An elementary school teacher’s tragic death after having a late-term abortion last week has pro-life advocates infuriated and calling for officials to shutter the clinic that performed the procedure. Jennifer McKenna Morbelli, a 29-year-old from New Rochelle, N.Y., was purportedly 33 weeks pregnant when sought out the Germantown, Md., doctor’s office after allegedly learning that her unborn baby had developed abnormalities.
The complicated, multi-day procedure went very wrong, with Morbelli reportedly suffering a ruptured uterus and subsequently dying in a nearby hospital from severe internal bleeding. The Daily Mail notes that these details have not yet been confirmed by investigators and that the issues surrounding the case are not officially known. However, these are the elements that are being reported by anti-abortion advocates and the media, alike. Here’s the timeline of events, as reported by the Daily Mail:
On February 3, Mrs Morbelli, a substitute teacher from New Rochelle, and her husband arrived in Germantown [Maryland] and checked into a hotel where they were to spend several days during the procedure.
Four days after having the abortion at Germantown Reproductive Health Services clinic, the young woman reportedly complained of chest pain and other discomfort.
At around 5am last Thursday, she was rushed to Shady Grove Adventist Hospital, where she passed away a few hours later from massive bleeding into her abdominal cavity.
According to the Washington Post, it is legal in Maryland to perform late-term abortions when an unborn child develops abnormalities or when the health or life of the mother is at risk. New York State’s laws are not as liberal, which is purportedly what led the woman to seek out-of-state assistance.

Jennifer McKenna and TJ Morbelli (Photo Credit: Pinterest)
Aside from a confirmation on the cause of Morbelli’s death, not much is known about the reasons for the late-term abortion, specifically the abnormalities that have been cited. The woman and her husband, TJ, were expecting a baby girl on March 20, whom they purportedly planned to name Madison Leigh.
Dr. LeRoy Cathart, 69, one of the only doctors overtly performing late-term abortions, is now being targeted by pro-life activists who believe that he botched Morbelli’s procedure. According to the Daily Mail, it was 2005 that Cathart first came into the cross-hairs after a previous patient died following an abortion.
Now, they are holding him personally responsible in the wake of this latest tragedy. On Monday, 150 pro-lifers demonstrated outside of the clinic and demanded that the clinic be shut down.
“We will not rest until this clinic is shut down and the license of LeRoy Carhart is revoked,” said the Rev. Patrick Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition. “God let it be so.”
The Maryland Office of the Chief Medical Examiner performed an autopsy, but the results won’t be ready for up to one month. The Maryland Office of Health Care Quality is currently investigating the death.
(H/T: Daily Mail)
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Comments (166)
Ghandi was a Republican
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:51pmSo long as my hands are clean. The Federal Government has no right whatsoever to make me an accomplice in any way, shape or form. There are plenty of people who couldn’t care less- let THEM fund it (unless they are all talk).
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SendTheMeteors
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:57pmNo comment on the subject matter here.
But what I find interesting is the article associated with this thread and the choice of words. First, in the title, there’s this: “Pro-Lifers Target Famed Abortionist.” Target? Okay, whatever. Then there’s this: “it was 2005 that Cathart first came into the cross-hairs…”
Okay, accuse me of being PC, but there are lots of abortion providers who have been murdered with guns, and attempted murders and bombing of abortion clinics.
So when news organization such as this talks about about “targeting” and “putting in the gun sights” (when there’s a wealth of better words that don’t suggest guns) a group of people who have already been bombed, and terrorized and subject to arsonist attack and the object of attempted assassination, and of course actually assassinated – shot in the brain with a gun – then you start to wonder a little about the choice of words.
Because some have literally been “targeted” with terrorism and assignation attempts, and some actually have died in “the gun sights” of someone who doesn’t agree with Roe v. Wade, then, well, ya gotta wonder. I’m not saying nothin’ I’m just sayin’.
dmerwin
Feb. 13, 2013 at 9:11pm“You pays your money and you takes your chances”
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dmerwin
Feb. 13, 2013 at 9:12pmSendTheMeteors
Charlie Brown’s teacher talking.
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Zipit
Feb. 13, 2013 at 11:09pmCradle to grave insanity! Nice try JULIA!
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The_Cabrito_Goat
Feb. 13, 2013 at 11:17pmI just can’t take it anymore, the sheer evil of some of these comments. I have almost had it with the blaze for their poor management of these forums.
Well congratulations, trolls, paid bloggers, activists.
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Mythghtsrmyown
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:07am@sendthemeteors : this story is a repost from another website, genius.
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Chuck Stein
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:15amThe article’s title is in error: there is a difference between “fame” and “infamy.”
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Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
Feb. 14, 2013 at 4:45amPacifists have to pay for war. Christian Scientists have to pay for Medicare. Arsonists have to pay for the fire department, and in a perfect world where we had saner, more courageous politicians you would have to pay for abortions.
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DamoclesAurelius
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:09am@Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
“Pacifists have to pay for war.” Because Pacifist benefit from the security war brings, even if they are unwilling to fight.
“Christian Scientists have to pay for Medicare.” And they should not have to, nor should anyone else, since Medicare by the Federal govt is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
” Arsonists have to pay for the fire department,” Arsonists are CRIMINAL you jackass…
“…and in a perfect world where we had saner, more courageous politicians you would have to pay for abortions.”
In a perfect world, trolls like as blissfully ignorant (or evil, take your pick) would not exist.
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EVANROOD
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:12amXOTZ! Really!!! If that is your definition of a “perfect world”, then perhaps a “very, late term abortion”, would be the remedy to your intellectually limited existence!! I’ll pony up the cash!
