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Faith

Here’s the Story of How I Tussled Over Faith & the Boy Scouts on HuffPost Live

Dec. 7, 2012 8:38am Billy Hallowell

HuffPost Live facilitated a fascinating discussion last night surrounding the potential addition of an atheist oath for the Scout Association and the Guide Association, two traditional children’s groups in the United Kingdom. I appeared in an on-air discussion with Dan Barker, the co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, an atheist activist non-profit, and Jaweed Kaleem, a religion reporter from The Huffington Post.

Naturally, the discussion was spirited, with Barker taking aim at religion, calling it “divisive” and a phenomenon that “builds walls between people.” While he argued that the Boy Scouts and other international groups are essentially bigoted for not allowing atheists to be members (or, rather not offering an atheist oath for kids), I explained that, for the same reason Barker wouldn’t want someone favorable of nativities on public property on his organization’s board of directors, the scouts stick closely to their faith tradition.

“Morality has nothing to do with religion. You can be a good, kind, moral, ethical, productive citizen without believing in God,” Barker exclaimed. “What does religion have to do with morality? Morality transcends religion. Religion is divisive. It builds walls between people.”

After making this statement, I responded by telling Barker that, indeed, many atheists are kind and wonderful people. But the issue at the center of the debate over whether these groups should remove the Almighty from their oaths is an issue of freedom. Organizations essentially have the right to define their own membership requirements and the role of faith in their operations (for more about the UK scouts potential atheist oath, click here).

Watch the spirited discussion, below:

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Related:

UK Scouting Groups Consider Adding Anti-God Atheist Oath for Secular Children

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Comments (108)

TheGrtDcptn
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:15am
Co-President of FFRF said…

‘They (Boy Scouts) could KEEP their values, and expand their values’…

Who does he think he is fooling…?! Barker is indeed looking to remove God from the BS’s, notice he talks about how the BS’s are a quasi governmental organization, that has a congressional charter. I do not believe that Barker would allow the BS’s to “keep their values” when you see FFRF filing lawsuit after lawsuit because ONE anonymous person has been offended by a religious aspect. Barker (atheist) wants it his way…NO God…period.

‘If it turned into an atheist coven it would be a better Boy Scout because atheism is respectable, atheism is moral, atheism is kind, most atheist are good’…

In 99.8% of all posts I read here at The Blaze, as well as a few liberal sites, I have not seen one iota of respect for an opposing view…not ONE. As for being moral, when I see a post that says “more perversion is good”…well, it speaks for itself…fail. Sorry…but I do not view atheists as kind…nor good by the words and actions I have witnessed from them directly. Even by leaving religion and God out of my final thoughts, I find atheists repugnant…perhaps some atheists are kind, but I have yet to encounter one. Until that day, I am not interested in what they (atheists) have to offer…nothing…

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- The_Jerk
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:44am
  TheGrtDcptn: “‘They (Boy Scouts) could KEEP their values, and expand their values’…”
  
  That’s the arrogance of the left. You change to fit me is their mantra. If you don’t accept me, you’re the bigot.
  
  Report this comment
- Truthbeliever2
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:18pm
  Oh BILLY! Thank you so much for another installment of Huffpo’s FASCINATING DISCUSSIONS about how to hack away at Conservative values.
  
  And a special thanks to Glenn B. for hiring him to do this FINE job.
  
  Can ANY OF YOU BECKBOTS EXPLAIN THIS TO ME??? HELLO???
  
  Report this comment
- JULIKINS209
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:49pm
  First off, I am an athiest. I was raised Missionary Babtist. Atheists can be just a moral as Religous people. Athiests like myself do not have problems with faith. And we do not want to radicate the world of Religion. Religion is a very important part of society. Please don’t judge all of us like the gentleman from the Freedom of Religion Foundation. Like all groups, there are the radicals in every one that ruins it for everyone.
  
  Report this comment
- searcher619
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:52pm
  He he really meant they could keep their values then he wouldn’t be arguing for them to remove religion from the oath. I expected a better quality of argument from someone who claims to be intelligent and thoughtful.
  
  Report this comment
beckistheking
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:06am
Whoa there Billy. You said that his values fall on the other side of Christian values? That’s not the case at all. Your delusional beliefs have you so under their spell that you make false statements.

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- barber2
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:22am
  Gosh, by the mocking, dismissive name you chose for yourself, I am sure you will regale us with positive, objective, uplifting comments. Yawn.
  
