Boy you are just like these Catholics. Full of incorrect
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:43am
  2-““They’re a cult, but everything we believe is from them”. How does that work?” They’re a cul and believe in everything that predates them. Just because a bunch of guys later recognized what wa already in practice, does not mean those mean invented it. In fact, were there copyright laws in place at the time, the Church would have been sued into non-existence.
  
  “Were they a cult from the beginning? Did they start with authority from Christ?” You tell me. You’ve assumed the role of defending Catholics from those God awful Bible thumpers.
  
  “If not, then what authority did they have to organize the Bible” Um, people assume all kinds of authority they do not have. Just watch Obama in action.
  “and to create the doctrine of the trinity?” Why does it require authority to create a doctrine? You can just do it. People eiter accept it or they don’t.
  
  “If they were inspired to organize the Bible, then why did protestants take out the apocrypha?” Where is the evidence that they were ever “inspired” and if ther is some sort of evidence you know of, what is the source of that inspiration? A sunny day? A squirrel? A poem?
  
  “If the Bible is all we need, where is the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”?” Yeah, becaue the Bible never ever mentions false teachers, false prophets, or differing doctrine?
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:47am
  -Last
  “I see thousands of “Christian” churches who all have different views of what the Bible says, what makes yours right?” Why aren’t you asking that of Catholics? They have gay Catholics and pro-”choice” Catholics, and feminist Catholics. They’re not as united as they pretend to be. Why does one diocese favor harboring illegal aliens in violation of the law and another doesn’t?
  
  “At least the Catholic church can claim some kind of authority from Peter, “ Yes, an empty claim.
  
  “you have absolutely nothing,” Just the Spirit.
  
  “especially since none of the reformers claimed they were called of God to organize His church” Actually every single Christian is called but your ignorance of the Bible is only second to that of the Catholics here.
  
  “And BTW, I’m not Catholic, but I’ll defend any religion that gets attacked by the churchless evangelicals who hide behind the “Bible Christian” mask because they aren’t able to defend their own faith. “ It’s defended itself find. You’re obviously biased and have absolutely no clue as to what you’re talking about. But we’ll continue to laugh at your claims of no being a Catholic while touting everyone of their talking points. I guess if you’re not a Catholic you’re just their useful idiot.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:18am
  lets focus on what your overall point is
  “The Word says what it is and how it can be understood. TWhat part of that is so confusing to you?”
  Why does the Word tells thousands of different Christian churches what is the interpretation? is God a God of confusion? or do you claim all Chrisitans agree on certain doctrines such as baptism and forgiveness of sins?in other words, what makes you right and baptists wrong, or what makes baptists right and methodists wrong, or what makes methodists right and lutherans wrong etc. im pretty sure they all read the same book and pray to the same God, why does the Word tell them different things? whos false and who isnt?
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:48am
  and with staying on the topic of who decides who is right, your claim that
  “Actually every single Christian is called but your ignorance of the Bible is only second to that of the Catholics here”
  The Bible tends to disagree with this belief of yours. Hebrew 5 talks about High priests called of God, and verse 4 says “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.”
  Jesus Christ was very specific about who had the power to baptize and give the Holy Ghost. He laid hands on people and gave them this power, people can’t take it upon themselves, they have to be called of God like Aaron was. How was Aaron called?
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:00pm
  “Where is the evidence that they were ever “inspired” and if ther is some sort of evidence you know of, what is the source of that inspiration?”
  I’m not trying to trick you with words, but man, really? You don’t believe the men that compiled the Bible were inspired by God, but you want to believe the book they compiled has everything God intended you to have? I’ll understand if you didn’t read the question right, but I have a hard time believing that Christians don’t think that the men who compiled the Bible were inspired by God.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 2:20pm
  @JOEY8
  
  Respectively,
  
  Your “free Christianity” arguments only demonstrate that you obviously don’t understand what Christianity teaches and are looking at everything through the Joseph Smith looking stone. Christianity is “very” free compared to Mormonism, in that Jesus said “For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matt 11:30 and “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” Rev 3:20.
  
  Yes, it’s that simple for a Christian and of course you don’t understand that because they have you tied up in bondage, working towards your own salvation when in fact it’s a “free gift” of Grace. Salvation for a Christian is by grace, through faith.
  
  All “Christians” believe the same thing about the Nature of Christ.
  
  You chide us for deciding what is and what is not God’s Word, then you chide us for not believing what you think is God’s Word. LoL
  
  You claim apostasy in the church, yet your church teaches that 3 Nephites and John never left the earth, (BofM.III Nephi 28; D.& C. 7) so nothing was lost and there was no complete falling away of John was still hanging around. Why would God wait 1800 years for Joseph Smith to show up?
  
  Cont…
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 2:23pm
  LDS claim Aaronic Priesthood authority, but the Bible claims that Jesus has all Authority in Heaven and on Earth. Matt 28:18, so there is no biblical basis for the doctrine of the LDS “priesthood.”
  
  Even your own standard works demonstrate the error: For example: the PofGP, J.S. History 1:68-73 states that John the Baptist conferred the Aaronic Priesthood on Smith and Cowdery in 1829 “before” they were baptized. That means they were unsaved sinners when they received the priesthood. LDS teach that baptism must precede receiving the priesthood. This disqualifies them both by LDS standards.
  
  John the Baptist then told Joseph to baptize Oliver and Oliver to baptize Joseph. However, Joseph was not baptized himself when he baptized Oliver, so Oliver’s baptism was invalid. Then, they both conferred the Aaronic priesthood on each other, then baptized each other again, when neither of them was qualified by LDS standards to baptize, or hold the Aaronic priesthood.
  
  Oops.
  
  Again, all Authority belongs to Christ, who is “the Word.” The Bible is also “the Word” and therefore the standard and the source of all spiritual wisdom, truth and knowledge. We answer only to Christ. You answer to a man made organization.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 3:09pm
  Hey the other
  If you want to join the conversation , you gotta stay on topic my friend.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 3:46pm
  LoL
  
  Actually I started the thread, and you are the one off topic.
  
  We’re talking about pseudo-Christian religions anyway, and since LDS are not Christians at all, you’re out of your realm of expertise.
  
  Which is why you have such a hard time understanding what it means to be a Christian.
  
  But you certainly are not one if you are LDS.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 4:14pm
  And it just occurred to me that in LDS theology, the Holy Spirit comes only through the “laying on of hands” by those with priesthood authority (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, 1966., p. 438).
  
  Since Joseph Smith was not baptized prior to receiving the priesthood, his priesthood is invalid by LDS standards.
  
  That means every LDS male who has received his “priesthood” from someone who ultimately got it from Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery, received that priesthood in vain.
  
  I hate to break this to you JOEY8 but this means not only are you not a Christian, you are not LDS either. LoL
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 5:53pm
  @theother
  First off, lets start how we always do, with me pointing out something incorrect you said
  ” only through the ” in regards to the Holy Ghost. Wrong. The gift of the Holy Ghost is given through the laying on of hands as it was in Christ’s time through the Apostles. Anyone can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, but to have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is the ability to always have it with you as long as you follow Christ, is given through the laying on of hands by those given power by Jesus Christ. I trust you won’t try that lie anymore, but good job trying to think of something yourself!
  We were discussing authority, and the lack of with “Bible Christians”. So, lets look at your main claim, that:
  “the Bible claims that Jesus has all Authority in Heaven and on Earth. Matt 28:18, so there is no biblical basis for the doctrine of the LDS “priesthood.”
  You only have part of that right. Jesus has all authority, but did you skip the part in the Bible where He gives this power to his Apostles? Quote: In Luke
  “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.”
  And right before His ascension:
  “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
  I’ll continue
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 6:00pm
  You’ll notice if you read the verses before, Christ is talking specifically to the 11 disciples whom He gave power to earlier. I’ll also quote Jesus to Peter,
  “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.”
  Jesus said “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH”, and gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven authority to bind things in heaven and on earth.
  So, your argument is that after giving these men power and authority, and knowing that He wasn’t going to be on earth forever, Jesus took away their authority when He left? You know that is ridiculous.
  I imagine another claim of yours is that Peter or the other disciples never passed down that authority right? Except that Matthew was chosen to replace Judas, and Paul was given this same power and authority to baptize and to give the Holy Ghost AFTER Jesus was gone. The Apostles also attempted to organize and continue to organize Christ’s church, the one He told Peter he would build.
  In our next lesson, we’ll go over how Christ built His church, mainly, the organization or foundation of it, and we can compare it to modern churches.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 6:12pm
  one more part with authority, I skipped when Jesus chose the 70 and sent them out. I was going to cover them in the next lesson of the foundation of Jesus’ church, but I’ll start here: Luke 10
  “After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest”
  Did the 70 send themselves? Did they appoint themselves? Or as it’s written in Hebrews “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.”
  Of course not, the Lord appointed them, just as He did with the Apostles:
  “and when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;”
  Now here’s the cool thing Jesus said to the 70, I’ll even use the NIV translation:
  “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
  That is some power!
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 6:24pm
  Now, how was Christ’s church organized? Sonofthunder used the verse I want to use but this is how he quoted it LOL
  “And He gave some…for the equipping of the saints…the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-12).”
  What did this evangelical leave out with all those dots? Here, I’ll quote the whole thing
  “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
  So, Paul tells the Ephesians that Christ has ascended into heaven to fill all things, BUT, He gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Why did he do that? Oh, Paul tells us:
  to perfect the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ (His church He told Peter He would build). How long will Christ give apostles and prophets? Until we all come in the unity of faith. You can argue whether or not that’s happened, I would say no it hasn’t.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 6:35pm
  Ephesians 2 also tells us of Christ’s church He told Peter He would build
  “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone”
  A foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ the chief corner stone. Can you look at the organization that you belong to and claim it has this same foundation of apostles and prophets, because that’s the foundation Jesus set, with Himself being the chief cornerstone.
  God has constantly given prophets to the earth because “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”
  When people reject the prophets, the people fall into apostasy just like the Jews before Jesus came. Jesus, acting as a prophet, restored truth and revealed His Father’s will to them, just as prophet before Him had done, except Jesus also had the special mission of being the Messiah, the Lamb of God that previous prophets had testified of. Jesus was rejected by His own people. The question is, what happened to the church Jesus told Peter He would set up?
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 6:49pm
  So, what happened to Christ’s church? Jesus warned of what was to come:
  “After my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock”
  “Also, of your ownselves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them”
  “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves”
  “For false Christs and false prophets shall arise … to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect”
  “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many”
  The apostles warned:
  “many false prophets are gone out into the world”
  “there shall be false teachers among you who privily shall bring in damnable heresies”
  “Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse deceiving”
  
  And there is evidence that it was already happening while the apostles were still alive:
  “For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work”
  ” … even now there are many antichrists;”
  “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of anti-christ, …, and even now already is it in the world”
  
  Paul also had to give a special message to the Thessalonians who were very anxious for Christ’s second coming:
  “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christ’s second coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:00pm
  But, all is not lost. Surely, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Surely, he’ll do what he’s done throughout the entire history of the Bible, call another prophet! We are told by Peter
  “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
  The heavens must receive Jesus until the times of restitution of all things. What does that mean? What does restitution mean? Dictionary.com says “restoration to the former or original state or position.”
  Well, isn’t that the same as reforming, as in the reformers? Dictionary.com says reforming is “to change to a better state, form, etc.; improve by alteration, substitution, abolition”
  If Christ’s church fell away, what was needed? An improvement by substitution, or altering what had been changed? Or a complete restoration of the foundation of prophets and apostles with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Peter tells us a restitution of all things is needed. And we know God doesn’t do anything unless He reveals His secrets to His prophets. I love the Bible!
  I
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:07pm
  There is no evidence that Christ’s Church fell away. In fact He said that it most certainly would not. Matt 16:18.
  