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HoratiusAtTheBridge
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:18amHey (Ass)Meteors… You conveniently – like your filthy kind on the Left and throughout the media – ignore all of the putrid hate and screams for death coming from YOUR side, right? Your side called for Romney to die and fro NRA leadership to be shot! What about the murdering turd who just got burned up? He was proclaiming the LEFT and Gun Control as the best things ever – that they had so greatly INFLUENCED his life. Had he said “Beck” or “Limbaugh” then YOU would be crapping out of both ends for those men to be silenced or even killed. And if a woman dies while trying to murder her unborn baby? Waaa! Cry me a river. Probably shouldn’t be murdering the unborn, right? Anyways, that turd got bbq’d after murdering four people – but WHY was that “criminal” and the hundreds of thousands killed by abortion each year NOT? It is sick to say that your life is valid only after you literally escape your mothers’ womb. Shame on – and to Hell with – everyone like you.
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WhiteFang
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:34amAll the players in this story have sinned in one way or the other. All of us sin and Romans 6:23 tells us “the wages sin pays is death”.
We all die because we have to pay for our sins. In addition, Romans 6:7 tells us “For he who has died has been acquitted from (his) sin”.
Now we can go back to Romans 6:23 and it continues with God’s remedy for us; “but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord”.
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Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
Feb. 14, 2013 at 5:30pmDamoclesAurelius
We would all benefit from more abortions because fewer people born to stupid, irresponsible parents would result in a better ratio of useful people to bums and criminals. Paying for all abortions for anyone who wants them, no questions asked, would be one of the wisest possible expenditures of our public funds.
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Zipit
Feb. 14, 2013 at 7:37pmXYLLIAB! Not a bad thought, it would (proportionately) decrease the people born to think the way you do, by a large number!
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flatbroke
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:23pmVery sad outcome, to very poor decision. I thought abortion done after 22 weeks were illegal, she could have decided to have the baby, then give baby up for adoption, then everyone would have won in the end, instead of 2 dead. very sad i pray for everyone involved, that dad will recover from his loss, that abortionist, and nurses will choose life, and work where life is welcomed,cherished,and valued.
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encinom
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:02pmHow was it a poor decision, the article never says what was wrong with the fetus that lead the couple to make a hard choice.
tonypro
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:23pmHey insanom,
I see you’re out earning your pay today. :-)
Gotta be sharp though, seems you have more competition than usual.
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WarMunger_Al
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:30pmThey didn’t want a down syndrome kid so they tried to kill the baby, and the woman paid the price.
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encinom
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:39pmWarMunger_Al
Posted on February 13, 2013 at 7:30pm
They didn’t want a down syndrome kid so they tried to kill the baby, and the woman paid the price.
______________________
And where is your proof of this, or are you just another typical lying christian that will create a story to feel better about hate filled creed?
Ghandi was a Republican
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:50pmDear enci-commie:
They went to an abortion clinic. It was not a medical procedure. What’s wrong with you, you friggin idiot? Abortion clinics will say anything for a $1. If it was legit they’re Dr would have referred them to a gynecological surgeon, with the blessings!
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antitheism
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:04pmCommitting abortion is a godly thing to do. That noble woman was simply emulating god.
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
-Hosea 13 16
READRIGHTHERE
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:11pm@Enc
As if it matters! Good hell, your thinking gives rise to even more evil logic such as…We should continually evaluate the value of any life based on their limitations, whether they were born with them or acquired them at a future date. Wheelchair bound after an accident? No one needs to live like that, take this pill…Morbidly obese with a flatulence issue, no one can survive that with their self esteem intact…You can’t even do your times tables? Why, let’s take a shower. What are those mommy? Why those are just really large pizza ovens sweetheart, by the way you failed math again this year, do you feel like a pizza? At what point is a fetus a life, when its viable (33 weeks is well past that cut-off point)? Your logic makes me ill. When are folks such as yourself ever going to absorb the reality that sometimes life and the choices we make while living have sometimes unavoidable consequences? Did you not watch the video of the guy born without legs and arms. What gives you the irrational notion that you are intellectually superior enough to predetermine the value of a developing life? Don’t bother answering that. I am regretting this post even before I click reply. Useless endeavor on my part. Ideologue!
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mastice
Feb. 14, 2013 at 3:07am@encinom
I see you didn’t read the article again, merely the headline and the comments below. It clearly says that the woman “sought out the Germantown, Md., doctor’s office after allegedly learning that her unborn baby had developed abnormalities.” AND it says that in Maryland it is legal to get a late term abortion in this instance.
So was it “down syndrome”? The article doesn’t state that, however it DID say the baby “developed abnormalities” which would indicate there was something undesirable to the parents.
My personal opinion is that these two people made a horrible choice – and the woman paid for it. It also may be horrible for me to say this, but in many ways I don’t feel sorry for her either. She chose to murder her own child… because she thought it was going to be abnormal. Those tests are not always 100% accurate, as we found out when our son was born… the child might have been perfectly healthy.
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encinom
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:15am@mastice Like Warmunger, you are another hate filled Christian rushing to judgement without any facts. The article is a bias hit piece agaisnt a dead women. It fails to say why they choose to terminate, other than a vague term. Yet the good little Christians are lining up to spit on the dead. If the Christians on the Blaze represent your god, than your god is a bastard that deserves damnation.
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jeffersonian1776
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:24amEncimen, typical left wing nut crack, always supporting things the nazis were guilty of; in this case, getting rid of those among us who are not perfect physical beings (i.e., eugenics).
signed, a former fetus
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jeffersonian1776
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:31amEncimen, and other radical leftist nut cracks, always love to throw out their favorite word, which is “fetus.” Well when is a fetus considered a baby? If a woman is nine months and one week pregnant, is it still a fetus at nine months and six days into the pregnancy. And if it is not a fetus then at this point, when has it changed into a baby?
signed, a former fetus
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girlnurse
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:48pmI love the way ENCINOM uses the term “terminate”…oh how 1984 of you ECINOM!
“terminate”=MURDER because of ones SELFISH wishes and desires.
WHOA to you encinom.