  Report this comment
- Truthbeliever2
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:30pm
  See!!! As soon as someone points to the hypocrisy that is Beck and his journalists; in an attempt to wake the Beckbot sheep. They throw out some lame insult and instantly fall back to sleep.
  
  Report this comment
- Fubared
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 2:51pm
  2
  Surely you had a point, and just got so wound up in your self importance, that you lost track of your initial point. ZZzzzz. Oh, what did you say again? Your point, was the point, and all other points are pointless? Point us towards the truth oh pointless one.
  
  Report this comment
common cents
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:05am
Matthew 10: 34 Jesus said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword” (to divide) yes religion is divisive so said Christ himself.
Why do people who claim to believe in Christ lack in the knowledge of his teaching?

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- barber2
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:19am
  Christ was a very wise man. He knew that when you held moral and behavioral standards, other might oppose. The narrow gate, not the broad road is always going to restrict those who choose to enter.
  
  Report this comment
- common cents
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:24am
  The apostle Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2: 15 ” Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly DIVIDING the word of truth” we can go on and on folks we are here to be divided, “sheep from goats” “left and right” “light and darkness” etc. etc. etc.
  
  Report this comment
- barber2
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:31am
  COMMON: It would seem wise for a person to divide all actions into wise / dumb ; Good/ bad ; right / wrong. How could a functional person do otherwise ? All of this ” everybody’s beautiful ” philosophy when expanded to mean ” no action can be ruled immoral ” is down right stupid as well as morally dangerous. Judgement is necessary.
  
  Report this comment
- TheGrtDcptn
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:27pm
  And…
  
  Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
  
  Report this comment
SyndicateA1
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:48am
DeavonReye

I agree. As a non-believer I will also stand up against The State if it tries to ban religion.

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- Marine25
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:18am
  Count me as an atheist that would absolutely fight for someone’s right to believe.
  
  Report this comment
- Slammo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:39am
  I am also an athiest who believes in a person’s right to practice their religion.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 1:35pm
  Count me in with other atheists who would stand for believers to retain their rights to believe and worship.
  
  Report this comment
- trojans231
  Posted on December 11, 2012 at 10:18am
  As a former atheist, I respect those atheists that will stand with the religious. I personally have a strong hatred of the FFRF because they have refused to acknowledge my conversion. Seriously. I’m still a registered member even after appealing to them multiple times to remove me from the registers. I’d imagine it’d be easier to leave the LDS church than leave the FFRF.
  
  Also, Marine25, if atheism is my original status, so is being ignorant of science, so is being ignorant of the world, so is existing. Babies aren’t atheists, nor are they theists, so quit using that washed out argument. Better yet, go fact check all of your arguments and watch them squirm under honest pressure.
  
  Report this comment
RaydocX
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:47am
atheism is divisive… when atheists try to force others NOT to practice their beliefs.
Religion in public places– including schools and government buildings– is ONLY divisive if non-believers or merely non-practicing or shy individuals are forced to take part. that, when it has happened in the distant past, was due to overzealous educators and employers, not the existence of religion or prayer or recognition of religion in any of those places.

what is happening now is equally horrific, multiplied by the vastly larger number of people being denied their freedom to do what they would like.

to the atheist who claims it ‘makes their kids feel left out’ or other touchy feely drivel, all the courts should do is shrug. There is ZERO guarantee in the Constitution or in life that we will always be included, or will always feel comfortable with what people nearby believe or are doing.

every time an atheist tries to impose their will on others through the courts, they are doing EXACTLY what they claimed was wrong with having prayer in school or having any religious display anyplace public.

this is still a government where the majority decision rules.

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barber2
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:44am
Marxism is the new political religion of the Chicago 60s radical crowd and their young Democrat acolytes . Marx always said the ” religion is the opiate of the people,” and our young Democrats continue his campaign to eliminate it. This is NOTHING new to us older/ lived under Communism’s Mushroom Cloud generations. This is just new to our naive, clueless young idealists who had little or no religious background. Politics is their religion. The radicals have done a fine job baptizing and brainwashing these poor kids.

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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:56am
  New only in the context of geologic time, Barber.
  
  Report this comment
- charles116
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 6:52pm
  What is this stupid obsession with Chicago?
  I heard it was a toddlin’ town.
  So what.
  
