Why does God allow pain and suffering? This age-old question, of course, presumes that a higher power exists — a notion that some individuals most certainly reject. Regardless, the vast majority of society believes in a creator and, when tragedy strikes, most people find themselves questioning the allowance for such horrendous events and personal pain.
In the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting on Friday, a traumatic event that left 28 individuals dead, including 20 small children, this pertinent question is at the forefront of peoples’ minds. While it’s perfectly natural to wonder why an all-loving and all-powerful deity would allow such horror to befall kids and families, alike, finding viable and definitive answers is a monumental — and some might argue, impossible — task.

People pray at Mountainside Assembly of God Church in Coal Township, Pa., during a interfaith prayer vigil, Sunday, Dec. 16, 2012, for the victims of Newtown, Conn. Twenty-six people, including 20 children, were killed in Friday’s shooting rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Credit: AP
TheBlaze reached out to faith leaders and Biblical experts to ask why, from a Judeo-Christian perspective, the Lord (for those who believe in his existence) would permit such horror. Their responses may bring comfort to some, may satisfy others — and will likely still leave additional Americans with new and unanswered questions.
Dr. Darrell Bock, professor at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of “Who Is Jesus?: Linking the Historical Jesus with the Christ of Faith,” explained the role and prominence of personal decision-making when asked why God allows pain and suffering.
“We are human beings endowed with the image of God. So God made us to make choices and have responsibilities for how we exercise our choices,” he wrote in an e-mail, going on to also explain that personal freedom and choice are mutually exclusive.
“Although it is a mystery why such specific and quite tragic things happen and no one can explain them, those who often ask where God is and why he does not stop it are often those who wish to have the maximum freedom to be humans and makes choices for their lives,” Bock added.

Clergy pray at Mountainside Assembly of God Church in Coal Township, Pa., during a non-denominational pray vigil, Sunday, Dec. 16, 2012, for the victims of Newtown, Conn. Twenty-six people, including 20 children, were killed in Friday’s shooting rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Credit: AP
The point here is that, unfortunately, the freedom to make choices — which the professor believes is God-given — comes with it the potential for damaging decisions that may harm others. Dr. David D. Ireland, senior pastor of Christ Church in New Jersey and the author of “The Skin You Live In”, also noted the power and potential role of personal choice in inflicting pain.
“God established humanity with free will,” he said. “We can choose to do right or wrong, evil or good. Certainly there are consequences to our choices.”
With this dynamic at play, Ireland gave an important caveat — one that many people of faith likely know well: “When tragedy strikes in response to evil behavior, God graciously pours out His comfort to medicate our aching souls.”
These two men of faith weren’t alone in their assessment of why God allows horrific and life-altering events to take form. Rabbi Aryeh Spero, president of Caucus For America and the author of “Push Back: Reclaiming the American Judeo-Christian Spirit”, mirrored these assessments, noting, too, that God affords human beings free will and the power for personal decision-making.
While some question why God doesn’t step in to stop massive crimes from unfolding, Spero has an answer.
“So as to allow us continued free will and, more or less, control our own destiny, God mostly does not interfere,” he told TheBlaze. “We learn lessons and grow, as individuals and as a society, by living with the results of what we do and don’t do.”
And unfortunately, these “results” and negative choices can be monumentally damaging. Notice, though, that the rabbi said that God “mostly” leaves free will to its own devices. Spero also noted, though, that at times God does intervene but that the reasons for this protection are a “mystery.”
“Occasionally God spares us from impending doom, and sometimes He even performs the extraordinary in our behalf,” he added. Moses wanted to know precisely this: What is God’s yardstick? But it is not mathematics; and man, not being God, does not know all the whys and whats of God.”

A sign reads ‘God Bless the Families’ outside of a home near the Sandy Hook School on December 15, 2012 in Newtown, Connecticut. Credit: AFP/Getty Images
Spero believes that pain is a part of life and the human condition and that, regardless of how hard we seek out an answer, obtaining a complete one will never be possible. Some people are certainly uncomfortable with this notion — not knowing why an all-loving God would permit such intense horror.
Yet others understand what these men of faith are saying: In order for true individual freedom and choice to rule the day, the potential for both negative and positive decision-making is essential.
Fox News analyst and priest Father Jonathan Morris, who also noted this dynamic, gave some advice to Americans who are coping with this difficult question about God and his allowances.
“When I see such terrible abuses of our God-given free will, I first cry, then I stand in awe of how much God must value love — the reason he risked gifting us this most delicate and powerful freedom in the first place,” he told TheBlaze. “Beyond any political or social solution, the first is this: Double down on love.”
For a more intense and elongated discussion about why God allows pain and tragedy, consider reading Christian author Lee Strobel’s extensive comments. What do you think about these views on matters of faith, personal responsibility and free will? Take the poll below and tell us your views on these issues:

























































































































Comments (316)
hillbillyinny
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:30pmGod’s WILL is perfection. He gave us perfection in the beginning. He gave us ONE RULE. Since we were not created puppets and had freewill, we decided not to follow the RULE. We brought SIN into the world. All of creation was affected, but just humanity!
But God gave one promise, that a Savior would come from the posterity of Eve. Jesus came, he died and paid for all of the sins of all of humanity, past, present and future.
But again, the non-puppets, humans, are given a choice–to accept the gift of salvation or not, and to live the life that God wants each of us to live, with his Son, the Word leading us and the Holy Spirit indwelling us.
Those who choose to embrace God’s plan have the “eyes” and “ears” to understand it. Those who to the end of their earthly life choose not to embrace the plan and/or walk away from the plan, choose their own eternal future.
When Jesus comes back to earth, in the end all of creation will be redeemed into a New Heaven and a New Earth, and all will be returned into the original plan of God.
Choose wisely. . .
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:54pmWhy do all of the institutions that speak for God always seek money from those hearing God’s supposed words? Christ never passed the plate, yet many who speak for Christ demand tithing and tax returns from the people. I see hypocrisy and cashing in on God as the perversion, the real evil.
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Trigus
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:02pmCorrect – Free Will – the simple answer.
We blame firearms and God but we never blame ourselves as a whole. Everyone is to blame for these evil senseless acts of violence.
“Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature…. If the next centennial does not find us a great nation … it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces.”
James Garfield, the twentieth president of the United States, 1877
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Jezreel
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:02pmWhen God starts to pass judgement upon a nation, one of the first beginning of that judgment is his “Abandonment judgment”. God has abandoned the United States. There has to be a repentance from our iniquities and evil. Another sign that God has passed judgment is the homosexuality. If you read Roman’s one correctly, it states that homosexuality is part of the judgment of God. If people don’t like that, it is tough. God is God. He is holy and he is righteous and he will have HIS WAY upon the earth. Judgement needs to happen. Fire purifies and clenses. None of us are righteous anyhow without Jeshua and we know in our hearts that we deserve the death penalty.
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RJJinGadsden
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:03pmTHE_JERK, Print the list at this link, then trot yourself to the nearest local library and look it up in one of their bibles. Unless, they have outlawed the bible in your community. And, no I do not blame that on you. Just your lack of understanding of the bible.
http://www.tithing.com/blog/bible-verses-about-tithes/
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girlnurse
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:03pmYou’re right JERK and if Christ was here He would probably turn the tables over on some of them. MANY of them will be judged and never see God. Many of them don’t know Him at all. But MANY are good and use the money to spread the gospel around the world which Christ told us to do.
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:15pmRJJ, most of those quotes are taken from the ethnocentric, Jewish written, Old Testament, that had to be replaced with Christ’s new, universal, New Testament. Of those taken from the New Testament, none require tithing. All are critical of the Jewish Pharisees, the founders of the religion, that would in 300-500 A.D., become Judaism.
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:15pm@The Jerk, you are correct. Those that cajole, or pressure for money and then spend that money on big screen TVs and light shows are hypocrites. Charity and giving should come from the heart, and Christian churches are usually expected to use the vast majority of that charity towards charitable actions (soup kitchens, homeless shelters, aid for those in need). Don’t confuse those that abuse such a system to create a social club where they hang out on Sundays with those that truly believe in the act of giving and helping.
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Trigus
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:19pm“If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, error will be; If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendancy, If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will; If the power of the Gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of the land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end.”
Daniel Webster
“It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains.”
Patrick Henry
“I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.” Thomas Jefferson
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REBELWITHACAUSE
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:20pmJERK – Not ALL churches ‘demand’ tithes and offerings. However, if they are God’s true church, being led by Christ, they are quick to remind the church that GOD does require tithes and offerings. Tithes are a tenth of one’s gross salary, and offerings are just that… give as you are able, with a widows mite more appreciated by God than a hefty wad of dough by someone with a bad or wrong attitude. The problem began with mankind at the 2 trees. Adam and Eve were given specific instructions on how to live, by God himself. But, Satan, being the ruler of this world, deceived Eve (Eve chose), and what’s worse is, while Satan, a spirit being, deceived Eve, Adam was manipulated by Eve. HE should have known better. But, we forget the power of Satan and we don’t stay close to God, DAILY in prayer, striving 24/7 to be Christ-like. Thus, we enter into sin, and well.. God turned man away from the Garden and the way to the tree of life. There’s a lot more to go into here, but… I’ll stop preaching there. Suffice it to say, there IS ONE TRUE CHURCH… led by Christ himself in this last hour. Seek it out… it would be the only church keeping every word of God, ruled by His government, in agape love. EZEK. 7:23-28 We are in the last half of the last hour.
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:30pmREBELWITHACAUSE: “… GOD does require tithes and offerings. Tithes are a tenth of one’s gross salary, and offerings are just that… .”
If they were God’s, and not man’s, words, Christ would have used them. He did not. Man did, but he did not. Christ chased the money changers and profit makers from the temple. And, he did it all without lavish sound systems and live entertainment.
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cessna152
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:31pmWhy Does God Allow Pain and Suffering? The question should be “why do we blame God for pain and suffering”?
My 2 year old child was repeatedly told to NOT stick her finger into the electrical outlet. When he did, he got shocked repeatedly. As I went to embrace him, he slapped me in anger. All the while crying “bad daddy…bad daddy”.
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:37pmcessna152, you deserved it. They make plastic plug covers.
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cessna152
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:52pm@the_jerk,
He pulled them off….
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:55pmAh, then you have a smart, curious, kid. Good attributes. Man up, and take those smacks.
