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‘Stingrays’: A New Law Enforcement Tool to Hunt Terrorists or Trample the 4th Amendment?

Feb. 15, 2013 10:30pm Christopher Santarelli

A federal court judge in Arizona next month will decide if the Department of Justice overstepped the 4^thamendment when it used a device called a “stingray” to collect evidence against David Daniel Rigmaiden, a 30-year-old Arizona man accused of leading a massive identity theft ring from 2005 to 2008. Stingrays look like cell towers but are used to collect cell information (even when the phone is not in use) from everyone within reach of the device. Law enforcement officials say the tool is used in a targeted way to search for terror suspects. the defendant in this case says his fourth amendment rights were violated.

On ‘Real News’ Friday the panel discussed if the ‘stingray’ and Arizona case falls in line with previous instances in recent years where the U.S. government has been accused of twisting the Constitution and individual rights in the interest of fighting terrorism:

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Comments (63)

lynnissmart
Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:16am
So disgusted….period..

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Jaracing2
Posted on February 17, 2013 at 6:59am
Find some Meth heads And let them know how much copper in those towers and they will have them taken apart and sold to scrap yard in a day!!!!

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deadend
Posted on February 17, 2013 at 5:33am
Those of you who would give up part of your liberty for security deserve to lose both your liberty and your security

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wilbstal
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 5:28pm
I take the battery out plus my home has no signal or near towers. a lead shield and maybe aluminum foil will stop any signal even with the battery in it, use your head defeat thes A holes

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tbeachhead
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 3:46pm
Here’s the issue…I cannot autonomously own the airwaves…any more than I can prevent my car from being seen on a national highway…If they are not violating my rights using helicopters, they are not violating my rights when I use the airwaves. “Private cell phone calls” is an oxymoron.

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- tbeachhead
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 3:54pm
  Monitoring broadcasts cannot be put in the same category as a covert romp through my underwear drawer. Every time I use the media, I’ve made my voice public, and that’s the harsh reality. Am I credulous enough to believe that any government bent on stopping the egregious assault on all electronic communication committed by the Anarchists of Anonymous and the terrorists of the progressive left is going to commit to a hands-off policy, when it comes to monitoring their activity or following their footpaths to their lairs?
  
  Report this comment
- Junter
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:31am
  Disagree, please get a warrant before wiretapping or collecting my data as I pass by the stringray device. I didn’t commit a crime.
  
  Report this comment
omgfolks
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 3:18pm
In some ways cops are just like opportunist crminals. Take this for example, they utiltize a questionable piece of equipment for purpose not intended and say “Oh we didn’t know it was illegal” , isn’t that the same as the synthetic pot that started being sold? Or the hidden GPS devices LEO’s have used without warrants. Police officers have a duty to make certain the tools they use are legal to use BEFORE THEY USE THEM, afterall are they not responsible to uphold the law? Using the Fear Tactics of “terrorism” as an excuse does not make it right for them to employ technology which will most probably be restricted and or forbiden once challenged in court. Our LEO’s in their zeal to be the toughest gang going needs reigned in, and controlled. They are scaring people in this country and not earning the respect of their positions. Respect through intimidation is not Respect, however they seem to beleive it is.

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tonypro
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 2:12pm
Any way you paint it, it’s not a part of the expanding police state, it’s a part of the police state that already exist, and has been put in the public eye.

For those of you that think this is only used to target criminals, you’re fooling yourself. If it was suppose to only target an individual, then it would have been designed that way.

Wake up people, the great evil has it’s tools in place to control us. It’s not a matter of if, but when.

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The Big Mick
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:47pm
A tangent here.
Anybody watching FX The Americans?
I keep thinking about “Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skulls”.
Spielberg seems to be trying to Mock and Make Fun of McCarthy and the Attempt to OUT Communism in America while simultaneously ACKNOWLEDGING that The Reds WERE out to get us.
Same with The Americans–trying to mock The Reagan Years while Admitting there WAS “a bear in the woods-pile”.
On the other hand it is NOT reasonable to expect anything BUT Cognitive Dissonance from commiequeers.

