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Which 80 Prominent Republicans Just Signed a Legal Brief Proclaiming Gay Marriage Is a Constitutional Right?

Feb. 26, 2013 10:21am Billy Hallowell

This story has been updated.

As the gay marriage debate continues to heat up, prominent Republicans — and some surprising names at that — are emerging to voice their support for same-sex unions. Following a blistering loss in the 2012 presidential election, discussion about social issues, particularly gay rights, has emerged as a potentially-problematic area for right-of-center politicians. And in an era colored by increasing support for homosexual marriage, the pressure is mounting.

This week, more than 80 prominent Republicans, including top advisers to President George W. Bush, four former governors and two members of Congress signed a legal brief that proclaims gay people have the right to marry under the U.S. Constitution. The document will be submitted to the Supreme Court this week, where it is purportedly intended to add to the voices that will be heard during two upcoming gay rights cases, The New York Times reports.

80 Prominent Republicans Sign Legal Brief Proclaiming Gay Marriage Is a Constitutional Right | Supreme Court

Photo Credit: AP

Next month, the High Court will hear a battle over Proposition 8, California’s controversial law banning same-sex unions. Additionally, a separate case concerning the Defense of Marriage Act will be argued. The legal brief could have an impact on conservative justices who support traditional marriage, but who are also sympathetic to gay marriage arguments surrounding equal rights.

Many of the names on the document argue that legalizing same-sex unions advances conservative values by expanding personal freedom and supporting family structures. The Times has more about some of the surprising names who are accepting this view:

Among them are Meg Whitman, who supported Proposition 8 when she ran for California governor; Representatives Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida and Richard Hanna of New York; Stephen J. Hadley, a Bush national security adviser; Carlos Gutierrez, a commerce secretary to Mr. Bush; James B. Comey, a top Bush Justice Department official; David A. Stockman, President Ronald Reagan’s first budget director; and Deborah Pryce, a former member of the House Republican leadership from Ohio who is retired from Congress.

Ms. Pryce said Monday: “Like a lot of the country, my views have evolved on this from the first day I set foot in Congress. I think it’s just the right thing, and I think it’s on solid legal footing, too.”

Jon M. Huntsman Jr., the former Utah governor, who favored civil unions but opposed same-sex marriage during his 2012 presidential bid, also signed. Last week, Mr. Huntsman announced his new position in an article titled “Marriage Equality Is a Conservative Cause,” a sign that the 2016 Republican presidential candidates could be divided on the issue for the first time.

Photo Credit: AP

Here’s a portion of how Huntsman framed his new-found views on the matter:

Today we have an opportunity to do more: conservatives should start to lead again and push their states to join the nine others that allow all their citizens to marry. I’ve been married for 29 years. My marriage has been the greatest joy of my life. There is nothing conservative about denying other Americans the ability to forge that same relationship with the person they love.

All Americans should be treated equally by the law, whether they marry in a church, another religious institution, or a town hall. This does not mean that any religious group would be forced by the state to recognize relationships that run counter to their conscience. Civil equality is compatible with, and indeed promotes, freedom of conscience.

Last week, former First Lady Laura Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney and former Sec. of State Colin Powell made headlines after past interviews they gave on the subject of gay marriage were used in an ad for The Respect for Marriage Coalition, a group favoring same-sex nuptials. As of Monday, the Times reports that these individuals were not yet signed onto the brief (you can see more of the names who did sign on board here).

Interestingly, in making the argument that gay marriage should be legal and that Proposition 8 deserves to be overturned, past Supreme Court cases that are near and dear to conservatives’ hearts are cited. The Times claims that the document notes the Citizens United case, which focused upon campaign finance restrictions, and a Second Amendment case in which the Washington D.C. handgun ban was overturned.

Photo Credit: AP

This brief brings the stark divide within the Republican Party over gay marriage out into the open. With House of Representatives leadership continuing the tout the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act, which defines marriage as existing only between one man and one woman, it’s evident that the split is only growing.

With the American public increasingly becoming supportive of gay marriage, questions over how this dynamic will impact the Republican Party’s future are ongoing. Recent trends are certainly showcasing increased support for same-sex unions — and even homosexuality more generally.

LifeWay Research conducted a survey back in November — the results of which were released last month. The organization asked respondents, “Do you believe homosexual behavior is a sin?” Forty-five percent of the American public said that it is not, with 37 percent answering affirmatively, and an additional 17 percent saying that it did not know which side to select.

For better or for worse (and that depends on whom you’re talking to), it’s clear that the tides are turning.

UPDATE: The current list of Republicans, as presented by the American Foundation for Equal Rights, is below:

Ken Mehlman, Chairman, Republican National Committee, 2005-2007
Tim Adams, Undersecretary of the Treasury for International Affairs, 2005-2007
David D. Aufhauser, General Counsel, Department of Treasury, 2001-2003
Cliff S. Asness, Businessman, Philanthropist, and Author
John B. Bellinger III, Legal Adviser to the Department of State, 2005-2009
Katie Biber, General Counsel, Romney for President, 2007-2008 and 2011-2012
Mary Bono Mack, Member of Congress, 1998-2013
William A. Burck, Deputy Staff Secretary, Special Counsel and Deputy Counsel to the President, 2005-2009
Alex Castellanos, Republican Media Advisor
Paul Cellucci, Governor of Massachusetts, 1997-2001, and Ambassador to Canada, 2001-2005
Mary Cheney, Director of Vice Presidential Operations, Bush-Cheney 2004
Jim Cicconi, Assistant to the President & Deputy to the Chief of Staff, 1989-1990
James B. Comey, United States Deputy Attorney General, 2003-2005
R. Clarke Cooper, U.S. Alternative Representative, United Nations Security Council, 2007-2009
Julie Cram, Deputy Assistant to the President and Director White House Office of Public Liaison, 2007-2009
Michele Davis, Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs and Director of Policy Planning, Department of the Treasury, 2006-2009
Kenneth M. Duberstein, White House Chief of Staff and Assistant to the President, 1981-1984 and 1987-1989
Lew Eisenberg, Finance Chairman, Republican National Committee, 2002-2004
Elizabeth Noyer Feld, Public Affairs Specialist, White House Office of Management and Budget, 1984-1987
David Frum, Special Assistant to the President, 2001-2002
Richard Galen, Communications Director, Speaker’s Political Office, 1996-1997
Mark Gerson, Chairman, Gerson Lehrman Group and Author of The Neoconservative Vision: From the Cold War to the Culture Wars and In the Classroom: Dispatches from an Inner-City School that Works
Benjamin Ginsberg, General Counsel, Bush-Cheney 2000 & 2004
Adrian Gray, Director of Strategy, Republican National Committee, 2005-2007
Richard Grenell, Spokesman, U.S. Ambassadors to the United Nations, 2001-2008
Patrick Guerriero, Mayor, Melrose Massachusetts and member of Massachusetts House of Representatives, 1993-2001
Carlos Gutierrez, Secretary of Commerce, 2005-2009
Stephen Hadley, Assistant to the President and National Security Advisor, 2005-2009
Richard Hanna, Member of Congress, 2011-Present
Israel Hernandez, Assistant Secretary of Commerce for International Trade, 2005-2009
Margaret Hoover, Advisor to the Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security, 2005-2006
Michael Huffington, Member of Congress, 1993-1995
Jon Huntsman, Governor of Utah, 2005-2009
David A. Javdan, General Counsel, United States Small Business Administration, 2002-2006
Reuben Jeffery, Undersecretary of State for Economic, Energy, and Agricultural Affairs, 2007-2009
Greg Jenkins, Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Presidential Advance, 2003-2004
Coddy Johnson, National Field Director, Bush-Cheney 2004
Gary Johnson, Governor of New Mexico, 1995-2003
Robert Kabel, Special Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs, 1982-1985
Theodore W. Kassinger, Deputy Secretary of Commerce, 2004-2005
Jonathan Kislak, Deputy Undersecretary of Agriculture for Small Community and Rural Development, 1989-1991
David Kochel, Senior Advisor to Mitt Romney’s Iowa Campaign, 2007-2008 and 2011-2012
James Kolbe, Member of Congress, 1985-2007
Jeffrey Kupfer, Acting Deputy Secretary of Energy, 2008-2009
Kathryn Lehman, Chief of Staff, House Republican Conference, 2003-2005
Daniel Loeb, Businessman and Philanthropist
Alex Lundry, Director of Data Science, Romney for President, 2012
Greg Mankiw, Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers, 2003-2005
Catherine Martin, Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy Communications Director for Policy & Planning, 2005-2007
Kevin Martin, Chairman, Federal Communications Commission, 2005-2009
David McCormick, Undersecretary of the Treasury for International Affairs, 2007-2009
Mark McKinnon, Republican Media Advisor
Bruce P. Mehlman, Assistant Secretary of Commerce, 2001-2003
Connie Morella, Member of Congress, 1987-2003 and U.S. Ambassador to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, 2003-2007
Michael E. Murphy, Republican Political Consultant
Michael Napolitano, White House Office of Political Affairs, 2001-2003
Ana Navarro, National Hispanic Co-Chair for Senator John McCain’s Presidential Campaign, 2008
Noam Neusner, Special Assistant to the President for Economic Speechwriting, 2002-2005
Nancy Pfotenhauer, Economist, Presidential Transition Team, 1988 and President’s Council on Competitiveness, 1990
J. Stanley Pottinger, Assistant U.S. Attorney General (Civil Rights Division), 1973-1977
Michael Powell, Chairman, Federal Communications Commission, 2001-2005
Deborah Pryce, Member of Congress, 1993-2009
John Reagan, New Hampshire State Senator, 2012-Present
Kelley Robertson, Chief of Staff, Republican National Committee, 2005-2007
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Member of Congress, 1989-Present
Harvey S. Rosen, Member and Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers, 2003-2005
Lee Rudofsky, Deputy General Counsel, Romney for President, 2012
Patrick Ruffini, eCampaign Director, Republican National Committee, 2005-2007
Steve Schmidt, Deputy Assistant to the President and Counselor to the Vice President, 2004-2006
Ken Spain, Communications Director, National Republican Congressional Committee, 2009-2010
Robert Steel, Undersecretary of the Treasury for Domestic Finance, 2006-2008
David Stockman, Director, Office of Management and Budget, 1981-1985
Jane Swift, Governor of Massachusetts, 2001-2003
Michael E. Toner, Chairman and Commissioner, Federal Election Commission, 2002-2007
Michael Turk, eCampaign Director for Bush-Cheney 2004
Mark Wallace, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Representative for UN Management and Reform, 2006-2008
Nicolle Wallace, Assistant to the President and White House Communications Director, 2005-2008
William F. Weld, Governor of Massachusetts, 1991-1997, and Assistant U.S. Attorney General (Criminal Division), 1986-1988
Christine Todd Whitman, Governor of New Jersey, 1994-2001, and Administrator of the EPA, 2001-2003
Meg Whitman, Republican Nominee for Governor of California, 2010
Robert Wickers, Republican Political Consultant
Dan Zwonitzer, Wyoming State Representative, 2005-present

