Faith

Canadian Atheist Sues for $5,000 to Stop County Council‘s Recitation of the Lord’s Prayer Over Feelings of ‘Anguish, Discrimination, Exclusion’

Peter Ferguson Suing Over Grey County Lords Prayer Recitation

Peter Ferguson (Photo Credit: Peter Ferguson/National Post)

A Canadian man is launching a legal battle against his local government in an effort to stop the Lord’s Prayer from being recited before city council meetings.

Peter Ferguson is suing, claiming that the practice is causing him “anguish, discrimination, exclusion, rejection and loss of enjoyment of life.” These bold claims also come with a request for $5,000 in damages along with a court order to no longer allow the Christian prayer in Kimberley, Ontario (Grey County).

“I don’t like politicians who break the law, and our county council is breaking the law,” Ferguson told The National Post.

As a non-believer, Ferguson claims that the recitation of the prayer causes him distress, as highlighted by the aforementioned emotions. He is joined by another Ontario resident who shares his view that the Lord’s Prayer is a violation of epic proportions. She also sued her city council over the same issue last month.

Ferguson is basing his claims on a 1999 case in which the Ontario Court of Appeals forced Penetanguishene, a local town, to stop reciting the very same prayer. The basis? It purportedly “imposed a Christian moral tone on public deliberations,” Religion News Service reports. Ferguson is being represented by Secular Ontario, a local atheist group.

National Post has more about the legal battle:

Secular Ontario president Sheila Ayala and her colleagues spent most of 2005 compiling a list of Ontario municipalities that recite the Lord’s Prayer before every council meeting.

Ms. Ayala said the organization sent letters to all the municipalities on its list in 2006 and only two willingly changed their policy. Letters to the Ontario provincial government were also unsuccessful, leaving legal action from locals as the only other recourse, she said.

According to Ms. Ayala, plaintiffs are warned of potential pushback from their community before being guided through the process.

Peter Ferguson Suing Over Grey County Lords Prayer Recitation

While some may see the effort as an over-the-top attempt at preventing religious expression, Ferguson believes that it was the right step to take after he purportedly spent over a year trying to convince local officials to abandon the practice.

“My distress from this discrimination, exclusion and rejection have reduced my ability to enjoy living and participating in a democratic country and in municipal affairs,” he proclaimed. “This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I care about the law. I care about being fair.”

Like other communities in the area, Grey County will need to decide between embroiling itself in a lengthy and costly legal battle, simply bowing to Ferguson and his compatriot’s commands – or finding a middle ground on the matter. It is this latter option that the town has essentially pledged to make, as officials plan to strike a balance between tradition and cost.

(H/T: Religion News Service)

Comments (101)

1 2
  • IslandAtheist
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:55pm

    “Play with your imaginary friends in your tax free churches”. that’s what I would say if I was CANADIAN.

    Report Post » IslandAtheist  
    • DEMOCRATS.ARE.EVIL
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 3:01pm

      Maybe you can answer this: why are atheists always so unattractive?

      Report Post » DEMOCRATS.ARE.EVIL  
    • Realist4U
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 4:30pm

      Petr! Peter! Peter!…You sir, need to get a life.

      Report Post »  
    • Wichita1
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 6:51pm

      Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name.
      Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth,
      As it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread.
      And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us.
      And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.
      For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever.
      Amen.

      Report Post »  
  • The_Cabrito_Goat
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:48pm

    We should donate some loudspeakers for their recitation.

    Report Post » The_Cabrito_Goat  
  • mikeg642000
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:08pm

    Atheists like this one are more about hatred of Christians and Christianity than Atheism.

    Report Post »  
  • 1Karen
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 11:46am

    I’m telling you guys, these people can’t access a part of their brain that it takes to talk to God. It’s been found in many studies. It’s a handicap, they can’t know him. It upsets them. But, as with all handicaps, we don’t handicap ourselves to honor those that are. Special classes, in schools, and etiquette lessons for public socialization skills. It’s not their fault, but we all have to live with it.

