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Christians Find ‘Creative’ Loophole in Atheist-Inspired Santa Monica Nativity Ban & Secure Permit for ‘Live’ Display

Dec. 3, 2012 9:47am Billy Hallowell

For the past year, atheists and Christians have been battling over the presence of nativity displays in public parks in Santa Monica, California. In an effort to temper the bickering, the city inevitably implemented a ban on all religious speech in local parks, thus ending a nearly-60-year tradition of having a display in Palisades Park. Just when all hope for Christians who wished to see the nativity tradition continued was lost, local believers found a loophole — one that will allow them to, once again, host a nativity.

According to a press release, Santa Monica’s atheist-inspired ban on nativity displays only applies to those which are “unattended.” This essentially means that displays which are not “live” and involve figurines may not be utilized, however there is no provision or ban on religious displays that are “attended” (displays that involve human beings).

Santa Monica Christians Find Loophole, Plan Live Nativity | Palisades Park

FILE – In this Dec. 13, 2011 file photo, a woman walks past a sign displaying an Atheist message along Ocean Avenue at Palisades Park in Santa Monica, Calif. A Los Angeles federal judge on Thursday, Nov. 29, 2012 dismissed a Christian group’s lawsuit to force suburban Santa Monica to reopen spaces in Palisades Park to private displays, including Christmas Nativity scenes. Credit: AP

Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition posted a press release in which he announced that a faith coalition in Santa Monica applied for a live nativity display — a request that was granted by the city. The news release calls the development in a case that seemed all but hopeless for local believers “a major victory for religious freedom, the First Amendment and the public display of nativity scenes.”

While the traditional display that has been present for nearly six decades will not be erected in Palisades Park, on Dec. 8, between 1:00 p.m. and 4:00 p.m., a live nativity will unfold. Californians are also being encouraged to bring the nativity scenes that they would display in their homes with them to the event, which is being called, “The Birth of Christ. The Birth of Freedom. The Santa Monica Nativity.”

Mahoney, who directs the Christian Defense Coalition, a group that advocates for the presence of nativities on public property, made known his delight with the loophole and the ability to setup shop in Palisades Park.

FILE – In this Dec. 13, 2011 file photo, a man walks past two of the traditional Nativity scenes along Ocean Avenue at Palisades Park in Santa Monica, Calif. Avowed atheist Damon Vix last year won two-thirds of the booths in the annual, city-sponsored lottery to divvy up spaces in the live-sized Nativity display. Credit: AP

“We are so thankful that a Nativity Display will be seen in Palisades Park for a 60th Consecutive year,” he said in the release. “It is critical that the faith community did not allow the City of Santa Monica and the federal court to crush the First Amendment and religious freedom by banning a nativity display in Palisades Park.”

The faith leader encouraged Christians across America to “speak out with passion and courage” and to stand up for their free speech rights.

“By finding a way to creatively address this injustice, the powerful message of Christmas and religious freedom will continue to be heard and [seen] in Palisades Park,” he continued.

–

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Comments (151)

toto
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:43am
What is it with some people that they just want to destroy everything good about America? The activist atheist crowd are miserable sad human beings, feel incredibly sorry for any that have children.

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- repairsea
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:01pm
  Demonic spirit that wants to attack the one true God. Pray for them.
  
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Platonician
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:33am
Christian traditions persecuted, everything subjected to regulation, etc. America has become Nazi Germany.

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COFemale
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:14am
First of all would a true Christian really have a name like SpankDAMonkey? – NO. Spank is no more Christian than Rahm Emanuel is Jewish. Both are FAKE. Spank is a “plant” just like you Best. Neither one of you use the good sense God gave you.

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Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:14am
Let me get this straight, rather than a month of multiple displays of static religious devotion erected by believers on public land, there will only be one 3 hour period of believers putting their religiosity on display… Congratulations on your cunning victory over the forces of Atheism.

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- Mustanger
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:50am
  I would think that they would do it in shifts all through Christmas in all weather. That would be an honor to do. If it too much burden to celebrate Christ, remember what he did for you.
  
  Report this comment
- GiveUsJustice
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:58am
  You’ve got a point. Looks like the Christians there will need to just get more people involved and then it can last longer. If I lived there, it would be no problems to come out for a couple hours each week. Surely they have enough people to fill the week for a month. Easy solution. Thanks for the comment.
  
  Report this comment
- Virginia Rebel
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:25pm
  Very likely, Ms. Lesby, that more people will attend and see the three hour event than would have seen the month-long display. Think Chick-Fil-A when people turn out in droves and waited cheerfully in line for hours just to show the liberals that we won’t be pushed around.
  
  Report this comment
- integrityfunding
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 2:30pm
  You obviously have never read the bible. If you had, you would know it states that the very rocks will cry out if there isn’t a witness for Jesus.
  
