Faith

Are More Americans Now ‘Mixing and Matching’ to Form Their Own Religious Experiences?

Are More Americans Now Mixing Faith Traditions to Form Their Own Religions?Perhaps America really is becoming a cookie-cutter society. In his book, “Futurecast,” faith and religion expert George Barna claims that more Americans than ever are crafting their own religious experiences.

“We are a designer society,” he explains. “We want everything customized to our personal needs — our clothing, our food, our education.” Apparently, Americans now also want to have their religions tailored to their wants and needs. In his book, Barna tracks changes among U.S. Christians (the focus of this particular literature) from 1991 until 2011.

Back in 2009, Barna was already discussing the mix-and-match nature of some Americans’ religious beliefs. The following comes from The Barna Group web site:

“Consequently, more and more people are engaged in hybrid faiths, mixing elements from different historical eras and divergent theological perspectives,” Barna stated. “In some ways, we are creating the ultimate ecumenical movement, where nothing is deemed right or wrong, and all ideas, beliefs and practices are assigned equal validity. Everyone is invited to join the dialogue, enjoy the ride, and feel connected to a far-reaching community of believers. Screening or critiquing what that community believes is deemed rude and inappropriate. Pragmatism and relativism, rather than any sort of absolutism, has gained momentum.”

While almost all of the indicators in the surveys Barna most recently analyzed showed religious beliefs and behaviors decreasing (a trend that meshes with the increase in atheism, albeit a small one, the nation has experience), there were two indicators that showed intriguing increases.

First, more people claim that they’ve accepted Jesus Christ as their savior and that they expect to go to heaven. Additionally, the proportion of people saying they haven’t been to church in the past six months outside of special occasions like weddings or funerals increased (24 percent back in 1991 as opposed to 37 percent today).

The first increase will empower believers, but the second will probably scare churches and pastors, alike. But Barna claims that it’s these people — the church leaders — who may actually be responsible for this decrease in church attendance.

“People say, ‘I believe in God. I believe the Bible is a good book. And then I believe whatever I want,’” he said. But these same people find themselves bored in church. He continues, “They look at church and wonder, ‘Jesus died for this?’”

As time goes on these people, though they believe in the Bible and in Christ, apparently don’t find the need to be tied down to a congregation or a denomination. Thus, Barna says that every subgroup in America – regardless of race, age, gender and region – is experiencing a disconnect when it comes to religious cohesion.

But beyond a lack of cohesion, there also appears to be a mix-and-match mentality taking form. In fact, some are even questioning if a “god” is needed at all in religion. As Cathy Lynn Grossman writes:

And it’s not only Christians sampling hopscotch spirituality. The Jewish magazine Moment has an “Ask the Rabbis” feature that consults 14 variations of Judaism, “and there are many,” said editor and publisher Nadine Epstein.

“The September edition of Moment asks ‘Can there be Judaism without God?’ And most say yes. It’s incredibly exciting. We live in an era where you pick and choose the part of the religion that makes sense to you. And you can connect through culture and history in a meaningful way without necessarily religiously practicing,” Epstein said.

In 2009, the Associated Press reported on a Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life study that indicated similar findings as well as a major growth in the number of Americans who reported having a religious of mystical experience:

Though the U.S. is an overwhelmingly Christian country, significant minorities say they hold beliefs of the sort found at Buddhist temples or New Age bookstores. Twenty-four percent of those surveyed overall and 22 percent of Christians say they believe in reincarnation, the idea that people will be reborn in this world again and again.

As for the significant numbers who visit more than one place of worship, it’s not just an occasional visit while on vacation or for special events like weddings and funerals.

It will be interesting to see how this trend along with the increase in non-believers plays out. In the end, though Americans may be blending their own religious traditions, there’s no telling exactly how this will take shape. Still, the concept, itself, is a fascinating one.

(h/t RNS, via Washington Post)

Comments (212)

1 2 3 4
  • Tired of Code Names
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:37pm

    The “Original” Martin Luther back in 1587 took on a very corrupt church that viewed themselves as a theocracy. That would be the Catholic Church. Posted the 97 thesis on the church door and complainded about how they were ignoring and even twisting real scripture. Only wanted to get the church to move back to the concept that Jesus preached…..”Grace alone…Faith Alone…Scripture Alone”. Martin Luther did not want to and fought against the Protestant Reformation. Marin Luther desired a reformation of the Christian Church….commonly called and taken over by the Catholics of that time. But…mostly….he just wanted to get back to the Christ like principals. Grace alone…Faith alone and Scripture alone. Look it up. The Book of Concord. The Catholic Theocracy of that time would not even consider his concepts and excommunicated Martin Luther….Placing a death sentence on Martin Luther for anyone who was Catholic who encountered him to be able to kill him. Thankfully, the Catholics have woken up since then….but…the stubborness of the pope back then…and I purposefully did not captialize it because the pope is still just a MAN on this planet….was more about building his theocracy than really keeping grace, faith and scripture.