    Report Post » 1Karen  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:54pm

      Please, show us this study.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • Alessandre
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 2:29pm

      you may be referring to the “God spot”: “Researchers …found a region of the brain that could be linked to religious experience, but they neither claimed that this region was the cause of all such experiences []. …[T]hey had discovered …what goes on in the brain is profoundly connected to what goes on in the mind, even in the most sublime of all experiences.” (http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=503)

      loving God is a response to God’s love: “We love, because he first loved us.” (1 John 4:19) “…God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.” (Rom 5:5) the brain is involved, as it is w/ everything we do, but it’s not primarily an intellectual activity. communication w/ God is an act of the will & of faith & is not dependent on what one feels. anyone can pray simply by doing it. some people have feelings, others don’t. genuine prayer is not intellectual but rather with the heart, even when there are no feelings: see 1 John 4:19 & many of the Psalms, much of Paul’s writings, the Gospels, etc.

      it‘s untrue that science has shown that some people haven’t the ability to believe in God. the media prints splashy “science” articles which are read by those who, by & large, lack in-depth education in the sciences & don‘t know how to interpret what they’re reading. to the best of my knowledge, there not even any research on why some have faith & others don’t (& I keep up w/ such things).

      Report Post »  
  • wvernon1981
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 11:24am

    It concerns me that any official would be making an appeal to magic rather than reason to open a government meeting.

    Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:21pm

      @ WVERN….That concerns me as well. Who is doing that anyway?

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:04pm

      Anyone who demands prayer before a government meeting, Sleazy.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:42pm

      @ BRUCE P…You must be mistaken the original poster said they were invoking magic. Prayer, seeking the wisdom of the omniscient, however, is very logical and reasonable and wise thing to do. Magic, not so much. Thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • wvernon1981
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 2:06pm

      I’m pretty sure invoking a deity is akin to a magic incantation. Same principle, different addressee.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 3:18pm

      @WVERN….It most assurdely is not the same. Mere opinion a logical argument does not make.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 6:59pm

      What is the difference between asking a deity to interfere in the world and performing a magic ritual?

      There is none. It is all based on magical thinking.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:38pm

      @ BRUCE…..Prayer is asking for guidance and wisdom to be in alignment with the will of God. It requires humility and submissiveness to accept the preferred will of God over the praying individuals will, not to necessarily intervene in any way. It also recognizes the proper order of the Creator over the creation and his rightlful authority to command the affairs of men in both individual and corporate governance, it does not seek to manipulate that Creator, as is stated in the Lord’s prayer mentioned in this story. If by magic (divination) you are referring to traditional connotations and not slight of hand, then it is seeking to change or manipulate in order to produce supernatural effects for selfish or self centered purposes without concern for the will of the supernatural. Divination only seeks a means to an end, there is within the magic itself no desire for relationship, but only a desire to manipulate a power to achieve an end, typically dubious in nature. Prayer is seeking the wisdom and will of the “Supernatural” in a relational manner with a desire to know the one being prayed to and be the servant to His will, magic is attempting to assert an individual’s will by seeking some power regardless of the nature of that power. That is quite a big difference in a fundamental way, hence two different terms with two different meanings. CONT….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:44pm

      @ BRUCE….. Therefore, magic is the use of words and phrases to manipulate “a power” to get what you want. Precision in the incantations was essential. Instead of healing your son’s broken leg, you did not want to accidentally turn him into a newt. But that is not what prayer is. Prayer is communication between individuals, like I stated earlier, who are in a relationship such as a child to a father. I listen to what my children say no matter how they say it. While I hope they say please, I will always meet their needs, conversely certain things they will never get no matter how often they say please. The same is true with God. In that sense prayer is really no more than the communication between child and father. Magic as I have argued is not reflected in that description in any manner or meaning of the word. Thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
  • oldduffer
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 11:02am

    Time to take these troublemakers pictures and post them on signs in every yard. Let everyone in the town know how popular they are. Other than having someone beat hell out of him you’re going to have to put up with the lawyers. The minorities have taken over so it’s fight back or bend over and learn to grin and bear it.

    Report Post »  
  • zoro51
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:47am

    sure no prayer so when u DIE n u will n youre BURNING IN HELL remember YOU DIDNT WANT THE ORDS PRAYER SPOKNE.. LOSER!

