Considering atheists’ views about God, the last place one would expect to find a non-believer is attending a church service. However, as TheBlaze has noted, the secular community has taken some intriguing actions in the past few years. On a regular basis, non-believing activists are seemingly borrowing templates and blueprints from religious movements in an effort to rally their own base. But what about churches participating in this process, too?
In September, All Souls Unitarian Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, launched a new service directed at atheists and humanists. The weekly “religious” gathering, like most other church services, meets on Sunday mornings. Called “The Point,” the weekly non-theist gathering was created by the Rev. Marlin Lavanhar when he realized that, despite rejecting God, many non-believers are caring individuals who have a need for community.

Photo Credit: All Souls Unitarian Church
“These are people who are not inspired to live their lives a certain way by ideas of God or by Scripture but who have the same human needs for community, compassion, meaning and marking the significant passages of birth, coming of age, marriage and death,” he told Tulsa World.
TheBlaze has noted the growth of the “nones,” those individuals who are unrelated and detached from any faith community. Among all religious groups, this cohort is the fastest growing. Already, one-in-five Americans are a part of this cohort. While not all of these individuals are atheists and agnostics, they are, at the least, not a part of a grander faith community. It is the growth of the “nones” that caused Lavanhar to create the atheist church service.

Photo Credit: All Souls Unitarian Church
“If I can’t make my case for loving your neighbor without reference to God and Scripture, then I am truly going to miss a huge segment of the population who may find themselves permanently outside the walls of organized religion,” the faith leader explained.
The weekly church services are attended by between 100 to 200 non-believers, but they sometimes attract even more humanists. The meetings, which begin at 8:30 a.m., are described as follows on the church’s official web site:
“The Point is a service that draws from history, philosophy, literature, poetry, and nature. Come and experience love beyond belief in this Humanist service. No robes, no hymns, no prayers, or scriptures. Just a relevant message, inspiring music by Rick Fortner and friends, and a community committed to the common good. Join us on this journey of depth and discovery…”
Tulsa World notes that, while the rhetoric is different at these services when compared to the comments uttered at a typical church, some of the structure is not. Instead of opening with the line, ”This is the day the Lord has made,” one of the humanist services opened, “This is a day not of our own making.” Not invoking God’s name is intentional, as Lavanhar claims that using such language “turns a lot of people off.”
In place of religious music, of course, was a song from “The Book of Mormon,” a Broadway show that is viewed by some as an offensive assault on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints theology.
As for Lavanhar, he believes deeply in God and is hopeful that his efforts will successfully bring different people together in harmony. While he rejects the notion that Jesus is a deity, he believes that Christ is one path through which people discover God. Despite coming to the church as atheists, he told Tulsa World that many people do end up adopting theistic positions after attending services and learning more about the church’s teachings.
(H/T: KFAQ’s Pat Campbell)
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Related:
- If You’re Less Religious, Are You Also Less Likely to Vote?
- Pew: 20% of Americans Are Now Atheist, Agnostic or Unaffiliated With a Religion



















































































































Comments (127)
MrSunshine
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:56pmI am the Reverand Sum Dum *** of the First Unbelievers Church Knights Of False Forecasts.
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MrSunshine
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:01pmThat would be Sum Dum Fuq.
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jimnjoy
Nov. 13, 2012 at 1:59pmThese accommodating people have always been with us and will continue until the very end. Woe to the true believer’s who don’t try to correct them. “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Matthew 7:15-23, (part). The saddest words in the whole Bible are Jeremiah 8:20: “The harvest is past, the summer has ended, and we are not saved.” Don’t wait until it is too late, and read the BIBLE to know what is truth.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:13pm“Truth” to some. . . is folly to others. I understand that christians must see “all the scripture as the word of god”. However, there are those who know the past histories and will not share your beliefs. No problem with that. Many people have differing opinions. . . . . .just don’t be offended when someone doesn’t see your beliefs as “truth”, regardless of what your “holy book” may say.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:42pm@DEVON
Truth is knowledge, which you choose not to allow yourself to experience, and that only leaves ignorance, which you profoundly exhibit here on a regular basis.
You can believe what makes you feel good if you like, but history and archeology are on the side of that “truth” which you call folly. And no wonder: “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Cor 1:18
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diyadventurer
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:56pmYour beliefs are not everyone’s beliefs. Everyone in this country is entitled to religious freedoms, even if that means freedom from religion itself. I think this is a wonderful idea and look forward to attending to find out how I can be a better part of my community…because from what I’ve learned in Tulsa, it certainly isn’t accomplished by being a judgmental person dressed in Christian intentions.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:17pmBEREAN, demonstrate my ignorance. . . WITH evidence. Show your work. Prove to me that I am wrong. I’ll be waiting.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:38pmYou believe in fairies. What do you want?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:59pmTry to comprehend. I do NOT believe in faeries. I use it to prove a point. Faeries are equal in their “claim of the supernatural”. Don’t like faeries? Pick another “faith” religion with supernatural claims. The point is, . . . until a demonstration can be made, the claim is no more valid than any other belief subgroup who ALSO make supernatural claims.
