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If the Wise Men Followed a Star (Scientifically), Would They End Up in Bethlehem?

Dec. 18, 2012 12:04pm Liz Klimas

The website “What if?,” which looks at hypothetical questions through a physics lens, has tackled a timely idea for the Christmas season.

“The story of the three wise men got me wondering: What if you did walk towards a star at a fixed speed? What path would you trace on the Earth? Does it converge to a fixed cycle?” — N. Murdoch

Heres What the Biblical Wise Mens Path Following a Star Would Look Like

(Image: Shutterstock.com)

Randall Munroe, a former NASA robotics employee who maintains the webcomic about “romance, sarcasm, math and language,” sets up some assumptions first. Namely, that the Biblical magi will only walk toward the star when it’s in the sky and when the sun has set. For ease of calculations, he also allows for “a little theological confusion” with the assumption that the wise men would be able to walk on water.

He has the wise men follow the star Siruis from Jerusalem, which does in fact take them through Bethlehem, where Jesus Christ was born. But Munroe acknowledges that “it’s tricky to figure out exactly what the wise men would have been following.” The departure date of the wise men following a star would effect the outcome of their path as well, but he says the overall picture would look the same.

Path following the star Sirius. (Image: What-if.xkcd.com)

If they continued on their way following Siruis, they would end up circling Botswana.

(Image: What-if.xkcd.com)

The wise men could have also followed a planet though (Venus in the night sky shines brighter than many stars, for example). If this was the case, Munroe shows how the path taken by the wise men would have been more erratic looking.

Wise men’s path following Venus. (Image: What-if.xkcd.com)

Wise men’s path following Mars. (Image: What-if.xkcd.com)

(H/T: Gizmodo)

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Comments (133)

Matt
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 2:13pm
This is of course, assuming that the “Star” wasn’t a comet, or a supernova, or a really bright angel, or some other temporary celestial figure. In other words, this is all assuming that the same star they followed is still in our sky today, which, given the sudden (overnight) appearance of the Star of David it is unlikely to assume that it was something permanent and not a temporary phenomenon.

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- Drives Like Jehu
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 4:59pm
  Matthew 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and STOOD over where the young child was.
  
  Indeed, this was no garden variety star.
  
  Report this comment
- reformed_2
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 6:17pm
  A star created by the the Creator God, directed by Him to the exact location He wanted it to stand, whether still active in our current sky is what is called a miracle. Of course most secular “scientists” don’t allow for such things and try to apply known “scientific” methodology to their conclusions; which of course are based on non-repeatable occurrences in history.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 6:51pm
  @REFORMED ………………..”Created by the creator?” And why would God, who used angels to inform humble shepherds of Jesus’ birth,now employ a star to guide pagan astrologers – first to Jesus’ enemy (King Herod) and then to the child himself? The only reasonable conclusion is that the star was a sinister device of Satan, who is capable of such manifestations.
  
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- TROONORTH
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 10:09pm
  Or the star was an allegorical device.
  
  Report this comment
- bonesiii
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 3:09pm
  There are two major theories about this (which he appears to be ignorant of but ah well).
  
  First, the traditional supernatural, low-hovering, moving object theory. This is popular among biblical Christians because it would help explain how the star could later move to point out a particular house. However, I don’t agree with it because it doesn’t explain why it would need to rise, or why only the wise men noticed.
  
  Second is that a conjunction of Jupiter (the “king” star) and symbolic constellations was foreseen by Daniel or another Hebrew prophet in Persia and the wise men knew to look for this; from their perspective along the route, this conjunction lined them up perfectly to get to Israel, and then later similar conjunctions lined up perfectly on the road to Bethlehem, likely even down to the house. As long as they could know prophetically that travelers from Persia would be lined up for this, it would work, and also explain why nobody else saw it as pointing to that specific house.
  
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- AnimalsAsLeaders
  Posted on December 20, 2012 at 11:03pm
  If you followed a comet, you’d have to move quick. It would be gone in a few hours…
  I’m sorry, remind me how a supernova isn’t a star?
  
  Report this comment
RedHorse
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:59pm
I don’t know which is funnier the what if blog (http://what-if.xkcd.com/), the fact that The Blaze picked up this post, or the reactions to it.

Keep in mind that when Randal makes posts he uses science and sarcasm to look at incredible/imposible ideas. In this post he admits that we have no idea what star it would be, and that it could have been a supernova. (He didn’t find any record of one, but that’s not saying much) So he picked several canidates to make interesting maps and ended with one where the wise men would have wound up at the North Pole just to make a joke about Santa.

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dillon37
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:45pm
The answer friends, is found at TheBethlehemstar.com; no questions remain.

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Yankeethinker
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:44pm
Who wrote this article? Pee Wee Herman?

