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Vatican Says Conclave to Elect the Next Pope Could Be Moved Up

Feb. 16, 2013 9:02am Madeleine Morgenstern

Pope Benedict XVI exchanges gifts with Guatemala’s President Otto Perez Molina, during a private audience at Vatican, Saturday, Feb. 16, 2013. (AP)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican raised the possibility Saturday that the conclave to elect the next pope might start sooner than March 15, the earliest date possible under current rules that require a 15-20 day waiting period after the papacy becomes vacant.

Vatican spokesman The Rev. Federico Lombardi said that the Vatican rules on papal succession are open to interpretation and that “this is a question that people are discussing.”

“It is possible that church authorities can prepare a proposal to be taken up by the cardinals on the first day after the papal vacancy” to move up the start of conclave, Lombardi said.

He explained that the 15-20 day rule is in place to allow time for the arrival of “all those (cardinals) who are absent” to take part in the conclave in the usual circumstances of convening after a pope dies. But in this case, the cardinals already know that this pontificate will end on Feb. 28 with the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, and therefore can get to Rome in plenty of time to take part in the conclave, Lombardi said.

The date of the conclave’s start is important because Holy Week begins March 24, with Palm Sunday Mass followed by Easter Sunday on March 31. In order to have a new pope in place in time for the most solemn liturgical period on the church calendar, he would need to be installed as pope by Sunday, March 17. Given the tight time-frame, speculation has mounted that some sort of arrangement would be made to start the conclave earlier than a strict reading of the law would allow.

Questions about the start of the conclave have swirled ever since Benedict announced on Feb. 11 that he would retire, the first pontiff in 600 years to abdicate rather than stay in office until death. As a result, his decision has created a host of questions about how the Vatican will proceed, given that its procedures for the so-called “sede vacante” – or vacant seat – period between papacies won’t begin with a pope’s death.

Lombardi also gave more details about Benedict’s final audiences and plans for retirement, saying already 35,000 people have requested tickets for his final general audience to be held in St. Peter’s Square on Feb. 27. He said Benedict would spend about two months in the papal summer retreat at Castel Gandolfo south of Rome immediately after his abdication, to allow enough time for renovations to be completed on his retirement home – a converted monastery inside the Vatican walls.

That means Benedict would be expected to return to the Vatican, no longer as pope, around the end of April or beginning of May, Lombardi said.

He was asked if and when the pope would meet with his successor and whether he would participate in his installation Mass; like many open questions about the end of Benedict’s papacy, both issues simply haven’t yet been resolved, Lombardi said.

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Comments (215)

dudeofwrath
Posted on February 17, 2013 at 6:24am
@Coredestroy: No, the Pope cannot judge if you go to Heaven or not. The Bible makes it pretty clear that God and God alone makes that judgment.

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- john vincent
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 10:20am
  -dude
  im answering u here-
  
  Papal infallibility is probably the lynch pin that proves the imposition of power. Paul was more correct than Peter, and even he recognized his shortcomings- ex cathedra??? yes, but only from God
  
  For God’s sake dude, even Peter was weighed in the scales and found to be wanting. The apostles never taught this monstrous lie- the heirarchy certainly did- but please do not confuse the two.
  
  You may want to read the link below which is true of any pope.
  
  Report this comment
- tonypro
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:39pm
  I could be way off here, but I’m guessing we will here the name Bertone.
  
  Report this comment
Jake Dog2
Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:53am
Conclave??? I thought that is what witches and the KKK held .
Just kidding. I have no animosity toward the Catholic church in general. I would like to see them clean up the pedofile thing allow priest and nuns to marry. Allow women to become priest.

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- dudeofwrath
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 6:20am
  Just to clear a couple of things up…
  
  @Jake Dog2: The “Pedophile thing” is being cleaned up. Out of over 300 alegations last year all but approx. 30 were false; and those 30 were from the ’50 and ’60.
  Priests and Nuns cannot marry because of the symbolic nature of their rolls in the church + it frees them up from being distracted from prayer. I’m sure that they knew this BEFORE they signed on. No one forced them into a life of celebacy, they chose it.
  Again, woman cannot be priests because of the symbolic nature of the roll, Priest is Symbolic of Christ-he was not a woman. Woman is symbol of his holy church. These people know this when they join. This is how they want it. This is how we as Catholics want it to remain.
  @ John Vincent: The pope is human. He makes mistakes. He goes to confession like the rest of the layity. He is only infallible when he makes an official decree in the name of God. Preaching of Dogma=Infallible, Which team to bet on for Superbowl=fallible.
  
  http://www.catholic.com any question on this stuff can be easily found here.
  God bless
  
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Jake Dog2
Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:40am
RJJ
WOW good point. This has kind of thrown a curve to the Catholic church. It is now what do we do. I would like to see them open up the basment to see what is hidden there. Could be a major shock to the world I would bet. Bigger than Area 51. It is now Lord of the ring time for the Catholic church

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john vincent
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:49pm
Enclave? Secret meetings? Secret votes? Politics of the highest order? Sounds like the makings of a
John Grisham novel. When I talk to folks who darn near worship the ‘church,’ i’m both saddened and amused.

Saddened because the most serious of topics is delegated to opinions; and amused because the cleverest opinion wins the day. For instance, the alleged first pope Peter, was a both a Jew and he was married. In addition, Paul the apostle had to set straight Peter the hypocrite for his partial allegiance; ahem, goodbye papal infallibility.

Anyway, my interest in the next pope is curiosity, just like yours.

http://sienna48.blog.com/2010/11/23/the-pope-any-pope/

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- Platonician
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:26pm
  Understanding the complexity of a 20 centuries old organization is not simple. It implies effort and a deep knowledge of history, law, theology, etc. It’s natural that when you hear such terms as conclave, – not enclave btw, enclave is just a part of a country- you associate it with popular culture references to chicanery. Keep in mind however that ANY human organization needs rules and while the Bible gives us moral guidelines, organizing any kind of group means notions such as law, legality and due process.
  
  You may ask why does the Church need to organize at all. Well, to keep the Word of God alive, as it has done for the last 20 centuries, after all the produce of such proceedings is the Bible itself, which was preserved and compiled by the Church!
  
  That’s one of the problems with the fallacy of “sola scriptura”, it leaves the individual who adheres to that shallow dogma without answers to what he sees as unsolvable contradictions, as every system has apparent contradictions, even formalized systems like physics or chemistry. That’s why protestantism will inevitable devolve into atheism and nihilism and also why there are literally thousands of protestant denominations in the USA, most of them doomed to oblivion.
  
  Report this comment
- DeOppressoLiber
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:28am
  Do most Catholicism know tha cardinal Dolan backed a lady for saint hood who supported Stalin, Mao and How Chi Mihn. It was Dorthy Day part of the catholic workers movement. He is a communist and he is in good running to make pope.
  
  When I informed my mother she could not beleive it. Why do rank and file Catholics support a church that supports communism and keep their heads in the sand about it?
  
  The progressives need a Dolan or a Latin American pope to work in concert with dear leader to railroad this country. With that set up and amnesty for the illegals that would seal the deal on freedom
  
  Reagan and JPII did it to the Soviets
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:46am
  @PLATO………..”That’s why all false religion will inevitable devolve into oblivion.
  
  The world’s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her. Revelation 17:16 What will prompt this action? Revelation 17:17 “God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought.”
  What must you do if you do not want to share the fate of false religion? Revelation 18:4 “Get out of her, my people,”
  
  Report this comment
- john vincent
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:12am
  -plato
  
  enclave- verb surround and isolate
  i appreciate the distinction u note;
  
  but in this context, the Vatican fits rather well, so ill rephrase for you: the conclave within the enclave….
  
  anyway the religion of the world, of which catholicism is included. will fall by the wayside, the cc has always been a religious fraternity duping the minds of the simple- who by the way, follow man and not God, I could care less about centuries of history regarding the cc and the complexities you cite. God’s word is plain as to WHO to follow
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 8:09pm
  MYCOMET…………transfiguration
  http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004466 If choose to read it this will explain it. If you just want to debate back and forth then best of luck to you too.
  
  Report this comment
ddo2012
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 5:09pm
I have read several comments here by those who are avid supporters of the roman catholic church. I expect you folks are going to be real surprised when you realize the judgment the catholic church is going to fall into. It’s time to get out of the rcc and into the true church of Jesus Christ. One that believes and teaches the Bible and not the traditions of men. One that teaches that salvation is by God’s grace through faith, alone, and nothing to do with works. The book of Revelation, particularly chapters 3, 17 and 18 aren’t very kind to the catholic church and its hierarchy. The head of the catholic church is laughing all the way to hell for the deception he has carried out against the catholic church, and I’m not referring to the pope. He’s just an ordinary man, like me, only I’m not living in spiritual blindness and leading 1.2 billion people into the darkness of satan. God have mercy on you poor souls and may He give you just a little more time to repent and see the truth before Jesus returns in the Rapture to take His true church home to New Jerusalem.

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- Platonician
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 5:35pm
  “by God’s grace through faith, alone, and nothing to do with works.”
  
  So actions don’t matter?
  My friend you are a victim of the Obamas of Christianity, Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, the fallacies they crafted and you are repeating were lies. Read about them, you will discover that all the reformers were narcissists avid of power. Millions died because of their pride and ignorance, they caused wars.
  
  While the Bible is essential, you need the Magisterium of the Church, which is just the teaching authority that enables us to fully understand the word of God. The Bible is like the head of a body, if you cut the head of a person, you don’t have the person, you have nothing, you need the whole body, you need the Church and its tradition!
  
  Report this comment
- Coredestroy
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:32pm
  So if the Pope said I can’t go to heaven, then I can’t? Does he have the final say, according to the catholic church? I know what I think, I’m just curious what the RC church’s decision is on this question.
  
  Report this comment
- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:50pm
  “One that believes and teaches the Bible and not the traditions of men.”
  
  My Bible says, 2 Thes 2:15 “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” Doesn’t yours?
  
  “One that teaches that salvation is by God’s grace through faith, alone, and nothing to do with works.”
  
  My Bible says, Philippians 2:12, “So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urgings, WORK with anxious concern TO ACHIEVE YOUR SALVATION
  
  John 3:21, But he who ACTS in the truth comes into the light, to make clear that his DEEDS are done in God
  
  Romans 2:5 states, “In spite of this, your hard and impenitent heart is storing up retribution for that day of wrath when the just judgement of God will be revealed, when He will repay every man for what he has DONE…”
  
  1 Peter 1:17 says, “In prayer you call upon the Father who judges each one justly on the basis of his ACTIONS. Since this is so, conduct yourselves, reverently during this sojourn in a strange land”.
  
  You mention Revelation, did you skip over 22:12, “Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his CONDUCT DESERVES”
  
  Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus spoke that we must feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort the imprisoned, and visit the sick!
  
  Doesn’t your Bible mention these things?
  
  Report this comment
- watashbuddyfriend
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 7:28pm
  Amen @ddo2012, and thanks! Maybe, someone, it could be the last one to come to know Jesus Christ as Personal Saviour, and bring about the Rapture of the Church (Beleivers in Jesus Christ)!
  
  Report this comment
- watashbuddyfriend
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 7:32pm
  And, one more point @ddo2012, one must remember that following the Rapture of the Church, Phase II of the Roman Empire will come into play during the 7-year Tribulation!
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:05pm
  Good works are the result of one’s salvation. Not the other way around.
  