(H/T: New York Times)

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Comments (597)

justangry
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:52am
Well maybe they’ll stop prancing around and help us get our right to a trial back now?

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- Fubared
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:43pm
  Hell no. This is a hot bottom/button issue that will only ensure more special interest prancing.
  
  Report this comment
lisalake
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:52am
Once again and always usurping the will of the People. Evil is winning. There will never be another republican that gets my vote.

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- Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:14am
  Have fun voting for Democrats, Socialists, Communists, and Greens. Libertarians are generally pro-marriage freedom.
  
  Report this comment
- Max jones
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:28am
  Lisa, you’re a believer. so keep on keepin’ on.
  Mankind was set on a certain course, 6 thousand years ago. This is more visible, now, than ever before.
  Satan’s deception, his pride and arrogance, and his hatred of God, the Father, and all things wholesome and holy, have been manifested in these times. In spades. He is called,the son of perdition, condemned to die…..believing himself to be immortal. he exalts himself above all that is called God. He will stand in Jerusalem. claiming the throne of Christ unto himself…….
  You can witness his spirit and self centered intentions in his human minions. They are exposing themselves…in droves, to curry favor with the coming world government. A theocracy, based on the ‘Lie’ of Satan’s supremacy.
  2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
  2 Thessalonians 2:9 (KJV) , whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  2 Thessalonians 2:11 (KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  
  Keep the watchers working for we have the Lord:
  Revelation 3:10 (KJV) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:39am
  Max…what course were Neanderthals set on 600,000? Is there a book written by god on those peeps? Just curious…
  
  Report this comment
- Smokey_Bojangles
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:48am
  Democrats, Socialists, Communists, and Greens are pretty much cut from the same cloth,Lesbian. I watched the 3rd party debate and Jill Stein sounded the same as Obama did in the late 90′s.
  I do not want Government telling me what to eat,what kind of Ammo to buy,who to sleep with,how many sodas I can drink Etc..Why would I want them to have the power to tell someone else what to do?
  
  Report this comment
- Walkabout
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:42pm
  Doors,
  
  The Neanderthals are covered. It is just above your paygrade to understand.
  
  Report this comment
- Granny58
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 5:43am
  there’s always the Constitutional Party
  
  Report this comment
hawkguy
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:52am
Four of these people were elected officials. The rest held jobs in the Republican Party or under elected Republicans. The big question is: Can we hire based on a marriage litmus test? Can it be asked during the interview? I don’t have any problem with the litmus test. But to have it will require a judgement in court to support it. Is there one at this time?

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- KalanVA
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:38pm
  Any government involvement in marriage violates the separation of church and state because marriage is a set of religious ceremonies and regulations. The government should have NO connection with marriages of any kind.
  
  Report this comment
hslusher
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:49am
And the difference between dems and Repubs is what? looks like we need a conservative party

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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:55am
  yup
  
  Report this comment
- WTFurnuts
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:14am
  Agreed.
  
  Report this comment
- love the kids
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:09pm
  This is the problem, the Dems figured out a while ago that if they just forget about morals and take anybody, they will get more votes. So now Rebublicans are afraid of losing again, so they will do anything, even wrong to get the same votes, but when folks want to go back to marality in a few years, it won’t even be available. America has been transformed people. Do whatever you want except be successful, elected officials hate that, they need loosers
  
  Report this comment
- Gonzo
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 3:24pm
  It certainly appears that they have thrown in the towel on this one. All it took was 15 years of pop culture glamorizing homosexuality.
  
  Report this comment
The Big Mick
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:49am
Cron.
I’d say the REAL problem is that the INTENT of Same Sex Marriage has NOTHING to do with ANY “rights’ or “equality” or “family” or “love” or anything like that.
Same Sex Marriage has One and Only One Objective. That is to USE the Imprimatur and Power of THE STATE to SILENCE anyone who DARES call Homosex “perversion.”
It is TYRANNY at its most Basic and Base. Nothing else.

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- Max jones
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:44am
  Very Good grasshopper. And this is the way it is done.
  Soon the preaching of the Gospel, in it’s complete truth will be called “hate speech”..
  
  “For this cause will God send upon them a great delusion, that they should believe a lie….”
  The ’cause’ is to get the left exposed for what they are; murderous anti-Christians.
  Somehow, these people are going to get organized, and really start to believe the great evils in their undisciplined lives, are actually caused by Christians…..like homosexuality would magically not be deviant if Christian people would not point out that God, himself, called it an abomination….or that abortion would not be murder if Christians would not maintain conception as the start of human beings. I did not say these people are deluded, God does, and takes responsibility for it.
  There was no written law, when Cain slew Abel, but the Lord called it murder, nonetheless. Cain ‘spiritually’ knew it was wrong. Ecclesiastes teaches us that there is nothing new under the sun. Human nature and the nature of God have NOT changed. Not one jot.
  There is NO reason to fear….The Will of God, IS being done. These people have got to feel secure in their rebellion, to boldly exalt themselves, and expose themselves to HIS judgement. The Lord is fair, and wants all his children back with him. The bad ones must have a chance to change their hearts, and even a Kenite can find salvation in Christ.
  Put on the Gospel armor,
  
  Report this comment
- kadster01
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:13pm
  Bingo, Mick. What is the end goal?
  
  There is one, btw.
  
  Report this comment
- Walkabout
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 6:49pm
  Doors,
  
  Disease is just one of a litany of arguments.
  
  As far as lesbians the 1st I met was nit a lesbian because of genetics but because of abuse. She was a f_ck buddy. Guys would ask her out on a date. She would cave. They would notch their belt and presto chango she was no longer their buddy. I guess some guys cannot wait another year or two. They got to get on the scoreboard.
  
  So is it genetic or psychological. My take is that the lesbian I knew became lesbian because she was used. And the hurt went deeper than that.
  
  Report this comment
vaman
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:47am
. Wow! The evangelical god crowd must in overdrive prayer mode right now. Gay marriage as a standard for the country is one step closer. 75 republicans have decide on equal rights, turned away from the religious nonsense and have chosen real American freedom.

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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:54am
  Naw V,
  it’s about Silencing anybody who dares call a Perv a Perv.
  
  Report this comment
- FLOWNOVERandFORGOTTEN
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:00am
  I could care less if gays get married. Knock yourselves out.
  However, I will care deeply when my church is forced to perform the ceremonies and go against its historical doctrine by the tyrannical fist of this administration.
  I can and will tolerate gay marriage but I doubt that they will ever tolerate my beliefs.
  Stay out of my church and I will stay out of yours.
  
