Are Church Confessions Safe? Upcoming Court Case May Set Precedent
- Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:41pm by
Tiffany Gabbay
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It is being called a case that could set national precedent. A three-judge Michigan Court of Appeals panel plans to hear arguments Thursday about whether a pastor can testify to a confession he took which may have revealed an admission of child sexual assault.
According to court documents, Samuel Bragg confessed in 2009 to the Rev. John Vaprezsan at Metro Baptist Church in Belleville about the 2007 assault of a 9-year-old girl when he was 15. Last March, Vaprezsan testified against Bragg, who is charged with first-degree criminal sexual conduct.
CBS Detroit adds:
Bragg was 17 years old in 2009 when he went with his mother to speak with Vaprezsan. They deny that he made a confession. After earlier hearing an allegation from the girl’s mother and then speaking with Bragg, Vaprezsan gave a statement to police.
Vaprezsan’s testimony came over the objections of Bragg’s attorney at a preliminary examination in 34th District Court in Romulus. The girl also testified.
Farmington Hills attorney Ray Cassar, who represents Bragg, said putting a pastor on the stand eliminates a person’s presumption of innocence.
“If the pastor is allowed to testify, think about what it would do to the burden of proof. I mean, you’re presumed innocent and if a pastor gets up on the stand to testify, most of the jury members are going to take his word, and I think that eliminates the presumption of innocence,” Cassar told WWJ’s Roberta Jasina.
Bragg was ordered to stand trial, but Wayne County Circuit Court Judge Cynthia Gray Hathaway later dismissed Vaprezsan’s testimony. Hathaway argued that the pastor’s testimony violated state law.
Vaprezsan said, ”I don’t consider the repercussions, I just try to help people.”
Cassar, meanwhile, maintains that the information shared in a confessional setting with clergy must remain privileged.
“The issue here is when you speak with a pastor or clergy of any type, the presumption and the rule is that communication is privilege. We want people to go and seek out counseling and talk to their pastors about issues and problems, and we want them to do so without the fear that that information could later on be used against them,” he said.
Assistant Wayne County Prosecutor Teri Odette argued, however, that Bragg’s confession wasn’t confidential because his mother was there, and it had nothing to do with church discipline or spiritual guidance.
“The communication was initiated by the pastor – not by the defendant – and was done to ascertain whether the victim was telling the truth, not for the purpose of spiritual guidance,” said Odette.
Bragg, who is free on bond, faces a mandatory 25-year prison sentence if convicted.
“I think that religious leaders around the state of Michigan, if they knew about this case, they would be very upset and I think that they would be very vocal as to what dangerous precedent this could set,” said Cassar.
The Michigan law governing clergyman-penitent issues are:
- MCL 600.2156: No minister of the gospel, or priest of any denomination whatsoever, or duly accredited Christian Science practitioner, shall be allowed to disclose any confessions made to him in his professional character, in the course of discipline enjoined by the rules or practice of such denomination.
- MCL 767.5a(2): Any communications between attorneys and their clients, between members of the clergy and the members of their respective churches, and between physicians and their patients are hereby declared to be privileged and confidential when those communications were necessary to enable the attorneys, members of the clergy, or physicians to serve as such attorney, member of the clergy, or physician.
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Comments (101)
SteamedinMichigan
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 11:15pmJust another step in the long process of attacking religion at its core. That’s exactly what we need- fear to confess our sins…..that’ll get us “right with God”. Nice!
Makes me sick
Report Post »banjarmon
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:55am“No minister of the gospel, or priest of any denomination whatsoever, or duly accredited Christian Science practitioner, shall be allowed to disclose any confessions made to him in his professional character,”…..
Report Post »WAS Rev. John Vaprezsan in his professional character?????????
KathleenElsie
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 11:59amPeople of FAITH are being attacked at every turn. If we don’t stand up to government rules in our religious communities we will loose all our rights. Our FAITH should not be hidden behind the doors of our homes.
Report Post »Ruler4You
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:44pmThere was a time when we were told the Constitution was the law of the land. That we should send our children to fight and die for our ‘principles.’ But today, we are told we have a dysfunctional constitution.