  But then again, you must think all of us born again believers are nothing but hate filled people trying to cram our “religion” down your throats. How sad you haven’t met those of us who try to live the life of Jesus daily. We aren’t perfect, just striving to be better.
  
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- Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 2:31pm
  @ Virginia Rebel:
  Have fun! Remember to tide up the public space when you leave.
  
  And Merry Christmas!
  
  Report this comment
- Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:29pm
  @ Integrity Funding:
  
  The very rocks will cry if there isn’t a proselytizing Christian around? You’re right. I never read that in the Bible. Is that what caused Noah’s flood? All the rocks weeping for the 8 millennia from the earliest recorded human history to the date of Jesus’s birth? After all, that is a period in which there were no Christian apologists witnessing to humanity anywhere.
  
  I lived as a fundamentalist Baptist for two years, you dolt. I’m intimately familiar with fervent believers in Christ. But then, my history with organized religion is not the only thing you’re utterly ignorant of, is it?
  
  Report this comment
- undrprsr
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 8:25am
  Religiosity? You must be a brain dead(shot by hollow points) lesbian!
  
  Report this comment
- piper22
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 2:00pm
  @ Lesbian Hollow Head:
  
  Luke 19:39-41
  New International Version (NIV)
  
  39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
  40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
  41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it
  
  Report this comment
- Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 2:25pm
  @ UNDERPRSR:
  Awe… Am I using words that are too big for your little mind to comprehend?
  
  Report this comment
- jonhamilt
  Posted on December 6, 2012 at 12:23pm
  @everybody:
  
  This entire conversation is absolutely contrary to the Christmas spirit, and to boot it’s completely pointless. Hope each of you are proud of the way you’re representing your respective beliefs.
  
  Report this comment
termyt
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:11am
How is it we can understand that comments posted on sites like this one and a million others are not a reflection of the site’s official opinion, but we can’t understand comments said on public property are not the state’s official opinion?

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- bonesiii
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:27am
  Oh, they understand it — they know they’re trampling on our Constitutional rights, and they enjoy doing so, as do oppressors throughout history. Evil enjoys doing evil (though in the end it is futile).
  
  It’s taxpayer funded land, so Constitutionally protected “free expression” may not be banned there. However, the atheists know that not all judges are loyal to their vows and there are plenty of others too who are willing to break the law by creating these illegal bans, and other dirty tricks like simply outfunding local governments in lawsuits.
  
  What I’d recommend is people start ignoring these atheists and put the displays up anyways, with a citation of the Constitutional authority that allows it and a reminder that it is public land, not the atheists’ private land. The atheists can ban and display whatever they want on their own land, but not on public land. It’s such a shame that even though we have the law of the land, and our rights, they create a pseudo-law of “don’t upset the Offended types” that works in practice anyways. At some point, Americans are going to have to decide that the law is the law, even if some are out there breaking it.
  
  Report this comment
- Oldmantex
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:08pm
  Exactly!! Good point!!
  
  What really kills me is how these same people will support government funded abortions. You atheist dont want a TRUE separation of church and state, because if you did, you would have to stop using Christians money to support your unchristian policies.
  
  Imagine all the tax dollars they could no longer use to teach about abortion, kids with two daddys and mommys, how to properly put on a condom, evolution in many cases. You would not have all that Christian money to pay for the support of unwed mothers who continue to get knocked up.
  
  Im all for separation of church and state, come on lets do it, you cant use my Christian tax dollars for anything that is against my faith, and we wont use non-christians money to put up nativity scenes.
  
  I can deal with that arrangement, can you??
  
  Report this comment
- wzanesdad
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 1:23pm
  bones,
  great recomendation, there is way more people wiling to defend our constitutonal rights than there are those that want to tear it down. If the cities are forced with a lawsuit from both sides, they will have to take a stand one way or the other. Let’s see who really wants to win thier next election.
  
  Report this comment
Yuuperguy
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:58am
I’ve been reading questions like “Why do atheists care about something they don’t believe in.” I just wanted to say, most of us don’t, I believe in freedom of speech. If someone gets the license and wants to put up a nativity scene, or a mini mosque, or an atheist sign explaining their beliefs (or lack of) I have no problem with it. Most of us don’t. There are however fringe groups in atheists circles just as in Christian circles, (Westborough Baptists a case in point) who are extremist in their views. Most atheists I know still celebrate Christmas (or the winter solstice, or Saturnalia, or Kwanza, or the myriad other holidays that seem to fall around this time of year.) I put up a tree (after all, what does that have to do with Christ?) every year. I love Christmas, I love the way people seem to treat each other better around that time of year. If it’s because they believe in something I don’t, who cares?

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- mama1
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:15am
  FYI: The Christmas Tree represents the trinity. God the father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The trunk of the tree represents the cross.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:26am
  “The Christmas Tree represents the trinity.”
  
