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Science

There Could Be a Big Problem With the Discovery of King Richard III’s Bones

Feb. 7, 2013 7:07am Liz Klimas

Earlier in the week, the hot news was that at team of researchers at the University of Leicester had identified “beyond reasonable doubt” using DNA analysis the lost bones of King Richard III, which were found under a parking lot after being missing for centuries. But other researchers are now saying not so fast.

The 500-year-old bones were at first speculated by the Leicester researchers to belong to the supposed English monarch due to evidence of wounds that would have corresponded with Richard III’s death and scoliosis, which could have earned him the description of being a hunchback, LiveScience reported. DNA analysis of a living descendant of Richard III – Michael Ibsen — is what lead the researchers to claim the bones were in fact that of the lost monarch.

Experts Say DNA Evidence of Richard III Bones Could Be Flawed

A television screen displays the skeletal remains of what is believed to be King Richard III during a press conference at Leicester University on February 4. (Photo: Dan Kitwood/Getty Images)

But other researchers say there could be flaws in the DNA evidence.

“The DNA results presented today are too weak, as they stand, to support the claim that DNA is actually from Richard III,” Maria Avila, a computational biologist at the Center for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum of Denmark, said according to LiveScience. “Perhaps more in-depth DNA analysis summed to the archaeological and osteological [bone analysis] results would make a round story.”

LiveScience pointed out that the announcement of the supposed finding of Richard III’s bones was made before a peer review was conducted of the research. The team will be submitting their research for peer review and publication.

A facial reconstruction of King Richard III is unveiled by the Richard III Society on February 5, 2013 in London. (Photo: Dan Kitwood/Getty Images)

Still, even with some skepticism, other scientists are on board with the findings.

“I think they went about it in probably the most rigorous way,” Central Michigan University historian Lemont Dobson told LiveScience. He said those criticizing the findings are “missing the point” of the announcement, which is public interest.

And the general public was relatively interested in the find. According to LiveScience, Richard III was trending on Twitter Monday after the announcement.

Watch this video of the unveiling of Richard III’s facial reconstruction:

(H/T: io9)

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Comments (66)

New.World.Fastfood.Order
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 5:42pm
Better evidence than the evidence for Evolution and people still believe it. (shrug)

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- Imjetta
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 6:09pm
  Exactly!
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 8, 2013 at 1:54pm
  You clearly do not know what you are talking about.
  
  Report this comment
dumpsterdog
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 4:37pm
I swear those are Howdy Doody’s bones. The high cheek bones give it away.

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- Skrewedretiree
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 5:38pm
  You’d have high cheek bones too if you had your a$$ kicked as hard as he did!
  
  Report this comment
tramco
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 2:48pm
I don’t know, with those high cheek bones….

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- DSN397
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 3:50pm
  See there, now you have it. Elizabeth Warren isn’t an american indian at all, but a descendant of British royality.
  
  Report this comment
- midcoastmainepatriot
  Posted on February 8, 2013 at 1:36pm
  You mean “Dances With Moonbats”……..She IsThe BEST !!!!!!!!!!! oh Liarwhatha you slay me ! I’m getting Hammered!!!!!!!!!!
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 8, 2013 at 1:55pm
  AND a senator.
  Give it a rest. Brown lost and is apparently
  FOX’s new Sarah Palin.
  
  Report this comment
NILAP
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 2:15pm
As a descendent of Richard III, he indeed looks like a member of the family. We need to throw out the Windsors and restore the Plantagenet’s.

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- AlaskaBob
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 3:06pm
  Throw out the Germans for the French?
  
  Report this comment
flatbroke
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 2:06pm
If this is the same dude that killed his nephews, and buried them under the stairs of some castle so he could assume the thrown, he deserved to get his arse beat, and buried in a parking lot.

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docfix
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 1:40pm
At this point in time…. what does it matter if it’s him or not? Did he die because a bunch of HOOLIGAN’s were just out walking around one morning and wanted to kill an English King and bury him under a parking lot?

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- pdw
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 1:52pm
  No he was killed in battle, drug from his horse and beaten to death. He was not well liked by much of anyone. I do have him on my family tree but from what I have read about his life and death maybe I should not have even said I am anyway related to him.
  
  Report this comment
- Granny58
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 4:05pm
  PDW – I think the reference is to Madam Secretary HRC
  
  Report this comment
SamIamTwo
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:51pm
All I wanta know is coffee good for ya or not?

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- Skrewedretiree
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 5:42pm
  Yup, it is. It’s either a cup of coffee in the morning or half a fifth of Jack Daniels. Take your pick.
  
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pap pap
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:15pm
Who cares ?

