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Teacher Fired for Allegedly Preaching Creationism and Having a Bible in Class Takes His Battle to OH Supreme Court

Feb. 27, 2013 7:18am Billy Hallowell

COLUMBUS, Ohio (TheBlaze/AP) — Attorneys for a fired public school science teacher who kept a Bible on his desk plan to argue before the Ohio Supreme Court that the teacher’s dismissal was unconstitutional. The legal battle continues more than one year after TheBlaze first covered it in Oct. 2011.

The Mount Vernon School Board dismissed John Freshwater in 2011 after investigators reported he preached Christian beliefs in class when discussing topics such as evolution and homosexuality and was insubordinate in failing to remove the Bible from his classroom.

Freshwater also was accused of using a science tool to burn students’ arms with the image of a cross, but that allegation was resolved and was not a factor in his firing.

Two lower courts previously upheld Freshwater’s dismissal, but the state Supreme Court agreed to hear a portion of his claims over his firing. The hearing was to be held Wednesday.

In the past, the teacher has defended himself. See this 2008 testimony to the school board during which he attempted to debunk some of the claims against him:

The court said Freshwater can argue it is unconstitutional to fire someone without clear guidance on what teaching materials or methods are acceptable. Freshwater also can argue it is unconstitutional to fire someone over the mere presence of a religious text such as the Bible in a classroom.

As an eighth-grade science teacher, Freshwater tried to encourage his students to examine facts and theories and hypotheses and then question them and differentiate between them, his attorney said in a court filing last year.

A voluntary discussion of creationism or “intelligent design” as part of the mandatory discussion of evolution is unquestionably part of a secular education program, attorney Kelly Hamilton wrote.

“Freshwater did not engage in religious proselytization — he discussed a scientific theory that happens to be consistent with the teachings of multiple major world religions,” Hamilton wrote.

The board’s actions, he concluded, were nothing less “than the censorship of ideas.”

Here, again, the teacher defends himself in front of the Mount Vernon School Board — this time in 2010:

Freshwater is getting legal backing from the Charlottesville, Va.-based Rutherford Institute, a civil liberties group.

Attorneys for the school board countered that Freshwater had long tried to push religion in the classroom.

As far back as 1994, a middle school principal told Freshwater to stop distributing an “Answers in Genesis” pamphlet with information about a creationist organization’s upcoming seminar, according to a filing by board attorneys asking the court to uphold Freshwater’s firing.

Freshwater also used a handout titled “Survival of the Fakest,” to teach his students to doubt science, the board’s attorneys said.

“Whenever Freshwater was told by a superior to cease using an inappropriate handout in class, he would simply find another one to use,” the board’s attorneys said in a filing last fall.

Science education and humanist and secular groups have joined the side of the school board.

The board once concluded Freshwater had used a high-frequency generator, which other teachers have used to demonstrate electrical current, to burn a cross onto a student’s arm. The cross lasted a few weeks.

The student’s family settled a federal lawsuit against the district in an effort to move on.

–

Related:

Judge Upholds Firing of Science Teacher Accused of Preaching Creationism & Religious Doctrine

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Comments (197)

Verceofreason
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:46am
Sorry dude,
You are clearly to dumb to be teaching in a PUBLIC school
Find a nice Parochial school.

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- Locked
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 12:08pm
  “You are clearly to dumb to be teaching in a PUBLIC school”
  
  The irony is strong with this statement.
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 1:26pm
  Where’s the irony. I’m not a teacher.
  
  Report this comment
- Sensible_Centrist_Democrat
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 2:05pm
  I find all the hatred of public school teachers to be disgusting.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 2:15pm
  @Verce
  
  That in a comment about something being “to” dumb to teach in a public school, you did not spell “too” correctly :-)
  
  Report this comment
universalphilos
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:36am
I remember when I sat, listening to a man through whom vast spirit sent from God was speaking. The more I listened, the more I could feel this presence. It reminded me of the Bible, of something so close to God it was more than I could fathom. Beginning to wonder who this was speaking, I asked a question from a book I was reading at the time.
December 15, 1972: “Are you, or could you tell us about the Creative Elohim of God? And are you the Seven Spirits which evolved from Tao Great? What does it mean in the Aquarian Gospel that man’s soul lives within the seven breaths of Tao Great?”
I felt the consciousness look right into my soul as it said: “We should answer in this manner. Within our council lies the Seven Spirits of our Father.
And as thy have asked of Tao Great, our Lord sent those forth unto the universe as His messengers and as His tools and instruments, that we should do His work. In some places we have built whole universes, in others but small souls, yet all was mighty in the eyes of our Father. For as we have said before, we stand as close to our Father as His eyes, His ears and His heart, yet we do so in humble reverence of our holy Father.”
Do I believe in Creationism? I may not fully know what that is, having not studied it. But I have met and listened to the spirit God sends since before the world began.
http://www.angelfire.com/in4/aup_messiah/1972December15.audio.html

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SOUNDTHETRUMPET
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:34am
Parents get in the face of your state government and make all the schools be private. If the godless heathen parents want to send there kid to gov communist school that would be there choice. Parents need a choice to get there kids out of the communist teachings that comes from Washington. Abolish the unconstitutional Dept of Education.