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DissenterKnight
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:11pm@The_Jerk
On the topic of money and churchmen, you ask a very fair question to which there is a simple answer; wheat an tares. Not everyone among the body is of the body; that includes the man at the pulpit. There are those in the church who are just going through the motions with no true -or at least complete- understanding. Christ’s own words tell us that not all who call on Him will he know. That’s not on Him, that’s on us.
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Exrepublisheep
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:29pmI believe God allows suffering so we can find out who we are. Every human faces trials and tribulations so in the end when you face the Creator you will be able to give a full account of yourself. You can read every book there is on boxing, watch every match, but you need to get punched in the face a couple of times to find out what kind of fighter you really are. Even the very wealthy face their own tests. I don’t think God will ask what you did for others but what COULD you have done.
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:50pmPay to pray. Sounds bad.
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REBELWITHACAUSE
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:03pmTHE_JERK – You really have no faith in God then. If you did, you would trust that he would not create man without an instruction book for his creation to live by. Yes, man wrote it, but it’s inspired by God. Seek out the Bible with the best(most correct) translations. Get yourself a concordance. Be willing to study and seek out the meaning of each word in a scripture you question. Prove all things. And by the way, Christ chased the money changers from the temple because they were doing this on the Sabbath. They knew better and should have been ashamed of themselves. THAT has nothing to do with tithing and giving of offerings.
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Alessandre
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:30pm@The Jerk: Christ never needed to pass the plate. The “women who served” traveled w/ Christ & made certain he & his disciples had what they needed; many of these women were the wives of rich men. And though Christ’s needs were simpler, his needs were attended to by people who gave money. (How could Judas keep the money for the group if there was no money?)
I don’t know the particular church you are referring to or if you’re referring to all churches but tithing, giving 1/10th of one’s goods/income to support those who serve us spiritually & to care for the poor has been the standard since Moses. “The laborer is worthy of his hire” means, those who work to care for our souls ought to be paid for doing so particularly so they can be free to care for us. At one time, payment was mostly material goods & food & then money. Now, it is mostly money. But I know many priests & ministers who are grateful for a hot meal, a cake or other material gifts. If we want their care, we must care for them but the poor, obviously, have much less to give.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:38pmRebel- I agree with you except where you said Jesus chased the money changers out of the temple because it was the sabbath. I’m going to assume you just had a memory lapse for a second and forgot the real reason why he drove them out. It was because they had turned his father’s temple into a “den of thieves.” They were ripping people off and being corrupt that is the real reason. Also, Jesus said you can still do things on the sabbath. You know doing helpful acts and all. He helped people on the sabbath remember.
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The_Jerk
Dec. 17, 2012 at 5:57pmRebel, ” Seek out the Bible with the best(most correct) translations.”
This is an inherently foolish statement. Most correct per who? Best per who?
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Chromo200
Dec. 17, 2012 at 6:26pmThe- JERK .. We are commanded to provide support to our ministers and teachers and widows and orphans .. We as individuals and not the gov’t.
Because some misuse the money they get is their fault.
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johnnylingo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 6:53pmLets see. We take God out of the schools, the teachings of the commandments he has given to make our lives happy and prosporus.He says “thou shall not commit murder”but our leaders in their great wisdom, make abortion legal and 750,000 babies in the US were murdered last year ,to hide sin basically.God tells us that man shall not lie with another man, but we in our great desire to do whatever our bodies lust to do, whether it be adultery, homosexuality, or live in fornication. Why do we expect God to intervene when we are ignoring Him at every choice. God sends rain in due season for obedience,then why do we choose evil and are surprised when drought comes?? Seems we don’t look to God unless we have to. War brings us closer. Remember 9/11 ? The year following seemed to be a soul searching year,but that has long gone. We could pray in faith to have our problems reduced, however, who prays in faith when they know they have just sinned greiviously? We need a moral reawakening to pull our country out of this abyss, bur our last election showed God we want Abortiion, same sex marriages, drugs etc. Looks like it will be a while before God checks in to see if we want to listen to Him or continue in our self destructive choices.
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nonwinger
Dec. 17, 2012 at 7:07pmUnfortunately your conclusions don’t jive with scripture. “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” “The Lord works out everything for his own ends even the wicked for a day of disaster.” “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.” “Does the axe raise itself above him who swings it…” “I am the Lord and there is no other, I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” “Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?” I could go on but why beat a dead horse? Ask yourself, does Christ save me, or am I saving myself by making the right choice?
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johnnylingo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 7:38pmYour correct in that Christ saves me, but only if I choose Him. He doesn’t force Himself on anyone. I can make my life more meaningful and blessed by choosing to Follow Jesus and keep his commandments. God knows what choices I will make ahead of time,but it is still my responsibility to make them. Taken together the scriptures show we are saved by grace, after we choose to do all we can do. I think he allows the wicked to do what they do, so when they get to the judgement bar they won’t be able to say”Oh I would never have done that” because they in fact did do it.Many times the so called rightous are called upon to suffer along with the wicked, but God will make that all up to them at the proper time. By exercising our moral agency correctly we are generally more protected.
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HowardSternIsABigot
Dec. 17, 2012 at 7:56pmjerk, why do people that detest a God they claim to not believe in blame Him for all the evil done by humans? A much more relevant question. Unless youre a brainwashed nitwit. no longer capable of thinking outside your brainwashing.
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Hanner
Dec. 17, 2012 at 8:37pm@THE JERK – You are on to some wisdom about the tithing thing. The NT teachings of Paul were about seeing another’s need and filling that need. Paul stated that he had the right to accept material support from the church, but he refused to indulge it for the sake of the Gospel. The legalistic teaching of a tenth for tithing was NOT taught in the NT doctrine of Christ or the Apostles. The tithes was instituted in the OT for the Levites serving in the temple. Original tithes was in the form of agriculture, not money! The tithes was required from the farmers and ranchers, not the reapers of the field. Tithes was to be collected by the Levitical priests only. Seen any of them lately? Seeing as You and I are the temple of God now, who will tithe to us???? Tithing became obsolete when the Lord made us a living temple to God. I will do what Paul has taught us to do…. I will look to the needs of others and help where I can. Not only that, I will also follow Paul’s example and WORK for my daily needs. How’s that for proper doctrine? PS. Tithing was reestablished by the Roman Catholic church, not the Lord.
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Becks_Art_Obama_In_PeePee
Dec. 18, 2012 at 12:02am“Why Does God Allow Pain and Suffering?”
The REAL question is:
“Why Does THE GOD OF THIS WORLD Allow Pain and Suffering?”
The Holy God Of Israel IS NOT ruling today’s world. That is why Jesus the Christ must return — to be crowned — “Lord Of Lords” and “King Of Kings”, to rule forever as Righteous God.
The god of this age was an archangel, Lucifer (“morning sun” or “day star”), whom the Almighty God granted ruler-ship, until he tried to seize all power, and so became now known as the Devil and Satan (“adversary”):
12 – “How you are fallen from heaven,
. O Lucifer, son of the morning! …
13 – For you have said in your heart:
. ‘I will ascend into heaven, …
. I will be {like} the Most High.’
[Isaiah 14, Holy Bible]
It’s BECAUSE mankind follows the ways of it’s ruler, Satan, the Devil, that MANKIND PRODUCES pain and suffering:
42 – Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I
. proceeded forth and came from God; …
44 – You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
[John 8, Holy Bible]
So, do you REALLY want peace and love? You will not get it unless … :
37 – “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets
. and stones those who are sent to her! …
39 – for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say,
. ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
[Matthew 23, Holy Bible]
It’s that simple. And that hard.
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mwp72
Dec. 18, 2012 at 1:02amIn the Bible God said he will not suffer with man always. God said his people die all the day long for lack of understanding. God is waiting on us not us on him for our eyes to be open to see what we live in here. This is a place of sickness,sin, burdens, and death. God said if u love your life u will lose it. U must come to hate your life to find it. When will we get sick enough of all the death,sickness,and evil of this word and turn to God and pray to be delivered from this. We better wake up. When Jesus died on the cross he said he overcame death and hell so we may also overcome for the truth shall set u free.he is the way and the life. He made a way for us to enter his kingdom as we live not after we die. But we have to see the truth man has settle for death and the grave through a lie of the devil to keep us lulled asleep and to never come to the true life God made for us to have. You will not here the truth from the preachers they have taking a set and made a job out of preaching gods word and many have waxed rich. Once your eyes r open become like chapter12/2 in revelation.
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HellAndBack
Dec. 18, 2012 at 5:58amTrue there are those who would twist the Word of God and their Sins carry their own Consequences. However, as for Christ never Passing the plate… He was housed and fed by those who believed in Him. Tithing was meant to care for those who devote their lives to The Lord’s Service. TV is a costly endeavor and requires money… when SMART Christians Tithe to these Programs they are approving of the use of that Tithe as the Ministers see fit. Some are taken by Evil when the cash rolls in… They are only human. As for my church, I tithe to keep it open and warm and welcoming… and for the soup kitchen, aid for needy families, poor box, and all the other services we offer to our fellow man. It is a show of Love… If I were a farmer I would Tithe Beef, Fish, Wheat, or Cloth. But again, there is always one who will try (and sometimes succeed) to corrupt those Closest to Jesus. God is GOD and Only wants those who WANT Him. The Evil in the world makes bad things happen… God doesn’t. He gave us his Mind (The 10 Commandments), Body (Jesus), and Soul (The Holy Spirit)… what MORE can He give us before we give Him the Same in Return. Not to mention giving us all Existence. I can (by the Holy Spirit) answer any question… but only YOU can be willing to Hear. I could show you his hands at work… but You must be willing to see it. He could gift YOU with the Holy Spirit… but YOU must be willing to Receive Him. God Bless and Merry Christmas… Remember, Those Children are safe no
SP5Rob
Dec. 18, 2012 at 9:52amThere are several things that seem to be overlooked or forgotten. First in Rev 12:7-9 it talkes about war in Heaven. The devil lost, and is a sore looser and still continues the war today, even though he has lost. John 10:10 says the thief ( the devil) comes to steal, kill and destroy. The end of the verse says that Jesus has come to give life abundantly, to the full! Finally, 2 Corinth 1:3-4 says that God is the God of all comfort. Who comforts us in all our troubles, so that WE can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have recieved from God. How can we say I know how you feel when we have not gone through what they are going through? But when we have gone through something, and been healed and come out on the other side, we know exactly how a person would feel in the same problem because we have been there and done that and have the T shirt. To make us REALLY UNDERSTAND how loving God is, we have to go through trials. He said that He would NEVER leave us or forsake us. And He won’t! It is us that walk away from Him.