    Seriously….back then, they did not even preach the gospel…..just told the uneducated the old testement which is the law pointing out they were sinners. Look it up. It’s true history….overlooked and being rewritten.

    Report Post »  
    • Tired of Code Names
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:55pm

      Oh…and you can credit Martin Luther for publishing the very first Bible in a language other than Latin or Greek so that the commoner could read it for themselves. He was persecuted for that mis deed by the Catholic Church of that time as well. Anyone want to guess what language the Bible was first translated into other than for the scholars who could read Latin or Greek?

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 10:10pm

      Vey good @Tired of Codes

      Woman=Church
      Beast=Nation

      Woman riding a Beast is a church/State power. Papal Rome also reigned for exactly 1260 years, took a head wound, and then had it healed in the Lateran Treaty. (Vatican became Church-State) 

      What is sad is the Protest ant churches today have become a mimic or IMAGE of the Papal Rome that speaks (legislates) thru Government. The Vatican thru the Club of Rome, which has divided the world into ten kingdoms, issues policy the USA accepts and influences our churches. 

      History is an awesome thing and the Bible is so accurate it is undeniable if we only open our eyes to see it’s truths. 

      Good post man! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Libertyluvnmomma
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 10:52pm

      Can anyone give me the scriptural reference to purgatory?
      I see some people get degrees in theology in order to explain it to their kids. I just haven’t found it in my Bible yet.
      I thought when jesus died for my sins that would be enough. But now I‘m hearing I gotta continue to pay for them because I couldn’t be righteous enough. I think it is the Trent Doctrine..??

      Report Post » Libertyluvnmomma  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 11:11pm

      @Liberty lovin momma

      What you talkin bout Willis? 

      Purgatory is Catholic Doctrine and is false doctrine. Just as Hell as a place is Catholic Doctrine and a false doctrine. 

      Jesus is the only person to intercede for our sin and belief and repentance followed by obedience is how it’s obtained. 

      This is why you do not find it in the Bible……It is not true…

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Yaakov
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 11:59pm

      Well, the books I go by were written in Hebrew, by a man named Moses at the command of G!D. The truth to tell is that when you choose against G!D, you sin, for most things –if you return to HIM(G!) with all of your heart(really mean that you repent and stop doing evil(against G!D) you are Righteous. Forgiven, Clean up until you sin that then you must repair it with G!D. The Writings of Moses, also called the Torah(first five books of the bible) are the law and have not been changed in 3,000+ years in the writing.

      Not new, very true and time is almost gone. Start reading.

      Report Post » Yaakov  
    • Nehemiah6.3
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:30am

      Ginger is not Ginger anymore, she’s Marianne, Marianne is not Marianne anymore she’s Ginger.

      If the Christians say they can have religion without God, then i think they have become atheists. If Christians believe in reincarnation then they have become Buddhists and Hindu and not Christian anymore. Satan has fooled people into thinking that good is evil and evil is good.

      I am dumbfounded at how people actually think they can have religion the way they want. Doesn’t God or Jesus have a say anymore on the truth about them? Is it now that man can tell God what to do?
      We now have the ax telling the tree it is going to chop down the tree without the man to swing it. This all goes to show me that we are truly getting close to the 2nd coming of Christ. The people on this earth are ripening in wickedness getting closer to destroying themselves.

      I think our Father in Heaven is saddened by his children forgetting Him and out right telling Him He is not important or is not needed anymore.

      I for one, will tell you here that I know God lives!!! I know Jesus Christ Lives!!!! They are active in my life and the lives of those who love them, and recognize that we need them in our lives. I can do nothing except God gives me the breath to do it.
      I pray for all of you who do not know this in your own life. You can if you want it bad enough to recognize the truth.

      Report Post » Nehemiah6.3  
    • jojj0
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:39am

      hey tired of code names, at the time the present languages were still being formed, and Latin or Greek were the language for writing and the educated.