  4But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; 8for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, that no one would boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.
  
  Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has come to nothing. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel. 7Neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children. But, “In Isaac will your seed be called.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as a seed. 9For this is a word of promise, “At the appointed time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” 10Not only so, but Rebecca also conceived by one, by our father Isaac. 11For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls,
  
  Report this comment
- Average_Joseph
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:09pm
  @DD02012
  
  Why all this hate/jealousy of the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church, as with all Christian Churches, is basically good. Unfortunately it is overseen by men. Men have flaws. But does the fact that men have flaws mean that a church’s teachings are wrong; I think not. We as Christians all believe in the same God, that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, that the Bible is the Word of God. Our churches may have different traditions but we are all striving for the same thing. Think of it this way; when a shepherd is bringing his flock of sheep up a hill does he make them march in a single line, one right after another, or does he let them go up the hill the way they see fit but still guide them in the same direction?
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:34pm
  The RCC is basically good? I think not. Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except one–God. Mk 10:18
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:48pm
  @THEOTHER “Good works are the result of one’s salvation. Not the other way around.”
  
  Matthew 10:22 “he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.”
  
  James 2:18 Nevertheless, a certain one will say: ” You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.
  
  James 2:21 Was not Abraham our Father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the alter? 22 You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected,
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:16am
  GREEN, Scripture does not trump Scripture. You can’t toss out half of Romans and most of Hebrews simply because of two verses in James.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:53am
  @THEOTHER……..”GREEN, Scripture does not trump Scripture. ”
  
  No, but scripture can explain scripture.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:21am
  @PLATO……..”the Magisterium of the Church,”?
  
  Do you mean with it’s authoritative,domineering, pompous, arrogant, hierarchy?
  The Apostles had a dispute about who would be the greatest of them. Luke 9:46-48
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:00am
  GREEN, I agree, but again, what is said in James does not trump what is said in Romans and Hebrews very clearly – that works is NOT responsible for salvation – faith is.
  
  Report this comment
- Average_Joseph
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:04am
  @TTHEOTHERBEREAN
  
  Your knowledge of Scripture is outstanding. And your auguments seem strong but reading your comments the only thought that comes to mind is “I am hearing Pharisees speak.” I pray for you and hope you can find love and contentment in your heart and soul.
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:15am
  Thanks for your prayers Joseph, but you’ll have to give me an example of the pharisee thing. If I seem knowledgeable and accurate, what causes you to say that I am a whitewashed tomb, or a viper? That doesn’t seem to fit. You’re a JW or a Mormon, right? That would explain it.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 10:47am
  @THEOTHER………”You’re a JW or a Mormon, right? That would explain it.”
  
  I thoght you said you know all about JW’s then you should know by AVERAGE_JOE that you can rule out JW because of the flag symbols in the profile picture. I guess your not as knowledgeable as you thought about JW’s.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 11:01am
  sorry ………you’re not as
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 11:26am
  @THEOTHER…………”works is NOT responsible for salvation – faith is.”
  
  The two work hand in hand. “faith without works is dead”
  James 2:14 Of what benefit is it , my brother, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?
  “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works. James 2:18
  James 2:26 Indeed.as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
  James 2:19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
  
  You need more than belief and faith, you must exercise that faith.
  John 3:16 ………………that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:10pm
  MYCOMET………”And death & hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. The second death is the death of the soul because they are eternally separated from God.”
  
  Yes the second death after those who are resurrected during the thousand years which is the judgement day not a 24 hour day. Those who do not live by God’s standards after being given that same opportunity as Addam and Eve had will suffer eternal distruction “the second death. in Revelation 20:4,4, and 21:8 They will no longer exist…..period
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:26pm
  GREEN, our sense of right and wrong demands that our “good works” should outweigh our “bad works,” but pride is our worst enemy.
  
  There are simply too many verses that teach that one is not saved by works to believe otherwise. For example, Titus and Ephesians explain James. Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; 9 but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning; 11knowing that such a one is perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.
  
  Eph 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:04pm
  @THEOTHER…….”There are simply too many verses that teach that one is not saved by works to believe otherwise”
  
  I didn’t say you are saved by works, but that faith and works go hand in hand. That’s why faith without works is dead. I thought I was clear but sorry if you misunderstood. Like the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead. I think many times we are saying the same thing but looking past each other THEOTHER
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:11pm
  @THEOTHER…………”the NWT is not a reliable translation.”
  
  Then put it to the test. Like 1John 4:1 or even like Glenn Beck says when quotting Jefferson “Question with boldness” Don’t just believe what apostate web sites or books say. If you want to buy a Ford car do you go to Toyota’s web site for info?
  http://www.jw.org/en
  
  Report this comment
- mycomet123
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:01pm
  @GREENWOOD, You stated, “Yes, the second death after those who are resurrected during the thousand years”. Sweat pea, read Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER OVER THEM, but they will be priest of God & of Christ & will reign with him for a thousand years. Consider this, you believe that the soul & body die as one. Well, explain the transfiguration to me than, Matthew17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses & Elijah, talking with Jesus. Now how can that be since Jesus hasn’t even died yet, let alone Resurrected, & Moses & Elijah are dead & buried??.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:28pm
  @MYCOMET…………”Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. ”
  
  That refers to the anointed, the holy ones, the little flock, some translations say saints, the 144,000 Revelation 7:4 also 14:1
  Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of those who will rule with Christ as kings and priest for a thousand years. Not everyone will rule and have nobody to rule over will they?
  Revelation 21:3 Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people.
  
  Report this comment
- Average_Joseph
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 6:01pm
  @THEOTHERBEREAN
  
  This is not about me but just to make it clear to you I am neither a Jehovah’s Witness nor a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My church affiliation really has nothing to do with this conversation; though I do find it interesting that you immediately tried to castigate me as belonging to what many people would consider a “fringe” religious group. I am not as learned as you and in no way have the ability to quote Scripture as well as you, I do see as a “whitewashed tomb.” You have the knowledge but, to me, your replies to most everyone here appear to be from someone who is sour inside. That saddens me. Your trying to shut me down by tagging me with incorrect religious affiliation proves my point. Your zealotry to win a debate by showing your terrific grasp of material only shows that you may recite the Word but you do not live the Word…thus a Pharisee. Read what I posted earlier and you may understand my stance. I will continue to pray and hope that you put this wealth of knowledge to good use by helping people understand the opportunity we have in a life filled with Jesus Christ. Listen carefully for the whispers of the Holy Spirit.
  
  Report this comment
- mycomet123
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 7:19pm
  @GREENWOOD, Sorry but I don’t even know where I would begin to debate with you, since you have misinterrpreted EVERY single scripture passage. Best of luck on your spiritual journey!
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 7:38pm
  @THEOTHER………….”I have been pummeling the WTS and the NWT, exposing the hypocrisy, lies and error. Haven’t you been paying attention?”
  
  In your own mind maybe, but your replies do not have a ring of Truth. You have a preconceived idea and pick and choose and twist scripture to fit your own belief. You are no different than the Catholic Church and their false teachings in my opinion. You never even anwsered my question from the other story a couple days ago. What is a diety? you said JW’s don’t believe in the diety of Christ. You are wrong. And if you really know God why wouldn’t you know his name and use it because Jesus said “I have made your name known to them. John 17:26 Jesus knew it and would have used it any time he quoted scripture which he often did.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 7:55pm
  @MYCOMET………..”Matthew17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses & Elijah, talking with Jesus. Now how can that be since Jesus hasn’t even died yet, let alone Resurrected, & Moses & Elijah are dead & buried??.
  
  If you read on in Matthew 17:9 And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: “Tell this vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” do you see it was a vision.
  
  Report this comment
- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 8:35pm
  @MYCOMET123.…………transfiguration
  http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004466 If choose to read it this will explain it. If you just want to debate back and forth then best of luck to you too.
  
  Report this comment
- Tridentine Catholic
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 4:06am
  http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
  
  Report this comment
- Platonician
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:29pm
  @Greenwood
  “the Magisterium of the Church? Do you mean with it’s authoritative,domineering, pompous, arrogant, hierarchy?”
  
  There is nothing domineering, pompous or arrogant about the pious men that spend their lives studying, praying, serving the Church. All of them have degrees and an education level that would assure them a comfortable and worldly existence, but instead they chose God and his Church.
  The pompous, arrogant ones are the hierarchy of your religious group, WTS, which assumes that only the elders will go to heave, while you stay on earth.
  
  “The JW’s follow one leader Jesus Christ and worship one God Jehovah”
  
  And the hierarchy in Brooklyn NY, about which we don’t know a lot but that they are “the little flock”, the only ones entitled to heaven…
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:42pm
  GREEN, as for faith vs works, yes, James says faith without works is dead, but don’t let works sneak in the back door and take the place of grace. The absolute best “work” you can perform, falls pitifully short of even the least of Jehovah’s standards. One is saved only because “while we are still in our sins” the Father chose us (the elect) before the foundation of the world, and gave us to Jesus Christ, Who holds us in a hand which no one can snatch us from.
  
  You repeated the suggestion to test the NWT, but I have posted many reasons why it fails in trustworthyness. My replies don’t ring of the truth because you have been indoctrinated into accepting and believing only that which the WTS says you may accept and believe. I’m sure free thinkers can see the truth.
  
  The scholars who translated the NWT were not scholars, the WTS misquotes noted scholars out of context and I have demonstrated many incidences where the text has been altered purposely to support WTS dogma. It is a lie to say I have picked and twisted Scripture when quite frankly it is I who has shown you exactly where the WT picks and twists Scripture to suit their dogma.
  
  I thought I answered your “what is a deity” question. When I refer to the Deity of Christ, I am speaking of the fact that He is God Almighty. The Supreme Being. As the Scriptures (some of which I posted) seem to indicate by assigning Him all of the same Attributes as those of the Father.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:52pm
  JOSEPH Perhaps you should find something better to do with your time than attacking people’s character. I’m not here to impress you with my righteousness. Admittedly you can’t participate in the discussion because you don’t feel you are knowledgeable enough (which is wiser than many here) but that was short lived, and instead you attack my character. Pride is our worst enemy.
  
  I really don’t care what you think of me as a person, and I will most l ikely continue to be the person I am until the Lord speaks to my conscience and tells me to be someone else. Until then I will pray, listen, and stand for the truth the best way I know how. If my methods are a little too forward for you then I suggest you just ignore me and go hang out with BROTHER ED.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 4:32pm
  @THEOTHER…………….. D-e-i-t-y = 1. the state of being a god; divine nature 2. a god 3. goddess – the Deity, God
  
  “The scholars who translated the NWT were not scholars, the WTS misquotes noted scholars out of context and I have demonstrated many incidences where the text has been altered ”
  
  Textus Receptus… http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html
  
  It is sad to report that such a noble undertaking was so badly handled (all the more so since it became the basis of Luther’s German translation, and later — with some slight modifications — of the English King James Version). The speed with which the book went through the press meant that it contained literally thousands of typographical errors. What is more, the text was hastily and badly edited from a few late manuscripts (see below, The Text of the Textus Receptus).
  