  You’ve seen that verse dozens of times yet you still ignore it. I guess it wasn’t translated properly by JS for you?
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:11pm
  JOEY8 said: The gift of the Holy Ghost is given through the laying on of hands as it was in Christ’s time through the Apostles.
  
  Several points:
  
  No one laid hands on the Apostles at Pentecost.
  
  No one laid hands on Jesus when a tongue of fire descended upon Him when He was baptized by John.
  
  “I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?” Gal 3:2
  
  Simon believed before he was baptized Acts 8:9-13.
  
  For brevity, allow me to sum up what you said: You have a “gift, which you call the Holy Spirit and is an “ability” to always have it with you, given by those with power by Jesus Christ
  
  LoL
  
  Question for you: What benefit does this “gift” allow you and what is this “ability?” What is this “power?” Can you give me examples?
  
  JOEY8 said: “Jesus has all authority, but did you skip the part in the Bible where He gives this power to his Apostles?”
  
  Same power as you? I don’t think so.
  
  You speak of power and disciples and power and Peter and Judas and power and how Christ ascended into heaven and “He gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers” power.
  
  And the only problem with the premise of your argument is there is no evidence of this “power,” being exhibited beyond the death of the last Apostle. Zip. Zero. Nada.
  
  And when you talk about Authority, the Bible says Jesus has all Authority.
  
  I also demonstrated how the LDS claim of Aaronic priesthood au
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:13pm
  Here you go Catholics, I got him to say that your church is true! Do one of you want to get his name for baptism?
  Either Christ’s church never fell away and the Catholics are right, or they did fall away, and needed to be restored like Peter said
  (Good job ignoring all of the evidence of the “falling away”, I’m sure you can justify telling Paul he’s wrong)
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:14pm
  So can you cast out demons? Do the blind see, the lame walk and the dead rise at your command?
  
  C’mon now Joey, you don’t really have any “power” now do you, and you can’t fly either. LoL
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:15pm
  as for the “gates of hell shall not prevail”
  Did death (the word “hell” referred to here is really the Greek word Hades, which you probably knew from you online greek class) prevail over Jesus Christ? Of course not. He triumphed over death. But He DID die – yet returned to life, an immortal, glorious, resurrected Being. If Christ, against whom the gates of death did not prevail, could die, then is it not possible that His Church could also die – and later be brought back to life (restored)?
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:18pm
  @theother
  Acts 8:17
  “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”
  You wanna try that one again LOL, or is the Bible incosistant?
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:19pm
  Oops. Ran out of room.
  
  I also demonstrated how the LDS claim of Aaronic priesthood authority cannot be true for several valid reasons. Scripturally, logically and by witness of the theological errors found in your own standard works.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:20pm
  @theother
  you said
  “And the only problem with the premise of your argument is there is no evidence of this “power,” being exhibited beyond the death of the last Apostle.”
  Hey, we agree on something here! SWEET! So, without this authority to baptize and give the Holy Ghost, how did Christ’s church carry on if they didn’t fall away as you claim?
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:20pm
  JOEY8 said: Acts 8:17
  “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”
  You wanna try that one again LOL, or is the Bible incosistant?”
  
  You said laying on of hands was the ONLY way. I proved you wrong.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:23pm
  JOEY8 cried: Here you go Catholics, I got him to say that your church is true! Do one of you want to get his name for baptism?
  Either Christ’s church never fell away and the Catholics are right, or they did fall away, and needed to be restored like Peter said
  (Good job ignoring all of the evidence of the “falling away”, I’m sure you can justify telling Paul he’s wrong)
  
  LoL You’re losing your mind. You better take a break.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:27pm
  JOEY8 said: “If Christ, against whom the gates of death did not prevail, could die, then is it not possible that His Church could also die – and later be brought back to life (restored)?”
  
  Not if Christ said it wouldn’t.
  
  Sheesh.
  
  What part of “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” don’t you understand?
  
  And I don’t believe Peter was the first Pope, so that straw man argument fails and literally ALL of your other straw man arguments so far for the last month, have failed. LoL Must be a drag being you.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:28pm
  @theother
  “So can you cast out demons? Do the blind see, the lame walk and the dead rise at your command?”
  I never claimed to be an apostle, but I have been given this same power and authority. If I had done any of those things, this would hardly be the place to share it, but I know through Christ, I can do all things according to His will. If it was His will, yes I could. Early LDS church history has many examples of these things because miracles do follow the church of Christ.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:29pm
  JOEY8 said: ““And the only problem with the premise of your argument is there is no evidence of this “power,” being exhibited beyond the death of the last Apostle.”
  Hey, we agree on something here! SWEET! So, without this authority to baptize and give the Holy Ghost, how did Christ’s church carry on if they didn’t fall away as you claim?”
  
  Duh! Jesus has all Authority in heaven and on earth.
  
  I am a member of His church, which the gates of hell have not, nor will not, nor cannot prevail against it (because He said so) and you are not.
  
  But you can be.
  
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- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:30pm
  Clear up your argument for me because it is very sloppy
  Apostles died and the authority to baptize and give the Holy Ghost died with them.
  Christ’s church never fell away
  Christ’s church was made with a foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus being the chief cornerstone
  What are you arguing here? I am missing it. If the authority to perform baptism and the Holy Ghost died, how could Christ’s church remain if nobody could baptize, nobody could give the Holy Ghost?
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:43pm
  JOEY8 said: “I never claimed to be an apostle, but I have been given this same power and authority.”
  
  Wow, now you are blaspheming.
  
  Not only that, but if you really believe that you personally posses within you the ability to exercise the very Authority of Jesus Chris, at will, the same as Jesus and the Apostles and the 70, because a false prophet’s minion laid hands on you, you are clearly deceived, if not totally nuts. LoL
  
  Now I will agree that God answers prayer, but no real miracles have happened since the last Apostle died. There is no need. We already have the witness we need, oh ye of little faith.
  
  And to say you have “power” but this is not the place to tell me about it is just as silly as having us believe you personally can raise a dead person at will. I challenge you to start emptying hospitals if that is the case, and if you don’t or can’t then that “proves” you are either a liar, a fraud or just plain nuts. Considering our discussions, the latter sounds most feasible to me. Wow is all I can say.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:43pm
  Also, did God not have all authority before He sent His Son? I’m assuming you would say The Father did have all authority. So, why did He give this authority to prophets if He had it all along. That seems to be your same argument, that after Jesus ascended to the Father and had all authority, there was no reason for the apostles to have it because Jesus had it. If that was the case, then there would have been no reason to call Paul and give him the same power to baptize and give the Holy Ghost. Paul was AFTER Jesus and was given this authority. We don’t know if the apostles could have continued passing down the authority because they were killed!
  That also brings up a strange point in your beliefs that we don’t have to go over, but how did Christ not have all power and authority until His ascension if He is the same God substance as the Father? That’s kinda weird.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:45pm
  @theother
  another point in what you said
  “but no real miracles have happened since the last Apostle died.”
  But, one of your arguments against my faith is that we aren’t the true church because
  “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
  So, according to you, since these signs haven’t followed any faith since the apostles, what are we to think?
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:48pm
  “Wow, now you are blaspheming.”
  I’m sure the Jews said the same thing to Peter when he claimed authority from God, don’t worry, people have rejected God’s authority throughout all of man’s history, nothing new. And yes, I have God’s authority to baptize and give the gift of the Holy Ghost, so whenever you are ready.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:54pm
  Joey8 said: “What are you arguing here? I am missing it. If the authority to perform baptism and the Holy Ghost died, how could Christ’s church remain if nobody could baptize, nobody could give the Holy Ghost?”
  
  It did not die. You are confused again. No “authority” is needed, necessary or possible here on earth, since Christ has all Authority in heaven and on earth.
  
  We are all “priests” with Christ as our High Priest, therefore anyone can baptize anyone else. Baptism is only an outward demonstration of an inward change, anyway. It does not “impart” anything to you, it is only a pledge.
  
  I’ve asked you to read everything here before wasting my time, but you won’t. Instead you just keep proving how little you know about the Christian religion.
  
  http://www.gotquestions.org/
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:55pm
  This entire chapter applies:
  
  Heb 8:1Now in the things which we are saying, the main point is this. We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2a servant of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses was warned by God when he was about to make the tabernacle, for he said, “See, you shall make everything according to the pattern that was shown to you on the mountain.” 6But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law.
  
  7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
  
  8For finding fault with them, he said, “Behold, the days come,” says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
  
  9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 7:56pm
  10″For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
  
  11They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
  
  12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more.”
  
  13In that he says, “A new covenant,” he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:03pm
  Joey8 said: “I’m sure the Jews said the same thing to Peter when he claimed authority from God, don’t worry, people have rejected God’s authority throughout all of man’s history, nothing new. And yes, I have God’s authority to baptize and give the gift of the Holy Ghost, so whenever you are ready. ”
  
  I don’t think so. Peter raised the dead at his own command by exercising the very Authority of Jesus Christ. Can you raise the dead in that same manner?
  
  JOEY8 said: “And yes, I have God’s authority to baptize and give the gift of the Holy Ghost, so whenever you are ready. ”
  
  Lay it on me brother. LoL.
  
  But that’s not the same, We all may have our prayers answered, and a miracle may ensue, but it will not happen on “your” authority, but the Authority of Christ. You can have no “Authority” in heaven or on earth, because Jesus has it all.
  
  If you do, why don’t you start emptying hospitals? He could. They could. Why can’t you if you have that “same” Authority?”
  