Here’s a more scientific and very reasoned view of the events which actually uses details in the Bible and clues from history and the results were amazing.

http://www.bethlehemstar.net

Others have posted about this… and to that end, it bears repeating… In fact, even scientists from Nasa back up Rick Larson’s findings… imagine that.

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- TheCalmOne
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 3:43pm
  Maybe you could demonstrate, using mathematics and astrophysics, of course, why the gentleman’s calculations are wrong?
  
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- ColdDeadHands
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 8:54pm
  I’ve seen this presentation. I was impressed and this coming from not such a true believer up to that point. Glad to say I’ve come around since then.
  
  Report this comment
- bonesiii
  Posted on December 20, 2012 at 8:20pm
  Thecalmone, the problem isn’t his calculations (as far as I know :P) but his assumptions of what things to feed into the math; which stars or phenomenon were used.
  
  However, it’s useful to point out that clearly those things cannot be the star. :) Anyways, I agree with Larson’s theory as it is completely sound, and so far I’ve yet to hear a convincing rebuttal.
  
  Report this comment
NewLife24
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:29pm
I can end the debate. I shouldn’t tell you but I will. The shekinah glory of God hovered over the manger and it was perceived as a star. Science cannot explain the miraculous and science cannot explain how life began, just that it did. It never will, and faith in science will lead you to hell. Deifying the creation is a warning from the creator Himself. There now you have it.

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- vaman
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 3:26pm
  You sound crazy, so I think they followed the Death Star! Just putting together two fictional stories for your entertainment.
  
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- txjb
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 4:43pm
  You got it Newlife24 . This was a special star by God to guide the wise men , the King James says , lo,the star which they saw in the east went before them , this has to mean the star was moving and led them to the house where Jesus was . Matt. 2:9.
  
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termyt
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:25pm
Whatever the star was, it wasn’t Venus or Mars or any planet. It was not a star this in the night sky every night.

It seems unlikely that men who study the heavens for such signs would say, “Hey, there’s that star that’s been in the sky every night of my life. Let’s go follow it.”

The star, whatever it was, had to be something unique, something so new and unusual that people who knew what they were looking at would be compelled to figure out why it had suddenly appeared.

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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:30pm
  Yup, “star” is just a descriptive term, not a scientific definition of what they were looking for.
  
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DoctorRon
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:20pm
The “Wise Men” saw a star in the East and immediately went West toward Galilee.

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- dragonsrightwing
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 2:57pm
  @DoctorRon – To belabor the obvious …
  It was the magi (“wise men”) who were in the east, not the star. “… there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,” (Matt 2:1) – the next verse quotes them as saying to Herod “… we have seen his star in the east …”, but that simply means that they (the magi) were to the east of Jerusalem when they saw the star. It *might* also refer to the fact that stars (like the sun) rise in the east and set in the west due to the rotation of the earth, but it clearly does not indicate that the star was traveling east …
  A little homework might save you an embarrassing post …
  
  Report this comment
- HI_Don
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 3:16pm
  Helps if you read original text, not peoples summaries or translations. But simply put – Wise me from the East, saw the star from their perspective (They saw it from the east) and followed it to Jerusalem (which was to the west) Thus “they saw it in the east” is not the same as saying “they saw the star that was east of them”, the better translation would be “They in the east saw the star” but because of the difference in the way we structure sentences and thoughts we come up with some confusing stuff if you don’t look deeper. Similar issues occur when folks argue about scriptures that clearly state Jesus born in Bethlehem, and others saying born in the City of David (which is Jerusalem). One has to know the geography and tradition of the time to know Bethlehem is considered in Jerusalem similar to our day saying Born in Los Angeles or saying born in California. Both can be accurate.
  
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SchoeneTante
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:10pm
Angels are described sometimes as stars in the Bible (Job 38:7, Rev. 1:20) . It would seem that the wise men were guided by an angel who perhaps appeared as a shining star in the sky. This star moved when the men moved, then stopped when they stopped. It finally came to rest over the place where the baby Jesus was. This clearly refers to something supernatural, not an actual planetary body.

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- Yeshuasbondservant
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 2:45am
  Exactly right, I was reading through everyones comments and wondering if anybody was going to state this very important detail. In other places in Rev. also it talks about a star fallen from heaven, which is not a star but an angel. I commed you, most people don’t read or study the bible like the author of this story or he would have came to this conclusion like we did. Instead he waste everyones time chasing a rabbit down a hole that leads to a deadend because he is unlearned in the gospels and the Torah and the prophets.
  
  Report this comment
mcsledge
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:10pm
God is the greatest scientist of them all. He created all that we know and don’t know.

Yet the wise are ignorant because they choose to put trust in their own knowledge rather than in God. There may have been a star that guided the wise men, but you can bet that the Spirit of God was their greatest compass.