  Report this comment
- WTFurnuts
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:17am
  Yeah, because having a 1 in 5 chance of contracting aids is much cooler than acknowledging your creator.
  Dying 8-20 years earlier than your peers is more fun than believing some dusty old book.
  
  You’re so brilliant.
  
  Report this comment
- henryKnox
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:20am
  I think the gov’t needs to get out of the bedroom and exit the marriage business completely. End the discriminatory checkboxes on gov’t forms for Married/Single and treat everyone the same. Let marriage be a private choice of commitment.
  
  Report this comment
- SquidVetOhio
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:21am
  Hey Captain Fabulous, I don’t know what the “evangelical god” is. I worship the ALPHA and OMEGA, the I AM THAT I AM, the Living God, the Rose of Sharon, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Consuming Fire. In other words, I worship the God of the Universe who, by the way, is your Judge and Creator. Keep it up laughing boy. You WILL bow to Him and confess out of your mouth that He is the Lord.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:25am
  @WTFURNUTS
  
  You’re basing your arguments on disease…since Lesbians have a lower rate than heterosexuals for sexual diseases…you cool with that?
  
  Report this comment
- kywillie
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:50am
  Hey squid, does a god with that many names have an ego problem? Hes like Apollo Creed in Rocky, and we all know how he turned out, killed by a Russian. Also could you ask your fire god why did he make people gay if he hates them so much?
  
  Report this comment
- TEIN
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:54am
  @Vamen…This issue has nothing, zero, zilch, to do with “equal rights”!!! Has everything to do with redefinition and destruction of marriage… Do some critical analyzing…homosexual couple can get married now!!! Does not mean state law recolonizes that marriage, because marriage is not a right!!!! This is about redefining marriage, just how “sexual orientation” redefines homosexuality, and how family has been redefine to be something other than the family unit of Father, mother, and optional children!!! If in your open minded world you can understand that the family unit of man and woman joined together is the building block of society, then guess what redefining does to the building block??? Once society can not stand under the redefinitions and collapse then go and do some research and find who will step into tell you how you will live?? This is another way of making what was once common among he USA citizens a division by making the definition having an uncommon meaning!!!!
  
  Report this comment
Longing for Change
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:45am
The Communist Manifesto:

40) Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

So Marriage is now between Adam and Steve, Or Adele and Eve.

Read the list.

It is almost complete now.

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/01/list-of-45-something-you-should.html

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- Thighmaster
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:54am
  So you’re saying steve took a bone (rib) from adam ?
  
  Report this comment
- The-Monk
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:05am
  Hi Longing for Change,
  
  When I read the headline the Commie Manifesto was my first thought.
  
  Report this comment
- Longing for Change
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:11am
  It is a merely the stance of the LBGT crowd. It is kind of like the reverse bullying of the anti gay statements commercial ( click link)
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0l2z-K5OzA
  
  It is OK for the LBGT crowd to bully me by telling me to “Knock it off!!!!”. But I can not tell them to “Knock it off” when it comes to how I define marriage .
  
  Report this comment
- Walkabout
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:57pm
  Monk,
  
  In regards to #40, the ex Soviets & others are go to suffer from the blowback. The poison encouraged by the Soviets did not sink in fast enough. As such it infects them as well. Russia will have its’ hands full dealing with Muslims in the Caucasus region & Kazan. Will they have the energy to suppress the Muslims and the LGBT?
  
  Report this comment
- Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 8:15pm
  That’s not from the Communist Manifesto, which was written by Marx and Engels and explains what Communists actually believe. It’s from a book written by some right wing crank back in the 1950’s who just made a list of every social trend he was against and claimed that Communists were for behind them.
  
  Report this comment
Cavallo
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:45am
They don’t want a right to marry, and be recognized by the government. They want to use government to force the rest by gun point to accept them.

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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:50am
  Precisely, Cav.
  
  Report this comment
- EgoLacuna
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:18am
  Let me get this right, so two women in their 40s who have been together for 15 years, living a quiet life in Boulder, CO…they don’t actually want to get married…instead, they just want to be able to suppress your right to say whatever you want about people you don’t know. That’s what you are saying, right? What a perfect combination of narcissism, ignorance, and bigotry. Mick and Cav, I think you two would make a great couple.
  
  Report this comment
- Vision Harry
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:37am
  Egolacuna, Two carpet munchers living in sin for 15 years is the phrase you were looking for.
  
  Wrong is wrong, even if everyone else is doing it.
  Right is right, even if no one is doing it.
  
  Report this comment
momrules
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:44am
With their new definition of Conservative I will no longer call myself by that name.

I am a child of God and a Christian. I have principles and will stand by them regardless of those who can and do evolve which ever way is expedient.

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- NotBigBooteeitsBigButtay
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:54am
  Thank you Mom.
  
  Your courage and conviction are an inspiration.
  One cannot ask more of another.
  
  Report this comment
- john vincent
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:06pm
  mom-
  
  agreed- and it doesnt stop here. On the docket is the desire for a newly enlightened society to have the first ‘gay and married president………………….’ Imagine Pres. Dave and his ‘first’ man Larry!!!!
  Imagine the first ‘kiss’ the first ‘dance’ -ugh.
  
  God may have to apologize to Sodom for the acts of America today.
  
  Report this comment
- Small World
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:59pm
  I refuse to evolve!
  
  Report this comment
The_Doors_Of_Perception
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:44am
This is a small step in the right direction. Makes me happy!! Being fiscally conservative myself, I would love people who are sane and fiscally responsible running the economy again.

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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:52am
  Not for me Dorie.
  Being Prhomo is a deal breaker for any candidate after my vote.
  But if the GOP thinks they’ll get more votes from Que Ears and La Raza Reconquistas than Christians let em go for it.
  I’m voting The Big Mick Pledge or “none of the above.”
  
  Report this comment
- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:00am
  The Big Mick Pledge For Candidates*: To be taken In Writing and In Public with no omissions or equivocations.
  
  1. WIN the War for Survival against Islamic Jihadism on all fronts.
  
  2. DEFEND our Southern Border against La Raza’s Reconquista Invasion. (BUILD the WALL! SEAL the Border. PROSECUTE Illegal EMPLOYERS. NO AMNESTY.)
  
  3. RESTORE Constitutionalism by appointing ONLY Strict Constructionist Originalist Judges from a consensus list of the Top Ten Most Originalist Strict Constructionists.
  
  4. REDUCE the size of the Fed.Gov. 3% in Real, Absolute, terms, not mere slowed growth, every year of their administration. Or, alternatively, eliminate three entire Federal Departments every year of their administration, or reduce the Federal Work Force 3% every Year.
  CUT Taxes across the board permanently. Repeal ObamaCare.
  Radically Reduce All Foreign Aid and Redirect it ONLY to Battle Proven Allies.
  
  5. SECURE our Energy INDEPENDENCE by FULL an COMPLETE MAXIMUM exploitation of ALL our Domestic Energy Sources. Build, Drill, Dig.
  SECURE our Borders, Culture, Language.
  SECURE my Sacred Franchise by a fraud proof, iron clad system of Voter Registration, ID, balloting, and counting.
  
  WIN DEFEND RESTORE REDUCE SECURE
  
  *Big Mick Pledge v2.3 with emendations by Tinslder and Tarua.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:17am
  Well at least you are ready to be irrelevant. You are the reason Obama has 8 years to drastically change our economic model and economic freedom….keep saying women can prevent birth in rape situations, Homosexuality is a depravity because an old book says so, elvis is still alive, the earth is 6000 yrs old, and you will pay a public price. As you should…
  
  Report this comment
- pmjme
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:09pm
  Where is your tolerance for people who hold a different opinion than you @doors? All I see is name calling, intolerance, and derission in every post. Bigotry on display.
  
  It is laughable that there is a whole faction of people who believe this is such a cutting edge social issue. That no other civilizations throughout history have ever come upon this issue. Talk about flat earth society thinking.
  
  I would agree it is a downer how societies just keep repeating the same social crises over and over for thousands of years ad infinitum and therer is no actual (socially based) innovatiion. Could be an argument for why a 2000 year old book is still relevant. Societies and social issues haven’t really changed one bit throughout history. We are simply doomed to perpetual repetition.
  
  Report this comment
- kujo55
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 3:37pm
  Sound like you need to take your perception to another country. sad to see our country going down such a reckless path. To your other evolution comments (in other posts) good luck proving that, but you keep trying and presenting it as fact and you’ll get some morons to follow you down the broad path.
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 3:57pm
  Hahaha…yeah I have to try and prove evolution and “might” get some morons to follow it….hahaha…yeah i will leave that up to every scientist in THE WORLD!!!!
  