  Erasmus, having little time to prepare his edition, could only examine manuscripts which came to hand. His haste was so great, in fact, that he did not even write new copies for the printer; rather, he took existing manuscripts, corrected them, and submitted those to the printer. (Erasmus’s corrections are still visible in the manuscript 2.)
  Thus it will be conceded by all reputable scholars — even those who favour the Byzantine text — that the Textus Receptus, in all its various forms, has no textual authority whatsoever. Were it not for the fact that it has been in use for so long as a basis for collations, it could be mercif
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 4:53pm
  GREEN, who is the author?
  
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christos
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 2:58pm
Church Denominations are man made,we/believers receive the +HOLY SPIRIT+ through accepting +JESUS CHRIST+ as our Savior,,,+JESUS+ came to fulfill the law,we do not live under “legalism” anymore,nor do we need our prayers perfected,nor do we need a priest,Mariam or saint to intercede for us,or to confess our sins to,,,no beads,incense,or $,,,accept +JESUS+GOD+ & by Grace/Kindness/Gift of +JESUS+GOD we are Saved.

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- Platonician
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 5:02pm
  My friend such a whimsical attitude will lead you inevitably to “we don’t need God’. The secular, godless, depraved society that we see in America is a direct consequence of such protestant notion. The monsters that divided the Church of God, causing millions of deaths, Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII made use of that fallacy in order to gain power for their own benefit.
  
  The truth is that we need a Church, we need a tradition and Dogma, because we are temporal and flawed beings subject to change and subject to get lost.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:09pm
  We don’t need a man made organization or a “church” for salvation. Jesus’ atoning blood is sufficient. Besides, the RCC is not the same church that Jesus Christ started.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:40pm
  THEOTHER………….”the RCC is not the same church that Jesus Christ started.”
  
  We don’t agree on many things but I’m with you there. Because of the influence of the pagan Greek philosophers like Plato who wrongly assume that these beliefs are based on the Bible. Foremost among Plato’s teachings is the concept that humans have an immortal soul that survives death of the phisical body. Ezekiel 18:4 “The soul that is sinning – it itself wil die.” 1 Corinthians 15:45
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:04pm
  GREEN, I’m glad we can agree.
  
  However, in view of the WTS teaching that man’s soul is not distinct from the human body, if the word “soul” is just another way of referring to the “whole person,” as the WTS teaches, wouldn’t the soul die when the physical body dies?
  
  How do you reconcile the WTS teaching with Matt 10:28 which clearly states it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul?
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:31am
  @THEOTHER………”How do you reconcile the WTS teaching with Matt 10:28 which clearly states it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul?”
  
  Matthew 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.
  
  Gehenna = often translated as hell which is the common grave (hebrew Sheol and greek Hades) but Gehenna symbolizes everlasting destruction no hope of a resurrection.
  http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001642
  
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- SonOfThunder
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 7:07am
  @green, jevohovah witness and watchtower is a cult. You are not christian and do not share our beliefs of Jus. You believe Jesus was not God but Michael the arcangel. You don’t believe in the Trinity which is an essential doctrine of Christianity. The watchtower predicted the end of the world several times which makes it a false prophet according to the Bible. it is a complete hoax and lie of satan.
  
  My advice repent and put your trust in Jesus alone.
  Roman 10:9. 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:10am
  GREEN, your argument did not prove that the soul is an immaterial part of man that cannot survive past death, as the WTS teaches.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 11:52am
  @THEOTHER………”if the word “soul” is just another way of referring to the “whole person,” as the WTS teaches, wouldn’t the soul die when the physical body dies? ”
  
  The soul does die when the physical body dies. But because God has the power to create life and return life by means of a resurrection through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus that is not a problem with God.. Do you not believe that Jesus really died and was resurrected from the dead or not. If he did not die then what was the sacrifice ? The immortal soul is the first lie.
  Genesis 3:4 At this the serpent said to the woman; “You positively will not die.
  Who do you believe God or Satan? And where are Adam and Eve now? Dust or does their soul live on in the spirit world somewhere. If that were the case don’t you think God would have mentioned that to them and us through the Bible? But it says in Genesis 2:17 You will positively DIE. If they did not disobey they would still be alive today.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:34pm
  @SONOF?…..”My advice repent and put your trust in Jesus alone.”
  Thanks for the advice but no thanks.
  You have a lot there and I could pick each one and speak all day long but not enough Characters here.
  1 Cult = easy to get into hard to get out of. They have a leader who does not treat the flock with tenderness and draw desciples after themselves. Acts 20:29,30
  The JW’s follow one leader Jesus Christ and worship one God Jehovah. Jesus did have a pre-human existance in heaven with his Father. Some of the apostles had more than one name. What was Jesus’ name in heaven? he was called the Word which means he was God spoke person.
  Revelation 12:7 and 19:11-16 Are there 2 armies? One led by Michael and the other by the Word?NO Michael simply means if you look it up “one who is like God” Jesus means “Jehovah is my salvation just like many other nameslike Elijah = “my God is Jehovah” Eli = my God + Jah is short for Jehovah. What did Jesus say as he was dying? Eli Eli la’ma’ sa bach tha’ni which means My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?
  Trinity…….comes from ancient Babylon and Egypt so it has pagan roots.
  The End ……..the did predict the end but the apostles themselves also believed it would come during their time as well. But 1914 is the year JW’s still believe is when Jesus began his heavenly rule.
  Revelation 12:10-12 After the war in heaven, the heavens were cleansed and the Devil and his demons were hurled down to the earth. (1914 WWI) I could
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:36pm
  @GREENWOOD, You stated that the soul dies when the physical body dies, well sorry but that is not biblically sound. If you refer to Revelation 20:4 & rev 20:12 it speaks of two periods of judgements going on. Why? because at the end of time in rev 20:12 everyone that has lived will be judged according to the amount of grace that was given to their generation. Refer to Luke 10:12, Jesus states “I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town”. Why? Because Sodom had less knowledge of God, than the current generation during Jesus’s life. Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus refers to the judgement of the generations from His death on the cross till His second coming (Rev 20:12). versus 25:46 states that the unrighteous will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life. Revelation 20;12 And I saw the dead, small & great stand before God; and the books were opened: & another book was opened, which is the book of life: & the dead were judged according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; & death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them: & they were judged every man according to their works. And death & hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. The second death is the death of the soul because they are eternally separated from God.
  
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- snooop1e
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:55pm
  The extra-biblical teaching of the TRINITY is not found anywhere in scripture, neither Jesus nor the Apostles nor any Prophet ever taught of a TRINITY or that God is 3 separate persons. So the question then becomes, why do “BIBLE ONLY”,”SCRIPTURE ALONE” Christians accept an extra biblical public revelation that is not found anywhere in scripture that was introduced almost 300 years AFTER the Apostles died? Where did this teaching coming from, when was the word “TRINITY” first introduced and who introduced it? Also, I find it rather odd that “SCRIPTURE ALONE” Christians rely on extra biblical, non inspired, non scriptural writings of men found at http://www.gotquestions.org in order to “understand” the TRUE meaning of scripture as if scripture alone is not sufficient? If scripture alone is sufficient for all Christians why are “SCRIPTURE ALONE” Christians relying on a non inspired non scriptural source outside of scripture as if scripture alone is not sufficient? These”SCRIPTURE ONLY” Christians rely on websites containing teaching of men who never met or learned from any of the Apostles. Men who do not speak Greek or Hebrew as their native tongue yet at the same time they reject the writings of men who actually did speak Greek and Hebrew and actually lived with and learned directly from the Apostles or their disciples such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Iraneaus, Agustine and Clement. How is relying on http://www.gotquestions.org any different then relying on a Catechism? Odd
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:12pm
  MYCOMET123………”And death & hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. The second death is the death of the soul because they are eternally separated from God.”
  
  Yes the second death after those who are resurrected during the thousand years which is the judgement day not a 24 hour day. Those who do not live by God’s standards after being given that same opportunity as Addam and Eve had will suffer eternal distruction “the second death. in Revelation 20:4,4, and 21:8 They will no longer exist…..period
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:19pm
  MYCOMET………”And death & hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. The second death is the death of the soul because they are eternally separated from God.”
  
  Yes the second death after those who are resurrected during the thousand years which is the judgement day not a 24 hour day. Those who do not live by God’s standards after being given that same opportunity as Addam and Eve had will suffer eternal distruction “the second death. in Revelation 20:4,4, and 21:8 They will no longer exist…..period
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:24pm
  correction………..Revelation 20:4,14, and 21:8 and that’s Adam ………..sorry not paying attention there
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:32pm
  @MYCOMETH………..And death & hell were cast into the lake of fire.
  
  Death and Hades is symbolic for total distruction because how can you cast death, hell or hades which means the grave into the lake of fire.
  Go to Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, niether will mourning nor outcry or pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” [period]
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:40pm
  @SNOOPI…………..”TRINITY is not found anywhere in scripture, neither Jesus nor the Apostles nor any Prophet ever taught of a TRINITY or that God is 3 separate persons. So the question then becomes, why do “BIBLE ONLY”,”SCRIPTURE ALONE” Christians accept an extra biblical public revelation that is not found anywhere in scripture that was introduced almost 300 years AFTER the Apostles died?
  
  Why? because Satan the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. 2Corinthians 4:4
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:02pm
  SNOOP the name “Jehovah” has been inserted into the NWT NT by the WTS wherever the text is believed to refer to the Father. The thousands of Greek MSS we have, some dated from the SECOND CENTURY, always use the words LORD (Greek kurios) and God (Greek theos), but NEVER Jehovah.
  
  Your ranting arguments concerning gotquestions.org are straw men. I don’t agree with the explanations 100% but I would challenge you to find any two scholars who agree completely on anything. I post that link often because arguments sometimes take more than 1500 characters, and they do a fairly good job of explaining most Christian doctrines for blind guides like you and mindless dummies who can’t think for themselves.
  
  Your catechism argument is laughable. Who wrote your catechism? Answer: Men. So stuff your “doctrines of men” attitude.
  
  That also explains the difference between you and I. The Holy Spirit is my teacher, as I read the Bible. The WTS is your teacher as you bleat out the heretical doctrines they teach you to parrot.
  
  While they are yet, mere sinners as you and I, as proclaimed teachers they will judged even more. James 3:1
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:35pm
  THEOTHER……..”The Holy Spirit is my teacher, as I read the Bible.”
  
  Then be careful my friend that you do not grieve the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:30
  Also the unforgiveable sin.
  Matthew 12:31,32 On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.32For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
  
  Notice it says here whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but not the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees knew better but they were always trying to trick Jesus but he knew what was in their heart. That’s why he called them vipers and trees of rotten fruit.
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:13pm
  @SNOOP,Your right in stating that the word “Trinity” is not stated in the Bible, but it is implied. I encourage you to read John chapters 15,16&17,, Jesus states that He & the Father are One in John 17:21. In John 16:7, Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (HOLY SPIRTI) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:21pm
  @GREENWOOD, I’m writing this for the second time because for some reason the Blaze hasn’t printed it yet? Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The SECOND DEATH has no power over them, but they will be priests of God & of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. You believe that the soul & body die as one & will be resurrected as one. Please refer to the Transfiguration in Matthew 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses & Elijah, talking with Jesus. How can this be since Jesus Himself hasn’t even died yet, let alone Resurrected?
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:39pm
  @MYCOMET……….”Jesus states that He & the Father are One in John 17:21.”
  
