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‘Morally Wrong’: Catholic Hospital Admits It Was Against Christian Teaching for Lawyers to Argue Fetus Isn’t a Human Being
DENVER (TheBlaze/AP) — A Catholic hospital on Monday acknowledged it was “morally wrong” for its attorneys to argue in court that a fetus is not a human being under Colorado law. This development comes after TheBlaze, among other outlets, first covered the story late last month.
The admission comes after executives of Catholic Healthcare Initiatives met with Colorado’s Roman Catholic bishops to discuss its defense in a wrongful death lawsuit filed after a mother and her unborn twins died in the emergency room of St Thomas More Medical Center in Canon City in 2006.
Disclosure of the hospital’s successful legal arguments last month drew sharp criticism because they appeared to contradict church doctrine that life begins at conception. Colorado’s bishops vowed to review the case. Catholic Healthcare Initiatives operates Thomas More and dozens of other Catholic hospitals.
Photo Credit: AP
In joint statements released Monday morning, the Bishops and CHI said the operation was “unaware” of the lawyers’ legal arguments. They said that CHI executives acknowledged “it was morally wrong” to make that contention because it “directly contradicts the moral teachings of the Church.”
The statements also noted that, while the legal status of the fetus was key to getting the case dismissed before trial, the hospital also won on appeal by arguing there was no proof that medical error caused the fetuses’ deaths. The father of the unborn children is asking the Colorado Supreme Court to hear the case.
The Bishops and CHI extended their condolences to the family. They also pledged to pursue stronger legal protections for unborn children.
“Catholic healthcare institutions are, and should, be held to the high standard of Jesus Christ himself, who is our divine and eternal healer,” said the Bishops’ statement.
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Comments (78)
wowjustwow
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 10:06pmThis is the same religion that facilitated pedophiles going under the radar after raping and abusing defenseless children. After that, what can they do that is shocking. I was raised Catholic, but I no longer consider myself Catholic.
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Chuck Stein
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 11:57pmThey can still make this right — have their lawyers agree to letting the Colo. Supreme Ct. hear the case AND stipulate that the part of the decision regarding the status of the fetus was decided in error.
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DeOppressoLiber
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 12:29amThis is typical with the Catholics. I was raised RC but I do not want anything to do with them. Please just go join the progressives.
I love to watch catholics leaving mass it looks like the old start to the LeMans when the drivers had to run to their car and then start the race.
How can you take a religion seriously when it argues against its own core beliefs so it will not have to pay money? The Catholic church has no Honor, and catholics who still give to it have none either.
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Buzz_Lightyear
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 7:01amSorry, but the religion did not condone it. People who made mistakes condoned it.
It is also the same church whose members minister to AIDS patients around the world.
Remember Mother Teresa?
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Locked
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 8:54am@wowjustwow
I’m not a Catholic, but this is definitely not indicative of the views of the larger Church; only of this particular hospital. Blaming the entire church would be like saying Westboro Baptist Church is indicative of all Baptists.
They should still rightly be called out on their hypocrisy and the damage their stance will likely do in other cases involved religiously affiliated businesses, but it’s clear to everyone involved that the Catholic church doesn’t condone their actions.
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Verceofreason
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 3:20pmFollow the money. The Catholic church is more corrupt than the Republican Party.
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YOURSENSEI
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 8:58pmThis is what you must know:
The Catholic church doesn’t believe in morality. That’s why Pastor John Hagee, Glenn’s good buddy and spiritual advisor, called the Catholic church the “Great whore” and a “godless theology.”
It is so.
It is so.
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702TruthSeeker
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 10:22pmit has nothing to do with the Catholic church, it has to do with deconstruction of all existing power structures
its the anarchists/socialists destroying the foundation of society so they can build something better because they see everything that exists right now as flawed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society
the catholic church is as corrupt on morals and values as everyone else is. most people just want to take the path of least resistance and don’t stand for anything. “what’s in it for me?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism
it so easy to just blame the fed, blame the church, blame the government, all these organizations are a reflection of THE PEOPLE
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wowjustwow
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 10:31pmTo 702, it has EVERYTHING to do with the Catholic Church. You can post links until you’re blue in the face, but this is the same institution that has continuously allowed children to be raped and their rapists to be shielded. PLUS, they are held to a higher standard. The Catholic Church has been dirty for centuries. I’m not talking about Catholics in general; I am talking about the activities of the Church.