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:21pm
  “Yet the wise are ignorant because they choose to put trust in their own knowledge rather than in God.”
  
  You mean, . . . the same “wise” who created the technology it took for you to read what I’m posting? How about those who have greatly increased life expectency through advancements in medicine? Being able to talk to someone on another part of the globe instantaneously using a small piece of plastic and circuitry? Creating machines to take you to your family hundreds/thousands of miles away in mere hours? Etc. . . You see them as “ignorant” when nothing even remotely like “a god” is found? Why would this “god” have any bearing on reality, under such understanding?
  
  It is fine if you choose to believe the “star leading men to the manger” story. Doesn’t bother me at all, . . . and is part of the christmas season. But to call very WISE [actual] men “ignorant” is absurd.
  
  Report this comment
- 4truth2all
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:28pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  What does your icon stand for ?
  
  Would it not be possible that the “inventions” of men are in fact gifts from God? Certainly the brains abilities and effort to create them are. Unless you believe you come from a pile of mush. Maybe that’s why much of the world is a pile of mush!
  
  Report this comment
- Todd P
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:38pm
  @ DEAVONREYE: You miss the point of the scripture. It is referring to those who convince themselves that because they are smart when it comes to worldly matters, they are therefore wise as to spiritual matters. I work with people who have MDs and PhDs, but that doesn’t make them wise – just smart. Spiritual wisdom is a gift to those who seek it. Those who reject it could very well be smart – but foolish at the same time.
  
  Ever hear of the expression “Pride goeth before a fall”?
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 2:30pm
  4truth2all, that avatar is being switched out as soon as this site updates. However, it is “a demon trap” from the show “Supernatural”, seen on the CW on Wednesday nights. Good show! I’m not anti “supernatural”, just never experienced anything in real life that remotely is like “the supernatural”.
  
  As for your question, the ability of the brain is pretty fantastic. They appear to have been a product of the evolution of our species. An emergent property? I don’t know. Did a “god” [or similarly advanced being] direct it? I have no idea. But I don’t see anythning OF that level of being. I wish I did. Truly. I see the natural.
  
  And to address Todd [as I continue], . . . there is a verse about “spiritual things being foolish” to those who don’t believe. There is truth to that. I could only see myself AS “foolish” to just accept what other humans are telling me “is true”, based upon nothing valid. I searched for ~20 years [in humble sincerity] yet only found silence, emptiness, a void where it was promised “a god would fill it”. All the time being as sincere as I was capable.
  
  Having said that, upon discoving why I wasn’t “getting it”, I came across other bits of facts that allowed me to understand why, and what was wrong. Long story short, I cannot honestly be more than I am. I do not see that as “foolish”.
  
  Report this comment
- nesmond
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 5:05pm
  We are supernaturally created beings, living on a supernaturally created planet, which is travelling at the rate of 660,000 mph through a supernaturally created infinite vacuum of space. Every breath we take is a miracle. When we have supernaturally created beings (atheists), who scoff at idea of there being a such thing as the supernatural, this we know is not wisdom, but foolishness.
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 9:20am
  Nesmond, . . . science understands the mechanism of all the things you mentioned above. If the “supernatural” can be so readily understood, . . . the “the supernatural” seems far less impressive then I was always lead to believe.
  
  I understand that YOU see all this as “supernatural”, . . . but suppose I give you that it is. Then what would you call “the miracle claims”, for example, from those who are “faith healers”? What about the biblical claims that “the sun stood still”? If the natural world [that is understood] is the same “supernatural”, what do you call all the fantastic claims in the bible?
  
  Why don’t you see it happening today? Why does no one accept the James Randi challenge? There is a MILLION dollars waiting for someone who can demonstrate a true “miracle”. Seems that much money could go a long way to helping a lot of people if a church had it.
  
  But lets go back to the realistic. The mechanics of our world and universe are understood, even down to the smallest particles. And in nothing that has been found . . . has any scientist found a label that said “Made by God”.
  
  Report this comment
- Quiata
  Posted on December 20, 2012 at 8:15am
  @DEAVONRYE Don’t confuse wisdom with empirical knowledge…. a “knowledgeable” scientist is not necessarily a wise person.
  
  Report this comment
christianUSA
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:46pm
Opinion a star from the point of view in Jesus time was bright object in the sky; such a large bright object in temporary geosynchronous / geostationar orbit directly fixed above Bethlehem and not the equator would not be natural event but a purposeful powered control action that any Wise star sky viewer of even that time would realize as a remarkable thing. The Bible clearly so describes this not as a natural event or accident but a blatant sign able to be followed and by the Wise interpreted; sadly many today do not get this.