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LightOnAHill
Dec. 18, 2012 at 12:31pmTo hold a meeting, you need a facility… to give to the poor and support the community, you need means. To share the message, you need money for rent, food, transportation, tracts, and service providers. Paying tithing (10% of my gross) has never interfered with my personal finances and my church does not give it to support the ministry.
As to suffering, God allows it because He also provided a means of healing. When one suffers and then prospers one is more inclined to help another and know what can and should be done. The pain is soothed and subsides while the compassion remains. Can you think of a better way to teach compassion and godliness?
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todd147
Dec. 21, 2012 at 12:47pm@Jerk
Your right in one sense. Far to many of the Church Leadership does put an awful lot of pressure on there congregations to give. I’ve heard it all. From Pastors jumping up and down and swinging there sports jackets to well intention pastors dedicating much of there sermons to tithing and giving. So much to the point my wife and I got up and walked out several times. The fact is, all the wealth on earth is God’s. Tithing is never required in the new testament. Giving is certainly taught and there is a vast difference. Tithing was required under the Old Testament Law for practical and obedient means. Jesus taught something very different. Give unto Caesar what is his and unto God what is His. He used a coin to make the analogy and who’s image was engraved on it. When we get save God’s image is engraved on us, and he wants all of it. That does not mean we have to put our pay checks in the bucket when it comes by, but that we be obedient when we felt led to give. It’s funny how so many, and I would dare to say the vast majority of Evangelical Pastors teach tithing and giving as required in our time. They pick one part of the law to carry over from the Old Testament. And it’s the only one that involves money. I say if you want to live under the law, live under the whole law, not just the ones that suit your financial purposes.
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urrybr
Dec. 26, 2012 at 9:38pm@The Jerk: God did require the tithing of his people, Malachi, “Will a man rob God, yet ye say wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings . . . ” Christ DID mention offerings and tithes when he pointed the widow out, giving her mite. As has been said, offerings are not necessarily made when we enjoy abundance, but also in our poverty. It requires faith to give tithes and offerings to God, and that is why we pay it.
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mcgyver99
Jan. 21, 2013 at 10:15pm@THE_JERK, Jesus did say to Peter I believe, “Render unto Cesare what is Cesares and render unto God what is Gods”
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Pastor Melissa
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:30pmYou could ask a female clergy a question every once in awhile.
Biblically, Mary ‘preached’ the first sermon at the resurrection.
The woman at the well was an evangelist.
Jesus allowed Mary, sister of Martha, out of the kitchen.
There are some very intelligent, theologically sound women out there. Diversify some please.
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copatriots
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:38pmReally??? This is your issue today. Wow……way to focus on your agenda and NOT on God, the message in this article or the tragedy itself. Wow.
You are free to express yourself here in the comments, Girl. From a female who has been faithfully studying the Bible for many years now……
While I am a student under many, many female Biblical scholars, my preference is to be pastored by men. For what it’s worth, the twelve disciples were men, the heads of the families of the twelve tribes were men, most of the kings of Israel and Judah were men, the New Testament was written entirely by men. I humbly recommend you submit to God’s authority and structure He clearly outlined.
And from my human perspective……get over yourself.
I will now go repent and pray for forgiveness.
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hillbillyinny
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:40pmPersonal agenda?
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hatchetjob
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:48pmPASTOR??? Go away.
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hatchetjob
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:51pmCOPATRIOTS, Men should do the preaching, not women.
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copatriots
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:02pm“Pastoring” and “preaching” are two distinctly different things, HATCHET. I agree that “pastoring” should be done by men……notably when men are in the audience……to the degree possible. I believe that pastoring can be done by women to women and children. In Tajikstan, for example, there are not many men at all…. much less in the role of a Pastor.
Preaching on the other hand CAN and SHOULD be done by anyone God calls. One of my favorite teachers, Beth Moore, demonstrated this beautifully when she preached to an audience of men and women. She began by humbly submitting herself first to God, second to her husband and third to the authority of the male church leaders to whom she delivered her teaching.
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Locked
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:37pm“There are some very intelligent, theologically sound women out there.”
There certainly are. Paul says they shouldn’t be pastors.
I mean, you don’t have to believe in Paul’s teachings or the Bible, but that’s your choice. I see plenty of Christians being hypocritical when it comes to the New Testament. Allowing divorce and remarriage comes to mind, for example.
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4truth2all
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:46pmYo Copatriots:
I don’t think forgiveness is necessary
My advice is simple and this ( not that your post needs it)… what the scriptures say … do it. Opinion is not necessary, understanding is … mostly, I wanted to wish you a joyous Holiday season. Peace and blessings those that love Him.
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copatriots
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:25pm@ 4TRUTH
Thank you. I worry what our culture has become/is becoming as we feminize boys while raising girls to not need men in any way. It saddens me to see that agenda worming itself into the church.
Peace and blessings to you and yours as well! And have a very Merry Christmas!
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AntonW
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:29pmPeople who believe in Divine Providence must be wondering how God failed to intervene and save these little children.
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AllLost
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:37pmAccording to the Bible man rebelled against God choosing his own way over God’s way. The problem of free will. To prevent suffering caused by man God would have to eliminate free will.
I have more of a problem with natural disaster pain than man made pain. There I don’t see where free will has anything to do with the suffering.
A curse is a curse I guess
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HOOT_OWL
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:42pmPeople need to read the book of JOB. Here’s part of it.
JOB 40: 1-14
1The Lord said to Job:
2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3Then Job answered the Lord:
4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
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sophie02
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:19pmBut God DID intervene. Otherwise there would have been more death. God did not do this evil act, but he stopped it before more innocents were murdered by this messenger of Satan.
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Tractorboy
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:18pmThe “Mystery of tragedy” a couple or three four years ago we had a plane go down near us, 51 souls were lost, I could never do justice to try to explain how God works on this matter, ultimately nobody can……..here is a link to the what our pastor had to said, it is a bit long but he does tell the story of Job in it, I hope it sheds some light and brings some comfort and some understanding to these sort of things. God Bless friends
http://videos.sorensonmedia.com/The+Chapel+at+CrossPoint/2009-02-22/dcb86946ma604V4163r9637X3db91ec5421a
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rlpj
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:00pmGod did not intervene to save these innocents because, quite frankly (and bluntly), that’s not His job. When God created the earth He gave it over to mankind to subdue and administer it (see Genesis 1:28-30, Psalms 8:4-8, Psalms 115:16, and Hebrews 2:6-8). At the time that He gave it over to us the earth was a paradise and everything was perfect – running it according to His instructions would have been a joy and a piece of cake. But we rejected Him and His ways and told Him to **** out of our lives, insisting that we could run things better our own selfish way – and look at the results. We rejected him in the garden, we rejected his prophets of old, we rejected Him when He walked among us, and even now we reject Him and everything He stands for by throwing Him out of our government, our culture, our schools, and our lives. Does it surprise anyone that God eventually gets the message and chooses to bow out?
If there is anyone to blame, it is ourselves, for God will not do for us what he has so clearly given us the responsibility to do – that is governing this world. The mess that we have created by ignoring His instructions is ours and ours alone, and it is only by turning back to Him that healing and restoration can even begin.
2 Chronicles 7:14
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TheCalmOne
Dec. 17, 2012 at 5:36pmI get the whole free will argument (I don’t agree with it but understand how it works) – but… The 2004 tsunami killed over 230,000 people in 14 countries.
230,000 people, of all faiths and ages.
I cannot understand how anyone could continue to believe in an omnipresent (and omniscient), all-loving God, knowing this.
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woody4_rom828
Dec. 18, 2012 at 4:16amScripture tells these things:
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you
too will all perish.”
I think the point is not to marvel at why these people had to die this way (suffering or accident or natural disaster), rather marvel that we are still alive. Therefore, what we need to do first and foremost is accept by faith God’s free gift of Christ’s love and forgiveness, and repent of our sins and return to Him. Then you will be able to truly say, “Death where is thy sting, or grave where is thy victory?”
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sinner-saint
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:29pmThe answer is quite simple as to why God allows hurt/pain/suffering. It is because He gave us a free will to choose. God doesn’t make us obey Him. He doesn’t try to control us. His Word to us is good and never changes. He allows to make our own choices in life….bad or good. he gives us freedom and to give us freedom, it takes the greatist love one can give to another – unconditional love….the kind of love that says “no matter what you do or say, I will always love you” He allows hurt/pain/suffering so we will learn to make the right decisions in life…so we hopefully don’t keep making the wrong decisions in life.
In short, one must love a person enough to allow them to make mistakes……so they and others will hopefully learn from those mistakes and not repeat them. Insanity rules most people in world now. They keep making the same mistakes time and time again – expecting different results. The school shooting…..just the same old mistakes repeated is all. how many times does this type od situation have to occur? Until the problem is succeffully resolved. We live in a world of very sick insane people now. They keep making the same mistakes over and over again. They refuse to change their behavior and as a result, they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. The people are lost….they are very sick and don’t realize just how sick they really are. Nobody can help them – not even God Himself. They refuse to listen to God.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:06pmAnd what of the children starving in destitution throughout the world from drought? What of the innocent babies and children killed by natural disasters? What did man do to cause these storms or the environmental conditions that favor drought over agriculture? The tsnuami in 2004? Katrina? Where did man’s free will come into play with these phenomena? Or… are these simply naturally occuring phenomena that have no malice or grand intent behind them?
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mandmsgirl
Dec. 18, 2012 at 5:58pm@Sinner-Saint…very well said
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HOOT_OWL
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:27pmWho are we to ask God why he does anything.
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:42pmJames T. Kirk: [to "God"] Excuse me… I just wanted to ask a question. What does God need with a starship?
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TROLLMONGER
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:39pmThats it. Just blindly follow and never question anything. Slaves are made in such ways.
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john vincent
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:46pmtroll-
where where you when God spoke the galaxies into existence? I think it may be better if you answered to Him, than expect He should cater to your myopic views.
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pantokrator
Dec. 17, 2012 at 8:38pmUnfortunately, Troll, he’s right. Assuming the God of the Bible is true, He is above us, His mind is greater than ours, and as the creation, we cannot begin to fathom the entirety of His mind, and we have no place in questioning God’s will. It is a stubborn pride in yourself, which is false, imperfect and limited that causes such rebellion such as yours. You have to let it go, and understand that you are not the center of the world. All that happens in this world is not about you, or I, but about a greater plan.
People like to say that following your own heart is the best advice, but based on my understanding, our hearts are evil, wicked tools of deception that, if trusted, lead us to a dark path. That is what happened when this kid shot up this school, and it is what happens when suffering is caused in the world. I couldn’t tell you how many times my heart has led me to do the wrong thing, and only following the example of Jesus Christ have I done any kind of good. I do question certain things, such as the allowance of evil, but as another mere vessel of limited thought myself, I don’t think I will ever know the answers.
