Activists Claim Anti-Gay Sentiments Permeate Mormonism
- Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:22pm by
Jonathon M. Seidl
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SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Ben Jarvis has heard a lot of coming out stories.
For the past 15 years, the southern California-based urban planner has been answering a hotline number for Mormons struggling with their sexual identity. Jarvis, a volunteer for Affirmation, a support group for lesbian, gay, bixsexual and transgender Mormons, estimates he’s talked to as many as 3,000 people.
Many of them are “deathly afraid,” their secret will be discovered by friends, family, or members of their Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints congregations, he said.
In a faith where the traditional family is deeply woven into theology and where there is seemingly no line between religion and culture, the potential losses for LGBT Mormons who come out can be devastating, Jarvis and others say.
“There are so many great things about Mormon culture and the LDS church, but it is not a safe place for gay and lesbian people,” said Jarvis, 42, a seventh-generation Mormon who came out in 1993 and has since left the church.
Some gay rights activists say the timing and content of an Oct. 3 sermon by Elder Boyd K. Packer, the second-highest ranking church leader, that denounced homosexual attraction as unnatural and immoral only exacerbated the troubled relationship. Packer suggested gays could change their orientation with enough faith.
His remarks came in the wake of the national furor over a Rutgers University freshman jumping to his death off New York’s George Washington Bridge after his roommate secretly filmed him during a “sexual encounter” in his dorm room and posted it live on the Internet.
The student was not Mormon, but Utah’s gay rights activists, some with roots in Mormonism, were quick to draw a connection to their own situation. They say the painful isolation that some LGBT individuals experience can lead to suicide. Anecdotes about the suicides of gay Mormons from Affirmation’s website, posts on the PrideinUtah blog and other sites seem to support the contention.
“It’s an enormous problem, especially in Utah,”said Eric Ethington, who runs the PrideinUtah blog.
Mormon church officials take issue with the characterizations made by gay rights activists.
“It is disappointing when some try to use an emotional issue such as suicide to misrepresent the role of the church in the lives of its members,” said Mormon church spokesperson Kim Farah, in response to Ethington.
“The causes of suicide are many and complex and touch many levels of society. No one understands what ultimately leads someone to take this action but all can agree that even one loss of life is a tragedy.”
Ethington led some 4,500 black-clad activists in a silent protest of Packer‘s sermon outside the church’s downtown Salt Lake City headquarters.
The Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest gay civil rights organization, lobbied the church for a retraction of what it called inaccurate and hurtful remarks in a petition signed by 150,000 of its members and supporters. Some critics said Packer’s words were dangerous in light of at least four known September suicides by young men across the country, including the New York case, following reported incidents of anti-gay bullying.
In a rare response, church leaders called the deaths tragic and said the faith joins others “in unreserved condemnation of acts of cruelty, or attempts to belittle or mock any group or individual that is different.”
Speaking on behalf of church leaders, spokesman Michael Otterson also said “each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully reconsider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second great commandment — to love one another.”
Like many faiths, Mormonism teaches that any sex outside of marriage is a sin and the church defines marriage as only being between a man and a woman. Families are considered part of God’s plan, under church doctrine, and are eternal institutions that extend int00 the afterlife.
In decades past, church leaders had preached that homosexual feelings were a sin and sometimes ordered up prescriptions of vigilant prayer, marriage or reparative therapy to resist or reverse those feelings.
The rhetoric has softened since the 1990s, although the church has remained politically active in campaigns to prevent legalizing gay marriage in California and elsewhere. The church now differentiates between feelings and actions, with disciplinary action or excommunication limited to those engaging in homosexual relationships.
Celibate gays can remain active in church callings and retain full membership, including performing sacred Mormon rites in church temples. Church leaders have counseled the faithful followers to reach out to gay Mormons with compassion and love.
“Their struggle is our struggle,” said Otterson.
Some activists have expressed cautious appreciation for the church’s statement. Others say it does little to ease the sting of Packer’s words.
“We’ve all been to so many funerals. If they’re serious about stopping the rash of suicides so prevalent within their religion, they need to be taking a more active stance against preventing that harm,” Ethington said.
But suicide is far from being “just a Mormon issue,” said Jim Struve, a Salt Lake City-based therapist and part of the LGBT therapists guild. Struve spent most of his 34 years as a therapist in Atlanta and said he sees strong similarities between the experiences of LGBT Mormons with those from any number of other faiths.
“I think part of what it tends to be is that when you have more rigid, doctrinaire affiliations, that rigidity leaves parents and children locked into few options,” said Struve.
Many members of conservative religions get much of their parenting guidance from faith leaders, Struve said.
“For LDS youth, it’s not just losing your faith, it’s losing a cultural connection, which can seem more desperate,” he said. “When you read the obituaries and see those young faces, you would never know which were accidental deaths and which were suicides, because there’s no mention of it. I’m always left wondering.”
Although there’s no hard data directly linking faith and suicide, a survey by the Public Religion Research Institute conducted with the Religion News Service found that 65 percent of 1,010 respondents believe messages from the pulpits of American churches contribute.
The survey, conducted Oct. 14-17, has margin of error of 3 percentage points. Survey data posted on the institute website did not specify denominations, nor indicate whether Mormons were polled.
The Massachusetts based Suicide Prevention Resource Center cites suicide as the leading cause of death for LBGT youth. Utah’s suicide rates — 34.5 suicide deaths for every 100,000 persons in 2008 — are among the highest in the nation, particularly among young men between the ages of 18 and 24.
An ongoing, first-of-its-kind, family acceptance study by San Francisco State University researcher Caitlin Ryan has found LGBT youth are eight times more likely to attempt suicide if they experience rejection from their parents, including being excluded from family activities, expressions of shame, keeping a child’s sexual orientation secret or engaging in verbal or physical abuse.
The study, which includes families of all faiths, has also found that family religious acceptance or rejection also has a profound outcome on an LGBT youth’s mental well being and safety.
Among the Latter-day Saint families included in the study, Ryan said many parents report believing they must choose between the church and supporting their children. Ryan, who has worked extensively with Family Fellowship, a support group for the families of gay Mormons, sees the perception as a false choice.
“I see the faith as a strength,” she said. “Their deep values are a strength that enables them to provide for their children, to work hard to get them education, to care for them and nurture them, so there’s a lot to build on there.”
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Comments (241)
dmacfadyn
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:31pmIt’s NOT just Utah. They (queers) are a disgrace.
I think that about covers it.
Report Post »where is JG
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:00pmamen from utah. Snowed here last night. bring on the pow! Bird is the WORD!
Report Post »Progressivelyworse
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:27pmGay is not a right, its a lifestyle. Gays actually have greater power than a non-gay…called hate crimes. All violent crimes are hate crimes. How is that equal?
Report Post »Jezreel
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:25pmThe Mormon religeon is all messed up and is blasphemous anyhow. It don’t matter if they allow gays. I don‘t care just like I don’t care if the Roman Catholic denominations and other denominations appoint female bishops. After all, the title of bishop and the office of bishop was entirely added by man in the bible and not in the original transcripts that were written by the apostles etc. Also, Matthew 28:19 was added in by Constantine. The apostles all baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. So, when any denomination does something that is not authentic, I don’t care because God has HIS church and HIS people which is the temple of God. His true church is “relational” It is NOT institutional.
Report Post »Benji
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:43pmThe Matthew 28:19 issue has to do with the Trinity vs. the name of Jesus. There’s no doubt that Jesus said that we are supposed to go to all nations and baptise people according to Matthew 28:19. Rather, the original text said “in my (Jesus) name“ and the early Church changed it to ”Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”.
You are right, that being a follower of Christ is relational. The Church is the Bride of Christ – not institutionally, however as a whole we are supposed to meet corporately and be visible to the world. If that means a church building, then great! If that means a home church, then great!
Report Post »GunDoctor
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:10pmSo you really want to go straight to, the LDS faith is blasphemous and not give your reasoning? That tells me a lot about the type of person you are. I don‘t care what religion it is you don’t run down a persons faith. After all we’re talking about a Christian faith…and you’re basically doing a drive by on Christian people without leaving your reasons for doing so. That’s classic cowardice.
Report Post »tmarends
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:38pmTitus 3:9 “Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time.”
Report Post »historypaper
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:23pm99% of America is Anti-Gay.
Report Post »NotInKansasAnymore
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:25pmWhere’d you get that from?
Link please?