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The Big Mick
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:41pm
THIRDARCHON 12:35
ThirdArch as much as I AGREE (shock you?) with you on the Trend Toward Tyrannical Federal Government, and the need to FIGHT that, the OTHER problem, to me, inherent in your description: “careen out of control down the railroad tracks towards a fascist police state” is that I see Socialism and Fascism like F.Hayek in “The Road to Serfdom”, L.Neil Smith in his Libertarian Utopia “North American Confederation” Sci-Fi Novels and other Libertarian writers, and Tom Wolfe in the Millennial Edition of “Time” see them. Wolfe points out that Hitler and Stalin, far from being Polar Opposites, were actually Fraternal, if Fratricidal, Collectivist Socialist Statist TWINS.
To ME the OWS (I call them Occupods—said of Airline Toilets and Those Possessed of Alien Life Forms) is JUST as Tyrannical and Statist–and thus FASCIST in THAT sense, as the National Socialist Workers Party in Germany. Their distinctions are without a difference. I see no DIFFERENCE in the Tyranny of the One Vote over 50% and The Tyranny of The One. I acknowledge there may be some inherent cognitive dissonances in the broad sweep of my thinking here.

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The Big Mick
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:30am
I don’t know. Can we move from Legal-ese to Philosophical here?
At bottom, Cell Phones are a RADIO, that’s using the PUBLIC “air-waves”. I keep wondering if I’d have an assumed “right to privacy” if I was communicating with Semaphore Flags or Flash Mirrors. It’s “out there”. How is it all that different from posting on line?
Intuitively and Viscerally I got some cognitive dissonance going on here. Since I hope to see American Revolution v3.0 kicking off in my life time, I really don’t want Nanny Sammy eavesdropping on the 21st Century “Sons of Liberty” or “Committees of Correspondence”. On the other hand, the only people I hate worse than the Sandyknickered JihadiNazis and the La Raza Reconquistas (and sometimes it’s what the Boys in Vegas call “a push”) are these High Tech Hacker/Identity Thieves E-gangsta Terrorists. I WANT those people impaled, don’t much CARE how.
Seems to me that as long as I have the ability to TURN OFF, any kind of “transponder” or “identity signal” when I turn my phone off, so I CANNOT be tracked WHEN I am NOT using the “Public Air Waves” then there is No Harm and No Foul, here. The second I go “on the air” I figure I am fair game for Signal Triangulation and Intercept.
Long as I can drop off the grid when NOT calling I figure I don’t have a beef.
What say you?

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- The_Jerk
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:14pm
  Big, “… (even when the phone is not in use)… ,” is the part that oversteps our freedom.
  
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- The Third Archon
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:35pm
  “I WANT those people impaled, don’t much CARE how.”
  And that’s PRECISELY the attitude causing America to careen out of control down the railroad tracks towards a fascist police state.
  
  Report this comment
- WarMunger_Al
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:53pm
  problem is, turning off your phone doesn’t kill your signal
  
  Report this comment
- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:29pm
  yeah, I did read “even when on” and I DO get it. And I agree “not cool, Nanny Sammy NOT cool!” My point is that IF I COULD turn it off then I WOULDN’T have a beef–I don’t think, but am open to argument.
  ThirdArch I’d buy what you are getting at about “Police State” IF it wasn’t for 2 things.
  One is that it FAILS to make the VITAL distinction, moral and constitutional, between those working for FOREIGN INVADERS and ENEMIES—La Raza, Sandyknickers—and Those Fighting for The Constitution, The Republic and God Endowed Unalienable Individual Rights. The latter HAVE those rights, Invaders and Islamist Hegemonists, and their Enablers, have FORFEITED those rights. I WILL NOT, on some Faux Moral Equivalence or “one size fits all” “all or nothing” FALSE dilemma grounds let those who would DESTROY my God Endowed Unalienable Individual Rights USE said rights as a COVER for their DEPREDATIONS of those rights.
  No, there are The Free and The Tyrants, Tyrant Wannabees, and Tyrant Enablers, and I want the latter slaughtered.
  THEY HAVE no “rights” except to die horribly and efficiently as a warning to all other Tyrants, wannabes, enablers.
  I DO. I want MINE respected and THEM DEAD. This CAN and SHOULD be DONE. Any moral or rhetorical Equivalence is FALSE.
  Cont.
  