  You are correct but he also says as he is praying to his Father; John 17:20 I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word;21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me.
  It looks like by your way of thinking they are all part of that TRINITY. I don’t think so. Then it must mean something else, don’t you think?
  
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- snooop1e
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:44pm
  @MYCOMET & THEOTHERBEREAN – I am not a JW I am a Catholic. I am also not a “Sola Scriptura-ist” I accept and affirm the doctrine of the Trinity as handed down by the church that Jesus Christ established. I will reemphasize, it is an intellectual contradiction to say that SCRIPTURE ALONE is sufficient while at the same time using (and advising others to use) non-scriptural, non-inspired writings of men to tell them what scripture means. This is a schizophrenic position. It’s also very confusing to people that SCRIPTURE ALONE Christians reject the writings of early Christians who lived with and learned from the Apostles and their disciples (Clement, Polycarp, Iganatius, Iraneaus, Agustine) while at the same time trusting in non-scriptural, non-inspired writings of men on websites like http://www.gotquestions.org when those men neither speak Hebrew or Greek as their native tongue and did not know or learn directly from the Apostles or their successors. It’s also intellectually dishonest for a SCRIPTURE ALONE Christian to affirm the post Apostolic public revelation of the doctrine of the TRINITY which is not found anywhere in scripture and was never taught by Jesus or the Apostles. Rejecting the Catholic Church while affirming the doctrine of the TRINITY and simultaneously saying you are a SCRIPTURE ALONE Christian is like saying you are a Vegan while holding an egg and denying that chickens exist.
  
  PAX CHRISTI
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 4:44pm
  GREEN, intimating that I am grieving the Holy Spirit because I rely on His leading as I read the Bible, rather than the teachings of men, as you do, is a rather odd accusation to make. I fail to find the necessity for such a statement. Especially in view of the fact that the WTS teaches that “it” is God’s ONLY visible representative on earth, and no other group can lay claim to being witnesses of Jehovah. You are taught that God does not teach His truths through any other organization. The WTS has it sowed up. Jehovah’s Witnesses are reminded of this over and over again throughout WTS literature, and warned that people are utterly unable to ascertain the true meaning of the Scriptures without the Watchtower Society.
  
  That seems to resemble more the blasphemy and grieving the Holy Spirit you mention, than reading the Bible with an open mind while humbly praying that the Holy Spirit will enlighten you to the truth, if you ask me.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 5:00pm
  SNOOP, give it a rest. I’m not going to address your mindless rhetoric and straw man arguments. You sound like a raving loonie, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about and you can’t frame an argument to save your life. I think it’s best if you just keep quiet and let the adults talk here…
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 7:39pm
  @SNOOP, I totally agree with your explanation. The Bible is the living Word of God & is an ascension into Truth! Two people can read the same passage & get two different meanings from it because the Word of God speaks to the indiviual, & not just to the masses. I believe in the Eucharist & the Assumption of the Blessed Mother–no man taught me this but by the Holy Spirit. If someone every tells you your not an adult, take it as a compliment. Jesus stated that you will never enter the Kingdom of God unless you become like little children. Faith involves more so the heart, than the mind. You don’t need to totally understand everything to believe.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 8:33pm
  THEOTHER………….Do you really know God? Can you really know someone if you don’t know or use their name? When Jesus gave the model prayer in Matthew 6:9 “let your name be sanctified” is the very first thing to ask. It was very important to him then it should be very important to all of us too.
  John17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
  
  Jesus didn’t say taking in knowledge of me the only true God. NO, but the one who sent him forth.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 8:59pm
  THEOTHER…….”no other group can lay claim to being witnesses of Jehovah. You are taught that God does not teach His truths through any other organization. The WTS has it sowed up. ”
  
  What other organization uses God’s name[Jehovah] and preaches the Good News of God’s Kingdom from door to door all over the world in almost every land and in over 400 different languages. I’ll bet at one time in your life witnesses came to your door. Everyone has the same opportunity to listen or not. It’s your choice nobody is forcing you to convert or die like some religions today or the Catholic Church in the past. They’re doing just as Jesus commanded to do in Matthew 24:14 “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” Not everyone listened to Jesus and he said if they persecuted me they will persecute you also. John 15:21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me.
  
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- snooop1e
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 10:55pm
  @MYCOMET123 – Not to worry brother. I have nothing but love for everyone in here and I don’t take any of this personally, there was a time when I too would attack anyone who questioned my beliefs. All believers are at some point on their journey towards a deeper understanding of Christ and I would be a hypocrite if I let myself get angry at anyone for reacting the same way that I used to react. My intent is not to provoke anyone to anger in here but to join in the conversation and let people come to their own conclusions. At the end of the day I am not going to change anybody’s mind. All that I can do is join in the conversation. and let the Holy Spirit do the heavy lifting. I came back to the catholic church kicking and screaming after spending many nights working out my faith in fear and trembling. I don’t consider myself any more enlightened than anyone else, just very thankful to God for His Mercy and Grace, Lord knows I never did a thing to deserve it. I admire peoples passion and perseverance in defending what they believe, I wouldn’t expect any less. From my experience Protestant converts are usually very well versed in scripture and tend to know far more about the catholic faith than cradle catholics because most of them have read their way into the church. How can you not respect that right?
  
  PAX CHRISTI
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:31pm
  @Greenwood
  
  “Because of the influence of the pagan Greek philosophers like Plato who wrongly assume that these beliefs are based on the Bible. Foremost among Plato’s teachings is the concept that humans have an immortal soul that survives death of the phisical body.”
  
  This is a common error among protestants. Christianity wasn’t revealed to angels, Christianity was revealed to humans, in a specific historical and cultural context, men with a past. Saint Paul the author of 13 of the books of the New Testament was well versed in Greek philosophy, as Acts 17 proves, several of his Greek disciples composed other books of the Bible including the Gospel of John. This is a well known fact.
  
  This error is based on the fallacy that the reformers, the dividers of the church, used to gain the support of the ignorant, they crafted an absurd vision of Christianity in which there was no past before it, no context, there was no culture but the one that they themselves instilled in it. The problem with this is that it leaves the man to adhere to it completely lost, trying to interpreted himself something he cannot fully understand, that’s why when a protestant studies history he becomes atheist. That’s also why protestants are an easy prey for hateful atheist.
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:33pm
  @Greenwood
  “Trinity…….comes from ancient Babylon and Egypt so it has pagan roots.”
  
  Same with this fallacy, suffice it to say that Aramaic for instance, the language of Jesus, shares the same Semitic roots with Assyrian and Babylonian and with Akkadian! Of course a man like Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the WTS, as most protestant pastors, had not the intellectual background to understand this. While previous ancient religions may have had something similar, this is not a reason to dismiss Jesus own words: Matthew 28:19.
  
  The fallacy of opposing paganism to Christianity has not limits as one can say: oh but you are speaking English, which is a pagan language….
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:35pm
  @SonOfThunder
  
  “jevohovah witness and watchtower is a cult. You are not christian and do not share our beliefs of Jus. You believe Jesus was not God but Michael the arcangel. You don’t believe in the Trinity which is an essential doctrine of Christianity. The watchtower predicted the end of the world several times which makes it a false prophet according to the Bible. it is a complete hoax and lie of satan.”
  
  While I won’t put it that way because I don’t like to antagonize with Christians, even with those of marginal groups, I know that there have been studies by psychologists that show that the WTS a destructive cult, the psychologists were not catholic btw.
  
  http://www.jwfacts.com/
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 12:38pm
  @snooop1e
  
  “It’s also very confusing to people that SCRIPTURE ALONE Christians reject the writings of early Christians who lived with and learned from the Apostles and their disciples”
  
  You are right. In logical terms this is called a sophistry, it was created by the dividers of Christianity, Luther, Calvin, etc, they used it to attract the hateful and the ignorant, it’s amusing that they themselves authored several books of exegesis, while on the other hand claiming that only “sola scriptura” was valid…..
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 19, 2013 at 5:56pm
  @PLATO………”you are speaking English, which is a pagan language….”
  
  Not the language but the thoughts and ideas. Wow
  
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barber2
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:16pm
I knew this topic would attract our atheists who are always looking for an excuse to feed the hate which fuels them. They seem to like to trash any Christian religion because they know that churches who teach love and turning the other cheek are “soft” targets and easy victims ! I would have much more respect for ” militant ” atheists if they took on ” militant” Islam, but since they are cowards, they never do !

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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:13pm
  BARBER2 For someone who complains about other people with nothing better to do than hang around complaining about other people, you sure complain a lot about other people. Don’t you have anything better to do?
  
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The Big Mick
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:15pm
Hmmm. I wonder if one could declare WAR on the ITCC? Ya bark at the Big Dogs…….
Sounds like FUN! Sic EM boys!

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The Big Mick
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:12pm
The only thing that will bring the DungBeetle Prhomos out faster than a “gay” story is a Catholic story.
I continue to find the Cognitive Dissonance between the Prhomos Tolerance of NAMBLA and their Hatred of the RCC deafening.
Lots of spurious logic chopping, “too much info” distinctions on pervert penchants, and stuff like that there in the “that ain’t me!–THOSE guys are the pervs” vein, but in the end (pun!) PEDERASTY is PEDERASTY and it IS Male on Male HOMOsex albeit down an age gradient.
Throw in the as yet unclear picture of how MUCH of “orientation” is SHAPED by male on male sexuality down that age gradient and one wonders what, if anything, of what the Prhomos say can be taken at “face” (pun!) value.
Feminist Writers of the Jeune Ecole have long said Young Lesbianism is almost just a de rigeuer PHASE most tweeny something Fems go THRU and soon grow out of.

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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:16pm
  Well, then there’s nothing like a good preemptive strike, huh.
  
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The Big Mick
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:02pm
TerdArchIn 12:26.
The Observant Student will note how Tarch here has deligated to himself the authority to determine “all things moral” PLUS the authoirty to REDESTRIBUTE somebody ELSE’s “rare books and money” to “more productive uses”.
In this he fails to distinguish HIMSELF from the RCC at all. In effect, he replaces the RCC and The Pope with Himself and the Commiequeers.
Think I’ll go with the Religious guys with a 2 millennia history over the 21st Century Collectivist Statist Redistributionist Pervs.

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rfycom
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:35pm
Here is a new and spicy conspiracy for you. Beck and L. Ron Hubbard’s ghost will select the next pope. Pass it around.

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The Third Archon
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:26pm
Ah, look at all the complicated bureaucracy they have to deal with–all for what? The preservation of an arbitrary hierarchy of authority that purports to be authoritative on all things ‘moral,’ but really couldn’t be the furthest thing from? Just dissolve already, Catholic church! We do just fine without you, and probably would do a lot better with all that wasted energy, such as covering up your scandals or hoarding ancient and rare books and money, put to good productive use.

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- barber2
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:04pm
  Your words reflect a bitter, atheist edge . With all of the hate in this world, we need the message of Christ which is to love, not to hate. Imperfect though Christians may be, at least they acknowledge that beheading their spiritual “opponents” is not the way to reach spiritual paradise nor to make this a better material word. I wish that all Christians would unite and pray. We need some serious miracles to end the hate and horror in today’s world.
  