“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter”
BTW this is the “1984″ version of the NIV bible:)
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right_thinking_mama
Feb. 14, 2013 at 3:55pmIf she didn’t have the abortion, and instead had the baby, imperfections and all, she would likely be alive today. We live in a culture that doesn’t want to deal with problems. So we take pills. Lots of them. Or we abort children with imperfections because it’s a hard thing to deal with. I can’t judge this woman’s fate. That’s up to God. But we need to know that choices have consequences and the easiest choice isn’t always the right one.
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sundell1951
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:01pmThe questions are… How much is this ” reproductive health clinic” funded by tax dollars? And what color ribbon for 50 million aborted babies should we wear?
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Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:30pmThank God for abortion. Having over 50 million more people in this country, all born to parents who never wanted them but were just too stupid and irresponsible to think about the consequences of their actions? That would be horrible! We would have an even higher percentage of bums, parasites and criminals, and the people who are working productively would have even less chance of getting ahead and improving their lot in life because there would be even more desperate people to compete for the little they have. You’ve got to be crazy to think that having 50 million more people would be a good thing.
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tonypro
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:21pm@ Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
You progressive communists never cease to amaze me with your level of ignorance, and stupidity.
What an idiot.
I suppose you’re one of the “we need to depopulate the globe” people. If so I would like to see you at the front of the line.
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lefty5005
Feb. 14, 2013 at 8:46amTo Tonypro and Xylliab I will take it one step further and I am right of Reagan, conservative to the bone.
You collect any form of govt subsistence and you take birth control, you cannot procreate. You collect foodstamps, WIC, section 8 or even an unemployment check, you cannot procreate. If you do, the child is taken and you are criminally negligent. Guys, zip it up, girls, close your legs. Now this is something you can teach the 12 year old students instead of atheism, communism and how to be a good Democrat while looking at a pornographic film on intercourse called sex education. Yes, they show them, they showed me one in the 7th grade but the girls and boys were separated at that time in history. Something the parasites can understand is “the check or EBT card.” When you give them the paper saying what can disqualify someone they all of a sudden learn how to read, understand and pay attention. Yes, this country needs enforcement of what is tearing it apart and that is entitlements, poor education and more money won’t fix it and calling it what it really is and that is generational welfare and people chronically on the dole. How in the hell can you justify procreating when you can’t pay for food, housing or the birth in the hospital. When you can do that you can procreate, screw like a damn rabbit if you want. Something they can understand, sexual activity comes with a “job.”
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whater39
Feb. 14, 2013 at 10:35amThe world is already over populated. So your wanting another 50 million on it?
What about the resource consumption. What about future generations? You want to use everything up now, and leave nothing for them? Except for a extremely pulluted planet?
I’m sure the couple thought long and hard about this prior to making this decision. Lets say the abortsion went fine. Don’t you think they would have tried for another child?
Also if your all about the living. I hope your anti-war. Including Drone strikes. Anti-war on drugs.
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girlnurse
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:51pmHey I have an idea! How bout the women stop spreadin their legs and the men stop spreadin their semen? Hmmmm Nobody ever thought of that one, Im sure.
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JUSTANOTHEROPINION
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:43pmThe murdering B*tch died a painful death, good! I hope her husband suffers with grief for a long time then I hope he dies a painful death and I also hope the doctor and all who had a hand in this die painful death too. Maryland is an evil state for allowing this crime against God and Humanity! Now, to all of you who take offense to my views on this, go to hell!!!!
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RDavis49
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:57pmWow…… cut no slack.
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encinom
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:11pmTypical Christian spewing ignorance and hate and you wonder why America is turning its back on the church.
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TheRemedy
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:53pmSorry, I fail to see the “Christian” you speak of in this post.
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morningbird1
Feb. 13, 2013 at 10:07pmYou have the right to your opinion in this nation, though its hard to read such things. I hope you haven’t made the grave mistake of speaking on God’s behalf based on the comments you’ve written. Why do I say that? Because, you may have overlooked the fact that your words are actually just as destructive as the Dr and Abortion performed that took the life of the Mother and Child. Christ himself acknowledged if you carry hate in your heart for someone, that you have in turn murdered them. You are acting no different than the Dr and staff of that clinic. If you claim to be a Christian, which I’m not sure you do, you certainly didn’t state it, then I ask you take a long deep look at your self like true followers of Christ should do daily, and ask if you’re really following and reflecting Christ’s teaching and love? God alone is the judge and makes His atonement for the sins of the world not you or I. Tread carefully my friend as we all carry with us the darkness of sin.
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Kumo
Feb. 13, 2013 at 11:49pm@ENCINOM
If you are referring to the OP, that is not a Christian attitude. Jesus was never a hateful man nor did he ever advocate it.
Sure he beat the crap out of some money changers once but he was never hateful.
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Kumo
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:49amJust a bit of a follow up on the reason why Jesus beat up the greedy money changers. They were conducting their business for personal gain inside the temple, his Father’s house.
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girlnurse
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:54pmYea encinom…WE’re disgusted with baby killing and WE are the ones spreadin hate? wow
“Open the eyes of the BLIND Lord….open the eyes of the BLIND”
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usmc1063
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:42pmAll are guilty here.
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encinom
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:12pmtypical right winger demands he has a right to own a tool of death, screams and rants that he also has the right to control the bodies of women.
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Joey8
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:30pmEncinom, typical left winger, selective on who gets the right to live. “If it only saves one child’s life”
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WarMunger_Al
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:32pmnom-
it isn’t the woman’s body that gets ripped up and sucked out of a tube
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Techcon
Feb. 13, 2013 at 11:13pm@encinom-an,
Owning a TOOL of death, as opposed to owning millions of DEATHS?
Assault abortions – check!
Banning DDT – check!
CAFE standards – check!
…
Possessing an AR-15 is WORSE to this putz than dismembering an innocent.
You leftist “Spoiled Brats” are beyond STUPID, ya f-ing Romkowski. Move to N. Korea already.