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- The_Cabrito_Goat
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:05pm
  http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLibertine&ei=iyMtUcDuMYaGrAGlk4HgAQ&usg=AFQjCNEf3nJctGlm6u58x0duyM8uU_vDWQ&sig2=RRAAxJJlWgRDMXVax7-UgQ&bvm=bv.42965579,d.aWM
  
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- Stone Cold Truth
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 7:02pm
  I don’t know about you guys but I’d rather lose every election than have people like perception running the agenda. All these phonies trying to push the Party to the center left can kiss my rear end. Adopting these liberal mish mash social positions is not going to win us any more votes, rather it will cost votes. You cannot out democrat the democrats. Why don’t you people join the Dems and try to change them into what you want instead of trying to change us all the time? Posers.
  
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Thighmaster
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:44am
When a politician says their “views have evolved” it translates to “I can get more votes and stay in office this way”….

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NotBigBooteeitsBigButtay
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:43am
Either homosexuality is a genetic defect. In which we should be seeking a cure.

Or it is a choice. Which is a sign of an emotional disorder.

There is no option #3.

Accepting disorders and publicly advocating to not fund any research for genetic defects is sad.

As always, the clear and rational solution is to look in the Constitution and find whether marriage is a right given by government or not.

A quick check seems to confirm it’s none of government’s business to legislate marriage at all.

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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:53am
  “There is no option #3.”
  
  Sure there is. It could be due to chemical conditions in utero; an excessive amount of testosterone or estrogen. This is in fact very likely; women who birth multiple sons are more likely to have a gay son after three or more are born, thought due to a build-up of estrogen after so many births.
  
  It could also be a combination of factors.
  
  Be careful when you limit yourself to either-or parameters; the world is very seldom in shades of black or white.
  
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- NotBigBooteeitsBigButtay
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:03am
  Locked.
  
  Thank you for expanding on the possible biological factors other than genetic.
  I should have simply said biologic defects or emotional and left it at that.
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:08am
  Either way something must go wrong in order for homosexuality to exist. It is impossible to be good, because you cannot point to a creator for its origin… you have to point to corruption.
  
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- NotBigBooteeitsBigButtay
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:16am
  The biggest concern for the evolution believers is that if homosexuality is genetic, it is in the best interest of all human civilization to find a cure.
  
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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:17am
  Locked, the operative word there is “thought”.
  I’ve also seen the report on Homos born in Germany at the end of WW2 when the moms were under stress big time. Post mortems showed the Brain Hemisphere barrier more like a female than male.
  Problem is, is that a CAUSE or an EFFECT?
  At bottom ALL evidence of “I’m hom mo, and this is when I knew I was” rests on ANECDOTAL Evidence. Based on my experience in the Parents with Autistic Children Community, Anecdotal Evidence is USUALLY not rated as RELIABLE by the Scientific and Medical Communities.
  And yet it is taken as GOSPEL out of the Mouths of Prhomos.
  I’m all in favor of researching causes, but until you have a DIRECT proven Link to CAUSE–a “que ear gene” or equivalent, I’m skeptical of the claim of “born orientation”. For one thing the inclusion of “Bi” in the Spectrum undercuts the premise.
  I’ll buy Brain Chemistry and Genetic with an Environmental Trigger, because that is the current thinking of my son’s Autism Specialist at UVA Kluge Center in terms of a cause for Autism.
  But I require hard data, not anecdotes.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:17am
  @Notbigboot
  
  “Thank you for expanding on the possible biological factors other than genetic.
  I should have simply said biologic defects or emotional and left it at that.”
  
  True; I wasn’t trying to be antagonistic. It’s simply that “genetics!” doesn’t account for the complete biology or psychology of a person. Environmental factors at all stages of development and life play a significant role. I see a lot of other posters stating “genetics!” like it’s the end-all, be-all.
  
  I agree with your second point on the role of government in the marriage business – frankly, there is not one in my view. I can see why it became an issue due to tax and inheritance issues, but the power over regulation should be added via constitutional amendment, not through legislation.
  
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- TEIN
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:12pm
  @Not…Homosexuality are acts not states of being or orientation….there are only sex acts…when the acts are done with same sex that constitutes homosexual acts or homosexuality….the definition has been changed to meet a progressive/liberal agenda..there is no “Gay” person…
  
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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:45pm
  @Tein
  
  “Homosexuality are acts not states of being or orientation….there are only sex acts…”
  
  Completely false; you in fact have it reversed. Homosexuality (and heterosexuality) is a sexual orientation – which sex you find sexually attractive. They do not require action at all.
  
  A virgin is not necessarily “asexual.” They still have a sexual orientation and feelings of attraction – they simply haven’t acted upon them. We call that “abstinence.” Likewise, we’ve seen plenty of example of politicians who have gotten into heterosexual relationships, only to be caught later in homosexual encounters. Why? Because they are homosexual or bisexual – they are attracted to the opposite (or both) sexes.
  
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encinom
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:41am
God doesn’t write American law, his opinion doesn’t count. The Constitution, not the bible, dictates laws and the Constitution demands equal protection.
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- zorro
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:26pm
  NOBODY is able to marry the same sex. What is not equal about that?
  
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- Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 6:14pm
  The difference between being able to marry somebody you can love and desire as they deserve and only being able to marry somebody you aren’t attracted to which would ruin both of your lives, that’s what’s not equal.
  
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- KalanVA
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:40pm
  AMEN! Government involvement in marriage violates the separation of church and state because marriage is a set of religious ceremonies and regulations.
  
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- Uechi
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 3:58pm
  Suggest you look up separation of church and state. The 1st Amendment does not separate church from state ( the majority of if not all the founders believed in God and the Judeo Christian ethic). ” Congress will make no laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” The first part of the amendment’s purpose was to prevent the establishment of a Government/national religion and to prevent people from not being allowed to worship as they wished. As you know or should know Engalnd had a state religion and many fled because they were persecuted namely Pilgrim etc.
  The so called separation of church and state is an invention of the left.If you are going to make an argument get your facts straight!
  
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- KalanVA
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 8:22pm
  A marriage license should be given through the church not the government
  
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- Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 9:57pm
  No. Religion does not own the idea of marriage or the word. People have always gotten married. People will always get married. It’s not just about the same sex couples. Millions of couples in this country have gotten married in civil ceremonies without having to ask some church for its permission, and their marriages are just as real as yours. It’s been like that since a century before we were even born, and nobody ever seemed to have any problem with it until just a few years ago when we started to consider extending the same opportunity to same sex couples.
  
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- GCT
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:10pm
  His opinions don’t count?
  
  Do you think it is a coincidence that Katrina hit right after the USA forced Israel to “give up land for peace”? Have you noticed how peaceful Gaza has been since then?
  
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- Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 8:07pm
  Yes, I consider that a coincidence. All sane people consider that a coincidence.
  
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starman70
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:40am
Apparently none of these “Republicans” can read the Bible. GOD instituted marriage between a man and a woman for companionship and for the propagation of the human race. GOD didn’t create ADAM & STEVE, HE CREATED ADAM & EVE.

There should be no compunctions about enacting civil unions, with all the legal rights that are enjoyed by the union of a man and a woman, for those so inclined BUT the word marriage should be reserved for the traditional bond of a man and a woman.

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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:46am
  My Bible says that divorce is almost always against the will of God (the sole exception being in the case of adultery), and remarriage is always against His will. Yet we still call remarried couples “married,” do we not? And my Bible also says that marriage is an agreement in the eyes of God; a spiritual contract made by Christians. However, I know plenty of non-Christians who are married, and others who have had completely non-religious weddings. Yet we call them married too, right?
  
  At some point you should have realized that “marriage” as the US government refers to it is not “marriage” as the Bible refers to it. They are very different concepts.
  
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- NotBigBooteeitsBigButtay
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:48am
  While agreeing completely that marriage is a religious affair, I’ll take it one step backward.
  
  Since I see no justification whatsoever for the government to legislate/regulate marriage in the first place, I will concede that any individuals who wish to have a contractual arrangement filed in the public record, should be free to do so. If the contract says that Adam shall act as Steve’s beneficiary or Attorney-in-fact or whatever – I have no reason to want to deny that.
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:50am
  Thank god we don’t want our politicans taking commands from a 2000 year old barbaric book written by bronze age barbaric people…we clearly don’t want them making laws in this vein that affect peoples lives right?
  
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- Fubared
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:31pm
  The Doors
  Do you reference current day Paleostine? Why no emotion and vitriol on any currents events effecting 100% of “Americans”, and all this hooey over 5% special interest group? We have gay teachers, gay preachers, gay elected officials, and LGBLT in every facet of today’s world and life. Without getting all Dan Savage, what is the big fricken deal? Be gay in your gayness and prosper. Gay men can now conceive and lesbians can procreate without a turkey baster? What is the special message? When will we hear from the rainbow coalition inside of CAIR? That would truly be special sauce special.
  