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- Ceefour
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:20pm
  I care
  
  Report this comment
- Cavallo
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:48pm
  It is an interest piece but important because it shows some of the distinction on which different scientists operate. Think of how aggressive and abusive the scientists in this case would be if it had been a discovery of some kind of man made climate change and they were questioned about their motives. They certainly would not submit their findings for peer review to anyone other than someone who absolutely agreed with you.
  
  Report this comment
Jetlander
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:51am
Is it just me who caught the comments?

“Central Michigan University historian Lemont Dobson told LiveScience. He said those criticizing the findings are “missing the point” of the announcement, which is public interest.”

An academic stating that just because the science is weak it should be overlooked, as long as the ends justify the means.

Global Warming anyone?

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- spirited
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:34pm
  Sorta, kinda…, fits into what the entertainment world and media world does.
  
  Similarly, the Obamas have done, and do this.
  Some perfect examples:
  ~ “Folks are hungry for change” -Michelle Obama
  ~ “We have to change our history” -Michelle Obama
  
  ~ “Don’t let them bamboozle you” -Barack Obama
  ~ “They’ll try to hoodwink you” -Barack Obama
  ~ “…What Americans want”…. “…What Americans need” -Barack Obama
  ~ “Punish your enemies” -Barack Obama
  ~ “You didn’t build that” -Barack Obama & Elizabeth Warren
  ~ “Pay your fair share” -Barack Obama
  
  ~ “That is racist” -MSNBC, CNN & Too many to quote
  ~ “Social Justice” – Barack Obama & Too many to quote
  
  ~ “Barack Obama is our boss” -Chris Rock (lol, puke)
  
  Report this comment
- Msgt Ret
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 2:01pm
  Dont forget ” No one making less than $250K will have their taxes, of any kind, increased.
  ” I will take no money from any special interest groups”
  
  Report this comment
- ozchambers
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 4:50pm
  The most relevant observation of this story is yours. The politicization of science will eventually lead us back to the dark ages.
  
  Report this comment
Ghandi was a Republican
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:38am
Kyle Petty’s grandson is dead?

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vayapues
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:31am
sounds like some in the “academic” world got their feelings hurt, because they were left out, ie not consulted.

It is always amazing to me how big the egos of academics are, considering most of them wouldn’t survive ten minutes in the real world.

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Verceofreason
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:01am
The very curved spine and skull injuries are just coinky dinkys. And the fact that the DNA line is 20 genertaions removes is just dismissed by that prune Danish.

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gryffn
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:25am
“The DNA results presented today are too weak, as they stand, to support the claim that DNA is actually from Richard III,” – How so? What kind of DNA did they use?
mtDNA is solid evidence. It linked a current descendant of the Cheddar man, and that gap was 9,000 years!

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- Red Meat
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 10:02am
  WGAS really?
  
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- AWSci
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:49am
  Mitochondrial DNA is passed only though the egg. So mtDNA can only be used in an unbroken female line.
  
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DesertRose1960
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:12am
Thank you for running the story and the video about the facial reconstruction. I was always very partial to English history. I look forward to new research into Richard and his legacy. He’s been the victim of Tudor smear campaigns for centuries. Yes, he may have done some bad things (i.e., the Princes in the Tower) but he was also an affective King, apparently and not the monsterous hunchback that Shakespeare gave us. Shakespeare may have been a secret Richard fan, because he gave him some of the best lines ever.

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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:31am
  @DESERTROSE1960
  
  I’m sure we could be good friends – as long as we didn’t discuss politics or religion.
  
  Report this comment
- Atikva
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:02pm
  First and foremost, he usurped power, and our current usurper increases my disgust toward this type of thieves, liars and murderers.
  
  Report this comment
- edmundburk
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 1:54pm
  ” DNA test! my kingdom for a DNA test!”
  
  Report this comment
KickinBack
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:01am
And now the moment we’ve all been waiting for, the unveiling of the facial reconstruction to see what the good King might have looked like…And he looks like…

like he does in his portraits! Now how could that have happened?

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- woodyee
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:16am
  Heh-heh!
  
  Report this comment
- Dano.50
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:34am
  We’d need to know the conditions of the test.
  
  If they did it like the cops would, then whomever did the job should have only been told, “We found this skull. Can you try to reconstruct the face.”
  
  If they said, “We found King Richard the 3rd’s skull. Can you reconstruct his face.” then the results are invalid.
  
  Report this comment
- MattyG
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:42am
  I think he looks like the king from the first Shrek movie.
  
  Report this comment
- JustMeInAZ
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 2:54pm
  Facial reconstruction always makes me laugh. The cartilidge in the nose is gone, so you can’t reproduce that with any accuracy. The lips are gone and there are no “bone lips” to build off of, so that’s another point for just more “make believe”. Honetly, how can anyone put any credence into this?
  