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Remember_Benghazi
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:24pmEither god is not all-powerful, not wholly good or not real.
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hillbillyinny
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:32pmBased on your premise, Bengazi can’t be answered, it is just the non-good in the world doing what they WANTED TO DO! No morality there, so no answers to follow. . .
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hillbillyinny
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:33pmGod IS wholly God.
We, however, are not–chose that in the very beginning we did!
God’s perfection will return at the end of time, and those who have made the right choice will participate in it for eternity.
Choose well. . .
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GhostOfJefferson
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:34pmFalse paradigm.
It’s stated right up front that this is a testing ground. You have free will to choose good or sin, assuming the choice is available. If you look at the span of human life when compared to infinity, time on earth (assuming a heaven) would amount to such an infinitesimally small percentage as to be beyond negligible.
With free will and the ability to choose good or sin, comes a neutral environment which allows those choices. That neutral environment means that those who choose evil, and thus sin, will have a free hand to do so, such that after they die they stand before judgement and get cast into hell (assuming no later born again salvation). When they commit sin, people can and do get hurt or die.
God allows pain for the same reason the master blacksmith allows heat in the forge, that is, in order to create the best blade possible, free of defect (sin).
Where people come to the notion that Earth was supposed to be this pain free zone where everybody was fluffy bunny happy is beyond me. Man blew that in the Garden of Eden. This is basic Biblical fact.
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hatchetjob
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:46pmRight on, GHOSTOFJEFFERSON, If we choose to sin, we choose to suffer. I enjoyed reading your comment.
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GhostOfJefferson
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:03pm@Hatchet
Thanks. :)
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Remember_Benghazi
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:29pmIt’s not a false paradigm. Divine intervention of a benevolent god is the basis for all monotheisms. God intervened for the good of all of us, on many occasions, if you believe the Bible. Beside the moral implications of allowing innocents to die, why would he stop this pattern of intervention ever since people could write and videotape evidence?
Also, if God has a plan for all of us, who are you to ask him to change it through prayer? He knows what’s best, not you. If you’re on a path of some divine plan, God, as a supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent being, knows what you are going to do at every stage of your life, even before you were born. He could condemn you to sin and eternal torture before your very creation and it would all be part of the plan. This is apparently what he does to gays, non-Christians, and most ironically the wrong kind of Christians. Who wants this to be true? To be created sick and condemned to eternal punishment is bad enough. But then you are told that God loves you and you must praise Him for sending you to Hell, when he could have done otherwise. These are wicked teachings.
But, suppose God is as you say He is. Are you morally ok with the idea that you are passively condemning the billions of non-Christian souls past, present and future to eternal punishment for the thoughtcrime of unbelief? This seems rather petty for an all-loving God. God’s unconditional love is quite conditional. Believe or suffer, seems to be the message.
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GhostOfJefferson
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:48pm“It’s not a false paradigm. ”
Yes, it is.
“Divine intervention of a benevolent god is the basis for all monotheisms.”
Divine intervention presumes a state where Divinity is normally letting matters proceed as they may. The moral implications of allowing people to die, to God, are up to Him and Him alone. You, nor I, nor anybody, really knows His mind or plan for each one of us. For all you know, innocents are rewarded for their *brief* time on earth.
“why would he stop this pattern of intervention ever since people could write and videotape evidence?”
Why would he have to act as you think He should? Maybe it’s to test your faith.
“Also, if God has a plan for all of us, who are you to ask him to change it through prayer? ”
I only mention free will. The plan is free will. That’s the plan. You have free will to petition for help, just as you have free will to not.
“Who wants this to be true?”
What you, I or anybody else wants or thinks is fair, is irrelevant. You’re creating a strawman “God” that must abide by earthly rules and then chastising Him for not doing so.
“Believe or suffer, seems to be the message.”
Why yes, it is the message. You don’t get to dictate otherwise to God I’m afraid. Everything you say could be reversed tomorrow. Your view is, by definition, imperfect, cast with imperfect knowledge and imperfect reasoning. You are free to believe, or not, as you wish. God ain’t about participation trophie
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JRook
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:53pm@GhostOfJefferson Let’s be clear that any assertion regarding “biblical fact” is questionable given the Council of Nicaea compilation and editing of the text that is now referred to as the bible. It is similarly important to note that the majority of what is referred to as God’s law is contained in the Old Testament. At the end of the day you are left with your personal faith and it is best keep that way. The very notion that God and his word is only identified with the Jewish and Christian faiths and thus Buddhist’s and Hindu’s are without God or his enlightenment is just plain arrogance. That is of course assuming there is a God of the form we reference and speak of. More reasonable is a realization that there is some higher energy or force in the universe (call it God) that we have no concept of and if it were revealed to us could not possibly understand. And at the end of the day the notion that the killing of innocent victims in war time (Hanoi or Baghdad bombings are examples) is anymore justified or understandable than the random acts of a disturbed individual is laughable. In fact given that they are planned and carried out by seemingly rational people makes them far, far worse.
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VRW Conspirator
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:32pmRemember
Where is it better to be…on Earth with the temptation of sin and having to also deal with the sin of others or with your Heavenly Father in constant joy, happiness, and peace, never to know the tragedy of evil and violence and pain?
For those children, they are innocent and they are now with their Heavenly Father and will know no pain for all eternity nor will they remember the hurt caused them by another of God’s children nor will they experience a sense of loss from being away from their family and friends. One day in our future they will be reunited with all their family and to them it will have been a blink of an eye, even if for us it was decades of feeling the loss.
But rejoice, for once they are reunited with their lost child and sibling, those family members will also forget the pain and suffering and know eternal love, joy, and peace.
Read the Bible…I don’t recall any passage from the Old or the New Testament that says life on Earth will be easy, pain free, or without hardship. In fact I tend to remember passages that always say it will be full of pain and suffering and hardship, in both the Old and New Testament. Jesus might have come in love but even he spoke of having to forgive those that hurt you and are enemies.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:23pm@GHOST OF JEFFERSON
“The moral implications of allowing people to die, to God, are up to Him and Him alone. You, nor I, nor anybody, really knows His mind or plan for each one of us. For all you know, innocents are rewarded for their *brief* time on earth.” — This ‘up to God’ thing appears extremely convenient for Christians and other theists. It’s an easy way to excuse Him for killing arguably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of babies and children in the deluge, or for commanding David to kill men, women and children despite giving the Hebrews a commandment to not kill. But you stipulate that He has a plan for each of us. For some 6,300 children or so, per day, that plan is to die in agonizing misery from starvation. You’ll justify that because He says He’s justified? Hmm… “Thou shalt not kill,” sounds a lot like “Do as I say, not as I do.”
“Why would he have to act as you think He should? Maybe it’s to test your faith.” — Or maybe it’s to see just how gullible, and willing people are to let a small group of people control them through the fear of eternal punishment.
“I only mention free will. The plan is free will. That’s the plan. You have free will to petition for help, just as you have free will to not.” — Sir, God needed sin to necessitate a Messiah. Thus, He designed Sin as well. Free will is a joke from the religious standpoint. It precludes the possibility of God’s omniscience, and there’s enough versus about predestination,
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Remember_Benghazi
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:20pm@Jefferson
You freely admit that there are conditions for His unconditional love, namely to believe in Him and to totally submit to his authority. You admit that the message of “obey or suffer” is the standard on which He decides who is eternally rewarded or eternally punished. If we have free will and God gave us free will, why does He have any condition on how to use this supposed gift? I argue that It’s not free will if He imposes His unchallengeable authority on how we use it. It is the illusion of free will. It’s divine blackmail. He is condemning billions of people to eternal punishment if they don’t use their intellect and free will, which He supposedly endowed onto them, in His pre-approved method. This is not free will, this is a divine dictatorship.
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reality_check
Jan. 2, 2013 at 11:33pmSo is secular humanism. In fact secular humanism genocides dwarfs anything comitted in the name of religion by multiple degrees.
And the Bible itself makes the claim that evil men will use and twist anything to fulfil their evil desires. So your point is a non sequitur.
http://www.christianaction.org.za/firearmnews/2004-04_thegreatestkiller.htm
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BubbaCoop
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:22pmhttp://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/hcalg/
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Ront398675
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:22pmJust a thought, I recently downloaded an app to my phone to check my hearing. I was amazed at the the range of hearing I have lost. I am 64 years old and now and realize that our children live in a different world than we do. A would of sounds, words and messages we can’t hear. Do you think there could be some people that would take advantage of our children that way? My reason for right this is I reflect back to the picture of James Holmes, Aurora, Colorado Batman shooter that was printed in every news paper around the world. By the way I have tried a quick Google search to find the photo, it does not seen to be around. I’m not saying it can’t be found it’s just that I didn’t find it. Sure there are many photos of him with his orange hair however they all portray him as a lucid person. The one I was looking for was the one right after he was captured. If you saw this photo you will know it was not any of the ones your looking at. Here is a little trick you can use (look at the photos here and make exactly the same face as the ones in each of the photos. You will be feeling what he was feeling at the time of each photo. The photo that went around the world was not this.
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:21pmThis only makes sense if you believe that God is a puppet master, controlling your every action. However, if that was the case you cannot be held accountable for actions that were dictated by an outside omnipotent force. There cannot be life without death, joy without pain, happiness without sorrow, hot without cold, good without evil. Pain is a perception, a choice of a rational and sentient being.
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ZAP
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:16pmThe first thing people want to do is blame God, when tragedy incurs.There are other forces involved that never seems to get any blame. But in the end we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. There lies faith,hope, and love and the promise of eternal life….
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copatriots
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:28pmWell said, ZAP.
Let’s place blame precisely at it’s source. It was Satan (who we seem to never want to admit exists) and one person’s free will to choose to do good or evil.
For those unaware who may need this in the future, only God’s Word is the means to protect oneself against Satan’s attacks.
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TheCalmOne
Dec. 17, 2012 at 5:40pmSatan is more powerful than God? One person and their free will is more powerful than God?
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WhiteFang
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:12pmPeople of various religions have gone to their religious leaders and teachers to ask why there is so much suffering. Often, the response is that suffering is God’s will and that he long ago determined everything that would ever happen, including tragic events. Many are told that God’s ways are mysterious or that he brings death upon people—even children—so that he can have them in heaven with him. As you have learned, though, Jehovah God never causes what is bad. The Bible says: “Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!”—Job 34:10.
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girlnurse
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:27pmIsaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, “He did not make me”? Can the pot say of the potter, “He knows nothing”?
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DeavonReye
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:28pmSo, the “almighty”, . . . though he could stop trajedy, . . . gets a pass because . . . ? How about we look at that verse you mentioned. ‘He’ didn’t act at all, in this case. So if he DID act, it was justly [in other words, his judgment was for the action of the killer]. Right?