      Report Post »  
    • jojj0
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:43am

      @ Okie from Muskgee or whatever,http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm ought to explain the Catholic view on Purgatory, scroll down a bit.

      -Facts above all else-

      Report Post »  
    • Eliasim
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:08am

      Yeah I know and they used to sell forgiveness and prayers and all sorts of crooked things. It’s old news: the Catholic church is corrupt. But then what do you expect when Jesus named Peter “The stone” in front of Andrew and Philip, but Nathaniel was not present for that, and was as a lion’s whelp away from the kill. And why would it surprise any one that the churches are wrong, when in Revelation they are told to go back to their first love because they are in the wrong? And why would it surprise anyone to know that the churches have been bastardized when even “Social Justice” and “Liberation Theology” has polluted the churches just in the last 100 years?

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:48am

      Yo Jo Jo

      You think John Paul calling hell being without God, like “life is hell”. WRONG

      If you think the Pope saying Purgatory is needing prayer because you half way believe in God. WRONG. 

      The BIBLE tells us Hell is spiritual death thru God’s fire that destroys the soul for good, eternity. 

      The Catholic Church has changed and covered many times for the lie of Purgatory and Hell. Would you like all the popes comments thru the years on this subject? Surely being “Christ” on Earth the pope knows how to interpret God’s Word, the Bible. If so why the contradictions? Exactly. 

      Come out of the Beast, the Mystery daughter of Babylon before the unmixed wrath of God is poured on her for her fornications with the Kings of the Earth. 

      Jesus is the only Christ and anyone declaring to be such, like the pope, is full of crap. Period. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:11am

      @Yaakov

      Greetings and blessings to you and your family. 

      Moses work is beautiful work as God worked wonderfully thru him. In modern Judaism do you not also use the Talmud? And the Talmud is writings of the Pharisees over Moses law, correct? Therefore your faith is based of the Pharisees thought…..

      Daniel the prophet is also observed and studied in Judaism but the notion of Daniels 70 weeks and the Messiah are thought to be futuristic, correct? Even though the Prophet of God gives exact dates to this events in Hebrew and Aramaic.  Dates that have already passed exactly when Jesus Christ lived physically on Earth and fulfilled. 

      Jesus is King and Messiah of Judaism and thru his mercy and grace as a true King rules he allowed Gentiles as myself the opportunity to eternal life, by keeping God’s Law and faith He is King of Judaism. Jesus is the God of Abraham, Moses and David and believing not in Him to believe the Pharisees is rejection of God. 

      I do pray He opens your eyes to see the King Jesus and His mercifulness and grace in which a true King reigns as He still reigns to this day. I am a Jew, thru the adoption of Jesus Christ’s blood, the Jewish Messiah and blood of David. I hope you choose belief in Jesus and become Jewish as well. My prayers are with you.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • danenut6
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 8:03am

      thank you for sharing!

      Report Post »  
    • Thomas
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 9:08am

      No religion has a monopoly on Truth. God is not a religion or a belief but a person (not a man) whom you get to know personally and trust.

      Illusion is that which appears, seems real, but then disappears like a mirage but Truth (reality) is that which is and has been always. Self is a delusion that mixes and dilutes Truth (reality) with illusion. Time is a word we use to describe illusion and its nature while Life is Truth and is always. Life is already Eternal but it is the deluded mind that mixes Life and time and then lives by the philosophy of “lifetime”. We have been given time in order to make a decision of which we want more Truth which brings us the nature of the Truth or more illusion which brings us the nature of illusion. Death is the result of the nature of illusion. We must reap what we sow. God simply doesn’t want us to wait til we die but to realize the Truth now and humble the time created and therefore illusory self identity for the sake of the Truth which is the imagless Spirit of Life our loving Father whom Jesus came to introduce us to and to teach us how to humble the self.

      Report Post » Thomas  
    • ltb
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:24am

      “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.” 1 Timothy 4:1-2.

      Report Post » ltb  
    • FAITH HOPE LOVE
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:37am

      @YAAKOV
      Do you not know that Jesus Christ was the END of the Mosaic Law? That since the Son of God has already come and paved the way thru His redemption solution-the innocent one dying for the guilty for all the sins of the world—do you not know that now we are the live the Protocal plan of God as a church age beleiver?
      @NEHEMIAH6.3
      JESUS IS GOD!!! The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE, the Trinity- co-equal, co-infinite, co-eternal, ONE member-three personalities
      @OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE
      You got FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE right and most of what you said historically-but we become “a new spritual species”, a “new creation in Christ”, I’m sorry my friend, you are NOT a JEW!