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mycomet123
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 7:58amIf that is what John Hagee is preaching–I am GREATLY OFFENDED by his remarks. Talk about religious persecution.
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Luke21
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 8:50am@WOW,
You shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss 702’s assertion. There is merit to his/her argument. In fact, the organization that you yourself describe sounds a lot like congress (& perhaps even a past president) – which is to 702’s point. All of these “organizations” reflect our society.
Sensei – pastor Hagee needs to pay closer attention to current events and what the Word of God says regarding the church in the last days and in particular what Christ said to the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3. Calling the bride of Christ a “whore” is not his place – and if you want to bring “wrath”, calling someone else’s bride a “whore” is a good way to do it.
Hagee appears to confuse the whore of Babylon w/ the Roman Catholic church. While the church of Thyatira most certainly seems to describe the RCC, Mr. Hagee needs to remember the ave modern US protestant/evangelical/mega church is best described by Laodicea which Christ had nothing good to say & in fact said He would vomit them out of His mouth.
The biblical description of Mystery Babylon the great harlot looks much more like the US than the RCC (& if we are witnessing the climax of His-story, then the US is the only candidate that presently fits all the prophecies). It is well past the time for the church in America to drop to her knees & repent before the Lord. Or as Jesus Himself said 7 times in Revelation 2-3 “he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
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Verceofreason
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 3:22pmThey protected priests to hold on to the moola too!
They are a wonderfulflying spaghetti monster-fearing organization.
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Mike76
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 8:50pmThis is just further confirmation of what I have begun to believe over the last 12 years. Ideology and moral/social/political “values” are just trappings of convenience. It’s all a load of B.S. the minute it gets in the way of someone getting what you want. There is no Conservative or Progressive or secular or religious – just people who will do anything to win – people who will take any position just to be part of a crowd that tells them they are right. Show me a man who has honest, steadfast principles and never wavers from them, no matter what is going on around him. Just one. I only need to see one to believe, but there are none left.
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Luke21
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 9:56pmJust one? Jesus Christ – He who is, who was, and is to come. He’s is that man you’re looking for, He alone is uniquely qualified. So, are you going to keep your promise to believe? Or will you be just like those you so dislike?
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media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 8:43pmMichael Berry’s not contrary,
of the USA, not by DNA,
pointing the way,
gonna lead the day,
Glenn Beck stopped and prayed,
you can laugh and sneer,
about those in fear,
but you can’t deny,
the miracle here,
it’s not about the rich,
or a car in a ditch,
it’s about America,
the home of the free,
and a budget to be,
political morals and,
ethics, that is properly need?
We can hear you now?
Rush Limbaugh’s Cigar Puffing,
Glenn Beck ain’t scared of nothing,
You can cuss and fuss
You can pout and plead
but you can’t stop reading blogs like these
We’re just behaving,
pumping out the snips,
gonna jam with hits,
for the kids who ain’t tricked,
just you wait and see,
if you want some fun,
come drink some tea,
if by two, its good you’ll see,
Mr. Limbaugh’s neat,
Glenn Beck’s on track,
Sean Hannity’s got your back,
talking up the facts,
stay tuned in, have fun you’ll see?
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wowjustwow
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 10:10pmAm I the only person who is going to tell this person that this is annoying?
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mycomet123
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 7:59am@WOWJUSTWOW, Apparently so!
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media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 8:29pmMark Levin will write the text books,
just you wait and see,
they might cuss and fuss,
they might pout and plead,
but it was you who won the fight by need?
Report this comment
media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 8:25pmHa ha,
Glenn Beck’s Back,
the cloud is lifting,
to save the drifting,
with all persistance,
You knew he’d do that,
so hit the phone app,
we’re coming back,
cuase we love our home,
with dozens of clips,
and plenty of tips,
dazzle their wits,
with the common sense bits
oh we told you, do not wait,
question the wisdom they fake?