D
Report Post »M31Sailor
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:25pmHe/She /It found the study in Foofey Franks library
Report Post »warmac9999
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:26pmYour number is probably off a bit. From the studies I have seen, homosexuals are about 3% of the population and lesbians about 2%. A recent study in the UK had the number at 1%. In Iran, the number is obviously 0% because anyone caught in a homosexual act is promptly dismissed from the earth.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 6:25pmIt’s more like 50%, with the anti-gay half being the older generation that will die off over time, leaving the country far more tolerant of gays.
Report Post »mommy5bears
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 2:12pmHEY ABC you say that the older generation is gonna die and that will leave a more tolerant generation. Well if it is true that being gay is gentic than if we just accept gays and lesbians and don‘t say anything sooner or later your genetic’s will be gone and the problem will not exist. Two of the same sex cannot reproduce, so therefore if they stop reproducing their genes will die out. Don’t worry I will make sure to teach my childern that GAY and LESBIAN behavior is a CHOICE and is WRONG and I am only 30.
Report Post »Progressivelyworse
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:21pmActivist claim….but the activists prove their bigotry.
Please provide the doctrine that prove their claims, otherwise its the people, not the religion that are intolerant.
Activist – There are many people who have seen lives destroyed or altered because of some homosexual deviant. Its is these people that you need to weed out amoungst yourselves. What you do in the privacy of your home is your business, and if you want to thrust it out into the open, then YOU need to take RESPONSIBILTY for the reaction YOU sunjected YOURSELVES to willingly.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 6:26pmExplain how. If they are devastated to learn that the person is gay, that is not enough. There were people devastated to learn that schools were being racially integrated…
Report Post »Progressivelyworse
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 1:15pmABC
Your response is very confusing and lacking a clear thought. People everywhere in America seem to be taking offense where there is none.
I can show you gay Sunday School Teachers, are they devastated? Are they shunned and banished? No. The devastation is a result of their open actions, and open discussion. I was in Houston in a area called Midtown, very gay, very swanky. I was with several liberal men one one which was gay. Everyone of us, that includes the gay man, was offended by a group of “Boiz” because they were talking loudly about private parts, parading around, eye-sexing us, and generally causing a scene. This is offensive regardless of sexual preferences. Period.
Quite frankly this gay movement has taken a close friend from me, my earliest and most dear friend.She got involved in this gay lunacy in SLC. Her facebook posts used to be about nice topics, and life in general. Now she is consumed with hatred, her posts are nothing but activism, and she stopped contact with me. Why? Because I am not Gay? Devastation works both ways buddy, and I never ever questioned her lifestyle or belittled her.
A Mormon walks into a room and nobody knows it unless they flaunt their Holy books and say what they are. A gay is no different, nobody is gonna know unless you wear the look, walk the walk, or speak the speak.
A black friend of mine was approached by a gay activist at school – “Hey sister, lets stick together. I know what it is like to be discriminated.” My friend gave this activist a shocking reply – “Listen. Noboady knows you are gay until you open your mouth. When I walk into the room there is no doubt that I am black. Don’t tell me you and I are alike and suffer the same, you should just shut your mouth and nobody will know.”
Report Post »free2bme1961
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:12pmOuch!
Report Post »Benji
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:09pmOk, how does one continue to call themselves a Mormon if the Mormon doctrine teaches that homosexuality is wrong? Wouldn’t that be like calling yourself a Buddhist but not believing in Nirvana, or calling yourself a Christian while professing a life of sexual promiscuity? I’m not equating the severity of these comparisons, but rather I think that someone would just leave the church rather than demand that the church change it’s views.
People who stay with a religion yet keep their own belief system are just creating their own religion and essentially elevating themselves to a “god” status. Because, they think that what they feel inside is right, and therefore must be followed, rather than submitting themselves to the teachings of the one True God. One outcome of being a Christian is understanding that we‘re sinful and that our flesh wants to continue in it’s sinful ways. So, we struggle every day to submit ourselves to what we know is true and right, not to what we just feel like doing.
The problem with Tolorance, is that it doesn’t allow for truth. I‘m supposed to tolerate someone else’s lifestyle, but they can be intolerant of my desire to speak the truth and uphold the teachings of Christ.
Report Post »NotInKansasAnymore
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:21pmWell said.
Just because society accepts a behavior, doesn’t man God does. I’m sure the parents of homosexuals love their children. They just don‘t love their children’s behavior.
BTW, I don‘t believe you can ’change’ your sexual preferences, but once again, there is Chastity, also available for people who can’t find marriage mates.
There comes a time when even the most debased have to look around and ask ‘What’s going on morally in this country?” Are people better off by living with each other for a year or two, then moving on? Is serial monogomy better than marriage? Is divorce because your wife is getting old better than that cute young chick that‘s dressed to the nine’s begging you on?
I know this isn’t part of the debate, but one has to wonder why men don‘t have the propensity to ’raise the flag’ as easily as they once did when they get into their fifties. And perhaps is a reason why older women…well, I won’t say it. Perhaps the coincidence that it happens at the same time tells us something.
Perhaps unbridled sexual activity and five hundred ways to do it trumps morality in this country. That may be why EXTREME Islam doesn’t like Western Culture.
AND I’M IN NO WAY TELLIING ANYONE WHAT TO DO. DO WHAT YOU WANT…I’M JUST THROWING THE THOUGHT OUT THERE.
D
Report Post »moriarty70
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:51pm@Benji
But someone could use that argument in the other direction as well. All sects of Chritianity that are not Catholic have done the same, and if you backtrack further, even Catholics are simply an evolution of Judaism. Jesus is only the son of God because someone said he was.
Basically everyone but the Jews are idolaters.
Report Post »kozski
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:53pm@moriarty70…..“evolution of Judaism”? Those words don’t even belong in the same sentence.
Report Post »“Jesus is only the son of God because someone said he was.” Someone? Jesus is the way the truth and the life. He is the son of God.
“Basically everyone but the Jews are idolaters” This debate has nothing to do with worshiping idols.
JDPickle
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:32pm@moriarty70
Report Post »Actually, not just someone said that Jesus was the Son of God. The Bible, which IS the Word of God says that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus said it too! That’s not just someone. He IS God.
NotInKansasAnymore
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:08pmI haven‘t even read this but I have to say isn’t it a denomination’s right to have the beliefs they hold? I mean, isn’t that what the argument was about the Mosque being built by the 9/11 site? Muslims in this country have the ‘right’ to hold their beliefs. As do Mormons, Jews, Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Atheists, Agnostics, and the list goes on.
Muslims don’t like homosexuals either. I don‘t see these ’gay’ people protesting against thier faith. I also don‘t see many Islamic believers ’coming out’ in droves.
This is for ABC: PLEASE READ CAREFULLY! The real issue isn’t homosexuality, it’s fornication.
Most Christian Religions have come to the conclusion that perhaps homosexuals are born homosexual. However, God’s Law (by which most Christian/Judeo religions take their laws ) state that fornication without the benefit of marriage is a sin. That means sex between two people, man and woman, who are unmarried is a sin, according to the Church. That means sex between two women is a sin. That means sex between two men is a sin. I don’t care how you mix it up, unmarried sex is a sin. According to the Church.
There is a word in the lexicon: Chastity.
If you are of Christian/Judeo religious leanings, you may know this in your ‘head’ but you, like all others, pick and choose because it is okay in today’s society. If ‘society’ accepts it, then it has to be okay with GOD. Nobody said it would be easy serving GOD, if you so choose to.
I have news for you – people who truly believe in GOD and HIS ways, (key word: TRUELY) will adhere by HIS LAW. If that means Chastity, then so be it. That is your ‘cross’ in life. (And I do NOT want to here about religious leaders engage in fornication) They, too, sin, IF YOU BELIEVE.
ABC – the question is: If you believe you are on earth to serve God and mankind, on earth to procreate through marriage, and believe in eternal life by virtue of faith, then despite your sexual preference, you adhere to Chastity. It’s not popular. Nor is it easy.
If not, you have the total FREEDOM in this country to denounce your Judeo/Christian faith and become of another opinion or faith, be that Atheist, Agnostic, Islam (they won’t accept you – they’ll kill you–perhaps not in this country) or whatever other spiritual freedom you wish to choose.
So, your question is moot because you‘re rights haven’t been damaged in any way. You are free to pick and choose, you are free to join a ‘Church’ that believes it’s okay for gays to participate in sexual activity. You can even fornicate freely in this country without fear of being beheaded or stoned. Everything in this country is pretty much acceptable.