  Because you can’t.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:05pm
  @theother
  “We are all “priests” with Christ as our High Priest, therefore anyone can baptize anyone else. ”
  What the heck? Wow, so much for “no man taketh this honor unto himself” and being called of God as Aaron was. Wow. Where is the record of people random church members baptizing people after Christ? All I read in the New Testament is the apostles and Paul.
  As for the New Covenant, where does it say “anyone who beleives in Jesus can take this honor unto themselves”? Wow. You accuse my faith of being unbiblical but you get to make up this stuff?
  Why did God choose Paul and was he given the authority to baptize and give the Holy Ghost if any of the believers could give it and all of the believers had the authority to raise the dead, heal the sick… That is the worst argument ever without any backing in the Bible. And, not every Christian believes it, I know that for a fact.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:12pm
  Slow down!
  
  Read Hebrews chapter 8.
  
  Then the following:
  
  “You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ … But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” 1 Pet 2:5-9
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:41pm
  I keep pointing you to this site, and the truth, but you keep looking away.
  
  I did a search of “Aaronic Priesthood” there, as you could have just as easily done and saved us both a lot of typing, and the following came up.
  
  http://www.gotquestions.org/priesthood-believers.html
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:48pm
  Hebrews 8 talks about the New Covenant that Christ brought while 2 Peter 2 talks about the chosen people of God being a royal priesthood. I failed to read where it says that the way to receive the priesthood has changed since Hebrews 5:4.
  I believe that part of the new covenant was extending the priesthood to more than just the sons of Aaron, or the Levites. Since Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, the duty of the priesthood needed to be changed. Christ taught us what the duties of this priesthood was when He called 12 disciples and chose them to be apostles, to go and heal the sick, baptize, give the Holy Ghost, and teach. But, Jesus called these people, He didn’t call ALL of His disciples, He called 12 of them, gave them authority while giving Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. God is a God of order, and not confusion. He set up this organization specifically for that purpose, so when people had disputations in some far off church, an apostle’s word was the word of God and could solve it.
  You seem to be really reaching with Peter calling the church a royal priesthood, especially considering we don’t know if he ordained these people like he did paul, or more likely, as Christ called the 70. Remember, Christ gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, and if Christ gave them, they had to be called of God as was Aaron. There is no notion anywhere in the Bible that says anyone that believes is a high priest.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:51pm
  Then go read this:
  
  Question: “Is God restoring the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today?”
  
  http://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-prophets-restored.html
  
  Then this:
  
  Question: “Are the miraculous gifts of the Spirit for today?”
  
  http://www.gotquestions.org/miraculous-gifts.html
  
  Then all the related links at the bottom of that last page: “why do so many people seek after signs and wonders”
  
  Is cessationism Biblical?
  
  How can we discern counterfeit miracles?
  
  What was the purpose of the Biblical sign gifts?
  
  If these don’t answer your questions then search some more. I’m tired of doing your homework for you.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 8:55pm
  And I read your website, which includes a lot of opinion.
  Another interesting experience with the priesthood is found in acts 8
  “Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”
  
  So, these people were baptized, but they hadn’t received the Holy Ghost yet. Why? Nobody with the authority gave it to them. But, since baptism is just an outward showing, shouldnt they have been high priests the second they believed? Shouldn’t they have been able to give each other the Holy Ghost? Why couldn’t the same person who baptized them give them the Holy Ghost? Because they weren’t called of God to do so, even though they believed all they want. God is a God of order.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:15pm
  @theother
  you seem to have lost your smugness, what happened?
  Why can’t you answer these questions on your own? I know the answers to them already, but I ask them to you to see if you are willing to be honest, but you aren’t. After all of the evidence of Christ telling Peter He will set up His church, that it will be a foundation of prophets and apostles, that Jesus will give apostles and prophets until a unity of faith, you still choose to ignore these verses. Tell me where I’m taking them out of context. I don’t care what some random website of “We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational” has to say, what is your understanding since you are a high priest. That website dodges the very same things I bring up here.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:17pm
  “Why does the Word tells thousands of different Christian churches what is the interpretation?” I can only answer this question with another because you don’t support your assertion. Where does it tell them something different. The words are the same for all.
  
  “or do you claim all Chrisitans agree on certain doctrines such as baptism and forgiveness of sins?” A lack of agreement doesn’t mean the words change. Does everyone agree what Romney and Obama said during the debates and which one was truthful at one point and the other dishonest? The obvious answer is no but their words didn’t change one bit from one listener to the next.
  
  “in other words, what makes you right and baptists wrong, or what makes baptists right and methodists wrong…” They either follow what it says or they don’t. “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” And, “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ “
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:21pm
  “why does the Word tell them different things?” It doesn’t. Many people don’t listen to the Spirit. Some listen to the wrong spirits. Some are teaching when they were not spiritually gifted to understand or teach. All of these things are covered in the Bible but because people like you and others in this thread rely on your ignorance as a basis for your theses, you think there is no one answer. You pretend that it can mean anything to anyone and still be valid. It can mean anything to anyone but it won’t necessarily be valid.
  
  You cite Hebrews 5 and High Priests but as we see in chapter 4, this is all a build up to Jesus based on the religious structure of Jewish tradition. Then the chapter moves onto the way things are now. This is where the spiritual gifts come in and though you imply that these are somehow handed down by other men, the last verse of 1 Cor 12 makes it clear that we have a direct role in receiving gifts from the Spirit. “But eagerly desire the greater gifts.” This is consistent with finding our salvation and bringing the Spirit into us. “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.” This is not a path of “go to a church, seek a priest, and only then can you come to God and then and only then can you receive spiritual gifts.”
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:28pm
  “You don’t believe the men that compiled the Bible were inspired by God, but you want to believe the book they compiled has everything God intended you to have?” Of course you’re confused by this because instead of relying on the Bible, you’re relying on the Church and the “wisdom” of men. There is biblical evidence for the word being inspired. There is NO biblical evidence that the councils that “declared” what is Scripture is inspired.
  
  Secondly, a group of men getting together and saying, “hey, this is what everyone is using, let’s call it canon,” doesn’t require an ounce of inspiration. In fact, there is a great chance that it was completely political and actual Scripture won out because it would have been too transparently political to include the non-Scriptural material. The Church has been plagued with politics for ages. Why believe that the councils weren’t likewise plagued?
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:30pm
  You’re a liar. You could not possibly have read all that so soon.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:31pm
  “Hey the other
  If you want to join the conversation , you gotta stay on topic my friend.”
  ——
  “LoL
  
  Actually I started the thread, and you are the one off topic. ”
  ——
  I don’t care who you are, that there’s funny.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:33pm
  @cafe
  Welcome back
  “Where does it tell them something different. The words are the same for all.”
  Well, the words are almost the same for all, have you ever read the Jehovah’s Witness Bible? But, it’s amazing that 10 Christians can read “except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven” and some will say “baptism is a requirement” such as the baptists but others like theotherberean here will say baptism isn’t necessary for salvation. That is a big problem, same words, different interpretations, someone is wrong.
  Calvinism believe in a salvation of predestination (chosen few) whereas Lutheranism believes any one can attain salvation through faith. That’s a pretty big difference. I know theotherberean doesn’t agree with Calvinists. So there are two MAJOR differences between Christian religions that read the same words. It’s not the words, its their interpretation.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:38pm
  @cafe
  ““hey, this is what everyone is using, let’s call it canon,”
  Man, are you sure were talking about the same council here? Do you really believe a bunch of guys sat down quietly and politely discussed the nature of God? Are we talking about the same people here? Where did they get the term “trinity” and when I do a search for “substance”, it does not talk about the substance that came in the definition of the trinity. Doctrines of men
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:41pm
  @theother
  Here it is, if you can’t answer the questions or keep up with the writing, call them a liar! You got me! Remember, 14 yr olds can read pretty fast
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:44pm
  “Hey the other
  If you want to join the conversation , you gotta stay on topic my friend.”
  ——
  “LoL
  
  Actually I started the thread, and you are the one off topic. ”
  ——
  I don’t care who you are, that there’s funny.
  
  Well, I was in the middle of dominating Cafe, and theother tried to come and change the topic of what we were discussing. I’ve worked with old folks in nursing homes though so i confess, maybe it was a reaction that I have when old people start going off on tangents
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:46pm
  JOEY8 said: “So, these people were baptized, but they hadn’t received the Holy Ghost yet. Why? Nobody with the authority gave it to them.
  
  The Hoiy Spirit is not a “thing” to be given, He is received, and Jesus has all Authority.
  
  JOEY8 “But, since baptism is just an outward showing, shouldnt they have been high priests the second they believed?
  
  No. LoL You’re an idiot. And a liar. All of these are answered in the web site you said you read. Liar.
  
  JOEY8Shouldn’t they have been able to give each other the Holy Ghost? Why couldn’t the same person who baptized them give them the Holy Ghost? Because they weren’t called of God to do so, even though they believed all they want. God is a God of order.
  
  Read those “opinions” you lied and said you read. You can only repent for lying once, then after that there is no repentence for LDS.
  
  And don’t forget that I demonstrated that Joseph Smith’s own theology disqualifies him and Cowdery both from the priesthood they claim to own, and ultimately every swinging LDS male since. That means you’re neither a Christian nor LDS. The letter H for heathen and the number 666 come to mind.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:48pm
  “Hey the other
  If you want to join the conversation , you gotta stay on topic my friend.”
  ——
  “LoL
  
  Actually I started the thread, and you are the one off topic. ”
  ——
  I don’t care who you are, that there’s funny.
  
  Yep, most everything JOEY8 posts is just that stupid.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 9:58pm
  JOEY8 whined: “Here it is, if you can’t answer the questions or keep up with the writing, call them a liar! You got me! Remember, 14 yr olds can read pretty fast”
  
  And you type fast with one hand too. LoL
  
  The problem is, you ARE a liar. And you sound like a mush brained 12 year old instead of a 14 year old tonight. You’ve said some pretty stupid things. LoL
  
  The funniest thing is you have no rebuttal to the fact that Smith fails his own theology test. The facts prove he’s a fraud, a liar, and a womanizing false prophet with a penchant for 14 year old girls (perhaps even boys, and maybe that’s why you’re so nervous at the temple? LoL) and other peoples wives. How many total JOEY8, 38? You’re only 30 short. Keep pumping away. LoL
  
  I’ll bet you all can’t wait for that great big Mormon orgy in Celestial heaven. Man, that will really be something.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:03pm
  @theother
  “The Hoiy Spirit is not a “thing” to be given, He is received, and Jesus has all Authority”
  So, youre saying they would’ve gotten it eventually, the apostles just went over there and put their hands on them for giggles LOL. Wow, these apostles sure had a lot of free time on their hands, considering they weren’t needed to baptize or to give the Holy Ghost.
  “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.”
  Simon wanted to buy this gift that the apostles had, the gift that whoever they laid their hands on, received the Holy Ghost. Where do you get that it wasn’t given to people. I gave the clearest example of people not having the Holy Ghost yet because “For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”
  They didn’t receive it yet because nobody with authority laid hands on them. I understand why you wouldn’t want to accept it though because it goes against everything you want to believe. I don’t blame you, most churches do the same thing
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:09pm
  @theother
  “The facts prove he’s a fraud, a liar, and a womanizing false prophet with a penchant for 14 year old girls (perhaps even boys, and maybe that’s why you’re so nervous at the temple? LoL) and other peoples wives. How many total JOEY8, 38? You’re only 30 short. Keep pumping away. LoL”
  I’ll ask again like I do every time, which facts are we talking about? The facts on your websites that disagree with my faith? Bias much? So, if I find a website that states that it has “facts” that the Bible was written by the devil, does that make it “fact”? Your definition of a fact always cracks me up.
  