This all can be resolved very simply. Demonstrate that YOU. . . are right. Do so with adequate evidence in your favor.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:12pmWell, if not fairies then what? Magic?
And what exactly do you want me to demonstrate?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:26pmberean, . . . I am not here to dispute claims of “someone having existed in 1st century palestine”. Was there a person named “Jesus”? Perhaps. Maybe even several of them. Am I influenced by the names of kings and rulers of that time being found in the pages of the bible? No. It was written during that time and I would expect them to do so.
What IS in question are the claims of the supernatural. That there IS “a god who cares about people”. However, without anything to test, . . . without an undeniable experience, . . . such claims are mere words. You ask “what I would want”? That’s the problem. If you have evidence, it shouldn’t be required of me to state what it SHOULD be, or what would be compelling. If it is sound, it will be able to stand on its own. If not, . . . then it is opinion.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:59pmSo you denounce the indisputable evidence which can be found in the Bible as folly, and require your own personal miraculous event, right?
How about someone being raised from the dead?
How about a man being blind from birth, who could suddenly see?
Would something like that be evidence?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 14, 2012 at 11:06amMy post was there, . . . now it is gone. Don’t know why, either. There wasn’t anything there that was controversial. I’ll just try to sum up what I said.
I can’t give you “biblical stories” as “indisputable evidence”. Other faiths have stories which would be equally impossible to determine their veracity, . . . but also include supernatural occurrences. So no, biblical accounts would not qualify.
Now, if someone was raised from the dead today, it would be a fascinating occurrence, but even if people were praying to a specific god, that still wouldn’t be evidence that the god [prayed to] was the cause.
I’m an agnostic/skeptic. I can’t rule out any “god” type beings existing. I’ve yet to see credible evidence of it. So I can see someone having a deistic world view. But stepping it up to “a personal god who cares for me, personally”? That is what I do not see [at all]. Even though I understand a person’s STRONG belief in a “god”, I cannot use that as a compelling argument.
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theotherberean
Nov. 14, 2012 at 12:09pmSo even though those Biblical accounts are valid, historical facts, you still deny them?
And you will believe in God, only if he fits into the mold you think He should?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 15, 2012 at 8:45amIf it is a supernatural claim, . . . no. I don’t believe them. Historical, there are various sources with differing data, for and against. It is open to interpretation.
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pilgrim249
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:49pmdeavo—There are the children of the Beast, and there are the children of God. It is obvious to all, which group you belong to.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:57pmAnswered above…
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NeilChapin
Nov. 13, 2012 at 1:09pmThe Aethists are secular religious, so they believe in a different god, but are too arrogant to even admit it. Read fresh political commentary at:http://smallcraftadvisorychronicles.blogspot.com/
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 1:18pmPlease list the way they are “religious”.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:45pmReligious people are those who adhere to a particular set of beliefs.
That’s you, @DEVON
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brother_ed
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:38pmAtheism by definition is: ‘a’ – without + ‘theos’ – god.
Those who make the argument that atheism is a religion are similar to those who say a homosexual union is marriage; it completely disregards the standard usage or intent of the word.
Christians need stop going around telling people they are going to ‘burn for eternity’, or that they are ‘soulless’ because they are not believers. It is neither helpful, nor Biblical.
Some people have not had good experiences in church, or they were not sufficiently taught. Perhaps they were thinking of becoming Christian, but upon observing some of the actions of those professing to be followers have determined that they would prefer not to become associated with the church.
Whatever the reason, it is not our duty to reprimand them, it is our duty to love them.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:14pmWho are you chastising, Brother Ed? Anyone in particular, or just grumbling about Christians in general?
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:18pmI adamantly disagree.
Atheism does most certainly fit the description of a religion. Atheists have a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. Look it up.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:21pmHaving a working theory of something doesn’t equate to a religious position. If science discovers a new reality about the beginnings of the universe, the text books will eventually change to depict that. There is no “worship”. There are no “unprovables” that are held as “absolute truth”.
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colt1860
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:29pmWhen people say atheism is a religion, they are referring to “militant atheists”, and not necessarily to all atheists, or atheism in general. That is, it’s made in connection to those who treat atheism as if it were a religion. These atheists defend it, abide by its defacto creed, share it, express it, spread it everywhere and anywhere, and fight any who oppose it. They hold strong to their belief and won’t compromise. They see any attempt of promulgating any differing belief as a threat, and will therefore try to advance it where possible, and exalt it above all others. They are ‘Jihadists’ in their own minds, and will sue, transform and change society, Governments and culture in order to force their agenda and beliefs.
…Of course, these certain atheists usually turn out to be ultra leftists, Marxists, anarchists and liberals.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:43pm@DEVON
Having a working theory means it is at least feasible.
Concerning the validity of the Bible and the notion of having faith in Jesus Christ, there is enough evidence in that which I can hold in my hand, to allow me to believe that which I cannot.
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brother_ed
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:09pm@THEOTHERBEREAN
I am speaking to: PILGRIM249, NEILCHAPIN & others to whom this comment fits.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:12pmBrother Ed…. Whew!
LoL
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ImChiquita
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:51amTulsa: the Unitarian Church. Agenda 21 “green initiatives.” It makes sense now!
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thibx
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:52amjudgement starts at the house of God. it’s because of preachers like this who don’t know Jesus Christ that this country is in the shape it is.