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WhiteFang
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:52pmDo you know why people make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world? In many cases, they blame Almighty God because they think that he is the real ruler of this world. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil.
The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)
When you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
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WhiteFang
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:03pmAnother reason why there is so much suffering is that, mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9)
And the reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11)
Also in a world without Jehovah God as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Everyone groans today over this evil act by a wicked man. May our God give some comfort to these dear parents who are in such pain of heart.
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hatchetjob
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:04pmWHITEFANG, Correct, and fortunately the devil will not rule forever. His time is short and growing shorter everyday.
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WhiteFang
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:30pmhatchetjob,
You are right about that. All of us should keep praying for God’s name to be sanctified and for His Kingdom to come. – Matthew 6:9-10
We are almost there!
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DeavonReye
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:43pmSo if this world can only operate under “the god of this world, Satan”, then of what use it is to “pray for protection”? If “Satan is the ruler of the world”, then is your god powerless against him? If so, then “Satan” can’t be the ruler if your god supersedes him.
I am well aware of the christian response to trajedies like this. I was in the faith for many years. But if “he is lord”, then that would trump any “rule” of a lower being. If it doesn’t, then “he isn’t lord” at all.
I say that for the sake of argument that your religion/god is actually true.
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:46pm@WhiteFang
That sounded like it came right out of the Watchtower, lol
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:58pm@WHITEFANG
[palm in face] you are loosing this debate big time, and its a direct result of the Watchtower Theology your trying to defend. Let me take over from here
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:14pm@DEVONREYE
I will reply to this statement:
“So, the “almighty”, . . . though he could stop trajedy, . . . gets a pass because . . . ? ”
At its core, we are all dealing with an “ETHICAL QUESTION” that being: Why does God allow evil?
The reality is that killing IS a reality, death IS, suffering IS.
At the same time, Christians also hold to the reality of God. [God IS]
First things first, the fact that Suffering IS, and Death IS has nothing to do with the existance of God. So we can deduce this from the equation.
You just like Whitefang are dealing with the ETHICS surrounding the nature of God. [IS God Good since he allows suffering?]
Well that depends on how you define “Good” in the first place. As Christians, our MORAL starting point begins with God. In other words, God IS the essence of Good, he is the standard for Good. [God does not conform to an external law of goodness] Anything that falls short of God and his holiness is by definition FALLEN/SIN/NOT GOOD.
God has creative authorship over his creation. If he by his Holy standard decides to destroy the entire city of Sodom and Gomorah, he will. Because God knows the moral universe better then you or I.
If God allows man to carry out the desires of his sinful heart, all he has to do is lift his hand of restraint and allow man to carry out his evil deed.
If anything, this demostrates mankinds NEED for a savior. A need for God over himself. Obviousaly you will have alot to respond to
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:40pm@DeavonReye
**As a side note, please make note that WHITEFANG’s opinions do not represent Biblical Christianity, his theological worldview centers around the Jehovah’s Witnesses which is a secular branch of Christianity. This is important for me to note because thier view on the nature of God stands in stark contrast to Biblical orthadoxy.
1-They believe Jesus to be “a god” [they believe in the existance of two god's, but only one Almight God Jehovah]
2- they believe that thier religious organization functions as the sole Oracle of God on earth, and thier leaders represent a “Spiritual Mother” or mediator between mankind and Jesus.
these are just two examples that I bring to the forefront for people to consider when reading his posts.
This is nothing against WHITEFANG personally, but I believe its important to put all the cards on the table if were going to have an honest theological discussion on such an important topic like this.**
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Old Truckers
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:42pmTheCalvinistEdiot,
Nearly every comment you make is filled with a contrary stance, an approach based on opposing someone with a condescending statement. Here you said “Let me take over from here”. You are one arrogant man and if Whitefang chooses to respond to your foolishness, I will be disappointed. You get no respect from me.
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 2:47pm@OLD TRUCKERS
“Nearly every comment you make is filled with a contrary stance”
ok, allow me to clarify, or retract a statement. Can you please identify which staments I made are contrary?
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:00pm@OLD TRUCKERS
“Here you said “Let me take over from here”. You are one arrogant man and if Whitefang chooses to respond to your foolishness, I will be disappointed. You get no respect from me.”
You are right, that might have come across as a little condesending and brash. I apoligize to WHITE FANG.
Allow me to explain, this was not a personal attack on WHITEFANG himself, but his theology. He is a Jehovah’s Witness. My frustration was more or less directed at the Watchtower Society [Jehovah's Witness organization] of which, I used to be apart of.
Since I no longer believe in that religion, the religion dictates that all of my friends and family now shun me. needless to say, I am frustrated at the Watchtower doctrines themselves and thier ability to deceive.
I do not have anything against WHITE FANG, I view him as a victim of the WT.
I hope that clarifies things. God Bless
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YellowFin
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:17pmCalvinist,
So you were disciplined for some wrong-doing and instead of repenting, you attack those who gave you the discipline. I
A man repeatedly reproved but making his neck hard will suddenly be broken, and that without healing. (Proverbs 29:1)
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YellowFin
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:25pmCalvinist,
Did Whitefang give unscriptural information on the subject of why God would allow pain and suffering?
If he did not, if he gave accurate information on the subject, then what is your problem?
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DeavonReye
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:09pmTheCalvinistPastor, I’m not interested in the subjective morality of the biblical god, nor do I “struggle with the ethical question of why god would allow suffering”. I only post a counter to those who DO believe it.
I see no evidence of an active god at work on any level on this planet. This planet is filled with varying levels of “good” and “evil”. What happened on Friday was a result of a very sick mind who [MOST unfortunately] gained access to his mother’s firearm collection. It was pointless. It makes no sense. I see no reason for humans to “try to figure out what a god is doing, or what is being or not being allowed”. It is just a coping mechanism that some humans need. No harm there, I guess. I just wish people would apply a bit of logic.
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:19pm@YellowFin
“So you were disciplined for some wrong-doing and instead of repenting, you attack those who gave you the discipline”
I did leave the watchtower, I did repent of my wrongdoing [as should everybody since we are all sinners] I embrace the grace of Jesus Christ and yes I attack the false Doctrines of the Watchtower.
In like manner Paul also rebukes false teachers that spread false doctrines in the christian congregation. I see nothing biblically wrong with this, I actually see it as an obligation.
“Did Whitefang give unscriptural information on the subject of why God would allow pain and suffering?”
I am not correcting anything “WRONG” that WHITEFANG said, I am simply pointing out that he is not answering the question. His entire response is simply a red harring to the original question of “Why God Allows suffering”
He gave us a reason FOR suffering, [Satan being in control] but did not answer the heart of what is being asked… WHY
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:38pm@DEVONREYE
No problem, I will be happy to honestly engage with you on this subject.
” I’m not interested in the subjective morality of the biblical god, nor do I “struggle with the ethical question of why god would allow suffering”. I only post a counter to those who DO believe it. ”
Couple of things to address here. you said “Subjective Morality” when speaking about the biblical God. What do you believe the basis for morality is? if so, is it subjective or objective?
“I see no evidence of an active god at work on any level on this planet. This planet is filled with varying levels of “good” and “evil”
ok, you have asserted that there is a contrast between varying levels of Good and Evil. Can you define them both? [what do you mean by Good and Evil]
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Greenwood
Dec. 17, 2012 at 5:57pmCalvinist………….”He gave us a reason FOR suffering, [Satan being in control] but did not answer the heart of what is being asked… WHY”
If you were one of Jehovah’s witnessess then you should know the answer. It has to do with the fact that Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty. Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect they sais: We don’t need Jehovah as our ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. Getting rid of the rebels would not have settled the issue raised.Human rule has shown to be a failure and allowing time to pass has been necessary. If God were to help He would be supporting the case of the rebels.The effect of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus, and death by means of a resurrection. God will thus use Jesus “to break up the works of the devil” (1John 3:8) It sounds like you are an apostate from the tone of your posts….. you sound very angry too.
Whitefang is right unless you can show otherwise.
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 17, 2012 at 6:13pm@Greenwood
let me again reiterate, white fang did not answer the question of WHY God ALLOWS suffering.
Thats the central point. I know the standard responses the WT gives through your post and through Whitefangs. Again I do not disagree inherently with his presentation, i do disagree with the answer he provided since it does not respond to the question being posed. Whew.
Ok, second of all. Yes I am frustrated with the Watchtower. Angry, no. Im not. I have a youtube channel which has a track record of 3 years online doing videos. I will appeal to those as a standard of my temperment. I am very secure in my faith. I love Jehovah’s Witnesses, I talk to them everyday.
On the other hand I strongly disagree with the Watchtower and am very passionate about my contentions with the Soceity itself. I believe they manipulate honesthearted people, they deceive, and take advantage of people. Its always organization over Truth.
Thats a topic of another discussion :)
http://www.youtube.com/bibl3thumper
http://www.contextministries.org
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4truth2all
Dec. 17, 2012 at 6:34pmYo Calvinst:
Do you realize that it is JW’s that you are speaking with … I like all these posters, but certainly agree with the untruthful teaching, although many times they are correct and usually respectful.
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Greenwood
Dec. 17, 2012 at 7:17pmLike Job our integrity is being challenged Job 27:5
Job 2:4 Satan said…….”Everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.”
Proverbs 27:11 where Jehovah says “Be wise my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.”
Satan has called into question your integrity to God and would like to see you disobey God and abandon a righteous course when difficulties arise.
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Greenwood
Dec. 17, 2012 at 7:32pm@CALVINIST……………”let me again reiterate, white fang did not answer the question of WHY God ALLOWS suffering.”
I think he did but it’s just not registering. Maybe because you have hardened your heart. I don’t know You figure it out in meditation and prayer.
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Greenwood
Dec. 17, 2012 at 7:43pm@4TRUTH……….”the untruthful teaching” can yiu give an example of untruthful teaching?
We should have truth 2 all…………………
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WhiteFang
Dec. 17, 2012 at 8:06pmGreenwood,
My brother, sometimes it is best to disengage from opposer’s.
62 With that the high priest stood up and said to him: “Have you no answer? What is it these are testifying against you?” 63 But Jesus kept silent….. – Matthew 26:62
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Greenwood
Dec. 17, 2012 at 8:27pm@WHITEFANG…………………Thank you, you are right. Just like Matthew 10:14 when they don’t listen to your words……… shake the dust off your feet. Good to hear from you again :-)
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 18, 2012 at 10:48amnice messiah complex:
Somebody disagres with me = Im persecuted
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L.B.Stephens
Dec. 18, 2012 at 11:26amTheCalvinistPastor – Somebody disagres with me = Im persecuted
You are not persecuted because somebody disagrees with you, they just do not want to talk to you. That’s all, nothing more than that.
