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West Point Prayer Battle Sparks Church vs. State Debate Over U.S. Military ‘Religious Coercion’

Jan. 14, 2013 12:26pm Billy Hallowell

The United States Military Academy at West Point is known for its academics and prestige. Of late, the institution has come under fire, as atheist activist groups and their compatriots are taking aim at religious practices that are embedded in the academy’s culture. In December, Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU), a church-state separatist group, sent a letter complaining about invocations at official West Point events. Last week, a conservative, legal group responded, defending the ongoing tradition.

The Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) followed up on the AU’s complaint with a letter that was sent last Wednesday on behalf of the Chaplain Alliance for Religions Liberty. In it, the conservative group railed against AU’s church versus state claims, noting that the First Amendment allows public officials to America’s “religious heritage.”

“Since the Revolution, the U.S. Army has offered soldiers the opportunity to hear invocations. West Point has continued this tradition since its founding in 1802,” wrote David Hacker, Alliance Defending Freedom’s senior legal counsel. “Anti-religious groups with misguided ideas about the First Amendment should not be allowed to destroy a time-honored and perfectly constitutional American custom.”

Americans United Demands West Point Stop Official Prayers, Alliance Defending Freedom Responds

Photo Credit: AP

The ADF’s letter is a direct response to a complaint sent by AU late last year on behalf of non-believing cadets. In it, the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, the organization’s executive director, claimed that West Point violates the Constitution and the rights of cadets, alike, with its invocation practices.

“West Point cadets should be able to train for service in our nation’s military without having religion forced upon them,” Lynn noted. “Academy officials must respect the religious liberty rights of all cadets, who should be free to make their own decisions about prayer without government coercion.”

While AU made its opposition to prayer being included at holiday dinners and other official West Point events known, ADF claims that West Point does not require that cadets participate in prayers “or even listen to them.” Clearly, the debate here is over whether official events that include prayer are a means of forcing individuals into religious participation.

“The historical practice of offering prayer, especially at military and university functions at West Point, does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment,” Hacker argued in his letter combating the AU’s claims.

Photo Credit: AP

The ADF letter also noted that the Founding Fathers opened meetings with invocations and that, in the conservative legal group’s view, it is unfortunate that AU doesn’t respect this history. But the church-state separatist group isn’t likely to agree with this assessment.

AU expects a response from West Point within 30 days surrounding its charge of “religious coercion” and its request that prayers at official events stop (the initial letter was sent Dec. 19). The most recent response from ADF, though, urges the military academy to disregard the church-state separatist group’s invocation request.

West Point recently came under scrutiny on the faith and religion front after Blake Page, an atheist and a former cadet, quit attending the institution. He cited Christian proselytizing and the promotion of prayers and religion as a portion of the basis for his decision.

–

Atheist West Point Cadet Quits the Academy, Citing ‘Christian Proselytizing’ & ‘Criminal’ Constitutional Violations

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Comments (82)

Randjet
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 5:46pm
Our country is under attack from within.

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- 702TruthSeeker
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 7:21pm
  http://www.americanrhetoric.com/mp3clips/politicalspeeches/charltonhestonculturewars.mp3
  
  funny, i thought the truth had no agenda
  
  Report this comment
- teapartyconservatism
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 1:05am
  “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – Declaration of Independence
  
  Obama often omits “Creator” when speaking of our “unalienable” rights, reducing rights bestowed by God, to mere privileges permitted by politicians! Dems boisterously booed God three times at their national convention!*
  
  One of their ploys uses atheism to attack America with a false argument of separation of church and state, which is not in the Constitution! Quite the contrary, Judeo-Christian tenets form the foundation of our Constitutional Republic. If there is any valid pretense for separation of church and state at all, it is that government influence on religion is the antithesis of Christian influence on government.
  
  Fox News, Democrats BOO GOD At Convention http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUJE9YfsbNQ (9/5/2012)
  
  Wake up America!
  
  Mario Apuzzo, Esq., Barack Obama Is Ineligible to be President, For He Is Neither a “Natural Born Citizen” Nor a “Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution”
  http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2012/10/barack-obama-is-ineligible-to-be.html (October 28, 2012 & updated November 10, 2012)
  
  Report this comment
SGT Rock
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 5:32pm
Betcha if they were Muslim no one would say a thing.

#myCrusade stop the Jihad on Western civilization, Christianity and Jews.