      And -on the articles’ subject….. Yes we are doing what it explained -mixing the truth with the lie! Man has his own solutions (that don’t work) his own plan (that will fail) and his own justification (that he will ultimately pay the price of) and continues to reject the true gospel of the Bible, God’s infallible word… Any substituion, anything added or taken away-is wrong! Any man who thinks he can pick out what he likes or finds suitable to give him the most freedom to do as he please and tries to line that up with what the commands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has given us-in His word (which is the mind of Christ)just wont cut it! This has been going on since the beginning of time..the further along the path we go, the closer we get to the end! MARANATHA-EVEN SO, COME LO

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:41am

      @Okie,
      If you’re trying to persuade our Jewish friend, you’re going about it all wrong. I have no doubt you believe Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) is the Christ/Messiah, the Only Begotten of the Father. You would do well to hear Him and follow his example (Mat 17:5).

      You claim you are a Jew (& a gentile :).. So would that be a religious Jew? Have you’ve returned to the Law? What is your scriptural defense of this position? Have you considered Rev 2:9 & 3:9?

      This notion that the Christian Church has replaced Israel is satanic. That gentile believers are Jews by faith is the leaven that leads to that doctrine. It even played a part in the holocaust as some “christians” turned a blind eye to the atrocities based on that notion (e.g. God had forsaken Jews for rejecting the Messiah).

      In Romans, Paul draws a distinction between Jews & gentiles. He tells gentile believers they are of the seed of Abraham by faith (father of the faithful). Abraham was not a Jew. In fact, he wasn’t even an Israelite (Jacob, i.e. Ya’akov – see the irony? – was the first Israelite – Gen 32:28). Jews claim Avraham by extension of blood (as the grandfather of Ya’akov, g-grandfather of Y’hudah).

      Jews are the natural branch, gen believers the unnatural branch grafted in. Israel is blind now in part for our sake but only for a time (Rom 11:25). Very soon Yeshua will once again show Himself Mighty in Israel & reveal His glory to the world – and the apostate “c

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:42am

      cont.

      The end has come upon us – we all (believers & religious Jews) need to repent and turn to God (call on His Name – Prov30:4; Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21, 4:10-12), who is our Salvation (PS 51). To the rest – believe Jesus Christ & follow Him (John 4:9-15) while you still have a chance, before the wrath of God is revealed to mankind.

      Pro 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:46am

      cont @Okie,

      Very soon Yeshua will once again show Himself Mighty in Israel & reveal His glory to the world – and the apostate “church” will stand in the way.

      The end has come upon us – we all (believers & religious Jews) need to repent and turn to God (call on His Name – Prov30:4; Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21, 4:10-12), who is our Salvation (PS 51). To the rest – believe Jesus Christ & follow Him (John 4:9-15) while you still have a chance, before the wrath of God is revealed to mankind.

      Pro 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

      Report Post »  
    • savedgeezer
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 11:00am

      You do know that Martin Luther was anti-semitic, don’t you? He did fight against a corrupt, and also anti-semitic church. Augustine, Tertullian, and even Chrysostom were haters of the Jewish people.
      Just search this out.
      Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies, and, “what shall we do with this damnable race we call the Jews”
      Chysostom wrote “Adversus Judaeos”(Greek kata Ioudaious, against the Jews) are a series of fourth century homilies by John Chrysostom that have been circulated by many groups to foster antisemitism.[1] James Parkes called the writing on Jews “the most horrible and violent denunciations of Judaism to be found in the writings of a Christian theologian.
      What was it God said, I will bless those that bless you, and I will curse those that curse you” .
      Just sayin’.

      Report Post » savedgeezer  
    • Francke
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:05pm

      Martin Luther posted his 95 Thesis (not 97) in 1517. Not 1587. And as far as a bible in the common language of the people, Greek WAS the common language when the NT was written, and Latin WAS the common language with Jerome translated the Vulgate. So not quite a “first” for Martin Luther.