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THERAPTURCOMES
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:34amAMEN
This be no church at all and that man has only a mans label of Rev. This is the apostate church warned of for the last days.
Soon the resurrection/rapture will happen and leave all unbelievers behind and in this number will be cults and apostate wannabe churches.
With all that is going on in this world, even the secular world sees and knows something big is approaching and here this wannabe church is not getting the gospel out Romans 10:9-10. Even to those that enter its building
Real Christians understand that we are so close to the resurrection/rapture and know that time is of the essence and are working hard to get the gospel out
They also realize that they can impact a left behind world by preparing AFTER RAPTURE PACKETS http://youtu.be/ahEVxIzlxwo
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THERAPTURCOMES
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:37amI will add these verses just as I used them for anyone trying to vote for Romney or Obama of which, both are servants of satan
2 Cor 6:14-18, James 4:4
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:01pmI think it is a bit melodramatic to blame this countries path on “preachers like this”. I would bet the percentage of “these preachers” would be in the single didgets.
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Chatikh
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:01pmNice Christian lack of judgement guys. Who are you to say whether the pastor or whatever is a Christian or not? Only God would know. Until you become god, follow what Jesus taught.
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THERAPTURCOMES
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:50pmCHAT
The bible clearly defines what a believer of Christ is and it is Romans 10:9-10 and the doctrines contained in the bible deals with all invented idols labeled Christ
Did you know Christ taught more on Hell than any other subject?
Each Christian is a disciple of Christ and is commanded to spread the gospel (great commission).
Here are some bible verses for you 2 Cor 6:14-18, James 4:4
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G-WHIZ
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:37am1–A drunk walks by and stops to view a snazzy deadman in the Funeral-Parlor’s front-display window;
2–He goes inside and asks the director: ” What a great suit! But, who is he?”
3–Director: “our mayor!”;
4–Drunk: “Is he Christian or Jewish?”
5–Director: “No! He’s an ATHEIST!”
6–Drunk: “Ooh! All dressed-up and nowhere to go!”
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thegreatcarnac
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:32amThis preacher (if that is what you call him) is going too far. He is delusional.
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DarkestbeforeDawn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:41amGod existed before us. He does not need us to believe in Him to exist.
But what happens to us if He chooses to no longer believe in our existence?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:47amWell, . . . I would have to question “his” mental state, then.
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brother_ed
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:04am@DEAVONREYE
The reason that non-believers have such and easy time bashing Christians is because none of us has all the answers; we are learning and often misspeak.
The notion that just because we go to church or read our scriptures makes us all-knowing and experts is false.
Of course, it doesn’t help when disciples claim to have all the answers.
I, for one, am deficient in the ability to convince someone of the truthfulness of the Bible – but I do have a testimony that there is a God. I got this testimony from study, prayer, and practice as well as having a sincere desire to know the truth. This knowledge is available to everyone if they will do the same.
Go easy on those of us who are stumbling down the path of truth…it causes contention – and we could use a lot less of that.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:20amEd, . . . I agree that many [probably most] christians are not experts on the bible or their religious doctrine. I understand that people have an emotional attachment to their beliefs and do not hold that against them. You may not know my past, and I won’t get into it much here, but I WAS as sincere about “knowing the truth” for many years [as it pertained to god]. That was my greatest failure, and one that shouldn’t have happened, IF god was real. I was sincere and honest. Nothing happened.
Now, I don’t respond to MOST posts from christians on here. Just ones that make ridiculous [or thought-less] comments such as above where the guy said “people who don’t believe in a god have no soul, thus would enjoy seeing christians being killed” [paraphrased]. That is entirely absurd, and demonstrates a very EVIL mindset, masquerading as “a moral christian”.
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brother_ed
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:28am@DEAVONREYE
I understand.
It’s difficult to discern between an idiot and one who is half-way up the mountain of truth.
One needs correction, the other needs encouragement.
I believe patience with each other is needed now, so I am trying hard to err on the side of mercy.
I have no problem with those who don’t believe or with those who stopped believing, or those who believe differently than me; You go your way and I’ll go mine. I am no judge, nor do I care to be.
The problem as I see it is that no one wants another’s beliefs forced on them, and it has come to the point where people are so sensitive that the mere expressing of an opinion or display of a belief is considered an affront.
The atheists think saying ‘merry Christmas’ is offensive, the religionists think that anyone who is offended is the devil himself.
Time to take a deep breath. Neither thinks contention is healthful or helpful.
That’s all. No offense was intended…
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:58amIndeed Ed. I prefer to debate without contention. We can have healthy debates, disagree with the other, and not use it as a chance to attack someone personally. Now, if a person says an obviously stupid and insensitive thing, I will speak against it. If someone attacks without provocation, just to be malevolent, I will respond [often in kind]. But I’d rather just have civil debates.
And there is no reason to even “go your way, and me, mine”. I have friends who are believers, and I still care greatly for them. My family members may say something. I still love them.
I personally don’t have a problem with “merry christmas”. I can see a nativity scene and just walk buy. It happened this past weekend. Sure, I may roll my eyes at various doctrines, but at THIS time in history, I think it best to stick together, regardless of world view, to stand against what MAY come about in a second Obama term. That is far more important than disagreements here.