    Report Post » zoro51  
    • wvernon1981
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 11:22am

      Big threat. Atheists don’t believe in hell.

      Besides, what kind of person are you to take joy in someone burning eternally?

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:23pm

      @ WVERN….While I don’t endorse the spirit of what was posted you do realize whether or not you do, or do not believe in something does not effect the reality of its existence or nonexistence don’t you?

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:55pm

      So full of hate.

      “You don’t believe the same way I do! So you will spend an eternity being tortured for it!”

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • Balpit
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 3:32pm

      Compared to the new atheist’s mantra of “You DON’T don’t believe the same way we do! We’re going to make your life a living hell and call you names, like delusional and irrational, until you stop believing in God!”

      Report Post »  
    • The_Cabrito_Goat
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 10:51am

      Wow, you NAILED what Hippo was trying to say, Bruce. Awesome job!

      Report Post » The_Cabrito_Goat  
  • Ted Zeppelin
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:45am

    Let’s not overlook the schmuck attorney who represents this extrotionist. Here’s proof that ninety-seven percent of all lawyers make the rest look bad.
    I notice the guy who looks like he‘s doing commrcials for The Hair Club For Vaginas doesn’t cite the law he claims is being broken. It’s likely he knows about as much about his Constitution as Democrts know about ours.

    Report Post »  
  • DYNA
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:32am

    If he feels “anguish” now, what word will he use to describe hell?

    Report Post »  
  • IMCHRISTIAN
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:31am

    Atheist believes in nothing so nothing should bother them.

    Report Post »  
    • PutMoreOnMyPlate
      Posted on August 13, 2012 at 6:20pm

      I keep wondering why I come across all these lawsuits from athiests because they’re soooo tormented by Christians that they have to share their misery with the rest of us. Why does something that brings me joy have to cause them pain and then I remember the way I once was and realize that without turning to Christ there’s a natural enmity towards God. So the joy I have is not in bringing them pain but realizing that the more they complain about Christianity enhances my faith in God. So really they‘re doing God’s will by attacking Christianity and God. I’m grateful that they are but sad because they do not for my sake but for theirs.

      Report Post »  
  • Monica2
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:11am

    Canada does not have seperation of church and state, the first line of their constitutions states: In god we trust. He has no case, unless he goes to one of the various communist anti-Christian pro-Islam fake Human rights organizations.

    Report Post »  
  • Critters58
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:07am

    Let him plug his hears. Throw this case out. This is nonsense! Taxpayers pay for these cases! Throw them out!

    Report Post »  
  • floridareader
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:56am

    so, his logic is: everybody shut up so I can hear my self!
    Hey Mr. buy a piece of land in Pluto and move.

    Report Post » floridareader  
    • G-WHIZ
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:07am

      Same-as….Y’o dont smoke…but y’o on-purpose go to smoking-restaurants and businesses and DEMAND they stop ‘cus y’o can’t “breath”! How-bout y’o go to non-smokin places aready setup fo‘Y’o, and shut the h-ll -up!! Y‘o goto y’o smokin-friend‘s house all’a time and don’ complain atall! What’s-up-wit dat???

      Report Post »  
  • Tigress1
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:37am

    Awww! Poor widdle baby! Will the other kids not play wif him? Does he feel left out? Awww! Let’s throw him a pity party!

    Seriously, the same thing is happening here in Memphis too. The Freedom From Religion Foundation wants the Memphis City Council to stop praying before meetings. I guess these atheists want even more corruption in the gov.! The politicians in Memphis need all the help from God that they can get!

    https://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2009/September/Atheists-Ask-Memphis-City-Council-to-Stop-Praying/

    I’m sick of all these atheists going around LOOKING for things they can pick on, sue, or whine about. They need to get a life!

    Report Post » Tigress1  
  • JimL
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:17am

    Religous Freedom being replaced with worship.

    Report Post »  
  • hi
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:13am

    I admit if they were praying to Allah I would not like it either. Therefore I agree with him.

    Report Post » hi  
    • Tigress1
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:39am

      That would mean the the citizens had to have elected Muslims if they were praying to Allah. If they had a problem with it they shouldn’t have elected them in the first place!