      Report Post »  
    • Bearfoot
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:54pm

      Okie from muskogee,

      I have to jump in here because something you said. So much of the time I can ignore some statements and chalk it up to a lack of education and I let it pass. But you said this; “Jesus is the God of Abraham, Moses and David”.
      The Bible clearly states and it is not ambiguous in any way that Jesus, the foretold Messiah/Christ was sent to the earth to serve as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
      Jesus was God’s son, he was not the Almighty God Jehovah.
      The God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, David and all the other faithful servants of God knew this well.
      Genesis 6:3, Psalms 83:18, Isaiah 12:2, 26:4 – old king James Version

      Report Post » Bearfoot  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:20pm

      @Faith Hope Love

      If you are to have “faith” alone, why do we attend Church, which is a work? The Church perverted “work” into paying for sin with money, not “work” as action in following Christ. Legion the Demon had “faith” Jesus was Christ, was he saved? No. 

      Secondly, when you are adopted are you still the former family or are you transformed to the new family carrying that new families name? Jesus Christ adopted any Gentile into His family that believes in Him, therefore those who believe are Jewish. Those who do not believe are not Jewish, excommunicated or broken off the tree, however you want to say it. 

      If you would like the verses I will gladly provide from God’s Word.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:26pm

      @Bearfoot,

      It is you who is mistaken when you say “Jesus was God’s son, he was not the Almighty God Jehovah..”

      And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14)

      Jesus answered…”Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM!” Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:54-59)

      While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, “What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?” They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, “How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” And no man was able to answer him a word, neither did any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. (Matthew 22:41-46)

      Yeshua is and was the voice of the burning bush. He is YHVH

      Report Post »  
    • bsgram
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:38pm

      You know very little of Catholicism and Martin Luther…Catholicism is the religion of the Apostolic and Church Fathers, the early leaders of the Church. They learned the faith directly from the Apostles as well as St Paul through oral tradition. There was no “guide book” back then. Look up Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. These great men were Catholic and closer followers of Christ than Martin Luther ever was. These men are the root of the Catholic religion.

      Report Post »  
    • Bearfoot
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:51pm

      Luke21,

      Your confusion as to who our Lord Jesus is, is due to your adherence to the catholic trinity doctrine.
      I would suggest reading again in your own Bible, slowly and carefully, John chapter 17:1-5

      John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

      Report Post » Bearfoot  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:52pm

      Luke 21

      Where did I say “replace”? I did not. So you have been trained, by man, to believe anyone following God’s Law, Jewish ten commandments, and following the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, replaces ethnic Jews which is false. Does an adopted child replace a natural when both believe in their parents? NO, THEY BOTH ARE ACCEPTED AND OF THE SAME FAMILY. If the natural child excommunicates and does follow his parents they are not of the family. 

      Do you follow God‘s commandments or man’s commandments? I follow God’s and keep the 7th day holy.(Saturday) How about before you try to find a speck in my eye of “replace”, you find and pull that big plank of “replace” out of your own eye. You attend on the 1st day of the week don’t you? Man’s commandment and MARK, not God’s. 

      Romans tree is very clear. Draw a picture of it and you can not deny it’s truth. Is a grafted pecan branch into a walnut tree not part of the walnut tree? YES. 

      Talk about mixed theology…….The idea Jews will be magically turned to God was influenced and came from the Pharisees. It is false doctrine. Just as 7 years of tribulation is false doctrine and a lie as you can very easily see in Daniel the Prophet of God chapter 9 verse 26-27. AFTER 62 weeks the Messiah is cut off. After is not during or right at the end, after (Ashor) means after the 62 weeks are completely fulfilled. 

      So once you get that big ole plank of Man doctrine out of your eye, we will further continue this conversat

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:59pm

      When will we learn that religion CANNOT save us? Neither can any man (save the God-Man Jesus Christ).

      Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment… Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you… For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Cor 1

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:10pm

      Bear foot

      Hello….Feel free to jump in anytime you wish. Before talking about who’s educated more let us just talk and educate ourselves around God Word. 

      Jesus, God in the flesh (human form), is God. Just as h2o in liquid state is the same as h2o in solid form and is the same as h2o in vapor form. All 3 are h2o but all 3 are different and perform different functions. 

      Give me a few for rain to clear, satellite internet, and I‘ll post God’s Word. 

      Jesus (liquid form) is God of David. They just didn’t get to see God in that form but brought Him about through belief in God. (Solid form)

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:22pm

      @ Bearfoot,

      Wrong again. I get my information from the Word of God. Nor am I catholic. Though a catholic or a Jew who puts his faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior (by grace, through faith, not works lest any man boast – Eph 2) is my brother. “Jehovah’s witnesses” on the other hand are not for they deny the deity of Yeshua. The Son of God is God, because He is the very same substance of His Father – who also is God. The “Shema” Duet 6:4 Hear O’ Israel, YHVH your El’oheem (plural) is ONE YHVH.