  Report this comment
Locked
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:43am
“Religion is divisive”

Well, duh? Religious beliefs have a clear line of what’s accepted and what’s not. Almost ALL human organizations are divisive in the same way. Atheism (or at least, groups like the FFRF) is divisive… do you think theists get to join or are treated without disdain?

Saying “religion is divisive ” and ignoring that it not particular to religion but to the human experience is a nice talking point, but a hollow intellectual one.

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- barber2
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:46am
  LOCKED: Agree. The very word ” groups” implies a division !
  
  Report this comment
barber2
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:39am
SIXX: You obviously are an atheist with a desire to convert and a chip on your shoulder. All of this boils down to respect. The business of ” tax exempt” is such a focus with atheists. I am bothered that groups like Soros’ brainwashing myriad groups get tax exempt status when they are just as politically proselytizing as any religious organization. Guess that eliminating all tax loop holes is the answer ?

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- Marine25
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:28am
  you don’t convert to atheism. You revert to atheism. You didn’t believe in gods until you were taught to. Revert, not convert.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 1:09pm
  MARINE is correct, but to the point with Barber:
  
  First Pentecostal Church of North Little Rock, AR: They recently completed the building of a new church (because the one built in 1994 wasn’t new , nice or big enough) at a cost of over $24 million. This church is gorgeous and HUGE…has marble, and tiles made from rock brought from Israel. From inception to construction/completion and having the new church completely paid off was about 5 years. They paid for it through tithes and special offerings.
  
  Now what are they doing to minister to the people? Well, they do a weekend prison ministry on Saturdays, and provide some food to shelters and whatnot, and of course they hold church 4 times a week and prayer meeting every morning and evening. They also host an orphanage in India at a cost of approximately $100,000 a year. I know this because I had the testicular fortitude to ask. But building a ostentatious church was a more important use of that $24 million for ‘God’s’ work, right?
  
  The pastor owns a gorgeous, sprawling home and used to drive a Jaguar, while his wife and kids had to suffer in a Cadillac Escalade. Now I don’t want churches taxed (because I don’t want anyone taxed), but please understand the how and why people get upset about the tax exempt status of 501(c)3 churches when they see this type of crap. It’s more prevalent than most will admit.
  
  Report this comment
- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 3:00pm
  Actually, Marine is incorrect. He makes a glittering generality about how people become believers, and one that is patently wrong. For some reason, many unbelievers think that those who accept Christ, do so without critical thought or without careful investigation. Perhaps some do, but in my experience, that is a total fabrication passed from one unbeliever to another more as hateful gossip than anything of substance.
  
  Report this comment
Centralsville
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:39am
There is no morality without religion. If we are nothing but animals, without God and religion as the liberals claim, then we live in the animal world. In the animal world there is no right and wrong, there is no sin. Anything you do is perfectly natural, anything. As far as being divisive, that is the biggest joke of all. Liberals gain all their power from dividing us. Rich from poor, men from women, straight from gay, black from white, union from non-union, freedom from socialism, religious from atheists. The left makes their living from dividing us into groups and pitting us against each other. Without God if I kill an atheist it is no different from a lion killing another lion. Right or wrong doens’t even enter the equation. You have to remember, atheist communist nations have killed millions upon millions of people. It is so easy to kill when there is no God. Godless people in this country have killed millions of babies in their mother’s womb.

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- Marine25
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:32am
  You think christian women don’t have abortions?
  
  Report this comment
- Marine25
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:13pm
  Without god you kill an atheist and it’s no different than killing a lion?
  Without god you go to prison. Not fairy prison either. Prison. .
  With god you go to prison. Prison. Real prison. Although I hear they have a nice chapel service twice a week.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 11, 2012 at 11:29am
  @CENTRALSVILLE
  
  Hate I didn’t see this earlier. You realize that your post is full of assertions based on misinformation and personal bias, right?
  
  “There is no morality without religion.” – This is patently absurd. I base my morality/ethics on self-ownership (and personal responsibility), respect for property rights, and the non-aggression principle. Are these tenets immoral? They aren’t derived from religion. Not for me, anyway. In fact, one could argue religion teaches the opposite: you are the property of God, everything belongs to God, and if God says to kill, you’re duty bound to do so. Hmmm…
  
  “In the animal world there is no right and wrong… Anything you do is perfectly natural, anything.” – This is also patently absurd. It wholly conflicts with the fundamental morals/ethics listed above, and those of every single atheist I know.
  
  “Right or wrong doens’t even enter the equation.” — Again, absurdity. It is just as wrong for the atheist to kill, steal, rape, assault… ask one, or a thousand.
  