Dorothy
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 6:24pmDorothy,
Thanks for the post. Obviously I do not agree with it for many reasons.
“The real issue isn’t homosexuality, it’s fornication. Most Christian Religions have come to the conclusion that perhaps homosexuals are born homosexual. However, God’s Law (by which most Christian/Judeo religions take their laws ) state that fornication without the benefit of marriage is a sin. That means sex between two people, man and woman, who are unmarried is a sin, according to the Church. That means sex between two women is a sin. That means sex between two men is a sin. I don’t care how you mix it up, unmarried sex is a sin. According to the Church. ”
But a great many gays want to marry, and most Churches including the Mormon Church will not let them. They would stop fornicating if the churches would let them. But the churches say it is wrong because the Bible says so, so they say no. But there is no harm that is empirically proven, but the churches have never cared about empirical proof. Show the harm or let them marry!
“There is a word in the lexicon: Chastity. If you are of Christian/Judeo religious leanings, you may know this in your ‘head’ but you, like all others, pick and choose because it is okay in today’s society. If ‘society’ accepts it, then it has to be okay with GOD. Nobody said it would be easy serving GOD, if you so choose to. ”
Religious fundamentalists also pick and choose. The Bible commands you to stone those that handle pork or pig’s skin on holy days, yet my fundamentalist friends cheer on Favre, Brady and Manning religiously. Also, some churches serve God but also allow homosexuals to enter their church without the requirement of chastity. Those churches are as legitimate as yours, so why are you so arrogant or confident that your view should control what this country’s laws are. The Mormon Church has gone so far as to write checks to campaign against gay marriage. What right do they have to tell others in other churches what to do?
“I have news for you – people who truly believe in GOD and HIS ways, (key word: TRUELY) will adhere by HIS LAW. If that means Chastity, then so be it. That is your ‘cross’ in life. (And I do NOT want to here about religious leaders engage in fornication) They, too, sin, IF YOU BELIEVE.”
There are many non-Christians and non-believers in this country who are not obligated to follow your personal ethics and religious beliefs. Why do you insist on limiting their right to express themselves sexually and lovingly as they see fit? Why do you insist on limiting their legal rights when they are not harming you or anyone else?
“ABC – the question is: If you believe you are on earth to serve God and mankind, on earth to procreate through marriage, and believe in eternal life by virtue of faith, then despite your sexual preference, you adhere to Chastity. It’s not popular. Nor is it easy.”
I don’t believe that, so I don’t see why I have to follow your rules. If I were gay, I’d be really mad at you for limiting my life to have it fit into your wishes, which are based upon religious myth rather than empirical evidence.
“If not, you have the total FREEDOM in this country to denounce your Judeo/Christian faith and become of another opinion or faith, be that Atheist, Agnostic, Islam (they won’t accept you – they’ll kill you–perhaps not in this country) or whatever other spiritual freedom you wish to choose. ”
Not true. The religious in this country are preventing gays from having the freedom to marry in a legal sense. Conservative Christians are anti-freedom on this issue as they clearly showed in California during the Prop 8 campaign.
“So, your question is moot because you‘re rights haven’t been damaged in any way. You are free to pick and choose, you are free to join a ‘Church’ that believes it’s okay for gays to participate in sexual activity. You can even fornicate freely in this country without fear of being beheaded or stoned. Everything in this country is pretty much acceptable.”
Not true. My friend is one of the leading trust lawyers in Los Angeles and she specializes in creating trusts for gay people. She told me that the costs are very significant and even after all the work, gays are still not treated under the law in the same way that heterosexual couples are–and this is in the state with the most preferential laws for gay couples. That you think that freedom from stoning for homosexual practices is freedom shows how little you know. There are many barriers to freedom for gays that you choose to ignore so you can sit on your high horse guilt free and hypocrisy free. What lies you spin.
Your group has actively prevented gays from marrying and then say it is the fact that they do not marry that makes their sexual unions a sin. That’s rich. You say that gays have the same freedoms as the rest of us, even though that is so far from true to be laughable. And you have failed to offer one instance of verifiable harm to justify the loss of freedom that you cause others to suffer. The injustice and hypocrisy and stupidity is breathtaking.
Report Post »todd45040
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:05pmWhat will gays and lesbians do as science increasingly proves that homosexuality IS a choice?
Report Post »warmac9999
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:24pmAll behavior is a choice. Gender and race are not a choice. Homosexuals can chose not to indulge their desires in the same way that a potential mass murderer can chose not to indulge his or her desires.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 6:11pmThey will continue to argue as they are doing now that their behavior harms no one and so they should have the same rights as anyone else. I’m still waiting for someone to show me empirical evidence of the harm that gays cause.
Report Post »Hmschlmom
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 11:56pm@ABC…harms no one, right…
Except by entering public school classrooms, under the guise of tolerance, and telling my children that our religious beliefs are backward, old fashioned, and wrong …because we believe that homosexual sex is a sin. (my oldest faced this many times in public high school)
Separation of church and state apparently only counts if you are a liberal, looking to keep religion OUT of the state. It never seems to flow in the opposite direction…Keeping the STATE out of religion…(teaching sexual norms and behaviors falls under morals and religion, crossing the line).
Anti bullying, I am totally cool with…zero tolerance for any intimidation and harassment. But that need not imply official approval to any harassed group. Unless they are singled out in an inappropriate way, that is… (having the bullying program focus on one group is inappropriate)
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 1:55am“…harms no one, right…Except by entering public school classrooms, under the guise of tolerance, and telling my children that our religious beliefs are backward, old fashioned, and wrong …because we believe that homosexual sex is a sin. (my oldest faced this many times in public high school)”
Hurting your feelings is not harm. Sorry, but you couldn’t sue for that, much less justify taking away other people’s rights for it. If your beliefs are viewed as backward and wrong by others, then they have every right to voice their opinion, although they have no right to take away your right to hold them or profess them in your church, which no one has done. You invent persecution that isn’t there.
“Separation of church and state apparently only counts if you are a liberal, looking to keep religion OUT of the state. It never seems to flow in the opposite direction…Keeping the STATE out of religion…(teaching sexual norms and behaviors falls under morals and religion, crossing the line).”
Calling out the FACTS that gays are being denied rights enjoyed by straight people is not an example of the state persecuting religion. The state actually allows you to make factually inaccurate statements in your church everyday. The state is not intervening in your religion, but limiting your religion’s influence to your church and not beyond. Your church paying for influencing an election about the rights of people in CA is not persecution of your religion, but your religion persecuting others outside your church. If you don’t understand that, then you understand little.
“Anti bullying, I am totally cool with…zero tolerance for any intimidation and harassment. But that need not imply official approval to any harassed group. Unless they are singled out in an inappropriate way, that is… (having the bullying program focus on one group is inappropriate)”
Those that fought racial integration of schools in the deep south in the 60′s also claimed that they were being harassed, but history rightly cleared the record. That will happen to your church, whose actions will not be judged well by history. You are not being harassed. Gays are being harassed. The crime stats in every state in the country show that gays are harassed at a much higher rate than Mormons or other Christians. You create a fantasy of persecution that doesn’t exist, all the while you are fighting to prevent gays from enjoying rights that every straight adult in this country takes for granted.
Report Post »Hmschlmom
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 8:08am@ABC
The STATE has no business giving it‘s OPINION on anyone’s religious beliefs, EVER. It crosses the church state line. If the flow of dialogue were going in the opposite direction, and the state were extolling the virtue of my religion over yours (whatever they are)…you would howl long and loud.
There is no justification AT ALL for the state violating my rights to raise my children with MY religious beliefs…NOT YOURS. That is MUCH more serious than your pandering comment about “Hurt feelings.” It is a back door proselytizing effort that has been allowed to go on for far too long, but people are waking up to it. Hence one reason for the rise in the homeschooling movement. One should not need to be wealthy enough to afford private school to keep the state out of our spiritual lives. Which extend far beyond Sunday morning, if they mean anything deeper to you than an “I’m okay, your okay, We’re all Okay, THREE CHEERS FOR GOD…” kind of worship.
And the constitution GUARANTEES ME the right to FREE EXERCISE thereof. Including the right to raise my children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord…whether you agree and approve or not. WITHOUT STATE INTERFERENCE…
Little bit more meaningful than just some hurt feelings. Passing down beliefs, practices and a CULTURE to the next generation. Or is that only allowed to mean something if I am a MINORITY?