      Jesus Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN (same kind) of The Father – both are God. Both are Lord. They are one in kind, thought, and purpose. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the trinity is not catholic, it is Scriptural. The son of a dolphin, is a dolphin. The Son of God IS GOD. John 17 does not contradict that. And John 1 makes it clear:

      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

      He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

      But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

      And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:11-14)

      For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

      Yo

      Report Post »  
    • FAITH HOPE LOVE
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:40pm

      @ OKIE FROM MUSCOKEE
      As far as your reference to someone called “Legion the Demon”, I‘m sorry but I’ve never heard of him. Faith Alone in Christ Alone means beleiving on the accomplished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross, where He paid the penalty of sin for all mankind. I would have to assume that this demon you speak of did not. After all, Satan himself knows God is God but rejected him. No one goes to hell for their sins. The Lord Jesus Christ died for them so they are paid for. People die physically and go to Hell because of their own arrogance-for NOT accepting the free gift of salvation.
      Union with Christ takes place at the moment of salvation when every beleiver is identified with Christ in His death, burial, and ressurection. The union is eternal, delivers from the power of sin and death and provides a spiritual life for every beleiver. The beleiver shares everything Christ is and has, including eternal life,(1Jn.5:11-12);righteousness(2 Cor. 5:21); election (Eph.1:3-4);predestination (Eph.1:5-6);ADOPTION (Gal. 3:26);heirship(Rom. 8:16-17);priesthood(1 Pet.2:5,9);santification (1Cor.1:2);royalty(2 Tim.2:11-12). This doctrine explains the forsenic status, temporal existence, and eternal future of every Church Age beleiver. We are positionally set apart as adopted sons but I have yet to find a single verse that tells me I am now a Jew.

      Report Post »  
    • Bearfoot
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:46pm

      The Trinity Doctrine has its roots in the Catholic Church. The Holy Scriptures do not teach it, nor did Jesus teach it.
      Research it, find out, and make sure of what we believe. What was the Counsel of Nicea?

      I want to apologize to Okiefrommuskogee in that I intimated he was uneducated. I actually enjoy his comments as he is educated and he expresses himself well. But all of us, me included, can get more education, right? :-)

      Report Post » Bearfoot  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:51pm

      @Okie,
      You didn’t say replace – you implied it when you said you were a Jew (after calling yourself a gentile). Anyway I fear we cannot carry on a coversation because you are all over the board. Your interpretation of scripture leaves me scraching my head. I applaud you for your defense of Jesus Christ as God and Messiah, but the rest of your doctrine is frankly screwed up – badly. My recommendation to you: lay off the 7th day adventist/Ellen G. White koolaid – doctrine of man as you like to call it – and stick to Scripture alone.

      Report Post »  
    • scarebear83
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 3:02pm

      @ Tired- Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone? That is impossible. If it’s by grace alone it is by it and nothing else. If it is by faith alone it is by it and nothing else. However Jesus never taught such nor will you find any of these words together in the Bible save for one, faith only. James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith only. So as we see it cannot be by faith only for the demons believed and trembled and even confessed that Jesus was the Son of God, are you saying they are saved? I would hope the answer is no. We are saved by obeying God’s commands. Let me ask you, was Noah saved simply by believing or by believing and obeying God’s specific commands? What if Noah used Oak instead of gopher wood? We are saved by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:17) By believing Christ is the son of God (Heb 11:6) one must repent (Luke 13:3) confession must be made (Matthew 10:32) and be baptized FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Gal. 3:27). Then one must be faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10). These aren’t commands made up by man, these are commands we find in the Bible for New Testament Christians to follow. If they aren’t followed we are disobedient and those who are disobedient will not find eternal rest. So you see it cannot be by grace alone and faith alone for nowhere in the Bible will you find those phrases. Nor will you find verses that even slightly support it.

      Report Post » scarebear83  
    • Libertyluvnmomma
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 3:19pm

      OKIE- I know purgatory isn’t in the Bible- I was trying to stir up a debate. I was hoping a Catholic would answer my question. I know some very smart people who happen to be catholic. they go on and on about purgatory, usually when an unsaved family member dies. I just don’t get it.
      The Catholics sat this one out I see.
      Are you aware of the Doctrine of Trent?