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- Xanderson
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:38pm
  Please don’t try to speak for anyone but yourself. There are approx. 1 billion earthly souls who will rejoice together in spirit with the installation of our new Pope. Any even more who, while not Catholic, will respectfully watch with pleasant curiosity. Of course, many don’t care at all and that is fine. The few who revel in spewing hate and bile, well it’ll be just like any other day for you guys.
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 4:34pm
  “We do just fine without you, and probably would do a lot better with all that wasted energy”
  
  Hitler, Stalin tried to but it didn’t work too well….You and the fashionable “school of thought” that you think you follow will be long forgotten and Holy Church will still be there: we are 1.2 billion! :D
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:20pm
  Don’t you mean “we are legion?”
  
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LindaMC
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:44am
In closing, our Tribunal acknowledges that Pope Benedict’s complicity in criminal activities of the Vatican Bank (IOR) was compelling his eventual dismissal by the highest officials of the Vatican. But according to our sources, Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone forced Joseph Ratzinger’s resignation immediately, and in direct response to the diplomatic note concerning the arrest warrant that was issued to him by the said nation’s government on February 4, 2013.
We call upon all citizens and governments to assist our efforts to legally and directly disestablish the Vatican, Inc. and arrest its chief officers and clergy who are complicit in crimes against humanity and the ongoing criminal conspiracy to aid and protect child torture and trafficking.
Further bulletins on the events of the Easter Reclamation Campaign will be issued by our Office this week.
Issued 13 February, 2013

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- Gatekeeper
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:09pm
  Please. Please just stop being stupid.
  
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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:18pm
  The “ITCCS” is a phony citizen organization created by Kevin D. Annett,
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:03pm
  @LINDAMC, So let me get this straight –the Pope is being forced to resign for criminal activity. First off, the Vatican is a soverign state. FIND a better resource than your version of the national enquirer.
  
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- barber2
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:06pm
  LIND: And why didn’t you tackle Islam’s Muslim clerics who are “inspiring” their followers to hate and to kill Christians, Jews, and other Muslims ? Oh, let me guess…
  
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- tonypro
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:50pm
  Hate to admit it, but I saw the charges, and arrest threats, and property removal orders by the itccs this week for the first time, and actually fell for it long enough to do some research on them.
  
  Turns out they are pretty much just an anti godly organization that is tied to the u.n.
  
  Go figure, u.n. ties.
  
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- Platonician
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 4:52pm
  “hief officers and clergy who are complicit in crimes against humanity and the ongoing criminal conspiracy to aid and protect child torture and trafficking.”
  
  Crimes like founding schools, hospitals, orphanages universities all across the world, where poor people are fed, ill persons healed and youngsters taught. Catholics have been doing this for 20 centuries, even now while you write this hateful delusions you can be sure there is a catholic priest or nun consoling the afflicted, teaching, etc.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:27pm
  What about all the souls lost due to the false teachings and pagan practices of the RCC? Mayriology, praying to idols, the Mass, etc. If we don’t worship God in the correct manner, it is blasphemy and idol worship, neither of which are acceptable methods of worshiping God.
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:00pm
  I believe that a person who grows up in a church that ‘teaches false doctrine’ will be judged according to what he knows…how is it fair that I am judged by a law I did not know?
  
  There are many good Muslims, Hindus, Buhdists and non-believers that never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel or that heard of Jesus – what is to become of them?
  
  I believe God wants ALL of His children to live with him and that he will prepare a way for them.
  
  Peter tells us that between Good Friday and Easter that Jesus went to the spirit prison and taught the disobedient souls..
  
  I believe those who did not have a chance to accept the Gospel in this life will have the opportunity on the other side to hear and accept or reject the teachings of Christ – else why do we baptize for the dead? 1 Chorinthians 15:29
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:07pm
  THEOTHER………..”acceptable worship to God.”
  
  The sanctification of His Holy name is very important.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:37pm
  ED If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, then we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel.
  
  All people are accountable to God whether or not they come to know Jesus. God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). As sinful humans we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for grace, all would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts. (Romans 1:24-32).
  
  Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.” Jesus did not go “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43).
  
  It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9).
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:38pm
  LDS misinterpret 1 Cor 15:29. Paul is referring to a pagan custom or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults. Notice he uses “they” and not “we.” Regardless, he certainly does not approve of the practice and asks why, if there is no resurrection, would the custom take place? It doesn’t change a person’s eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:48pm
  GREEN, the WTS points to some manuscripts which contain the name Jehovah (a few copies of the Septuagint – the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), but such manuscripts are not held to be reliable.
  
  Since God is often identified as “the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, and Jesus never addressed the Father as Jehovah and even taught that we can address Him as Father – without any mention of the name Jehovah – doesn’t this mean Jehovah is not the only way God can be addressed?
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:15am
  @THEOTHER……”His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43).
  
  Jesus died correct? Like you said Jesus’ body was in the tomb. Sheol and Hades is the common grave of mankind, sometimes translated with the word “hell.” His soul was not in paradise he was dead. Jehovah resurrected him on the 3rd day. He did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection. Luke 23:43 And he said to him: Truly I tell you this day, You will be with me in Paradise.” not “This day you will be in paradise” He will be resurrected as Jesus said in John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is comimg in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out…………….that will be in the Last Day.
  John 3:13 says “no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:23am
  @THEOTHERBEREAN
  
  I never said they were granted mercy, I said they were given the opportunity to hear the gospel on the other side.
  
  Baptism by one who has authority is a requirement to enter into the Kingdom of God.
  
  No one can enter the Kingdom without it.
  
  Baptism by proxy for the dead was practiced by the early Church.
  
  I will find references for you later, I am going to bed now.
  
  In 1 Peter 3:19 it states that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in ‘prison’ not paradise.
  
  I understand your position that all spirits were in this prison until Christ broke the bands of death and freed them…I just believe that ighteous people go to paradise when they die (not heaven – that’s post judgement) and the non-righteous go to spirit prison. The unrighteousness will have the Gospel preached to them there and they can accept it or not.
  
  We preform baptisms on their behalf in case they accept it.
  
  Does it make sense that the early disciples, who were good Jews, believed that since their parents did not know who Jesus was they were consigned to eternal damnation?
  
  Of course not!
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:49am
  @BROTHER_ED………….Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,……..
  10 All that your hand finds to do , do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:12am
  GREEN, Jesus could have easily used a different construction in the Greek language if He meant to say the statement was the only thing taking place that day, (as the NWT implies) rather than they would actually be in paradise that day, as ALL other translations indicate. Note that “Truly, I say to you” which translates amen soi lego is an introductory expression used 74 times in the Gospels. In 73 of the 74 times, the NWT places a break immediately after the phrase. The only time they do NOT, is in Luke 23:43, causing “today” to arrive before the break, therefore rendering “I say to you today,” which is done so the Bible agrees with WT dogma.
  
  John 5:28 and 3:13 in no way even remotely have anything to do with the notion that there is no distinction between the human body and the soul.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:23am
  ED I disagree that the early church practiced baptism for the dead. The Bible clearly teaches that repentance can only take place while you are alive. Once you are dead you will be judged. Luke 16:22 It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. 23 In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. 24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:24am
  @BROTHER_ED……..”I just believe that righteous people go to paradise when they die (not heaven – that’s post judgement) and the non-righteous go to spirit prison. The unrighteousness will have the Gospel preached to them there and they can accept it or not.
  
  That is a false and unscriptural belief rooted in Greek Philosophy.
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:16am
  @GREENWOOD
  
  Regarding the Ecclesiastes reference…I’m sure there are many scriptures that seem to contradict my statements, just as there are many that contradict yours.
  
  I do not profess to understand every verse, but for the most part my interpretation is vindicated.
  
  Regarding the Greek philosophy statement, again I am no expert, but I read much of the scholars and am satisfied that my interpretation holds up.
  
  I think both of these examples show the importance of continued study and prayer to come to a true understanding of the scriptures…it truly is a life long process.
  
  There is much that I know now that I didn’t know before, and I hope to learn much more.
  
  If I am wrong, I will gladly jump ship.
  
  The most beautiful thing I have found do far is that it is God is perfect…he will judge us perfectly…Jesus is the Christ…He died so that all men might be saved if they will accept Him as their Lord and Savior…we cannot do anything to save ourselves…that it is by His grace we are saved…and that I should try my best to be like Him – humble, meek, and kind; living God and all mankind.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:57pm
  THEOTHER…………”the WTS points to some manuscripts which contain the name Jehovah (a few copies of the Septuagint – the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), but such manuscripts are not held to be reliable. ”
  
  We also have the Dead Sea Scrolls which have the Divine name in the form of the Tetragrammaton which appears almost 7,000 times. Maybe you should prove it yourself because the older manuscripts have it and the later it was removed. Psalms 83:19 KJV has it NKJV not 21st Century KJ has it again. What’s going on here????? But we have had this disgreement before. In this age of information the Truth is there if you want to know the Truth. John 17:17 “Your Word is Truth”
  
  Hebrew 10:26 For if we practice sin willfuly after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin left.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:56pm
  @THEOTHER……….”Note that “Truly, I say to you” which translates amen soi lego is an introductory expression used 74 times in the Gospels. In 73 of the 74 times, the NWT places a break immediately after the phrase. ”
  
  Note that punctuation was not used in the scriptures until the 9th century. So with that in mind what makes more sence that Jesus who did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection ment today he would be in paradise or he was telling him on this day? Just asking…………..my friend its been good taking with you but got to go for now. Maybe check in again later tonight.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 2:56pm
  GREEN
  It is essential to WTS theology that Jesus not be identified as “God… the Almighty.” Here is why… http://tetragrammaton.org/Essential.html
  
  As for your “punctuation” argument, it’s hypocritical to chide others for the same infraction that appears in the NWT translation. Evidently it’s not so much an issue of the comma as to where it is placed.
  
  The Greek says “I say to you today with me you will be in paradise.” You can construct that any way you like in your own mind, but there are compelling reasons to believe Jesus meant they would be in paradise (the bosom of Abraham) that very day. I realize your intent is to parrot WT teachings concerning paradise and hell, and I’ll offer more on that later, but for now here’s an interesting article on the comma of Luke 23:43 http://www.gci.org/bible/luke/comma
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 3:43pm
  THEOTHER………….”but there are compelling reasons to believe Jesus meant they would NOT be in paradise (the bosom of Abraham) that very day also. We can disagree I guess.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 4:20pm
  GREEN Let’s lay a foundation so we aren’t talking past each other.
  
  The WTS publication “You can live forever in paradise on earth” p83 says: …Sheol and Hades refer not to a place of torment but to the common grave of all mankind. WTS dogma teaches that a soul, is a life force within the body which also dies when the body dies. There is no conscious existence after death. No bliss, no suffering, all complications “disappear.” No pain, no pleasure, no conscious thought. (WTS ‘Mankind’s Search For God’) We die and return to the dust, just as animals do. Human beings DO NOT posses a soul, or spirit, that goes on living as an intelligent personality after death, when it ceases its association with the body. (WTS Reasoning From the Scriptures p383). Man’s spirit is a “life force” which gradually ceases to function after death. Even the rightous remain in inactive in the grave, until a time of future resurrection. Siting Gen 2:7, JW’s suppose that man does not have a material and immaterial nature. Satan invented that idea. (WTS ‘Let God Be True’) The notion that hell is a place of eternal punishment is a “God-dishonoring religious doctrine.” the idea “that man has an immortal soul and therefore differs from the beast is not Scriptural.”
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 4:22pm
  My rebuttal: Gen 2:7 is telling us what man is (a living being) not what he “is not.” The Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used in reference to a living being. (Brown, Driver, Briggs). Man’s souls “nepesh” can be sad, Deut 28:65, grieved (Job 30:25), in pain (Ps 13:2), distressed (Gen 42:21), bitter (Job 3:20), troubled (Ps 6:3) and cheered (Ps 86:4). Scripture often times refers to our “nepesh” as the inner man within the human being. See 2 Kings 4:27, Ps 42:6, 43:5.
  