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TheCalvinistPastor
Dec. 18, 2012 at 6:10pm@L.B.Stephens
Oh my word, im not saying IM persecuted. I am asserting that this is what THEY believe about themselves. Use the victim card to avoid any intelligable discussion.
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Bearfoot
Dec. 18, 2012 at 8:05pmL.B.Stephens,
Oh my word, this is hilarious :-)
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VTPatriot
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:11pmFirst, please know I’m not a biblical scholar nor am I currently a person of deep faith, but I do believe in God. I do take serious issue, though, with the whole angle of “Why does God allow”. The narrative that “it’s God’s plan” when something like this happens. I honestly can’t believe that God would want to cause so much pain and suffering. Why can’t it simply be that sometimes evil/Satan wins. For me, that’s a whole lot more reassuring and conducive, for me at least, to believing in a higher power of good. Because if it’s the former, I don’t want to believe in a God that would ever let something like this happen.
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sinner-saint
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:36pmRead the Bible. God has destroyed cities of people out of love for His People. He is a jealous God and an vengeful God too.
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DavidZion
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:10pmUmmmm Bonnie Blue. You can’t “vanquish God” it was Man that was booted from Eden not God.
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AntonW
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:38pmThat was a fable, not factual history.
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:03pm@Anton, It could very well be metaphorical history. To deny that possibility is to be just as dogmatic as those that take the literal words as truth without descriptive poetry.
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searcher619
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:10pmPain and suffering are teachers. People seem to think our purpose here is to just live. To simply exist. We as a species do not thrive unless we are challenged.
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Pontiaku
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:58pm“Pain and suffering are teachers.”
…What did those murdered kids learn?
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ResistSocialism
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:09pmThat’s like asking when Jesus will return and rule the earth and there will be no pain or suffering
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Locked
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:09pm“Why does God allow pain and suffering?”
Because living a Christian life and following God’s commands promises an eternity of everlasting life… but makes no promises for this one. Why do bad things happen? Because of humans with free will. Without free will we cannot choose to love God; without the choice of love, it’s simply blind obedience. That’s not love. Sure, one might argue “love me or no heaven for you!” is the same thing; but it’s our choice, not God’s, to make or not make.
The price for freedom is suffering.
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StandingDespiteTheStorms
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:06pmPeace on Earth and Good will to men. God is not dead nor does He sleep.
May His light overtake darkness. May His Church arise and His Saints
multiply. In our despair, may we turn to Him and not against one another.
May this song/video give us ALL hope.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7670CXvPX0
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TIME_2_END_THE_PAUL_CAMPAIGN_IN_12
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:05pmFrom a post I made yesterday…
Why does God allow us to suffer? If a bad person suffers, we as humans find some justice in this… but an innocent child? In all these questions we must look to the cross and the resurrection. Jesus did not deserve to be crucified. He’d done nothing wrong. So I guess it would be true to say that the crucifixion was ‘unfair’! But he understood that God had a plan. His suffering brought about our redemption. There was a greater purpose that wasn’t understood until after the resurrection. As is it is for our suffering in this life… we don’t know why we have to suffer most of the time. It does seem desperately unfair. And we will only know the answers once we reach our eternal life in Heaven. All we can be assured of is that our life, suffering and death are things that are passing. Our life here on earth is only temporary… death is not the end. Through Jesus’ resurrection we have been assured of eternal life after death.
The reality is that even with Jesus’ cross and resurrection, losing a child seems to make very little sense. But without Jesus’ cross and resurrection, it makes no sense at all.
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HKS
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:05pmGod doesn’t allow or dis-allow anything. What he does do is allow you to place your own values on your life. If one see’s god as no value than that would speak as to your opinion of life.
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DeavonReye
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:19pmUh, so okay. . . that’s wrong.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:25pmDevon- you’re an agnostic, what is your authority on knowing God’s attitude on things?
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searcher619
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:28pmI don’t know if there is or isn’t a God but common sense tells you life is one trial after another. Life was never fair and we as a species do not do well when we re not challenged.
I went to Sunday school s a kid and remember having a very different interpretation of the whole Genesis story. To me it sounded like God created 2 slaves to tend his garden. He wanted them to be docile and ignorant. Then someone came along (serpent) and opened their eyes to their conditions. God got upset and kicked them out as a result. The God of the Christian bible has never struck me as a particularly loving or caring god. He/It comes across as insanely vain.
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HKS
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:42pmThe value one puts on life tends to increase the closer they come to loosing it or after it’s already lost. So as the people drive god from their daily lives, he is still usually the first words in out times of crisis and especially in despicable crisis.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:51pmsearcher- right because allowing people to roam free and do whatever they wish except eat from a tree is just like a slavemaster. He was just sooooo hard on Adam and Eve. Educate yourself please.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:37pm@DLV
“Devon- you’re an agnostic, what is your authority on knowing God’s attitude on things?”
Seriously? You have no idea what Deavon knows and doesn’t know, or what his personal history is with regards to faith and religion. I believe that Deavon, like me, spent a lot of time in prayer and study, but we had an empty experience. I don’t know about Deavon, but I went way, way, WAY beyond what most people do in my study of the word, and so when we discussed the parable of the master and talents, or prophecy, or the Pslams and Song of Solomon, I garnered a much deeper understanding of the verses, not just the words, but much broader ideas about what the author actually intended. Conversations like these make me wish I had kept up the study so I could better help those who are curious understand precisely how and why the Bible itself is what turned me against the notion of Jehovah, or any supreme being.
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DeavonReye
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:01pmDLV, I was responding to the following: “If one see’s god as no value than that would speak as to your opinion of life.” I have no idea why you felt the need to post what you did against me.
His statement was wrong! I have no god in my life, but live a moral life. As Chris illuded to, . . . I spent a LOT of time in study and research. . . as well as years in the church that proved ultimately empty. There was no “friend who stuck closer than a brother” [but only silence]. There was no “comforter promised” [but the same silence]. If there IS a god, . . . it must be one of THE most cold entities to ever exist.
In contrast, the field of science has given me FAR more than any supposed deity ever did. As for THIS story, I have no need to “understand why some deity allows such things to happen”. These events are ghastly. Random. Seemingly surreal. You deal with it and move on with your life and do what you can to keep it from happening.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:50pmdevon- His statement was wrong! I have no god in my life, but live a moral life. As Chris illuded to, . . . I spent a LOT of time in study and research. . . as well as years in the church that proved ultimately empty. There was no “friend who stuck closer than a brother” [but only silence]. There was no “comforter promised” [but the same silence].”
Let’s make something clear. You live by your morality or society’s morality. But the problem is society’s morality can change. It’s fickle to say the least. God’s morality isn’t. It’s objective and unchanging. That’s probably what HKS meant but I won’t speak for him. Btw, did you even read the article? There are plenty of theories on why God allows suffering to exist. C.S. Lewis The Problem of Pain helps to understand but ultimately we are left with a bit of mystery on our hands since we do not know God’s mind. I’m fine with that. I don’t challenge something that is infinite that I can’t even begin to comprehend how he works. We are very limited to a narrow point of view and we link one thing to another and say well there is suffering in the world so either God is evil or he doesn’t exist. EXTREMELY narrow minded. You can’t even begin to fathom the depths of God so don’t lecture him on morality. It’s like bringing an advanced piece of technology back Ancient Egypt and then explain to them how it works. They wouldn’t even begin to comprehend you. Cont.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:54pmAs for trying to pray and hearing silence, trust me you’re not alone. I have dealt with these issues before in fact, in the fantasy work I wrote recently for my Creative Writing fiction class, the main character has trouble with this. But you must understand, that just because you don’t hear anything and you get depressed and angry doesn’t make it okay to walk away. You need to do heavy thinking, research the bible, learn his wisdom etc etc. There are times I still want to walk away from the faith but God gives us trials to overcome. Silence can be among them and it can be the hardest. But a strong faith can overcome it. Jesus said “ye of little faith…” The disciples were a lot like you. Answer me now God or I leave! I want immediate answers! We are all insignificant specs in his eyes. Conform to him not him conform to you.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:58pmLastly, God gave us science. So it’s good you get a lot from it. I’m one of those people who believe that science and God get along well especially since he made it. It gives us an understanding of how this universe works. The only problem is atheists like to twist it and have it take the place of God so they can get all their answers from it. So while science is consistent and God gave it to us so we could understand the universe we live in, God is so much bigger. It’s not like we can keep studying and predict when he intervenes and why he does things. The bible gives us a tidbit on God but even that doesn’t reveal all of his character.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 5:03pmchris- Seriously? You have no idea what Deavon knows and doesn’t know, or what his personal history is with regards to faith and religion. I believe that Deavon, like me, spent a lot of time in prayer and study, but we had an empty experience. I don’t know about Deavon, but I went way, way, WAY beyond what most people do in my study of the word, and so when we discussed the parable of the master and talents, or prophecy, or the Pslams and Song of Solomon, I garnered a much deeper understanding of the verses, not just the words, but much broader ideas about what the author actually intended. Conversations like these make me wish I had kept up the study so I could better help those who are curious understand precisely how and why the Bible itself is what turned me against the notion of Jehovah, or any supreme being.
It’s good your knowledgeable about the bible. Nice job. But knowledge and wisdom are two different things. If you know a lot about the bible and really tried to learn about God, you would arrive at a different conclusion. You seem like a moderate agnostic so I’m happy to engage on discussion in this subject unlike moderationisbest or trollmonger but you have to take a deeper look on God’s actions and why he did what he did. Most importantly you need to understand that God’s actions a lot of the time are a mystery to us humans and we just need to accept that we won’t get a 100 percent of the answers now. That’s where faith comes in. Cont.
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 5:06pmThose with little faith will crumble and fall. Jesus spoke about these types of people in his parables. Christianity is faith based and unlike science not everything is here and now. Some of this we just need to accept that we won’t have all the answers.
As for the silence problem. Look at my answer to Devon. Lot’s of people have issues with this. Talk to Christians who have had trouble in this arena and how they deal with it. I know I have. This can be a trial that God allows to happen to see how strong our faith is in him.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 18, 2012 at 10:22am@DLV
“If you know a lot about the bible and really tried to learn about God, you would arrive at a different conclusion.” — Of course I would. If I had REALLY tried, then I would come to the same conclusions you have because obviously that’s the onlypossible conclusion. So I suppose the many hours in study (and by many, I mean about 40 per week, after working), devoting myself to learning ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek, studying ancient texts with Rabbis, Orthodox Christians, Catholic priests, reverends from 4 different sects within Christendom, the constant prayer (and I mean if I was awake, I was praying, even if silently and in my head), singing, praising, tithing, proselytizing, fasting (go 3 days without food or water, and then another 2 days on just water and talk to me about effort in bringing the flesh under subjection), the charity work (1,100 hours in one year, providing 66 tons of clothing, food, toys and books to 300 orphanages across the world)… No, I obviously didn’t try. The funny thing is that most of th Christians I personally know haven’t done half that much in a decade or two. I did it in 30 months, while working full time and being a husband and father to my family. But if I’d REALLY TRIED, then I would have had the same experience as you!