      Report Post » Libertyluvnmomma  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 3:59pm

      @BearFoot

      You owe no apology. I was speaking a friend to friend. I agree, Trinity is false and came from the Catholics to preach ONE God. It took me a long time to shut the parrot up in my head and must say I’m not the best of describing it. Ice, water, vapor are not the same but are made up of the same. That’s how I get it. 

      @Faith Hope Love

      Read God’s Word, Mark 5, where Jesus asked the name of the Demon and it says Legion. The Demon believed in Jesus and His powers. Faith is a work and Faith requires work. To just believe is a false teaching. It is like saying love is just a feeling when in fact it’s an action. 1 John 3:16-24 or so. 

      @Luke 21

      You think I‘m SDA and follow Ellen White because I keep God’s commandments and worship on God’s 7th day?  Hahahahahah that is funny. Again, once you stop following man’s commandments, 1st day of week worship, and begin following God’s, then will you have grounds to speak. That in itself is “replacement”. Ellen White is not any more important to me then Martin Luther, Knox, Calvin, or the preacher who you listen to on Sunday who follows the pope. Good try…

      P.S. Most SDA churches now worship on Sunday, following the Catholic doctrine. If you are asking my denomination, I don’t take labels and actually attend a former Baptist Church that found truth and left Roman Doctrine.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 4:11pm

      @Luke 21

      You say my doctrine is “screwed” up yet you are following the commandments of a man, the pope, who changed God’s commandments and proclaims to be Christ on Earth. You openly deny Daniel the Prophet foretelling of the coming Messiah in Daniel 9 as the Jewish do, to fulfill your own false 7 years of tribulation. Your doctrine is mixed with Catholics and Pharisees Jews. 

      Pull that Log out of your own eye and then speak about a speck you think is in mine. It seems the screwed up doctrine is your mixed doctrine. 

      @Faith Hope Love

      Hell is spiritual death, not a place. Heaven is where we go when Christ’s angels reap the DEAD IN CHRIST AND TRANSFORMS BELIEVERS. Can’t raise the dead if you are already in heaven or hell……Only those who believe in Jesus have ETERNAL life. Those who do not have eternal death, Hell. Hell destroys them forever. Then hell is cast into the lake of fire because it isn’t needed any longer. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 4:17pm

      @Liberty Momma

      I figured you were striking debate that is why joked what you talkin bout. 

      Trent Doctrine I’m some what familiar yes. I find it false. Give me a minute and I’ll post why. And no, most Catholics will not take this debate. They just follow the pope. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 6:41pm

      Jesus did not teach “faith alone” (James 2:24) , “scripture alone” or “grace alone” All 3 cannot be “alone” the concept is self defeating. I recommend studying Martin Luthers teachings and comparing them with what Jesus taught. Martin Luther, in his German translation of the Bible, specifically added the word “allein” (English ‘alone’) to Romans 3:28-a word that is not found in the original Greek.

      Martin Luther said “You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone is not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text”.

      Martin Luther also said “Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day” (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93) but Hebrews 10:26-27 teaches “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries”

      These are just a few examples. Don’t be decieved study the facts and work out your faith in fear and trembling. God Bless…..

      Report Post » snooop1e  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 8:00pm

      @Okie,
      Listen brother, let us agree to disagree. You are my brother if Jesus Christ is your Lord & believe He gave His life a ransom for our sins. If I have sinned against you, please forgive me. Charis & Shalom.

      Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Romans 14:1-10)

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:07am

      Luke 21 

      What do we disagree on and why? That is the discussion we should be having. Please look back and understand I was doing what Jesus or as you quote Paul was telling us to do, share His word and truth in the understanding we obtain and to the master we serve. Notice you came to correct me in your view, a judgement, instead of question and talk to seek truth. Now ask your self why? Either you think my belief is false or you believe your own belief is false and reacted to truth, emotionally. 

      So, brother as you call me, for I do believe in Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah, let’s seek truth respectfully together and keep our own pride, a sin, to the side. Satan wants nothing more then for us to split, for one of us leaves without truth. 

      True or false:

      God’s law is the Ten Commandments and of His authority only? 
      I say true. 

      The 7th day is the day God says to keep Holy? 
      I say true.

      Moses “Law” is not the same as God’s Law? 
      I say true. 

      God loved the world so much He gave His only begotten Son, the Jewish Messiah, amd anyone believing in Him will have eternal life? 
      I say true. 