  It obviously doesn’t to Yuuperguy, or to any of the other cultures and people who use a tree (including those who did so prior to the creation of Christmas). As a Christian, I can honestly say I have never, up until now, heard your explanation for the Christmas tree. To my family, it’s just for fun and decorating, and a good place to put presents. The little Nativity scene we have, and Christmas church service, are where we connect the Christ and Christmas.
  
  Report this comment
- repairsea
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:28am
  The atheist attack because we believe in the one true God. The demonic spirit that possesses the atheist cannot stand our love of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
  Notice how they do not attack false religions. They are not stopping the displays of false deities and beliefs.
  This should strengthen your faith in God more and give praises to our Lord. Importantly, pray for the atheist.
  
  Report this comment
- briten821
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:30am
  MAMMA1- Huh?????? The Christmas tree represents the Trinity? Are you serious? What, because it is made up of wood, needles and… I dunno… sap? Give me a break. The tree was “borrowed” from pagan festivals just like most of the other imagery or Christian holidays. Most Christians are fine with that, and that’s a personal choice that everyone is entitled to. But trying to re-write history is a little much.
  
  Report this comment
- DamoclesAurelius
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:36am
  Actually Mama1, the pine tree was a pagan symbol that was incorporated into Christian worship roughly around the time the Roman Empire was (forcibly) converted to Christianity. I don’t mean to disparage Christmas, or imply that Christians are secretly engaging in pagan rituals; I celebrate Christmas as a Christian, just like the rest of the Christian world. However, we shouldn’t try to and create a Christian symbol for every little Christmas detail; much of what constitutes Christmas tradition (trees, holly, ornaments, elves who make toys and leave them as gifts, even the celebration in winter, which would have been impossible if the shepherds really were tending their flocks when the angles proclaimed the good news -the Israeli winters are far too harsh) comes from paganism, and was incorporated into the Christian religion so that pagans would convert more readily. We can still celebrate Christmas, and we can still celebrate it as the birth of the Savior (since that is what the Christians brought to the celebration). Just because we took from the pagans a lot of their ideas and symbolism, doesn’t mean Christmas is pagan. But let’s not pretend that Christmas represent anything other than a celebration of the Savior. There is no deeply religious significance beyond that: just Christians celebrating the birth of their Redeemer.
  
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- Iron_Wyll
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:49am
  Mama1: Plants that remainded green through out the year always had special meaning for people across history. All-year greens were used by the Egyptians to celebrate Ra, the sun god. Ancient tribes used the greenry to remind themselves that winter would end and the spring would return. The ancient Romans celebrated Saturnaria using evergreens. Germany is credited with using the tannenbaum in the manner we do today. The tradition started in the 16th century. There is nothing “sacred” about the tree; it is cultural.
  
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- mikefromaltoona
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:04pm
  @YUUPERGUY:
  
  You sound like a reasonable person. I am a panentheist. I too celebrate Christmas although I’m not of the Christian faith. I do not disrespect Christians or Christianity.
  
  I think that on any given day if public space is going to be allowed to be used for a religious display by one faith then those of differing or no faith should also be allowed to use it on the same day. That way there can be no suspicion that the government involved is favoring one religion over another or favoring religion over atheism or agnosticism.
  
  If the space cannot accommodate all that wish to use it during a given time, than a lottery should be used to determine which group or groups will be allowed to use it. Another solution would simply be to not allow the use of public space for religious displays. (Or anti-religious displays for that matter).
  
  Now I have never been harmed by a Religious Christmas display in the public square. In fact I enjoy them. When I think of Christmas, nativity displays are one of the pleasant things that come to my mind. But it makes me just the tiniest bit uncomfortable to think that the exclusive use of public property during the Christmas season is reserved to those of the Christian faith.
  
  If in the next few days I have business at my local municipal building and in the park across the street there’s a nativity scene, I won’t make a scene, yelling about separation of church and state. In fact there’s a good chance, if I have the
  
  Report this comment
- mikefromaltoona
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:08pm
  time I’ll take a walk over to the park and bask in the warm feelings I have thinking about what that display represents. But in the back of my mind will be that little worry, gnawing away at my happy thoughts.
  