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- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:49am
  Spoken like a true religious nutjob. You crap on those of us who exercise are free will and chose not be buy into your religion. Not very Christian of you. Religion should be taught in the home and in the Church. NOT in a SCIENCE class. I wouldn’t even be against having a theology class in public schools as long as they covered more than one religion. Religion has no place at all in a science class.
  
  I used to do IT for a Jewish private school and they NEVER brought up religion in their science classes.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:52am
  Yes please, then we can watch all the christian kids fail at getting science and technology jobs while they are told the earth is 6000 years old and that woman was created from the rib of a man. This is 2013 your magic belongs in your home…our country…our reality depends on it.
  
  Report this comment
- Abigail Adams
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:35am
  This is why we homeschool.
  And my homeschooled Christian, Creationist believing 6th grader is about to take 1st in the state science fair in April.
  Real scientists question EVERYTHING. They don’t just regurgitate the junk science behind one theory, like Evolution.
  You want to question the science of Creationism? You do that with Science. But closed minded people are so afraid they will find their is a God that they just belittle Christians.
  
  All this teacher did was discuss more than one theory and invite questions and research on all theories. Anyone who says that Evolution is the only way, so nobody ask any questions about it, doesn’t understand what science is. Science is the practice of studying and researching everything.
  
  Have fun in your alternate reality, where a star farted and life was made. That’s sooo much more plausible than my imaginary sky god.
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:49am
  Creationism = church.
  Soooooooooo difficult.
  
  Report this comment
- carbonyes
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:59am
  Well spoken! We do need to remove our children from the godless government schools. Not easy to do and not always easily affordable, especially when our taxes finance the gobble d **** that emanates from their teachings, which spends more time on values clarification and situation ethics and indoctrinating our children in humanism and gay lifestyles than science, math, reading and writing.
  Yes indeed get your children out of public schools if you want to still have a child at the age of 18 when he or she graduates.
  For the other clueless who make naive and irrational comments like most liberals do, if we were still using the NEW ENGLAND PRIMER today, not only would our kids be a me to read and have an understanding of truth, but the country would be more stable and not have been led down the road of perdition, but would also have a better understanding of our forefathers for they would not have permitted the rewriting of our history books to the exclusion of what made this country great and replaced the truth with programmed lies and deception.
  The devil is alive and well, but his time is rapidly running out.
  
  Report this comment
- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 12:41pm
  @abigail
  
  Name one scientific discovery or everyday application that has been achieved by studying “creation science”?? You can google the millions based on the theory of evolution. I’ll wait patiently…
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:24pm
  DOORS, here are more than a few…
  
  http://www.icr.org/articles/type/9/
  
  Report this comment
Locked
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:35am
There’s a lot more background to Freshwater’s actions with the Mount Vernon school system than is listed in this article, going back almost 20 years. Among other things, he’s lectured about homosexuality being a sin during his science lessons; has placed religious messages (such as the Ten Commandments) in his classroom; has given extra credit for writing reports on pro-creationist movies; and has handed out pamphlets to his students advertising religious events.

I have no issue with him holding these personal views, but there is definitely a conflict in the way they’ve been expressed through his role as a science teacher. If he had been a Muslim doing these things most of the people supporting him in these comments would be filled with righteous fury.

It’s the responsibility of good Christian parents to teach their children biblical morality and about Jesus Christ; it’s not the place of a public school teacher.

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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:41am
  @Locked
  
  Thank you again for being so dang logical and right.
  
  Report this comment
- Brentley
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:45am
  I agree and disagree. There was a time in this country where bible was used to teach children to read and write and do science and math. The name of that wonderful book was NEW ENGLAND PRIMER. George Washington, Jefferson and others were taught from that book.
  What has transpired is a total removal of GOD from classrooms. Read this book ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Written by Dr.David C. Gibbs Jr. along with Jerry Newcombe. This book will open your eyes. IT IS AMAZING what our government has managed to wipe out since our founding.
  
  Report this comment
- OneTermPresident
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:08am
  @LOCKED
  
  When there’s two sides of thought and belief to an issue both must be discussed so logical choices and decisions can be made. Would they have complained if he kept a book about Darwinism on his desk? Stifling one side over the other… is nothing more than keeping your own thinking safe.
  
  Report this comment
- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:30am
  Brentley:
  
  What does it matter if they used the Bible way back to tech? Are trying to say religion has a place in the science class? Science addresses the quantifiable. Religions addresses the spiritual. Oil and H2O. In MODERN times we acknowledge there is a very IMPORTANT difference between science and religion. Religion needs to be kept out of the classroom lessons. I have no problem with allowing everyone on schools time for prayer and what not since this is not preaching or teaching religion. It’s allowing people to exercise their religion. A constitutionally protected right. Once you bring religion into the lessons you have crossed the line from simply educating the children to trying to indoctrinate them in whatever religion the teacher chooses to push. Something I can never get is the fact that there are countless religions in the world and Christians, Muslims, and Jews all seem to feel they are right and everyone else who does not believe as they do is 100% wrong. This is the ultimate display of arrogance in my opinion.
  