So, thanks for your posts, Ed. I respect your viewpoint.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:51pm@DEVON
What a load of bull. No one who has read many of your posts actually believes that crap. LoL
And you think Christians are delusional.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:53pmBerean, . . . when someone says something stupid, I will be more likely to call them on it. What I was saying to Ed WAS sincere, regardless of what you think. I was agreeing with Ed and having a civil conversation with him. SOME people are incapable of that. Perhaps you are one of them.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:00pmSo who put you in charge of what is stupid and what is not?
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pilgrim249
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:35amThere are two species of humans on this earth: those who have a soul, and those who do not; and this divide crosses all political, racial, and religious lines.
When a man declares that there is no God, he is also declaring that he has no soul—and you have to think that he knows himself better than anyone else knows him.
The destruction comes when those with no soul are elevated to places of power: then you face a Nazi holocaust, a Maoist massacre of millions, and coliseums full of soulless animals cheering wildly as Christian children are eaten by lions—many on the left in America today would rejoice to see Biblical Christians and Jews devoured in coliseums as in Roman days.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:44amPilgrim, .. . . if that WASN’T satire, . . . you’re a freaking idiot [with a comment like that].
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pilgrim249
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:25pmDeav…There are children of the Beast, and there are the children of God. It is obvious to all, which group you belong to.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:39pmI belong to neither. I prefer reality. Pilgrim, I am a non-religious person. However, I don’t want to see you, nor any other christian, being killed for any reason, . . . and especially not “for sport”. I task you to find ANY true atheist who would claim that as a desire! There ARE dangerous people in the world. However, they are that way for either political reasons, or because they belong to a religion that wants world domination [Islam]. But I trust I don’t have to explain how it CAN be “followers of Yahweh” who also have killed children.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:54pm@DEVON
So much for “We can have healthy debates, disagree with the other, and not use it as a chance to attack someone personally.”
Like I said, you’re delusional and especially about how wonderful you are.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:57pm@DEVON, yes you are religious, as I pointed out, whether you believe it or not.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:50pmI am unphased by your personal attack, berean. I’m secure in who I am. Having said that, I’m not going to let ignorance go uncritiqued.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:57pmWell then you better get busy on yourself. LoL
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:59pmInsisting we believe in fairies is not a veiled personal attack?
Baloney.
You’re here for one reason. To masturbate your ego.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:03pmYou are a childish fool, berean. Did you get a joy out of writing that word down?
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:23pmI thought you didn’t attack people’s person, mr hypocrite.
Oh, I get it, I’m being stupid and that gives you the right. LoL
Can you say “delusional,” @DEVON?
Sure.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:54pmI don’t attack if others don’t. But I’m not going to let someone walk on me with irrational arguments or attacks.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:10pmToo late.
LoL
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:13pmWhich “irrational” arguments are you referring to?
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Gonzo
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:04am“No robes, no hymns, no prayers, or scriptures. ” That only leaves the collection plate, couldn’t leave that out, now could you?
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SilentRunner
Nov. 13, 2012 at 8:55amUnitarian “church” explains everything. Unitarians do not believe in Christ nor God. They are “searching for the truth”.
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4truth2all
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:33amMany of them suppress the truth… they take the sugar out of the recipe and say yummy!
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G-WHIZ
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:40am…so….they sit around and stare at each-other…and put their hand in their pants to “find” themselves.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 8:50amIf a god exists, . . . and it does as the bible claims [forming people in their mother's womb, in their inmost being], then that would mean that each person develops just as they have, . . . and in every aspect. In fact, . . . they wouldn’t have been able to KEEP from being who they are now, if they are honest. Those who “act out, due to rebellion” are a different case. But what of those who find nothing of value in “a personal god”? What IF they life an equally good life as a christian does [if not better]? Because a person may except credulity, they are somehow more “fit for heaven”? That would be the worst determiner of a person’s TRUE character.
So, what is so odd about a gathering such as this? Sure, I wouldn’t call it “a church”. That term carries a great deal of religious baggage with it. But one thing I lost, when I left the church, . . . fellowship with other people. Even if it was mostly fake [on their part], at least there were people around to talk to. I can see something like “The Point” being popular. You can meet up with like minded people interested in living a moral life. I would like to have something similar in my city. Maybe it would even give me another opportunity to play music again [bass]. Regardless, it seems like a positive thing.
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jman-6
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:06amThe use of the one True God needs to be capitalized and the rest are little g gods. God demands and is due that kind of respect! God Speed
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:28amBut YOUR faith belief is no more valid than many others. I personally don’t see ANY “god” character being true, but even if you have accepted ONE amongst thousands of others, . . . your “certainty” doesn’t make it the default. That’s the problem with religions today. PEOPLE make claims, . . . then become offended when you merely don’t believe them. Please don’t take it personal.
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DarkestbeforeDawn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:39amYou forgot about freewill. Scripture says God knew us in the womb. But with freewill, we are free to reject him just as we are free to find him again. It’s not God’s fault if we choose not too.
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4truth2all
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:42amYo Devonreye:
You miss community because God created you for it in your mother’s womb. You can still have community without God … just ain’t family. That’s why gangs exist. In fact may christians (maybe) have a gang mentality called denominations some of which is justified due to false teachings.