  Report this comment
- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:43pm
  ThirdArch as much as I AGREE (shock you?) with you on the Trend Toward Tyrannical Federal Government, and the need to FIGHT that, the OTHER problem, to me, inherent in your description: “careen out of control down the railroad tracks towards a fascist police state” is that I see Socialism and Fascism like F.Hayek in “The Road to Serfdom”, L.Neil Smith in his Libertarian Utopia “North American Confederation” Sci-Fi Novels and other Libertarian writers, and Tom Wolfe in the Millennial Edition of “Time” see them. Wolfe points out that Hitler and Stalin, far from being Polar Opposites, were actually Fraternal, if Fratricidal, Collectivist Socialist Statist TWINS.
  To ME the OWS (I call them Occupods—said of Airline Toilets and Those Possessed of Alien Life Forms) is JUST as Tyrannical and Statist–and thus FASCIST in THAT sense, as the National Socialist Workers Party in Germany. Their distinctions are without a difference. I see no DIFFERENCE in the Tyranny of the One Vote over 50% and The Tyranny of The One. I acknowledge there may be some inherent cognitive dissonances in the broad sweep of my thinking here
  
  Report this comment
woodyee
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 8:40am
I hope the Arizona Courts slap Obammy with a crap-filled sock in the face.

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- Fubared
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 4:36pm
  Add some broken glass, shake, and swing that sock again and again.
  
  Report this comment
media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:55am
Oh and of course there is the intellectual property of computer programmers, you could write a computer program that you can also claim as your intellectual property, so, it boils down to what the heaven are you doing, and distinguishing your personal private property from prohibited actions, such as identity theft.

You might have computer code on a smart phone that is proprietary and allows you to have an edge with the competition, such as interacting with an inventory databases, so you could in theory sub-divide data streams according to function to allow them to be more easilty managed, time will tell.

You would need three data exchange format categories

1. data storage (all)
2. public data exchange (credit card purchases, database inquiries, hardware inquiries(cameras))
3. private data exchange (film producers, video games, business software/management, hardware (cameras), etc.)

If you were too strict with the ability to search, you would not be able to protect private property, for example software patents on devices, audit credit card purchases, etc.

This is why we have lawyers, judges and juries, to make sense of it all.

Oh, and clever politicians?

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- GroundZero is Nuclear Demolition x3
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:32pm
  Software can not be patented, even though the BAR has con-ed the court system in to recognizing it as such. Intellectual property is protected by COPYRIGHT, you can only patent things that can be manufactured. Manufacture an IC that preforms that SPECIFIC function, and yes a patent would apply, but that takes A LOT of work and is very difficult to update/modify, so NO companies do not take this rout.
  
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media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:44am
Since there is little or no separation between computer code and data files, it take effort to protect 4th amendment rights? Smart phones and other devices are designed to mix the two formats, while it would be easy to protect voice recordings, photographs and videos, it’s a little more complicated with digital instructions that tell “go to computer 123 and tell it to do (abc)”. Once you give instructions to another computer, you are not talking about passive private property, but actions of the device independent of private property?

Regulations would have to basically disallow data storage formats from being mixed with programming code, which might be a good thing it if it was achievable, however with billions of devices out in use, with expected life times of 1 to 5 years, it would be take a lot of consensus to move things in a new direction, especially if it involved increased costs?

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media-bias-steals-elections
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:36am
Identity theft is rampant because of one reason, you don’t have control of your personal information? Imagine if every time someone wanted to use your information, they first had to log onto your web site, and ask permission?

Instead of giving someone your social security number you give them a temporary transaction code to conduct a transaction with “x, y, z” limits, all of which is easily tracked by either financial institutions and law enforcement?

The difference between a visual search and electronic communications is simply this, electronic communications can contain files with “active instructions”, versus someone taking photographs which simply records pixels on film from passive private property?

The right to privacy serves a couple of basic purposes, it removes the temptation of people to “covet” that which is not theirs that they did not earn, and it removes the ability of the public to conjecture what is happening and why? It’s none of your business why a member of Congress tells someone they love them, who is a young 24 year old lady, is it? That was an easy situation to relate to and explain, but what if your situation is not?

Unreasonable searches were basically harrassment, that led to theivery by the government? You don’t need that rack of lamb, give it to the king? Once you have to start explaining to people every nuance of your life you stop having time to live?

Freedom and silence don’t mix?

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- Kupo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:57am
  I think you may be confused regarding the proper use of question marks?
  
  Report this comment
- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:32am
  naw kupo, I get it. These are questions without clear answers. Trade offs, values, ease of use verses security.
  