  Report this comment
- Dr Vel
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:55pm
  Yuuperguy you have a point. Very well said. I am a firm believer in the Lord and salvation as well a firm believer in the Constitution. One has to wonder why the judges side with the fringe while going against the majority. In virtually everything. The tree has nothing to do with Christianity it comes from a pagan festival in the area of Germany either pre or early dark ages. Mama1 you could not be more wrong. The meaning of the tree in the Word comes from ‘body’ in Hebrew or ets, as well as God referring to Himself as an evergreen to symbolize eternal life since it remains alive and green. God uses nature a great deal for descriptive aids in His Word. What the tree was to a pagan people does not translate to what it means to others. To me the tree is a happy symbol of a happy time in our lives and a great tradition which should be left alone. Nothing is wrong with having a reminder of the better times in our lives, we do not worship the tree. If one did then it becomes an error. I ignore bible thumpers just as I ignore atheists. Both groups serve to drive people away from God. Both groups work to take away traditions which once long ago made life a little warmer and cheery. I find it sad I have to go back to childhood memories decades ago to find a time our very foundation and way of life was not under never ending assault. Seems the only comfort left is knowing the family I grew up with is not here to witness what has become of a once great nation.
  
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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 1:13pm
  Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.”
  
  Man its sure is fun to decorate the pagan, lighted tree! I don’t want athiests or strict orthodox fundamentalists trying to eliminate the tree, because it ‘offends’ them…
  
  Report this comment
- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 1:18pm
  “If the space cannot accommodate all that wish to use it during a given time, than a lottery should be used to determine which group or groups will be allowed to use it. Another solution would simply be to not allow the use of public space for religious displays. (Or anti-religious displays for that matter).”
  
  They tried that already, multiple members from the FFRF applied for the spots, preventing others from getting any spots. They took something like 90% of the spots, and then ‘didn’t use them’ (or just put up signs or such). But kept others from using them.
  
  Report this comment
- mama1
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 4:28pm
  In the 17th Century an English missionary by the name of Winfrid was the first person to use the evergreen tree as a symbol for God. Winfrid, who later became Saint Boniface, used the tree as an object lesson that the triangle shape represented the trinity. Yes I know it has been used in other cultures for other things. I was simply responding to Yuuper’s statement that it doesn’t have anything to do with Christ. Because as a Christian it does have meaning.
  
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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 4:47pm
  It also was a symbol of Easter in germany, a decorated ‘paradise tree’. Before it was brought to the US. I think that was back in the 1700s. Maybe we should start up the practice of decorating trees for easter too!
  
  Report this comment
- Git-R-Done
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 6:41pm
  Locked – Why are the crazy atheists so hell bent on taking down a Christmas tree if it isn’t even Christian to begin with? You’d think they’d be happy to see a Christmas tree on display.
  
  Report this comment
- jrc99
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 6:18am
  @MAMA1
  
  Thank you for that bit of history. I will now conduct further study. Quick question though did St. Boniface use it specifically to celebrate Christmas or did he use use the evergreen as a general representation of the Trinity?
  
  Well done! :-)
  
  Report this comment
- If There is No God
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 9:29am
  God cares. You may not care about him, but he cares about you, whether you believe in him or not. A life without God, is a life without hope. Thats what Christianity is all about….Hope…..hope and faith in a life after this one, where there is no more pain, suffering. The human mind in incapable of understanding the concept of eternity. It is very hard to explain hope and faith to those who don’t have it.
  
  Report this comment
truemedia
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:52am
WTF the display by the Atheists is a religious expression of non belief. Its no difference from a religious of faith. Why do they get to expression their religious view and Christian can’t or has to alter the way they have expressed their display! This is bias

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- theotherberean
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 4:51pm
  Liberals believe that rules are only for stupid people. But not them.
  
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SMOOSE
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:47am
Glad to hear they were able to find a creative solution.

Why are these Nativity scenes not labeled art or freedom of speech. In an art display it seems anything goes. Atheists love art displays!

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- LadyLibertykicksASS
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 2:28pm
  Only if the displays involve feces or urine…….
  
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SpankDaMonkey
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:43am
.
Moderation, Christians have been killing Evil from the beginning………..

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Dr Vel
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:42am
ModerationIsBest “Ah there’s that Christian “love” I hear so much about these days.”

Then stop listening to people like you. There can be no ‘love’ in failing to stand up for what is right. Just as real ‘love’ can never exist in a soul who thinks like you.

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Alaredneck
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:39am
Love it. Thank you for being persistent in your quest. Merry Christmas to all.

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geminicontender
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:38am
“Atheism” is a religion and those who believe are trying to get government to make atheist the primary religion of America over all others. Stand up and fight!!!!! Rather ironic I would say.

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anita3910
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:38am
Wonderful! I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, lots of Nativity Scenes here, but we also have live Nativities, real people standing in costume, a baby doll for the baby Jesus.

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anita3910
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:36am
Wonderful! Where there is a will, there is a way. I live on the Mississippi gulf Coast, lots of Nativity scenes here, but we also have live Nativity Scenes at a lot of churches. It is warm enough in California to do that. Real people!

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ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:30am
Ah there’s that Christian “love” I hear so much about these days.

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Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:27am
Excellent, God opened another door in the face of the Atheists. Expect another lawsuit to come down hard on the local government by the Atheist forces of darkness.