  “…atheist communist nations have killed millions upon millions of people. It is so easy to kill when there is no God. Godless people in this country have killed millions of babies in their mother’s womb.”
  
  This is the result of devout statism, not atheism. It’s unjust and incorrect for you to attribute the murderous nature of those political leaders to all atheists. That’s little different than racial stereotyping.
  
  Report this comment
rosegrower
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:16am
“What does religion have to do with morality?” The simple answer is that religion has EVERYTHING to do with morality. When morality is solely man-based, it changes according to popularity. When it is deity based, it is constant, because the standards are constant. And for those men who choose to reinterpret the standards for the sake of popularity (many churches come to mind here), they have chosen to serve the wrong master – the idol of popular culture – and are leading their people down what Jesus called “the wide path.”

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- Thomas
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:22am
  Funny every where people who believe in God go and build up then the atheist want to join? Perhaps in there heart they know what is real and true but always need someone else to blame for their problems.
  
  Report this comment
- Thomas
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:27am
  Why don’t atheist create their own organization?
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:34am
  “When it is deity based, it is constant, because the standards are constant.”
  
  This is laughable, I see all religions define morality differently and each denomination inside each religion define it differently.
  
  The Bible was written by humans and interpreted by humans thus the morality in it(and other so called holy books) is constantly changing. Sure, you can look at the way you interpret the Bible and say that it’s the “absolute” standard and unchanging but it’s just not so.
  
  Even worse, you continually don’t follow your supposed “morality” and then “repent” to yourself and think everything is okay.
  
  Lastly, your version of “morality” isn’t really morality but in fact obedient. You aren’t acting a certain way because that’s the type of person you are, or don’t enjoy harming other people. The only reason you are the way you are is because you’re being obedient.
  
  I’d rather have a person do the right thing because they’re the type of person who does the right thing vs a person who does the right thing because they think if they don’t, they might get in trouble from their sky daddy.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:45am
  @ROSEGROWER
  
  As an atheist, I base my ethics and morality on two fundamental concepts: respect for property rights, and the non-aggression principle. In other words, I believe that aggression (force, violence, theft etc) against others is immoral because I do not have the right to do any of these things to anyone else. We’re all human beings, and none of us have any moral or ethical claim to authority (especially to deprive, harm or steal) over others. And even the poorest of us are property owners if of nothing more than our own bodies and the fruits of our labor. So assaulting someone violates their property rights, as does theft, taxation, rape, murder and so on and so on, and are acts of aggression, which I believe are morally reprehensible. Long story short, my morality and ethics are not subjective, or open to the million interpretations of something like scripture, the Bible, Qu’uran, Torah or other “holy” books. Instead, it is objective, much simpler, easier to understand, and can NEVER be used to justify acts of violence, aggression or theft against others… like religion can be used to do. Mine is the true ‘narrow’ path, and shows the greatest respect for my fellow human beings, regardless of what they believe, what they do or how they behave. The only justification for the employment of violence is self-defense. Period.
  
  @THOMAS
  
  I actually suggested to the Freedom From Religion organization that they create an atheist version of the scouts.
  
  Report this comment
- b2smooth
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:40am
  @ Thomas: The reason they don’t create their own organization is because that would reveal how few of them are actually asking for it. When their low numbers, as compared to the actual scouts, show how few of them there are people would be less inclined to take them so seriously.
  
  Report this comment
- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 2:41pm
  Moderation says:
  This is laughable, I see all religions define morality differently and each denomination inside each religion define it differently.
  
  It’s nice to be able to make such claims without any supporting evidence. It’s also a bunch of bull.
  
  Report this comment
- sean.thelordofup
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 2:42pm
  @ChrisDiamond
  You say that religions are “divisive” and have caused a lot of suffering. Yes, but Anti-theists have comitted far more and far worse atrocities in the name of atheistic enlightenment. Or do you not remember Lenin, Stalin and Mao? “The Great Leap Forward”?
  
  Report this comment
- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 2:54pm
  Moderation says:
  I’d rather have a person do the right thing because they’re the type of person who does the right thing vs a person who does the right thing because they think if they don’t, they might get in trouble from their sky daddy.
  
  First, this shows how little he knows about Christ followers and how bigoted he is in spite of it. He makes an absurd generality as a straw man, and then uses it to bash those he dislikes. Typical.
  