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- Pnis
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 6:02pm
  Actually, I’m quite sure they would. Fortunately, Muslims aren’t putting their religious superstitions on public property.
  
  Report this comment
- The Third Archon
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 7:33pm
  Umm…Park 51 anyone? And that was on PRIVATE property, and conservatives threw a **** fit.
  
  Report this comment
- darthtyran
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 4:45pm
  I was in the military for 20 years and the muslims did and do force their practices on other active duty. I was forced to attend a 1.5 hour sermon by a muslim chaplain… I was told that I could not provide rebuttal to muslim, wiccan, or atheist comments made in passive conversations throughout the work place and duty sections. I challenged this unlawful order made by an atheist superior and he lost…and it was not a nice loss for him!
  
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Injunator
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:49pm
THEY USE, spirits of the earth to hear what you’re doing, saying and to irritate YOU . . . . . BUT what they don’t know is that what they do is to kindle in the fires of HELL, sent there BY God and those, His Chosen the Elect, will watch when this occurs: That is the healing part for those who are taken-up, the catching-uP (1 THESSALONIANS 4:9-17) THEN FROM ABOVE . . . . REVELATION 18-22, LEADERS AND POWER HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON “EVIL” ! THEY ARE NOT, OF GOD nor of any truth because God sent it NOT unto them . . . . . but were sent “heavy delusion” to believe the “LIE” . . . . . these are the things of God behold that you know NOW . . . . !

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PeachyinGA
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:42pm
Cadet Prayer:

O God, our Father, Thou Searcher of human hearts, help us to draw near to Thee in sincerity and truth. May our religion be filled with gladness and may our worship of Thee be natural.

Strengthen and increase our admiration for honest dealing and clean thinking, and suffer not our hatred of hypocrisy and pretence ever to diminish. Encourage us in our endeavor to live above the common level of life. Make us to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong, and never to be content with a half truth when the whole can be won. Endow us with courage that is born of loyalty to all that is noble and worthy, that scorns to compromise with vice and injustice and knows no fear when truth and right are in jeopardy. Guard us against flippancy and irreverence in the sacred things of life. Grant us new ties of friendship and new opportunities of service. Kindle our hearts in fellowship with those of a cheerful countenance, and soften our hearts with sympathy for those who sorrow and suffer. Help us to maintain the honor of the Corps untarnished and unsullied and to show forth in our lives the ideals of West Point in doing our duty to Thee and to our Country. All of which we ask in the name of the Great Friend and Master of all.

Amen

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ripley
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:40pm
If a person does not believe in what the Academy teaches or does not believe in its traditions, then they should take themselves to another college. They are getting a free education. Either shut up or get out.

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- Pnis
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:58pm
  It’s not a free education. We the people are paying for it. I don’t want my tax dollars supporting religious superstition.
  
  Report this comment
- PeachyinGA
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 7:45pm
  Cadets do not have to pay back anything for their education until they step through the threshold of their first academic class beginning their junior year (apparently some in this article have cut some special deals). It is not free(!) for those who graduate … unless you consider a military service obligation of at less-than-civilian-pay, sleeping in tents/sand/eating dehydrated meals…. and bullets and IEDs with your name on them proper compensation. It is for love of country and believe in preserving our freedoms. (And it isn’t exactly Animal House for 4 years either)
  
  Report this comment
- tootsie roll
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 9:34pm
  PNIS show us your W- I think your still in mommies basement
  
  Report this comment
- Pnis
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 10:26pm
  Show us your (sic) W? I think I’m missing something. Regardless, how about an intelligent reply as opposed to an ad hominem attack that couldn’t be farther from the truth.
  
  Report this comment
- debkk9
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 1:49pm
  Amen…if you don’t like it……..LEAVE & DON’T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ASS ON YOUR WAY OUT
  
  Report this comment
Injunator
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:40pm
NAZI MILITARY & UNITED STATES MILITARY ARE NOW THE SAME, resorting to: SOCERIES, WITCH CRAFTS, historically ALL, read these things happening by Hitler tha same is present in Our Day Now. They are not of their father who created them but of the Devil now because God gave them up to a “REPROBATE MINDS” (ROMANS 1:23-28) . . . . BEHOLD, DEUTERONOMY 28:1,15-68, EZEKIEL 14 OCCUR NOW and ZEPHANIAH 3:8 ” IT IS DONE” AS jESUS SPAKE JUST BEFORE He, died nailed to the tree by the EVIL pricipalities of the World, of Satan their father ! So now the Father pours out his wrath upon the heathen, unto all the kingdoms of the world, PSALMS 79:6—- Do you really believe that the Father will NOT recompense His only begotten Son Jesus ? And those who are marred with the reviling and presecutions of YOU and YOUR World ! No ! He shall devour the earth with the fire of His jealousy !