God exists in a community … Father, Son, and Holy Spirit …
Good day
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:05amDawn, . . . what does “free will” have to do with how I was created [if a god DOES make each of us with specific characteristics]? I cannot “choose” against that which I don’t see any evidence IN. Can you “choose to personally reject Faeries”? You may say, “they don’t exist”. Prove it. There are those who KNOW they do. What about “choosing to personally reject Allah, Zeus, Odin, . . . Heckate”? Here’s the kicker. Can you do that WHILE “knowing they actually exist”?
2all, . . . people can have community [even considering it 'family'] without a god. Absolutely!
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4truth2all
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:20amYo Reye:
I like the way you TWIST truth to suit you … not so clever as you would have yourself believe.
Yes, you can consider others (people) as family even if by not by blood. The TRUE church is part of the FAMILY of God determined by HIM! ( Everyone is invited though). His family is eternal … yours comes to it’s end.
Good day … 4truth
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:21amDeavonReye wrote…
‘What IF they life an equally good life as a christian does [if not better]? Because a person may except credulity, they are somehow more “fit for heaven”?’…
Simply put…Ephesians 2:8-9
8 ‘For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.’
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momrules
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:38amGood Morning Deavonreye. i think about you frequently and you remain in my prayers. I have no doubt that you are a good person and live a good life but that just isn’t all there is to it.
I wish more than that for you, for all people. I have been reading Romans again. None of us have a right to judge you, that remains God’s and only God’s right but as a Christian I would be remiss to not urge you to give God another chance. He is willing to give you one.
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:01amDeavonReye wrote…
‘Can you “choose to personally reject Faeries”? You may say, “they don’t exist”. Prove it. There are those who KNOW they do.’
Oh the hypocrisy in your post…If one must ‘prove’ that ‘faeries’ don’t exist, if they personally reject the existence of ‘faeries’…then you have just put the burden of proof on yourself to prove there is no God.
To answer your question of ‘can one ‘choose’…YES, life is full of choices…
I can ‘choose’ to believe in faeries…and I can ‘choose’ to dismiss they exist, neither choice has an effect on my life…A faerie was not crucified for the sins of mankind…NOR allah, zeus, odin or heckate…
There is only ONE…Jesus Christ…
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:05am2all, your believe in “an eternal family” is not evidential. What you may have seen as me “twisting truth” was just my opinion. I will tell you this. I was VERY involved in my church. Even so, people were still . . . people. They had their clicks. They “did their part” to welcome in the odd people [saw it many times]. But, they didn’t have to accept “THOSE” people as “a family”. Just someone to have around because “it was the christian thing to do”. Did they do things with them outside a formal church function? NO! Just the way people are. In church or out, they still have “a click group” they hang with.
grtdcptn, again I will openly and boldly say, . . . “faith” and “credulity” is the worst way to determine a person’s character. I’ve seem MANY people just on THIS site that are mean, vandictive, and immoral,. . . while claiming to be “a christian”. They surely are the ones who “BOAST”.
momrules, I am incapable of “giving god another chance”. IF there is a god, I think that ~20 years of “giving ‘him’ a chance” was far more than I ever needed. Having said that, I wish there were more christians who would follow their own religion [and the part of Romans you speak of] and keep their invalid judgements to themselves. Though I usually have disagreement with what you post, momrules, at least you have a GOOD spirit about your posts. I appreciate that, and try to return in kind.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:16amgrtdcptn, why does it matter if your religious story has “a suffering savior”? Does it make it more valid? It is still a “faith matter”.
The point of asking you if you “choose faeries” is that you are incapable of determining their reality or non-existence. You telling me that my “choice to reject Jesus” NOT being the same as “you rejecting faeries” is the same. You don’t believe [at all, apparently] that faeries exist. Therefore, your “choice” isn’t a true choice. Not really. In the same way, I see no evidence of any “personal Jesus deity” existing. I can’t “make a choice against that” as if the Jesus person DOES exist. It isn’t the same as “making a choice between buying a Ford, and rejecting a Honda”.
Do you see the difference here? Just like you do not, at all, believe in the existence of faeries, . . . nor do I believe in the god you have accepted. This “choice” would be the same as “choosing to buy the Ford, and rejecting the flying carpet”. Is that REALLY a choice? Could you have actually CHOSEN the flying carpet? . . . . . if you’re a sain person? Of course not.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:30am“You telling me that my “choice to reject Jesus” NOT being the same as “you rejecting faeries” is the same.”
I didn’t make this clear with the way I worded it. I got sidetracked. The point is, . . . it isn’t hypocritical. I don’t make any claims that “faeries ARE real”. But there are those who do. MANY supernatural entities are believed in. The common denominator is . . . people utilize “faith” in their beliefs. That should be a red flag, shouldn’t it? I purposefully chose a being [faery] because you KNOW they aren’t real. Right? So, was it “a choice for you to reject faeries, knowing they actually ARE real”? . . . . . . Or, was it a NON-choice because there wasn’t anything to decide between? Again, it isn’t the decision between a Ford or Honda. It is the “decision” between the Ford or Flying Carpet. . . . . which isn’t even “a choice” to begin with. If those were the only two options for transportation, . . . The Ford would win out everytime. Any “carpet” would just decorate the floor of your residence.
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:41amDeavonReye wrote…
‘I wish there were more christians who would follow their own religion’
God is NOT a religion…religion was formed by MAN…not God…
Sitting in a ‘church’ does NOT make one a Christian…
It should be evident by the numerous fracturing of so-called religions, who over time break away to form their own denominations because of discrepancies. There is only one truth…the word of God, and it has been known for years that ‘churches’ no longer preach the word of God, they have wandered down their own path of belief, only teaching that which benefits themselves…or fancys those who fill the pews.