  Second, he judges people’s motives, which is really laughable as he obviously knows nothing about a Christ follower’s motiviation. This is evidenced by his belief that we do “right” to avoid punishment. His ignorance is not unique with unbelievers.
  
  Third, he attempts to poke a stick in the eye of those he dislikes by mocking their deeply held belief in God by calling Him “skydaddy”. Why does he enjoy hurting others that he obviously does not understand? Some people are just mean.
  
  Report this comment
- charles116
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 6:53pm
  I heard that for every drop of rain that falls
  a flower grows!
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 11, 2012 at 11:39am
  @SEAN.THELORDOFUP
  
  You’re confusing atheistic enlightenment with the spread of the desire for a communist/socialist utopia. The two are not mutually exclusive.
  
  Mao was so committed to the idea of creating the Communist Utopia that he just had to kill or reeducate everyone who stood in his way. He was indescribably narcissistic, and wholly devoted to the creation of an all-powerful state for ‘social benefit’ that he was willing to kill millions to bring it about. I mean, how many Christians were in China before the Great Leap Forward or the cultural revolution? He killed tens of millions more fellow atheists than he did Christians. I would bet that figure would ring true (though arguably with less disparity) for Stalin and Lenin.
  
  Statism is a sickness. Like religion in some historical instances, it convinces people to commit horrendous atrocities under the guise of it being for the ‘greater good.’ We collectivize the power to commit the very worst of our baser human desires in a governmental body, and then stand behind the gun in the room for programs/agendas etc that we support, and then complain about it being used against us for things we do not support. Christians and atheists alike love having control of that gun, and cry out when they don’t, though neither group will admit it.
  
  Report this comment
BladeFyre
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:13am
It’s a shame really, the BSA was founded with Christian beliefs. It isn’t a government organization so they don’t fall under the separation of church and state argument. And yes I know they sometimes meet in schools AFTER HOURS… But so do many atheist groups. Another fair question (as pointed to in previous posts) is why not start their own organization, such as the Non-Believing Scouts of America (NBSA)?

On the flip side, I would like to see atheists go after say Islamic faith based youth programs, or even Jewish based youth programs (so their kids can attend “God” free). For that matter why not the Free Masons (after all you have to believe in a supreme being to be a Mason)… and see what kind of backlash they receive then!!!!! Oh wait, that wouldn’t work, atheist only like to go after Christian groups.

With that said I have an atheist friend who says atheist haven’t tried to block or sue other religions because they don’t put up decorations or prayers in government/school places… Yeah, Sure they don’t.

What about the teacher making the students recite Islamic prayers in schools in VA (the girl who’s hand was cut), or in that fact in many schools across our nation (they teach them in my kids’ school)? Or the placing of a Menorah at government/public buildings in Jewish communities?

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Exidor
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:02am
“Religion is divisive”

So is an axe in the head.

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- AvengerK
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:35am
  Apparently vehemently secular/humanist constructs like communism are not divisive?
  
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ChrisDiamond
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:53am
As an atheist, I believe the Scouts and any other organization/entity has the freedom to choose whom they will and will not associate with. I think his efforts would be much more productive if he created a similar organization for atheists who wanted their kids to have the experience of scouting without the religious influence. Perhaps they could base their ethics and morality in respect for property rights and the non-aggression principle…

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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:59am
  Atheism is the religion of the State. Property is in the sole propriety of the State. The only property rights allowed are those generously and temporarily granted to you by the grace of the State.
  
  Report this comment
- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:29pm
  @CAVALLO
  “Atheism is the religion of the State. Property is in the sole propriety of the State. The only property rights allowed are those generously and temporarily granted to you by the grace of the State.”
  
  While the majority of public atheists are also statists of some sort or another (communist, socialists, anarcho-syndicalists etc), there are a growing contingent of atheists who, like me, advocate property rights, the abolishment of the state and the Non-Aggression Principle as the basis for ‘law’ in society. Meanwhile in what many would say is the Christian country of America, we do not own property. Even when the mortgage is paid in full, we still have to pay the state property taxes. Statism is not inherently and exclusively atheistic, as we can plainly see in the US. If I’m correct, you are a Christian, but I would bet dollars to donuts that you are for very limited government, or minarchism, which isn’t much different than a diet version of statism.
  