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girlnurse
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:58pmYes warmunger MANY “POTENTIAL” women are getting sucked out of tubes every day!
encinom thinks evil men who break into houses and rape women and children shouldn’t be put to death BUT innocent babies should. I bet he’s glad his mom didn’t think that way.
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SpankDaMonkey
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:40pm.
I didn’t want a burden…….
Hell is Hot aint it………Oh and Doc your time is coming “Jesus Loves the Little Children”……
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Small World
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:51pmIs no one thinking about Mr. Morbelli when he has to say his wife died having a late-term abortion?
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girlnurse
Feb. 14, 2013 at 2:00pmYea small world…I am thinking he should have told his wife; “you are not going to kill my baby”!
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catty
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:34pmNothing about this story rings true and the blaze will NOT report it if this was a fake. Just trying to get you guys all rilled up not to mention putting people that work at this clinic at risk.
Good job Blaze! Surprized they didn’t say the doctor was Muslim for extra effect…
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:54pmLol, you have no proof, Troll. Go away.
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DEFCON4
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:57pmhttp://westchester.news12.com/news/woman-dies-after-failed-late-term-abortion-1.4624348
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RDavis49
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:00pmIf you don’t like the news here, go to your liberal main stream media channels and see how much truth and honesty you find there. Don’t like it, then don’t friggin’ read it…. you control the mouse so go away.
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RabbiDRJerkins
Feb. 14, 2013 at 3:33pmShalom,
No one, absolutely no one has to earn a living by murdering peoples children in exchange for cash from the parents, the government, or both. I will admit that anyone so depraved probably can not, in truth, understand why every single person with an ounce of decency or integrity seeks to remove them from the planet.
If an abortioninst loses his or her life for their choice of profession, I have no more sympathy for them than I would for a pedophile, drug dealer or rapist.
Do we not have a duty to stop those who murder our children? If not, I an guessing you supported and cheered on the man shooting children in the elementary school last year, and complained about the “hate” of the police that stopped him.
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usedCZARsalesman
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:27pmSorry, but I’m 100% ok with this…this POS “teacher” goes to murder her baby only because it isn’t “perfect” in her eyes…you can take one look at her and get the feeling she is that vain type of trash that just couldn’t bear to not have a little china doll princess. I think the death penalty was the PERFECT sentence for her murdering an infant.
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The Third Archon
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:11pmThere’s that famous Christian compassion on display!
You don’t even know all the facts (really, ANY verified facts), yet you RUSH to judgment. You don’t even consider the possibility that the abnormalities might have made the child’s existence short and every moment of it torturous–no, you are only concerned with imposing YOUR moral sensibilities on the matter, and the suffering of others be damned.
DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:34pmThird- It’s not really about compassion or not. It’s just about justice. She got justice it seems. End of story. Stop being a fool. I dare you. I even dare you stop making fun of Christians. Atheists are always 100x worse on this site than anything Christians say. So maybe I should say there is that “morality” Atheists always claim to have. Lol what a joke.
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Sosorryforyou
Feb. 13, 2013 at 10:20pm@DLV
You have got to be kidding! I’ve been reading the comments on The Blaze every single day for several years now and I will tell you, I have never read any thing more hate-filled than the comments I read from so-called Christians on this site. It is absolutely disgusting. Really, you have got to be kidding.
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brother_ed
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:30am@SOSORRYFORYOU
I, too, am deeply saddened by the comments on this story.
I am finding it difficult to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys.
A man lost his wife, what a terrible thing to contemplate, especially the day before Valentine’s Day.
I do not agree with abortion, but I refuse to condemn those who have had one.
The lack of respect for life reflected in the comments of this article are appalling.
One side, for the life of a baby – the other side for the life of the mother.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:32amNo I’m not kidding sosorry. Granted Christians here could be a bit more even tempered but you guys ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS set them off. It’s like dancing around in fire expecting to not be burned. How stupid are you? Every single time atheists start poking Christians verbally insulting God and what else, trolling them to death and then you expect Christians not to get angry. Unlike childhood, where the adult says “I don’t care who started it” it actually matters who started it. Atheists here are always antagonizing the Christians and then are surprised when Christians fire back with some power and they say stupid things like “well, that’s christian compassion for you.” Enough, be stupid elsewhere and stop getting your jollies by antagonizing people’s way of life. I don’t go to Muslim or atheist websites and start trolling them. Why? Because I have a life. The way you people constantly antagonize Christians is disgusting and low. And if you don’t like a conservative website… there is the door.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:35amBro-Ed-While I do feel sorry for the husband, sort of, would you feel bad for a lady who got killed before she murdered her child? The double standard is killing me. I can’t exactly say I feel sorry for her though. She was about to kill her child and you want sympathy? Let me check my sympathy holder…. mmmm empty….. darn…
There aren’t any good guys in this story. Just justice plain and simple.
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 9:06am@DLV
“While I do feel sorry for the husband, sort of, would you feel bad for a lady who got killed before she murdered her child? The double standard is killing me. I can’t exactly say I feel sorry for her though. She was about to kill her child and you want sympathy? Let me check my sympathy holder…. mmmm empty….. darn…
There aren’t any good guys in this story. Just justice plain and simple.”
There is NO justice here, DLV. “Justice” would have been if she had a baby without “brain abnormalities” (we don’t know what those abnormalities are, by the way). There is only sorrow all around. For all you know, her child (which was obviously wanted; they had a name picked out) had a disease that would have killed it within minutes after its birth; a short life of nothing but pain and horror for the parents to watch their beloved infant die. That is the EXACT situation that happened to a family friend of mine several years ago – she had to watch her child, born without several functioning organs, gasp a few breaths before dying.
Ever since her experience, I’ve understood the reason for third trimester abortions. They comprise only .04% of all abortions, and I have NEVER heard of one done except for abnormalities or the health of the mother. I don’t agree with “abortions of convenience”, but I see the need for legal abortion.