The thing about “truth” seems to be it doesn’t last beyond average recall. If that long. Government “IS” presently attacking Christianity in the wide open, while shielding islam behind her skirts.
If you are expecting government to protect your rights, you have missed the point of the entire effort. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are “limitations” on government. People fight for their Rights. Not governments. People will fight in ‘support’ of their form of government. But governments don’t fight in support of the people. (select people, yes).
Why do you have to limits government? Look at the size and scope of ours and see if you can figure it out. There WILL be a time where nothing you can say or think or do won’t be monitored. That includes confession.
Report Post »granolajohn
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 6:16pmIt makes me sick to think that anyone could go free over a child molestation because a pastor will not testify. It makes me even more sick that people like you think thats ok.
Report Post »Secret Squirrel
Posted on February 10, 2012 at 2:50pm.
Report Post »I think the story is misleading.
It shows a Catholic confessional,
yet the pastor in question is Baptist, and the so-called
confession was an admission to a member of the clergy..
REPUB1
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:36pm@MrMagoo
Report Post »confess to a MAN???? Repentance is the ONLY way to get your sins forgivin, directly to and from GOD through Jesus Christ .. a crime confess to the police, NO man can forgive Sin nor can a church… only GOD through Jesus Christ. trust a priest or pastor if its a crime??? thats a good question… you are in his hands if you choose to do so but not very smart. its not like a lawyer to a client …
TXPilot
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 11:02pmKinda convenient, that the government is going to test the limits of confession, using a subject we can all get behind….abuse of children……But, I fear that they are just testing the waters, because if they get this, they will expand it. After all, almost anything considered a sin, that someone might confess in private, probably has some sort of law on the books somewhere with an appropriate civil or criminal penalty just waiting to be applied………truly dangerous territory here folks….
Report Post »MCDAVE
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:12am@txpilot That about sums it up..good post
Report Post »TXPilot
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:33am@MCDAVE……thanks for the compliment.
Report Post »Common.Cents
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 1:13am@TXpilot i thought the exact same thing. That is how it always happens. Why do they even bother with it, if there is already a law regarding this situation anyway?
Report Post »teddlybar
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 1:55am“Assistant Wayne County Prosecutor Teri Odette argued, however, that Bragg’s confession wasn’t confidential because his mother was there”
The defendant was a minor at the time. Of course his parent was there! Whether this was done under the color of “the Confessional” or not, there needs to be a close guard kept on the right to have some counsel done under the sanctity of clerical privacy. I’m with TXPILOT on this one. Piercing the clerical veil, whether implied or explicit is treading dangerous ground.
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 2:29am@ TX
I agree. The sanctity of the confessional is a cornerstone of the Catholic church. It has always been this way and has always been accepted as such without question.
If priests hearing confessions are subsequently required to testify as to that confession, then there will be damned few confessions from that point on – to the detriment of the church and the faithful. I see absolutely no difference between a priest in his formal capacity and a lawyer or doctor.
As an atheist, I obviously don’t confess to priests, but I do understand the importance of the sanctity of the confessional.
It seems to me that this is another probing experiment by socialists who seem to be constantly looking for ways to weaken the power of the church – and thereby conservatism.
Catholics (with the support of other denominations) should kick back hard.
Report Post »TXPilot
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 3:02am@NZKIWI……you are correct…..you don’t have to be Catholic or even Christian to see how insidious this is. The radical left is constantly using a plan of “divide and conquer”. They attack one group or another, or try to pit them against each other, because divided we are all weaker and easier to defeat, than for them to try a direct assault against us all simultaneously. This is not a Catholic issue, because if they get what they want here, they will eventually use it to take the rights of everyone else away as well.
Report Post »TXMD
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 9:12am@TXPILOT. I’m with you, brother. In this new century of ours nothing seems to happen without a hidden agenda. In the Catholic Church throughout history, priests have gone to their death before revealing contents of a “Confession.” I hope to God that the current crop of priests have the intestinal fortitude to do the same – on this and on everythiing else that is coming down on Christianity from this regime of evil.