Report Post »Hmschlmom
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 8:22am@ABC
“You are not being harassed”
Funny..I could swear that I had to go to the school, SEVERAL TIMES, about their refusal to allow a Bible club (despite the ACLU even saying they cannot do that). Yet the Gay/straight alliance club sailed right on through…
I also seem to recall having to have a discussion about a role playing “Anti bullying” group…school sponsored, which portraied the big bad ugly Christian picking on everyone else. My kid was MORTIFIED (let’s see them do that to a Muslim…or any other group!)
I call that harassment!
How about the boyscout leader’s homosexual kid, who went off to camp, giving graphic descriptions to the other boys about what it was like to have intimate relations with a boy? And then told my kid…Good luck complaining…my Dad’s the scoutmaster!
Have we reached harassment yet? I think so!
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on October 27, 2010 at 11:28amABC – The difference between the gospel and your argument is that the scriptures are quite CLEAR on homosexuality, calling it ‘abomination’ (so abominable that Lot was willing to let the men at his door take his daughters over them raping his sons, so grievous a sin such as it is) which means in and of itself it is a damning sin to one’s spirit by virtue of it destroying within, the family unit which needs BOTH a father and a mother in it to flourish (and continue the seed) and have the BEST chance of succeeding and continuing on with MORALS to hopefully bless future generations. It also harms when it creeps into politics and subsequently schools to FORCE the belief on young impressionable minds, which is indoctrination against the wishes of those children’s parents (I guess you think being homosexual gives you the right to raise others people’s children). You act as if you are the only one to have the right to CHOOSE and I got news for you, science has in NO WAY backed homosexuality with any facts, just conjecture, shots in the dark, and opinions from ‘fringe’ scientists with political agendas (they tried DNA: failed, they tried the ‘if you’re left-handed’: failed). Everyone has the right in this country to believe what you want, there is no church in this country forcing anyone to be a christian, it’s an open invitation started by the desire of a person to search and find a greater truth than man alone can provide. I hope that your closed-mindedness to continue to search for truth will lift from your mind, if you were sincere within yourself you would know that you have closed your mind to opposition to your belief, and you don’t even have anything concrete to draw from for that belief nor examples of history to draw a clear, concise, ‘informed with all the real facts’ decision. And I‘m sorry if the more part of the people who have strength in numbers offends you because they’re able to effectively block you and your likes political movement with the same rights to assemble you have so their voices can be heard. You obviously think that your agenda is the only one with a right to assemble huh?. There is a scenario, basic in it’s message, goes like this: How can you be born gay from a father and a mother, if homosexuality was part of nature then an island of homosexuals would flourish, but the truth is that they could never be without the UNION between a man and a woman which is NATURE and could never continue if planted after the fact from that union more than one generation, because they would ALL die and that ‘island paradise’ that you think it would be would CEASE to be. The Lord said it was against nature and nothing has ever been so simple and plain in it’s evident truth.
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:05pmIt is a sorrowful climate we live in with so many groups giving their opinions about things, and then searching, bruised souls looking for their identity falling prey to the destructive messages they espouse. The gospel has never condoned homosexuality, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their wickedness in accepting homosexuality as a societal norm. Those groups who preach this same message are actually the purveyors of the suicide up rise in the homosexual community. They tell them that they are born that way, that it’s in the DNA, that it’s just a different expression of love, etc. and when these youths find that in the real world it just isn’t so they feel alone, betrayed, and despondent to life leading to deeper depression and sadly suicide because they can’t deal with the confusion or pain. Love thy brother as thyself, if he is in error do not put him down for it just give your viewpoint of your faith, why you believe as you do (scriptural references) and DO NOT judge him, pray for him/ her and remember as a christian this is one of your family (in the eternal order of things) that is under great deception from one of the most damning sins by virtue of decree by God and by all these aforementioned emotional, psychological problems that arise from it.
Report Post »Mithra
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 2:26amAnd remember that Lot offered his daughters to the crowd in lieu of the crowd having their way with his male guest. Such a giving man! No wonder the daughters got Lot drunk and had him father their children. Fair is fair right? And this is your moral guide?
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on October 27, 2010 at 11:31am@Mithra – See my comment below to ABC. You may find that you should understand scripture before you cite it.
Report Post »leagle-beagle
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:00pmMormons….the last acceptable target of bigotry!
Report Post »Just Common Sense
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:49pmExactly. The same point is made here in this piece called “America’s Last Acceptable Prejudice”:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=15056809969#!/group.php?gid=15056809969&v=info
Report Post »conservativeme
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:00pmWhat’s wrong with people? It does not matter what we (mankind) think on the issue. It’s what GOD thinks and has commanded. It’s not up to us. We believe and stand up for what He tells us – either way! Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Read what the people WERE and what it is said they came out of! It’s plain folks!
Report Post »kozski
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:21pmThanks so much! For those that don’t have it handy:
Report Post »Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Mithra
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 2:18amOne day we will find out what god really thinks, and Baal will not be happy.
Report Post »Masamune
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:56pmI just don’t understand why they seem to be targeting only the Mormons recently (Yes, I am one.) Plenty of other churches have condemned homosexuality as well, but they don’t get near the amount of publicity as we do. It reminds me a lot of Proposition 8 when the Church asked everyone to vote against it. They might as well accept that we consider it a sin, because that doctrine won’t be changing anytime soon.
Report Post »A Extremist
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:11pmFunny that the founders of the Mormon faith were jailed and murdered by intolerant mobs who did not accept their beliefs. Now the same religion that suffered under intolerance is the most intolerant. I will never figure that one out.
I guess it was OK for the mobs to chase them out since their religion was a “choice”.
Report Post »Masamune
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 7:01pmIntolerant? Your argument makes no sense. We don’t force anyone to adhere to our beliefs or teachings and they are free to leave the Church if they disagree with them. Never once since it’s organization has the Church leadership ever called for physical violence or war on another group for being different (unlike many other religions at different points in their history). The extermination order in Missouri made it legal to kill Mormons forcing us to leave the state and flee to Utah (which was then currently part of Mexico, oh the irony). Do you honestly think that after having been killed and slaughtered for our beliefs over a hundred years ago that we would go back on them now? The problems with suicide are not in any way limited to the LDS Church, it’s an issue that many faiths have. The fact that we hold true to our doctrine when other churches are losing theirs does not make us intolerant, we simply believe in holding true to our principles which is why we are targeted so often by the media.
Report Post »sWampy
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:56pmAnti gay sentiments permeate every civilized society through out time, it’s one of the first sign of a civilization advancing, along with learning to control fire.
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:20pmSurely you don’t believe that. There were many ancient cultures that either tolerated or embraced homosexuals. You have heard of Alexander the Great haven’t you?
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:52pmActually, the opposite appears to be true. Tolerance of gays was at its height during the highest point of Athenian and Roman culture, as well as during the Renaissance. It was at its lowest during the Dark Ages and the Spanish Inquisition. This is also true if you study Islamic or Chinese history. Periods with the greatest freedom have the greatest tolerance of gays.
Report Post »bseger
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:55pmHaving been actively gay, years ago I made a choice. I chose not to act on my homosexual desires and re-directed my love towards a wife and family. I have never regretted that choice. It is not easy but there is a choice and there is success. I have figured out why I have that weakness and my choices have made me stronger in my beliefs in God and the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ.
Report Post »APEXIdaho
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:48pmThis is a link to an article that explains how the church feels and treats the situation.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2784ba12dc825110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:46pmWhat will churches do as science increasingly proves that homosexuality is not a choice? How can something that is not a choice become a moral question?
Report Post »aarastas
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:08pmWhat science?
Report Post »leagle-beagle
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:08pmI agree that same-sex attraction may have a biological determination….however, committing homosexual acts is a choice…just as much as committing heterosexual acts is a choice. Just because science finds a biological factor (or cause) of the desire, that does not mean God can or will condemn the action.
Report Post »legaleagle
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:10pmShow me the science, then we’ll talk.
Report Post »Benji
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:22pmABC, do you think that child molestation is a choice? I’m not equating the sevarity of this to homosexuality, but there are some people who believe that man/child sexuality is normal and okay. So, with your line of logic, they can just say – “Eventually, science will show everyone that we’re born this way.”
Will you give them a pass? Probably not, because it’s sick! See, that’s the problem with moral relativism – we all just continue further down the rabbit hole because if you can justify homosexuality as natural, then other things can be natural as well – prostitution, abortion, child infantiside, euthanasia, beastiality, murder via servival of the fittest, etc. If truth is just the emotion that we feel, then we’d all be screwed! Truth must come from a constant, not a variable – and that constant is God.