  Earlier I discussed Matt 10:28. The body can be killed but the soul cannot. See also Rev 6:9, 10: “souls of those who have been slain, cry out “How long” will you “refrain from judging and avenging your blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Note these souls 1. exist 2. after being slain, and 3. are conscious. It is therefore impossible for the word “soul” to refer to “living beings” in Rev 6:9,10.
  
  Luke 23:46 “Into thy hands, I commit my Spirit.” Spirit, in this verse, is pneuma, which according to Arndt and Gingrich, has a wide range of meaings including wind, breath, life-spirit, soul, the spirit as part of the human personality, the spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit. The only meanings that make any sense in the context of Luke 23:46 are soul, and spirit as part of the human personality. We can therefore conclude that Jesus’ soul went to the Father while His body remained in the tomb.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 4:23pm
  According to 1 Thess 4:14, who will Jesus be bringing with Him when He comes again?
  
  Note that they don’t have bodies yet. Not until verse 16.
  
  What will Jesus be reuniting their bodies with at the resurrection?
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 10:02pm
  @THEOTHER……..According to 1 Thess 4:14, who will Jesus be bringing with Him when He comes again? 1 Thess. 4:13 brothers, (they are anointed) those with a heavenly hope.
  
  Note that they don’t have bodies yet. Not until verse 16. The anointed will be resurrected as spirit brothers of Christ to rule as kings and priests. Just as Jesus died in the flesh and was resurrected in the spirit. Luke 24:39………..a spirit does not have flesh and bones.
  Luke 17:20,21 “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, neither will people be saying, See here! or, There! For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
  1Corinthians 15:50 “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. 15:45 “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a living spirit.15:47The first man is out of the earth and made of dust.; the second man is out of heaven.15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.
  
  They are of the anointed, 144,000 little flock, holy ones, joint heirs with Christ, who will rule over the earth as kings and priests until Jesus hands over the kingdom to God.
  
  1Corinthians 15:24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who sub
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 10:18pm
  1Corinthians 15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
  
  So after the thousand years Jesus is going to hand over the kingdom to his God and Father. At that time the earth will be a paradise and restored to what God’s original purpose was for mankind.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 10:49pm
  Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild -tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
  
  Psalms 37:11 The meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
  And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
  Psalms 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
  And they will reside forever upon it.
  
  Why did God create the earth? for nothing? No, to be inhabited. Isaiah 45:18
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 1:12pm
  GREEN Your answer doesn’t actually answer my question.
  
  Again, who, or what, specifically, will Jesus be bringing back with Him to reunite with their bodies?
  
  My argument is that these are the “souls” of the elect, which have resided in Paradise with Jesus since their death, and these are what Jesus is bringing back with Him to reunite with their physical bodies.
  
  We know the WTS teaches that humans don’t have a soul, so please make a Scriptural argument that proves these are not “souls” which Jesus is bringing back.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 4:41pm
  @THEOTHER……”His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades.
  
  You are confused, you put soul/spirit together like they are the same thing. They are not.
  Soul means one thing and Spirit another.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 5:01pm
  GREEN Please explain the difference, using the Scriptures.
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 10:29pm
  @OTHER………..Please explain the difference, using the Scriptures.”
  
  I’m sure I don’t have to explain because you are so knowledgeable about JW’s.
  Genesis 2:7 says the man came to be a living soul.” Notice that it does not say given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person. also KJ,AS,+DY agree with that rendering. RS,JB,NAB read “being” NE says “creature” Kx reads “person”
  
  Gen. 1:20 “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls……………..
  Gen. 1:21 And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about,………….
  Gen. 1:24 ….”Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds……………….
  1 Peter 3:20″ in Noah’s days………………..a few people, that is eight souls, were carried safely through the water…………KJ,AS,Dy and Kx also raeds souls JB and TEV say” people” RS,NE, and NAB use “persons”
  Gen 9:5 And, besides that, your blood of your souls shall I ask back………….Notice it says blood of your souls. I know a spirit does not have flesh and bone or blood.
  I could list hundreds of examples (soul, person, people, ceature, the man ) LIFE = that which breathes.
  The immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the phiosopher Plato. The hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. Following Alexanders conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts. Before that the Babylonians thought death was a
  
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- Greenwood
  Posted on February 18, 2013 at 11:06pm
  @OTHER…………..Do want examples of Spirit also?
  Psalms 146:4 ” His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”
  
  The “spirit” is active life force.
  
  Eccl.3:19-21 ” There is an eventuality as respects to the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the OTHER dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is ther knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?
  (Because of inheritance of sin and death from Adam, all humans die and return to the dust, as animals do. However because of God’s provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever will be made possible by the resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again for all those who exercise faith in the ransom
  Once again I have hundreds of other examples but not so much time. :-(
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 19, 2013 at 10:36am
  GREEN I tried to set the stage so that we wouldn’t talk past each other, by addressing Gen 2:7. But now you’re merely restating your argument that the body and soul are one and the same.
  
  We can discuss those verses if you like, but they do not answer my question concerning 1 Thess 4:14. Which is: If it is true that man’s “life force” or “soul” is not separate from his body and also dies and remains with the body when the body dies – who or what, is Jesus bringing “back” with Him from paradise to “reunite” with their bodies, which are in the grave? None of your examples explain this.
  
  And I would like to know who the author is of this link which you posted: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html
  
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LindaMC
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:43am
3. A diplomatic note was issued by the said nation’s government to the Vatican’s Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, on Monday, February 4, 2013, informing Bertone of the impending arrest warrant and inviting his office to comply. No reply to this note was received from Cardinal Bertone or his office; but six days later, Pope Benedict resigned.
4. The agreement between our Tribunal and the said nation included a second provision to issue a commercial lien through that nation’s courts against the property and wealth of the Roman Catholic church commencing on Easter Sunday, March 31, 2013. This lien was to be accompanied by a public and global “Easter Reclamation Campaign” whereby Catholic church property was to be occupied and claimed by citizens as public assets forfeited under international law and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
5. It is the decision of our Tribunal and the said nation’s government to proceed with the arrest of Joseph Ratzinger upon his vacating the office of the Roman Pontiff on a charge of crimes against humanity and criminal conspiracy.
6. It is our further decision to proceed as well with the indictment and arrest of Joseph Ratzinger’s successor as Pope on the same charges; and to enforce the commercial lien and “Easter Reclamation Campaign” against the Roman Catholic church, as planned.

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- Platonician
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 6:22pm
  ““Easter Reclamation Campaign” whereby Catholic church property was to be occupied and claimed by citizens as public assets ”
  
  LOL Bring it on. Do you think that dealing with the Catholic Church is like dealing with the American bankers in NY? Have you had the privilege to speak with catholic youngsters? The ones that love their Church: energetic, healthy, worldly enough not to be naive but deeply spiritual. Only their poise will disarm and shame you we are millions!
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:09pm
  We are legion!
  
  Report this comment
LindaMC
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:42am
This is the reason he left:
POPE IS GETTING ARRESTED!. Pope Benedict resigned to avoid arrest, seizure of church wealth by Easter.
Diplomatic Note was issued to Vatican just prior to his resignation
New Pope and Catholic clergy face indictment and arrest as “Easter Reclamation” plan continues
A Global Media Release and Statement from The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and
Brussels: The historically unprecedented resignation of Joseph Ratzinger as Pope this week was compelled by an upcoming action by a European government to issue an arrest warrant against Ratzinger and a public lien against Vatican property and assets by Easter.
The ITCCS Central Office in Brussels is compelled by Pope Benedict’s sudden abdication to disclose the following details:
1. On Friday, February 1, 2013, on the basis of evidence supplied by our affiliated Common Law Court of Justice (itccs.org), our Office concluded an agreement with representatives of a European nation and its courts to secure an arrest warrant against Joseph Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict, for crimes against humanity and ordering a criminal conspiracy.
2. This arrest warrant was to be delivered to the office of the “Holy See” in Rome on Friday, February 15, 2013. It allowed the nation in question to detain Ratzinger as a suspect as a crime if he entered its sovereign territory.
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:09pm
  @LINDAMC, Once again, THE VATICAN IS A SOVERIGN STATE!! The Vatican is their own judge & jury, no one is allowed outside of the Vatican, to investigate anything inside of the Vatican. It’s time for you to investigate the trash your reading because you are spreading LIES.
  
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- barber2
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:24pm
  MY: LIND must be a member of the Chicago radical Left which has founded an entire administration on LIES. You know that so-called ” most transparent administration in history ” ( words repeated again a day ago by Mr. Teleprompter-in-chief ) which spews such Big Lies as ” we don’t have a spending problem,” and who comes up with twisted PC terms like ” investment” ( for …shhhhh: spending you tax money ) and ” misallocation of wealth ” ( for taking as much as we, unfairly , can from those with the bucks we can grab ! )
  
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- barber2
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:38pm
  MY: Think it’s time for the Vatican to declare war on militant Marxism which has raised it’s ugly head again in Europe and in the Obama Administration. And within the church, the issue of materialism must be addressed. When concern for men’s bodies overtakes defense of their innate human rights and their spiritual state , the Church must re-examine its mission on earth. When the ” social justice” movement to provide for man’s physical life on earth overshadows the concern for man’s soul , his individual human rights, and his spiritual mission, the Church must address this confusion within its own ranks. Just what is the role of the Church ?
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:57pm
  @BARBER2, The Church is a hospital for sinners & unfortunately that includes the hierarchy of the Church. I pray for the Church & it’s leaders. I do not hestitate to speak the Truth, because sometimes the choir needs to preach to the pulpit & tell them to practice what they preach!
  
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- barber2
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 2:34pm
  MY: Everyone needs to speak the truth. The church leaders are humans and, as such , as capable of being as imperfect as any other . Even Saul Alinsky knew the power of that imperfection when he advised, think its Rule 10, his Radicals to ” hold Christians up to their own standards ” which they can not meet but by which you can mock them 24/7 ! And , yes, the church is a hospital and we are all in need of healing !
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:32pm
  It isn’t “the church” that heals you.
  
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- Marine25
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:39pm
  @barber
  you don’t have any what the words ‘marxist’ or ‘militant’ mean, do you?
  
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conservativewoman
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:40am
Hold on Catholics, the next few weeks will be awful. We are going to hear so many lies, so many foolish, ridiculous ideas about our Church, our faith. People who normally do not trust the media will feed on the lies because it supports their bigotry. They will jeer and shout evil, but we will keep on walking in our faith as Jesus did, as the apostles did. The gates of hell will not prevail agains the Church.

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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:31pm
  @CONSERVATIVEWOMAN
  
  This Latter Day Saint will not participate in the aforementioned activities.
  
  The last thing we need right now is more divisiveness.
  
  You are free to worship who, when and how you please – without ridicule.
  