  So, Cafeconservative, how do you feel about theother demeaning my religion to a faith that wants “celestial orgies”? Is this how all Christians talk? And about me typing with one hand? Not something I expect from “high priests”. You get a chance to distance yourself from the likes of theother, but when you can’t comment on the scriptures I use, what else should I expect from someone 40 years my elder.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:10pm
  Let’s see. I typed in “laying on of hands” in the search box at http://www.gotquestions.org, you know, that site you lied about reading? Well, the following came up:
  
  “Laying on of hands” is a biblical action; however, there is no biblical mandate requiring the physical laying on of hands for a particular spiritual ministry.”
  
  Imagine that!
  
  Now go enlighten yourself, troll.
  
  http://www.gotquestions.org/laying-on-of-hands.html
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:13pm
  @theother
  I wanted to put emphasis on “when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given” just in case you missed it
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:19pm
  ““Laying on of hands” is a biblical action; however, there is no biblical mandate requiring the physical laying on of hands for a particular spiritual ministry.””
  
  LOL like I said, opinion! Looks like I did read it.
  
  Report this comment
- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:25pm
  “Well, I was in the middle of dominating Cafe”
  
  Thank you for reinforcing your tendency to be delusional.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:29pm
  @cafe, anything more of substance to add?
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:32pm
  JOEY8 said “I’ll ask again like I do every time, which facts are we talking about? The facts on your websites that disagree with my faith? Bias much? So, if I find a website that states that it has “facts” that the Bible was written by the devil, does that make it “fact”? Your definition of a fact always cracks me up.”
  
  Well how would you define a fact then? LoL Something that agrees with your faith regardless of the truth? Of course. You’re a liberal and rules are only for stupid people. But not you.
  
  We are talking about the truth. Smith really IS a false prophet and he really DID have a penchant for 14 year old girls and other people’s wives. If those facts disagree with your faith, the problem is not the facts. LoL C’mon, you ca’n't REALLY be that stupid can you?
  
  JOEY8 whined: “So, Cafeconservative, how do you feel about theother demeaning my religion to a faith that wants “celestial orgies”? Is this how all Christians talk? And about me typing with one hand? Not something I expect from “high priests”. You get a chance to distance yourself from the likes of theother, but when you can’t comment on the scriptures I use, what else should I expect from someone 40 years my elder.”
  
  What, can’t handle your own battles, child? Have to cry to CAFE? And are you kidding me? Have you forgotten accusing me of being a pedophile and all of the other despicable things you have said about my person? All to perpetuate your “faith” even though eve
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:37pm
  it is always the same with Mormons. Your religion attacks mine mercilessly, calling my church the anti Christ and evil and not Christian, the Bible is untrustworthy, my pastor is presumptuous and blasphemous for performing marriages and offering communion. I’m a child of the devil. My baptism is invalid. I’m not a true Christian. I have no right to preach the Gospel.
  
  Then you cry foul when someone points out the FACT that your religion was founded by a womanizing false prophet with a penchant for 14 year old girls and other peoples wives.
  
  Hypocrite.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:45pm
  @CAFE
  
  I agree.
  
  Delusional indeed.
  
  I guess that kinda backfired on you eh JOEY8? LoL Isn’t it a bummer when you call for backup and you catch friendly fire? Should have popped smoke. Err, maybe you’ve been doing to much smoke already?
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:46pm
  @theother
  Why does it always end this way? You start with trying to answer questions, then you give up and start the claim of Joseph Smith and the “FACT” that he was a pedophile rapist liar but when I ask you where your “facts” come from, you always deflect it and end up talking about me typing with one hand and wanting orgies in heaven. Seriously, every time. If you want to talk about doctrine and scriptures which is what I’ve been doing, lets do it. But when you start throwing out the wild accusations with no proof and start talking about me fondling myself on the computer, that’s not what I come on here to do. Kinda creeps me out when an old man who thinks he’s talking to a 14 yr old talks about the kid playing with himself. Do I need to call Chris Hansen?
  Now, what matter of doctrine did you want to continue discussing? The people who only received the Holy Ghost after the apostles put hands on them? Or did you want to move on to something else
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 10:49pm
  @theother
  “LoL Isn’t it a bummer when you call for backup and you catch friendly fire”
  Actually, I was proving a point that evangelicals will always unite against Mormons no matter how far one evangelical will take it (ie talking about me playing with myself and having orgies in heaven). It was the same in the 1800′s when evangelicals fired each other up to drive Mormons out of their state. Seems my point was proven since cafe seems to agree with you
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:00pm
  You ask for facts, and them I show them to you. Then you ask for facts, and I show them to you again. Then you ask for “facts” and I show you facts. Then you ask for facts, and I show them to you yet again.
  
  You’re the one who started the personal attacks. I’m just much better at it than you are. I asked you nicely weeks ago to stop with the personal attacks, but you continue relentlessly because you are insulted by the hideous facts surrounding your false prophet, so you lash out at my person in revenge. You have proven that you will say just about anything if you think it will help your argument, and now you’re whining about being picked on. It’s either your religion or you, you poor, poor misunderstood child. That is pitifully immature, and very unChristianlike.
  
  If you can’t handle the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.
  
  Delusional indeed.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:03pm
  Here, one more time, where are your “facts” that Joseph Smith was a pedophile liar rapist womanizer? Then we can discuss them
  Also, do you think there is anything wrong with an old man (you said you have grandkids) telling someone who he thinks is 14 that they play with themselves on the computer and talks about them having orgies in heaven? Is this what you meant when you’re a high priest?
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:03pm
  Oops, careful now. These are your words, not mine…
  
  (ie talking about me playing with myself
  
  Don’t include me in your sick fantasies, pervert.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:05pm
  Aww, you poor little baby. Are we bashing your religion again? It’s ok to bash ours though.
  
  Delusional indeed.
  
  Report this comment
- Joey8
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:10pm
  Looks like you’re done with any constructive conversation. I’m done with my physics homework so I’ll check back tomorrow. If you lost my email, it’s wrastler8(AT)juno, unless you want to email me about typing with one hand and having orgies.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:15pm
  Those are your words, pervert. And stop including me in your sick fantasies.
  
  And is it ok for you to tell everyone that you saw my moniker on some fact check site, insinuating that I was a pedophile? Perhaps I should introduce you to my daughter in law who is a corporate attorney?
  
  Hypocrite.
  
  You need to take a break before you have a nervous break down.
  
  And again and again I’ve shown you the facts. I’m tired of looking up the websites and posting them for you time after time when you obviously don’t look at them because you keep asking the same stupid questions when they have been answered over and over again.
  
  These sites substantiate everything I’ve said about Smith.
  
  http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/
  
  http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm
  
  http://www.ldsvideo.org/2011/06/joseph-smiths-false-prophecies.html
  
  Now this should be the last time i have to post these for you.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:17pm
  Actually I’m just getting started. There is plenty more to expose about the teachings of your false prophet.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on October 23, 2012 at 11:21pm
  There’s no way I would ever give a pervert like you my email address. Especially when you keep talking about playing with yourself in public. I told you not to include me in your sick fantasies.
  
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Pharmer1
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:30am
Catholic means Universal.
You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!!! :-)

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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:24am
  “catholic” means universal and appears in the Bible.
  “Catholic” is the name of a religious sect which claims to represent all/true Christianity. It does not.
  
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- Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:51pm
  I AM A SAINT. If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, YOU ARE A SAINT. The Bible tells us this.
  Kind of silly for the Catholic church to bestow when we are already Saints if we follow Jesus Christ.
  Kind of silly for the Catholic church to ask you to call their priests “father” when the Bible says every follower of Jesus Christ is a high priest unto himself and the only one we are to call Father is the Lord God Almighty.
  Read your Bible. Every believer is a Saint. Every believer is a High Priest. Every believers Father is the Lord. Every believers Saviour is Jesus Christ. The book of Galations teaches “good works” plus Jesus Christ and you are lost. You are not truly saved. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father but by me.” “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.” “For by grace are you saved by faith, not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone could boast.” The Holy Bible. READ THE LAST VERSE VERY VERY CAREFULLY. YOUR ETERNAL LIFE DEPENDS UPON IT. “not of works” “free gift”
  strictly “by faith” There are no good works that are good enough to save anyone. Jesus is the only Way.
  To everyone enjoy this day of rest the Lord has given us.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:08pm
  Well said PCTIW.
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:56pm
  You are not a Saint until you are in Heaven. We all hope to be Saints but if we have un repented mortal sin on our souls when we die, we could very well find ourselves in Hell.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:20pm
  “You are not a Saint until you are in Heaven. ”
  
  So saith the non-biblical Church point of view.
  
  Feel free to tell God’s Word that it’s wrong.
  
  http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=saint&version1=102&searchtype=all&bookset=2
  
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- proliance
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 4:07pm
  Cafeconservative, you may have such a high opinion of yourself that you believe you are a saint, but until you are judged and in heaven, you’re just another guy who is guilty of the deadly sin of pride.
  
  Catholics don’t walk around saying that we’re going to heaven. We don’t believe that all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven. We believe that Jesus suffered and died so that our sins MAY be forgiven. We have to understand our sin and truly sorry, then they can be forgiven. Nothing is automatic.
  
  Go ahead and make your altar call and say your sinner’s prayer. That’s all fine. But put your ego in check. Nobody is worthy until they are judged.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 4:41pm
  Proliance, what you’re saying is short is “I can judge you according to Church teachings but don’t you dare judge according to God’s Word.” But since you missed the obvious, I claimed no sainthood for myself. I simply pointed to where God’s Word says saints are those who are believers. I understand your Church has claimed superiority over God’s Word and you find a simple reading or plain Scripture offensive.
  
  “Catholics don’t walk around saying that we’re going to heaven.” At least not since the new and improved Vatican, eh? There’s always room to rewrite the rules when they just don’t work anymore.
  