I realize that you’ll never even consider my statement as reasonalbe, and you’ll probably have some snappy comeback or bigoted statement. Either way, I‘m not here to tell homosexuals that they’re wrong – Christ already did that. However, it’s just a sin that needs to be dealt with, just like lying, stealing, lust, murder, pride, and jealousy. Christ said that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That includes me and you. But, once you’re made aware of the sin in your life, you are then called to get rid of it and live a holy life – no matter how difficult it might be.
Report Post »TallTexasTea
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:30pmScience has been doing tests trying to find a “gay gene” for over 50 years now. And time and time again, the only thing proven is that is DOES NOT EXIST! Wake up ABC. Homosexuality is nothing but a fetish.
Report Post »jds7171
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:45pmAccording to your style of thinking ABC. Scientists have found a fat gene. They have actually found around 3. So is being extremely fat wrong? What if they find a gene that causes people to be pedophiles. Are we going to allow them to be set free and not thrown in jail anymore because its in their genes and not a choice for them.
Report Post »Docroxall
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:51pmIgnorant argument that ignores the FACTS that science has proven that men are basically founded on the desire to impregnate as many women as possible before they die…so if infidelity is in my DNA…are you saying it isn’t a moral choice for me to stay true to my wife of 26 years? You are a just plain wrong with that line of argument.
Report Post »1776Federalist
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:09pmJust like the “facts” about global warming are “indisputable” too. There are no scientific facts that prove a person has to be gay. That has been shown to be a false claim. Would we as parents raise our children to behave in ways we believe to be incorrect, or would we do all we can to help them be the best they can be? After that they still have a choice to act for themselves. Our Father in Heaven likewise would not force us to be unable to live righteously. We may be tempted, and have strong temptations at that, towards homosexuality, alcoholism, thievery, adultery, etc., but we have the ability to seek God’s help to avoid falling to those temptations. Love the sinner, and hate the sin is not going against God’s teachings, it is living them.
Report Post »SuperSparky
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:23pm“Science” attempting to “prove” something will always find a way to claim their sole purpose for their actions. In other words, if you approach a problem with an answer already in your head and attempt to toss in ingredients until it resembles your “goal” doesn’t make it scientific.
The simple idea that there is an aspect of humanity that eliminates choice from birth is completely contrary to man’s purpose. Man is given weaknesses to overcome, but is never given anything that forces them to sin. What causes a sexual curiosity into sexual deviance is simply the dwelling upon it until it changes you. Ask anyone that has viewed pornography. Many get to a point viewing that filth until it is all that excites them. The same goes for homosexual deviance. You may have curiosity about it, but if you dwell on it, expose yourself to the behavior, and worse, gay pornography, then you are changing your brain’s chemistry to become gay. It’s those that dwell on lustful thoughts and actions that usually end up doing such things.
The sexual drive is extremely strong, and since it affects much of the brain, it can be manipulated. It’s why churches warn against porn and even observing deviant behavior. The brain gets addicted to pheromones and hormones, especially if they are released in sexual activity. It craves more and more. The brain becomes numb to the shock of it and just wants the high. Like a drug, you tend to want more and more and even try to find more “exciting” things to make the high and resulting climax more and more powerful.
This is why God wants marriage and it be man and woman. You aren’t just supposed to multiply and replenish the earth, but are supposed to cleave only to your spouse. In other words, you become “addicted” to the excitement and feelings that are brought on by that person only. That helps keep the family together. Dwelling on someone else defeats the purpose of marriage and God’s purpose. It becomes a selfish purpose merely for your own gratification.
Just because you found a fascinating new way to get off, doesn’t make it right. It also doesn’t mean it is spiritually healthy for you.
Those stating children are “born gay” are liars and deceivers. Exposure to the lifestyle and such are what create homosexuals. Schools “teaching” sexual behavior are partly to blame for this. It’s where curiosity turns to deviance. Parents leaving their children to schools to teach things with such a powerful drive are also to blame.
This is why the LDS church urges those with homosexual curiosity to steer clear of exposure to the lifestyle, and especially pornography.
Nevertheless, you are free to make your own choices. Living the homosexual lifestyle means you can no longer be a member of the church is your choice to make, and you know it ahead of time.
What is a lie is the homosexual crowd tries to claim such things are “normal” or “genetic”. They aren’t, they are just like any other group doing wrong. “Come and be part of our gang” is merely what is happening. The suicide I would say is because of these lies put forth by the homosexual community.
God says sex outside of a man and woman marriage is a sin. The same goes for fornication, and homosexuality. One can either repent or get excommunicated. Why excommunication? It’s simple, if you don’t agree to live by the standards God sets down, then why be a member of his church?
I am LDS/Mormon, you make promises at baptism and in the Temple. If you do not want to keep those promises, then why are you here? Nobody forces anything on anyone. The whole point of life is free choice. Choose either God’s way or another way. Nevertheless, those choices will have eternal consequences.
If someone really and truly wants to be a homosexual, then there’s nothing stopping them. They can ask to have their records expunged from the church, or eventually they will be excommunicated anyway. To say they are shunned or ostracized is poppycock. However, because of their lifestyle choice, they may find friends lost as their friends don’t want the association as they would prefer to associate with people with the same eternal goals in mind. Once again, consequences for actions. Do those people hate them? No, but you changed not them.
Homosexuality is selfish and like any other sexual deviance, it ruins families and lives. I know this from personal experience. My brother chose the homosexual lifestyle, and anything he writes or says is always about himself. “I I I, me me me”, “my wants”, “my needs”, “I deserve,” you know, there’s more to life than “you”. He threw away a marriage with five wonderful kids and it all started with gay porn. It went from what his family needed to what he wanted. Now these kids have a broken home.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:31pmAARASTAS, this 2010 study, for example: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?doi=10.1159/000262525
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:34pmLeagle, if there are biological sources for the behavior, then from a legal and social point of view, it is likely that homosexuality will be more accepted. For example, legally, when we are determining whether a group is a suspect class for the purposes of equal protection, one factor considered is immutability, which obviously applies to, say, Black Americans. This would most certainly sway many judges. Surveys in Europe have shown that increasing scientific data showing biological sources of homosexuality cause people to be more accepting of gay behavior. What you say is true–you can ignore the data and insist that God still disapproves–but increased scientific findings undoubtedly take force out of the moral argument.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:47pmBenji,
I am not aware of evidence that pedophilia has genetic roots or is more common in certain families, so you’ll have to show me the data.
Those that think pedophilia is acceptable are not part of the mainstream, including those in favor of gay rights. The mental capacity of children is not sufficient enough to give consent for such behavior, so all cultures around the world consider it dangerous to the child. The people you say are approving it are a group much smaller than the group that says that murder is ok. And this not moral relativism, but a morality based upon free choice amongst individuals mature enough to make that choice and whose decisions do not hurt other people. Adult/child sexuality fails this criteria, while homosexual love (amongst two consenting adults) does not. So you are imposing a pejorative moral standard and implying it is necessary to accept homosexuality, but this is not true. You also impose your world-view, that truth must be constant and come from God, on people who have legitimate and differing viewpoints. In our pluralistic society, you must learn to accept other viewpoints, not from a personal view, but from a societal one. You cannot outlaw the color green because you prefer red. Similarly, you cannot deny other people rights just because you don’t like that behavior. You must be able to show harm and you cannot. And offending your God, which cannot be shown empirically, doesn’t count–any more than my saying your intolerance offends Batman (whom I believe really exists) should count.
As for the other things you claim are somehow linked on the slippery slope to homosexuality, like prostitution, abortion, child infantiside, euthanasia, beastiality, and murder, we can see that some of these do not apply since they involve hurting someone, but others may not and could be things that society ought to approve of even if people who are so committed to the Bible do not. For example, a prostitute who freely chooses that profession is not hurting anyone, so that might be acceptable behavior (as it is in Singapore, for example). Euthanasia, assuming the person wishes to die and is in full command of their faculties, that is, not beside themselves in grief or depression, then that might be acceptable as well (as it is Holland). To equate bestiality or murder with homosexuality is obviously wrong, since they involve non-consent on the part of one of the parties involved, so that is wrong and harmful. it also causes your analogy to break down.