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todd147
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:39am
A child knows what marriage is. It’s amazing that people that rise to the level these guy’s did, don’t know the difference. I actually feel bad for the gay’s. Now, not only anti-gay marriage libs use them as propaganda, but now you got so called conservatives doing the same thing. Just trying to buy favor. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of there sexual immorality. He destroyed the city because of the public condoning of it. Watch out America. We are imploding.

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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:46am
  yeah a closer reading of the text reveals that a kind of “State Sponsored Perversion” was at the core in a way that even Trashed the Ancient Laws of Hospitality.
  In other words, the ENTIRE CULTURE was So Far Gone that NO other Value HAD Value but Gratification of and Identification With their Perversion.
  Sound Familiar?
  
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- GrammaHoney
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:58pm
  I would love to stand up at work and yell from the top of my lungs,” Keep your sexuality to yourself at work.” I don’t know of any heterosexual who comes to work and annouces that they are not gay. Yet the gays have to swish their butts, swing their hands in the air and cry. Make a scene so that we all know how hard it is for them to just sleep with men and be accepted. They can call foul in a heartbeat if felt not accepted, but the public cannot speak out without fear of retribution.
  
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The Big Mick
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:38am
I don’t call it the “Robber Baron, Rocky Feeler, Gilt Bird Cabin, Conservative Free GeeOhPea” for nothin.
I’ve bailed on the Phromo GOP (pronouced “Gawp” rhymes with “mop”) years ago.

One of my questions about Glenn’s “Big Tent” is whether the LiberTineAryan wing of the Paulists will have MY back when the Prhomos start using the Power of the State to Shut Me UP when I say “God ain’t down wid que eardom.”

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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:57pm
  Bippity bob, didpitty dop..yabba dabba doo. Being a LiberTineAryan(lol, freaking weirdo)…I definitely don’t want you to shut up…I definitely don’t want the state to shut you up. I wan’t you to say what you believe all the time and really loud…but I’m going to laugh at you all the time and really loud. One of the best way to change peoples minds is to let them hear the crazies…
  
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- Stone Cold Truth
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 7:26pm
  Here’s door’s arguement: Everbody young is cool with it so it’s hip and therefore good and anyone who disagrees with it is crazy, hateful, or religiously delusional.
  
  You are more intolerant yourself than you might think. A vast majority of us out here actually do vaule the Bible. That leaves WAAYYYYY more people who feel slighted from your activism than the other way around. Why is it ok to discriminate against them, you heartless thing? Do only the wishes of a tiny number of gay people matter? It is your people who are trying to FORCE federal action, not us. If equality is all you want then why won’t you just compromise and give up the word marriage? Call it something else because it is something else. It may be similar, but not the same thing. Then everybodies happy. It’s not like gay people aren’t allowed to have weddings and openly live together already, so all this is about is legal status. You get your status and Christians get to keep their sacred word. I’d bet, however, that you and the rest of your ilk would reject such a compromise because you want to FORCE your demands on the majority.
  
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jungle J
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:37am
The infection of mental illness is spreading at a high rate…guard your mind from nonsense and religious fanatics. For anyone to see homosexuality as normal must be abnormal at best.Oh, I forgot normal is no longer a word. Solly.

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- HOOT_OWL
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:46am
  Jungle J … Right on …!!!
  
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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:08am
  Statistically speaking, “normal” refers to a range, arrayed in a bell-shaped curve. You have a small percentage of extremes on either end. Homosexuality falls within the range of “normal”, always has, always will.
  
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- chjaka
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 2:25pm
  @Jungle:You make the obvious statement and then are rebutted by someone calling themselves ‘calm voice of reason’ who assures us that using an organ intricately made to interact with the also specifically designed female organ, that using that organ with a dog, cat, donkey, sewer pipe, other man’s fecal organ, etc……. IS NORMAL!!!!!! LOL !
  Yes your original statement on mental illness is confirmed.
  
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Cronpolis
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:37am
It’s not the Union of two people that is really the problem. The problem is that it destroys the family and health of society overall.

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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:20am
  Evidence?
  
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- pissantno.10
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:42pm
  calm open your freaking eys and look around you if that does not work for you commit sooooy cide.cuse you are beyound hope
  
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Smokey_Bojangles
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:37am
I Don’t go for all that gay stuff,but I have enough of my own sins to answer for. They can answer for their own.
What I want to know is,who thinks the Defense of Marriage Act is constitutional?Anyone here have a Federal Marriage license?
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:58am
  smoke I’d be cool with The People’s Republic of Massachewtits going all Queerafied, as LONG as I have the RIGHT in MY State to say “Go to He ll Phahgs!”
  It’s the “Equal Protection” Fed Crap that worries me. The Demand that what Commiequeer States do be AFFIRMED by the REST of us.
  Long as I can have States Rights that allow me in my State to say “burn in H ell Que Ears” I’m cool.
  
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- Smokey_Bojangles
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:37am
  Well,it kind of falls in with Community standards. Baptistville Mississippi may have an ordinance against Adult Book Shops,Drinking,Dancing,and strip clubs,but it can be seen by New Yorkers as being against the Constitution’s 1st Amendment. But if you are a stickler for the Constitution,Only Congress shall make no law Etc. Doesn’t say anything about City Councils etc. Even The Third even has an option of “but in a manner to be prescribed by law.”
  The most violated rights are the 2nd,4th,and 5th. States nor Local Governments can violate those,but be a black man in New york,Buy a gun,and Walk down the Street. All 3 of those rights would be violated before you walked a block.
  Just the other Sunday,in the Sunny South, I had the 4th and 5th violated at a Police Revenue Road Block. The police Stopped us without just cause.Asked my Wife For ID.I told them I did not have one.I didn’t.Wallet was a home and no law says you have to have one.Asked us where we were coming from and where we were going. So I Just kept asking,”Are we being detained?” as my wife panicked and kept elbowing me.haha.
  They eventually let us go.
  So,The Constitution is only what you want to read in it.Just like The Bible. One side said Jesus loved Everybody…But he did not have a sit in,smoke pot,and sing “Kumbaya” to get the money changers out of the Temple. He THREW them out.
  
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IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:37am
God chose Adam and Eve. “God gives His best to those who leave the choice with Him” Prov 16-9

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- Jadedfate
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 12:45am
  And Ash chose Pikachu…all are equally real.
  
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One Man Mormon Blues Band
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:31am
Marriage was created to protect children and the family. Not to appease sexual appetites, personal attractions or emotional needs. Since we no longer protect the unborn, have turned sexual relations into entertainment, and determined that families are not necessary to a stable society, why not?

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- Jenny Lind
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:42pm
  I hear you, but there is nothing here that hasn’t been foretold would happen, and it makes me sad to realize that the Soviet Union gets how bad it is for a society better than this great country. Even those of us who try to be as close to our God as we can, know that nothing will stop what is coming. I read what the anti religion, anything goes group that come here say and I know they do not understand that the condemnation this country will face is the disbelief, and thinking, to say man knows better than our Creator what is right and wrong. Well, I say pass all the laws the foolish want who are swayed by the great Evil of the world, as for me, I will stick to the laws of God and pray for this country with all my heart and might. As for the nit-pickers who quote old jewish law to compare to pure evil, I am glad I am not them. It will not end well for evil, sorry for them.
  
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wilbstal
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:28am
God says no and you all should obey or pay the piper when you blink out, hehehe

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- encinom
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:43am
  God is not a citizen, nor does he have a say in drafting American law. Gos’s opinion is equal to the opinon of a stray cat with regards to how the Constitution is read.
  
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- IMCHRISTIAN
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:35am
  Enc…..Oh,you have so much to learn before your final days. “We find freedom when we find God; we lose it when we lose Him” Have a good day and I will say a prayer for you.
  
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- Fubared
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:41pm
  Encidiot is not a citizen. Listening to it spew is like making a soup sammich. It don’t work. Marry your gerbil and be done with it.
  
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dmforman
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:26am
I personally have nothing wrong with gay marriage, but marriage between a man and woman is not a right, so why should marriage between the same gender? We have lost site of what a right is, and it’s ruining our country.

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- ITGuy
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:35am
  Marriage between a man and a woman is a God given right. Marriage is a religeous institution created by God. The government only got involved in it to make money and now they dictate the rules. They should have no say whatsoever.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:36am
  @Dmforman
  
  ” but marriage between a man and woman is not a right”
  
  According to the Supreme Court it is. Loving v. Virginia would be the most famous example of marriage being a right but it’s neither the first case enumerating marriage as a right, nor the most recent.
  