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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:12pm
  Christian
  there have been actual studies and not this one guy’s fanciful musings done on the subject. Astrophysics, astronomy, and cosmology can place stars in their correct position going back nearly to the beginning of time through the use of Physics and Planetary science and good ole math…
  
  Now this isn’t a theology statement about the age of the Earth and I am not saying that God didn’t make the star appear where it needed too…but around the time of Jesus’ birth…1-10 BC or so based on the most accurate records…there is some scientific evidence and accounts of there appearing a new “star” in the night sky that even was visible during the day. Now, the wise men, 3 kings whatever, were said to come from afar, no direction or kingdom mentioned. Most tend to put them knowing each other, coming from the same place. I would say they came from the technology giants of that time: Ethiopia, Persia, and Babylon/Arabia possibly China.
  These “wise men/kings” that knew science and were investigating the “star” which was written about and now is believed in astronomy to have been a supernova event, all met along the way on the outskirts of Israel, collaborated their data, and moved forward.
  Seeing as they knew that the “star” meant the birth of a king, in all 3 societies, these individuals were also astrologers of some sort or had “divine” inspiration. Either way, they could follow the supernova day and night as told in the Bible.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:35pm
  Yo VRW:
  Technology does not make smart, as you alude to.
  All one has to do is compair tests in school 100 years ago to today … there is a decline in our “intelligence”. ( my own spelling proves that).
  We stand on the shoulders of those before us …
  
  Report this comment
- truthnstuff
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:40pm
  While there are many astrological events recorded in history from the first century, there is no record of anything like a “star” that we can find. Since Herod knew of the start then it most likely was not private to the “wise men”. The star moved as they followed it? I think there is no real credibility here. Perfectly fine for those who believe it, just like stories about Zeus, but it cannot be trotted out as fact.
  
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- christianUSA
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 11:12pm
  Read carefully the story in the Bible in greek in Matthew 2:2-10; what most talk about is a interpretation; it never says anything about the star moving in the text, it only really says it was before them, (that is in front of them as they traveled), then when they arrived it was directly over where the child was. This would be consistent with description of a ground observer with a geostationar object over the child. Given 2000 years ago all other records may not be available and fewer that observed a very big sky not all of those would have seen it. Not saying no a super-nova but a star apparent path from someone in the east then from Jerusalem plus that it ‘stood over where the Child was’ that would not be consistent with stars movements on a turning planet. The same greek term used for stars as seen in 1Corinthians15:41 and Revelation 8:10 can mean more then suns and can include comets or meteors therefore a bright object in the sky.
  
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- christianUSA
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 12:48pm
  If as I suggest the star, bright object was geostationar over Bethlehem or where the Child was then yes scientifically it would lead people that saw it and followed it to the new born King.
  As another commenter correctly points out the same greek term as in Rev1:20 can symbolically mean a angel/s; add in Luke 2 with Matthew 2 where angel of the Lord with glory of the Lord shone to near by same region shepherds then a Multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, “Glory to God in the highest,
  And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” Therefore while not directly stated it is reasonable and consistent with the full story that the star could have been angel/s. Now angels, as can be noted Act 5:17-24, as being able to be seen by some but at the same time and place unseen by others therefore if the star was angelic nature is possible that not all could or would be permitted to see it.
  Faith filled Merry and peacefully Christmas!
  
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momrules
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:45pm
I will trust God’s will over any scientists theory 2000+ years after the fact. The wise men followed a star as they were told to do, they found Jesus as they were told they would……….

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- Cavallo
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:28pm
  “Star” is just a descriptive term, not a literal definition of what the ancient scientists were searching for.
  
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- TheCalmOne
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 3:49pm
  “God’s will” makes your computer work and provides your electric light and makes your car go and keeps the planes in the sky and cures your illnesses? Those ignorant scientists know nothing!
  
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Jelly_Belly
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:42pm
A better question would be, how did the Magi know Jesus’ birth would be marked by a star? There is no prophecy in the Old Testament that foretells of a star marking the occasion.

Also, where did this idea of Siruis as the Magi’s star come from? That’s not Scriptural either. I have always assumed the star was temporary, placed by God for his purposes.

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- HOOT_OWL
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 2:39pm
  Jelly
  I believe Joseph the son of Jacob is the key to this question.
  