The sad thing was that I was proposing questions to scholarly men of God who ALWAYS ended up resorting to, “Well sometimes you just have to have faith.” Convenient. Continued…
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 18, 2012 at 10:49am@DLV – Continued…
And so I tried faith… like a grain of mustard seed. But someone like me comes back to some glaring inconsistencies, paradoxes and conundrums that God created and claimed. For example:
God tells us in Isaiah 45:7 that creates good and evil. This makes sense, if you understand the big picture of sin being a necessity to require a redeemer (Jesus). But it puts Christians (like me at the time) in an odd position: God created the very evil He threatens to punish us for eternity if we commit. God created Adam and Eve with an innate weakness to the temptations of the flesh. Then God sent the chief tempter in the universe (yes, sent…because how could the Devil get there if God didn’t allow it?) to these humans inherently weak to temptation. He knew they would fail, as He is omniscient. So it is more than plausible to posit that God set Adam and Eve up for failure. Arguing against this under the ‘free will’ nonsense is a joke. The deck was stacked against them by God’s design, so free will is a moot point. Then, to add insult to injury, he banishes them from the garden of eden and condemns ALL OF MANKIND for the actions of two people, like a liberal, who behaved precisely as He created them and intended for them to behave. Without their ‘sin’ there would be no need of a Messiah, so the Fall of man was planned, orchestrated and intended by God. Those clergymen couldn’t get around it, and neither can anyone else. Continued…
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 18, 2012 at 10:59am@DLV — Continued…
And so, how audacious of an entity to judge me for behaving in a manner consistent with how He designed me… to condemn me for the actions of others… to tell me and everyone else THOU SHALT NOT KILL, and then command His servants to go into towns and villages and kill every living thing, man, woman, child and beast… to make a racial preference in a covenant… to ask a man to kill his own son as a ‘test of faith’… we (including Christians) would call that INSANITY now, if a man went to trial for attempting to murder his child because ‘God told him to’… to sacrifice His son and lay the guilt and blame for his torturous murder on the hands of all mankind, and to maintain that we will spend eternity in unspeakable pain, misery, agony and torture if we reject Him, without any expirical proof whatsoever that He exists, or that Jesus was a supernatural being.
But He loves us… He loved us so much that He set us up from the beginning, He goes against His own commandments for us, He murders, He destroys, He allows the devil to play games with our lives, He allows tens of thousands of innocent children each year to starve to death and offers only eternal punishment if we don’t love Him for all this horror He’s bestowed on us…?
God is, by his own words, still subject to the basest forms of human weaknesses like jealousy, anger and rage, and this manifests in acts we would all consider completely reprehensible.
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DLV
Dec. 19, 2012 at 1:25amChris- In response to your first paragraph.
That isn’t the point I was making and you know it. I never doubted the study you may have done in the past or your possible devotion. You could spend every waking second in the bible and it still may not matter. Guess who else knows the bible perfectly? Satan. Think he is a Christian? No. As I stated there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Many atheists have “knowledge” of the bible. Knowledge can be acquired but for many wisdom can’t be. The problem here is that no matter how smart you are, if you do not open your heart to god, you’ll never get it. Jesus said himself, “with those who have ears to hear let them hear.” He also said his parables were meant to shut down those with hardened hearts. I’m glad you spent so much effort in the bible but effort with no understanding and still actively seeking understand is useless. It’s a lifelong process trusting in God’s wisdom which is why thirty months of hard devotion may not be enough for many. I know you would probably not listen to me some random stranger on the internet but I would encourage you to re-open trying to understand God. Granted a lot of it is faith but God never leaves anyone out to dry even when it seems like it. Silence can be a trial even if it is for many years. But you must be willing to seek God’s truth. I agree with you priests saying well “just have faith” isn’t enough.
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DLV
Dec. 19, 2012 at 1:38amChris cont. I think you’re misunderstanding Isaiah here. The context isn’t about good and evil, it’s about God’s power. From the context it seems to be talking about physical light and darkness. Also, Genesis makes it very clear that evil came from man’s freewill, not God. As for why, he doesn’t just wipe out all evil now, I’m not sure. I’m not God. But you must understand that God sees the grand scope of everything while we have a very tiny narrow view. I trust in him that he has a purpose in keeping it for now. Even if he knew that evil would come from Adam and Eve I trust he had a reason and a plan for allowing it to happen. Perhaps it is to show us his glory and power, who knows at hte end? OR perhaps it is to show us that time when evil finally faces justice. It is a constant trial for all of humanity. to begin you must really broaden your horizon by a lot and not just say evil exists and if it exists that means there is no god or God is evil. That is extremely narrow and if you want to keep that view then you are a fool.
Can you please explain how the test was stacked against A and E? It was one tree and it was meant to test their obedience with him? I’d say it’s pretty fair. Additionally, Satan was the only thing that could really test them. It’s one thing to just have the tree there and then ignore but quite another to really test their obedience if someone gives a good argument against God. I’d say it’s fair Cont.
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DLV
Dec. 19, 2012 at 1:45amChris- “Then, to add insult to injury, he banishes them from the garden of eden and condemns ALL OF MANKIND for the actions of two people, like a liberal, who behaved precisely as He created them and intended for them to behave. Without their ‘sin’ there would be no need of a Messiah, so the Fall of man was planned, orchestrated and intended by God. Those clergymen couldn’t get around it, and neither can anyone else.”
They are our reps. Like the congressmen, in Congress. If they screw up we all pay for it. Granted, no one voted A and E in but I think God knew that perhaps no one could pass the test with the opportunity for humans to rule themselves without God. Additionally, we must look in the grand scope of things again. Yes, he condemned our race because of the sin of two people, but again we are responsible for ourselves. Just like a “liberal” to hold someone else responsible when it is their fault. We can choose God or not. All sin deserves death, but god gave us a way out Jesus and it is that way he can hold us responsible. Do not blame Adam and Eve when they screwed up just like you and I have countless times. You and I would have failed the test. Point is we can take charge of whether to accept God’s gift or not. A and E have nothing to do with that choice. So far I do not have a problem with what God is doing especially if he is judge of the universe. Cont.
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DLV
Dec. 19, 2012 at 1:53amChris- all of this should show the massive amount of love God has for us that A and E our reps failed and that God still wants to save us should show you a bit about his character.
The rant on the third page is a bit off for you. I think you can do better. The point here is God judges sin to put it simply and the how and why is irrelevant. I pointed this out to someone on here before. when humans do evil things think of them like ringwraiths from Lord of the Rings. They are evil and God wants to destroy us but at the same time he loves us that is why we get both sides of his character here. What you make out to be so terrible is actually pretty plain and straight forward. Humans sin and God brings evil to justice. So then you may ask why does he continue to allow all this to happen and YOU need to remember he is beyond time and everything and his decisions are based on everything. We are so narrow minded that it is just A plus B equals C. Want an example? Take a look at the classic story of Joseph. He was sold into slavery thrown into jail made to look like he died. Now anyone who did not know the story would think how can anything good come from this? But guess what it was not just about Joseph was it? God’s plan was to use Evil for good and his story ended up being far more than him. It was about making sure thousands of people didn’t starve to death. So what good can come from children dying? Trust in God’s grand scope as Joseph did. Lastly…..
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DLV
Dec. 19, 2012 at 2:00amChris- Again, I realize that you sitting here looking at evil, only think how can a loving God allow this? But you must understand that an all good god will bring evil to justice someday and that children dying, wars fought and evil running rampant will not be in vain just like the story of Joseph. The question really is how strong is your faith that God will bring evil to justice and that it will work in the end as he has done countless times before?
Revolutionary war- things looked bleak. Washington lost nearly every battle but at the most critical times he prayed to God and allowed him to take the reigns. Just as everyone was about to desert he won a battle and then another and another eventually making a nation.
Civil war- Same sort of thing. Things looked bleak but again, there were men of faith and God delivered again.
It worked in WW2 as well. It worked several times for Israel. David, the walls of Jericho, etc etc. When people have faith good things happen. But look around our faith in the world is sickeningly low and the world hates God. Why in the world would you expect good results daily? I think we need to show some action before we start accusing God of anything. How about that? Just remember when things are at their worst and believe me it will get worse, God has a plan. Or else you will have to be happy stuck in the mud puddle known as evil. I’d be happy to discuss more but put the blame on humans were it belongs. Good day.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 20, 2012 at 10:29am@DLV
Thank you for a well-thought and articulated response. These are the things that good debate and discussion are made of.
I am going to start from the end here from your responses to me.
“…but put the blame on humans were it belongs.” — I do, because I do not believe in God. What a believer can easily do, and should do IMO is to assess where blame really lies for things. You say sin came into the world from the heart and actions of man, but sin existed in Lucifer/Satan before man existed. Lucifer was cast out of heaven and into the world with a 3rd of the angels for exalting himself in his mind as co-equal with God (sin), so humanity did not create sin, nor did they bring it into the world. An angel, with no mention or hint of being created with ‘free will’ as believers claim we have, sinned against God in his mind and heart, which God had to know would happen. God cast them out of heaven into the place He knew He would put man: Earth. Gee, thanks.
We really have to apply a holistic lens to the Bible, especially if we are going to rely on the idea that He has a plan, and has had a plan since long before time and space began. If He did, then everything that happened: the fall of Lucifer, the fall of man, lamenting He created us, the death of millions (including innocents) in the deluge, the sadistic bet with Satan over Job, the rise of David, a liar, adulterer and murderer, also known as a ‘man after God’s own heart’ (cont)
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 20, 2012 at 11:03amJacob’s deception, Abraham raising the knife to slay his own son as a ‘test’ of faith (and I notice you side-stepped that portion of my original posts), ALL things most Christians would believe were morally reprehensible if they happened today, but stand in rigid defense of God doing these things, and His ‘unknowable’ justice and supremacy. Tell me, why would an all-powerful being create you with the faculties you have for reason, cognition, discernment, extrapolation, deductive reasoning, learning, creating ad nauseum and ad infinitum, and then demand you have faith in something you have absolutely no proof exists? Though we disagree about God, I believe you would agree that the Bible itself is not empirical proof of a deity.