  Report this comment
- kywillie
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:38am
  @ Oneterm,
  
  First of all you might want to update your name, it didn’t work out for you. Second of all you are talking about theology in science class, which doesn’t mix. Its not there is this theory A and theory B and its a toss up to which one is right. Evolution is the accepted scientific theory. He should become a religion teacher if he wants to teach religion. If he was teaching islamic theories in this class I’m guessing you wouldn’t be cool with that but becaause you agree with his religion you’re fine with it.
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:42am
  @ONETERMPRESIDENT
  
  “When there’s two sides of thought and belief to an issue both must be discussed so logical choices and decisions can be made.”
  
  Surely you can’t be serious?
  
  There is no science behind “God did it.”
  
  Secondly, I don’t get this “teach the controversy” nonsense. There is no controversy among the scientific community except from an extreme subset of “scientists” who are also “creationists” and reject evolution.
  
  Just because there is a big group of the american public who “believe” in creationism, doesn’t mean it should be taught. I saw a poll a few years ago that said something like 45%+ of the American people answered “YES” to the question of, “The Sun revolves around the Earth and takes a year to do so.” So since a large majority of people “believe” that, should the “controversy” be taught?
  
  “The purpose of education isn’t to validate ignorance, but to overcome it.”
  
  Report this comment
- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:44am
  kywillie:
  One nit. Evolution is not a theory. It’s a demonstrable fact. Darwin’s Origin of Species idea is a theory.
  
  Report this comment
- john vincent
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:48am
  -searcher
  
  you used the word ‘religion’ nine times. When a man puts forth the idea of God creating a tree as opposed to a tree birthing itself, what ‘religion’ is the teacher putting forth??
  
  @oneterm
  
  -’keeping your own thinking safe.’ great line
  
  Report this comment
- kywillie
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:57am
  Don’t nit pick when we agree, I realize that things evolving is a fact and the term evolution does not just involve mans evolution. But in context of the argument, I think you realize what I was referring to.
  
  Report this comment
- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:59am
  john vincent:
  
  Based on your reply, I don’t know why you even bothered replying since you clearly are not looking for a serious discussion. Your God is not the only possible answer.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:01am
  @Oneterm
  
  “When there’s two sides of thought and belief to an issue both must be discussed so logical choices and decisions can be made.”
  
  If the support for both sides is equivalent, I agree – they both deserve equal time of discussion. If the example you’re using is evolution versus creationism, however, they are hardly equivalent. One is a scientific theory – the other is not scientific, but based solely on faith.
  
  Rather than discussing the merits of creationism (or ID; we know they’re functionally equivalent) versus evolution, the class should teach what it means to be a scientific theory. Then, if a student brought up creationism in a science class, a teacher would only need to say “Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory, and thus has no place being discussed in a science class.”
  
  Report this comment
- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:06am
  kywillie:
  
  What I’m getting at is that in discussions like this we NEED to be as clear as possible. Thanks to people not being clear the average person seems to think that evolution states one species will become another given enough time. That couldn’t be more wrong. Others seem to think evolution means an organism moving from a “primitive” form to a more advanced form. Also untrue. Any discussion on this should be promoting truth and knowledge and thus should strive to prevent fostering more misunderstanding.
  
  Report this comment
- QuincySmith
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:07am
  Locked, I really think you’re LOADED! You obviously think it is alright for teachers to spew anti-religious, unproven ‘scientific’ propaganda, false history, fuzzy math, and illogical economics, advocate personal views you agree with, but are offended by real history that includes the ten commandments, religious foundations, from the pilgrims to the founders, of America’s birth and world power emergence. You, sir, as Ronald Reagan said are the problem.
  
  Report this comment
- john vincent
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:16am
  -searcher
  
  if you were in my class, you would get a failing grade- not because you disagree, but because you cannot follow a cogent thought. I asked you WHAT RELIGION is represented? your word, you used it nine times in a paragraph, just looking for some context.
  
  hint hint- God is not a religion…………….
  
  So when a teacher puts for the idea that things were created, what religion is represented???? Everybody can see your baseless charge and half attempt to an insult which I can overlook. I am merely asking you to define your own words. Surely in a healthy debate, you are not offended that a teacher ask you for clarification….
  
  Report this comment
- carbonyes
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:43am
  Moderationisbest, if education is to overcome ignorance, what happen to you? Evolution is neither a established fact nor a provable theory, and you can not find one scintilla of evidence to show otherwise. Definitely a problem both for the liberals and the atheists.
  
  If you would like to learn about the messed up thinking and mindsets of the liberal, please dare if you will to purchase a copy of “The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness” by Lyle H. Rossiter, Jr., M.D., a forensic psychiatrist with at least 35 yrs. of clinical experience.
  
  Quite obvious you don’t want to be challenged by your denial of the existence of God, but you will not have a choice in the hereafter, for then shall the truth be revealed to you. Sadly it will be to late then to do anything about it. Having traversed the halls of a good law school and graduated therefrom, I was e posed to a brilliant legal mind who prided himself in being a humanist. A number of years back before he died and traveled from this world to the next, he bragged about how he was going to show God a thing or two. Well this gentleman died, but sad to say if he did not come to know Him on this earth through Jesus Christ, God is showing him a trying or two, and he does not like any of it, for eternity will be spent in Hell. Contrary to what many believe, there is a Hell, and trust me or not, you would not want to spend one day there.
  