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- Locked
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:36am
  To be fair, this “other door” is just what the atheists have been doing. They set up an “information booth” during weekends, so as to still have a live display.
  
  Report this comment
- OldSurfRat
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:36am
  Snow
  
  You are right God takes the darkest situations and turns it around. Wish I lived there so I could go see and support the live nativity display.
  
  Report this comment
givemeavent
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:25am
Why would an athiest be worried about something they dont even claim exists?

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- kickagrandma
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:39am
  There you go! Nice comment.
  
  Report this comment
- Sil in CNY
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:40am
  Because that’s not what they really care about…….
  
  Report this comment
- BOGOTSTOGO
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:48am
  Excellent comment! I dont have enough faith to be an atheist either
  
  Report this comment
- ltb
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:58am
  It’s not that they don’t believe, it’s that they hate the truth and love evil. Only a complete idiot would believe there is no God and God doesn’t make idiots, so people choose to believe there is no God and in the process they become idiots.
  
  —–
  
  “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.” (Romans 1:18-19)
  
  “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools…” (Romans 1:21-22)
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:43pm
  LTB, you are absolutely wrong. I am not a “non-theist” because I “hate good” and “love evil”. You are comletely misinformed about many people. I don’t believe because I see no evidence that is credible and compelling. You can post verses from Romans all you want, but a man’s words [from the 1st Century CE] are meaningless to me. There is nothing from any “god” that is “plainly visble”. What IS visible in nature shows a very naturalistic mechanism. I don’t hold my world view out of “rebellion”. . . and I “searched for god” for more than 20 years. All I’m asking is that you stop misrepresenting people because you have a verse that makes a non-credible claim.
  
  Report this comment
- cathouseumbrella
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 2:35pm
  I’m pretty sure atheists believe nativity displays exist.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 3:04pm
  @DEVON are you still whining about how you searched for God for 20 years but just couldn’t seem to find Him? For crying out loud. Like I told you before, not everyone is saved, so stop complaining and take your medicine. It’s your choice to believe or not but this is not Burger King. You don’t get it the way you want it. You either repent or you are toast. Those are the rules. Deal with it. I mean, thanks for stepping up and fulfilling prophesy for those of us who are saved, but good grief, you’ve made your choice. Will you please suck it up now and stop whining? Sheesh!
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 3:26pm
  Berean, once again, you attack me for being honest. Why do you feel that using words like “whining” makes your point more valid. I was giving my story. Prove me wrong. Show me how I “failed to see your god”. But you can’t. You claim that YOUR beliefs are “the rules”. Prove it! They are words in a book. That’s it.
  
  Show me how I “made a choice” when there WAS no “choice” other than words other people TOLD me “was true”.
  
  What do you mean by “not everyone is saved”? Are you a 5 point Calvinist?
  
  Please take note that I’m not personally attacking you. I would appreciate it if you would return in kind.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 4:08pm
  @DEVON
  
  You’re always whining. Either how you spent 20 years looking for God or that I’m attacking you when I point that out. I’m tired of hearing your sob story. Give it a rest. Nobody really cares what you think, much less what you believe about God. And you confuse ignorance for honesty.
  
  You and I and everyone else has the same info with which to arrive at a conclusion about whether or not to believe. You’ve made your choice and I’ve made mine. Do you hear me whining? No, but you won’t stop!
  
  I’m a “one point” Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ alone.
  
  I say not everyone is saved because that’s what the Bible teaches. You have chosen to be one of the non believers, and the Bible says you will spend your eternity in the lake of fire. So please stop whining, and accusing me of attacking you. You’ve made your own bed, now lie in it. But please, stop whining. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 4:39pm
  Okay, Berean. If you don’t like my posts, then don’t respond to them.
  
  To everyone else, this is what you get when you have an arrogant narcissist, who INSISTS that he is right. And believes it without proof, other than HE believes it [circular]. We all have the same choice? Hardly. Each person may have information at hand, but SOME information is bogus. Some people may believe it, but they are unaware of other evidences [new evidences] that cast a huge shadow on what was once known. So no, . . . we all DON’T have the same info. That is a fallacy.
  
  Who is believed here? I don’t care. History will show who is right. At least I don’t threaten others with a ficticious place [lake of fire] that can’t be shown to exists outside the minds of scared people attenpting to satisfy their fear of death.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 4:49pm
  @DEVON
  
  It isn’t your posts that bother me it’s your incessant whining. You want everyone to feel sorry for you because you refuse to believe. Well, guess what?
  
  Then after accusing me of attacking you, you attack my person. You must be a liberal. Liberals think rules are for stupid people. But not them.
  
  And yes we do have all the same info, you just choose not to believe it.
  
  And I didn’t threaten you with the lake of fire, God did that.
  