I have no use for those who lead Christians astray…God…and His word, is all one needs…
Don’t misunderstand, I am not saying there is no need for socializing, but I will not sit in a pew and be told there is more than one way to salvation, such as through works, when I know there is no truth to such words.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 11:49amI understand, grtdcptn. However, we disagree on how the bible came about. That debate would be long and not on topic here. Regardless, I don’t think this Unitarian church is expecting to “get them to heaven”. Just seems to be an attempt at a social group that listens to someone
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Chatikh
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:12pm@THEGRTDCPTN
“‘Can you “choose to personally reject Faeries”? You may say, “they don’t exist”. Prove it. There are those who KNOW they do.’
Oh the hypocrisy in your post…If one must ‘prove’ that ‘faeries’ don’t exist, if they personally reject the existence of ‘faeries’…then you have just put the burden of proof on yourself to prove there is no God.”
Wow, I’m sorry but I worry about your reading comprehension. He was saying that that’s what YOU do. You require those who don’t believe in a god to prove that your god doesn’t exist, when you don’t require proof that Zeus or Odin or faeries don’t exist to say they don’t exist. He’s saying the burden of proof is on YOU, to prove that God exists. And no, a warm and tingly feeling is not proof any god exists. Ask any prosecutor how reliable a feeling is. Since the adoption of science as a way to describe the world and universe around us, the burden of proof has fallen on those who make claims, not on those who don’t believe them.
And guess what? “Science, it works bi***es!”
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 1:47pmDeavonReye,
If God was visible to mankind, for all time…where does that leave Free Will, to seek or deny Him…
There would be no need for Faith, since we would know His existence is real…
Do you believe it matters…or would there still be those who would deny Him, and His gift of salvation…How does one know of His sacrifice (crucified) unless they were alive to witness His death, and resurrection…
It will one day happen…again…
http://www.gotquestions.org/release-Satan.html
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:10pmThis is what I will say about “free will”, when it comes to “faith” matters. It is useless [the "free will"]. Outside of ACTUALLY knowing two sides are real, for a person [such as myself] to be honest, the evidence MUST be there, else, there IS only one position to take. If it is “a matter of faith”? Useless to making an informed decision. No other way to say this. Not sure why it is hard for many to understand.
As for “his sacrifice”, . . . I have my own opinion on that doctrine, . . . and don’t see it as you do.
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4truth2all
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:27pmYo Deavonreye:
Not sure what your point was about the “clicks” … sorry
You have YOUR opinion about the cross … that’s your “problem” if I may use that word without insult. It is not about your or my opinion … it is about understanding. Understanding what scripture says is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of learning, of effort! Lack of understanding opens a person up to their “opinion”.
You are probably correct in an earlier statement that many “christians” have a poor understanding of their bibles.
I also agree that we can chose to get along in this life together , but it is commanded of me to speak the truth of scripture.
Good day …4truth 2Devonreye
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:43pmChatikh wrote…
‘You require those who don’t believe in a god to prove that your god doesn’t exist’…
I have NO expectations of others, nor do I expect others to ‘prove’ their point, regardless of the subject. I have no issues with non-believers, they are free to choose their own beliefs, just as I should be able to choose my beliefs.
‘He’s saying the burden of proof is on YOU, to prove that God exists. And no, a warm and tingly feeling is not proof any god exists.’
I don’t carry your burden of “proof”…I am not the one who denies God’s existence…My Salvation is not dependent on your belief, or lack thereof…
‘And guess what? “Science, it works bi***es!”
Disrespect deserves to be dismissed and ignored, consider it done…
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:47pm2all, . . . I prefer getting along in this life, even with disagreements. And I support your right to speak what you feel is “true”. It may not be the case in the future.
When it comes to the bible, yes, it really IS opinion/interpretation. It’s why there are SO many denominations that often fight with others. It is vague enough, and sometimes contradictory enough, that you DO have these denominations.
The “clicks” had to do with the idea of “the family of god”. Sure, when you are in church, you will let “the odd people” in, . . . but it is just a way to make themselves FEEL like they are all encompassing, . . . and are “pleasing god” that way. But they still have certain people they actively do things [outside of church] with.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:51pmContrasting one who has faith in Jesus Christ to one who believes in fairies is only a valid comparison in your mind. (which is inferior to that of a Christian due to a self imposed lack of knowledge) There is no hard evidence that fairies have ever existed, while there is very much historical and archeological evidence that Jesus Christ is everything the Bible says He is.
Deal with it.
But we understand. Your reasoning is willfully hampered and skewed by ignorance. I was the worst skeptic myself at one time, being also willfully ignorant. But logic and reason finally led me to the truth, because I belong to Jesus Christ. Some people are just too stupid to accept reality. I guess that’s you?
All one must do is, with an open Bible, an open mind and an open and sincere heart, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth, as you read the Bible. If that doesn’t work, well, that’s too bad because you may not be one of the elect. But I would keep trying until you’re absolutely sure if I were you. Jesus said He knows His sheep and they know Him. But not all will be saved. If that’s you then I hope you like barbeque.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:00pmThe only time I was stupid was when I was attempting to SINCERELY [freakin READ that word!!!] trying to “reach god”. Do you actually think your stance is more validated by your use of “ignorance”, “just too stupid”, and crap like that? You make a CLAIM. Regardless of whether or not there were a FEW things that are correct in the bible, that doesn’t mean it ALL is, . . . unless you’re deluded.