We can hear you now?
Rush Limbaugh’s Cigar Puffing,
Glenn Beck ain’t scared of nothing,
You can cuss and fuss
You can pout and plead
but you can’t stop reading blogs like these
We’re just behaving,
pumping out the snips,
gonna jam with hits,
for the kids who ain’t tricked,
just you wait and see,
if you want some fun,
come drink some tea,
if by two, its good you’ll see,
Mr. Limbaugh’s he’s neat,
Glenn Beck’s on track,
Sean Hannity’s got your back,
talking up the facts,
stay tuned in, have fun, you’ll see?
Report this comment
Verceofreason
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 3:24pmEdna Vincent Getlaid, I presume?
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The Third Archon
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 7:51pm“‘MORALLY WRONG’: CATHOLIC HOSPITAL ADMITS IT WAS AGAINST CHRISTIAN TEACHING FOR LAWYERS TO ARGUE FETUS ISN’T A HUMAN BEING”
Against Christian teaching? Maybe. Legally savvy strategy? Definitely.
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TEARS FOR AMERICA
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 7:12pmThe ultimate deception…reminds me of Planned Parenthood…it is just a blob of tissue…nothing to see here…all for the love of money and greed…
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Salamander
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 6:38pmA lawyer will argue ANYTHING for the sheer exercise of it! The truth turns to rubber in their hands! The false takes on the appearance of truth! Watching lawyers argue the wrong side of truth in court is a sight to behold! BEWARE–one day, YOU MIGHT BE THE VICTIM! I WAS!
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wowjustwow
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 10:26pmIf you are even suggesting that the Catholic Church didn’t know the argument the attorney would be using, then I have a bridge to sell you. Nobody believes that.
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argonautS166
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 5:23pmSo AFTER they won the case they came out against their own argument? I don’t have a problem with catholics, except for being so far to the left for some reason. but this surely sounds like hypocrites at work. and will only give christian haters ever more ammo to use against us.
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JohnJoseph
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 4:20pmIt doesn’t matter what any “lawyer”, any “Supreme Court”, any “politician”, and “denomination” says – it what God says. The saying “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” is not actually correct. The saying should be “God said it, that settles it”! As mere humans we are not in any position to argue against God! One scripture that God says:
Jeremiah 1:5–Before I formed thee (Jeremiah) in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
If a person is truthful – God says that before Jeremiah or any baby is formed (that starts at conception), that God knew Jeremiah and any baby. Also, before Jeremiah or any other baby is formed God has already called that person for His purpose.
Therefore, you can call it a “fetus” all you want, it is a human being.
Just as Jeremiah was born and became the prophet that called him to be before he was formed. Just imagine that a baby that was aborted God could have called to a founder of a certain disease (for example, cancer). Therefore, man could have killed a person that God meant to help all mankind.
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Jonassss
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:51pmNot morally wrong nor in favor of any law. It is against reality.
What else can it be if not human? A tomato?
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702TruthSeeker
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:49pmjust keep playing your easiest road/non-confrontational/go with the flow/post tribulation rapture games and you will matter even less than you already do. Since when do real Christians just go with the flow? Whatever happened to standing up against evil? cowards….
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702TruthSeeker
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 7:04pmcorrection, pre-trib: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
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maroon67
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:48pmI am Catholic and proudly stand behind it. However, I am disappointed in not in my faith but the faith of others who stand behind the name but who do not follow the Catholic teachings. You saw this in 50% voting for Obama. We are split and yes I hate to admit it, but we will prevail in the end once we filter through the corruption of our times as we have for the last 2000 years. Man created religion, but God gave you the gift of faith. Use it. Believe. We are all humans and we all error. God Bless
If you want to read a good book on Communism infiltrating the Catholic Church, then read AA-1025
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sjpru
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 4:42pmEXACTLY…THE CHURCH — MY CHURCH – HAS BEEN THE DEMOCRATS USEFUL IDIOT FOR 50 YEARS…as previously stated the church allowed liberals to turn charity into social justice and it has been downhill ever since…i’m impressed the colorado clergy actually spoke up on the right side of this issue… but nothing will change until the church excommunicates politicians who promote, support and advance the democrats murder agenda of abortion and euthanasia.