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- Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 6:41pm
  Equal protection of the law is a right, so same sex couples have a right to the same treatment as straight couples. If the state will legally marry any straight couple who so desires, then it is in effect a right since the difference between a right a privilege on which no restrictions other than informed consent can be imposed is mostly a matter of semantics.
  
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- lovenfl3
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:33pm
  I hear what you’re saying. We need to stop looking at everything as a right, everything is more of an opportunity.
  
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tweetybird
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:25am
We are living in the times of Noah and Lot. It won’t be too much longer before God has had enough.

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- Red Meat
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:30am
  More nails in the GOP coffin. RIP.
  
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- AnimalsAsLeaders
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:30am
  Well, he apparently didn’t “have enough” when slavery was wide spread or millions of Jews were being massacred by the Nazis so I think more loving couples getting married won’t put him over the top…
  
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- Smokey_Bojangles
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:40am
  Which means we are closer to rapture…I thought That was a good thing?
  
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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:40am
  As the Bible says no one will know the time of the End, and there have been doomsayers for thousands of years through all recorded history (who have all been wrong), I wouldn’t be so sure of this.
  
  Here’s an easy way to tell if you actually believe this or not. When do you think the world will end? 5 years? 10? Certainly not more than 20? If so, are you planning for anything beyond that… retirement, inheritance for your children? Why? Give your money away to those who can use it now if you are truly convinced. If you think the end is nigh, put your money where your mouth is and try to lessen the suffering of those who truly are in need during these final days.
  
  And if not? Sounds like you’re being just another wishy-washy doomsayer.
  
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- The Big Mick
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:43am
  ANALASS.
  Oh I don’t know, God appears to regard Homosex as a kind of Depraved Debauched and Degenerate IDOLATRY.
  Depends on if you think Sodem and Gomorrah was a One Off or a Strategic Center of Gravity.
  
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- HOOT_OWL
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:43am
  animalasleaders
  Your view is so skewed it hardly merit’s a response.
  You ooze foolishness.
  
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- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:44am
  Ah, another end times freak.
  
  Someone who is so humble that they’re egotistical enough to believe that they’ll be alive to see their savior return.
  
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- searching for the Truth
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:53am
  At that time in History, God’s people came to Him asking that they have a king rule over them instead of Him – God told them what would become of them if they decided on a king. Slaves were people who for lack of money hired over to the Hebrew people ( however, God demanded that slaves be treated fairly and were given freedom of all debts after 7 years and set free ). But, kings broke the Rules. The Arabs still have slaves , you’ll have to talk to them.
  
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- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:55am
  @Locked
  “As the Bible says no one will know the time of the End…”
  
  No one will know the day or the hour (Matt 24:36)…. we will know the season.
  
  “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near….. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.” Luke 21:28, 31
  
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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:04am
  @Chazael
  
  And all those signs were during the first century AD, so… I’d not be too worried. I repeat: YOU don’t know when the End is coming. Not even Jesus did.
  
  But if you’re convinced it’s soon, why do you still prepare for the long-term?
  
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- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:18am
  @Locked
  Incorrect.
  
  The signs are for seeing the Son of Man coming (v.27).
  
  The “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place” (v32) cannot refer to the generation He was talking “to”, but rather the generation He was taliing “about” as all things did not take place (v. 32) within the generation He was talking “to”.
  
  The generation which sees the signs in the sun, moon, stars, sea, waves, etc…. will not pass away. Which is why that gneration can say it is near, but not know the day or the hour.
  
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- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 11:47am
  @Chazael
  
  Well, you interpret Scripture differently than I do by reading more into it than is written. That’s your prerogative. I’ll just agree to disagree, and ask you the same question I asked Tweety: how long do we have? 5, 10, 20 years? Have you planned on living expenses after that in case you’re wrong?
  
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- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:10pm
  @Locked
  “Well, you interpret Scripture differently than I do by reading more into it than is written.”
  
  I showed exactly what was written… please show where I added more into it.
  
  Interpretation is where the words of a passage can mean different things or where the meaning of the word can be disputed.
  
  What you are using I call selective reading, where one has to ignore words.
  
  As far as how long, I have no idea.
  I know we are in the season which is what Jesus said we could recognize and commanded to recognize. But I do not know how long this season is, what part of the season we are in (beginning, middle, end) or in other words I do not know the day or the hour.
  In fact it will come at a time that I do not expect (Matt 24:44). Which is why I can recognize we are in the season, yet still plan as always. If I was a farmer I would plant/water/harvest if I was a stock trader I would trade as normal, if I was a hourly worker I would go to work as always.
  Those are not contradictory positions.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:27pm
  @Chazael
  
  “Interpretation is where the words of a passage can mean different things or where the meaning of the word can be disputed.
  …
  I know we are in the season which is what Jesus said we could recognize and commanded to recognize. But I do not know how long this season is, what part of the season we are in (beginning, middle, end) or in other words I do not know the day or the hour.”
  
  A season is roughly three months. Just like how a day is roughly 24 hours. When you begin to change the meaning of words, that is what I mean by reading more into it than is written.
  
  This is the common problem with end-of-the-world doomsaying. As soon as a prediction fails, the doomsayer needs to explain why – and it’s always the same excuse. “I interpreted it wrong… but the NEW end is nigh!”
  
  I simply try to live a moral, Christian life because no one will know when the End is coming (as you quoted). I prefer to be prepared and optimistic than being a pessimistic doomsayer who, like every other doomsayer throughout all of recorded history, has been wrong.
  
  Report this comment
- tweetybird
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:36pm
  @ LOCKED
  
  Just for the record, I KNOW no man will know the day or hour Jesus will return. Duh…..however, there will be signs that the end is near. Why do you think Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed?
  
  Matthew 24:37
  As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
  
  Luke 17:27-29
  People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:50pm
  @Tweety
  
  “Why do you think Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed?”
  
  Why do you think? The people were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things.
  
  Also: the world did not end when S&G were destroyed.
  
  So come now. You say we’re in the end times. Do you think you’ll live to see the end? Give me a time frame.
  
  Report this comment
- tweetybird
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 12:54pm
  @ Everyone who replied to my original message…….
  
  Call me what you want….doomsdayer freak…whatever……Not once did I put a date in my comment. All I said was that God was not going to put up with this much longer. How long that is? I don’t know. I am preparing for the future just like anyone else BECAUSE I don’t know when Jesus will return. BUT…..I want to live as if today is my last day. Whether it be Jesus comes back or I die. We should always be ready, sprititually, for death. That is something none of us will escape.
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:00pm
  @Locked
  
  One, the coming of Jesus is a time of joy for Christians. It is what allows me to accept what is happening in the world and in this country because the lie is being believed (2 Thess 2:11).
  
  And your case of selective reading….
  
  There is no word “season” used in passage. I use the word “season” to denote the parable told (the fig (v.29,30)) which is then related to “So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near” (v.31). The reason? It is shorter than quoting 3 verses on a message board.
  
  A parable shows what something is like (see Luke 13:18). Is the kingdom of God a mustard seed? Or leaven? No but its growth is “like” how a mustard seed grows into a tree and “like” leaven working its way through flour.
  
  So no the “season” before Christ’s return does not equate to a season of the year. But it is “like” one in that just “like” one can recognize that summer is near from leaves on a fig tree so to one can/will recognize the signs of the times and recognize that His coming is near.
  
  No where can one possibly state that it means that we will recognize this time in the same time frame a tree puts forth its leaves to the time of summer. Quit selectively reading scripture.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:01pm
  @Locked
  
  You know the answer….no they don’t really think that it will happen in their lifetime. But they really really really really really hope it will. They want to see the world burn…
  
  Report this comment
- tweetybird
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:12pm
  @ LOCKED
  
  I know the world didn’t end with S&G. Yes, I do think we are living in the end times. I don’t have a clue if I will part of the Rapture or not as I don’t know God’s timeline on when HE wants events to take place. Only GOD knows the day and hour. So quit asking me to give you a time frame because I DON’T KNOW. But I sure as heck want to ready if it does happen while I am still alive. I don’t want to be caught unaware thinking it won’t or can’t happen in my lifetime. So get off your high horse because you can’t tell me when it will happen either. What makes you think it can’t happen tomorrow, next week….next year? Just because you “think” it can’t/won’t happen in the next 5-20 years……doesn’t mean it wont.
  
  Matthew 24:36-42
  But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:32pm
  @Tweety
  
  “What makes you think it can’t happen tomorrow, next week….next year? Just because you “think” it can’t/won’t happen in the next 5-20 years……doesn’t mean it wont.”
  
  But you said, and I quote: “It won’t be too much longer before God has had enough.”
  
  Look, I have no problem with you thinking the end is nigh. I think it’s foolish to believe you know, when (as you quoted from Scripture) NO ONE can know. The message is clear – be ready because you won’t know before it happens.
  