  Report this comment
- Locked
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:56am
  @Quincy
  
  “You obviously think it is alright for teachers to spew anti-religious, unproven ‘scientific’ propaganda”
  
  Surely you’re not talking about evolution here? It’s as “proven” as scientific theory can get. It’s also not anti-religious in the least; most Christians believe in evolution and see no dissonance between science and their faith. For example, the Roman Catholic Church has endorsed evolution as being true and in line with their teachings (I’m not Catholic, but I’m just using this as an example).
  
  “false history, fuzzy math, and illogical economics, advocate personal views you agree with”
  
  Citations needed. Where have any of these things been discussed? Feel free to quote or link.
  
  “but are offended by real history that includes the ten commandments, religious foundations, from the pilgrims to the founders, of America’s birth and world power emergence.”
  
  Again, citations needed. It seems you are lying. And no, the 10 Commandments do not belong in a science classroom in a public school.
  
  “You, sir, as Ronald Reagan said are the problem.”
  
  I disagree, but thank you for your unfounded opinion. If being a Constitutionalist, a Christian, and a conservative is part of Reagan’s “problem,” I’d say it’s the country that’s in trouble! I’d also say you nothing about Ronald Reagan :-)
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 1:27pm
  Creationism ISN’T SCIENCE.
  There are NOT 2 points of view,
  
  Report this comment
- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:32pm
  VERCE, yes they are. http://www.icr.org/
  
  Report this comment
- ModerationIsBest
  Posted on February 28, 2013 at 1:31am
  @CARBONYES
  
  “…and you can not find one scintilla of evidence to show otherwise.” Talk about not wanting to be “challenged”
  
  I have read the Bible and Mere Christianity and other books written by believers. I found some interesting, but not evidence or proof.
  
  It was all based around “faith” and “belief.”
  
  I noticed that when talking about your God, you didn’t use any kind of example regarding evidence of proof, the same thing you require from science and evolution(of which there is tons of evidence whether you choose to accept it or not).
  
  Instead, here is what you said
  
  “….but you will not have a choice in the hereafter, for then shall the truth be revealed to you.” Much like a religious person, you make claims, provide no evidence and then say “well eventually I’ll be proven correct.”
  
  “God is showing him a trying or two, and he does not like any of it, for eternity will be spent in Hell.” Again, no evidence, just a claim and a threat that if I don’t agree with you, there will be a price to be paid.
  
  “Contrary to what many believe, there is a Hell, and trust me or not, you would not want to spend one day there.”
  
  Again, no evidence, just another “belief” and a claim that is followed by another threat.
  
  Get a clue, I don’t care what you “believe.”
  
  Here’s a hint now, if you’re going to require evidence from someone else, require it from yourself as well.
  
  Report this comment
What the Heck
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:34am
Just put on a burka, red the Koran and teach how Islam is ok. YOU will be ok, just don’t wear a cross, have a bible, or even think Christian.
OH, that is sharia is it not.

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lgccac
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:12am
How dare a teacher actually attempt to teach the truth.

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- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:31am
  What “truth” is that?
  
  Report this comment
- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 1:29pm
  Careful you don’t fall off the edge of the earth,
  Hon, you cannot shape the real world to conform to YOUR religious beliefs.
  Just promise, you wont burn any witches.
  
  Report this comment
David-FL
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:05am
Every knee shall bow…

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David-FL
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:04am
Every knee shall bow…..

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- jettson
  Posted on February 28, 2013 at 9:41am
  The fools don’t hear this. I don’t care what all you fools think All knee shall bend. This is the truth everything else is fiction.
  
  Report this comment
toomuchgovt
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:55am
Won’t it be great if Conservative Parents took the same interest in what their kids were being taught and complained bitterly to the school board. If you listen to each of these tapes, this one kid, one parent that complained. I want to know where are the Conservative squeaky wheels? It is time to squeak back or be silence.

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- soybomb315_II
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:23am
  conservative parents shouldnt expect the government to do the job of a parent
  
  Report this comment
- Melika
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:56am
  Liberal parents expect the government to do the job of the parents, why shouldn’t conservative and religious parents get similar services for their money?
  
  I know this will be confusing for you so here are some examples:
  -sex
  -sexual prophylactics
  -abortion
  -relative morality based on your “culture”, so long as your culture isn’t American
  -complete obliteration of Christianity from the public culture and discourse, unless it is to eviscerate it.
  -inclusive “understanding” of other religions and cultures, no matter how anti-social and detrimental to people & cultures they are (Islam, Occupy, Black Panthers)
  -free food (SNAP & WIC)
  -free school food
  -free school medical care
  -free medical care after school (medicaid)
  -free books, toys (local WIC office)
  -free clothes (clothing “vouchers”)
  -free money (cash assistance)
  -more free money (“Earned” Income Credit)
  -free education
  -free computers (via “education” initiatives)
  -free cell phones
  -free house phones
  -free heating & electric (LIHEAP)
  
  Well, I could continue on and on, but I have to get back to work to pay for all these things. It’s hard to believe so many Americans died to get rid of slavery, and we’ve gone ahead and instituted it with a new name. I love how liberal celebrate “freedom” while enslaving an entire sector of the American public to their “causes”.
  