      Report Post » Tigress1  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:04pm

      No, Tigress, politicians are elected to office to lead their respective communities and represent all of their constituents, no matter their religious beliefs. They are not elected to evangelize. That goes for Christians. It goes for Muslims. It goes for Jews. And it goes for atheists. It would be every bit as wrong if an atheist, elected to office, opened up each meeting with a lecture on how god does not exist.

      Evangelizing is not the place of elected officials, not in any official government capacity, anyway. If you are in need of spiritual guidance, find a church.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • SoNick
      Posted on August 12, 2012 at 11:21am

      @tigress
      Bruce pretty much covered everything but let me add that what you are suggesting (don‘t elect muslim officials if you don’t wanna hear muslim prayers) is downright unamerican. Ever heard of paragraph 3 of article VI of the Constitution? “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States”. Now if the Constitution specifies that there should not be a religious test for public office, it means that you could end up with a city council made up of American Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and unbelievers. What do these people have in common? They’re all American and they obviously want to help their community. If they want to pray, these officials can go to their favorite place of worship but when they perform their public service, they should keep their holy books to themselves. Simple, easy, constitutional…. American.

      Report Post »  
  • Derek01
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:00am

    These morons who are “so sensitive and easily offended” should be given a stay in a rubber room. Obviously life is too tough for them. They are a risk to society, could snap at any second and put the public in danger.

    Report Post »  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:12pm

      Like Christians who say the mere existence of other forms of thought is an attack on them?

      If there is someone who is easily offended, it the followers of Christ. So insecure in their faith, they need to force it upon others, teach it in schools, force others to listen to their prayers.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • JohnHW
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:55pm

      Bruce P.: You describe Islam perfectly, not Christians.

      Report Post » JohnHW  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 6:59pm

      JOHNW — everything I described is what Christians do.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • Derek01
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 9:52am

      Judeo-christian values help make our countries great. Not perfect, but great. Morons misunderstood our tolerance towards them as weakness. Now these arrogant mental midgets think they are smarter and wiser than the people whose values actually made our countries great. Their ignorance will lead to failure

      Report Post »  
  • kaydeebeau
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:47am

    So if NOT reciting the Lord’s Prayer in public causes me “anguish, discrimination, exclusion, rejection and loss of enjoyment of life.” do I get to sue?

    Report Post » kaydeebeau  
  • woodyee
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:38am

    Ferguson is basing his claims on a 1999 case in which the Ontario Court of Appeals forced Penetanguishene, a local town, to stop reciting the very same prayer. The basis? It purportedly “imposed a Christian moral tone on public deliberations,” Religion News Service reports. “Ferguson is being represented by Secular Ontario, a local atheist group.”

    What bald-faced hypocrisy!

    Report Post » woodyee  
    • RWCT
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:47am

      If Peter thinks he feels excluded etc NOW, just wait until the poor fool will have ETERNITY , to ponder his exclusion and loneliness. I pray he will repent and believe, His life may be demanded of him TODAY!

      Report Post »  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:06pm

      WOODYEE — Hypocrisy?

      I don’t think you understand what that word means.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
  • TROONORTH
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:37am

    The Canadian version of a constitution; ‘The Charter of Rights and Freedoms’, imposed on our country by a former Liberal government under that pillar of socialism, Pierre Trudeau, has encouraged these social misfits to take every issue they have with Canadian society to the courts. Soon we will be as screwed up as you are!

    Report Post » TROONORTH  
    • Dano.50
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:34am

      Trudeau, a liberal, was socialist, little rat faced weasel.

      Proof?

      Castro had a place of honor at his funeral.

      Thank God we have a majority conservative government right now.

      Proof Mr. Harper’s doing something right?

      Despite several votes of non-confidence, brought on by the ganging up of the Liberal Party, the socialist New Democratic Party, the Quebec separatists, and some other scruffs, that forced national elections, each time the Canadian people gave Mr. Harper more power. The last election he was elected to a majority government so he could tell the libs, the socialists, the separatists and greenie party to sit down and shut up.

      For Americans who don’t understand our political system, it would akin to your president being impeached, just because your opposition parties ganged up and simply VOTED so, TWICE, cause they didn’t like your policies, and yet the people were smart enough to call b.s. and voted the same guy back, giving him greater power each time.