Report Post »ApostolicIlx
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 8:34pmI’d guess you are unfamiliar with the Roman Catholic Church and the Rite of Confession. You should look it up if you are interested. Basically, a priest can absolve you of your sins in this world. Additionally, according to Canon Law he may not reveal what is said in the confessional to law enforcement, only to higher clergy. That is one of the better things about the Roman Catholic Church. They are sticklers for the rules.
Report Post »dontbotherme
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 9:03pm@repub1: John 20:22-23 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Report Post »REPUB1
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:36pm@MrMagoo
Report Post »are you kidding me??? confess to a MAN???? Repentance is the ONLY way to get your sins forgivin, directly to and from GOD through Jesus Christ .. a crime confess to the police, NO man can forgive Sin nor can a church… only GOD through Jesus Christ. trust a priest or pastor if its a crime??? thats a good question… you are in his hands if you choose to do so but not very smart. its not like a lawyer to a client …
DaveOregon
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:07pmThe sanctity of the confessional means a pastoer, father, etc. can not be compelled or forced by subpeona to testify about what he was told. That does not mean the priest/father can not testify about what was said – that is his choice and the choice of his superiors in the church. This is the stand of the Supreme Court – so the issue is one of volunteering to testify by the father/priest. The argument can be made that it’s he said-she said if the defendent says I never confessed to the priest. It’s the appearance of authority due to the priest/fathers position. BUT – let’s not go into defense where you can bring up every priest/father or other clergy’s convictions of pedophilia, rape etc. Tricky slope that priest put himself in – because the defense can make him the target by dealving into any gossip, history, claims, etc against him of molestation, inappropriate behavior etc.
Report Post »South Philly Boy
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:07pmNow here is the real reason for Separation of Church and state
Report Post »jhaydeng
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:23pmI agree! As long as the priest, etc., can give advice that tells the individual that they should turn themselves in I think his/her job is done!
Report Post »johnsell
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:03pmI think they have a point if it’s true that: “The communication was initiated by the pastor – not by the defendant – and was done to ascertain whether the victim was telling the truth, not for the purpose of spiritual guidance,”
If I’m not mistaken, confession is initiated by the confessor or spoken in a formal session and not initiated by the clergyman…. the fact that the mother was there and if the clergyman was asking the questions rather than inviting confession may violate the privileged and confidential communication.
On the other hand, it could be implied that it was thought to be a privileged and confidential communication unless they were told beforehand that the information to be received would not be privileged. Guess we will see.
Report Post »soybomb315
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:02pmwhat happens in the confessional – stays in the confessional
Report Post »GodWillPrevail
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 11:27pmFine.
But this was not in the confessional. The Priest was trying to find the perpetrator of this crime. The child did not ask to confess in private instead blurting out in front of his mother what he had done.
The clergy involved should decide whether it was confidential or not. Had he done the same thing in front of an attorney that was not his attorney the attorney would also have to testify.
If this case goes against the Priest then Clergy could no longer testify in court about almost anything.
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 6:07amIt was a Protestant Pastor – notice the term Baptist Church. Baptists don’t have confessionals like Catholics. You go to the Pastors office or another location – perhaps he comes to your house but the act of confession is the same and is protected
Report Post »bigspike
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 6:40amthe Baptist Church does not HAVE a confessional…however, if the defendant is a member of that particular church, what he says to the minister IS privileged
Report Post »Dismayed Veteran
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 10:13amWhile I am a Catholic, I believe that when Protestant pastors provide spiritual advise to a church member concerning a moral issue that constitutes the seal of the confession.
The article sounds like the pastor was trying to verify the person committed abuse. That does not sound like a “confession” in any religious sense. However, I do see the continuing erosion of our Constitution taking place alone I don’t believe the pastor should testify beyond envoking the seal of the confessional.
Report Post »Tresse
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:59pmIt is my understanding that you can confess even murder to a priest and he cannot break silence. What he must do is tell the person that they will not be forgiven until they admit to authorities of his crime. So in this sense he will not be forgiven by the priest.
Report Post »GodWillPrevail
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 11:29pmUnless you confess to a future crime.
Then the Priest is required to tell police especially murder.