  Report this comment
liltexasgal
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:44am
The radicals on both sides of the aisle are the minority and they are making us all look bad. We are being divided unnecessarily by extremists. As a Christian, I could actually care less what you do with your life so long as it doesn’t cause harm to anyone. I’m here on earth to work out my own salvation, not yours. I’ll help anyone who asks me for help, regardless of their beliefs, race, status, …whatever! I think the majority of people are this way.

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media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:23am
Only in America do activists try that kind of talk, in other countries they would not have a niche or foothold at all?

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media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:20am
So that’s why the Democrats favor Muslims?

Stop playing politics with stuff that is not political?

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The_Jerk
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:20am
” …bigoted for not allowing atheists to be members… .”

Always their argument. If you don’t change for me, you’re bigoted. Fact is, it’s a freedom of association practice. There are people who simply don’t want to hang out with atheists. They don’t want their children hanging out with atheists. They have that right.

The bigot is the one who thinks that he/she should be accepted by everyone.

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- SixX
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:57am
  Discrimination is bigotry when it tells one group they are not welcome in tax-payer supported activities. The scouts get special treatment from the government, and yet it is divisive and exclusive to US citizens.
  
  Report this comment
- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:01am
  The State will force you to associate. That choice is not yours.
  
  Report this comment
- SixX
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:03am
  No, the bigot is the one who thinks others are not ‘as good’ as others, and attempts to shut them out.
  
  Bigotry is a form of fascism.,.which is purely religious in nature.
  
  “Fascism is a religious concept.” ~ Benito Mussolini
  
  Report this comment
- The_Jerk
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:24am
  SixX, no. The bigot is the one who thinks that his/her behavior should be accepted by everyone. The bigot is the one who thinks that everybody else should change. Fact is, the Boy Scouts are private, not public.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:26am
  I have actually seen some christians on here claim “atheists have no soul”, thus the conclusion is that “since a soul exists, and they obviously don’t have one, they are lower than us”. I’m not sure why people can’t just let people live their lives without resorting to such personal attacks, even if [in reality] they are actually meaningless.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Jerk
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:42am
  DeavonReye, tell that to your atheist friends.
  
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- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 3:17pm
  Devon, you say: I have actually seen some christians on here claim “atheists have no soul”, thus the conclusion is that “since a soul exists, and they obviously don’t have one, they are lower than us”.
  
  First, what is a “soul”?
  
  Second, why do you judge the intent of a person when you do not have the ability to read minds? The Christians I associate with do not hold unbelievers as being somehow “lower than us.” Where do you get such a construct? If a so called “Christian” does believe that, then they are not very far along in their walk with Christ and should be pointed to scripture that resoundingly refutes that.
  
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Granny58
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:13am
Saw D. Barker in debate. His arguments were useless. If he wants to be taken seriously, he needs to up his game.

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- SixX
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:16am
  Dan Barker makes great points. He was the only one that stood up for ALL citizens…not just ones who think like he does.
  
  Atheism is inclusive, not exclusive.
  
  The Scouts are divisive and exclusive. Therefore promoting intolerance and bigotry by shutting out other citizens who want to participate in scouting activities.
  
  I mean, really, what ‘harm’ is it to include and expand into a more diverse group? Answer, it isn’t a harm at all. In fact, it would strengthen and modernize the scouts.
  
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- TheGrtDcptn
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 1:23pm
  ‘In fact, it would strengthen and modernize the scouts’…
  
  You forgot one stipulation…As long as The BS of A removes GOD…That IS your atheist bottom line…
  
  Funny how atheists are so blind to their own hypocrisy…you call others intolerant, decisive, exclusive and bigots…Look in the mirror, atheists are ALL of those things…and so much more…
  
  If atheists are so inclusive, then perhaps FFRF will show tolerance for ALL and allow a nativity to be placed on their property for Christmas…
  
  Is that a NO…?! I believe so…
  
  http://www.theblaze.com/stories/nativity-on-wheels-pa-community-battles-atheist-complaints-with-display-of-jesus-birth-on-platform-in-front-of-city-hall/
  
  As has been said many times, you are free to form your own scout troop for unbelievers, but that just isn;t good enough, is it…?!…and we both know why…
  
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- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 3:31pm
  SIXX, if you cannot say with your whole heart “On my honor, I will do my best
  To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law….” then why should you try to become a Scout? Is that not fundamental to their organization?
  
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1_Smoot_Tall
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:13am
Did you ever notice that atheists cannot prove love exists yet they profess to love their families?