  Always the victim. Typical liberal taker. You poor baby.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 5:08pm
  Okay, Berean. See my posts as “whining”. That is your call. As I said, I don’t care what people think of me or what I say. I say it because it is my viewpoint and I am granted it under the first ammendment.
  
  And yes, I attack who attacks me. You call me a whiner, I call you what YOU are. I just happen to have more evidence on my side than you.
  
  Once again, . . . no. . . we DON’T have the same information. I have seen evidence that you are unware of, it would seem. Regardless, what is the “information I should know considering there being a god”? A book of claims constructed out of various ancient texts, voted on as to their “holiness” by men. A few archeological finds that correspond with a few biblical stories. Oh, and the word of believers that it is true.
  
  So we have that information on one side, . . . and on the other side, we have books and MANY papers from scientists and fields of study showing this world as absolutely natural with NO supernatural influences. With the given information at hand, I see no reason to believe in a god when nothing even remotely like a god has been demonstrated. Just the words of people. If you want to call that “whining”, that’s YOUR issue, not mine. What I call it is ‘substantial truth’ against ‘unsubstantial claims’.
  
  And I’ll say it again, if you don’t like my posts, just go on by.
  
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- Git-R-Done
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 6:44pm
  Devon – A Christmas tree isn’t even Christian yet it’s the atheists who are the ones who are screaming for it to be taken down. That doesn’t even make any sense.
  
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- binge_thinker
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 9:17pm
  As a renowned and ardent evolutionist and atheist once admitted…
  
  We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
  
  So much for unbiased and objective demonstration of empirical evidence.
  
  I think Deavon’s high horse has no legs, as usual.
  
  Poor scared guy.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 8:41am
  Hey guys. First, I have absolutely no problems with any christmas decoration. They bring joy to many people, and there is nothing wrong with that.
  
  Second, I am not an “absolute-ist”. Currently, all I can see [from the inputs given] is the material and natural. That is just an honest position I have,. . . and the only one I CAN hold, at this time. Having said that, I am not opposed to having a supernatural experience, and even would like to have one. I may never experience it, but I could never discount it, because I am open to the possibilities.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 10:53am
  @DEVON
  
  You’re a whiner because you post incessantly with the same ungrounded complaints. That’s not an attack, that’s being honest. If you can attack the Bible and call that being honest, then I should be able to be honest without that being an attack.
  
  You want everyone to share your doubt, but the problem is, those of us who believe the facts are completely satisfied with the evidence. And you’re just blowing hot air when you say you have some “special” evidence. Those same sciences that you claim prove it wrong, actually prove it right. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
  
  Can you point to even one scientific book or paper that “proves” empirically (the scientific method) that God does not exist, as you claim?
  
  You said “nothing remotely like God has been demonstrated.” I disagree, the Bible disagrees and zillions of Christians disagree. You are in denial because of sin. Besides, what would it take, and how would you know it’s God anyway, when the Bible says even the elect will be deceived by false Christs, if possible?
  
  It’s absurd to believe science has the answers when it presents absolutely no empirical evidence, while at the same time refusing to believe the testimonies of literally thousands of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ Birth, death and resurrection. But you don’t have to believe it if you choose not to. The Bible says many will go to the lake of fire.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 11:50am
  Berean, don’t put words in my mouth. It is not my position that “a god does NOT exist”. I see no evidence. There is a difference. It cannot be proven one way or the other.
  
  Please show where I am “in denial” of the evidence! If I am wrong, I will change my world view. Don’t ask me “what it would take”. . . . just show me what convinced you and I’ll consider it.
  
  And, BTW, how do you know what “my sin” is, and if that creates my “denial”? That is a strawman fallacy.
  
  Anecdotal stories are not proof. You cannot test the veracity of ancient stories.
  
  So, once again, show me how I am “whining” when you offer nothing of substance. What YOU see as “whining” is actually my own personal investigation and understanding. I don’t care if YOU or anyone else believes me. Not one bit! BUT, . . . don’t expect me to “just believe you” when you’re not giving me anything concrete. Give me something compelling, and then we can talk.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 1:41pm
  @DEVON
  
  Can you present a valid challenge the historicity of the Bible?
  
  If not, then the Bible is true.
  
  If so, then logically God must exist.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 3:38pm
  All other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.–Lev.11:23
  
  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. –Gen. 1:30
  
  “There were giants in the earth in those days.” Gen. 6:4
  
  God opens the “windows of heaven.” He does this every time it rains.
  
  It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks. Exodus 16:35 There hasn’t been any discovery of a culture in that area for a 40 year period.
  
  Bats are birds to the biblical God. Leviticus
  
  Joshua says that those who try to rebuild Jericho will be accursed by God, and will have to sacrifice both their oldest and their youngest sons in its construction. But Jericho still exists today, and is often considered to be the world’s oldest, continuously occupied city. Joshua 6:26
  
  Joshua 8:29 says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity.
  