  “We don’t believe that all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven. …” Odd I’m bound to continuously repent and ask forgiveness. Not sure where you think I stated otherwise. Oh, another failed Catholic assumption?
  
  “Go ahead and make your altar call and say your sinner’s prayer.” Just like your other Catholic buddies you have to build your arguments on what you ASSUME I believe and what I do. Funny how you guys have been wrong on EVERY single assumption you’ve made to this point. That’s where your blind Church faith has gotten you.
  
  “That’s all fine. But put your ego in check. Nobody is worthy until they are judged.” And some will be found unworthy after they are judged. Maybe you ought to be careful and check your own ego after batting zero.
  
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ireport uderide
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:24am
As a practicing Christian and former Catholic I’ve heard and seen both sides.

1 Jesus is our intercessor to God, not someone inducted into the Catholic Hall of Fame.
2 Mary is the Mother of Jesus; she was a sinner in need of a Savior like the rest of us.
3 Mary is still Blessed above all women.
4 Saints distract our attention from the Savior.
5 Keep it simple. Why do you think the faithful are referred to as sheep?

Salvation is like a gift found under the Christmas tree. It’s from God and has your name on it, the only requirement is to accept or reject it.

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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:11am
  Lets take these one by one, shall we?
  
  1 Jesus is our intercessor to God, not someone inducted into the Catholic Hall of Fame.
  (My response). Do you pray for others when they ask you? Do you ask for people to pray for you? This is intercession. Who are you to say what God will allow or can do?
  
  2 Mary is the Mother of Jesus; she was a sinner in need of a Savior like the rest of us.
  (My Response). Indeed she did need a savior, however Jesus saved her at her conception. This allowed her to become the undefiled and Holy Ark of the Word of God…Jesus Christ.
  3 Mary is still Blessed above all women.
  (My Response) You are correct, so says the Bible: Luke 1:48.
  4 Saints distract our attention from the Savior.
  (My Response) Making Saints is the whole reason Jesus Christ died on the cross! To make us Saints! The term Saint simply mean that the persons soul is in heaven. If we are not damned by God to hell, then we become Saints and join in the beatific vision.
  5 Keep it simple. Why do you think the faithful are referred to as sheep?
  (My response) The Parable of the Good Shepherd refers to the goodness and care that God takes with each of His children, never letting even one slip from his care. It has nothing to do with disparaging His children whom he loves.
  
  It is a shame that you were not catechized better. Maybe you would not have left the church that Jesus Christ established Himself.
  
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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:24am
  It amazes me that they think the pope has the authority to name a person a saint when in fact the pope is a leader of a cult.
  
  Anyone who believes Romans 10:9-10 is a saint and needs not the satanic servants of satan (the pope) stamp of approval
  
  Sad and revolting
  
  Those cults are about to find out just how wrong they are when the resurrection/rapture takes place and they are left behind
  
  http://youtu.be/ahEVxIzlxwo
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:45am
  @Judeo
  1. Christ speaking to God WITH AUTHORITY on a person’s behalf is intercession. Us praying to God through Jesus on another person’s behalf is simply prayer. God will accept Jesus’ word each and every time. God will consider but not necessarily accept our prayers.
  2. Feel free to show Scriptural evidence for your assertions re: Mary.
  3 No disagreement here. This is the only point you’ve made so far that is actually supported by Scripture.
  4. Your point here seems accurate but is in complete contradiction with Church practice where the Pope decides to take on God’s job and appoint saints himself. I would love to hear where the Pope gained the powers of omniscience and judging men’s hearts.
  5 While the sheep reference is as you claim, the Bible does not hold back on referring to and condemning man’s frequent foolishness.
  Jesus did establish a church that is self evident and its membership is made up of every person who believes in Him and leads a righteous life. His church requires no catechism (indoctrination) other than the adherence to the Bible. His church would not risk boys in favor of saving face. His church would not be plagued with clergy too afraid to excommunicate liberals who advocate the murder of children in the womb. His church would not assume His powers (anointing saints) or suppose that confessions need go through priests rather than Jesus. And on and on…
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:58am
  Rapture…the concept of “the rapture” is un-biblical. This novel concept didn’t exist until the late 1800 to early 1900′s. Per the Bible, there is only the Second Comming of our Lord at the end of the age. Not a 3rd or 4th like those who believe in the rapture. You are a heretic!
  
  Get thee behind me Satan! The “Cult” you refer to is the One, Holy, Catholic (meaning universal), and Apostolic Church that Jesus Christ established Himself. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ now and Forever!
  
  “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.” Isaiah 5:20
  
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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:26pm
  JUDEO_CHRISTIAN
  
  Just what do you think Paul is addressing in 1 Thes 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:50-55??? It was Paul the revealed the mystery of the resurrection/rapture.
  
  The resurrection/rapture is very real and is supported through Hebraic studies and types and shadows, and plain textual reading of verses
  
  By the plain contextual reading of 1 Thes 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:50-55 the reader can understand that two groups of believers will be removed from this earth (1) The dead in Christ (Bodies) (2) the living will be changed physically and removed from this earth.
  
  There is no other rendering of this verses than that of what they themselves clearly reveal
  
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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:33pm
  JUDEO_CHRISTIAN
  
  Not if you are worshiping Mary as the co redemptrix or if you are partaking in the satanic Eucharist. You will see with your own eyes the resurrection/rapture and at that point and time you will do one of two things
  
  (1) Become a real believer in the REAL Jesus Christ and be willing to die for that new found belief
  
  (2) Believe the great lie that will soon follow in an attempt to try and explain away the resurrection/rapture.
  
  If you chose option 2 then you will have the blood of millions of martyred REAL CHRISTIANS on your hands just as you do now for the crimes of your cults past (mass murder of real Christians)
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:45pm
  Cafe…
  
  1. When Catholics pray to Saints, we are asking the to join our prayers to Jesus Christ who is the single mediator to God the Father. This no different than me asking you to pray for me.
  
  2. You won’t find the concept of the Trinity expressed in the Bible but almost all Christian denominations accept it as doctrine. The immaculate conception of Mary makes sense. How could the Divine be born of a stained vessel? Why would Jesus Christ, omnipotent God allow His Mother be afflicted with the stain of original sin? What kind of son would He be? How could Mary, after having the most high God be within her allow her body be defiled by another man? She didn’t.
  
  4. The authority given by Jesus Christ to Peter (and therefore the Popes that follow) to Bind and Loose sins on earth and in Heaven. Mathew 18:18
  
  5. Jesus created one Church. If you look in the yellow pages you will find thousands of different denominations of Protestant churches. In fact in the United States you have over 30,000 different denominations. All of these churches believe that they, and only they, are teaching “the Gospel Truth.” Each one has made themselves there own Pope. It would appear to me someone is teaching error. Jesus created One Church. One that is protected by the Holy Spirit (not man) from teaching matters of Faith and Morals in error. One that “Hell would not prevail against.” One Church, not 30,000! If you don’t believe this then you believe that Jesu
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:51pm
  Rapture…19 centuries of Christian theology disagree with you. I guess you’re just smarter than the likes of Thomas Aquinas or Augustine of Hippo.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:04pm
  @Judeo
  So you admit, that all of your positions on Mary are extra-biblical. You could have just said that.
  
  I also find that you find sex between the married to be defiling. Most Christians believe sex with their married partners to be an entirely Holy act. It’s only Catholics who have twist and spin it so that it can fit the dogma about Mary.
  
  It’s funny that the very first commandment of the Bible, “be fruitful and multiply,” would be a commandment to defile each other in marriage by Catholic logic. Perhaps instead of relying on extra-biblical “logic” we should stick to Scripture which is sufficient for EVERY good work.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:20pm
  “Rapture…19 centuries of Christian theology disagree with you. I guess you’re just smarter than the likes of Thomas Aquinas or Augustine of Hippo.”
  
  Church-approved theologians are the only ones that count right? The same Church responsible for the inquisition?
  
  And God never reveals mysteries that have been before us for centuries and millenia, right? Kind of like how Jesus was in the Old Testament the whole time but was/has never been apparent to the Israelites?
  
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- Kalidor835
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:38pm
  @Judeo, you keep saying that the Roman Catholic church is the one church founded by Christ and I hate to break it to you but it’s not. At the time of Christ and up until the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine there was no organized church. It comprised small unaffiliated little cells that were hiding for their lives in most cases because if they were caught by the Romans they would be executed for their faith. That started to change shortly before Constantine came to power but there was still no large organized church as we know it now. One day Constantine was supposed to have had a dream before going into battle that if he prayed and dedicate his life to the God of Christians he would have his great victory. According to the story he did so, won the day, and started the conversion of the empire to Christianity. There lies the beginnings of the Catholic Church and not the church founded by Christ. The idea of praying to saints stems from the fact that Romans prayed to many gods and it made their conversion easier if they would pray to more than just Christ or God himself. The first “saints” were the 12 apostles of Christ as well as Paul. The idea that good works would get you into heaven was also begun at this time. The reason that this lie was able to be propagated to the extent that it was is due to the fact that the bible wasn’t a widely distributed item and that the vast majority of people were illiterate. They couldn’t look it up for themselves.
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:52pm
  Cafe, certainly I admit there is no direct statement in the Bible of the Immaculate Conception as long as you admit that the concept of the Holy Trinity is not specifically found there either. Which then means that Doctrine does not have to be specifically and it’s entirety defined from within the Holy Bible alone.
  
  I can play this game all day.
  
  As to Mary and whether she had sexual relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus. There is overwhelming evidence that Mary, the daughter of Joachim and Anne was the Temple Virgin. As such, Mary would have vowed a celibate life. Any subsequent marriage would have been with this understanding. Joseph, after coming to the understanding that Mary was the mother of the Messiah, how would this Holy man ever defile her and her vow?
  
  Sexual relations within marriage is indeed a holy union. There were larger things going on in the lives of Mary and Joseph.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:34pm
  Yes Judeo, you could continue making assumptions and presuming they are fact. Your faith seems to be tied to making assumptions rather than relying on Scripture. Let me tell you this, my view of Trinity is very biblical so it doesn’t fit well with extrabiblical rationalizations.
  
  “I can play this game all day.” I’m glad you see this as a game rather than something worthy of God.
  
  “As to Mary and whether she had sexual relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus. There is overwhelming evidence that Mary, the daughter of Joachim and Anne was the Temple Virgin…” So saith, the Bible? No? I thought not.
  
  “Sexual relations within marriage is indeed a holy union. There were larger things going on in the lives of Mary and Joseph.” So saith the Bible? No? I thought not.
  “And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
  
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- Kalidor835
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:56pm
  The idea that Mary stayed a virgin her whole life is one of the reasons certain scriptures were removed from the bible by the Catholic church. The scriptures in question, found buried in the Egyptian desert after being hidden by early Coptic Christians, point to Jesus having younger siblings born of Mary and Joseph’s union.
  