More importantly, atheists do not believe in an afterlife. So they think their Earth-time is all they will get, right? So why do they waste so much of it trying to destroy religion and offend the religious including here on the Blaze? How can they justify to their children one day why they spent their limited Earth-time away from them?

I think they actually have the same healthy degree of doubt/faith that goes with all belief systems. But, unlike the faithful, they get trapped in a cycle of escalation as they try harder and harder to convince others (in order to feel secure in their beliefs) that their lack of faith can be justified and proven if only enough people come along and sink with them.

Or they are emissaries/useful idiots of the Adversary and are trying to destroy The One True God out of service to the god of their choosing.

Pray for them but do not give in to them for their way leads to destruction.

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- SixX
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:59am
  That’s completely false. You CAN prove love by looking at the way your family/partner/kids treat you….in their actions and words. Biologically speaking, you can even measure the chemical stimulus when the ‘love emotion’ is felt.
  
  Just because you can’t prove god exists doesn’t mean you can’t prove love exists…even in non-believers.
  
  Religion is simply fascism given a pleasant face.
  
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- Winedude
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 1:01pm
  To carry your absurd argument a step further, I cannot prove to you that God doesn’t exist. On the other hand, there is no way that you can prove to me that God does exist. I’m looking for real proof, not some absurd belief that praying had some minimalist effect on what is happening in anyone’s life.
  For what it’s worth, I did have a religious upbringing. However, when I had to deal with religious leaders later in life I realized how absurd the whole this is. It’s one giant scam to take your money, far worse than anything the government (even with this President) dreams.
  
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- Fubared
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 2:56pm
  Wino
  So the individual aspect of faith and religion escaped you? Why is that no where near suprising or lamentable? Blah blah blah wino has spoken and let it be said that what he said has been said by better atheists than he. Let it be written and all hail whatever dribble wino opines on this day, the year of our wino, 2012. Hey Men and pass the salsa and cheap swill.
  
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RJJinGadsden
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:13am
Instead of bending an existing organisation to the will of the some. Why not get busy and start your own version of the Scouts. The American Boy Scouts was as off spring of the British Boy Scouts and was started as a religious organization. Simply making a God and religious free OATH will not be enough for the atheist parents of scouts. It will simply open more doors for future law suits when there is any mention of religion in this religion based organization, not to mention having prayer. How many organizations can any of you think of that are truly all inclusive? Really none that I can think of. Wow, what a concept? So much for live and let live.

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- Zipit
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:41am
  The Atheist Scouts huh! Should be able to procure some federal $$ for that! Wouldn’t ya think?
  
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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:05am
  They could call it Obama Jungend.
  
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- AvengerK
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:33am
  You already know the answer to your question RJJING…it’s because this isn’t about being your own group..it’s about erasing another from public life. Atheists use “inclusiveness” as their reason d etre that is to say…we should all function under a neutral set of rules without a group or religion dictating terms or conditions. It doesn’t matter how long that group has been in existence or how bening it is..it ends right now or else. But in fact what they’re doing is taking away all connections to religion from public life. Inclusiveness has nothing do with it..vindicitiveness is what’s motiviating them.
  
  You know what happens next..you’re a student of history and humanity. Human beings have a need to fill a void in their lives. Take religion away and replace it with humanism and atheism and what happens? You replace God with the state. You replace the rock solid foundation of the laws of God with the fickle, amorphous whims of man and state.
  
  So it’s not about starting their own group of atheist scouts and letting competition be the decider..it’s about erasing God from public life.
  
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barber2
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:09am
The issue here is intolerance. When one looses respect for another person’s rights , all of this begins. And it is not limited to religious intolerance. Today we see political intolerance. Mobs . Bullying. Killing. Intimidating. Rampant disrespect for others . Humanity taking a giant leap backward.

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- SixX
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:11am
  Agreed. The Scouts should be more tolerant of other people’s perspectives….even atheists. Atheists in the scouts do not stop religious scouts from believing in their assumed god. Nothing would be taken away from the scouts by allowing atheists in.
  
  Also, what ‘values’ are the religious Scouts claiming anyway? Intolerance and bigotry?
  
  Religious people have a long history of discriminating, killing, and abusing people who simply do not believe as they do. What type of ‘morality’ or value is that really? Rational people call that hatred, and its far from a ‘value’.
  