  I don’t know if the world will end tomorrow – I just try to live every day as a moral Christian should. But I’m not the one claiming that “it won’t be much longer.” You are.
  
  @Chazael
  
  “So no the “season” before Christ’s return does not equate to a season of the year. But it is “like” one… No where can one possibly state that it means that we will recognize this… Quit selectively reading scripture.”
  
  I apologize for quote-mining your response to make my point, but are you not also selectively reading Scripture? You took a parable and effectively said “This proves the end is nigh!” Well to me, I look at Matthew 24:36 and say, “Huh, that seems like quite the conclusion because the Bible says there’s no way for you to know.”
  
  I think we can all agree on two things:
  1. It’s important to live a moral Christian life at all times if you believe in the Bible’s words, and
  2. It’s entirely subjective and temporally meaningless to do
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:39pm
  @The Doors
  “You know the answer….no they don’t really think that it will happen in their lifetime. But they really really really really really hope it will. They want to see the world burn…”
  —-
  “After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
  
  “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 because His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants [a]on her.” 3 And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!” 5 And a voice came from the throne, saying,
  
  “Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.” 6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
  
  “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
  Rev 19:1-6
  —-
  
  Judgment will be a time of rejoicing for those that are His. It is something to look forward to, not a time to be feared. The ones that should fear and dread it…. won’t until it is happening.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:51pm
  Should have ended with “doomsay” :-)
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 1:52pm
  @Locked
  “I apologize for quote-mining your response to make my point, but are you not also selectively reading Scripture? You took a parable and effectively said “This proves the end is nigh!” Well to me, I look at Matthew 24:36 and say, “Huh, that seems like quite the conclusion because the Bible says there’s no way for you to know.””
  
  Quote mining to make a point? We are referring to what the scripture says… and you had no idea what it actually said… hence selective reading. Or in this case, not reading.
  
  It proves that one can in fact know the “season” before Christ’s return…. which you denied. Nor have you brought up one verse from that passage to even remotely back up your assertion.
  
  You are trying to equate not knowing the day or hour (the time of coming) which is true, with not knowing the time before His coming (which is false).
  We can’t know the former, we are commanded to know the latter. Which is exactly not selective reading, but actually reading the parable and what Jesus was comparing it to… the time before His coming.
  
  You also wrote:
  
  “I think we can all agree on two things:
  1. It’s important to live a moral Christian life at all times if you believe in the Bible’s words, and
  2. It’s entirely subjective and temporally meaningless to do”
  
  Agree on #1
  #2 is flat out false. A thing is moral, precisley because it is in relation to God… all morality, if there is morality is objective. Just as all sin, when boile
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 2:00pm
  @Locked cont…
  
  Not only must it be objective, because if there is morality it must always be in relation to God, but it is also not meaningless.
  All our works will be tested, some will remain and some will not (1 Cor 3:11-15). But definately not meaningless either for good and reward or for evil and punishment.
  
  Report this comment
- tweetybird
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 2:09pm
  @ LOCKED
  
  I don’t know if I will be posting this twice, as I hit something on my keyboard and the webpage refreshed.
  
  Any ways…….Maybe I wasn’t clear in my original post. I wasn’t implying that I knew the return of the Lord. I was just saying it won’t be much longer. Maybe I should have worded it as “it seems like it won’t be much longer….”. With everything going on in the world it certainly seems like it won’t be much longer. I want to live for Christ everyday and give him the glory.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 2:17pm
  @Chazael
  
  “#2 is flat out false. A thing is moral, precisley because it is in relation to God… all morality, if there is morality is objective. Just as all sin, when boile”
  
  Morality has nothing to do with this. Subjective means “You’re applying your own biases to this” and temporally meaningless means “you’ve got no idea if this will happen now, tomorrow, 10 years from now, or 1000 years from now.”
  
  I’m not sure how you got anything about morality from that sentence, but if I somehow made you think that, I’m sorry.
  
  “and you had no idea what it actually said… hence selective reading. Or in this case, not reading.”
  
  I was actually using your own words. When I quote Scripture, I cite it :-)
  
  “It proves that one can in fact know the “season” before Christ’s return…. which you denied.”
  
  Because you are changing the definition of season to fit your own use. If you say “we’re in the season of the end,” but don’t have any temporal context for “season,” you’re saying nothing of any worth. It’s like saying “The world is going to end!” and referring to the sun expanding in billions of years. As said before, it’s a meaningless and subjective statement without a temporal context; you’ve got no idea if this will happen tomorrow, in 10 years, or 1000 years from now.
  
  Report this comment
- HOOT_OWL
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 2:55pm
  @Locked & The Doors
  
  ( Matthew 24: 32 )
  “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree.
  When its branches become tender and it produces leaves,
  you know that summer is near.”
  
  This Bible verse refers to the re-birth of Israel as a nation .
  
  They were scattered to the four winds for a millennia
  UNTIL
  In 1948 they became a nation.. but still was incomplete
  UNTIL
  In 1967 after the 6day war they recaptured the temple mount
  And finally for the first time since Christ
  ISRAEL The people …and ISRAEL the land ….are together.
  
  And that Completes this part of prophecy…Giving us the >> SEASON <<
  
  NOW
  We can say for the first time in history ’this generation will NOT pass‘.
  NOW
  We can say ,‘we know the season …But not the day or the hour‘.
  NOW
  We can look at other end time prophecies.
  
  It ALL fits..!
  
  Bible Prophecy is not wrong, Its has been people not SEEING the first sign .
  Knowing first ‘That its all about the fig tree…. ISRAEL‘.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 3:17pm
  @Tweety
  
  “With everything going on in the world it certainly seems like it won’t be much longer. I want to live for Christ everyday and give him the glory.”
  
  And I apologize for sparking such a fierce vis-a-vis; I am not trying to antagonize anyone or dissuade them from their faith (far from it: the more followers of Christ, the better!). I just tire of hearing all the doom-and-gloom in the world, especially coming from our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We’ve heard “The end is nigh!!” so many times, but it has never proven true; however, there are always unfortunate casualties who do ruin their lives by believing such things (think of the followers of Harold Camping, who gave away all their possessions just to have the predictions failed).
  
  Whether The End comes tomorrow, or in 1000 years, the important thing is to be right with God and to try and live every moment as righteously as possible. May blessings be upon you!
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 3:20pm
  @Locked
  
  I took your “its” to refer back to #1, which was about a “moral Christian life”.
  If your “its” is in reference to the scripture passage… you are still false. It is not a subjective interpretation, but rather whether or not how one understands it is correct. Whenever one has a standard (the Bible) it will lead to an objective true or false understanding.
  And you are still incorrect about being meaningless as how can a command to lift up one’s head when one recognizes these signs be meaningless? You are either obeying that command or not obeying it.
  
  You also said:
  “I was actually using your own words. When I quote Scripture, I cite it :-)”
  
  This whole discussion is about scripture and what it says. Please show how using the word “season” for what happens before Christ’s return does not fir with v.28-31. You can’t cite it because as shown above it contradicts what you are saying.
  
  You said:
  “Because you are changing the definition of season to fit your own use. If you say “we’re in the season of the end,” but don’t have any temporal context for “season,…”
  
  The context of “season” is the time before Christ’s return when “when you see these things happening” (v.31). Season = These things happening. If you would like use x for the value..
  
  Please show how that statement above is of no worth… Just as your replies about not knowing the time before Christ’s return in Luke 21 have been . Because what you
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:00pm
  @Chazael
  
  “Please show how that statement above is of no worth…”
  
  I already did. Tell me how long a “season” is. Tell me, even within a 5 year range, when “the end” is coming. “Soon?” When is “soon”? The term is without meaning, because you cannot give “soon” any temporal meaning. Same with the term “season,” which you have changed from its actual meaning to be temporally moot as well.
  
  If you’re saying that one day the Earth will end then even atheists will agree with you: eventually, in billions of years, the sun will expand and the Earth will be obliterated. But again that’s pretty worthless unless we were talking to the last generation before our sun explodes.
  
  This is the same issue we get into with all doomsaying; you’re arguing that it isn’t based on time, but on signs. Well that’s worthless to us too; even if all the signs are seen, that still gives us no timeframe. And what if we misinterpret the signs? Many of the earliest followers of Christ were convinced they were living in the end times as well; I highly doubt they argued that “this generation” didn’t refer to them, but to people two thousand years later. Well, until “the end” never came.
  
  I’ll argue what I said before: we should live our lives as best as possible, and leave off all the “end is nigh” nonsense, because none of us know when the end is coming or if we’ll even live to see it, so “nigh” is subjective and temporally worthless.
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:38pm
  @Locked
  “I already did. Tell me how long a “season” is. Tell me, even within a 5 year range, when “the end” is coming. “Soon?” When is “soon”? The term is without meaning, because you cannot give “soon” any temporal meaning.”
  