  Report this comment
The_Doors_Of_Perception
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:40am
@beck

Creationism is not science. Name one thing scientific that has come out of creationism? Can be anything….a development…anything…i’ll wait. Now you can just google the millions of scientific and medical advancements that have occured thanks to the theory of evolution.

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- VigilantiaNonCadet
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 2:34pm
  Sir Francis Bacon – Creationist – Father of the Scientific Method
  Johannes Kepler – Creationist – Laws of Planetary Motion
  Sir Isaac Newton – Creationist – Law of Gravity and Co-Founder of Calculus
  Raymond Vahan Damadian – Creationist – Inventor of the MRI
  Just to name a few. There are many, many more PhD’s that believe in Creation.
  Observational Science is only possible because of the physical laws that govern the universe. If evolution is true; if random chance processes resulted in our modern world, than how can one account for such laws? How can we trust our observations? On an elementary level, evolution defies and undermines both the laws of logic and science. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and The Law of Biogenesis stand in direct opposition to evolution. The Philosophical problem of “The one and the many”, the grace vs. nature dichotomy that has plagued man for hundreds of years with disastrous results is only solved by belief in the “Infinite-Personal God” Jesus Christ. Those who begin with evolution end up with disaster:
  Francis Galton- Evolutionist – Father of Eugenics
  Margaret Sanger- Evolutionist – Racist Founder of Planned Parenthood
  Adolf Hitler – Evolutionist – Founder of Nazism
  Karl Marx – Evolutionist – Father of Communism
  
  Report this comment
- Sensible_Centrist_Democrat
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 4:23pm
  Newton also believed in Alchemy, where there were Philsopher’s Stones and Elixirs that could turn any substance into gold. Newton was hardly correct in all his views.
  
  Also your classification of Hitler as an evolutionist is laughable. Social Darwinism and Biological Darwinism are completely different. Hitler actually banned Darwin’s On the Origin of Species. Hitler stated: “The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator.” Hardly sounds like a believer of evolution.
  
  You made the worst straw-man argument I’ve ever seen. Social darwinism is not evolutionary biology. Darwin disavowed the application of his principles to society.
  
  You are also refusing to apply your same level of criticism towards creationism. You say there is not evidence in favor of evolution, but what evidence is there in favor of creationism? Creationism is a logical fallacy (circular reasoning). You start off with the premise that the bible is 100% correct. The bible states that god created the earth and all life. Thus creationism is true.
  
  Report this comment
- VigilantiaNonCadet
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:20pm
  @ Sensible_Centrist_Democrat
  Firstly, Hitler was an evil, two-faced liar. He said one thing in front of the 90% Christian German masses and quite another behind closed doors. Here is Hitler in his own words:
  “National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. “
  “When man attempts to rebel against the iron logic of Nature, he comes into struggle with the principles to which he himself owes his existence as a man. And this attack must lead to his own doom.”
  “In the limitation of this living space lies the compulsion for the struggle for survival, and the struggle for survival in turn contains the precondition for evolution.”
  Hardly sounds like a Creationist.
  
  Report this comment
- VigilantiaNonCadet
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:22pm
  Second, I was not saying that Social Darwinism is the same as Evolutionary Biology. I was trying to show that an Evolutionary worldview places no value on human life. If we are the descendants of primordial goo, then what makes man any different from the rest of Creation? Why shouldn’t the “Law of tooth and claw” and “Survival of the fittest” apply to man as well? Darwin himself said:
  “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world.”
  So much for Darwin disavowing social Darwinism.
  
  Third, my favorite proof of Creation is logic! To be logical (or moral) you do not have to believe Biblical creation; but Biblical creation has to be true for either logic or morality to exist. Why should I use logic in my arguments? Because it is the moral, or right, thing to do. But why should I be moral? After all, if life is the result of the “survival of the fittest” what would restrain me from lying, stealing, or even killing if it is to my advantage? Why are there consistent laws of logic if mindless processes governed our development? If evolution is true, then we must question our very ability to accurately think and process information. Both logic and morality become nonsensical.
  
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- VigilantiaNonCadet
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:25pm
  Circular Reasoning is not always fallacious. Let me quote a bit from “The Ultimate Proof of Creation” by Dr. Jason Lisle:
  “…Some degree of circular reasoning is unavoidable when proving an ultimate standard. This follows from what we have already established: an ultimate standard cannot be proved from anything else, otherwise it wouldn’t be ultimate. Therefore, if it is to be proved, it must use itself as the criterion… Proverbs 1:7 states, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” So we can either begin with God and His presuppositions (as revealed in His Word), or we can reject them and be reduced to foolishness. The Christian claim is therefore not a vicious circle. I’m not merely arguing, “The Bible must be the Word of God because it says it is.” Rather, I’m arguing, “The Bible must be the Word of God because it says it is and if you reject this claim you are reduced to foolishness.” This moves beyond a simple vicious circle of reasoning. Like laws of logic, the Bible must be true because if it were not, we could not prove anything.”
  I wish I had the time to cover this more extensively. Please consider looking into Dr. Lisle’s book for yourself. I will be praying that God will open your heart and your mind to the truth of His sovereignty and love for you. It is in Him that we live and by His grace that we are able to witness and analyze His creation.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:52pm
  Great stuff. Thanks for sharing.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:47pm
  http://www.icr.org/
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:49pm
  http://www.icr.org.
  