  Report this comment
KevINtampa
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:21am
If you have a GSM phone it’s easy to tell that when it’s off that it’s not really off…

Turn off your phone and set it next to a speaker. When you here interference in the speaker (like when you receive a text or the phone rings) it’s the radios activating and doing “something”…even though the phone is “OFF”.

This was first reported on iPhones. Ever wonder why Apple started the trend of making the batteries non-removable on cell phones? This is your answer.

Signed,
Carrier IQ

http://gizmodo.com/5864220/what-is-carrier-iq
Trevor Eckhart, the developer who first outed Carrier IQ, has demonstrated that the software can log virtually anything you do on your phone: calls, location, even keystrokes. That means it could in theory log all your passwords and credit card numbers (not encrypted over public networks to boot ) when you punch them in.

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Cavallo
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:06am
Our own government is far more dangerous to us than any terrorist.

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- dabrain
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:22am
  Just watched the Russel Crowe version of Robin Hood.
  If you are a veteran take the situation and the ending especially, to heart.
  The King John in it is a little over the top, but I’ll be darned if he doesn’t resemble another usurper-poser.
  It seems the desire of chief executives to be emperors is never ending.
  Sometimes they even say so.
  
  Report this comment
- KevINtampa
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:45am
  Side note tangent since you brought up Robin Hood: I hate it when people say Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor… It’s inaccurate and changes the meaning of the entire story.
  
  He stole from the government, and gave to the poor. because the king and his lords were unfairly taxing the people.
  
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- Advection
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 5:53am
  Conversely, our government officials would say “Our own people are far more dangerous than any terrorists”.
  
  That’s why they’re flirting with the idea of discarding the Constitution. They don’t see themselves as our servants. They see us as their servants.
  
  They don’t see their job as securing our liberty and freedom but as securing their power, wealth and privilege.
  
  They don’t see the military, police and courts as tools to protect the nation and people but as tools to protect themselves.
  
  It’s sadly obvious that a revolution took place. You could say that criminal syndicates have seized control of the federal government.
  
  Report this comment
- WarMunger_Al
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:32am
  I agree 100%. People on here are worried about Iran, or North Korea, etc….But the true threat to America is the government and the people within this country that seem to despise freedom.
  
  Report this comment
- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:33am
  Brain:
  Hence the Motto of the Commonwealth of VA: “Sic SEMPER Tyrannis!”
  
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Chancellor
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:43am
I learned a long time ago, and to this day never have and never will, NOT to carry a cell phone around on your person. They can and do track them.

People think if they have them “Turned off” or the “Tracking system” not turned on that they can’t be tracked……..Want to bet your life on that? Because you are very wrong!

I spent 31 years in the military 17 of them in the middle east. A lot of middle eastern people believe that also. Even the “throw away” phones can be tracked……

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- KevINtampa
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:40am
  Also, it’s common for nefarious thinking individuals to swap phones at bars and clubs. They buy a popular phone (errhrmm, iPhone) and disable it so it doesn’t turn on. They go to a bar with it and wait for an identical model phone to be placed on a bar or table. They walk by as if completely wasted, cause a distraction like spilling a drink on the bar or stumbling into the table, and slight of hand swap out the phones. The poor chump who had his phone swapped thinks it’s broken because a glass of beer spilled on it or it fell off the bar and broke. Meanwhile the bad guy has several hours to make phone calls on a line that’s not monitored or tracked and access to personal accounts and what not.
  
  This is why you should have a distinctive phone cover. Don’t think that by soft locking it you are all good… All someone has to do is factory reset the phone in the boot loader and that lock goes away but the phone number is still active and calls can be made as well as texts.
  
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AUsername
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:37am
Was Steve Irwin a terrorist or enemy of the state by chance?

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- dissentnow
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 8:17am
  Activate sad trombone sound
  WA WA WA WAAAAAAAAAA
  
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eagledown
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:47pm
The government doesn’t own technology.

From a hardware and software standpoint, the Government is no smarter or more technologically advanced than your 16 year old hacker next door.

The private sector, and Open Source code Junkies/Programmers love to get around stuff like this.
They will always find counter technologies.

Terror suspects. Right. That threat was overstated for a reason.

We The People are now the Governments greatest threat.

Ya, People who love the Constitution, Freedom and Liberty; you know; dangerous things like that; are now on terrorist watch lists.

You know it’s over when you think you’ll be freer if you move to the Soviet Union.