There is no justice served here, there is only sorrow. I pray that God comforts this poor, poor husband.
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usedCZARsalesman
Feb. 14, 2013 at 10:16amCompassion for the murderer of an infant? No thanks, I’m good…I have no more “compassion” for this woman than for a man getting the electric chair for murder. I’m sad she exercised her “right” to choose and that it cost HER AND THE BABY their lives, but that’s as far as it goes.
If the husband supported her choice, he is guilty as well.
I believe there should be justice for the innocent. Since the government openly endorses killing of babies, this justice only occurs in sad stories like these (sad because an innocent died).
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 10:42am@Used
“Compassion for the murderer of an infant?”
“Murder.” That term keeps getting thrown around. Definition-wise, abortion is not murder, as it is legal. But let’s look at it from the perspective of your own emotions.
Used, if you had the power to shoot Adam Lanza dead before he murdered 26 teachers and grade-school children at Sandy Hook, would you have done so? And you consider abortion to be murder, correct? You KNOW thousands of abortions happen every year in the US, and abortion providers are not necessarily hard to find (look for the clinics with protesters outside of them).
If you know that these doctors “murder” dozens, hundreds, thousands throughout their career, why in the world don’t you shoot THEM? If you saw Lanza crossing a parking lot toward a school with several guns ready to fire, you’d shoot him dead, right? I certainly would!
I think we know why… because you don’t actually think it’s murder; not on the same scale as a child who is already born.
I’m not saying abortion is “good,” but I think it should remain an option… and be the used only after all other options have been heavily considered (similar to how declaring war in a dispute with another country is not the first or preferable option, but it’s on the table). But calling it murder is factually wrong AND morally hypocritical, no?
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:36amlocked- If that’s correct that changes things a little. Even still I don’t like playing God even when the child is not doing well. “Abnormalities” aren’t enough for termination. Also, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it not murder. Hitler was murdering Jews, yet it was still murder. In the past murder/genocide has been legal and it’s still murder.
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usedCZARsalesman
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:42amSorry LOCKED, murder is NOT yours to define…it is God’s. if tomorrow law is passed making it legal to murder children under the age of 2 that have disabilities, does it cease to be murder at the moment the law is passed? Your laws mean less than nothing to me when they run contrary to God’s
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:27pm@DLV
“Even still I don’t like playing God even when the child is not doing well. “Abnormalities” aren’t enough for termination.”
Depending on what those abnormalities may be, I see plenty of ground for a moral argument that fetal termination may be the preferable option. Not saying that was the case here, but there certainly are cases where it matters.
@Used
You seem to have ignored my question, so hopefully you’re just posting a longer answer that has yet to show up. And God doesn’t define the termination of a fetus as murder (if you want to be accurate, “murder” is undefined in the Bible), so in this case I was using the actual definition, which includes “unlawful.” Judging by the prescription to induce miscarriage as a test for adultery in Numbers, and the difference in punishment for causing a miscarriage in Exodus compared to harming the pregnant woman herself (a fine versus death), I’d say we have a fair basis for knoeing God doesn’t judge the unborn the same as the born.
If you have another common definition, or can quote Scripture for one, I’d be willing to address the topic. Otherwise I’d see like your answer to my question.
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usedCZARsalesman
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:42pmI sent an answer, but for some reason it didn’t show up…don’t feel like re-writing. The basic theme was that forcefully stopping abortion clinics would HURT the pro life cause, due to the sickness and depravity of our culture. I would LOVE to form a “posse” and stop abortion, but that would end in the corrupt government killing all involved for trying to save the lives of babies…if it weren’t for the negative side effects (to the cause) that using violence (only because there are no longer any other options) would bring, you would see me acting in the same manner at abortion clinics as I would have at Newtown…that being said, God may still judge me for my inaction, as my excuse of “not wanting to hurt the cause” might not be good enough for Him.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:45pmLocked- “I see plenty of ground for a moral argument that fetal termination may be the preferable option.”
where in the bible does God say we have the authority to terminate innocent life?
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 1:09pm@Used
Fair enough. I still disagree (I think murder is murder is murder, and our actions against it should be the same), but I respect your view.
@DLV
“where in the bible does God say we have the authority to terminate innocent life?”
Plenty of places, actually. The mass genocides committed in the Old Testament come to mind; even when done for “moral” reasons (ie, stopping child sacrifices), the answer was to kill all the men, women, and children. I believe there’s another explanation for those passages, but most biblical literalists will say that God ordered the killing of innocents.
In regard to the unborn? There are also a few. Numbers 5:11-31 (21-22 specifically) details how God demands ancient Hebrews test a woman accused of adultery by inducing miscarriage. Hosea 13:16 advocates killing the pregnant women of Samaria, as well as the children – clearly the unborn (and even infants) are not considered innocent.
If you are arguing that it’s only moral when God says it’s moral to kill children and the unborn, then we’re in a bind. I’d argue that killing the unborn is never a “good” choice, but sometimes is the “least bad” choice (for example, when the fetus isn’t viable, or when the mother’s life is in danger).
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usedCZARsalesman
Feb. 14, 2013 at 2:00pmI appreciate the open mind…I will say, that as long as our culture stays as morally bankrupt as is currently is, I would not want these women charged with 1st degree murder (the doctors yes)..most of these women have been programmed to believe that there is NOTHING wrong with it and they are under amazing amounts of stress…a “crime of passion” style manslaughter charge is probably more appropriate (this is pointing back to my original post referring to her death as the death penalty for murder).
Just don’t expect my to “feel bad” in a case like this, ESPECIALLY at 33 weeks
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girlnurse
Feb. 14, 2013 at 2:07pmBrother ED. You do realize they could have enduced labor and that baby would have been born alive and well and thriving on its own right??? I guess I do feel bad because I have also made bad choices in life many times and I pray I could be like Jesus to say “Lord forgive her for she did not know what she did” Or as steven said “Lord please do not lay this to her charge”. I admit I am not there yet and I am righteously angry over abortion…Now she cannot repent…it is a sad thing indeed. The husband should repent for his sins.