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helioquois
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:20pm
When the US Congress opens for business, do they not open with a prayer? Seems as if there is no conflict with the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. Why doesn’t AU’s Barry Linn engage Congress first instead of going to West Point?

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Falcon05dad
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 2:36pm
In 2011, the United States Air Force Academy caved to pressure and built an outdoor Stonehenge-like area so “Earth religions” could worship. I’m sure the Naval Academy will be pushed by anti-Christian organizations soon, if it has not already been.

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- Locked
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 3:48pm
  I’m not sure of your point. They also have a Cadet Chapel. Are you saying that it was wasteful to have an outdoor theater, but not wasteful to build a chapel?
  
  The costs for each are interesting too. Comparatively, in current currency, the Chapel cost $25 million; the Falcon Square cost less than $52,000.
  
  Report this comment
alexegz30
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 2:13pm
The only “Separation” intended by the founders was to keep the government from restricting any religion. There was never any intent to cut out religion in any way.

The only people who think such a thing was intended is the god haters who want to force their own non-beliefs on others.

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alinskythis
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:57pm
Check out Common Core, that man’s education curriculum, teaching “Allah is God,” and Wicca!

Obama interested in ‘Allah-is-God’ curriculum

CSCOPE lessons promote Islam, teaching conversion methods and presenting verses from the Quran that denigrate other faiths. In CSCOPE curriculum, the Boston Tea Party is likened to an act of terrorism on par with 9/11. In the wake of the Newtown massacre, the Second Amendment is portrayed as a “collective,” not an individual right, despite the Supreme Court’s recent rulings to the contrary.

The CSCOPE website has posted a response to concerns about certain lesson plans, including an extensive discussion of the Boston Tea Party. But critics say that such lessons should never have appeared in the first place.

Sources within the Texas education system recently informed WND that Wicca, thought by many to be akin to witchcraft, was being taught in CSCOPE curriculum alongside Christianity, but was removed before the news media could access it, a fact which represents one of the biggest concerns for followers of CSCOPE.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/obama-interested-in-allah-is-god-curriculum/#3B3sbIsBUFlD6mIB.99

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- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 2:39pm
  Islam and Wicca are so far from being similar that it is highly amusing.
  
  Report this comment
Tom Ballard
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:25pm
ItIs time the fathful fights back, In the strongest way possible

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- jcldwl
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:37pm
  Absolutely. They freedom from religion people are doing nothing but stepping all over our freedom of religion. But, hey God wins in the end and they won’t need a parka where they are going to spend eternity.
  
  Report this comment
Halo9x
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:10pm
If God is completely removed from our military, then you will have Nazi Germany! A military with no basis for making moral decisions. If and when that happens, then it will be easier to turn the military on the people and turn America into a police state more than it already is.

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- Remember_Benghazi
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 4:13pm
  The Nazis had “Gott mit uns” inscribed onto their belt buckles. It means “God with us.” The Catholic church also celebrated Hitler’s birthday until 1945. Try harder next time.
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 1:30am
  I love when people are COMPLETELY ignorant of history.
  
  As someone already said, their belt buckles said “God on our side.”
  
  and the Nazi allegiance oath was
  
  ,”"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath.”"
  
  Yup, that’s secular all right.
  
  Absolute nonsense.
  
  Report this comment
ghemminger
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:07pm
As a graduate of West Point (along with my uncle and younger brother), never was I “coerced” in to attending or reciting religious prayers, etc. Indeed, I am a Christian. But you are free to do as you choose. If you don’t want to pray, fine, no problem. Just be respectful for that moment while others exercise THEIR rights. Being quiet for a moment or two isn’t a violation of your freedoms.