As for faeries, you don’t know what some have BELIEVED to be true. How about the ancient Greek gods? Are they validated by their historical setting? NO!
If you have actual evidence that YOU are right, then give it! It is just that simple. If you have a REALITY that you can demonstrate, DO IT!!! If you’re going to call me “stupid”, you’d better have a damn good reason, boy!
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:37pmWell, if you were trying to reach God and you think that was stupid, it was, if you’re not one of His sheep. Maybe you should stop trying to be something that you aren’t.
So you ignore that which “can” be PROVEN, claiming it should not be believed because there is much that has not (yet) been proven? This is a prime example of the willful ignorance you exhibit, yet deny. So much for logic and reason.
What you say about fairies, again just proves my argument. There is no evidence for fairies. There is much evidence that Jesus Christ is everything the Bible says He is.
You demand evidence. I have all the facts one needs to draw a logical conclusion that Jesus really did exist and the Bible speaks the truth about who He is and what He did. What “special” evidence do you need, or expect?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:52pmI didn’t think it was stupid at the time. I was raised in the church. I gave a LOT of my life to it. I could not have been any more sincere than I was. No doubt! So I DID stop being who I wasn’t because I started to feel like a hypocrit.
I ignore what cannot be proven, mostly. I won’t accept something AS truth without evidence. I may find it interesting! I may research to discover its probably validity! But I require more than just the words of others telling me “it is true”. This goes for what may be found in the bible. Just because there may be some historical places or even events in it, . . . that does not mean that the supernatural aspects were also true. That is what needs to be demonstrated. . . . and what I am open to! It has yet to happen.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:17pmSo it’s all a lie until you witness a miracle? Then it will all be true?
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4truth2all
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:13pmYo Devonreye:
A true church invites ALL people in to hear. Not ALL people in the church may feel that way.
Scripture does not contradict itself .. like I said … lack of understanding.
I am not trying to “save” you … this would seem not to be, but much of what you say is simply incorrect on a number of levels.
4truth2devonreye …Good day
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DeavonReye
Nov. 15, 2012 at 8:52amI’m having posts missing.
2all, . . . a true church MAY “invite all people”. But that doesn’t mean the actual people will truly welcome in odd balls. They will do what I have seen happen many times. Either they will “accept them during church functions, but not in their ACTUAL personal life”, or they will push them [odd balls] together as “a fellowship group” and think their actions “pleasing to god”. Some will be sincere. No doubt. There are GOOD people out there. I just speak from experience.
And yes, the scriptures absolutely DO contradict in many places. You just have to do your own search on non-apologetic types of webpages. If you see these sources as “incorrect”, that is your choice to not look them up. But I can assure you that I am hardly “incorrect on a number of levels”. If you wish to specify, I will be glad to listen.
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rghtwngcrzy
Nov. 13, 2012 at 8:48amFor where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. – Jesus
No invocation = No Jesus = Club Meeting
Should be called The Pointless.
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MrEDS
Nov. 13, 2012 at 8:17amUnitarian’s can hold a door knob up as God .Its a feel good religion . Not a Father ,Son and the Holy Ghost religion. And, you got that straight from the horse’s mouth.
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Mapotter
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:59amSounds like teaching Christian principles to me….
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HOOT_OWL
Nov. 13, 2012 at 8:03amHELL and HEAL sound close too .
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HOOT_OWL
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:54amWhy is it every one of these nut jobs start their own brand of religion they are somehow tied to Christianity..? This guy does not believe that Jesus is our the Savior. So why do we cal him
A Rev. ..? or where they meet a church..? Why not call him something else and maybe where they gather ..call the building a mosque.. its like everything goes to insulting our faith , but do not touch Islam . He believes in ‘many way to get to heaven’ maybe he should call himself a Imam instead.
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Pastor Melissa
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:52amWow. The biggest problem I see in religion today is our religious education. We don’t do it enough to make a valid argument to an atheistic group. Now we have a minister who is going the opposite direction in order to draw them in.
Jesus ate and talked with those who were not in the temple but he also taught them. This is bad. This is very bad.
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emh1701
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:51amI’m sorry, but this is not a church service if there is no prayer or scripture. If you take out God from church, you’re not left with church, you’re left with a weekly meeting, which we can get at work anyway.
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PorkPIG
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:41amI think this is Great , Alot of ppl Feel them selves equal to god and go ahead and damn and judge ppl . God will judge souls in his way and that is not for us to decide . I dont support gays and atheists etc…but on the other hand I treat them no differently than another ppl . This seems like a way to maybe bridge the gap of hate towards Christians from these ppl by welcoming them into our House .
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:34amChristians do NOT equal themselves to God, they honor Him. Are Christians to judge, let’s see…
John 7:24 ‘Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly’…
Also…
“One of the most often quoted scriptures is ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged.’ Taken out of context, the verse has been used to incorrectly justify never taking a stand on anything that would require a judgment to be made. Rather, the verse is referring to hypocritical, self-righteous, unfair kinds of judgment, especially where the confronter is guilty of the same sin as the one being confronted.”