  Report this comment
wilbstal
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:36am
when Jesus comes what will you all say then?????

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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:50am
  Go back to outer space, we’re all good down here…
  
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- soybomb315_II
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:55am
  it is up to individuals – not the “collective” (public school)
  
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- Listen_then_think
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:39am
  The problem with your statement soybomb is that the liberals, gays, progressives, muslims and atheists are busy busy preaching away IN THE SCHOOLS so what is good for the goose is good for the gander, hypocrite.
  
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- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:37am
  I would walk up to him and ask him, “How wrong did the Christians get your teachings?”
  
  Something people like you refuse to accept is that Jesus, if he really did exist, spoke Aramaic. A long dead language. The bible we all know today was put together approx 200 years AFTER he died. It has been edited and translated MANY times. I speak fluent Spanish and English and even today we get translations between these two widely spoken languages wrong all the time. what you are being taught in the modern bible is likely NOT QUITE what Jesus taught. Again, assuming he ever existed.
  
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- kywillie
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:42am
  Oh right because Jesus had so much to say about evolution. I think Jesus would say why are you teaching this nonsense in science class. If you want to teach creationism teach it at home and let the kid decide but maybe we should keep science in the science class.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:08pm
  If Jesus really “is” who He claims to be, then it is not unreasonable to expect that He actually wants us to have the Bible, and it really is the “Word of God.”
  
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emh1701
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:36am
I have no problem with people teaching religion in a philosophy class, or even in the context of religious influence on literature or historical events. However, this was a science class, and science is not religion. Students do not attend a science class to learn about religious beliefs; they attend it to learn about scientific facts. This was also in a public school, not a Christian private school. So yeah, this crossed a line. If he wants to teach creationism, he is allowed to teach it in private schools.

Also, if he really did brand a student, that definitely isn’t legal. So yeah, I think this person was in the wrong job. Perhaps he needs to become a Christian pastor instead.

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- termyt
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:57am
  So if they can only teach science facts does that mean they should not be allowed to teach evolution, either? That has not been proven.
  
  Only teaching facts means we are pretty much limited to Newtonian Physics, even though we know Newtonian Physics is incomplete, but Einstein’s Relativity is also still a theory.
  
  Don’t get me wrong, I’m not fan of the “Intelligent Design” theory they cobbled together to try to make creationism seem more sciency. But I am an advocate of teaching what is out there, only calling a theory a theory and a law a law.
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:09am
  Only intelligent design is a “theory” based on your definition. Again, you do not understand what a “scientific theory” is.
  
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- kywillie
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:47am
  Thank you, Theory does not translate into “Guess” A scientific theory has evidence to it, it just isn’t complete and leaves it open to new evidence. For instance there is both a law of gravity – we know stuff falls to the ground, and the theory of gravity – we are not 100% sure why things attract to each other. I’m guessing the answer isn’t jesus pushes things together.
  
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- termyt
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:02pm
  The doors of perception are apparently closed.
  
  If only you could teach us all of your splendid knowledge so the rest of us weren’t forced to stumble around in the dark.
  
  Evidence is not proof. Theories remain theories because they can not be verified. If there were no evidence at all, we wouldn’t even be discussing it.
  
  Science has become as much a religion as Christianity in our culture. If ideas are excluded simply because they don’t fit a narrative then the “science” is just another religious dogma.
  
  When evolution is taught as fact (should I say law?) even though it has not passed the scientific muster to be called a law, it crosses that line. Evolution is a fine theory with a lot of evidence (far better than what has been cobbled together for intelligent design, so hopefully you do not misunderstand me), but no proof. It should be taught, but as a theory.
  
  If I am so far removed from understanding, please educate me. If evolution is more than theory, please provide the evidence of cross-species evolution so we can put to bed these troublesome teachers that dare imply otherwise.
  
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termyt
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:35am
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Freshwater’s not well loved in Mount Vernon and he might have not had the difficulties he’s had if he handled himself better. He’s alienated the parents, his fellow teachers, and the school administration by his shenanigans over the years. There was more to his firing than just the religion arguments. (I know folks in the Mount Vernon school system.)

The religion angle is how they justified getting rid of him. Of course, being a Christian and referencing it in discussions should never be grounds for termination since he did not teach religion nor punish students who refused or denied it. I hope the Ohio State Supreme Court upholds that.

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wilbstal
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:34am
all sides of every issue must be put forward so folks can decide not a supperior as they suggest, who are these supperiors?? Liberals. progressives, gays, Democrats,Communists.repubs. Obama DUH???

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wilbstal
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:31am
what ever happened to freedom of religion?/ looks like we need to get more Guns to protect this Right also. War is comming

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- soybomb315_II
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:56am
  what ever happened to a school being able to fire someone who breaks their rules?
  