Report Post »Melika
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:39amAs far as I know, the only priests that have that edict are Catholic priest. Maybe I’m an ignorant heathen, but I’m pretty sure only Catholics have the sacrament of Confession (with a capital “C”). They were the originators of the practice and they have gone to the mat before to protect the sanctity of the confessional. It also doesn’t matter if someone is confessing to a future crime, a Catholic priest can NOT in any way break the vows of the sacrament, even in an indirect way. You can pass whatever laws you want about it, priests answer to a higher authority. This guy is a Baptist, I don’t think they have a formal confession like Catholics. I know there are many Christian sects that consider a confession to be one that is made in public to the congregation, so it would really depend on what this particular church practices. Michigan law seems to clearly state that regardless of affiliation, these conversations are confidential, so it doesn’t matter if the minister is jumping up & down in the isles to testify, it would be against the law for him to do so – same as for an attorney. If the state Supreme upholds the ruling & allows the laws to stand as written, the minister could have opened himself up for a civil suit for breach & any other penalties the state would want to levy (though I doubt they would open that can of worms).
Report Post »Midwest Blonde
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:59pmI’m torn on this one – child abuse is horrid – and SHOULD be reported, regardless of where the information came from. I guess if you want to keep your sins private, don’t confess.
Other professionals are required by law, to report child abuse. Why not clergy?
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:32pmReligious freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »spirited
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:50pmTrusting and believing a priest honors “the vow of silence” as it pertains to the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is very important.
>Silence is golden.
Report Post »WeekendAtBernankes
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:57pmIf a Muslim confessed to his mullah that he raped a child would you be so willing to let it slide?
Be honest.
Report Post »stereojoe
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:03pmIt would be the duty of the confidant to encourage the confessor to turn him/herself into the proper authorities to make right with God. Any good Priest would encourage the right on behalf of the sinner but would, indeed, keep his vow of silence.
The same opinion would stand with any religion. I believe it would be the duty of the mullah to encourage the confessor to turn himself into those who govern and judge on behalf of the State. However, I would ask you to provide the evidence to us where mullah’s are bound by such an oath.
Report Post »soybomb315
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:04pmWeekendatbernakes
interesting. i’m jealous of your tag
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 1:04amLeave it to religion to be more concerned about a divine forgiveness and justice, then an earthly justice.
“Congrats, your child molestation has been forgiven……and yeah we gave some money to the kids you raped. We’re all even….except for the psyche of kid who put his trust in you and then you molested him. Yeah, he’s probably screwed up forever……but we gave him some money!”
Report Post »spirited
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:43pmHitchcock’s 1953 “I Confess”
Is about a priest (played by Montgomery Clift) in Quebec who hears the confession of church sexton O.E. Hasse.
“I…killed…a man” whispers Hasse.
>Bound by the laws of the Confessional, the Priest is unable to turn Hasse over to the police.
Report Post »stereojoe
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:42pmAnd you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved. – St. Matthew 11:22
And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come. – St. Matthew 11:23
Report Post »snooop1e
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:38pmJesus commissioned the 12 Apostles saying “Whosoever’s sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever’s sins you retain, they are retained.” (John 20:23) How could they forgive or retain sins if they didn’t know what sins had been committed? James 5:16 says “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” 1 John 5:16 tells us “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that” Pretty straight forward.
Report Post »BOMUSTGO
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:26pm1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Report Post »Jesus is our great High Priest.Not a man on earth.
Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
FreedomWI
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:22pmAnother attack on religion? What happens when a priest refuses to reveal what he’s been told? Will the government start putting priests in jail for not revealing what is confessed to them?
Report Post »spirited
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:54pmPlead the 5th
>Double indemnity.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:20pmNot a shocker, more people willing to condone and not report criminal acts in the guise of religion.
Report Post »Micmac
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:19pmAnything revealed to a clergy, in the confessional or not, as a spiritual and religious guide, should be a protected conversation. As stated above, if not then people that truly need help will not be able to turn to the clergy. The fact that the clergyman has internal conflicts is his own problem and maybe he needs to find another profession. Even though the act of the kid was horrific, and I’d like to take him out myself, the future consequences are uncalculable.
NoBama 2012
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:25pmLeave it to religion to take the “NO ABORTION!” stance…..and the “PROTECT THE RAPISTS!” stance.