  This is my thought.
  Joseph son of Jacob ,was elevated to second only to the Pharaoh of Egypt and because everyone new especially the Magi, that he was the one that foretold the Pharaoh what his dreams were .The Magi’s of that day highly respected Joseph and his God. Some contend that Joseph and the Magi formed a friendship of his day and foretold the coming of the Christ and the signs to the Magi. And the Magi, because of what they witnessed Joseph gift of prophecy. They handed down from Magi to Magi, from one generation to the next .Until the foretelling of the signs of the coming of the messiah came to be. that would lead them to .IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”
  
  I hope this helps you on your quest.
  
  http://theegyptianidentityofjoseph.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/joseph-son-of-jacob-israel-was-imhotep-of-egyptian-history/
  
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- Jelly_Belly
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 3:22pm
  Hoot,
  
  I think Joseph would have been too far removed to be a plausible explanation. That would be what, 1800 years apart approximately? However I have heard the theory that it could have been the prophet Daniel who was taken into exile to Babylon and died there in exile. He would have lived around 600 B.C., was also very respected in Babylon and Persia, and it’s possible Daniel may have left some text which never made it into our canon that foretold of a star . Also we know that the Magi came from the east which would fit well with the theory of Daniel in Babylon (Egypt, of course, being south of Israel.)
  
  Also, I’m not sure what you mean when you bring the name “Immanuel” into the discussion. That name only occurs in Isaiah I (specifically chapters 7 and 8), and then only once in the NT, in Joseph’s dream. The Magi really don’t have anything to do with that name.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 4:40pm
  Jelly……….The prophet Daniel was made chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon after he revealed the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar
  Daniel 2:48 Consequently the king made Daniel someone great,and many big gifts he gave to him, and he made him ruler over all the jurisdictional distric of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon.
  
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BlessedONE333
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:42pm
RICK LARSON FOUND THE REAL STAR OF BETHLEHEM – IT’S NOT A UFO – IT’S NOT SIRIUS OR ANY OTHER STUPID THING THAT COMES OUT OF NASA ATHEISTS!!!

THE REAL STAR OF BETHLEHEM PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCLmRB-OpGE

PART 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppuprFEzNTc

PART 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_CZTMBs0A

PART 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-5op2nBeds

PART 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nB70vxO90Y

PART 6
THIS ONE SHOWS YOU THE ASTRONOMY TO THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmTcofUzh18

PART 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB2tmXPtoZc

GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE SENT JESUS TO DIE FOR YOUR SINS
PLEASE SEEK HIM SO YOU WILL BE BLESSED AND SAVED!!!

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Ghandi was a Republican
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:38pm
Back in the day- there really wasn’t a word for a guiding light. People were thousands away from even hearing about electricity or any other kind of artificial energy, let alone a spotlight or artificial light. So- anything like it might naturally be called a star.
With old outdated technology of 100 years ago we could duplicate the whole scenario with a balloon a lens and a light bulb. Is it really a reach that it wasn’t a star at all? It could have been a thousand different things that might fit the description of ‘star’

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- VRW Conspirator
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:23pm
  umm..just so you know…
  we have proof of simple cooper batteries in Egypt dating back to about 2000 BC that they used to light the inside of the pyramids so they could paint and decorate after being built. we have the batteries themselves and can recreate the process with the same chemicals available to them and cause a filament to glow, just like in today’s lightbulbs. some pyramids have rooms full of these used up batteries.
  
  those “ancient” people weren’t so stupid after all…they also had hydraulic pumps and water saws and gears and what for lack of a better word would be called a basic computer device today, more like an automatic control device with an internal timer that would cause stage settings to move, curtains to open and close, set pieces to enter and leave the stage. and all of this 2500-5000 years ago…
  not to mention optics, architecture, hydrocrete, geometry, and artisans. we might be able to recreate what they built easily today, but that is because we have computers and machines to do all the heavily lifting and computing for us that they did by hand…and what they built is every bit as perfect, if not more so, than what we do today with machines and computers.
  
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SquidVetOhio
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:37pm
Also, I believe the wise man did not visit Jesus in Bethlehem. They visited Him him in Nazareth when Jesus was probably about 2 years old. (Matthew 2:16) Also, the Bible never declares how many wise men there were. Not sure where the number 3 came from.

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- Polarized America
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:49pm
  .
  yup..information from 2000 yrs ago can be a little sketchy
  heck..news from this morning can be as well…..lol ../;-)
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:23pm
  Yo Squid:
  
  The number comes from the three gifts offered. So it would reason that each man brought a gift. Also each gift has symbolic meaning, as does the bringing of the gifts … the video of Rick Larson that BLESSEDONE333 has posted is worth a look and listen … Enjoy the Holydays
  
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RIGS
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:35pm
No they used a GARMIN GPS bought on amazon.com. WHAT DO YOU THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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PIGSWILLNEVERFLY
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:33pm
Most scientist does not explain even the basic questions and leaves out G-d.

Daniel on the other hand was “wise” and left instructions for those he trained to look for the signs in the heavens which they did for 500 years. The prophecy was fulfilled and the messiah was found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRvxvnBtdcs you tube Michael Rood Christmas

He studied Hebrew scriptures for over 30 years and has lived in Jerusalem.