I do wish to be more like Jesus…..and I do admit I fail miserably. pray for us all.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 4:46pmlocked- you picked up on this but I mean when does God allow us to terminate innocent life by our own standards. All those places in the OT are God’s judgment against nations.
“God ordered the killing of innocents.”
If they are saying this then that is simply wrong. A everyone is guilty before God especially in an evil nation that Israel usually wipes out. And if God decides to take away a child/children through Israel so be it. Like I said, I don’t want to play God. Let God be God. But again no one is innocent. I read the numbers passage and my bible notes and there was nothing about miscarriage only her suffering about whether or not she committed adultery. The only thing about children was if she was lying she would lose her ability to child bear. Hosea is about judgement again using figurative language. Pretty much means they will be judged just in graphic language. Going further with the women in children it just means they will be completely wiped out like Sodom and Gommorah. How many women and children died when God destroyed the cities himself? A lot im sure.
“If you are arguing that it’s only moral when God says it’s moral to kill children and the unborn, then we’re in a bind.”
That precisely what I’m saying. It is only moral when God says it is because he is the standard of morality and hte judge. Sometimes in the OT he tested Israel’s loyalty to him through things like this. Cont.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 4:52pmlocked- children and unborn are only innocent so far as us. God can play judge jury and executioner whenever he wants. So when I say innocent children I always mean by us. I think the OT is pretty clear about innocents being killed. God doesn’t want humans to do it on their own accord but he he will at times do it himself or test people like he did with Saul. It was pretty clear he was testing Saul when he told him to wipe everyone out. Well, he did the same to Israel on a bigger picture. It’s also possible htat ISrael was so horrible that he used humans to see what their own deeds were like first hand. Plenty of explanations none of them end with God being evil.
Lastly, . “I’d argue that killing the unborn is never a “good” choice, but sometimes is the “least bad” choice”
Again, as I said before I can sort of agree to that. Mainly this would focus on if God commanded it himself.
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noslave
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:23pmITS ALL B.S.she couldnt do it sooner??knowing way ahead of time there was problems,will we someday shoot them in the daycare when were tired of them?? how late is late??and to deliver almost all the way out then suck the brains out while they thrash like fish on a hook is real b.s.the mothers health my azz??,the only health hazzard is if the kid dont look like the father,he’ll beat thje crap out of her??
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:08pmEvil people. Like my avatar. Except Sauron is just Bad@ss
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JRook
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:19pmSo I guess the commenters here who agree that the clinic should be shut down would similarly want any physician or hospital who made mistakes that resulted in a mother or baby dying during childbirth to loose their license and be shut down. A medical mistake is no better or worse because you are against reproductive rights and choice.
DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:27pmIt’s not so much about making mistakes JROOK. People who make life and death mistakes at hospitals should be fired but the hospital should not be shut down. I’m just against abortion that’s why I said they’re evil. But I tend not to read what you say because you refuse to listen to reason.
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lemmings4obama
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:41pmA physician’s job and oath require him/her to keep people alive. If there is significant risk of death to the patient over a optional procedure that is in no way necessary to keep said patient alive, such as abortion or in Kanye West’s mother’s case breast augmentation, then the possible revoking of professional license should certainly be investigating. Certainly pro-life supporters will rally behind this as 2 individuals, one innocent, lost their lives. As I would expect pro-abortion supporters to call for a physician’s license if the physician refuse to perform an abortion on a pregnant woman who died due to complications of pregnancy but had asked for the life and in this case threat to be eliminated. To expect otherwise is simply ignorant but expected of JRook.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:30amlocked- still not our position to be taking innocent lives. I don’t care how bad it gets. It’s God’s life not even ours which is why suicide isn’t just shrugged off. If God wants the baby called, he will call it.
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athiest-infedel
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:02pmPro choice here but 33 weeks along, really? Can’t agree with an abortion @ that stage.
DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:09pmWhat exactly is the cutting point for you huh?
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redfish52
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:18pmDLV…I agree with you…what this couple was is extremely selfish…she could have agreed to adoption and would never have had to see the child once out of her body but she chose to have it murdered instead. I have no sympathy for her or her husband but may God take the child into his loving arms.
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:24pmRedfish- Exactly. Well said.
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Verceofreason
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:03pmThe cutting off point is before the fetus can play piano.
encinom
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:14pmThe problem with this article is that it is parroting a bias source. We don’t know what was wrong with the fetus, the article is short on facts and long on the rhetoric of those that want control over women’s bodies.
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:32pmVerce- You’re one sick individual. The joke is in terrible taste.
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:40pmEnc- You’re a burden on the mind. Congrats on your position on murdering babies which is exactly the opposite of the argument about guns killing children huh? So this will just render all previous arguments of your null and void.
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encinom
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:01pmDLV, go run along to your bible camp where you can preach your hatred of your fellow Americans, please show me where in the Constitution does your backward religion get to decide the morality of the nation. Also show me one fact in this article, the lazy Blaze authors parrot the talking points of those that seek to strip women of control over their bodies, even when the facts have not been released.
DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:17pmEnci- Hahahahahahahahaha thanks for the best joke you fool. Who is the one coming to a conservative website to spew hate? You. Still haven’t figured it out that this is a conservative website? Or maybe you have and you are just a troll with a miserable life? Hahaha oh this is too rich! Who is the idiot? You man. I’m closer to bible camp here than I am in most other places? Run little troll before the bridge falls on your head! Hahahahaha
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:20pmEnci- Also women have no rights over something that isn’t their life to take. Just because something is living off of the nutrients of the woman does not mean it’s their life to take. I thought you cared so much about the children? No? Oh well guess you were lying. I have an idea, go stare into Sauron’s eyes a bit more and you can become his zombie. You’re doing such a great job of being an Obama Zombie already. You wouldn’t object to any orders just parrot talking points. Just what Sauron needs. No freewill. No humanity just brainwashing day in and day out. Why you’ll be right at home little Enci.