Report Post »clw4200
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:16pmBaptists have the sacrament of reconciliation? I know you will not get a Catholic Priest to violate the sanctity of the Confessional.
Report Post »sizzler2220
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:04pmYou shouldn’t confess to another human.
Report Post »mils
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:14pmtrue.
Your God should be your only “confidential” confessor…absolutely no one here can offer you forgivness..
We hear all the SCREAMING AT EACH OTHER ABOUT SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE….YET… the state is deciding a sacred practice of the church.
Report Post »… Next, lawyers, doctors…
USAMEDIC3008
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:15pmJesus is your intercessor.
Report Post »Call no man on earth your father
Your Father lives in Heaven
snooop1e
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:25pmJesus commissioned the 12 Apostles saying “Whosoever’s sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever’s sins you retain, they are retained.” (John 20:23) How could they forgive or retain sins if they didn’t know what sins had been committed? James 5:16 says “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” 1 John 5:16 tells us “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that” Pretty straight forward.
Report Post »soybomb315
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:27pmmore appropriately – you shouldnt seek forgiveness from another human…
Report Post »genennene
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:28pmWhose sins you forgive will be forgiven. Whose sins you retain will be retained.
Jesus’ instruction to the Apostles
Report Post »soybomb315
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:01pmgenennene
Report Post »First of all, if god is god – then why wouldnt we just confess to him? Second, jesus gave those instructions to his apostles – do you hold your local priest in the same regard as the people who talked and learned from jesus on a daily basis? Also, jesus was still alive – meaning that he had not died on the cross yet. Therefore they were under the old covenant still, which did include sacrifices and forgiveness from temple leaders and such. The biggest evidence against your argument is that the “catholic” system of forgiveness is essentially the same as the way it was done before jesus died on the cross (someone forgives FOR you)…My understanding of the new testament is that it is a higher calling – one that does not rely on man – and that god dwells within us
Katydidnt
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:01pmThe problem with only confessing to God alone, aside from it not being Biblical, see the scriptures quoted above where Jesus gives men the authority to forgive sins, and James saying you should confess your sins to one another, is that if you only talk to God. God tends to be made over into your image and likeness, not the other way around. We can be too hard on ourselves over things that are not serious, and then give ourselves a slide on things that are. Jeremiah says that the heart is deceitful above all things. God put in the requirement to confess our sins to one another, so that we don’t kid ourselves about what we are doing. No pne acheives any kind of greatness in atheletics without a coach, to act as if we do not need the support and wisdom that God places in those around us, is to divorce ourselves from the Body of Christ.
Report Post »Robert in Texas
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:59pmNo matter which way the gavel falls on this one – someone isn’t going to like the answer. Boy do we now live in a screwed up society… am I right? Boy have we as a country really gone downhill…
Report Post »ThoreauHD
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:58pmThe only people with confession as a sacrament are the Catholics. Don’t worry about it. Most of you think all the apostles and saints are mormons. Just derpity Derp your way through life. That’s it!
Report Post »Abbyreads
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:04pmIgnoring the latter half of your comment, I find it prudent to point out that Lutherans and other Protestants do have confession as a sacrament, however with Protestants it is usually not an interaction with a minister, but a private self-admonition.
Report Post »soybomb315
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:37pmabbyreads
Report Post »i dont follow all the catholic lingo (confession/intercession/sacrament) since i just read the bible. I know that god wants us to seek forgiveness and will forgive a person when he/she seeks it. why does man turn such things into rocket science
Melika
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:51amSoybomb315:
Report Post »I think the reason why the idea of confessing one’s sins took hold is for the simple fact that people who commit sins WANT to tell someone. It’s a first step in acknowledging they did wrong & towards penance. It is simple human nature. Sure, it’s great to talk to God and say -”Hey forgive me I’m really sorry.” It‘s a bit different to walk in and verbally tell someone all the horrible things you’ve done. It’s also a bit like have a confidant who can look at the situation without being emotionally involved, as all your friends and acquaintances will be. Personally, I don’t want anyone telling me their sins, it’s TMI. Think of it as free psychological counseling. Catholic priests are trained in counseling & psychological techniques and many people find the privacy of facing their demons with a representative of God to be much easier than doing it in public.