  “Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not.” Showing the mindset that the earth is fixed and the sun travels about it. Job 9:7
  
  I could go on. There may be literal places mentioned in the bible, sure, but that doesn’t make it all [therefore] true.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on December 4, 2012 at 5:44pm
  This is not empirical evidence. These are really stupid examples of misinterpretation by unlearned people in denial, such as yourself. All of these have been answered over and over again. Do a simple search. You are in denial of the truth because you don’t want to believe it, and a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
  
  Can you read Hebrew and Greek? That’s your problem. For example, in Lev 11:20 the word rendered creeping things may be regarded as coextensive with our word vermin. It is derived from a verb which signifies not only to creep, but to teem, or bring forth abundantly Genesis 1:21; Genesis 8:17; Exodus 8:3; Psalm 105:30. Relying on other unlearned people to investigate these alleged discrepancies for you only leads to confusion and misunderstanding, such as this.
  
  There is enough that has been proven to be true and literally nothing that has been proven not to be true, that it’s reasonable to expect that it is all true and until you can prove that it isn’t. What you have presented is not “empirical” evidence.
  
  You’re just in denial of the fact that God doesn’t fit into the box you’ve built for Him.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 5, 2012 at 9:04am
  List links to that which has “been answered over and over again” and I’ll give them a look through.
  
  Do you believe there were giants? Do you believe in a global flood ~4,400 years ago? A verse that says, “that flies” and “all fours” is quite telling. That a god would reference a creature like a “fire breathing dragon” should tell you something, shouldn’t it? Or the same god giving misinformation about “lightning reporting to him as to where it should strike”, or “a warehouse where hail balls are kept for days of battle”. These things were used as factual arguments against Job. And they were completely erroneous, casting doubt on the MAIN character of the biblical texts.
  
  Also, these “unlearned people” you speak of . . . . many of them are professors, university level. Care to explain how those who spend their life looking at this topic can be so “misinformed”? Because people DO have evidence against biblical history should be telling. People such as Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Richard Elliot Friedman, Dr. Herbert F. Farmer, Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University, Dr. Arthur Jeffrey, Professor of Semitic Languages at Columbia, [and many others]. If biblical history was that sound, no one would be able to deny it. Biblical studies professors, archaeologists, anthropologists, . . . discovering a different truth than what had always been believed. Every mainline Biblical Studies department in the world, in fact.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 5, 2012 at 9:20am
  So, what should I take from this? Should I believe in a supernatural being [who never lets itself be known, insisting upon someone's "faith" and the word of ancient and modern men], or the SEA of scholars who have actually done an amazing amount of research and discovery to uncover the ACTUAL history of that time? I think it may be necessary for you [as well] to do more research, unless you care to show how such as these are wrong.
  
  So until you are able to prove THEM wrong, . . . you cannot say that I am “in denial”. Blindly accepting an unseen, unknowable, unheard supernatural being would be where I would be in denial.
  
  You have no original manuscripts. No way of knowing who wrote any of the texts. Some of it quite suspect as to its place in the historical timeframe, and even whether or not some of the major characters actually existed.
  
  These aren’t MY arguments. They are the arguments from acedemia. We learn from those who have made it their life path to study a specific field, and when they coroborate with others, then it would seem your argument isn’t with me, but with them.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 5, 2012 at 10:05am
  Modern archaeology cast extreme doubt on one of the most important stories of the Old Testament, . . . the exodus. Few references to semites being in Egypt have been recovered. Let’s say it DID happen as the bible claims, with ~600,000 men [with the included women and children] fleeing Egypt, then taking the Sinai route [since the direct route would have had them running into Egyptian armies along the Mediteranean]. The area of their travels have been examined using modern techniques and NO group as large as depicted in the bible have been found, particularly in the area where they spent most of their time [refusing to go into the 'promised land']. No remains from the 13th century bce were found. We’re talking the probability of nearly 2 million people.
  
  On top of that, nothing of that shows up in Egyptians record. 2 million people leaving a population of around 3 million would have left a HUGE hole and would have resulted immediately in a downsizing, economically, that would have disrupted the empire irrevocably. Nothing of that magnitude is evidenced as taking place in the 13th century bce.
  
  Geographical clues can determine when such stories were written. Geography of the writer. Scholars agree that cities mentioned [when they were actually constructed] place the writings closer to 600 bce.
  
  There is all kinds of information like this out there. Do what you will, though. Denial? Not me.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on December 5, 2012 at 2:51pm
  No, I’m not wasting my time chasing down rabbit trails for you. Do a search. Anything I can find, you can find too, and I’ve already satisfied my own curiosity demands. Do your own homework and you’ll figure it out too. But I don’t think you’re really interested. You enjoy whining too much.
  