      Now, the media just excoriates Mr. Harper as some king/tyrant/power mad dictator who refuses to play nice.

      Report Post »  
    • The_Cabrito_Goat
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 7:20pm

      Well said, Dan

      Report Post » The_Cabrito_Goat  
  • Independent4233
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:17am

    The entire “athest” movement is comprised of mostly homosexuals who despise religion…but especially Christianity….because it doesn’t approve of their practice of sodomy.

    Pretending they’re “atheists” is just another tact they employ,hoping to water diown support for God and gain acceptance of their mental illness into the mainstream.

    It’s really as simple as that.

    A mere atheist isn’t so passionate he goes to such lengths of activism to try to demonize religion. Only sick homosexual activists do that.

    Report Post »  
    • woodyee
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:32am

      Well said. Your last line applies to much that the hateful Left does.

      Report Post » woodyee  
    • woodyee
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:34am

      PS – however, nothing in the story indicates that this incident has anything to do with homosexuals…

      Report Post » woodyee  
    • ICanComment
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 9:04am

      To atheists: fine – be an atheist. Perfectly understandable, and even though I consider myself deeply religious, I can respect those with whom I disagree.

      Then there are the militant atheists who are so intolerant that the mere mention of God makes them angry. If they don’t believe in God, then why do they appear to be so angry with Him? Sheesh. No one is tying these folks to chairs, taping their eyes open and making them watch subversive propaganda films for hours. If one is an atheist and doesn‘t agree with the Lord’s Prayer, then respectfully refrain from the practice. If they recited an atheist pledge or something, I wouldn’t agree with it, but living in today‘s culture I wouldn’t be surprised at all. I wouldn’t be happy about it, but it’s free speech – one cost of liberty is hearing things you don’t agree with. Big deal – just disagree. As adults we’re bound to hear all sorts of professions from people with whom we disagree. It’s a diverse world. We should react like adults instead of whining about it and demanding money. (”Johnny believes in Santa. I don’t. I think Santa’s a jerkface – I mean, I don’t believe in him. Make Johnny give me $20!”)

      If one doesn’t believe in religion, wouldn’t the rational response to said religion be indifference? I‘m sure there are plenty of atheists who hear the Lord’s Prayer being recited and just shrug. Who’s it hurting?

      Report Post »  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:08pm

      INDEPENDENT — your comments are so asinine they are laughable.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • Independent4233
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 8:58pm

      Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 1:08pm
      “INDEPENDENT — your comments are so asinine they are laughable.”

      Well, Brucey Poo, you certainly marshalled all your facts and presented them in impeccable order to come up with an iron clad logical reason why you disagree.

      Report Post »  
  • burnteye86
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:03am

    Sorry pal but you cant legislate you way out of Hell

    Report Post » burnteye86  
  • biohazard23
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 7:43am

    OMG, he needs to put on his Big Girl panties, take a Midol, and STHU. Holy cow, talk about thin-skinned…..

    Report Post » biohazard23  
    • Zipit
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 8:24am

      This guy should worry more about going for a swim in the ocean! Quite “walrus” like, very blubbery, and in danger of being eaten by an orca!

      Report Post »  
  • bdandsl
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 7:34am

    These people are out of control! It’s all about ME, ME, ME!! Get over yourself and try all little of that ‘Christian moral tone’ and you’d be a nicer person. God bless you.

    If our rights are given to us by God and you don’t believe in God, do you still have rights?

    Report Post » bdandsl  
    • wvernon1981
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 11:27am

      You don’t have rights, effectively, outside that which you are granted by society.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:29pm

      @ WVERN…If your presupposition is that there is no God you are exactly right. Enter the holocaust of atheistic dictators that have killed approx. 150 million of their own people in modern times.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • wvernon1981
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 2:04pm

      It doesn’t matter whether there is a god or not. I have no presupposition here. It matters that if a god exists, it clearly does not care about defending human rights because it does not intervene to protect human rights. Therefore, EFFECTIVELY, humans grant rights to other humans.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 4:51pm