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- Ghandi was a Republican
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:44pm
  Name the ‘miracle’ and I will describe ‘a scientific’ method that the so called “science observers” who cite the impossible cannot argue is in fact scientifically provable. Is it a reach that any higher being than us might have a few abilities too? “God” is at least one tier up the scale from Einstein, Newton, Bell, even Tesla.
  
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The_Jerk
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:30pm
If the Wise Men Followed a Star (Scientifically), Would They End Up in Bethlehem?

No.

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- Eastinfection
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 5:04pm
  If you followed The Dead on their final tour, you ended up in Chicago.
  
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willingtoupe
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:23pm
Some what accurate. After the wise men brought gifts to the son of God, when approached by Herod and his soldiers, the wise men were suggesting to them to follow the brightest star in the sky. Now, because the scientist in this article has 3 possible suggestions, according to the scriptures, Herod was given the run around and took it as being mocked especially if him and some of his troops ended up circling around in Botswana and/or in India.

Also it wasn’t a matter of where ( Bethlehem) it was a matter of when…Christ wasn’t born during the Winter Solstice.

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- steve61lindsey
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:39pm
  Very well said. The star the wise men followed could have been a miracle. Whereas the stars Herod’s men were following was most likely just a star.
  
  Since shepherds were in the field, Christ was probably born between spring and fall.
  
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john vincent
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:22pm
Apparantly, they knew what they were doing; ie, they ended up at the correct destination.
In this case, science be damned.

What is the ‘science’ for an iron axe that floats on water-
or for a sun that does not move for hours and hours-
or for a rainbow to appear out of thin air?

He who commands the laws of nature can suspend what , if, where, and how, to who, or what, whenever.

The men followed a star, I dont know nor care what route they took, the essence of faith is to believe the unseen, because God is in control

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:35pm
  There is no evidence of “suspension of physical laws” . . . just the words of ancient superstitious texts.
  
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- john vincent
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:43pm
  d-rye-
  
  So we are at an impasse; but I admit there is One greater than I-
  
  anybody greater than you?
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:03pm
  An “admission” isn’t equal to fact.
  
  Having said that, yes, this would be in impass in such a debate. I understand that many of the biblical stories require the suspetion of physical laws. It’s just a shame that many of them were “to kill more people”. That isn’t an attack on your religion. It is a factual part of it.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:08pm
  suspetion should have been suspension. Sorry.
  
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- TheBigMike
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:25pm
  D-Rye, I wouldn’t be so sure about the suspension of physical laws being necessary. The more one learns of topics such as quantum entalnglement / nonlocality, the dual nature of light (which is dependent on consciousness), retrograde causality, et cetera, the more bizarre the world appears.
  
  In a Newtonian / Euclidean world, sure, miracles require the suspension of known physical laws. But even Einstein agreed the universe is not Newtonian.
  
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- 4truth2all
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:48pm
  Yo Devonreye:
  
  So turning water into wine, walking on water and healing every sick person by the hundreds killed people ??? You sound like you have emptied a few bottles yourself.
  
  Yea, I guess the Red Sea was not willing to allow the slaughterof God’s people by those who refused to hear Gods warnings to let His people be … to bad for them
  
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- john vincent
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 2:03pm
  @ truth
  
  good addition
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 2:15pm
  Mike, there are some interesting hypotheses in theoretical physics. However, some physical laws [such as "the sun standing still", which wasn't even the case, and couldn't be the case] preclude that any claim OF them being broken are based upon fantasy.
  
  4all, I wasn’t talking about the minor miracles of the New Testament. Nor have I seen any facts that would show the exodus story as being literal.
  
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- memyselfandi
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 4:07pm
  @ DEAVONRYE
  
  Some years ago it was discovered by treasure hunters that a particular area on the floor of the Red Sea is littered with the remains of 3rd dynasty chariot wheels. In fact, the 4 spoke, solid gold wheel cover of the Pharaoh’s personal chariot was found at that location. There are hieroglyphs of the entire Exodus event held by the Department of Antiquities in Egypt that match the chariot remains that were found there…including the Pharaoh’s wheel cover.
  
  There is a multitude of evidence that the Bible is in fact entirely true…one just has to be willing to look for it and consider the possibility that you might be wrong about a few things.
  
  Me
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 4:25pm
  And doing a search, you will discover that those artifacts, and the claims about them are unconfirmed. You may find a site that will attest “these are from the exodus and are the remains of the egyptian army”. It is all heresay. There could be other ways such items ended up down there. As for your claim, here’s something I found.
  
  “based on the findings of Ron Wyatt, a colorful and controversial amateur archeologist who claimed to have found Noah’s ark, the Biblical Ark of the Covenant, the location of Sodom And Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, the true site of Mt. Sinai, the true site of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the original stones of the Ten Commandments. He was a passionate and sincere man, according to his supporters, but his critics abound and scientists and archeologists regarded him as an untrained maverick at best and there are some who regarded his as a fraud.”
  