Liberals/progressives continue to degrade those institutions that represent our ideal….I believe the military is in their cross hairs now…

CPT, AR, 1st ID (’96 – ’01)

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- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:11pm
  btw – he lies when he states that he elected to leave partly over his feelings of being forced to endure christianity….once you start your junior year, you are committed to serve in the military. If you are dismissed prior to graduation, you will serve as an enlisted person in the Army. The only way you don’t have to serve if you are dismissed early is due to a medical discharge (I can’t recall any other reason that early dismissal won’t require you to serve).
  
  so this punk was being booted out for medical reasons and wanted to grab the spotlight…I can only hope he never shows up for a class reunion….
  
  Report this comment
- PeachyinGA
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 2:49pm
  GHEMM, he got a sweetheart deal. He already knew he was going to be allowed to graduate but was not going to receive his commissioning as an officer AND he doesn’t have to pay back the hundreds of thousands of dollars at we paid for his past 3.5 years of education. Some ivy league liberal college will snap him up, offering him a free ride.
  
  Report this comment
- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 3:07pm
  I believe I previously read that he is allowed to graduate, but will be medically discharged from the army. So, his diploma will say US Military Academy on it….at least, that’s what’s running around the Academy graduate pages….
  
  Report this comment
commonsensechristian
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:07pm
This has been going on since 1802 – interesting since many of those who signed the constitution were still alive – yet said nothing about public prayer being unconstitutional. Makes you wonder why so many in our current era are so dense as to think that religion was intended to be barred from the public square. Or, perhaps they are like Barry Lind who very well knows this fact, but chooses to ignore it.

Well done West Point! If you don’t display courage in this most basic of constitutional rights, who will?

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john vincent
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:06pm
Cadets are offended becaus God is invoked? This song has grown old, and they with ulterior motives have taken advantage of an issue that really is clear.’ ‘Church and state’ does not mean God is to be separated. It merely means the state is not to sponsor a religion, which lo and behold it does not, (however certain ones have Islam in view)

For God’s sake, you cant say ‘God bless you’ when you sneeze without somebody making a federal case. The unbelieving cadets could ask their own god to bless them; ask a tree, ask a radial tire, or whatever. This topic is tiresome to a thinking person, but fodder for the weak.

Along theses line, the post below address this same thing in humour and sarcasm. Somebody is always offended…too bad

http://sienna48.blog.com/2010/12/22/so-you-are-offended-too-bad/

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- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:22pm
  to be honest, it’s not “cadets” are offended, but rather a couple of pogues wanting attention. As a graduate, I would say that WP has a very strong Christian following….not due to the official bureaucracy, but rather a large concentration of people with strong Christian beliefs, go-getters, leaders, etc., all found in a small geography. Christian/faith-based activities, to my knowledge, were not officially or financially supported by the Academy, but rather by private donations (the alumni database is quite extensive and has done well financially)….
  
  and yet, we produce leaders of character who serve the common defense. if Christianity is an informal cornerstone in that mission, shouldn’t that be cherished?
  
  Report this comment
- john vincent
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:25pm
  @ghemm
  
  strong points
  +1
  
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- PeachyinGA
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 2:25pm
  GHEMM. You are spot on. Most of these future officers find great comfort in their religious faiths as they are only a few years away from facing the enemy on the battlefield. The military academies are being used to move the progressive agenda along. These groups actually have contempt for the military.
  
  Report this comment
barber2
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:05pm
No one is forced to attend West Point. Case closed.

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RANGER1965
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:02pm
Atheism is a faith based religion, by any standard you wish to set.

Belief in an absence with 0 empirical proof is an act of faith. It’s as simple as that.

Few Atheists are honest enough to admit that, the ones that are; quickly become agnostics. They say things like: “There might, or might not be a God, I just don’t know.”

That is at least a respectable, and honest statement. The true atheist howver claims to “Know” that there isn’t a God, and his claims are based on…faith.

I guess it’s true that hypocricy knows no limits.

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- GodHatesFigs
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:12pm
  Most atheists I know, including myself, fall into the category of “agnostic atheist.” Meaning, we lack the belief in any gods, but do not claim to know with certainty that there are no gods.
  Theism is about belief, gnosticism is about knowledge.
  
  Report this comment
- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:14pm
  and yet, there are no atheists in a foxhole….funny, everyone finds God when inbound artillery is landing about you….
  
  Report this comment
- GodHatesFigs
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:29pm
  Pat Tillman? There are no chaplains in foxholes.
  