I always find it strange how religious people selectively quote the sins of the Bible. The Old Testament also says that those handling pigs or pigskin on holy days should be stoned, but no conservatives are calling for the execution of NFL players. Some one will have to explain to me why homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so, but Randy Moss’ catches are to be cheered and exploited for cash with not a word of protest from those same religious fundamentalists. Please help me understand your selective prohibitions.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:49pmTall, considering that we didn’t even know what DNA looked like until the mid-seventies, it‘s hard to believe you when you say that we’ve been on the search for 50 years. But even if that falsehood were true, it wouldn’t mean that such discoveries will not happen in the future–especially given all the recent research that points to biological causes. I provided a link to a very recent study that concludes that homosexuality is indeed genetically linked.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:57pmJDS, first, there doesn’t appear to be a genetic link to pedophila, so I don’t think the analogy is apt. Second, if one were found, we clearly would still outlaw behavior such as that because it involves hurting another person, which we find reprehensible regardless of the cause. If you were to kill someone because you are a schizophrenic, you would still be punished, although your punishment would be less harsh. It’s not as though we would let you off with impunity. Third, homosexuality is different in that there IS NO HARM to other people, and the only prohibition relates to a Biblical one. But Biblical prohibitions tend to lose their force when science shows a different side (e.g., Jews eating pork once we got refrigeration, most people ignoring the Biblical prohibition on handling pigskin on holy days, etc.). I think the argument loses force once people see that homosexuality is not about choice and carries no harm to other people. At a minimum, parents will stop fearing that their kids will become gay if they are “exposed” to a homosexual teacher. A the end of the day, it starts to look like Randy Moss catching footballs on Sunday–prohibited in the Bible, but really not a big deal.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:01pmDoc, science hasn’t shown only that. Sure, both men and women have biological reasons to cheat that likely have been encouraged by evolution. However, science has also shown the importance of stable family units for child-rearing. What you do with your spouse is the business of you and your spouse. If you two would like to be swingers, I am not in a position to condemn it or outlaw it. If you would like the right to divorce your spouse for infidelity, I have no say in the matter either. But there are cultures that set women on fire for perceived infidelity, and even if this creates wonderful incentives to keep the marriage holy and permanent, as the Lord commands, it is still against the law in this country and thankfully so. The really relevant science–and this is the test that matters really–is whether you are hurting someone else, and two committed homosexuals really are not.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:08pm1776, I think you are mistaken about what scientific “facts” are. The research has not been falsified, nor has it become conclusive enough yet to show a definitive link. However, it is a lot clearer now than 10 years ago that there is a very strong genetic link that could be proven to be predominant or controlling at some point. And the evidence to support it–epigenetic studies, brain morphology studies, etc.–is pretty compelling even at this early stage. You dismiss it out of hand without any reference to studies, which makes me believe you do not have any.
Analogizing from your relationship to your child to a relationship with God is a very intuitive thing to do. And even in primitive societies studied by Emile Durkheim a long time ago, we find this kind of behavior, but it doesn’t prove anything conclusively about whether God exists or how he wants us to behave. Given that lack of evidence, it doesn‘t seem right for you to prohibit behavior that doesn’t hurt anyone and which could have strong genetic dispositions and sources.
Linking homosexuality to alcoholism, theft, adultery and the like is strange, since those other behaviors do cause harm that can be empirically observed. The alcoholic is hurting themselves physically, not to mention the toll it takes on families because the attendant behavior causes real harm. Theft and adultery by necessity hurt other people in order to be considered wrong in our society. So I don’t see how that compares to homosexuality. You’ll have to explain the harm that can be observed as a result. Saying it offends God is clearly not sufficient.
Report Post »MaestroDaae
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:15pm@ABC – interesting abstract – and I know there have been other studies. Sexual identity is not as easy to pin down as the radically religious might want to believe. I would further submit that the notion of an individual being *either* Gay -or- Straight is completely inadequate in light of modern research.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:48pmMaestro, great point. And you are correct about the science on that, as that is my understanding of the latest research as well. I am reminded again of Leonardo da Vinci’s genius when I think of the famous hermaphrodite which he drew in his own likeness more than 500 years ago.
Report Post »Mithra
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 11:54pmMan is a highly evolved animal who likes to make myths to explain things. Deal with it. This trait occurs naturally in the animal world as well. Not great for moving the genetic line, but it happens. The moral argument is man’s. Not, I also believe that most males would by nature want to leave as many imprints of themselves around except for our societal moral restrictions.
Report Post »walkwithme1966
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 12:55amBeing gay is not and should not be a moral question as it is not a choice – why would anyone choose to be gay knowing that you will be demonized and rejected by friends, family, churches and discriminated against in many ways. That just make no sense to me. And I would think that anyone who has any intelligence would come to that same conclusion. http://maboulette.wordpress.com
Report Post »Highland
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:43pmI’m no fan of Mormon ideology and theology, but the LDS stance on homosexual behavior – that it’s morally wrong – happens to be very similar to my view.
Report Post »I’m just waiting for the gay rights folks to criticize Islam for what they do to homosexuals.
NFYRx
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:01pmOr femenists….Will never happen.
Report Post »gracie07
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:47pmgood point, what the Islamics do to gays is horrible…i find it interesting the attack on the LDS faith…i know why and yet part of me wonders why the big deal? islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and what they do to anyone who disagrees with them is shameful
Report Post »Hmschlmom
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:52pmI am not a Mormon either…
Report Post »But what isn’t mentioned is, MOST MAJOR RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD DO NOT ACCEPT HOMOSEXUALITY EITHER! Mormons are by no means alone in their beliefs…
Why single out Mormons? Oh, wait…that’s right…they have an axe to grind…
familyofsix
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:42pmYeah, this is just a redirection and diversion tactic by the Left. The Mormon church leaders have always taught this same basic Christian doctrine, with a focus on the family unit and moral purity and fidelity per God’s law, in an age of declining social values in the world. There’s nothing new here…big surprise.
Report Post »PeachyinGA
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:36pmMaking my shocked face that an anti-Mormon story is a headline! What next anti-thick glasses, anti-5pm Fox shows, anti-Goldline clients (Oooops, already read that one)???
Report Post »Ga. Tea Party
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:35pmI can’t really say what I think as we no longer live in a free nation with freedom of speach. My thoughts would be labeled as hate speach or a number of things designed to stiffle free thought and words. This is on you who complain about everything that you don’t like.
Report Post »untameable-kate
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:51pmShame on you, you know we are just as free as ever..Right Obamaworshioer. I can’t say anymore, not allowed.
Report Post »funjumper
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:30pmI would think that since ALL organized religion condemns homosexuality as a sin against God then this should not be all that surprising.
Report Post »Indyeast
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:38pmagree.
Report Post »NotInKansasAnymore
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:11pmI‘d like to know why they don’t protest outside a Mosque.
Dorothy
Report Post »akamaikamaaina
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:29pmYeh, so what?
Report Post »JD Carp
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 9:58amNext the will accuse the Jews of being too optimistic for lopping off a half inch before they know how long it’s going to be.
What, “separation pf chuch and state” not convenient on this one?
Report Post »gracie07
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:29pmjust last night i listened to a BYU address given in 1992 from Boyd K Packer. Elder Packer has ALWAYS touched on moral issues. In this very address he said much of the same things that he spoke about at conference in early October.
Report Post »The secular community is trying to make Elder Packer and the Church look like they are bias towards a group. This is simply NOT the case. If anyone who truly listened to his talk in early October they would have realized this.
WVRob
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:37pmOf course, those that don’t like the tenants of the religion could always leave it… just saying…
Report Post »(no, I’m not Mormon)
abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:43pmThe stats do not lie.
Report Post »leagle-beagle
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:04pmto ABC…what stats? I am not aware of any stats that support what the lead antagonist to the Mormons in this article is purporting. How can you tie 4 suicides in September to the Mormons? I know they’re very effective organizers, but they make up about 3% of the population….using their numbers, which probably include many who no longer consider themselves Mormon.
Report Post »truthandlogic
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:47pmIsaiah 5:20 – Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! -
Their attitude seems to be “How dare you preach what you believe god told you is right. It might hurt someone and cause them to make a choice and kill themselves. Don’t you know that people have no free will, we are all just drones that follow genetic programming. You are hurting people and this causes them to commit suicide! That is their only escape because of your teachings. You are the evil one preaching hate in the name of righteousness. How many young lost people have you killed? MURDERER!!!”