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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:24am
  Atheists are far better at killing than religious zealots, or should it be, they are more efficient. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot..
  
  poor poor little Tomás de Torquemada couldn’t even hold a candle, nor even the Turks against the Armenians. Their pathetic religious attempts at oppression and mass murder are extremely sad when faced with the priests of the god of State. It is a good thing the Christians gave up the attempts. Maybe someday the Muslims will learn they are out classed as murderers by the atheists, but it might take some time.
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 12:48pm
  @CAVALLO
  
  The impetus for the crusades was an appeal by Emperor Alexis to Pope Urban II to amass a Christian Army with the motivation of holy mandate to reclaim his lost tax farms. The Moslem Turks provided the religious appeal by halting the Christian pilgrimages to Jerusalem, so Alexis turned to the Pope. One could reasonably presume that Alexis understood that an army of religiously motivated volunteers (under papal advisement and the enticement of having all sins committed during the war absolved) would fare much better than a bunch of conscripts forced to fight for him to regain lost tax farms would. It also isn’t that big a leap to believe the Pope saw what would become the Crusades as a means by which to expand Catholic influence and get more in tithes. Today, the Muslims kill under ‘mandate’ from the Qu’uran, and the Christian Americans kill them preemptively under the scam of a Christian ‘Just War’ theory birthed in crusades I wrote about above. And I didn’t even menmtion the inquisition, or the murder of ‘heathen’ native Americans under Manifest Destiny.
  
  Statism and Religion are responsible for more atrocities against mankind than anything else. And currenrtly, the Muslims are having their backsides whipped by Christian Americans, are they not? Not by atheists. I don’t know any atheists who support our wars, ever since Hitchens died anyway.
  
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- TheGrtDcptn
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 2:11pm
  Great Post Cavallo…The TRUTH shall set us free, Thanks =)
  
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- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 3:43pm
  SIXX, how do you know the Scouts are intolerant? Is the word “tolerant” synonomous with “acceptance”? If you can’t or won’t abide by the rules of the club, should you be counted as a member?
  
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- Sparky101
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 3:50pm
  Diamond, how did the muslim/turks gain control of the “holy lands”? Did they take something that was not theirs to begin with? Were they gentle and loving to the original inhabitants?
  
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- charles116
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 6:50pm
  What about gay folks rights. hon.
  Or the rights of a couple to terminate an unwanted pregnancy?
  
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- ChrisDiamond
  Posted on December 11, 2012 at 12:05pm
  @SPARKY101
  
  “Diamond, how did the muslim/turks gain control of the “holy lands”? Did they take something that was not theirs to begin with? Were they gentle and loving to the original inhabitants?”
  
  I thought the post was about the murderous nature of atheists in contrast to believers. Like it or not, Muslims believe in a deity. They are not atheists. So… I’m not sure how your question is relevant to the overall discussion.
  
  If you intend to insinuate that killing by one group (the Moslem Turks in this instance) justifies killing by another (the Christian Crusaders), then you disavow the teachings of Christ. The Crusades, though sold as defending Christians and Christian rights, were not defensive; they were offensive. A force from one place went to another for the purpose of killing and initiating violence. By contrast, Christ did not call for violence against those who oppressed Christians, even those who tortured him and hung him on the cross.
  
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MrButcher
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 8:50am
We’re all living in Amerikafka

Amerikafka ist wunderbar!

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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:12am
  Jawohl! Der Obama-Führer ist vor allem!
  
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curmudgeon60
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 8:49am
Thanks Mr.Hallowell (Bill) for taking this on! I love the Blaze stories on faith–because that’s what and where– in the end– it all comes down to. It takes educated reason to be able to argue and support those arguements- as so many of the readers on here are able to do, so again, THANK YOU, and Merry Christmas!

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- jackact
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 11:42am
  Ditto
  
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ares338
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 8:49am
More perpetually angry atheists trying to stir up crap. It would be different if atheists were tolerant but they want everyone to be like them. Sound familiar? I am not a fan of religion but I absolutely back up the Scouts in their position. By the way..I am not an atheist.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 9:55am
  I’m as close to “atheist” as I care to be, currently, . . . but am tolerant of people’s faith, even if I disagree with them from time to time. I wouldn’t try to take their faith away from them.
  
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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:08am
  @Devaonreye, The State will do that for you, you don’t need to try.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 7, 2012 at 10:23am
  If the state attempts to take away a person’s right to a personal faith, I will stand up against that.
  
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barber2
Posted on December 7, 2012 at 8:46am
Male and female is ” divisive.” These “one world” / ” no walls ” people are so out to lunch.

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