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breedofthe45
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:48pmLadies and Gentlemen…Welcome to another lovely day at the Socialist Godless Arena where Separation From Christianity and State must be a Commandment but Separation From State and Christianity does not exist. How convenient, damn Socialists, they have it all and they never paid for it.
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mycomet123
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 5:15pmTruth of the matter is there are no voids in the spiritual realm & there is no true separation of church in state. The country’s church in America is atheisim. America’s government (as it stands right now) is an atheisit government where currently Obama is playing God.
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dangergirl
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:33pmI’m a lifelong Catholic. I’ve challenged my archdiocese (-in person) on positions they’ve taken and causes they’ve endorsed that directly conflict with church doctrine. They endorse and work with social justice organizations (- many taught by Gamaliel foundation acolytes). They also either totally ignore or endorse the ties these organizations have with radical marxist, communist, pro abortion, pro same sex marriage organizations that funnel money through fund drive campaigns to the church. I showed page after page of evidence proving this to a bishop in our archdiocese and was met with no response by him. I left the meeting in tears. The Catholic church has much to answer for in many regards. And no, it most definitely does not make me happy to say this, but it is the truth.
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bizzeebee1
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 10:58pmSame here. I have been Catholic my whole life. I am really having issues with them regarding the current trends within the leadership. The priest at my mom’s parish frequently talks about “social justice.” My old parish is embracing “green” activities. If the Church is the “Body of Christ,” then he’s getting social cancer. Corruption is abound from the top down. I see it and so do others. You are not alone. Moral fibers are being frayed every day. Those that know Truth with have to unite and stand against the machines of Socialism and Communism.
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Ghandi was a Republican
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:19pmIt’s only a baby depending on whether you want it dead or alive. That’s pretty much the law since Roe.
There is something fundamentally wrong with taking money from those who do not agree with this so that abortionists can become fat cat millionaires through a scam like PP. Scam I say- because NONE of those tax dollars seem to be going to teach their ‘clients’ how to avoid inseminating an egg only available a couple days a Month.
Epic Fail
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Locked
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:01pmIt’s so much easier to ask for forgiveness after winning a case than it is to stick by your morals from the start. At least they admitted their hypocrisy… a month late.
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Cavallo
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:15pmSo are they also engaged in capitalism, or advocating for free men to be freely armed? I hope not, that might upset their guy in Rome.
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strawberry411a
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:20pmExactly. Lying bunch of power brokers just like any other secular institution.
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DogTags
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:39pmClients do not always know the types of arguments their lawyers are making. The lawyers in this case, however, probably should have recognized the type of argment they were making would run counter to their client’s convictions. Those lawyers should have cleared the line of argument before presenting it in court. (If they did, then shame on the Catholic hospital.)
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Locked
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:52pm@Dogtags
“Clients do not always know the types of arguments their lawyers are making… Those lawyers should have cleared the line of argument before presenting it in court. (If they did, then shame on the Catholic hospital.)”
In a general case, I’d agree. Joe Shmoe off the street is more worried about winning his case than how his lawyer is going to argue.
But when you’re the nation’s second-largest faith-based health system and running a hospital where a wrongful death settlement can easily cost MILLIONS, it’s incredibly naive to think that the hospital had no idea how their own lawyers would argue a case, or that the lawyers would not know if their arguments would run counter to the very core of the hospital’s religious beliefs.
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RaydocX
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 5:15pmand the murderers who get off saying ‘i didn’t do it’… i can think of a couple hi profile ones…
they’re peachy keen in the eyes of MSM and the Left… ‘leave the poor girl alone’ says goo ol’ jose baez…
if the legal argument can be made and protect the institution– any institution– is it immoral not to make it and cost money that could save other patients?
we don’t have all of the information available, since the hospital cant release patient information… when that law gets lifted in cases where the plaintiff or his lawyer go to the press to try to swing a settlement i may give this some consideration.
the insinuation is that the hospital/ docs in question set about trying to kill this woman and her unborn child… it’s ridiculous on its face. but juries see the big cold hospital and feel sorry for the family and judgments result.