I feel for anyone who chooses to be gay and feels trapped. Your family should love you no matter what you choose. But you should be aware that your choice is evil and is supported by Satan. Don’t kill the messenger. Don’t try to pass good for evil, and evil for good.
Report Post »Bot
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:07pmSo Mormons who are active temple-goers have a fidelity rate in marriage in excess of 95 percent. And practicing homosexuals have a fidelity rate of less than 5 percent. Serial “hookups” by homosexuals, sometimes in the hundreds and thousands are the norm.
No wonder practicing homosexuals feel they cannot live up to their Mormon parents’ expectations.
Report Post »Polwatcher
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:43pmI have met and worked with many Mormons. The Mormons are fine people in every way and I am not a Mormon. Left wing Liberals hate and often deride any strong religion because such a religion is in their way. Left wing Liberals frequently show their supidity in many possible ways and this is but one.
Report Post »abc
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:21pmLeagle, more than 950 suicides in Utah in ‘08. That is more than enough for statistical significance. 72% of the state is Mormon, so it is a good proxy for the religion when compared to states with far lower numbers. You can make up stories on why the data might be bad, show real evidence that the data is bad, or pay attention to data that is likely good since it was fact-checked.
Report Post »truthandlogic
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 8:51pmreply to ABC’s comment ~ Utah has around the 15th highest suicide rate in the nation depending on the year you look at the data.
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/43026
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-11-28-depression-suicide-numbers_N.htm
http://health.utah.gov/opha/publications/hsu/08Jul_Suicide.pdf
How is that a good litmus test for mormon society? And yes, I noticed that liberal states have less suicides per person than central states. Perhaps this is more of larger problem where people in those regions are ashamed of seeing a psychiatrist or talking about their problems. I think it’s the attitude of “If you ain‘t bleeding you ain’t hurt, now cowboy up and snap out of it.” That’s kind of the mentality I notice when interacting with people in the states with the highest rates. look at the top states for 2006
Wyoming — 116 — 22.6 per 100,000 population
Montana — 189 — 20
Alaska — 135 — 19.9
Nevada — 486 — 19.5
New Mexico — 352 — 18.1
Arizona — 979 — 15.9
S. Dakota — 125 — 15.9
Oregon — 579 — 15.7
Colorado — 730 — 15.3
Idaho — 222 — 15.2
Oklahoma — 537 –15
West Virginia — 269 — 14.9
Kentucky — 622 — 14.8
Tennessee — 874 — 14.4
N. Dakota — 90 — 14.1
Utah — 362 — 14
Kansas — 379 — 13.8
Missouri — 799 — 13.7
Florida — 2,440 — 13.5
Arkansas — 376 — 13.4
Indiana — 824 — 13.1
Vermont — 81 — 13.1
Washington state — 809 — 12.7
Alabama — 580 — 12.6
N. Carolina — 1,106 — 12.5
S. Carolina — 524 — 12.1
all the “cowboy” states are up there.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:29pmGee, you think someone is trying to take the focus off the fact that OBAMA IS SUING TO KEEP DADT IN PLACE?
Report Post »snowleopard3200
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:49pmI will say only this much on the subject – let everyone make their own choice on what ideals they wish to follow or not follow in the faith they select, or avoidance of faiths altogeather, that is one of the last great freedoms we still have in this land for now.
Do not let the Progressives continue to divide us and conquer, the power and freedom of choice is the great strenght the American People have, let us use it wisely and take the nation back starting this November.
http://www.artinphoenix.com/gallery/grimm (mix art)
Report Post »MAULEMALL
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:55pmWho cares about a persons sexual picadillos…. HR 4646….
a BRAND NEW TAX that you probably didn’t know about.
NFYRx
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 12:59pm“traditional family” LOL. How many wives make one of those?
Yeah I know what site I’m on; Dog pile on me guys.
Being gay is a sin just like lusting after someone of the opposite sex, cheating on your taxes, or telling little white lies.
The trick is to admit you are a sinner, confess your sin to God and repent (alot of people need to look up the def. of this word), believing Jesus Christ paid the debt for it. Not continue doing it and hope no one finds out.
Hebrews1:1-3
ds7
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:06pmmore of the marketing of evil.
the sodomites continue their drone of trying to convince the world that they are just like ward and june when in reality it is a hedonistic lifestyle centered in promiscuous sex.
they attempt to copy the “form” of marriage while ignoring the “function.”
Report Post »snowleopard3200
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:06pm@Maulemall
Thanks for the intel on HR 4646, is this the transaction tax that I have heard Pelosi whispering about for the last few weeks (at least for myself a few weeks)? Or is that something totally different? I made an attempt to download the copy of the legislation proposed and twice my computer refused to do so.
Report Post »HKS
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:09pmWaste of time conversation, probably a liberal plant. Watch the other hand
Report Post »normbal
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:10pmhear, hear, SNOWLEOPARD3200.
It’s all about choice.
What was it one of President Reagan’s cabinet members said about Pope J2P2 regarding sex or birth control or something? “He no play-a the game, he no make-a the rules.”
If you‘ve chosen a homosexual lifestyle and belief system and you don’t like what’s in the bible, find another church, or correct your thinking and behavior.
Jesus is still your savior if you choose. But he made it clear, the law is the law. Violating it has consequences.
Live with it.
Report Post »MAULEMALL
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:15pmSnowleopard3200,,, actually every one needs to Google it,, HR 4646 1% tax on ALL transactions..
Report Post »MAULEMALL
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:17pmhttp://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-4646
Report Post »MAULEMALL
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:19pm2/23/2010–Introduced.
Report Post »Debt Free America Act – States as purposes of this Act the raising of sufficient revenue from a fee on transactions to eliminate the national debt within seven years and the phasing out of the individual income tax. Amends the Internal Revenue Code to impose a 1% fee, offset by a corresponding nonrefundable income tax credit, on transactions that use a payment instrument, including any check, cash, credit card, transfer of stock, bonds, or other financial instrument. Defines “transaction” to include retail and wholesale sales, purchases of intermediate goods, and financial and intangible transactions. Establishes in the legislative branch the Bipartisan Task Force for Responsible Fiscal Action to review the fiscal imbalance of the federal government and make recommendations to improve such imbalance. Provides for expedited consideration by Congress of Task Force recommendations. Repeals after 2017 the individual income tax, refundable and nonrefundable personal tax credits, and the alternative minimum tax (AMT) on individuals. Directs the Secretary of the Treasury to: (1) prioritize the repayment of the national debt to protect the fiscal stability of the United States; and (2) study and report to Congress on the implementation of this Act.
untameable-kate
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 1:54pmI would be 100% willing to pay a 1% tax on everything if the government would not use the revenue for more spending and if it took the place of income taxes. We need to pay the debt down some way, government spending would have to be cut too. Or am I wrong? Did I misread it?
Report Post »Timsincali
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:39pmThere was a poster who made a slightly veiled dig at polygamy. Well, one wife is more than enough for me but where is the Bible does it command that a man should never have more than one spouse? When GOD chastised David for what he did to Uriah GOD said, “I gave you his house and his wives and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you much, much more.” (2 SAM 12:8)
Why would GOD offer David “much much more wives” if it were against HIS will? I am not trying to be a trouble maker here. There are a lot of references of multiple wives so I will withhold judgement on any GODly person who chooses to go that route for who am I to go against our LORD?
I’m just sayin…
Report Post »A Doctors Labor Is Not My Right
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:44pmHomosexuality is an ineffective reparative drive to assert the gender identity they know they have in common with everyone of their gender.
Check out this article.
The Meaning of Same-Sex Attraction
Report Post »http://www.narth.com/docs/niconew.html
ltb
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 2:47pmNFYRx, some people’s path of repentance isn’t 180 degrees after they get saved. Personally, I believe the parable of the vineyard workers is an illustration that sometimes people struggle with sin long after they get saved (Mt 20:1-16). Speaking from experience, I know there were some sins in my life (e.g., smoking) that took years to overcome, so I always get a little irritated when self-professing Christians seem to be a little too smug about their own sinlessness.
I’m guessing you’re a Calvinist, because Calvinist seem to spend half their time preaching the awesome news of salvation by the grace of God and the other half of their time telling people they’re not really saved because they still sin (e.g., Ray Comfort). Let me tell you something NFYRx, no one stops sinning after they get saved and anyone who says he doesn’t sin is a liar (1 Jn 8-10). As a matter of fact, while you’re sitting their telling people that they need to look up the word “repent,” you are deceiving people by using “NFYRx” instead of your real name and are therefore sinning yourself. My point? As Christians, we would do well to consider ourselves to be among the “worst of sinners” like Paul (1 Tim 1:15) when tempted to accuse others that they aren’t really saved because they haven’t repented enough.