  There really isn’t “a multitude of evidence for the bible”. There MAY be some corroborated stories that mention actual location and people of that time [which wouldn't be hard to believe at all], but please give any credible evidence to support supernatural claims.
  
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- memyselfandi
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 2:30am
  The organization who sponsored the search that found the chariot remains is the same group who is responsible for awarding the Nobel prize in science and you can bet they didn’t expect to find anything like this. They aren’t making it up and it’s not hear-say…it is a proven fact that these remains are from the 3rd dynasty and they have been authenticated by the Egyptian government officials themselves. 15 years ago or so this was widely reported on and there was quite an uproar from people on every side of the issue and I still have the pictures around here somewhere to prove it.
  
  I have been talking to non-believers for a long time and I have learned that at some point it becomes clear that no matter what you say and no matter what evidence you provide to a skeptic, they simply won’t believe because they just don’t want to. If Jesus Himself showed up and started performing miracles, I suspect you wouldn’t want to submit yourself to His leadership even then.
  
  The truth is…I really don’t care if you believe any of this or not…There are plenty of others around here that do and I am responding to your post for their benefit…not yours. You may think that is a cold statement coming from a Christian and your right, it is, but at some point you have to accept that the person you are talking to has made up their mind and they aren’t going to change.
  
  God is not willing that anyone should perish but at some point He will let you live with your decision and so wil
  
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- memyselfandi
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 2:45am
  …and so will I…
  
  As for supernatural evidence…When I was 13 I was running and I fell on a piece of jagged metal that was sticking out of the ground and it split my side open from my hip to my shoulder. My friends carried me home and my mom did the strangest thing…she covered the wound with a towel and prayed for me. After just a few minutes she took the towel off and much to both her surprise and mine…the wound was closed up and a scab had formed. She covered it back up and prayed some more and after a total of about 20 minutes it was almost completely gone and a scar had formed. I’m almost 50 now and I still have a very large scar on my side to this day.
  
  So you see…I believe because I really have seen God in action and I have been the recipient of nothing less than a miracle, and neither you or any other of your unbelieving friends will ever be able to convince me otherwise.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 9:09am
  My point was, . . . there could be other reasons for artifacts at the bottom of the red sea. To assume that it “has to be just like the story in the bible claims” doesn’t make it true. And even if most people BELIEVE something as true, it doesn’t mean that it is.
  
  So, because I don’t just accept your claims, or the claims of the finder of these artifacts, . . . I “wouldn’t believe no matter what because I would have to submit to your god”. I don’t submit to that which is silent and absent in my life. And even IF it did, . . . it would have to answer questions for many of the stories included in the bible. If this “god” actually DID condone, ordered, or personally caused the deaths of countless numbers of people for being human, then it isn’t worthy of being submitted to, no matter HOW much power it has. You just become its willing slave.
  
  As for your story, I appreciate you offering it, and recognize that you felt that “your prayers were answered”. I suppose that could be quite a memorable event, as you were in pain and perhaps even shock from such a wound.
  
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- memyselfandi
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 10:58am
  HI D-
  
  I understand how you feel about the death of the multitudes in the Old Testament, but your push-back on the matter shows me that you don’t understand OT history and you haven’t really given this very much thought. I think you are smarter than that…
  
  Everything God was doing in the OT was for the purpose of SAVING the entire human race and sometimes in a war…only a nuclear bomb and mass destruction will stop the conflict. You also fail to see that God did not ever come against any one person or any group of people with out giving them and opportunity to stop what they were doing and be good. In many cases He gave them hundreds of years to repent and they simply refused.
  
  Look at the human race like it is all just one person…the sin of man is like a cancer that has invaded the body and is killing the person and if something drastic isn’t done…the patient will surely die. So the decision is made to cut the body open and remove the aggressive disease.
  
  Look at the mindset of the radical Muslims of today who are teaching their men, women and children to hate the Nation of Israel and they program them from the time they are young to kill themselves and as many Jews as they possibly can. Something must be done to stop all this nonsense and if they don’t have a radical change of heart, it will mean all out war…and THEY are bringing it upon themselves just like the people of the OT were doing. The people God ordered to be eliminated…deserved it.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 11:20am
  Oh, . . . I do understand. But I recognize that your understanding is based upon the current apologetic statements about what happened in the Old Testament. I used to believe as you did, when I was “a christian”.
  
  Before I continue, let me state that the mindset of radical Islam is a danger to many cultures, today. Why do they do these things? They believe that their god, Allah, is the only true god and his prophet Muhammed, along with their holy texts, must be pushed upon the infidel. If they have to kill people, they will.
  