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- searcher619
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:19am
  Freedom of religion is not the right to teach RELIGION in a SCIENCE class. You are free to practice your religion. You as a teacher are NOT free to try and indoctrinate young impressionable minds w/o the consent of their parents. You want your child to receive a religious education then enroll them in a religious private school. I know many of them help parents of kids who can’t otherwise afford the tuition to afford it. I would be pissed if my little girl was being taught religion in what is supposed to be a SCIENCE class. Have a theology class and tech our kids about ALL the major religions. Just don’t teach religion in lessons that are not supposed to be religious in nature. How can you NOT understand that?
  
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HOOT_OWL
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:25am
How someone who believes so STRONG about the second amendment ,
can have such a Skewed view on ‘freedom OF religion‘ is beyond me.

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bigbear_awake
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:21am
anything but the Christian Bible is great Prayers for hm and my God put his Hand on the Ohio Supreme Court

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HOOT_OWL
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:08am
Branding a student. What the heck was he thinking.?

But ,you know they wouldn’t have said a damn thing if this guy was just another secular teacher.
Or say” He just used poor judgment “. hand slap.

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RealLiibertarian
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:01am
Scinece class should be for the dissemination of provable facts only. Facts backed up with numbers and multiple sources. Anything else is opinion and has no place in science class. Schools, in general, should be teaching only raw facts and not attempting to spin them into any endorsement of any particular viewpoint. Teach the kids to think, to question everything, and to ignore the engineering of the teachers, be they secular, religious, patriotic, or anything else. Teachers, both public and homeschool, need to leave their opinions at the door and let the kids think and decide for themselves.

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- termyt
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:25am
  Well, I agree with your principle, but science is all about theory. If we teach only the proven laws of science, it’s going to be more of a history lesson than a science one. I think all we want to avoid is the teaching of the current, prevalent theories as though they were already proven facts.
  
  That’s what they did when they persecuted Galileo and it’s what evolutionists are doing now.
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:34am
  @Term
  
  You don’t understand what a scientific theory is.
  
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- Sensible_Centrist_Democrat
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 3:54pm
  @Term
  I think everyone agrees with you that science should look at all scientific angles of theoretical explanations of phenomenon. However, the key word is “scientific”. A theory which goes against evolution can be discussed if it has scientific backing.
  Also, you need to understand how few things become “laws” in science. Evolution needs to be taught in an honest way. It is by far the best theoretical explanation of the origin and history of life/species. It has tons of evidence supporting its views. It should be analyzed/critiqued based on the scientific method. It should not be viewed as a perfect law that is complete and beyond discussion.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:40pm
  Creation “Science” doubters, look here. http://www.icr.org/
  
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john vincent
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:01am
The court said Freshwater can argue it is unconstitutional to fire someone without clear guidance on what teaching materials or methods are acceptable. Freshwater also can argue it is unconstitutional to fire someone over the mere presence of a religious text such as the Bible in a classroom-

-’Without clear guidance..’ Seems the teacher has a case. If there is no law against his method, it seems disingenuous to rid him of a non-offense’

-’the mere presence of a bible in th eclassroom.’ Yes, scary, the book might jump up and strangle kids, or make them turn into turnips!

Now its time to defend the inevitable comments about ;’church and state’ and heres the correct question that is never asked: In a teaching environment, WHAT CHURCH is represented when a teacher puts forth the idea of a world created by God?????

This is a fair question, and if the naysayer attempt to ‘lawyerly’ dismiss this as lunacy with an answer that requires mental gymnastics, I’ll repeat: ‘What CHURCH is represented when a teacher puts forth the notion of a world created by God???

Seems the teacher here is not unreasonable, and true learning after all is examining ALL the evidence, no?

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soybomb315_II
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:57am
Are you cool with a muslim teacher bringing the koran to class and teaching about Mohammed?

Are you cool with a mormon teacher bringing the book of mormon to class and teaching about life after death?

Government schools should not teach theology unless it is a class specifically designed as such (“religion class”). Ultimately, it is a state issue and each state should be able to decide. Which means that if you support this guy then you are going against the 10th amendment

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- meltzen
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:44am
  the bible is the oldest history book out there……its is based on historical people and places… he wasnt preaching to them….to get save and turn your life around…only truth can turn someones life around…the book of mormon is not truth,,,,and book of koran is not truth….
  
  should teach kids theories as facts…and dismiss anything historical and truth because it makes people uncomfortable….i understand what your saying…but book of mormon and koran is no way comparable to the bible.
  
  would you teach kids the we come from apes as fact…when we have never witness the transformation of the species….
  should we teach kids that we are no different than an animal or a tree..then we dont understand why kids are committing suicide and killing each …what difference does it make when we are just like any other animal, rock or tree….We are different, life is valuable, we have flesh, spirit and soul.
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:54am
  @meltzen
  
  You don’t need to say anything else after…”the bible is the oldest history book”…do some research…that is just not true.
  