“The question really is how strong is your faith that God will bring evil to justice and that it will work in the end as he has done countless times before?” — You forget that, in my opinion and for the sake of this discussion, God is the source of the evil Christians blame for all the bad things you expect Him to bring to justice. That is of little consolation to the tens of thousands of kids who starve to death in agonizing misery each year.
“When people have faith good things happen.” I don’t know about that. Hitler (Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot etc) had faith he could pull off his monstrous campaign. Would you call that good? Continued…
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jackact
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:04pmThe real question is:
Why does GOVERNMENT allow pain and suffering by dividing its citizenry with class warfare?
Only an innocent child could ask the question ‘Why does God allow such pain and suffering’?
Otherwise the question is engineered by secularists who infest the media.
Pay no attention.
Nothing to see here…….
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reformed_2
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:13pmThere are no “innocent” people, including children. Everyone is born with a sin nature, and until, or if, God changes that nature to one which loves His Son, they will remain under bondage to sin.
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PATTY HENRY
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:18pmI disagree. I think a lot of people who would love to believe in GOD ask this honest question and those of us who are fortunate enough who believe we know the answer, need to answer it.
The reason we may know is two-fold: We have studied our faith: Bible Study, read tons of books and daily lessons and we receive ‘enlightenment’ from above (or let’s say, we ‘re searching for an answer to something and it comes to us. I know that is from GOD).
The basic information is that this world is NOT the final place for those created by God. That would be very cruel if there was all this and then nothing when we die.
This world is a training camp; boot camp; a quick course. I think we won the lotto to even be here and as horrible and painful as it can be sometimes (take-your-breath-away-painful), every once in a while we get a glimpse of what HEAVEN will be like.
GOD is the top of the food chain. The best of the Best. There is nothing higher (probably nothing even close) and one day it will all make sense.
GOD is the Master Creator. He created us to LOVE us and have us Love Him. The ONLY way one knows if someone LOVES them (truly) is by letting them choose. Therefore, GOD gave us Free-Will.
As more and more evil makes it’s way around the globe, we will see that life without GOD is very dark. very sad. We are just beginning to see what true EVIL is like. The END TIMES are no doubt here. GO to GOD. SImply ask HIM to enlighten you. He will.
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:24pm@Reformed, If you are referring to “original sin” I have to disagree. To hold one accountable for actions committed before his birth is a mockery of justice.
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jackact
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:39pm@Patty Henry and @Cavallo
Well said.
@Reformer…..again, a question purposely engineered by souless media SECULARISTS!
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hatchetjob
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:01pmREFORMED 2, Great answer!
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DLV
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:11pmJackact- Are you high Reformed’s answer is about as biblical as it gets.
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copatriots
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:03pmMy heart simply breaks for the choice the deranged, evil person took that led to the death of the poor souls. I pray for peace and comfort for the families who are left to survive this tragedy.
As another Blaze poster mentioned and which I have spent much time in prayer and reflection, why does our depraved culture respond to this tragedy when, as a society, we have murdered at least 53 million babies in the womb since 1972?
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:02pm“Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.” – The Man in Black
The Princess Bride.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 17, 2012 at 3:57pmOne of my favorite movies. Ever.
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IMCHRISTIAN
Dec. 17, 2012 at 11:59amGod allowed us to have free will and the way we use it is up to us. Evil is evil and so many are trying to take God out of everything we do and you can see where that is getting us with lack of morals and ethics. However, God knows all and we all better be prepared.
I am so sorry for what happened in Connecticut and evil was in the young man that did those hideous killings. My thoughts and prayers are for the innocent, the family, friends and the country. God be with you all.
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Bonnieblue2A
Dec. 17, 2012 at 11:56amMankind chose to know pain and suffering when Adam and Eve vanquished G~d from the Garden of Eden by choosing the tree of knowledge over the tree of life.
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Cavallo
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:09pmAccording to that story, wasn’t it Eve who cajoled Adam into eating the fruit because she was embarrassed she ate it first and needed a co-conspirator? Then God kicked them out of the garden before they could eat of the tree of life and become like him? Or have we read different versions of the story?
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 18, 2012 at 11:34am“Mankind chose to know pain and suffering when Adam and Eve vanquished G~d from the Garden of Eden by choosing the tree of knowledge over the tree of life.”
As I recall, it was He who vanquished them, but we should consider: God creates Adam and Eve with an inherent weakness to the temptations of the flesh. Commands them to not eat the delicious-looking fruit, but doesn’t warn them of Satan and his temptation. Allows Satan to come and tempt them knowing they would fail (as He is omniscient and ‘has a plan’ for everything). If the Messiah was the plan, then man HAD to fall. Thus, it is quite reasonably argued that God caused the fall, as He created the devil (no mention of angels having free will, or of human beings wither, but I digress), He created evil (Isaiah 45:7), He created human beings weak to temptation, allowed them to be tempted by the rock star of tempters without any warning, then kicked Adam and Eve out, cursed humanity for the actions of 2, and offers us all only eternal punishment with pain, misery and unspeakable agony if we reject Him due to a lack of any empirical evidence that He exists. Seems legit.
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Dushman Kush
Dec. 17, 2012 at 11:54amReligion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. (Seneca the Younger (ca. 4BC – AD65)
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TSUNAMI_22
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:10pmSo your implication is that there is no God, and therefore no son of God?
If so, why would you use the denotation of (4BC and AD65) within your example?
What does BC and AD mean?
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girlnurse
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:23pm@ DUSHMAN:
“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” Romans 1:22
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Forgivenman
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:26pmRom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
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AvengerK
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:27pmBut religion sets up the hospital, soup kitchen and the shelter. “The wise” do nothing but talk and ponder in their academic bubble. And rulers squander the wealth and power of nations making everyone need those soup kitchens, hospitals and shelters.
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PATTY HENRY
Dec. 17, 2012 at 12:34pmGOOD ONE TSUNAMI. Besides, every brilliant person who was on the up and up in the history of the world since 33 AD (lets say that is close) has believed in CHRIST JESUS…even EINSTEIN. Millions before Jesus’s Birth have as well. They have had the opportunity and brain power to do their own
research. They have come to understand that they didn’t know or control how they got here or when they would leave or where they would go when they did leave. They have come to recognize the grand design that everything in the world represents; the incredible genius of the human body…all of the systems and rhythms of the world and they know that THEY didn’t (couldn’t) duplicate it. They have surrendered their stubborn souls to GOD. Note that the great creators, the great inventors, the great statesmen; scientists; artists all reached points in their lives where they knew they must surrender their will to GOD who’s plan for them was by far superior to anything they could come to. As each of us have to do. There is a war going on, getting more intense … there is nothing you can do more for yourself or your family better than getting to know GOD. The “surrender” stuff will freak you out until you consider: Heaven can’t have 1 Million individuals with the mind-set like they are on Earth. YOU have to do some brain work yourselves. It is what it is. Figure it out.
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girlnurse
Dec. 17, 2012 at 1:12pmAVANGERK wins the prize! So true!
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:25pm@TSUNAMI
C’Mon, man… BC and AD do nothing… ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prove there is a God. While it may be referenced to the birth of Jesus Christ (which, apparently the Catholic church has recently said Jesus may have been born 4 years or so earlier than we’ve all been led to believe), but the historicity of Jesus does nothing to prove the existence of an all-powerful God.
@PATTY HENRY
So every wise person or genius on the up and up (meaning who professed Christ, as you do… I mean, how else could they be on the up and up?) since 33 AD has believed in Jesus Christ? How did the wise across the world hear of Jesus Christ in 33 or 34 AD? The gospels weren’t written for roughly 30 or more years after his death, so… did the apostles make it across the globe by 34 AD?
Hitchens, though crass, was an intellectual and did not believe. Neither does Dawkins, nor Darwin, nor Neil DeGrasse Tyson, nor Stephen Hawking… Isaac Asimov, Sam Harris, Andrew Carnegie, Bertrand Russel, Richard Strauss (the composer)… and I could go on, and on, and on. And of course we’re all familiar with the ‘founding fathers were deists” argument, but I don’t give much weight or care for it either way.
I would advise being a little more careful with generalizations and assertions.
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TSUNAMI_22
Dec. 17, 2012 at 4:40pm@ ChrisDiamond
None of those people can prove that God doesn’t exist either.
For me, in the simplest terms, proof of God is evidenced by the daily reality of exactly the opposite. From there, free will determines each individuals path. There’s the easy and seductive way (temptation, indifference, and evil) and then there’s the difficult way (Love, empathy, compassion and conviction to defend goodness).
It’s the ultimate “freedom of choice”. You’d think that liberals would totally embrace this concept.
All I’m saying is that I have faith. Am I a sinner?…you bet.
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ChrisDiamond
Dec. 18, 2012 at 11:48am@TSUNAMI
“None of those people can prove that God doesn’t exist either.” — Quite right, and they’ve said so themselves. I never made the assertion that they could prove, or have proven that God doesn’t exist. Patty just erred in saying ‘all’ brilliant people believed in Christ since 33 AD, which is, on it’s face, completely incorrect.
“For me, in the simplest terms, proof of God is evidenced by the daily reality of exactly the opposite.” — I appreciate your use of the caveat, “For me.” I choose, instead to trust in science, in part due to it’s progression toward truth through rigorous trial, error, admitting when and where it’s wrong, and what it doesn’t know. It seems a lot more honest than demanding faith in an entity who’s existence lacks any empirical evidence.
“From there, free will determines each individuals path.” I’m not sure how Bible believers can believe in free will, given all the verses about predestination, being chosen before the world was born and God’s grand plan etc. (See my response to DLV above)
“There’s the easy and seductive way (temptation, indifference, and evil) and then there’s the difficult way (Love, empathy, compassion and conviction to defend goodness).” — And what if people who reject the notion of God behave w/love, compassion& empathy? How can one explain that? Is the love, compassion & empathy not real w/o God?
Please don’t mistake me for a liberal. The insinuation was noted, and is incorrect.
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reality_check
Jan. 2, 2013 at 11:30pmMature secular adults only believe those things because they have stolen the idea of moral imperatives from theism. They are dependent on thousands of years of theological ruminations in connection with elements of ethics and morality in general.
A universal moral standard CANNOT be defined from within atheism or “science” as they like to use as their fall back crutch. Atheism logically leads to relativism and nihilism. Hard line atheists like Alexander Rosenberg and new atheists like Sam Harris agree and take it a step further stating that all thoughts are essentially illusions and entirely deterministic mechanisms of survival. The unpurposed accidents of randomly evolved brain chemistry. That essentially you are not supposed to believe anything, including concepts of morality.
As a result nothing has instrinsic value. You are just a meatsack.
Before you wish to jump on the morality soapbox it’s wise to make yours has a little more substance than mere illusion.
Diamond, you couldn’t be more clueless.
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