  Report this comment
- Myron_J_Poltroonian
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 8:01pm
  @JUSTMEINAZ: Obviously you’ve never paid attention to the lyrics in that old children’s song, Dem Dry Bones,” … and the neck bone’s connected to the head bone, and the head bone’s connected lip bone, and the lip bone’s connected to the nose bone, … .” [Heh, heh, he, heh.]
  
  Report this comment
Raimo Kangasniemi
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 8:28am
This criticism of DNA is study is weak, because it forgets that beyond Ibsen’s they also traced also a second lineage and got another DNA sample that also with that of Ibsen’s and that of the deceased. The chance this would be a co-incidence, the three of them sharing the DNA without the skeleton being that of Richard III, is very small.

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BuggiOlleo
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 8:27am
So, if I could put that cap on my head??! …”Ah, It’s good to be the King”.
PS Those aren’t my bones pinheads.

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DougHuffman
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 8:21am
Normative and prescriptive assertion statements – characterized by such as would, should, could, et cetera – have no inherent truth value.

They are not news, but for losers. The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

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Quiata
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:50am
In the video, the woman presenting Richard III’s likeness claimed that contemporaneous portraits of him made him appear much older than his 32 years. Beg to differ: by today’s standards, 32 is a relatively young age. But in the 1400s life in general was much harsher and shorter, even for a somewhat cloistered monarch.

Just for kicks, take a look at photos of similarly aged men’s faces from the 1920s – 1940s. They look much more mature and seasoned than their years would suggest, especially by today’s cushy standards.

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- spirited
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:39pm
  Frequent bathing (and less bleeding) might have helped.
  
  >Especially living in cold buildings …..and that climate!
  
  Report this comment
- dnewton
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 1:18pm
  good point. I think the reconstruction matching the paintings should count for something except sometimes paintings were flavored to make the subject look better than he or she actually did.
  
  Report this comment
- 123456beatriz
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 1:20pm
  In that time people 15 years old looked as 25, so that kind of life was very hard and nasty so.
  
  Report this comment
sbenard
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:48am
He looks like a young David Morse, the actor that played George Washington in the John Adams series.
Al “Sky Is Falling” Gore has taught us to have a healthy skepticism of all new science, since much of it is either biased or politically motivated. Most of Al Gore’s “science” isn’t peer reviewed either. It’s just “decided” and “settled”, according to Gore. They are now using junk science to try to deceive the masses.
It’s hard for me to believe that one of Britain’s kings would have been buried beneath a parking lot. It it smells like a fish…

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- AWSci
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:52am
  Yeah, who knew they even had parking lots back then. It’s all so hard to believe.
  I mean, I’ll accept that many of the British kings were murdered, executed or died in battle. But actually getting buried? That’s just unrealistic.
  
  Report this comment
- kimbopree
  Posted on February 8, 2013 at 1:12pm
  It wasn’t a parking lot back then, it would have been the battlefield. Why does he look crosseyed?
  
  Report this comment
ares338
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:45am
Where’s the “easy ” button?

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PingPongPing
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:42am
did anybody notice how gas prices just shot up?
anybody, anyone?….

(cricket/cricket)

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- Mudd
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 8:30am
  No one cares – new normal :(
  
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Lloyd Drako
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:40am
Jesus lived 1500 years before Richard III. So I suppose efforts to match DNA from the Shroud of Turin with that of descendants of the Merovingians will have to be put on hold?

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- Raimo Kangasniemi
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 8:28am
  There are no known descendants of Merovingians.
  
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- DZ-015
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:19am
  Raimo: There are descendants of Merovingians today. Chances are good that they include all of us. Check into the concept of the closest common ancestor. When you go back 1500 years that’s at least 75 generations. It is a virtual mathematical certainty that all of us are descended from anyone who lived that long ago and who has descendants living today. That includes Abraham, Genghis Khan and Mohammed. I wonder if The_Jerk knows about this?
  
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- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 10:59am
  That 700 year old fake?
  
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Sicialian Eyeball
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:24am
He’s still dead. Just brain pudding for the masses. What about that economy thing? Talk about important stuff.

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- gryffn
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:13am
  It may not be important to you – so move on!
  Some of us want to read about this.
  
  Report this comment
- booger71
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:27am
  Let the dead rest in peace. If someone was out digging up your grandpa would you have a problem?
  
  Report this comment
2ndOpinion
Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:13am
1st to comment on a non-story. Where’s the down vote button?

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- Quiata
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 7:51am
  Whad’ya mean? This story is fascinating!
  
  Report this comment
- gryffn
  Posted on February 7, 2013 at 9:15am
  Again, if this is not interesting to you, MOVE ON!
  And let the rest of us learn something.
  
  Report this comment

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