  Report this comment
- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:43pm
  what is that supposed to mean (Pat Tillman)?
  
  my point, you might convey your agnostic atheism or whatever. but, when your cards are called, chances are, you’ll be calling out to God…
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:49pm
  “Atheism is a faith based religion, by any standard you wish to set. ”
  
  No clergy or structural hierarchy
  No religious text
  No rituals
  No houses of worship
  No belief in the supernatural
  
  Hard atheism might be founded on faith (“God doesn’t exist” is a statement of faith because it’s impossible to prove a negative), but it is nowhere near any of the criteria for a religion any more than, say, a 4-H club is a religion.
  
  And I say “hard atheism” because any atheists I’ve ever spoken with will usually clarify their stance to saying “Well, I’ve seen no proof for God, so I think it’s impossibly unlikely that He exists.” That’s more agnostic atheism than actual atheism.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:53pm
  @ghemminger
  
  “what is that supposed to mean (Pat Tillman)?”
  
  Pat Tillman was an American football player killed by friendly fire in2004 while serving in Afghanistan. He was also vocal about his atheism.
  
  Report this comment
- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 3:14pm
  I’m aware of who Pat Tillman was. I will continue to stand by my statement….there are no atheists in foxholes….you find religion and God real quick…but, atheists can cling to their beliefs (or lack thereof) while on their comfy couch when not immediately confronted with the precipice of meeting their Maker….
  
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- Locked
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 3:45pm
  @Ghemminger
  
  “I’m aware of who Pat Tillman was.”
  
  Apparently you aren’t. He was an atheist who never rejected his atheism while in war. So either you didn’t know who he was, or you’re blatantly lying when you said “I will continue to stand by my statement….there are no atheists in foxholes….you find religion and God real quick…”
  
  Report this comment
jackact
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:57pm
So when American troops are captured on Jihadist battlefields throughout the middle east I assume that each American captive receives a King James Bible of his/her choice, a rosary or crucifix, a comfy rug to say their prayers on and a tasty meal of their own culture; all financed by the taxpayers of the respective country in the middle east where they were captured?
…Or do they get their heads chopped off?
Wake up Dummies.

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Walkabout
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:54pm
If an invocation is given, a person can use that moment to contemplate & make affirmation to do good that have nothing to with a specific religion or denomination.

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momrules
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:53pm
West Point is not guilty of * religious coercion * but the atheists are guilty of anti God coercion. This is their message………No God, no Jesus, no Bible and no prayer within earshot of an atheist or we will take you to court………..that is coercion or in other words, blackmail.

Changing American traditions and removing God from America is the aim of these antiGod zealots.

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Walkabout
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:51pm
All speeches after a victory have 3 parts.

1. “yay we won.”,
2. “Give thanks to God(s)” & a
3. Reminder to not get cocky.

Religion is part of war. You can have a religion without war. But going to war without religion, is about as stupid as living without religion. 1984 shows what happens when you don’t have religion. People are just parts of a machine in such a case.

I bet even a communist such as Mao observed religious traditions after his son was killed during an air raid in the rear area during the Korean War. It might not look like much to an atheist, but I bet Mao observed the traditions & meant it.

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- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:08pm
  there are no atheists in a foxhole during an artillery barrage….
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 2:48pm
  Even if that were true [no atheists in foxholes], which it isn’t [there have been atheist soldier], . . . that wouldn’t make the proclaimation true. Just the human brain working through the stages of grief, specifically, “bargaining”.
  
  Report this comment
- ghemminger
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 3:18pm
  @Devon – you missed the point of my post (which was, btw, half joking)….when you are confronted with the prospects of combat, a lot of things that seem so obvious become blurred and the realization that you aren’t in control and could quite possibly be ended instantaneously strikes you between the eyes….
  
  like i said, not a lot of atheists in foxholes when receiving incoming arty….it changes your perspective on your beliefs :)
  
  Report this comment
- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 3:35pm
  No, I got the point you were making. I just happen to disagree with it. There have been non-religious soldiers in battle that have not “called upon a god” when death seemed emminent. The “no atheists in foxholes” is just a statement with no teeth.
  
  Report this comment
PeachyinGA
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:50pm
If we let AU succeed in removing prayer at West Point, it won’t stop there. All of the Churches and religious meeting places will be “re-purposed”, no need for military Chaplains…. It will be the continued unraveling of all of America’s service academies where emphasis is on training military leadership.

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- Walkabout
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:56pm
  That I believe.
  
  Report this comment
DadRocked
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:48pm
“Anti-religious groups with misguided ideas about the First Amendment should not be allowed to destroy a time-honored and perfectly constitutional American custom.”