  May God give you an extra measure of strength and comfort during this difficult time.
  
  Report this comment
- John655
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:09pm
  @ Brother Ed
  
  I’m glad to read that you will not be joining in the lies about Catholics and our faith but where is the divisiveness.and ridicule that you are accusing Conservativewoman of having?
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:13pm
  @ BROTHER ED, Thanks for your christian support! @CONSERVATIVEWOMAN, Satan persecutes what he hates & fears the most!
  
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- conservativewoman
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 3:45pm
  Dear Brother_Ed
  Thank you so much and may God bless you.
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 3:57pm
  @JOHN
  
  No divisiveness on her part…I was explaining the need to support each other.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:41pm
  Good idea ED. Stand around and celebrate heresy. Revel in it. Be loud and proud about how you stand for it. Way to represent.
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:14pm
  @THEOTHERBEREAN
  
  I am proud to bear my testimony that:
  
  I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
  
  I believe the Book of Mormon to be another testament that Jesus is the Christ.
  
  I also believe the Bible to be the word of God.
  
  I believe that all men have the right to worship who, when, and how they may.
  
  I believe there was a falling away (an apostasy) and that the power and authority of the priesthood was lost. I believe this happened shortly after the last apostle died.
  
  I believe that power and authority was restored to the Earth to Joseph Smith.
  
  I believe we are the only church which has the authority to preform the necessary ordinances that enable us to return to live with our Heavenly Father.
  
  And I said all of this without once denouncing your church, nor implying that you are not (or can never) be ‘saved’ because you believe in ‘false doctrine’.
  
  I love all my Christian brothers and sisters and encourage them to be active in their church.
  
  If they would like to investigate my church, I’d love to show them…if not, we can still be the best of friends and I promise not to ‘pray for their souls’.
  
  Gid has a plan for each if us. My job is to follow His commandments, as I understand them, to the best of my ability. To bear my testimony when called upon. And to love everyone as He would do if He were here.
  
  He will never take away their ability to choose, and neither will I.
  
  He invites, so do I.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:14am
  ED Point by point:
  
  Joseph Smith uttered many false prophecies. The Bible says it only takes one and you don’t speak for Him.
  
  The Book of Mormon came through the false prophet Joseph Smith.
  
  Joseph Smith taught that you should believe the Bible is the “Word of God” only so far as your conscience tells you to believe it. He also taught that it has been corrupted, is unreliable, and anyone who believes it is “of the devil.” http://tinyurl.com/8o2uzzl
  
  I agree, we all have free will.
  
  There is absolutely NO evidence of any apostasy, nor a need for a “restoration” of the Gospel. History and archeology prove that the Bible we have today is authentic.
  
  The Bible says all “Authority” in heaven and on earth, resides with Jesus Christ. Matt 28:18
  
  You did not bash my religion in your comments Ed, but LDS Apostles, Prophets and Presidents insist that Christianity is “of the devil.” LDS Apostle B. H. Roberts wrote, “Saddening as the thought may seem, the Church founded by the labors of Jesus and His Apostles was destroyed from the earth; the Gospel was perverted; its ordinances were changed; its laws were transgressed; its covenant was, on the part of man, broken; and the world was left to flounder in the darkness of a long period of apostasy from God… a universal apostasy from the Christian doctrine and the Christian Church took place” (D.H.C., Vol. I, Introduction, pp. 39 and 41).
  
  These truths do not alter your ability to choose.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 12:29am
  ED The following is how your Church (LDS) views my church – Christianity:
  
  http://www.evidenceministries.org/2012/03/mormonism%E2%80%99s-hypocritical-attack/
  
  My religion was hatched in hell.[1]
  –My Christianity is perverted and apostate.[2]
  –My Church is the Church of the Devil.[3]
  –My Church is wrong.[4]
  –My Church is the anti-Christ.[5]
  –My Church is evil and is the Whore of Babylon.[6]
  –My Church is leading me to hell.[7]
  –My Church will be hewn down and cast into the fire of no return.[8]
  –My Heavenly Father is imaginary[9] and invented.[10]
  –My Jesus is mythical.[11]
  –My Trinity is a monster.[12]
  –My creeds are an abomination.[13]
  –My justification is pernicious.[14]
  –My grace is a fallacious doctrine originated by Satan.[15]
  –My pastor is corrupt.[16]
  –My pastor is presumptuous and blasphemous for performing marriages and offering communion.[17]
  –My Bible is untrustworthy.[18]
  –I am a fool for believing in the Bible alone.[19]
  –I am a child of the devil.[20]
  –My baptism is invalid.[21]
  –I am unforgiven.[22]
  –I am damned.[23]
  –I know nothing of God.[24]
  –My hope of salvation is influenced by the devil.[25]
  –I have no right to preach the gospel.[26]
  –I am not a true Christian.[27]
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 8:55am
  @THEOTHERBEREAN
  
  Is that my church talking about yours, or your church talking about mine. ;)
  
  We believe we are the true church of Jesus Christ.
  
  If that implies that yours is not, so be it.
  
  I will say that the early leaders of our church came from many religious backgrounds and brought their baggage with them.
  
  The quotes you quoted are not missionary tools – it is not what I would say to anyone.
  
  Some of those quotes are taken out of context.
  
  Not everything a church leader says is doctrine.
  
  The ‘iron rod’ spoken of in Nephi’s dream is the ‘word of God’. Those who cling to the ‘iron rod’ will be led to the ‘tree if life’. The ‘word of God’ is the the scriptures. It does not say anything about a specific church.
  
  The ‘Church of the Lamb’ consists of all good people heading toward the light. The ”Church if the Devil’ is comprised of all those who fight the ‘Church of the Lamb’. The ‘Church of the Lamb’ is NOT just members of the LDS church.
  
  If we are the true church (I said IF), as we claim to be, and you are preventing people from joining the church, which side would you be considered to be on?
  
  I know you think you are ‘saving’ people, but you should recognize that you may be wrong.
  
  As with any church, our members are at different levels of understanding. Our leaders are not people that have had any special training and have to pass an apptitude test to become leaders. This means that occasionally some will make statement
  
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- brother_ed
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:18am
  *statements that are not doctrinally sound.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:44am
  ED point by point…
  
  That was your church lying about mine.
  
  Your Jesus Christ is not the same Jesus Christ described in the Bible.
  
  You said if that implies that mine is not, then so be it. So much for Mr. nice guy, eh? Mormons are clearly wolves in sheeps clothing. That’s the way you roll.
  
  False prophecy and heretical teachings are not just baggage. False prophets and those who follow them, end up in the lake of fire for eternity. Where the flames never cease and their worm never dies.
  
  Of course you wouldn’t tell the truth when proselyting. The Mormon Missionary manual says not to tell them everything at the door. With good reason. Who would give you even a second of their time if you told people up front that Christianity is entirely of the devil?
  
  I quoted the LDS website. How can the quotes be out of context? Show me.
  
  When your church leaders say “so sayeth the Lord” it is only church doctrine until the next church leader comes along insisting that what God told THEM is now the truth.
  
  I agree the Word of God is in the Scriptures, but that means the BoM to you and the Bible exclusively to me.
  
  If I am “preventing” someone from doing something than you are too. We are both arguing for what we believe.
  
  More…
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 9:48am
  All cults bastardize the Scriptures so they seem to support that same lie about their particular church. Biblically, all one needs is faith in Jesus Christ, and “the church” is the entire body of believers in Jesus Christ.
  
  I can neither save nor condemn people. Jesus does that. I may argue my beliefs and condemn unBiblical and false doctrines. Yes, I could be wrong. Please correct me if I am, but you can only use the Bible. Everything else is but the teachings of men.
  
  Although your leaders claim to speak for God, Mormons are free to pick and choose what they believe. Don’t like that page? No problem. Go ahead and rip it out.
  
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Remember_Benghazi
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:28am
No matter who it is, he will still be a geriatric virgin who thinks he has the unchallengeable authority to tell us how to have sex. Only missionary, lights off, eyes closed, and don’t you dare enjoy it.

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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:44am
  I think you fail to understand the Malachy prophecy. This pope will either be the anti christ or the false prophet
  
  The resurrection/rapture comes http://youtu.be/CBsYDhNxFlU
  
  The only way to be saved is through the Gospel
  
  Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
  
  10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  
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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:22pm
  The Malachy Prophesy is a hoax.
  
  http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-the-prophecies-of-st-malachy-suggest-we-are-living-in-the-end-times
  
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- The Third Archon
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:30pm
  ALL prophecies are hoaxes.
- snooop1e
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 12:40pm
  @THERAPTURECOMES – The invisible “RAPTURE” is a 19th Century heresy invented by Charles Nelson Darby (around 1832) This is what happens when we try to twist scripture to fit man made doctrines, It just doesn’t work. The fabric of scripture is woven together PERFECTLY by the Holy Spirit so that there are no contradictions. It’s only when we grasp one thread and pull it out of context that the entire fabric becomes distorted. It is not possible to twist even one verse or passage of Gods word and have it not distort or contradict other passages. In this regard Protest-ant theology is an Either-Or proposition whereas the truth of scripture is Both-And. For instance God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever should believe in Him might be saved AND Not everyone who calls Jesus Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but ONLY those who DO the will of Jesus Father in Heaven AND we are justified by what we DO and NOT by Faith Alone AND anyone who eats the bread and drinks the cup without recognizing the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ eats and drinks condemnation upon himself AND If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left AND the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. See, no confusion, no contradictions, Gods truth is everlasting and unchanging : )
  
  (Jn 3:16, Matt 7:21, Jm 2:24, 1 Cor 11:27-29, Heb 10:26, 1 Tim 3:15)
  
  PAX CHRISTI
  
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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:08pm
  THE THIRD ARCHON
  
  I am adopting you for my pray for an atheist movement. You are eternally in my prayers.
  
  “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
  
  Matt. 5:43-46
  
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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:28pm
  SNOOP1E
  
  Sorry but that is just not the case
  
  John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
  
  2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
  
  3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
  
  This passage tells the church/bride that Christ goes to the fathers house to prepare a place for the church/bride AT THE FATHERS HOUSE. You will note that in the post rapture theory the bride goes into the air and meets Christ and then does a big U-turn and returns with Christ
  
  John 14:1-3 shows the church/bride being taken to the Father house to be with Christ. If you have any Hebraic studies then you would know that this is a ancient Hebraic marriage custom. The bride stays in seclusion with the bridegroom for 7 days = 7 years = 7 year tribulation
  
  The church is not meant for wrath 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9-11, Rev 3:10
  
  It is a pre trib rapture without a doubt
  
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- THERAPTURCOMES
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:32pm
  DUDLEY DO-RIGHT
  
  Yes the Malachy prophecies are from Catholicism but satan has his own counterfeit prophecies that are mixed with truth
  
  In their vision of the prophecies the 112 pope is a good guy
  
  In truth, the next pope is either the false prophet or the anti christ himself. Either way, it is a sign of the end times
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:38pm
  @THERAPTURECOMES, I’m just assuming here that you are refferring to 2 Thessalonians 2:4– Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Is this temple the anti-christ is sitting in the Catholic Church?????? NO IT’S NOT!!!! First off, as the gospels state the spirit of the anti-christ is anyone that denies Jesus is the Son of God. This temple that 2Thess 2:4 is reffering to can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, & that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? The temple that the anti-christ wants to invade is everyone’s own spiritual temple within them. Satan wants to fill that space with evil by denying Christ & turning to sin.
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:46pm
  @THERAPTURECOMETH, I think you need to investigate St Malachy’s prophesy a little more because the last pope he mentions –he calls Peter the Roman & he referrs to him as a great pope that leads the Church through many tribulations. I would encourage you to spend a little less time in trying to figure out the future & a little more time praying & evangelizing.
  