Robert in Texas
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:57pmBe damned if they do… Be damned if they don’t… No matter which way the gavel falls on this one… someone isn’t going to like the results… Boy do we now live in an odd society… or what?
Report Post »Collbuzz
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:56pmWhat is said in the confessional booth ISN’T safe, it’s SACRED!!!! Government: Keep the hell OUT!
Report Post »spirited
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:57pmNo punn intended
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:56pmHere’s an idea. Confess your sins to the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Skip the middle man nonsense and keep it Biblical.
Report Post »snooop1e
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:37pmJesus commissioned the 12 Apostles saying “Whosoever’s sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever’s sins you retain, they are retained.” (John 20:23) How could they forgive or retain sins if they didn’t know what sins had been committed? James 5:16 says “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” 1 John 5:16 tells us “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that” I think if it’s in the Bible
Report Post »MrMagoo
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:02pmThanks TRONINTHEMORNING.You got it.Back in the day,there may have been some confidentiality between a priest and a church member.Those days are long gone.
Report Post »Coming from a confirmed Catholic,confession was always the hardest,especially as a little kid.I sweated it many times.I got old and wise through the years.Even the Pope wouldn’t be trusty enough to me now.I‘ll leave my sins and transgressions to God while I’m begging for forgiveness on my knees and praying for His guidance.Quiet moments between Him and me.
TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 10:33pmI can only sympathize, MRMAGOO; as I was not involved in the catholic traditions. But, I did see my friends growing up; having to suffer through the power trip of the Catholic Church; lording over them. Many of them escaped the horror, some did not and are far from God. I think that made me more interested in the Truth and it certainly set me free. God bless you and everyone who has been through such trials.
Report Post »ConservativeHippie
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 8:18amThe Catholic Church does not lord anything over a person in confession. Most folks I know, myself included feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders after going to confession. I am not confessing to a man, but Christ Himself, whose representative here on earth is the priest. The sanctity of the the confessional cannot be breached for any reason. I cannot speak for other faiths rules on the confessional, if they even have one.
Report Post »LindzJ
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 12:57pmWhen a Catholic goes into the confessional, Christ IS the one who really and truly forgives the sins there…once for all right…the priest acts as a sort of physical stand-in (for lack of a better word) that Christ chose to use to administer forgiveness and grace. In so doing we know in a very real way we were receiving forgiveness and grace from Christ as described/supported by scriptural references from SNOOOP1E. We get the very real benefit of examining our conscience to prepare, to verbally acknowledge our failings and reaffirm our need for Christ, and finally we get to hear the words of Christ’s forgiveness audibly. There is real genius in this Christ instituted sacrament. It has evolved a little with time, in front of the congregation or not for example, but the basic framework has not. It involves admittance and heartfelt sorrow for the sins committed, and a firm resolve to sin no more and to avoid future temptations to sin….Christ perfects that action in sacrament in a way that is uniquely grace filled. We are absolutely forgiven in the eyes of God, but the effect of the sin still remains for sure…the whole body impacted by one persons sin…we should have a strong desire to attempt to right the wrong.
Report Post »This is an imperfect explanation, but I hope those that are non-catholic may come to understand the sacrament a little better and see that maybe it’s not such a strange or bad thing.
Sugabee
Posted on February 9, 2012 at 2:27pmGood job, Lindzj! As a former Protestant who has ‘crossed the Tiber’, I appreciate the rich history and Tradition that the Catholic Church provides. She is not without her warts, but neither is any denomination. We need to be striving to seek unity and helping each other in this time of great crisis – NOT dividing each other through insensitivity. We Catholics rejoice that you know the Lord Jesus, just as you as Protestants can rejoice in our knowledge and love of Jesus. ‘Nuff said.
Report Post »maroon67
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:55pmThis is the evil one infiltrating. Prep your souls!
http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/message-of-warning-to-world-leaders/
Report Post »ashtongramp
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 8:49pmBad world I tell yeah
Report Post »sonseeker
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:09pmAlways has been…that‘s ’cuase ther’s people in it.
Report Post »sonseeker
Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:10pmAlways has been…that’s ’cause there’s people in it.
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