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strawberry411a
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 5:48pmLawyers represent their clients stance on ANY issue: criminal or civil. They had to have discussed the case with their “client”. The idea that the left hand didn’t know what the right was doing won’t cut it. This case DEFINED the issue of abortion and the Catholic’s stance on it and they BLEW it.
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RANGER1965
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:51pmThis is not the lawyer’s fault, who was likely an independent contractor.
It was the hospital’s duty to inform the lawyer if there were positions he could not take. It might have helped if the hospital hired only Catholic lawyers.
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HelloWorld
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:03pmI wish people understood how this works. Believe me the hospital knew what these individuals were going to argue. They go over the pleadings before they are submitted to the court. Don’t let the hospital and it’s attorney’s off of the hook here. They have been operating in a gray area for a long time. They are just starting to get caught.
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ReallySeriouslyNoWay
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 5:29pmThe hospital knew what the legal argument was going to be, but the Church did not. I’m glad the Church said SOMETHING on this subject, but it would have been much nicer and more consistent if the Church asked that the case go back to the first court, and made clear the legal team would be replaced by lawyers of the Church’s choosing who would argue the case in accordance with Catholic teaching.
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DougHuffman
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:37pmHmm,I wonder who replaced their spine(lessness) with a CLUE-BY-Four.
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by faith
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:50pmFrom the article:
“In joint statements released Monday morning, the Bishops and CHI said the operation was “unaware” of the lawyers’ legal arguments. They said that CHI executives acknowledged “it was morally wrong” to make that contention because it “directly contradicts the moral teachings of the Church.””
Get it, the lawyers made the argument without the hospitals knowledge.
But I wouldn’t expect you to read the article before you make a prejudice statement about the Church
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HelloWorld
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:56pmBy Faith: Of course they didn’t consult the church. They have no intention of consulting the church. Believe me when I say the Catholic Hospitals are pretty much in name only.
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Locked
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:31pm@By Faith
““In joint statements released Monday morning, the Bishops and CHI said the operation was “unaware” of the lawyers’ legal arguments. They said that CHI executives acknowledged “it was morally wrong” to make that contention because it “directly contradicts the moral teachings of the Church.””
Get it, the lawyers made the argument without the hospitals knowledge.”
The hospital hired the lawyers. It is their responsibility to actually know how the lawyers are going to argue; especially if it goes against their stated beliefs. And the fact that it took them so long to ‘fess up when there was a near-instantaneous outcry when it happened just doubles-down on their prior knowledge of the argument. The hospital had to make sure that the appeal failed on other grounds before they did a “mea culpa” about their hypocrisy.
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DougHuffman
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 6:23pm@Faith, the law is an aśś that lawyers ride to work, don’t try to be one, you’re not smart enough.
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by faith
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 6:23pmLocked
I don’t have the time or energy to educate your ignorance today.
Business hire lawyers to work for them, lawyers go to court…
Oh never mind you’ll never understand. It’s way to complicated for you.
Crawl back under your bridge
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by faith
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 6:35pmWow Doug, did you come up with that all by yourself?
I fail to see what that has to do with younot reading the article before you attack.
As a follower of the Lord Jesus, I know I will come under attack!
That is His promise to His followers, John 15:18; 1 John 3:13.
No one likes to think about being hated for their faith, but it shouldn’t be a surprise when the devil and His crowd attack and treat us like they treated Jesus.
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Locked
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 8:13pm@By Faith
“Business hire lawyers to work for them, lawyers go to court…”
… to represent their clients. INCLUDING their core values, which they obviously knew, and which any responsible hospital would have conveyed. Come now, you can’t bury your head so deeply in the sand, right?
“Oh never mind you’ll never understand. It’s way to complicated for you.”
Oh no, I understand your point exactly: it’s a Catholic hospital and thus they’re being persecuted by the mean non-Catholics. You’ve made your point as apologist numero uno for the Holy See many times.