  The Church also removed other books that state that Mary Magdalene was actually the 13th disciple of Christ. The church is also responsible for her being labeled a prostitute as no where in any of the scripture is she labeled as such. They did it to play down her role as she was a woman.
  
  These and other lies of the Catholic Church are what led to the Protestant Reformation once more people had access to the bible after the advent of the printing press.
  
  Getting back to my earlier point on the origins of the church the idea of forgiveness as granted by a priest also goes back to Greco-Roman Mythology as a priest could help absolve one of a misdeed by petitioning the god in question. For example if a sailor felt that they had somehow slighted Poseidon/Neptune they could go to a priest of said god and the priest would commune with the deity who would then give the sailor a task to perform to get him back in the good graces of the god. No where in the bible does it say forgiveness comes from a priest or that a priest should petition for it on behalf of another.
  
  The act of good deeds getting you into paradise also is a Greco-Roman belief hel
  
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- Kalidor835
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 3:02pm
  *held over in the Catholic church. Based on your deeds in the Greco-Roman tradition you either went to Elysium (Heaven), Limbo (purgatory), or Tartarus/Hades (Hell).
  
  As to cafe’s point of the scriptures as they exist in the bible naming Christ’s siblings I have heard with my own ears priest’s try and say that those were only Christ’s step-brothers. The scriptures that I alluded to earlier that the church removed state otherwise.
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 5:38pm
  Saints are advocates for us and nothing more. They pray for us and give us an example to follow for a virtuous life.
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 6:07am
  @Kalidor835
  “The reason that this lie was able to be propagated to the extent that it was is due to the fact that the bible wasn’t a widely distributed item and that the vast majority of people were illiterate.”
  
  Not only it wasn’t widely distributed, but The Catholic Councils of Nicaea and Trent that compiled and established the books hadn’t taken place yet, which shows the fact that the Bible itself was preserved and transmitted by the Catholic Church that you persecute.
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 7:50am
  @Kalidor835
  “These and other lies of the Catholic Church are what led to the Protestant Reformation….”
  
  Political tensions and the ambition of unscrupulous individuals like Henry VIII, Luther led to the Reformation, which caused millions of dead and centuries of havoc across Europe, and which has until this day weakened the Western Civilization.
  
  “Judeo, you keep saying that the Roman Catholic church is the one church founded by Christ and I hate to break it to you but it’s not. At the time of Christ and up until the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine there was no organized church….”
  
  The fact that the persecuted Church founded by Christ took 3 centuries to organize its cannon and institutions doesn’t mean that it wasn’t founded by Christ.
  In fact you forget to mention that a capital factor to Constantine’s conversion was his mother, Saint Helene and while the conversion of the Emperor helped to spread the Word of Jesus, and the Christian values, the process was well started before Constantine, proof of which is the “Edict of Toleration” by Galerious, but yes, under Constantine, Christians, (The Church), were finally able to breath. The compilation of the Bible you protestants hold dear, was started during this period. Not only that, but Christendom itself started to flourish, but as spoiled children you forget all the efforts made by The Church to preserve the Word of God in the world.
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 7:55am
  @Kalidor835
  
  “The idea of praying to saints stems from the fact that Romans prayed to many gods.”
  “Getting back to my earlier point on the origins of the church the idea of forgiveness…”
  “The act of good deeds getting you into paradise also is a Greco-Roman belief…”
  
  Christianity has been revealed for the salvation of mankind; humans exist in history as historical beings, claiming that this or that element of the Catholic Rites may have a link to an earlier tradition proves nothing. Latin was also the language of Virgil and Ovid before it became the language of The Holy Church. The image you have of a pure, non-historical Christianity is not only scientifically inane but inhumane, as it aspires to eliminate the reality of man in the world, as created by God. Such a naïve view, which doesn’t take into account the historicity of man, is doomed to become the prey of the dominant Atheistic Nihilism, which it has created in the first place. This also proves that only The Catholic Church is able to handle tradition, culture, science, reason and faith.
  
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- edmundburk
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:43pm
  so many evengelicals so many little pretend popes……
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:46pm
  So many Catholics, so few Catholics who actually understand God’s Word
  
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123456beatriz
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:22am
Bravo! for the Catholics!

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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:05pm
  Bravo for the Catholics!
  http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/
  Bravo for the Catholics!
  http://catholicsformarriageequality.net/
  Bravo for the Catholics!
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
  Bravo for the Catholics!
  http://www.dignityusa.org/category/site-index-terms/gay-catholics
  Bravo for the Catholics!
  http://lcwr.org/
  
  Are these groups sanctioned? Not all but the fact that they probably every member is also a member of a Catholic Church and that there is any ability to claim membership in the Church and belief in these values shows just how fallen the Church is. The Bible shows how easy excommunication is but the Church has turned its back on God’s Word and invented its own excommunication rules making it nearly impossible to get rid of these spiritual lepers. Bravo for the Catholics!
  
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davecorkery
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:08am
Odd that it’s not god creating saints, but humans. It sounds like good marketing by the vatican to me. The vatican is an 8.2 BILLION dollar corporation, and needs to keep the suckers happy.

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LRC
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:00am
I find the hatred of the Catholic Church interesting. Why such nasty posts, you don’t have to believe. I find it very interesting that atheists, non-believers, etc., get so worked up over what others believe. Such rage over something you claim not to believe in.

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- Jezreel
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:40am
  Even the word of God says, “Abhorr that which is evil”. The Roman Catholic Institution is not a creation of the Lord Jahshua our Christ. He told Peter, “upon this rock (the revelation that Jashua is the son of God) he would build his church”. The blasphemers deliberately took that scripture out of context and used Peter, a mere mortal man, to be the rock. Peter is not the rock, Jahshua is. Every single person that is truly HIS is a saint when Christ baptises them into His body. Every single wonderful simplicity of the truth that Christ died for on the cross has been perverted by man and this is very good to hate. Satan is the father of liars and he is the pope of the Roman Catholic religion. All false religion loves to have a spiritual hierarchy with titles. This is the “pride of life” and we know that the word says, “all that is in the world, the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and the pride of life is not of the father but of the world”. Men love the pride of life with their titles that put them above other men. Jahshua said, “call no man teacher and call no man father for you only have one father in heaven and you are all bretheran in him”. Of course, we know that the institution that Constantine ordained is straight from the pit of hell and so it is against the changed natures and new creation of Christ to love that which is from the pit of hell. We are to abhorr all evil.
  
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- Quiata
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:51am
  @LRC Exactly right. Generally, atheists are deeply unsettled people who cover it up with cynicism and snarkiness. Their attacks speak more about them than about those they’re attacking.
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:33am
  Jezreel, the contortions you must go through to change what Jesus Christ said Himself into something that you want Him to say must make your head ache.
  
  Jesus did not leave us orphaned after His crucifixion. He defined His Church with a physical head. The Keys he gave to Peter is understood by those who understand the structure of a Kingdom. The person who holds the Keys to the Kingdom is the Chancellor. Peter, protected by the Holy Spirit from error on matters of Faith and morals was the first of an unbroken line of what we now call Popes.
  
  You are echoing the same old tired rantings of Loraine Boettner which has been proven wrong time and time again.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:00pm
  It’s funny Judeo that you need to assume that someone has read or been exposed to some specifc anti-Catholic author to reach a conclusion that comes from a simple, but Spirit-led, reading of the Bible. You may think you make some sort of strong argument by referencing some supposedly disproven author but all you are doing is showing that you can make assumptions about the source of people’s information. As a Christian, I am surprised you are not letting God’s Word carry your defense bu instead are relying on your own words.
  
  If your/the Catholic Church’s position is scripturally-based, then use the Scripture to defend it. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
  
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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:52pm
  LRC
  
  Catholicism has murdered real Christians in the past and is about to do the same thing again in their future after the resurrection/rapture
  
  Catholicism is filled with pedophiles, homosexuals and all manner of deviants
  
  It would be wise to abandon the whore of Babylon before the resurrection/rapture and become a real Christian
  
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- Judeo_Christian
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:20pm
  Cafe … Boettner’s “Roman Catholicism” is taught in most Protestant seminaries. It is not a leap then that those who sit in the pews of these ministers and preachers will regurgitate the bile they were taught in seminary.
  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” I believe this passage from St. Paul as well.
  
  I also believe St. John the Apostle who wrote:
  John 21:25
  And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
  
  These other things remain alive and well, transmitted with fidelity within the oral tradition of the Catholic Church.
  
  Ask yourself…which came first, the Bible or the Church? How did the church survive the first couple hundred years prior to the collection of books known as the Canon of the Bible.
  
  If you like your Bible…thank a Catholic!
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:54pm
  “It is not a leap then that those who sit in the pews” It is not a leap that you are assuming all seminaries are teaching it and that all those who attend take it as truth and then propagate that message. But feel free to link the syllabuses for the courses at these seminaries. Also feel free to tell me what pew I’ve been sitting in and who my pastor is and what seminary he attended and what courses he took. Oh, you can’t? Maybe for once you can begin arguing from what you know and not what you assume.
  “I believe this passage from St. Paul as well.” I believe the message is God’s. I couldn’t care less what instrument (person) he used to convey it.
  “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one…” Yes, He was Jewish and did Jewish things like following JEWISH tradition.
  “These other things remain alive and well, transmitted with fidelity within the oral tradition of the Catholic Church.” Sure they do. Can you tell me what tradition the Church follows when not excommunicating pedophilic priests, abortion-advocating adherents, or admonishing priests who give communion to men in Church-mocking drag?
  “Ask yourself…which came first, the Bible or the Church?…”The Word well pre-existed the Church but you’d have to read it to understand that. Just keep going along with what the Church tells you to believe. No need to have the Spirit guide you, right?
  
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- edmundburk
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:50pm
  want to see the twisted and corrupted hetrical minds at work read the anti catholic post’s above.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:30pm
  Keep embracing pedophile priests and abortion advocates in your ranks. The true heretics are obvious by their defense of an organization openly embracing evil in its ranks.
  
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1HonestInjun
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:56am
If you want to read about a real saint, read about Bishop Baraga. He lived in the 17th century and
dedicated his life to teaching christianity to native americans and immigrants. To become a saint
it must be proved that the individual performed a miracle. It’s difficult to find a miracle contributed to him that is why he isn’t a saint. Now look at Kateri Tekakwitha who lived in the 15th century. For twenty years her committee tried to discover a miracle contributed to Kateri and couldn’t find one, until 2007 when her relic touched the lips of a boys with a fever and the boy was cured. It was declared a miracle.
I’m not trying to discredit Kateri Tekakwitha as she may be a true saint. I am discrediting the process
of declaring sainthood by the church. Yes there is politics even in sainthood.