I find your post quite judgemental, YOU are judging all Christians of treating others differently, which is blatantly false…answer this, through the many interactions that people encounter daily, do you truly believe people ask ‘Are you a believer in Christ…?!’ before proceeding…NO, and the same applies to all other aspects of a person’s life.
This ‘church’ is not about bridging a gap, ‘It is the growth of the ‘nones’ that caused Lavanhar to create the atheist church service.’ It is no more than a ‘feel good’ building, void of God…’The Point, the weekly non-theist gathering was created by the Rev. Marlin Lavanhar when he realized that, despite rejecting God, many non-believers are caring individuals who have a need for community.’
‘Not invoking God’s name is intentional, as Lavanhar claims that using such language ‘turns a lot of people off.’
‘rejects that Jesus
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TheGrtDcptn
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:37amcontinued..
In closing, He is a False Prophet…
‘While he REJECTS the notion that Jesus is a deity, he believes that Christ is ONE PATH through which people discover God.’
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David-FL
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:38amIt is Humanism. It is like attending a Self-Help Seminar. It is Works Righteousness. It may do you some good but it will never prepare you for Heavan. We aren’t accepted by God for who we [become]. No, we are accepted by what Christ did [for] us. We are saved by Faith from First to Last.
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justangry
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:37amThere’s nothing weird about secular people wanting the benefits of a congregation.
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brother_ed
Nov. 13, 2012 at 9:55am@JUSTANGRY
There is nothing wrong with that at all, however I think the point of the contention is that this is done by a ‘church’.
Most of us who believe in God and Jesus also believe in the devil. The devil is an adversary who tries to get us off track and not follow Jesus, nor believe in God, thus thwarting God’s plan.
He has many weapons at his disposal – counterfeit is one of them. Instead of love there is lust, instead of joy there is pleasure, etc.
The homosexual crowd wants to have the benefit of marriage (instituted by God in the Garden of Eden), and the secularists want to have the benefit of a ‘congregation’ without going to church.
These are counterfeits, hence the outrage from those who can see through the disguise.
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checkingbothsides
Nov. 13, 2012 at 1:53pmI think it’s great. As a secular humanist, one of the things I miss about church is the sense of community. I wish the Unitarian church here would do something similar, although to be honest the Unitarians are already a “all faiths and creeds welcome” organization.
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toiletclogga
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:32amSounds like a club, not a church. As for churches, these buildings do not exist for the saved, but for the unsaved. I am proof positive that atheists can become believers! Keep trying fellow believers!
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paulusmaximus
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:31amMy Point proven Atheism is a religion and in all aspects should be force to face the same restrictions they impose on those of us who believe in the true GOD.
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justangry
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:43amExcept there’s no leap of faith believing in something that cannot be proven.
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Sol Invictus
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:50amWhat restrictions?
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meltzen
Nov. 13, 2012 at 8:54aman athiest believe their is no God…so there has to be faith to believe that with all around us is creation, or a humanist believes they are like god and can do what they wish….that takes faith,
restrictions….when was the last time, it was not allowed to teach evolution because it was theory or can not speak about one belief in school or in public without being harassed or critizied. Try teaching creation in school and letting your beliefs known in the public?
every where you look you see creation,….but have yet to see a species evolve into another species…
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4truth2all
Nov. 13, 2012 at 10:57amYo Justangry:
Neither can you disprove … as has been said to you previously.
In fact, I do believe (as scripture says) that God has indeed left us proof of His existence .. some just refuse to acknowledge or accept it, instead willingly accepting a lie that IS UNPROVEN ..! Good day
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:24pmI’m quite willing to look at your “proof of his existence, indeed left”. Remember that actual truth has no agenda.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:25pm@ANGRY “Except there’s no leap of faith believing in something that cannot be proven.”
Which is what Atheists do.
@DEVON
How about you? Can you prove God does not exist?
I can prove that He does. Look around you.
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:40pmBerean, you cannot turn this around. Asking someone to prove a negative doesn’t provide evidence for your god claim. I’m not sure how this keeps being overlooked by some people.
The “look around” is exactly what science is about. . . . . . . and no “god” was found.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 3:57pmWell, I just did turn it around on you. Your claim that God does not exist is no less a negative to prove.
“The “look around” is exactly what science is about. . . . . . . and no “god” was found.”
Again, you can’t prove a negative. I suppose you want us to believe in your religion, that all this came about because of fairies. Who is delusional now?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:02pmI don’t believe in faeries. And it is on YOU [the one making the claim] to prove it. That’s how it works.
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theotherberean
Nov. 13, 2012 at 4:49pmWell, if you don’t believe in fairies, how did all this get here? Magic?
And what “evidence” do you need, want, or expect, beyond your 5 senses? You can see, touch, taste, smell and feel the Bible. What “evidence” could you possibly need, or I possibly provide you beyond that?
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DeavonReye
Nov. 13, 2012 at 5:21pmPlease consolidate these various chains to the bottom of this page.
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chucksue351
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:24amsalvation without a Savior, Yeshua (jesus) is the very image of Father YVHV (god lord jehovah) because he is the Word of YVHV
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The_Postal
Nov. 13, 2012 at 7:20amIt’s like wiping before you poop. Kind of pointless. As an OK resident, I wish them the best. Though I do wonder how they’ll handle tithing.
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jimnjoy
Nov. 13, 2012 at 2:01pmForget about tithing…I wonder how they’ll handle HELL.
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