  Turn the clock back to Old Testament times. It is the same thing, if you look at it without bias. Another group [Hebrews] had claims of “the only god” [well, eventually, but a topic for another day] and those whom they came across either accepted THEIR beliefs or were killed. And many times, ALL life, including children and babies. Other times, they took slaves of those conquered, based upon pretty specific characteristics [which brings up questions about their ethics].
  
  So, what are we to think? Let’s assume that this god is real, as depicted in christianity. So, the most advanced entity to have ever existed, past, present, and future, could only come up with “creatures dying bloody” just to make sure ‘his’ plan is accomplished? Really? I’m far from “a god”, but could think of better options. How much more should an omniscient [questionable] “god” do?
  
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- memyselfandi
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 11:21am
  and Deavon…
  
  You can’t just read the headlines of a story and expect to have any degree of understanding of what was really going on and yet that seems to be just what you are doing. For every one story in the Bible there are many back stories regarding the issue that must be #1, looked for and #2 taken into account and you clearly haven’t done either of them.
  
  This is my final appeal to you…before you completely reject the notion that the Bible is an authentic, divinely inspired work. STUDY IT OUT.
  
  As far as the need for proof of the supernatural is concerned…God hates that prerequisite. But if you will open your mind to the possibility that there just might be an entity who is not bound by the physical laws of time and space…that’s when God shows up. Faith must come first. I told you about my side…well that was just one of MANY unexplainable experiences I have had in my life but I believe…and because I believe…I receive.
  
  I’ve read most of your post on this thread and you said to someone else that you spent 20 years looking…well…you were looking in the wrong direction and it is your misunderstanding and ignorance of what the Bible says that makes my point.
  
  I said earlier that I don’t care whether you believe or not…I was wrong to say that…I do care…please reconsider.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on December 19, 2012 at 11:56am
  Well, that seems to be the issue. You must first “believe it possible” before “it is revealed”. I actually DID “believe it not only possible, but absolutely true”, . . . yet there was never a “revealing” of anything outside myself. And I search in humble honesty for years.
  
  As for the Old Testament stories, NO one would have any means of understanding an event that may or may not have even taken place. You aren’t even guaranteed that what YOU read is even truly accurate [and there are those who say it actually isn't]. So we are at a “who’s right” type of guessing game. I have studied such things [of which you mischaracterize me as “clearly not having done so”. You just don’t see how someone can come to an alternate opinion of the stories because you hold to your beliefs. That’s fine. You are entitled to them. But I look at the big picture, and appreciate the years of work from those who are at university level of professorship.
  
  Here’s the delema. IF your god is real, and “hates the prerequisite of showing ‘he’ is even real”, relying on the credulity of people, . . . then you can see why I am unaffected by such. As mentioned earlier, I searched for ~20 years. No “god” showed up. I reject the notion that “I was doing it wrong”. Any god who would deny a young child/youth/young adult in an honest search because “they did it wrong” is petty.
  
  Now, I DO appreciate caring about me. That’s good stuff. Ditto.
  
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universalphilos
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:19pm
Is this what the wise men knew? See what spiritual messengers of God tell us in a “parable of the man who would be pharaoh” that points us (with a short google search) toward the star, Sirus, and the ancient knowledge of the “three wise men” in Orion’s belt since the pyramids were made in exact alignment, and the Cherub (Sphinx) is facing the east. “For those who are wise to see, let them see. For those who are wise to hear, let them hear.”
See story on pages 2-6 https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzyT3fgGxb4-Z2d2RGx2MnBYbFk

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- truthnstuff
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 1:57pm
  Facts are not the same as “derived” facts.
  
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Frodo RinosBane
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:19pm
The discussion in this article is irrelevant. The “star” was an astrological appearance in a constellation. It was not something that came to rest over a town and certainly not a stable.

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- LadyLibertykicksASS
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:34pm
  No, It is YOU who is irrelevant !
  
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thegreatcarnac
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:17pm
Who says it was Sirius or Mars they were following. The ‘star’ they followed was the Shekinah glory of God. It was up in the sky directly above Bethlehem and was mistaken for a new star. It is a cloud or flaming fog of brightness and light that accompanies the presence of God.

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- Tirabi
  Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:29pm
  No need to go that far really. It could have been any number of asteroids or comets, the tail of which could have been seen as a directional arrow.
  
  Science like this is bunk really. Much like the Mythbusters crew that thinks “If we can’t do it, Archimedes certainly couldn’t” or it could never have happened by remote chance if we couldn’t do it in 100 tries.
  
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spfoam1
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:16pm
Thousands of years ago a bright light in the sky was called a star. It may have been a star by appearance and description only. Democrats call obama a messiah, and others call him a president, but that doesn’t mean he is one.

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DougHuffman
Posted on December 18, 2012 at 12:09pm
Begs the question, the meaning a la modus ponens, of ‘wise’. If they were wise within the meanings of faith, then yes.

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