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DLV
Feb. 13, 2013 at 7:57pmEnci- Dear I’m not preaching hate, I just can’t stand morons. You always say the same thing which is why I think you’re brainwashed. I’m generally pretty level headed except when it comes to stupidity and I don’t think I’ve ever seen one bright post from you. It’s pretty simple actually to see where I’m coming from. You’re just an idiot plain and simple. By the way, you never answered my question are you really that idiotic that you don’t know this is a conservative sit or are you really just a big big troll? I’m all ears.
P.S. You’d still make a great Sauron zombie henchman.
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chips1
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:20pmENCI:
I’m supprised you haven’t promoted the elimination of Stephen Hawking. He can’t play golf, You know!!!
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Techcon
Feb. 13, 2013 at 11:18pm@encinom-an,
Stop looking in the mirror when you post, STUPID!
Later HATER.
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 9:10am@Atheist-Infedel
The article mentions the reason being “brain abnormalities,” but makes no mention of what they were. It could have been DS; it could have been a terminal disease. Without more facts it’s hard to condemn. What we DO know is that only .04% of all abortions are in the third trimester, and it’s all but unheard of for them to be “abortions of convenience;” they almost always involve a wanted child (like in this case; the name was already picked out) while is discovered to have terrible health problems, or a case that endangers the health of the pregnant woman.
For those who are ACTUALLY Christian, pray for the husband in this case. The poor man must be having a terrible time.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 11:31amlocked- still not our position to be taking innocent lives. I don’t care how bad it gets. It’s God’s life not even ours which is why suicide isn’t just shrugged off. If God wants the baby called, he will call it
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:33pm@DLV
“still not our position to be taking innocent lives. I don’t care how bad it gets.”
YOU don’t care. Plenty of people disagree, including some I know personally who had to watch their newborn child die within minutes of being born.
“It’s God’s life not even ours which is why suicide isn’t just shrugged off. If God wants the baby called, he will call it”
I opine only a sadist would argue a baby should die immediately after birth in a life full of pain, rather than be aborted before it can feel any. Sometimes there are no “good” outcomes (potentially in the case of this article, for example), and the best we can do is to minimize the suffering of those involved. God knows this: He knows everything. Including which children will or will not be born.
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DLV
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:48pmlocked- I opine only a sadist would argue a baby should die immediately after birth in a life full of pain”
This is the only time I might allow it to happen. Like I said I don’t like playing God but I do see some validity here.
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Locked
Feb. 14, 2013 at 12:54pm@DLV
“This is the only time I might allow it to happen. Like I said I don’t like playing God but I do see some validity here.”
I am glad you feel this way; and sorry if I was coming off as overly antagonistic. A family friend had to go through this. Prior to her experience, both of our families were pro-life in all cases; ever since it happened (this was years ago) and I saw how much it broke her to see her very-much wanted child die after being born without several organs, I realized that sometimes there is a moral case for abortion.
I’m actually a bit ashamed that I couldn’t even think of such an example until an experience like that touched someone close to me. It really made me reevaluate a lot of my strongest-held beliefs, and I’ve tried to be less stubborn and dismissive of others’ views (even non-Christians) since then.
May God bless you!
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LeadNotFollow
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:02pmWhen it’s time for the abortionist to leave this World, hopefully God will inflict him with all the pain suffered by all the aborted babies that he murdered.
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Keatonc33
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:39pmzygotes don’t have developed enough brains to feel pain…. but i will meet you half way! late term abortions are wrong.. 3 months is law for a reason.
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SistaTriscuit
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:08pmKeaton, by 9 weeks the neural pathways that sense PAIN are fully developed. This is proven scientific fact. Have you ever seen a 10 week old “zygote”? It’s amazing how on a 3D ultrasound that “blob of tissue’ that you’re referring to as a zygote looks amazingly like a tiny human being.
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CREENDN
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:11pmkeaton, it is uncertain whether a fetus experiences pain during the first trimester of development, when most abortions occur. However, recent studies have shown that the fetus most certainly does feel pain by the end the second trimester, when late-term and partial birth abortions are performed. Since general anesthesia is not used in most of these procedures, the fetus most likely feels pain during the procedure as limbs may be pulled off and scissors are used to puncture the base of its skull.
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Hidden_Manna
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:00pmthat ‘karma’ thing sucks…. huh?
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Walkabout
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:14pmI don’t think many people families can handle a kid with sever congenital birth defects. Some grow into it. Other times it tears families apart. I believe I know of a husband who abandoned his wife so he would not have to deal with a developmentally disabled child. He stayed married. He sent the paycheck home. But he was away on business quite a bit & theta may have been on purpose. Not sure that was fair burden for the wife.
It does give you pause when a doctor with much experience can still have a patient bleed to death. Apparently late term abortion is riskier than pregnancy.
One of the best cases I know of is a Christian community has a church sponsored & supported home for those with severe congenital defects. It is in the community & makes it much easier on the parents. That is walking the walk.
I really don’t condemn this woman. It seem stupid & risky to have an abortion at 9 months. But I see most people (90%) opt out of having Downs syndrome kids when they find out.
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RabbiDRJerkins
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:58pmShalom,
I am much more concerned about the horrific deaths of all the children this man has murdered than the death of a woman so lacking in any decency or integrity that she hired him to slaughter her own child.
She paid this man to end a life, and it ended hers as well. It is a sad day when a murderer expects sympathy when things go wrong. It is an outrage that some would give it.
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chips1
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:33pmSort of like, buy one, get one free?
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Just_Us2
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:54pmI guess she won’t be having anymore children. Can you imagine looking in to your child’s eyes and telling them you will love them ONLY if they are healthy and normal…so be careful. If you ever get too sick or get brain damage, I will find a legal way to kill you…because God knows I don’t have the time or the resources to handle that…I am in the prime of my life and I can’t have you messing up my life……now run along and play. Sick people….