      WVERN…..If you have no presupposition then you have no position. If you have no position then you have nothing to say. Clearly, you asserted an opinon. Since you have asserted there is either no deity or one that does not intervene you do have a presupposition. However, there is absolutely no logical basis for your assertion. Rights are derived from the fact that as individual sentient beings we possess dignity because we simply exist. That dignity then demands that each individual sentient being be treated in a certain prescribed manner that both protects and reflects that entity’s value and dignity. However, to remain a sentient being one must be able to choose to either extend those rights to others or not otherwise they cease to exist as an individual sentient being. This means that compulsory protection of those individuals rights is not possible and maintain the individual. This is where morality comes into play. The “ought’s“ and ”not’s” of relationships between individuals, groups, and societies. Therefore, to lay blame at the feet of a deity for the actions of the individual’s failure to follow and comply with morality that seeks to protect those rights is illogical and flawed reasoning and fails to implicate the one truly responsible for the transgression of “rights”, namely man. Thank you…..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • antitheist
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 4:59pm

      @Sleazy

      If you’re going purely by numbers then the four letters have both Mao and Stalin beat.

      Report Post » antitheist  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 6:00pm

      Joseph Stalin – 42,672,000
      Mao Zedong – 37,828,000
      Chiang Kai-shek – 10,214,000
      Vladimir Lenin – 4,017,000
      Hideki Tojo – 3,990,000
      Pol Pot – 2,397,0003

      Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”

      R. J. Rummel’s work Lethal Politics and Death by Government:

      Thank you…..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 6:23pm

      @ ANTI….I’m afraid that is not the case at all my friend. An interesting source of truth on the matter is Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature, which is an astonishingly low 6.98% of all wars. However, when one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage is cut by more than half to 3.23%.

      The top three largest examples, christian atrocities are thought to be the Crusades of the Middle Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, and the burning of witches. Scholars estimate that the Crusades of the middle ages cost from 58,000 to 133,000 lives. The most realistic figure for the Spanish Inquisition puts the total killed from AD1480 to AD1808 at up to 31,912. Finally, records indicate that the number of witches killed may be over 30,000. Some argue that records don’t tell everything and suggest that maybe even 100,000 were killed. These three events, totaling over 264,000 killed, are thought to be the largest atrocities perpetrated by one or another form of Christendom. This pales in comparison to either of your named leaders individually……thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Bruce P.
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 7:05pm

      SLEAZYHIPPOS — oh yes, the old “these communists were atheists, therefore atheism is responsible for these deaths” canard.

      Yes, those men were atheist. But all of them were also short. So, by your logic, all of these communists were short men, therefore, shortness caused these deaths.

      Both Stalin and Lenin had mustaches. Therefore, mustaches causes these deaths.

      Report Post » Bruce P.  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 10, 2012 at 10:11pm

      @ BRUCE…..Funny you should invoke logic given your response. Neither height nor personal fascial hair grooming have a direct or indirect causal relationship with political actions and philosophies and their consequences. However, one’s worldview ALWAYS (that is ALWAYS) effects ones political views/actions when in a position of power to exercise that worldview. This worldview is then also DIRECTLY (that is DIRECTLY always) shaped by how a person answers 4 very basic questions:

      (1) Who am I? – what is the nature, task and significance of human beings?
      (2) Where am I? – what is the origin and nature of the reality in which human beings find themselves?
      (3) What’s wrong? – how can we account for the distortion and brokenness in this reality?
      (4) What’s the remedy? – how can we alleviate this brokenness, if at all?

      If you do not understand how someone‘s sincerely held belief of whether God exists or not effects the manner in which they answer these 4 questions then I’m afraid you just haven’t studied adequately my friend. Using your “logic”, I could say it is illogical to blame Radical Islam proponents on the beliefs and understanding they possess of Allah. You need to find a more insightful atheist website to develop your arguments because that one isn’t very logical. Sorry my friend not wanting to be argumentative, but that really was a flawed comment without any critical thought. It had the aroma of a reflexive copy and paste response. Thank you..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DLV
      Posted on August 11, 2012 at 2:25am

      Bruce- how does it feel to be owned twice in one article comments section? haha

      Report Post » DLV  
  • thetruthlives
    Posted on August 10, 2012 at 7:33am

    what a big douche….!!!!!

    Report Post »  
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