  Your next argument just shows your ignorance.
  
  As for your “scholars,” point me to anything they have done that demonstrates “empirically” that they are right and the Bible is “wrong.” Casting doubt and proving wrong are two very different things. Again, there are literally no unexplainable difficulties with the Bible. Do a search for the answers rather than just the difficulties and stop wasting my time.
  
  You say God doesn’t allow Himself to be known but that’s baloney too. You have Jesus, the Bible, all you have to do is look around and ask yourself how all this came to be. Magic? Fairies? If not, then show me your empirical evidence of how life came to be, using scientific methods. Otherwise magic and fairies are all you have while I have a Divine Creator.
  
  We don’t need the originals because there is no reason to believe we don’t have copies that were made and verified by eyewitnesses to the originals.
  
  I don’t deny that there are difficulties in the Bible. But none that cannot be reasonably and rationally explained. You’re just in denial because you like whining.
  
  And I sure wish you would grow up.
  
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MADDRICK99
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:23am
I am going to petition the State of California to change all the names of cities with a religious references. Los Angeles will be the first to have to change their name to a non religious name. Sacramento will be the next. I believe that if you are atheist and live in any city with a religious name you should move, because it may offend you. Please read with thick sarcasm

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- kickagrandma
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:41am
  LOVE IT! Actually, I think all atheists, non-believers and muslimes should move IMMEDIATELY to Europe. Live with other nonbelievers and leave us alone.
  
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- MarineBrat
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 11:39am
  what about states with indian names? Illinois, dakota, Wisconsin, Missouri, Delware, Maine, Ohio???
  
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- rosegrower
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 12:18pm
  In keeping with your point, I also believe that no government employee should be entitled to have Christmas or Good Friday off as holidays – that’s the state endorsing a religion, isn’t it? Take two paid holidays away from public employees and just see how quickly the tide turns with regard to supporting religious liberty!
  
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123456beatriz
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:23am
Guys I am almost SURE that CAIR is behind Atheist groups to suit Christians in public schools and public spaces. If I could have money I will suit the atheists for our right of Freedom of worship and religion and CAIR for their hate against the western culture so. FIGHT BACK all together!.

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barber2
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:16am
People need to return to the “old, ” traditional values ( sorry Mr. Change Obama ) : ” Treat others as you would want them to treat you ” would certainly seem a page from the past worth revisiting. ( it’s the angry , the different, the revengeful, the hateful who just don’t understand this )

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biohazard23
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:08am
The militant atheists will still wet themselves over this. Pathetic, really. If you don’t like the Nativity, find another park to go to during the month of December. That suggestion, of course, will get their collective knickers in a twist, too, but at this point I don’t really care. Suck it up and deal with it.

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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:24am
  Actually chances are they never and don’t visit the park. They are doing this just get attention. Like that one guy who targets businesses to sue them if he learns he can’t get into them do to his disabilities. Yet he was never a customer and locals with disabilities said they never had any problems. Yet he forces them out of business.
  
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- biohazard23
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:45am
  You’re right. They are whiny attention wh*res looking to ruin things for everybody else. They really need to get another hobby, like fire walking, diving with sharks (sans the cage), or snake handling.
  
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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 1:14pm
  Ahh, my last post… Grammar, yikes. But at least my point made it through. So hard to type out things on a phone!
  
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Perspective
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:01am
I’m getting [pretty sick of having atheism shoved in my face constantly. I challenge ANYONE to show me in the US Constitution where it says anything You can’t because it’s not in there. The 1st amendment reads as follows- “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” Atheists are very insecure in their beliefs and feel the need to try and force people to believe as they do.Piss off atheists,you’ll learn of your errors soon enough.

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- Perspective
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:06am
  oops,left out “seperation of church and state”
  
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- Miguelito
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:07am
  Thank you Jesus!!! It’s all about Good and evil! Pray for Good!
  
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redfish52
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 9:53am
This is to funny….I see an Atheist protest in the works. I live in South Carolina but If I did live in “Santa” Monica I would gladly take a shift or two…

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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on December 3, 2012 at 10:16am
  Ahh the irony. Protesting in an attempt to silence another’s free speech.
  
  Sounds awfully like the tactics of the Westboro Baptists protesting and tryin to end speech at funerals.
  
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Locked
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 9:53am
How is this a loophole? The town said that live displays could be held… misleading title is misleading.

I believe an atheist had a live “information booth” every weekend last year as well. The Nativity group is just taking his idea… but only doing it for one day, as opposed to each weekend.

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SacredHonor1776
Posted on December 3, 2012 at 9:52am
I’ve been saying they need to do a live nativity. Then let the Marxist Athiests try to have them arrested..

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