I don’t care that they’re Catholic (I think this is my first post here mentioning it, in fact). I don’t think their views represent the larger Catholic hierarchy. I only care that the hospital will change its stance when it’s in their best legal interests and then change it back after… when they’ve already won their case and there’s no danger any more… and the repercussions it has for other faith-based organizations arguing that their religious views on certain topics should exempt them from certain legislation. Thanks to this hospital, it’s simple to point at the case and go “See? This hospital didn’t care about the religious views. Why should Hobby Lobby or other such businesses get exemptions for their faith?
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by faith
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 9:16amLocked
“I understand your point exactly” No you don’t. Yours and Duh-g’s biases are my point. The Lawyers, not the hospital and definitely not the Church came up with this argument. You saw the word Catholic in the headline and used it to further your anti-catholic hate.
“I don’t care that they’re Catholic”
Really, when you saw the word Catholic in the headline you clicked on the story…why is that? I mean if you don’t care?
A lie told to yourself is still a lie.
Example #2
“you gave your own opinion, an order to buy a book”
But what I posted was: “I challenge you to read: Surprised by Truth by Patrick Madrid, 11 Converts Give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for Becoming Catholic”
I ordered you to buy a book? Do you not have a library in you town? Do know what a library is?
Here is the real question. Are your reading skills that weak, are you just ignorant, or are you a liar?
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Locked
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 10:11am@By Faith
““I understand your point exactly” No you don’t. Yours and Duh-g’s biases are my point.”
In your world, even commenting on a story that says “Catholic” in the title is anti-Catholic and biased?
Yikes. I’ve heard of paranoia and persecution complexes, but you sure take the cake!
“The Lawyers…”
Hired by the hospital…
“not the hospital…”
Which hired the lawyers and almost certainly knew the arguments beforehand OR conveyed the core tenets of Catholicism…
“”and definitely not the Church…”
… which I’ve already said is not involved directly…
“came up with this argument.”
Right. It’s the hospital’s fault. A hospital that happens to be Catholic, and happened to argue with blatant hypocrisy albeit perfect legality.
“You saw the word Catholic in the headline and used it to further your anti-catholic hate.
I think I already answered this, and you even quoted me: “I don’t care that they’re Catholic.” YOU care, presumably because you’ve got a persecution complex a mile wide. Or just because you’re argumentative and hate non-Catholics. Perhaps all three?
“Here is the real question…”
… why do you need to lie about a hospital that has no relation to you, besides being run by Catholics who went against the Church’s teachings? Shouldn’t you, y’know, call out the people who usurp the name and power of your church rather than fighting your fellow (though non-Catholic) Christians?
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by faith
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 3:40pmSo once again, we’ll just ignore the parts where you are wrong and build up new strawmen for you to knock down.
I feel sorry for you Locked…because I disagree with you, I hate all non-catholics.
Once again you show your ignorance. You spread lies about my Church when I challange you on it, you say I hate you? I give you historical and biblical proof to back up my arguement and you completely ignore them and return to you talking points.
The Catholic Church is the “Fullness of Faith”. I trust in Jesus and His promise that the gates of hell will not prevail.
You believe in a proven false, man-made teaching. (sola scriptura)
Good luck with that…but before you post more ignorance about the Catholic Church, maybe, just maybe you should find out what she actualy teaches.
Birth control pills….rememeber that, that’s where we started.
did you even bother to look to see if I was right about ALL Christian churches teaching contraception was not allowed until 1930?
No, probably not. because your ignorance is more important than truth.
Keep reading lies and spread them, I’m sure both of us will stand before Jesus one day and answer for our actions. At least I’ve read both sides of the issue. Not just spoon fed hate from anti-catholics
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Locked
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 4:08pm@By Faith
“I hate all non-catholics.”
I agree you do. Your disagreement with me has nothing to do with it.
“You spread lies about my Church”
What lies?
“when I challange you on it, you say I hate you?”
No, you denigrate all non-Catholics. You have, multiple times. You’ve got a persecution complex, mate. It’s a personal issue – not a religious one.
“I give you historical and biblical proof”
Not yet you haven’t.