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- soybomb315_II
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:54am
  Actually, the torah is older than our bible
  
  But regarding your comparison of the TRUTH of the bible versus book of mormon versus koran…..That is your opinion – not fact. Are you so narcisistic that whatever you think must be truth? It is fine to have faith but you must understand that people who believe differently are not to be dismissed as crazy. There are a billion muslims who think exactly like you do except with the koran
  
  In a government school, you either have to teach ALL religions or none at all. There was a time in this country when 95% of the people called themselves christian – that is no longer the case and you should not use government to push your agenda. Christianity is also my agenda but the last thing we need is government (public school) getting their hands all over it.
  
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- texastommy
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:21am
  Uh, …. Soybomb, the Torah is the first five books of the bible.
  
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- carbonyes
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 12:20pm
  SOYBOMB, still have your head in your hind end, don’t you. In the first place, the first amendment is about freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
  Secondly, the separation of church and state is not in the Constitution, nor is rightly derived or interpreted by the misrepresentation of Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists.
  Thirdly, Christianity is not a religion. It is a way of life. The only way that leads to Truth and salvation. Religion puts people in bondage. Christianity sets man, and woman, free.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:42pm
  CARBON hear hear!
  
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BecksRedneck
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:52am
Evolution and Creationism are both Science.

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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:16am
  Creationism does not supply testable hypothesis. It is in no way a science.
  
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- Notfromapes
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 2:18pm
  Creation scientists and evolution scientists go to the same schools, have the same degrees, conduct the same tests, and get the same results. The only difference is how the results are interpreted. Evolutionists use secular humanism as the bases for their interpretations and creationists use the word of God to form their interpretations. Evolution is not the science that sends man to the moon. Most of evolution is not observable, testable, and repeatable. Creationists for the most part do not want creation taught in schools but do want students to be able to question the many problems with evolution.
  Where did the universe’s original matter come from?
  How did life begin?
  Where are all the supposed transitional fossils between the Precambrian and Cambrian periods?
  Comets have about a 30,000 year life, why do we still have comets?
  Where did the trillions of bits of information come from that makes up DNA?
  These are valid questions that evolutionists have theories for but cannot observe, test and repeat.
  If we are going to debate we should not reduce the debate to name calling. A Christian astrophysicist
  is still an astrophysicist.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:48pm
  Wrong. http://www.icr.org/
  
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- Verceofreason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 11:49am
  Just because you post something doesn’t make it a fact or true.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:49pm
  It does if it is a fact.
  
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walnutportconservative
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:49am
The corrective action will be the dismisal of H.R. represents. He will probably win his case, he will be reinstated, the boy will be tatooed as the lier he is, and the citizens will pay for the mistakes of the idiots on the board. Nothing new here folks…. just the way we do government education… AND YOU DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE.

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Gonzo
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:43am
Liberals want to replace the Gospel with science, completely ignoring the fact that the preeminent ‘scientists’ of their day believed the Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the Earth. The big bang theory and evolution take just as much “faith” to believe in as intelligent design and creationism.

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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:47am
  “‘scientists’ of their day believed the Earth was flat”
  
  This is essentially a myth.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
  
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- SacredHonor1776
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:51am
  Also you can blame Washington Irving for spreading the Flat earth myth. In his tale he made Christians look like ignorant buffoons, and Columbus the man of ‘science’ for believing in a spherical world. Washington Irving himself was an Atheist, IIRC, and didn’t much like Christians.
  
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- ScienceGirl
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:54am
  Scientists change their opinions when they don’t agree with the known facts. Religion keeps believing the same thing for thousands of years despite the facts.
  
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- Gonzo
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:02am
  …and it’s proven right time and time again.
  
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- soybomb315_II
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:22am
  Gonzo
  
  And “conservatives” want to replace school with sunday school. Why isnt the conservative position freedom – which means you are free to take your kid to church and teach them about religion at home – but dont use force (government school) to teach other kids about your religion
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 8:37am
  @Gonzo
  
  Yeah and we should teach alchemy during chemistry class and astrology during cosmology. Get a grip.
  
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- The_Doors_Of_Perception
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 9:07am
  @gonzo
  
  Oh and to your ” ….proven right again and again” …try and name one thing that had a scientific explanation but now has a religous/supernatural one? Can’t can you? Now think of something that had a religious/supernatural explanation but now has a scientific explanation. So many of them…..huh?
  
  So I assume when you said proven right again and again, you were obviously referring to science. Thanks!
  
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- Calm Voice of Reason
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 10:43am
  Gonzo, science was the tool we used to understand why those ideas were wrong. Science is not an authority, neither are scientists. It does not matter at all what a scientist says or believes, what matters are the things we can understand about the world using science. We have often been wrong, but the only way we got to the right answer was by applying scientific method appropriately.
  
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- carbonyes
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 12:06pm
  THE_Doors_OF_PERCEPTION
  Your handle is a misnomer, for you can neither see, perceive nor understand, which means you know not the Truth.
  
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- DeavonReye
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 12:17pm
  Doors . . . for the win.
  
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- theotherberean
  Posted on February 27, 2013 at 6:46pm
  How about a little “Creation Science?” http://www.icr.org/
  
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Free_Thought
Posted on February 27, 2013 at 7:32am
Creationism should be taught in sunday school or religious schools. And in “science” class no less.

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