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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 2:09pm
  @THERAPTURECOMES: P.S. Why there cannot be a pre-trib rapture: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first: Then we which are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. If this scripture is your defining of the rapture your referring to, it doesn’t happen until Christ second coming after the reign of the anti-christ who Jesus destroys with the brightness (Truth) of His coming. 2Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming!
  
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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 2:17pm
  THERAPTURECOMES
  
  Could you please explain why the Popes in the Prophesy are out of order?
  
  http://papam.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/to-the-st-malachy-prophecy-and-pope-peter-the-roman-proponents/
  
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- circleDwagons
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 3:55pm
  Mycomet123. Thank you.
  
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- snooop1e
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:06pm
  @THERAPTURECOMES – The invisible Rapture was introduced by John Nelson Darby around 1832. The fact that it was “introduced” means the teaching/belief was non-existent prior to 1832. I encourage you to research John Nelson Darby and ask yourself why a 2000 year gap has to be inserted into Daniels Prophecy in order for this man made doctrine to be plausible. Why do you trust an extra-biblical teaching that is utterly absent from any historic writings prior to 1832 and was publicly revealed after the last Apostle died? Scripture tells us that when Jesus comes again (one time not 2 or 3) that Jesus return will be announced with a loud cry and the sound of trumpet, doesn’t sound very stealthy or secret. A really good book is “Rapture Trap” I also used to believe in a secret Rapture then one day I learned that not all “Bible Alone” Christians accept this extra-biblical teaching and I decided to find out exactly who,where and when this teaching was introduced. Lastly, Noah and his family were the ones “Left Behind” those who were not obedient to God where the ones who were taken away. I have to admit that the idea of being singled out by God to be spared trials and tribulations is very appealing, it’s just not biblical. I encourage you to research the extra-biblical, non-scriptural teaching of the Rapture and see what you find. At the least you might want to research John Nelson Darby and his post Apostolic “vision”
  
  PAX CHRISTI
  
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Saff SGT
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:42am
next Pope maybe a Black Socialist, glad I’m not catholic, I am a free American with 2nd amendment rights and will remain so until death do me apart

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- sooner12
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:08am
  There is something definitely wrong with you.
  
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hillbillyinny
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:08am
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/pope_benedict_said_in_august_his_LDAZD6m9EO1s3RbvveeQ1J?utm_source=SFnewyorkpost&utm_medium=SFnewyorkpost

Excellent article which outlines what, “Journalist Peter Seewald recalled in an article for German weekly Focus published Saturday asking Benedict during a meeting last August at the pontiff’s summer residence, Castel Gandolfo, what more could be expected of him and his papacy.”

Addressed Benedict’s views on resignation and his abilities into the future.

2010 as the book by
2010 book, “Light of the World.

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TOPOFTHEGAME
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:06am
If the St Malachy vision is true??????, then the next Pope (and the LAST Pope ) name will be Peter THE ????. The first Pope since the Catholic church said, St Peter was there first Pope. The one that fits the bill in a NWO view is Cardinal Peter K. A. Turkson of Ghana. And extra bonus, he’s black.

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- mycomet123
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 1:24pm
  @TOPOFTHEGAME, According to St.Malachy, the 112 Pope he named was Peter the Roman. Which could be anyone, since the Pope is the bishop of Rome. Take it with a grain of salt, it’s kind of like the Mayan calendar!
  
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- circleDwagons
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 4:04pm
  Top. I am not catholic but the pope takes on a new name.
  
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sawbuck
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:27am
How does this work. Is there a retirement package for the Pope..?
Or does he get his old job back .?

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- RJJinGadsden
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:57am
  I’m not Catholic, so I can only relate what I have heard discussed in the news recently. From what I understand he will be allowed to lived out the rest of his life at The Vatican where he will be cared for as any other member in standing. Curiously to me, the destruction of his ring was discussed. As each Pope passes away his ring is destroyed. Apparently, they have not yet found records regarding this when it last happened over 600 years ago.
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:01am
  Walmart hired him as a greeter.
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:09am
  R,J, is right. The ring has to be taken to Mordor and tossed into Mount Doom or Sauron will use it to enslave Middle Earth.
  
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- The-Monk
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:52am
  Hi Gonzo,
  “Walmart hired him as a greeter.”
  
  Now that’s funny LOL !!!!!
  
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- Xanderson
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 2:00pm
  Darn it GONZO! I laughed so loud at the Sauron comment, that now I have to go to mass today at 5:00 instead of waiting until tomorrow morning :D Just kidding of course ( I really don’t want to encourage unnecessary Catholic guilt insults!)
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:50pm
  Doesn’t he get something like 72, 12 year old alter boys to pick up candles for him…?
  
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- Jake Dog2
  Posted on February 17, 2013 at 1:38am
  RJJ
  WOW good point. This has kind of thrown a curve to the Catholic church. It is now what do we do. I would like to see them open up the basment to see what is hidden there. Could be a major shock to the world I would bet. Bigger than Area 51.
  
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Dudley Do-Right
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:25am
I don’t believe in that phoney Malachy Prophesy. But the Worthy Prophesy has my attention.

“By about twelve years shall the millennium have passed when the resplendent mantle of legitimate power shall emerge from the shadows where it was being kept by the schism. And beyond harm from the one who is blocking the door of salvation, for his deceitful schism shall have come to an end. And the mass of the faithful shall attach itself to the worthy Shepherd, who shall extricate each one from error and restore to the Church its beauty. He shall renew it.”
Blessed Tomasuccio de Foligno

http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogsp…out-to-be.html

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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:32am
  hmmm…let’s try that again
  
  http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/is-worthy-shepherd-prophecy-about-to-be.html
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:33am
  Fix the link, I’d like to read that.
  
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- GBTVFan_Non_American_Overseas
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:34am
  What?…Revelations wasn’t intense enough for you?…you need something really spicy?
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:41am
  Muchos gracias.
  
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- sta
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:30am
  I’m the Catholic niece of a Bishop Emeritus.
  Any article that mentions Medjugorje should be disregarded immediately.
  The Bishop ruled nothing supernatural going on there. The “seers” and their handlers are disobeying their Shepherd.
  
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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:31am
  De Nada
  
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- Dudley Do-Right
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:54am
  Sta
  
  I agree that anything concerning these apparitions at Medjugorje should be ignored. However, the author of the post I linked isn’t linking Medjugorje with the Worthy Shepard Prophesy. Unless I’m reading it wrong, he’s simply mentioning the prophesy in a blog about Medjugorje. But then again, I’m usually wrong more than I’m right!
  
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GBTVFan_Non_American_Overseas
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:21am
Wow, the Pope must be really pushing his retirement….”Hey! Hurry up down there, I’m just ready to go!!!”….”No, no, no, don’t ask me that, from now on, I don’t know anything…you should wait for the new Pope and ask him!!”…”This is the last letter that I sign, so better hurry up with that thing!!!”…..

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LOJ
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:16am
Who will the next Papal be…will he be one filled with righteousness and Holiness, or someone who will rise from the Roman Empire to advance the agenda of the Anti-Christ and the One World Government?

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- hillbillyinny
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:42am
  @LOJ
  
  That’s always the question when a new leader on earth of the Church founded by Jesus Christ is chosen. . .maybe not the specifics of “one world government,” etc., but the question of good and evil.
  
  May the Holy Spirit guide these earthly servants of God to be true to the will of their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
  
  May people of God pray for the Will of God to be done!
  
  Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. AND REMEMBER I AM WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF TIME” Matthew 28:18-20 RSV-C (Emphasis mine)
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:54pm
  Perhaps both.
  
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The-Monk
Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:14am
If he wouldn’t wear all those heavy clothes all the time maybe he wouldn’t be so tired?

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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:24am
  You thinking sweat suit?
  
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- GBTVFan_Non_American_Overseas
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:29am
  Hi Monk,
  
  I think the main reason was the scandal of the Vatileaks. Since it was his personal Assistant, he must felt inconceivably betrayed. He realized he couldn’t trust in anybody around him, and after some years, he could be very sick, with Parkinson and in hands of some unscrupulous wolves….he knew he wasn’t able to handle that situation in such a chaotic era for the World and the Church….
  
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- The-Monk
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:35am
  Hi GBTVFan_Non_American_Overseas,
  
  I was just remembering what Gandhi said after leaving a court hearing.
  
  He was asked why he was only wearing a loincloth and he responded that the judge was wearing enough for both of them.
  
  He does look ill. I wonder what ever happened to his assistant?
  
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- The-Monk
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:37am
  Hi Gonzo,
  
  I’ve noticed you have been down in the dumps lately.
  
  Would you like some special Monk requests sent your way?
  
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- hillbillyinny
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:49am
  @ GBTVFAN
  
  Don’t know how old you or “the monk” are, but I am aging every year. And you know what? Each year I get a little more tired and a little more “frail,” and I start to identify just exactly what is REALLY important to me.
  
  I’ve been caring for hundreds of sheep for some time now, but I’m getting tired moving fencing everyday for grazing and pushing up feed in the winter for sheep to eat.
  
  It’s time for me to settle back in a smaller place, work my herding dogs on a small group of sheep, let those few lamb and supply food for my neighbors, and do the “work of the Lord” for the rest of my life, praying, writing and sharing my Faith.
  
  Kind of understand where the Holy Father is coming from. I like to think of him as moving into the position of Grand-Papa! Godly Grandfathers are wonderful men for we children to learn from. . .
  
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- hillbillyinny
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:52am
  @ the monk
  
  The Pope did not press charges on his assistant, and he forgave him to his face, shaking his hand!
  
  As Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this World. . . ” John 18:36
  
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- GBTVFan_Non_American_Overseas
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:59am
  Monk,
  
  Prison 1- ½ and paying the cost and expenses of the trial. His new nickname is “raven”.
  As for the clothes of the Pope, you made a very valid comment: Even if they use very light fabrics for those clothes, they wear several layers of different things, and they LOVE gold thread!
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 9:59am
  Sure Monk!
  
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- GBTVFan_Non_American_Overseas
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:14am
  HillBilly,
  
  You are right, and I wish you the best with your plans. I think pushing an old man to those limits, with such an enterprise over his old and tired shoulders, is much more a men’s thing than a God’s thing….Perspective: Moses had 1-2 million (I don´t remember how many) Israelis and loyal people surrounding him…the Pope has 1,3 billion Catholics, and devils surrounding him….and BTW I think Moses was way stronger than the Pope anyway :)
  
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- The-Monk
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:46am
  Hi Gonzo,
  
  You still in Ga?
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:26am
  Roger that Monk.
  
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- The-Monk
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 11:34am
  Hi Gonzo,
  
  I’ll start tonight after I get up. Going to bed shortly since I’m working a midnight shift.
  
  This job didn’t go to China but the hours are the same as there. LOL
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 16, 2013 at 10:04pm
  Isn’t calling the Pope the “Holy Father” blasphemy?
  
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