“The Catholic Church is the “Fullness of Faith”.”
I agree that is your opinion. As for fact? I disagree. Obviously that’s MY opinion, but I have the facts to back it up (namely: the Bible).
“I trust in Jesus and His promise that the gates of hell will not prevail.”
Then we should be on the same side, no?
“You believe in a proven false, man-made teaching.”
Um, called THE BIBLE? Sure do!
“No, probably not. because your ignorance is more important than truth.”
Actually you ignored my answer: tradition does not trump Scripture. That’s my issue with Catholicism, as you yourself have said Catholic traditions and teaching are as valuable as, and at times more important than, the Bible itself.
Unlike your statement, this topic started at THIS hospital. So, back on the topic. You’ve managed to avert it long enough: is the hospital run by incompetent administrators, or did they lie about the situation and only admit it once in the clear?
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Locked
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 4:23pm@By Faith
Oh, a good follow-up, though!
How is criticizing a hospital for hypocrisy without mentioning its religious affiliation tantamount to… let me find the quotes… ah! “used it (the criticism) to further your anti-catholic hate”? That was the first place your brain went to, without any mention of the faith (or criticism of the Church)… there was no insult in my initial post (or any after) against the church itself. Why are you so upset?
And, pray tell, where have I insulted the Church or “spread lies” in your own words? You’ve never been able to quote a single thing from me when I’ve asked. So again. What lies? Quotes would be great, please.
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by faith
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 4:57pmYou were in the room when the hospital administration and the lawyers discussed how to present this case. Because that would be the only way your defacto statement holds any water. The name of the hospital is Catholic, that’s the only reason you clicked on the link. You saw the word Catholic and thought hypocrisy. Well since you were there; tell me how many hospital administrators are Catholic, how about the lawyers. What day did they call the Pope for his opinion. Your ASSUMPTIONS are fallacious. I’m sure you’ll need to look that one up oh great and powerful straw man builder.
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Locked
Posted on February 5, 2013 at 6:30pm@By Faith
“You were in the room when the hospital administration and the lawyers discussed how to present this case.”
No, but I’ve worked as a hospital administrator who has had a direct hand hiring and working with lawyers. So, hands-on experience (hence why I mentioned the hospital administration might just be incompetent). Also, y’know, I have a brain that God graciously gave me, and I use it :-)
“The name of the hospital is Catholic, that’s the only reason you clicked on the link. You saw the word Catholic and thought hypocrisy.”
Ah, so not only do you bear false witness and call me a liar, you’re also a psychic who is in my head! Tell me, for how long did I toll my eyes when you responded?
Hint: 1.9 seconds.
Go away troll. You’ve obviously run out of rebuttals and now have slunk down to the lowest common denominator. If it’s any consolation, I don’t think it has anything to do with being Catholic – I think you’re experiencing cognitive dissonance because you were faced with your irrationality and don’t know how to deal with the truth, so you lash out in anger.
You’re in my prayers, brother. God gives us all trials to overcome!
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by faith
Posted on February 6, 2013 at 5:43pmSorry for the delay in responding, I tried several times, but The Blaze would not let me post a reply to your inane drivel.
Right out of the playbook, when you can’t defend your argument, change the subject.
Your lies: Lets deal with that first.
“I hate all non-catholics” you blatantly and willfully took my post out of context to fit your bias.
I “ordered” you to buy a book. I did not order nor did I say you had to buy anything.
You claim I give you no biblical proof? I have given you numerous biblical quotes with reference. (i.e. Matt 16:18) Do you not understand?
You also lied about historical evidence. You called them extra-biblical, still historical
I never said tradition was more important than scripture. Catholics do not teach tradition over scripture…it’s scripture plus tradition. Just like Paul say in his letters. The Bible did not exist for 300+ years , all teaching was oral tradition by definition.