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Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:21pm
Just like the road department putting up a rough road sign, instead of fixing the road, if they had secured the border, they would have had less to worry about, concerning terrorists.
I blame Big, Fat Sister.

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- Maji
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:59pm
  Simple standard governmental powers!!!!!!
  
  If I can’t do it….I can’t give the power to
  the government to do it!
  
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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:35am
  TAJ.
  Nostalgia?
  
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TH777
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:17pm
Question: This has nothing to do with the article but I have a question and I need to post it some where.
On my way home from work tonight I saw a bumper sticker on the back of a truck. After I read it I was able to see that the driver was “Asian”. I don’t know if it matters that he was Asian but I’m giving as much information as I have. The bumper sticker had a picture of the United States outline all in blue and then Gold Stars that represent the states. Along side of it but a little further down were the Red and White Stripes of the United States Flag. Above that were the words: “States United” and then it said “Less America”. Does anyone know what that bumper sticker means?

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- Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:14am
  I cannot be positive yet it appears the phrase “United States less united” refers to the ongoing Immigration fiasco and Obama’s pending amnesty for them. Some references online when searched via yahoo and google talk of illegal immigrants who are ‘American but not American.’
  
  I strongly suggest look to the symbolism used by pro-amnesty groups of the Democrats for your answer.
  
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- TH777
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:25am
  @SNOWLEOPARD: Thank you! I will check it out. I’ve never seen a bumper sticker like that and it truly peaked my interest. I just couldn’t figure out what it could possibly mean. Thank you again for responding to my question!
  
  Report this comment
- tajloc
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:50am
  I saw one that said “NIXON in 2016″
  What does it mean?
  
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Iammany1
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:01pm
And the infringements just keep coming.

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- DEFCON4
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:13pm
  “To everyone within the reach of the device”.
  
  Report this comment
- Caniac Steve
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:30pm
  and the more they can get away with the more embolden they’ll get too !
  
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KidCharlemagne
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:45pm
“In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.”
-James Madison, Constitutional Convention, June 29, 1787

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- shogun459
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 11:06pm
  Since many US troops refuse to fire on US citizens, Obama is now dismantling the Army and Ground forces in favor of State Dept. Troops, previously called ‘Gov. Contractors’ (mercs).
  
  Mercenaries Shoot anybody they are paid to.
  
  Report this comment
banjarmon
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:38pm
Stingray appears to trample the (th and 10th Amendment too!!

Amendment 9 – Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10 – Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

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MRARGUELLES267
Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:37pm
We must do whatever we can to combat terrorism and threats to our country. Only wrongdoers need to be worried as their the ones who threaten our lives and liberty.

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- banjarmon
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:50pm
  Tyrannical government IS The THREAT TO OUR FREEDOMS!!!
  
  Report this comment
- rtk
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:53pm
  Unless you are targeted in error. Ask two Asian women delivering newspapers. When government has unlimited power it will use it. Try putting the genie back in the bottle.
  
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- Iammany1
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:58pm
  There is the comment of a short sighted slave.
  
  Report this comment
- MRARGUELLES267
  Posted on February 15, 2013 at 10:59pm
  Nothing is perfect. But I do think we need to stop threats to our country and lively hood. With the advancement of technology it’s more difficult to stop wrongdoers. I just wish there was peace instead of corruption and evil.
  
  Report this comment
- Smokey_Bojangles
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:26am
  AS Long s it is blacks,Latinos, or maybe eventually one day a Muslim its ok?
  You do realize that White Christians are the enemy of the Government,right?
  
  Report this comment
- Winedude
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:02am
  @ Smokey: “You do realize that White Christians are the enemy of the Government,right?” Almost true…stupid White Christians are the enemy of the Government…
  
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- dissentnow
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 8:15am
  “We must do whatever we can to combat terrorism and threats to our country. Only wrongdoers need to be worried as their the ones who threaten our lives and liberty”
  
  This is the “if ya aint got nothin’ to hide, then ya aint got nothin’ to worry about” attitude that, during the Bush administration, set the precedent for the constitutional violations of the Obama administration.
  
  Report this comment
- WarMunger_Al
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:39am
  the government is the terrorist
  
  Report this comment
- Fubared
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 4:37pm
  Wino
  Why would you willingly put yourself on a list like that? Oh, skip the Christian part. I get it.
  
  Report this comment

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