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Formula382
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:32am
@KarenM
“I used to be Catholic but then I began reading and thinking and so I left. Sorry, but it’s true. I was told that I could pray to Mary to get to Jesus by a parishioner. Huh, I thought.”

Karen, I thought you said you began “reading and thinking”? Sounds like you need to read more. I can schred any protestant denomination, but I don’t. The Catholic is one of, if not the oldest institutions on earth and that won’t change anytime soon. Open your eyes, The Churce is the only institution at this moment, effectively, standing up for your rights. How about some humility!

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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:13pm
  If only it would stand up the unborn by excommunicating it’s own parishioners who continue to advocate for abortion WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY declaring their CATHOLIC faith. That’s the Church that is protecting us? Thanks, but no thanks. “By their fruits, you shall know them.”
  
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- gdbhusker
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 3:35am
  I am a life long southern baptist who married a cradle catholic. My children were born into the catholic church and I have attended mass for 15 years… I am NOT catholic. while my children attend RCIA, half tyme, and tyme….they are being taught that evolution is real, most of the bible is allegorical and that only the church can get you to heaven…meanwhile, our priest tells us that only the acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as our ONLY savior can get us to heaven ( which is what I have believed my whole life) some parishioners hate the fact that our priest has a biblical preference..and if you are wondering why I have not converted.. it is because I choose not to be a hypocrite, I will NEVER believe that the bread and wine become the physical body and blood, and I believe that if Mary were truly sinless, then she would have gladly taken her sons place on that cross as all mothers would do… but she couldnt.. only the one WITHOUT spot, blemish or sin..Jesus the Christ.. i read my bible and teach my children the word of God..we have a great priest in battle with people who love traditions… for the record our priest actually said twice now…that when Christ died he said it is finished… that means you can do NOTHING of your own.. Christ did EVERYTHING required to get you to heaven if only you believe that he was the son of the living and most high God, and was resurrected..
  
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for HIS glory
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:18am
With all due respect to the Pope, only God chooses saints, right from His hand, before the beginning of time…that’s why He’s God and men aren’t.

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- john654
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:34am
  You probably got you information from the Bible, which is a Catholic book, Right?
  
  John
  
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- RRFlyer
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:45am
  The Bible says All Believers are saints.
  
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john654
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:18am
The only hoe for America and the world is the Holy Catholic church. Bash the body of Christ at your own peril. Protestantism inside and outside the Church has been trying to destroy it for decades. Won’t happen, Jesus Christ is God and it’s His Church!

John

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- edmundburk
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 9:58pm
  I despare of finding an open minded and fair minded evengelical.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:01pm
  Because we’ve seen how open-minded you and your fellow Catholics have been? Man, you guys just can help be hypocrites can you?
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 11:38pm
  *can’t help being
  
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tradcatholicgirl
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:57am
The Catholic faith believes in The Church Militant, which is all of us on earth who are soldiers for Christ. As soldiers for Christ, we can pray to God for others in need. Catholicism also states that there is a part of the Church that is in Heaven, and that they too can pray for you just like people here can pray for you. That is all we do in regard to saints. We ask for their prayers, because they led Holy lives are in Heaven. We believe that they are close to Christ.

We also look to them to be good examples of how to live a holy or Christian life. That is called veneration. It is NOT worship.

If some of these Catholics and ex-Catholics would have taken the time to understand their own faith, they wouldn’t have to “buy” anything with regard to Catholic saints. We worship Christ.

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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 4:48pm
  And only if Catholics would take more time to read the Word of God over the Catechism they may understand what He wants you to believe. The Bible is sufficient for every good work yet the Catholic Church want’s to say, “Not so fast. You can’t be righteous without us. You need to water down what God’s Word says with what we claim to be true.”
  
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Amy
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:39am
So many faith bashers. Prayer heals. Saints are named because they have been chosen as intersessors. Many people say they pray ‘to’ saints when they are actually praying ‘through them.’ Anyone who sincerely says they will pray ‘for’ you- allow them.

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- The Jewish Avenger
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:18am
  I always looked at Saints as “people who show us how we should strive to be”
  
  Obviously, idiots will be sarcastic with that statement, the intellegent ones will at least get what I am saying.
  
  And apparently, my comments show that I have still a ways to go :)
  
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- loriann12
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:30am
  I always assumed that the “to” meanit the saints were an in-between (for lack of a better word) to Christ. We’re told in the Bible that we don’t need someone to speak for Christ for us, we speak directly to Him./\ But (and I’m Native American, more so than Warren) aren’t the saints supposed to have been Catholic? I skimmed the article, so I may have missed the part where the Indian converted.
  
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karenm
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:35am
I used to be Catholic but then I began reading and thinking and so I left. Sorry, but it’s true. I was told that I could pray to Mary to get to Jesus by a parishioner. Huh, I thought.

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- Bodankeu
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:53am
  To KarenM, who said “I used to be Catholic but then I began reading and thinking and so I left. Sorry, but it’s true. I was told that I could pray to Mary to get to Jesus by a parishioner. Huh, I thought.”
  I say to you that a mildly-informed Catholic would never believe that you have to pray to Mary to get to JesusI And a “thinking” Catholic would have taken something that sounded so absurd to her priest for advice. If you truly “read” about the Catholic faith you would have quickly learned that wasn’t true. I would bet you were never Catholic, just a common Catholic-basher.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 12:41pm
  @Bodankeu
  Yes, we see that the Church’s followers, to include non-laity, is universal in it’s understanding of Mary and her role(s). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediatrix_of_all_graces
  
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PIGSWILLNEVERFLY
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:32am
@SONOFTHUNDER – Me too. The Catholic Church is good for children. It teaches that Yes, Jesus Loves me. The 10 Commandments and other very good obligations to live as a Christian. However, THEY DO NOT TEACH THE BIBLE. The foundation of ALL. So, once your are past, say 10 years old it is best to get into bible studies and out of the cult of the catholic church because it will have given you a foundation but nothing lasting to build on that foundation. The Catholic church has been infiltrated by Marxists as has all of U.S. institutions. The politician who “call” themselves Catholics are just one example of the infiltration. I now attend Ft. Snelling Memorial Chapel where the Veteran is remembered. At the beginning of every service a candle it lit for the MIA/POW’s near an empty chair on the altar. The church is non-denominational and Christ is the head of the church. Around all the walls of the church are the flags of every branch of military service with the banners of each campaign proudly hanging. Sunday services are at 11:00 am and Bible Study lead by 2 Army chaplins are at 10:00am. The chapel is a MN Historic Site and so we lease it from the State. I love this church and the people of this church are mostly military families and friends, but all are welcome. If you are ever in MN the Chapel is just a couple miles from the Mpls/St.Paul airport and ALL are welcome to join us in praising the glory of Lord Jesus and Thanking the Troops every Sunday.

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- LRC
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:07am
  Wow, I’ll tell my bible study class tomorrow evening that we are committing an apostasy…Catholics don’t read the Bible, according to someone named Pigswiineverfly!
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 3:05pm
  Nice mocking LRC. Address the apostasy of leaving pedhophilic priests in the Church as well as followers openly supporting the murder of children (abortion). Those are within the Church’s control and the Church has chosen to do NOTHING about it for a loooonng time now. Go ahead and pretend that that kind of behavior is somehow not apostasy.
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 5:57pm
  Trying to talk to anti catholics and convince them that their church descended from ours and that we are not a cult is like beating your head against a block wall. It sure feels good when you stop. I cant take the ignorance any longer. Judge away people and may God judge you with the same measure!!
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:55pm
  It’s funny that in Randy’s tiny world there is only one way to find God and it’s through the Catholic Church. All you Jews that came before Catholicism? Nope, you knew nothing about the God of Abraham. You non-denominational Christian who has followed no church but picked up a Bible in Afghanistan and read God’s Word and prayed to Him for salvation and asked the Spirit to lead you without once ever attending mass? Nope, you know nothing of the God of Abraham.
  
  In short, when it comes to your faith, you didn’t build it, Catholics did.
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:52pm
  Cafe that is not the case at all. I have never said the catholic church is the only way but you and others call the root of all christian churches ( duh I am not excluding Christ ) a cult. We just want to live and say hey we are all christians who will be judged by our works. You however seek to usurp Christs authority to Judge and Condemn. Good luck with that. Catholics realize that as christians we are one for all and all for one when it comes to our christian faith. After all it was John Paul II that said “you dont have to be catholic to go to heaven, but if you want to experience the fullness of the christian faith you should be catholic.”
  
  And where do you get that catholics are pro abortion. Are you stupid?? Do you not watch the news pertaining to catholics and Obamacare?? We are so pro life that we view contraception is the same as abortion. Get your facts straight before you make yourself look like an idiot or even a bigger one.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:36pm
  Sorry Randy, discerning and defending are not “judging” and “condemning” as you want to try and portray it. We are told to discern good from evil lest the false prophets lead us from the narrow path onto the broad highway. You rely on the Church to tell you the way it is yet God has told you to seek spiritual gifts and to learn for yourself so that you can test what is true an not. You call that claiming God’s power when it is anything but that. Instead you’ve placed your faith in a Church that does exactly what you accuse me of. It has a magisterium which totally denies God’s promise to gift the individual and instead claims that the discernment is strictly decided by Church heirarchy. There is the usurpation you speak of but you turn a blind eye to it.
  
  “And where do you get that catholics are pro abortion. Are you stupid?? … Get your facts straight before you make yourself look like an idiot or even a bigger one.”
  
  The stupid one is the guy who can’t read. Nancy Pelosi advocates for abortion while touting her Catholic faith. Why is she not excommunicated? She is completely unrepentant in her sinful ways. The yeast spreads in the dough. So when you ask whether am I stupid, the obvious answer is no and you’re about as dumb as it comes. No matter what the Bible says about her unrepentant sinning, your Church says she stays and so she does. The same went for your pedophilic priests.
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:23pm
  Sooo you think Nancy Pelosi is the example of all Cathoics?? Sebelious the HHS Secretary has been barred from being able to recieve communion. I am not sure if the same goes for Pelosi. The bar is pretty high for excommunication, committing sin doesnt get you kicked out. The Holy Father did chew her out personally in Rome, I know this for sure. All priests are not pedophiles, not even 1% have been found to be pedophiles. Just as all evangelical ministers are not whoremongers like Swaggert or Jim Baker. Nor are all protestant Sunday school teachers murderers like the one who killed a student of hers and threw her body into a lake in a suitcase. You paint with a very broad brush my friend it’s not right or christian. This goes far beyond “discerning” its evil sir.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:50pm
  Randy, did you fail reading comprehension? Where did I say she was an example of Catholics. I said she is a Catholic. I said she is actively sinning while proclaiming her Catholicism. The Church is aware of her sinning. They refuse to take the appropriate actions as defined in the Bible for an unrepentant sinner.
  