Again you ignore your false self-professed teaching on birth control pills being allow, because the Bible doesn’t specifically say they are not. ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES until 1930
Now to your latest post
So you were not in the room when administration and lawyers met, so you do not know what they talked about, You can assume but you do not know. Stating that you know what was said is a misrepresentation of the truth…another lie
I’ll gladly accept your prayers, I will continue to pray for you and all those living outside the
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Locked
Posted on February 6, 2013 at 8:59pm@By Faith
My quote: “And, pray tell, where have I insulted the Church or “spread lies” in your own words? ”
“you blatantly and willfully took my post out of context to fit your bias.” – not the Church? Ok, so you’re lying again. Off to a good start.
“I “ordered” you to buy a book. I did not order nor did I say you had to buy anything.”
No, you “challenged” me, then insulted me, several times, across several topics, for not doing so. Also, not the church. 2 for 2.
“You claim I give you no biblical proof?”
No, I said your “biblical proof” is extrapolating outside of the Bible to prop up your justification for Catholics-only as Christians. You ignore what the Scripture actually says, and take it and run with it to fit Catholic dogma. Again, not a lie. 3/3
“You also lied about historical evidence.”
No, you still haven’t offered any. 4/4.
“Catholics do not teach tradition over scripture…it’s scripture plus tradition.”
Actually, I said “you yourself have said Catholic traditions and teaching are as valuable as, and at times more important than, the Bible itself..” This is true. Confession? Praying to saints? The Hail Mary? Those are very Catholic, and very non-biblical… though to be fair, I have no doubt you can find a single mote of Scripture that you extrapolate to justify it.
“ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES until 1930″…
… What? You just stopped here. As said; tradition =/= Scripture.
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Locked
Posted on February 6, 2013 at 9:02pm@By Faith continued
“So you were not in the room when administration and lawyers met, so you do not know what they talked about”
Nope, but as I never stated I knew what was said, YOU are the one lying now :-). My conclusions are the same as before. Either the hospital is lying about not knowing how the lawyers were arguing, which all signs point to, or they are run by incompetent administrators who don’t adequately represent the religious views of the business.
“I’ll gladly accept your prayers, I will continue to pray for you and all those living outside the”
Outside the… what? Let me guess… “Catholic Church”?
Oh, but you don’t hate non-Catholics, of course! You’re a hoot, brother!
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GJPinks
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:34pmActually it could be a great idea.
1. Claim that a fetus isn’t a human being.
2. Do a really bad job defending it in court.
3. Lose your case.
4. Establish legal standing that a Fetus is a Human Being…
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1FreeVoice
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:30pmEveryone is held to the same legal standard. If there is one set of laws governing Catholics and another set of laws for Athiests, that’s discrimination… or tranny. That’s why the legal system is secular… to avoid conflicts of religion by holding everyone to the same standard. You can place additional restrictions on yourself, and hold yourself to a higher standard than the minimum that is demanded of all to maintain a civil society. No one else can hold you accountable to their religious standards… and they cannot hold you to your own religious standards in a court of law unless the same laws apply equally to everyone else.
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HelloWorld
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:45pmWell this is true when utilized as a form of defense, but a very poor argument as witnessed here. If everyone was held to the same standard under the eyes of the law than why are their statues for moral turpitude? Why is morality applied to physicians and not to presidents? I guess physicians are expected to have more morals than the presidency? Interesting, isn’t it?
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Kupo
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 3:11pmWhile I agree with you, I think the main issue here is the hospital not wanting to pay out for the deaths in the first place, and the only way that they were able to rationalize not being held accountable was by saying that the fetuses weren’t humans.
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HelloWorld
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:28pmWhat you have to understand is that the majority of the Catholic Hospitals have nothing to do with the Catholic Religion. As long as they can make money by pretending to be religious they will continue to do so. Once, it no longer works, they will no longer use the Catholic Church as a form of marketing. This is such a joke – the attorney’s are totally instructed on their line of defense. The goal to make the physician (if not employed by the hospital) the scapegoat. “Lie and Deny” the modus operandi of the healthcare insititutions. Disgusting – isn’t it?
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Al J Zira
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:12pmThe Catholic Church has a long way to go to get back into the role of a true religious beacon. It starts by losing the desire for money.
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The_Jerk
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:16pmHelp me out. What religion doesn’t?
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biohazard23
Posted on February 4, 2013 at 2:11pmGee, ya think??
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