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tnman65
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:23pmCan’t agree with you more. My little 4 month old (today) Granddaughter came 3 months early and spent the first 2 1/2 months in hospitals. She has had several medical issues already and is likely to have more in the future. How anyone would not want a child because of disabilities is beyond me. If you can’t except it, you probably shouldn’t have kids. I know everyone wants a healthy child but sometimes it just doesn’t work that way. I wonder how her husband feels about the decision now? I wouldn’t want to live with that much guilt.
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13th Imam
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:53pmDEMOCRATS War on Women and Children
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whater39
Feb. 14, 2013 at 10:47amHow is giving women choice, a war on them? Why are you targeting a politican party based off of someone choice in life?
She made her own choice. And she has to deal with the consquences of that.
If any thing Pro-Choice should be a Republican thing. Wouldn’t it be big government restricting a person’s personal freedom on how they want to live their life?
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Rowgue
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:49pmI’m having a hard time feeling sympathy for somebody that thought it was in any way appropriate to abort a baby three weeks away from delivery. Even if I did support abortion in general, that is outright ridiculous and any doctor that would even consider performing that procedure should not be allowed to practice medicine.
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LeadNotFollow
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:49pmWith all of today’s technology, this pregnant woman had to have known much sooner than her 33rd week, that the baby had abnormalities.
Her baby was due in just 5-7 weeks. This baby was developed enough to live outside the womb at 33 weeks, when she was aborted.
Did she all of a sudden decide that she did not want a less than perfect child?
She was an elementary school teacher. Did she not love all kids?
This was a horrible tragedy for the aborted baby and the mother.
At least we know the innocent baby is in Heaven.
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Cavallo
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:58pmUnion member.
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SpankDaMonkey
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:48pm.
Two-fer…..
People let this go, God will deal with this. Pray for them but let it go…..
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Jenny Lind
Feb. 13, 2013 at 6:21pmYes, Spank, I could not understand the level of hatred here. I see total tragedy, for all three. My guess fear drove them, thinking how would they take care of a disabled child?, and they made a way to fast decision. It cost them beyond anything they could have imagined. A dead mother, baby, and a man who will live in regret and pain for all his life, no matter how he goes on, or if he has a family in the future, he will never be free of this. The worst choices are made in fear-I thank my Heavenly Father I can turn to Him in all things that go wrong in my life, and I truly wish they had had faith enough to trust their Heavenly Father in this. For all you including justanotheropinion, as we judge, so we are judged. We all make bad choices, and thankfully, the people on the blaze, and I enjoy so many of you, are not the final judges. I will let God judge what was in her heart, I will not hate her. I will pray her young husband will find some peace, and come closer to his Maker. I do hope this doctor will no longer practice medicine, and I am glad I do not have to answer for HIS sins.
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65Mustang
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:48pmSometimes you feel like you are between a rock and a hard place. They did not make the decision lightly and everyone pays for taking a life. My thoughts will be with her family and husband.
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LarryL2
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:47pmHow many times can you ‘purportedly’ and be taken seriously. Why not get the facts before writing the story…
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Cavallo
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:46pmAbnormalities? So it was a crippled child, not the threat of life on the mother? Then they murdered a crippled child that they had already named. In some cultures abnormality is when the baby is female. More girl babies are murdered than boy babies, especially around the world. But this is a right that the left champions; infanticide they see as a right.. self defense against criminals and the government is not a right.
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Xanderson
Feb. 13, 2013 at 8:24pmMore female babies are aborted than male right here in the USA. Not a peep from NOW on this fact–no mention of a war on (tiny) women from the left on this one. Can you say “hypocrit”?
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mycomet123
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:45pmCarhart has a clinic in Bellevue Nebraska, & unfortunately spends his time going to other states killing babies there too! The man thinks he’s on a “mission to save women”–please pray for this man, he needs it! Several years ago he was cited by the humane society for having horses which he was basically starving to death. Evil man–please again, PRAY FOR HIM, PRAY THAT HE RETIRES SOON!
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happ77
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:01pmPray that he expires soon.
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biohazard23
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:44pmThis “mother” chose to murder her developmentally abnormal baby? WTH? How did that pro-choice thingy work out for ya? Gee, hope her husband is happy that he lost both his wife and his daughter. And no, I cannot say that I feel much sympathy for those involved here. Did they even realize what a late term abortion entails? Actually, I wonder if they even really bothered to find out.
Heather Walker did not choose to murder her son and instead chose to have him, physical defects and all. She got the opportunity to love her him and to hold him despite knowing that his deformity was fatal. Too bad some people, like this so-called “mother”, can’t see past the nose on their faces.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/05/19/facebook-bans-mother-for-posting-photos-of-baby-born-with-severe-birth-defect/
OK, let the liberals start their screeching and bashing in 3… 2… 1…
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RJJinGadsden
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:53pmBIOHAZARD, This whole thing is disgusting. But to haphazardly quote somebody else:
If it will save just one person….
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biohazard23
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:33pmRJ, you just know the libs will start their howling soon. Infanticide is a liberal’s holiest ritual and don’t anyone question it. The fact that it’s legal doesn’t make it right, but libs don’t let pesky things like that get in their way. They would rather just call you a misogynist.
Of course, I wonder why all those “pro-women” liberals don’t kick up a fuss over the slaughter of baby girls that occurs every single day in this country in the name of “choice”? Disgusting and depraved, that’s what murdering babies is and they know it.
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biohazard23
Feb. 13, 2013 at 5:36pmAnd it looks like “choice” didn’t save squat for anybody in this instance, does it?
I’m gonna go hug my children now. :)
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thibx
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:35pmshe is an idiot.
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biohazard23
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:44pmThat’s being generous.
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rs9
Feb. 13, 2013 at 4:45pmAbortion stops a beating heart, uh make that two
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