I salute that quote…

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IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:44pm
I have more faith in God, Doesn’t it seem the atheist sure like to cause trouble and wants a religion free world. It isn’t going to happen because of our faith in God. If we listen to God and have ethics, morals and practice the ten commandment, we would not have all this trouble we have seen in the last few years.

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- Witness1974
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:00pm
  Atheism is a religion. In fact, it requires more faith to believe there is no God that it does to believe there is. They have absolutely no evidence to support their faith, and yet they cling to it. Christians have the testimony of creation, which is so obviously by design. We also have scripture which reveals God as no man could imagine Him. And then there is the little matter of Jesus Christ, who claimed to be God incarnate, and was raised from the dead to prove it. Atheists only have what they believe in–nothing. They sure are a thin-skinned bunch. They can’t even stand the mention of God without melting down. They are also a tyrannical folk, who would have everyone else remain silent while they remain free to spew their non-sense and act as thought police. May the Lord convert those who would be converted and reward the rest according to their works.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:08pm
  Witness. . . . are you done with the strawman fallacies?
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 1:55pm
  @Witness
  
  “Atheism is a religion.”
  
  It’s not even close to a religion. Hard atheism is a belief, but a belief doesn’t not make something a religion. And most atheists are actually agnostic athists: less “There is no God” and more “there is no proof of God.”
  
  Come on man. You’re making us Christians look bad.
  
  Report this comment
- Witness1974
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 5:08pm
  I simply disagree. Atheism has all the marks of religion, faith, a story of beginnings (evolution), a deity (the self), doctrine, and a rather vociferous priesthood. A-theism means against or the notion of God. There is a whole ranger of beliefs about God, Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, and full on believers. I am well aware of that. In this case we are discussing atheists. Agnostics are not atheists, Deists, are not atheists, but atheists are atheists. And finally the only one making you look bad is yourself. Making declarations and hurling accusations are not arguments.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 5:35pm
  Witness, . . . allow me to point out the fallacies:
  
  1. It does not “require more faith to believe there is no god than TO believe in a god”. There is plenty of verifiable evidence that supports natural mechanisms of the earth and universe. No “mystery” or “mystical” forces necessary.
  
  2. There is no “testimony of creation”, particularly if you’re talking about a “6 day creation, roughly 6,000 years ago”. The idea of “design” has been addressed before. It may LOOK “designed”, but biologists understand how functions came to be. Plus, there are things that, if designed, were designed horribly.
  
  3. Saying that a book, which makes claims that are unprovable, are “evidence for it”, is circular.
  
  4. Atheists don’t “believe in nothing”.
  
  5. Atheists are not tyrannical!
  
  6. Atheist do not want to silence you in your personal/private/church life. There are times for certain things. There are times when they are not appropriate.
  
  One may say [on some level] that HARD atheism can only be a “belief”. But atheism is as much a religion as “OFF” is a TV station. Many sports fanatics seem to have similar characteristics to “religion”. Are sports teams “a religion”?
  
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- Witness1974
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 5:54pm
  Devon: This is a big subject and I can’t do it justice here.
  
  However what you are saying is that once you make the leap of faith required to believe in naturalism and evolution, you have plenty of evidence for atheism.
  
  If you can’t see design in the diversity of creatures, I don’t know how to make you see it.
  
  The Bible has more textual evidence than Homer. More brilliant minds than ours have studied it for thousands of years and concluded it is true.
  
  Atheists believe in nothing, that is, in no God, in no after-life. But you are right they do believe in their doctrine of origins.
  
  If atheists are tyrannical they will do until tyrants come along. They do in fact want to silence Christians by diriving discourse about religion into churches and their aim is to keep it private. If you knew anything about Christianity, you would know that this is directly opposed to the command of Christ to spread the Gospel and make disciples.
  
  Gotta go to work, bye.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 6:10pm
  @Witness
  
  If you’re going to stretch the definition that much, almost any club or group is a religion. Habitat for Humanity. 4-H Clubs, College Republicans; you could stretch their definitions in a manner similar to what you did, and you’d call them all religions too.
  
  Atheism fails at the most basic prerequisite for being considered a religion: it doesn’t have a belief in something supernatural. Such a condition is the exact opposite of the concept of atheism.
  