  Now we are at the absurd level. Which happens when trying to defend to the last something which is in error. Let’s recap:
  
  -Passage doesn’t refer to end times, but rather referred to a past event in the 1st century ad.
  Which was shown to be false with Bible quotes from said passage.
  -Then you went to cannot know the season, because the Bible says we can’t know.
  Was shown to be false as we are talking about 2 separate things season versus day/hour.
  -Then you retreated to an argument about season’s being a specified time period, 3 months I think you said.
  This was shown to be false as the parable shows what something is “like”. You were even shown what season was equivalent to in the passage… and that you could even replace the word with a variable if you so chose.
  -Now you are saying, because the season is of an inderterminate value in regards to our knowledge the season is without meaning. Wow!!!
  Let me rephrase: I don’t know when this war will end, any statement about this war is without meaning….Feel free to replace war with any indeterminate event.
  
  We are at the absurd.
  
  Why would Jesus say to raise our heads in expectation at this time period described if it wasn’t knowable?
  
  Please answer.
  
  Report this comment
- tweetybird
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 4:55pm
  @ LOCKED
  
  I understand what you mean with all the “Harold Campings” in the world. I guess that is why Jesus said to watch out for such people. Jesus also said to keep watch since we do not know the day or hour. So, that is what I am doing.
  
  May blessings be upon you as well.
  
  Luke 21:8
  He replied: Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.
  
  Luke 21:36
  Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 5:04pm
  @Chazael
  
  Wow, I have NO idea how that was your following of the conversation. Mine was much simpler:
  You: The world will end. Soon. This season.
  Me: That means nothing, because “soon” and “season” are completely undefined, temporally. It could be tomorrow or in 1000 years.
  
  And then a bunch of bickering back and forth where you seemed to try and “prove” the world is ending soon, but not explaining what soon is. Sorry if we haven’t been seeing eye to eye.
  
  “Let me rephrase: I don’t know when this war will end, any statement about this war is without meaning….Feel free to replace war with any indeterminate event.”
  
  Let me rephrase: The world will end. No one knows when. Thus it’s meaningless to say “soon,” as you have no idea when it’ll happen – just that it will.
  
  “Why would Jesus say to raise our heads in expectation at this time period described if it wasn’t knowable?”
  
  Not even Jesus knew when the world would end (which always struck me as poorly worded; He is God, after all. But that’s a different matter). What you’re asking, in effect, is why Jesus would tell us to live a good, moral life by following his teachings. Now that is absurd!
  
  But “this time period” again misses the point – you don’t know it’s this time period. You’re looking for signs; Jesus said we should live morally because we never know (even with “signs”!) when the end will come.
  
  He’d make a good Boy Scout: Always be prepared!
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 5:21pm
  @Locked
  If it were as simple as you stated… you wouldn’t have started with an argument that the passage did not deal with a specific period of time before His coming, but an earlier one (1st cent). And then ending up where you are now. That shows a progression of retreating and ending up at this point (not dealing with the passage and what it says, but if what it says is even possible).
  
  This last part you wrote will sum it up nicely:
  “Not even Jesus knew when the world would end (which always struck me as poorly worded; He is God, after all. But that’s a different matter). What you’re asking, in effect, is why Jesus would tell us to live a good, moral life by following his teachings. Now that is absurd!
  
  But “this time period” again misses the point – you don’t know it’s this time period. You’re looking for signs; Jesus said we should live morally because we never know (even with “signs”!) when the end will come.”
  
  Of course Jesus said that… that in no way contradicts what He also said… when you see these signs… lift up your heads in anticipation.
  Jesus does not know the day or the hour. He DOES know when the season just preceding that event looks like. And then tells us to watch for it. The two are quite compatible and make perfect sense.
  
  Notice now your saying I do not know we are in this time period…. which is another retreat to a different, but related argument. If you are now saying it can be known… but you don’t know it,
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 5:24pm
  @ Locked
  
  Cont… just in case it cuts off the last part.
  
  Jesus does not know the day or the hour. He DOES know when the season just preceding that event looks like. And then tells us to watch for it. The two are quite compatible and make perfect sense.
  
  Notice now your saying I do not know we are in this time period…. which is another retreat to a different, but related argument. If you are now saying it can be known… but you don’t know it, then this conversation is now over.
  
  Short form:
  1) Jesus does not know the day or hour.
  2) Jesus knows the season preceding it
  3) Jesus tells us to lift our heads at the signs of this season.
  4) Which means there is such a time period (season) and we can in fact know it.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 6:03pm
  I guess we’re saying the same thing, but interpreting it differently.
  
  You: The signs are here – we’re in the final season. Let’s lift our heads in anticipation of the end! Let’s live our lives as good, moral Christians so we can reach eternal life when the end comes!
  Me: People throughout all of history (including the first century) thought the signs of the end were here and they would see the world end shortly. Rather than banking on us being right and them being wrong, let’s not worry about the end and live our lives as good, moral Christians so no matter if the end comes or we get hit by a truck, we can reach eternal life!
  
  I guess my point is, since we have no way of knowing when the end comes why even talk about it? Why use adjectives like “soon” or temporal descriptions like “season,” when there’s no way to know the “when” involved?
  
  Report this comment
- Chazael
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 6:24pm
  @Locked
  Just to reiterate:
  
  “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads; because your redemption is drawing near.” Luke 21:28
  
  So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.” Luke 21:31
  
  We are always to be prepared. This has applied to all Christians, throughout all the generations.
  
  These statements aren’t infinging upon that truth, they are adding another layer to it.
  
  At a certain time, that will be recognizable, there will be a period of time of inderminate length, that Jesus describes as “near” and “short”. I don’t know the length, nor do I need to know, and if I said I did know I would be wrong. Jesus doesn’t know the exact time either, but He calls it near and short for a reason… that is what the Father told/shown Him.
  
  What He describes as the “generation” could be 30 years or closer to 110 when everyone of a generation has died. I don’t need to know that in order to say its close, just as Jesus didn’t need to know to say it would be close.
  
  To go back to another example, I can say a war is drawing down as it is close to being won, even though I do not know the day or hour it will be over. And it makes perfect sense and has a discernable meaning. Hitler knew this and so did his generals (the generals recognized this first) just as today Syria’s leader holds out hope, while his higher ups bail out.
  
  If you reply I might be a bit.. letting the kids tak
  
  Report this comment
- Xylliab_of_the_Znarghh
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 6:49pm
  If you really think that the same God who sat back and did nothing about the Inquisition, or the Spanish conquest of the Americas, or the African slave trade, or the Nazi genocide of the Jews, is going to suddenly be spurred to intervene directly in human affairs because the sight of gays being allowed to marry the ones they love is the worst most offensive thing that He has ever seen us do, and He just can’t stand any more, then you are a deeply disturbed individual.
  
  Report this comment
- Walkabout
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 7:35pm
  Argument to moderation (false compromise, middle ground, fallacy of the mean) – assuming that the compromise between two positions is always correct
  
  Except moderationisbe4st is very immoderate in her criticism of social conservatives & soppingly effusive over her praise for liberal positions.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 8:28pm
  @Walkabout
  
  “Argument to moderation (false compromise, middle ground, fallacy of the mean) – assuming that the compromise between two positions is always correct”
  
  Come back when you’re sober, Walkabout. Talk on topic, or please just sit quietly off to the side.
  
  @Chazael
  
  “At a certain time, that will be recognizable, there will be a period of time of inderminate length, that Jesus describes as “near” and “short”. I don’t know the length, nor do I need to know, and if I said I did know I would be wrong.”
  
  Here again we run into my main issue. You’re convinced (or seem to be) that you have seen the signs of the end. But that’s just the thing – so have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, of believers (or more!) throughout history, including those who were contemporaries of Christ.
  
  That’s all well and good, though I disagree with your view (personally I never felt the world was closer to The End than in the 1960s and 1980s), but I don’t see it as relevant. We’re called to always follow Christ’s teachings. I could see a point in exclaiming “the end is nigh!” when a meteor is 3 days away from crashing into the earth… but for the average person, saying “this is the season of the end!” is going to turn them off from the Good News.
  
  Even as a believer, I scoff as doomsayers, because during my life I have seen a myriad come and go without fruition. I’d rather focus on what we do know: that we can attain eternal life.
  
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- TASS50
  Posted on February 26, 2013 at 9:20pm
  I agree on that statement. God needs to come out of his heavens and show himself to the leftist, atheist. It would be a good idea to just remove the word marriage for the sake of all this garbage going on.
  
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Fubared
Posted on February 26, 2013 at 10:24am
I will wait for CAIR to weigh in. RINOs at it again.

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