For anyone who is not a Christian and is thinking, “I have too much sin in my life and there is no way I could ever overcome it,” you are right, you will never overcome it on your own. And if you’re thinking that you have too much sin in your life to be loved by God, you’re wrong, because God loves you just the way you are, even though you are his enemy right now (Ro 5:10). The important thing is for you to realize is that you are a sinner (just like everyone else in the world) and that God offers Salvation through Jesus for those of us who accept his death on the Cross as payment for our sins. If you turn to Jesus and tell Him that you accept His death as payment for the punishment your sins deserve and then just keep turning to Him, you’ll discover that He’s not “just” God and our Savior, He’s an awesome friend who will help you overcome.
Report Post »Bot
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:04pmBoth promiscuous heterosexuals and homosexuals are excommunicated. There is no singling out homosexuals.
Marriage reflects the natural moral and social law evidenced the world over. As the late British social anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin noted in his study of world civilizations, any society that devalued the nuclear family soon lost what he called “expansive energy,” which might best be summarized as society’s will to make things better for the next generation. In fact, no society that has loosened sexual morality outside of man-woman marriage has survived.
Analyzing studies of cultures spanning several thousands of years on several continents, Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality.
When marriage loses its unique status, women and children most frequently are the direct victims. Giving same-sex relationships or out-of-wedlock heterosexual couples the same special status and benefits as the marital bond would not be the expansion of a right but the destruction of a principle. . If the one-man/one-woman definition of marriage is broken, there is no logical stopping point for continuing the assault on marriage.
Report Post »independentvoteril
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:08pmWho cares what such a minority thinks or wants to protest.. let them it won’t help.. haven‘t changed my mind but than I’m Catholic and guess what the Bible isn‘t supportive of Gay’s either.. apparently it has something to do with the phrase “be fruitful and multiply”…
Report Post »MAULEMALL
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:27pmuntameable-kate
It’s a new tax ( On EVERY financial transaction you make) that won’t do anything except kill jobs and economic growth…
Which makes paying down the debt impossable…
A VAT is next ..
Report Post »Polwatcher
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:29pmOur society wastes far too much time discussing this subject. Instead of praising illicit sex of any kind we need to point out the many disadvantages such as herpes, HIV, etc.
Report Post »psst
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:33pmIndependent!
Report Post »At least they are Fruit/s—— ful.
crazedbanshee
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 3:38pm@ LTB….if you think this is a none issue you are a fool. You dont think part of the progressive plan is to destroy the family. You dont think they want to be the ones teaching your kids. If they can get your kids on their side on this they will then be able to systematically break down your kids belief structure in God. They know the majority of mature americans have strong conservitive values, that is why they are going after your kids, because they are still trying to figure things out. (assuming you have kids)
Report Post »Mary M. Tebbe
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:01pmtimsincali: When God took the rib from Adam, he created one wife for him; not two. Eve got Adam into enough trouble without him having two wives to deal with. LOL
About one wife, read Ephesians 5: 31: For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the TWO WILL BECOME ONE FLESH.
Titus 1: 6 tells us that an elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
There are several more verses in Scripture that point to the fact that a man should have one wife. I believe that was God’s intention at the beginning when he said that a man should leave his parents and cling only to his wife (singluar wife).
About homosexuality: Romans 1: 18 – 32 tells us, The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Homosexuality is a demonic spirit..the demons being fallen angels that were thrown out of heaven by God because they sided with satan when satan tried to usurp God’s Throne in heaven. Since satan was thrown out of heaven and cast down to the earth, he is called the false god of this earth, but he is really no god at all because he was created by God Almighty. His goal is to completely destroy, annihilate, and exterminate God’s family. One way he does that is to have men lust after men and women lust after women so that they cannot produce a family for God. Satan does everything he can to destroy God‘s creation and God’s created.
LTB: About repentance and sin. 2 Corinthians 5: 16 – 20 reads, So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliatioin. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin (Jesus) to be sin for us, so that in him (Jesus) we might become the righteousness of God.
Report Post »We strive to live “Christ”like lives, and God makes us new creatures when we are born again. For some it takes longer to throw off sin, and for others it comes right away upon salvation. God will be the judge of that. John 3: 1 – 21 gives us the plan of salvation. Jesus told Nicodemus what it would take to be saved.
tmarends
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:09pm@normbal
Jesus gave two commandments — 1) Love God with all your heart, mind, and would and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. How does ostracizing LGBT people fit into either??
tmarends
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:15pm@A Doctors Labor Is Not My Right
Narth? Really? They do NOTHING to help the LGBT community. All they represent is what Exodus represents… shaming LGBT people into repressing their natural feelings because those feelings don’t fit what is “normal” in our society. That is NOT loving your neighbor as Christ commanded us to do.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:34pmcrazedbanshee – I never said it is a non issue and am quite aware that progressives/communists/liberals want to destroy the family unit. Should homosexuality be fought at every turn? Of course it should be, especially in schools. Let me be very clear that I do not want homosexuality being taught as an acceptable lifestyle to children, period. It just seems to me that Christians could be a little more compassionate, not compromising, when it comes to dealing with homosexuals.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 4:55pmMary M. – it seems like you and I are on the same page. I would never encourage a Christian to sin, but I also hope I would never accuse someone of being a “false convert” just because they are struggling with sin. My goal is to emulate Jesus, as should be the goal of any Christian; however, I also understand that trying to be like Jesus will not get me into Heaven and my failure to be like him will not keep me out of Heaven. If you believe that your attempts to lead a sinless life are what will get you into Heaven, then you have received a false gospel which is no gospel at all (Galatians 1:6-7).
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” (1 Jn 1:8-10).
Report Post »A Doctors Labor Is Not My Right
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 5:35pmTMARENDS,
What, specifically, did you have a problem with in this NARTH article? Cuz I‘m guessing you didn’t read it.
The Meaning of Same-Sex Attraction
http://www.narth.com/docs/niconew.html
According to the article, these people sought out therapy on their own. And the author is speaking from knowledge, having spoken to them.
Listen, you have to claim to be a different kind of human being to claim that there’s no such thing as gender identity. Our gendered parts respond the same way to the same type of stimuli, so, at least for my gender, I know exactly what gets us going, and it’s the gendered parts of the opposite sex.
And as further proof that there is such a thing as gender identity, why do gay people ONLY prefer those of their own gender, if there is no identity that pertains to each gender, specifically?
No, what makes the most sense is what NARTH has said, which is that homosexuality is an ineffective reparative drive to assert their gender identity.
Report Post »Stuck_in_CA
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 7:48pm“Activists Claim Anti-Gay Sentiments Permeate Mormonism”
Report Post »Yeah? Those sentiments ‘permeate’ The Bible, too.
Mary M. Tebbe
Posted on October 25, 2010 at 10:39pmLTB: Thank you for your response. You are correct. Though we become saved, our sinful nature, our natural man will still sin, but we take it to God and go on in life living our best for God. The sinful nature is always at war with our spiritual nature. Paul said that many times in Scripture so that we would not get discouraged and think that there was something wrong with us. We will sin at times, but God does not want us to make a practice of it. I don’t really consider smoking a sin, although I don’t smoke. It may be harmful to your health, but it won’t send a man to hell. I think sins are like adultery, practicing witchcraft, worshiping idols, hating God, lying; things like that. Though we receive Christ as Savior, we spend the rest of our lives working out our salvation. FAITH without works is dead.
Report Post »tmarends
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 1:13pm@A Doctors Labor Is Not My Right
I am a man. I enjoy being a man. I don’t have a gender identity issue. I find nothing appealing about women, no offense to any women here. While I can appreciate beauty in both sexes, a woman’s body does nothing for me sexually — there is no stimulation from it.
I sought out therapy of my own at one point. I spent years, and wasted a lot of money in the process, trying to “fix” something that wasn’t broken. I am as God created me, a gay man.
Report Post »MemphisViking
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 2:55pm@TMARENDS
Report Post »Jesus gave more than two commandments, he just said those were the most important. It takes a seriously selective reading of the Bible to think that homosexuality is ok.
tmarends
Posted on October 26, 2010 at 3:11pm@MemphisViking
Please point out to me where Jesus said homosexuality is wrong or sinful.
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