  “The bar is pretty high for excommunication, committing sin doesnt get you kicked out.” Except the Bible tells you what the process is specifically and it is very simple and quick.
  
  “The Holy Father did chew her out personally in Rome, I know this for sure.” And it fixed nothing. Maybe he should have followed the Bible.
  “All priests are not pedophiles, not even 1% have been found to be pedophiles. Just as all evangelical ministers are not whoremongers like Swaggert or Jim Baker. Nor are all protestant Sunday school teachers murderers like the one who killed a student of hers and threw her body into a lake in a suitcase. You paint with a very broad brush my friend it’s not right or christian. This goes far beyond “discerning” its evil sir.” The difference is the Catholics hid the perps and the “Protestants” followed the Bible and publicly condemned them and threw them out (in the case of true churches). It’s not about the number, it’s how the Church treats the sinner.
  1 Corinthians 5 spells it out and it’s been repeated throughout this thread and you still don’t get the simplicity of it.
  
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- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 8:18am
  You are right we are wrong. We hate God, Love idols, worship mortal men, and are on the express elevator to hell. You caught us Cafe good job. And just to think we almost got away with a few more souls. Lucky you were here Cafe. You are so holy and righteous. Alright …. the bus is leaving soon for all of us “psuedo christians” start lining up Satan is very impatient you know.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 7:57pm
  Just another Catholic response that lacks any value whatsoever. You can’t refute a single point about the Church’s behavior so your weak mind runs to sarcasm as a replacement for wisdom.
  
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chucksue351
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:25am
what’s with the red shoes

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- Old Truckers
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:54am
  Who wears red shoes???
  
  And then, that hat seems a bit over the top!
  
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- Wango
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:21am
  I’ll give you one guess.
  
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- DOra Glasberg
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:12pm
  The hot pink were at the shoemakers.
  He peed on them.
- RandyLee7
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:40pm
  Its a tradiion that goes back to Emperor Constantine. After he converted to Christianity (there was only one christioan denomination back then… catholic) the only people allowed to wear red shoes were the emperor his wife and the pope.
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 11:52pm
  Oddly enough, the Orthodox also say there was but a single church and it wasn’t the Roman Catholic. A few others claim apostolic succession and being the only church as well.
  
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- edmundburk
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:08pm
  TO ALL CATHOLICS- don’t try to reason with neanderthal evengelicals like CAFECONSERVATIVE.
  I’ve tried to be charitable in the past, it’s a waste of time. Just do as Jesus tought and shake the dust from your feet…….
  
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- CafeConservative
  Posted on October 22, 2012 at 10:28pm
  Funny, you say hake the dust from your shoes. At what point did you follow the first part of that command to go out and teach God’s Word? Oh you didn’t did you? Good job with your adherence to the convenient parts of Scripture. You make God proud when you twist His Word for your agenda.
  
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Ialmostforgot
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:18am
Seven new miniature statues for the dashboard of your car.
Not to mention the action figures and T-shirts.

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chucksue351
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:41am
ALL born of the spirit persons are considered saints in the scriptural sense, i have to wonder why the catholic church put separtion between its people, follow the scriptures “come out of her, my people”

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- Small_Craft
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:16am
  I was born and raised Catholic, but never agreed with the “saint policy”, especially praying to the saints. Google “damon koch small craft advisory” to read political commentary.
JohnLarson
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:10am
The Church has a history of making up fake saints. They even had to get rid of many, because their stories were taken from pre-Christian deities.

When can humans get over their ancient myths? Even Christianity and the Jesus story is taken from pre-Christian pagan religions.

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Small_Craft
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:01am
I was born and raised Catholic, but never agreed with praying to saints and that whole mystique surrounding them. Google “damon koch small craft advisory” to read political commentary.

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BOspreadnwealth
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:56am
If the Pope wants to genuinely rekindle Catholic faith he might start with excommunicating politicians that support abortion and gay marriage.

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- ShadowPlacebo
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:09am
  Amen to that. Time to get back to the strict religion instead of the wash it’s become. Not to say it’s a wash in itself, just that so many are so lax that it’s giving a bad name.
  
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- dissentnow
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:54am
  He should also release the names, publicly shame, and excommunicate everyone within the Catholic church who knowingly covered up for known child molesters.
  
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- decendentof56
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:58am
  The Catholic “faith”, as they still call it, is lost. Do you think that the fact that Catholic schools are closing and Catholic churches are consolidating is a coincidence?
  So many Catholic’s voted for an individual in the last US election that openly endorses abortion. That says all you need to know about the Catholic “faith.”
  
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- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:21am
  I always wondered how Teddy Kennedy was never excommunicated. You are right though, there are many other politicians still in the church that makes me scratch my head in wonder.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:04am
  Fact is … the Pope has NO authority to appoint saints … God does … and if the Pope was such the man of God he would not put himself over God, knowing better… sorry catholics … just the facts …
  
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AnotherWay
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:56am
The love of God and Christ, like us, take many forms. . . . “And the greatest of these, is love.”

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Tazcat2007
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:56am
Did Elizabeth “Fauxcahontas” Warren attend? She she at least put a statement celebrating “fellow” Indian Kateri Tekakwitha’s sainthood.

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- TIME_2_END_THE_PAUL_CAMPAIGN_IN_12
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:07am
  Warren’s a wooden cigar store Indian…
  
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- louise
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:54am
  lol
  
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- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:23am
  You mean, that wasn’t her in those round wire rimmed glasses and headdress?
  TIME, LOL
  
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- TIME_2_END_THE_PAUL_CAMPAIGN_IN_12
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:54am
  RJJ…. Naw… she’s a poser. An indian “carved” out of a wild imagination, lol.
  
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- TIME_2_END_THE_PAUL_CAMPAIGN_IN_12
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:21am
  RJJ. After going back and looking at the photos… now I get what you were writing about, lol.
  
  The person in THAT pic has way more character in that smiling face than Warren will ever have. But those are some rough choppers! Lol.
  
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Grasshopper42
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:45am
Roman Catholics, Mormons, JW’s, so many cults, so little time till Christ returns . . .

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- woodyee
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:07am
  I get it, Grasshopper…
  
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- italy2007
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:27am
  Perhaps you should be praying for those you hate
  
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- SonOfThunder
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:39am
  Yes the Bible calls those you accept Christ and are born again saints. It is just another way the Roman Catholic Church makes money thru indulgences. Idol worship like praying to their so called saints breaks the fist and second commandment. Being an ex catholic of 46 years I know Catholics are in a cult. The papacy is basically a satanic position. This is the work of the god of this age and world which is Satan. Please Catholics run from your corrupt church found in Revelation 2 Thyratira. Repent and put your trust in Jesus. It is not Jesus plus your works(indulgences) which are your filthy rags. It is Jesus alone.
  
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- justangry
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:32am
  I don’t know, the evangelicals are the ones that weird me out that most despite knowing some wonderful people that consider themsevles evangelicals.
  
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- Ledger
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 8:33am
  Sonofthunder
  I was also born and raised a Catholic, and left that religion when I became an adult. Indulgences were stopped in the middle ages. God is much greater than any limited human concept and God is everywhere and in everything. It is right to venerate people who have dedicated their lives to loving God and serving God through service to others. Venerating saints should not be confused with the worship of God. Only God performs miricals. Due to their lives lived in devotion and service, saints have a deeper devotional and loving relationship with God than most people. That allows them to successfully intercede on behalf of others. Of course, we can go directly to God without asking for a saint’s intercession. But most people don’t have that deep relationship with God that brigs God’s response. May you be filled with God’s grace and love.
  
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- Chaco Burger
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:31am
  I can’t decide which is more disturbing; your ignorance about Catholicism or your willingness to share it so openly.
  
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- Old Truckers
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 9:48am
  Grasshopper,
  
  What faith do you consider to be the true religion?
  
  And why?
  
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- Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:05pm
  Yip, I hear you. The Bible says satan comes “as an angel of light.” Cults are enlightening but wicked false. The most dangerous position is the one closest to truth but false. Galations teaches to add good works to Jesus Christ and one is still headed to hell. It’s 500% Jesus Christ and 0% any of my “good works” that gets me to heaven as a follower of Jesus Christ. What is the salvation doctrinal differences between say a Catholic, Mormon, Johovah Witness, and 7th Day Adventist. ZERO difference. All four are based upon “good works” plus Jesus Christ. All four are cults leading to hell. If you disagree, read the book of Galations. Galations teaches you are lost if you put any of your trust in your “good works” for eternal life. In fact the Bible says all our “good works” are but filthy rags before God. None of our good works can pay for just one sin we have committed. Jesus Christ is the only Way.
  Have a great Lord’s Day and rest up.
  
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- YellowFin
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 1:20pm
  prosecute,
  
  So being good means nothing to God? Why not just kill everyone and rob and steal, rape and fornicate. Doing good and being a good person obeying god’s commands mean nothing?
  
  Wow, I sure am glad you are not my neighbor.
  
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- Grasshopper42
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 2:45pm
  Oldtrucker, religion as the Roman church teaches is man-made. I’ll take a little time, not much, and give you the facts of true religion as is found in the scriptures. James 1:27 says “pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world” all of which is impossible without the regenerative transformative cleansing of Christ’s blood shed for you at Calvary. Without which no man shall see God. (Hebrews 12:14) As other posts have so eloquently stated, all true believers on Christ are saints. (Philippians 1:1)
  
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- Tractorboy
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 10:35pm
  Catholics,Protestants, Brothers and sisters in Christ, Ephesians 3-6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.~~~ Why all the bickering?~~~God chose us, the church, the body, as his ambassador to spead his good word, his promise, where we go, God goes, lets try to remember that, I used to be Catholic, Yes they are full of rituals and traditions, a lot of window dressing, but is it harmful?~~~if you live a Christ centered life and Jesus is your lord and savior we are at the same place. Lets try to be Christs ambassadors with a joyous heart, and share the good news with every man, woman, and child as they say at my house of worship. God Bless
  
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BehindBlueEyes
Posted on October 21, 2012 at 6:44am
I saw several pictures of Obama with a halo around his head. How come he didn’t make the list?

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- TIME_2_END_THE_PAUL_CAMPAIGN_IN_12
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:04am
  Hopefully the reflection from the rim of the toilet we are about to dunk his head in will be captured in a picture…
  
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- woodyee
  Posted on October 21, 2012 at 7:10am
  That wasn’t a halo, Blue-Eyes, it was an antenna…
  
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