  As I said before, this kind of thinking is making us Christians look bad. Take the high road and don’t act like a fool.
  
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- Witness1974
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 2:51am
  Locked: Last I checked 4-H did not qualify as a world view. Atheism does. It is not an apt comparison.
  
  If you are a Christian perhaps you should look at Mt 5:22.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 7:25am
  @Witness
  
  Quite right. I should have called you uneducated. The passage doesn’t apply to me however, as I am not angry at you – I just know you’re wrong and you refuse to admit it due to your pride.
  
  … but, I still prefer the term fool. Seems less insulting.You should look at Proverbs 18:2, as it fits you to a T.
  
  Speaking of T, like Mr. T would say to you, “I pity the fool!”
  
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- Witness1974
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 1:00pm
  Locked: I took the trouble to read your last ten entries on this forum. It seems you are quite an apologist for atheism. I have to ask myself why you would spend so much energy in that direction along with demeaning Christians. You don’t know a thing about me except that I am a Christian. I think that alone is the cause of your insulting hostility. I think it best we not address one another again.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on January 15, 2013 at 2:05pm
  @Witness
  
  “It seems you are quite an apologist for atheism.”
  
  Depending on what articles they were for, it would probably appear that way. However, my posts are actually correcting my fellow Christians because when Christian posters make my faith look foolish, it only reinforces those who hold their non-belief as superior.
  
  In other words – I think we must prove outselves to be superior or we’ve let the atheists and non-believers feel vindicated in their disdain. Don’t you agree?
  
  “I have to ask myself why you would spend so much energy in that direction along with demeaning Christians.”
  
  I don’t demean anyone. If you think that being corrected when you speak (either in error, ignorance, or through lies) is demeaning, I’m sorry you have a thin skin.
  
  “You don’t know a thing about me except that I am a Christian.”
  
  And that you can’t admit when you’re wrong, at least in this case. If I’ve only seen you at your worst, then forgive me for responding to you.
  
  “I think that alone is the cause of your insulting hostility.”
  
  You misspelled “hostility” as “honesty.” As a Christian I seek only the truth – and demand the same from anyone else who calls himself a follower of Christ. Someone who lies isn’t following Christ. Especially if they lie and pretend that’s what Christ would want.
  
  “I think it best we not address one another again.”
  
  If that’s your wish, then you simply need not respond :-)
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 25, 2013 at 9:48am
  Test. . . . . this story hasn’t been accepting my replies.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on January 25, 2013 at 10:28am
  Wow! Finally! A little late, but I have to post.
  
  There is no “leap of faith” when it comes to evolution and [particularly] understanding via the scientific method. Evidence of what is true has no agenda, nor can it be “faith-ed” into existence.
  
  There is diversity. It is a product of species ability to adapt to changing environments. No “design” in it.
  
  There may be textual evidence. A place. A person. Such things may have found their way into the overall work of fiction. Other religions have done the same thing. So, you can have true locations/people, . . . but that doesn’t make the supernatural/magic claims [therefore] true.
  
  “Atheists believe in nothing” is a strawman. By qualifying it with “when it comes to god/afterlife” doesn’t make it better WHEN you still use the phrase right before it.
  
  I have no “doctrine of origins”.
  
  I have no issue with your religious faith, your church, or your freedom to keep it in your private life, . . . or even if you personally wish to share it publically [if done with your own personal money]. I DO know it is “the great commission”. I was a christian for ~20 years [Assemblies of God].
  
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1_Smoot_Tall
Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:39pm
1/14/2012

Did you ever notice that atheists cannot prove love exists yet they profess to love their families?

More importantly, atheists do not believe in an afterlife. So they think their Earth-time is all they will get, right? So why do they waste so much of it trying to destroy religion and offend the religious including here on the Blaze? How can they justify to their children one day why they spent their limited Earth-time away from them?

I think they actually have the same healthy degree of doubt/faith that goes with all belief systems. But, unlike the faithful, they get trapped in a cycle of escalation as they try harder and harder to convince others (in order to feel secure in their beliefs) that their lack of faith can be justified and proven if only enough people come along and sink with them.

Or they are emissaries/useful idiots of the Adversary and are trying to destroy The One True God out of service to the god of their choosing.

Pray for them but do not give in to them, their way leads to destruction.

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- Bluebonnet
  Posted on January 14, 2013 at 12:54pm
  Please Lord, help us. I don’t want to know anything about the unbelievers.
  
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