      Daniel 9-26 says and AFTER 62 weeks the Messiah is cut off? 
      I say true. 

      63 is AFTER 62 ? 
      I say true

      Daniel the prophet was foretelling the coming of Christ?
      I say True

      7 + 62=69 so the Messiah is cut off in the 70th week? 
      I say true. 

      Christ was crucified 3 1/2 years after being anointed (baptized)? 
      I say true. 

      3 1/2 yea

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:22am

      3 1/2 years after crucifiction Stephen was stoned and Gentiles were preached too? 
      True

      I hope you take the opportunity to seek truth, and leave being right to the side. Seek truth. To me, it seems as if you are trying to use this Romans verse to say we shouldn’t discuss Truth (Hope)? Are you? Look forward to your thoughts on these questions. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:45am

      Liberty Momma

      Trent Doctrine is basically a reaction to the Protestants for the Council was convened by “Church” members only, no Protestants, and was to establish where exactly the “Church” stood, their Doctrine. Basically, the Catholic Church was called out, not only by Luther but many leaders of the Catholic Church who protested it and that protest exposed the false doctrine this “Church” stood in. 

      This council never really admitted wrong doing of the Church but “refounded” this Church on it’s belief in original sin, sacraments, baptism, and confirmation if I remember correctly. This is the establishing. This council showed they disagreed openly with Martin Luther and then began to establish it‘s structure of the Church thru it’s education, order, alms, and duties. 

      So again, basically it’s one person calling another out and instead of the one be called out, truthfully I might add, they say no you are wrong on this and we belief this and this and this now and here is how we will keep the power over these believes. (Structure) To me it seemed as  a minor appeasement to regain and keep it’s followers instead of leaving the old doctrine that led to the Protestant reformation. 

      Sorry I took so long to reply. The rain really kills my Internet. I hope you have a great day. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 5:04pm

      Okie,
      Paul, through the HS, has called the brethren to be at peace w/ one another & not squabble over minor issues (our interpretation of Dan 9:24-27, which day(s) to worship, etc. being ex.). If theology were necessary for salvation, then the thief on the X & Samaritan woman @ the well would not be saved. Alas, by God’s grace, perfect doctrine, eschatology is not req’d. If you want to say that “keeping the Sabbath” is “better” than those that worship on the 1st day of the week – have at it. So long as you aren’t placing your faith in your keeping of the Sabbath as your means of salvation, then I couldn’t care less. I personally believe Yeshua (Jesus) Christ fulfilled the Sabbath & He IS my rest. Our rest is in Christ. Just be careful that you don’t throw that millstone around the necks of other believers.
      As for the 10 commandments being God’s law & Moses‘ law being something else I don’t follow what you’re talking about. What is your scriptural basis for that assertion? John 1:17 contradicts that. Furthermore an orthodox Jew would tell you there is much more to the law than the 10 commandments (E.g., see Leviticus & Deuteronomy). Jesus affirmed Moses’ writing of the law on many occasions (e.g. Mat 23:2-5, Mark 1:44, Luk 16:29, etc)
      But be careful when you go down the path of “keeping the law” — for you place yourself under the curse: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 5:05pm

      @Okie cont.
      I strongly suggest you read Galations especially chpt 2&3 as Paul is addressing your doctrine.
      As for me I am not under the law, but grace (Romans 6:14). Jesus Christ fulfills the law for me (Mat 5:18, Luk 24:44, Joh 15:25, Rom 8:4, 13:8, Gal 5:14). He has given His life a ransom for me (Mat 20:28, Mar 10:45). He is the propitiation for my sins (Rom 3:25, Heb 2:17, 1Jn 2:2, 4:10). I am clothed in His righteousness because the Father laid my iniquities upon Him & by His stripes I am healed. (Isa 53)
      Listen friend – In my ignorance I too once thought I needed to keep the sabbath & “the law” until the Lord showed me a) just what the law was and what keeping the law meant, b) just how much of a sinner I was & how woefully short of His standard I was, and c) that it was impossible for any man to do so and that is why He sent His Only Begotten Son to do it in my place.
      As for Dan 9:24-27 I don’t know why you keep bringing that up – I never said anything about it – but I suggest you read Sir Robert Anderson’s book The Coming Prince. In short, the Angel Gabriel gave Daniel a prophecy stating that 70 weeks (of years) were determined for Daniel’s people (Judah/the Jews) & his holy city (Jerusalem) to: finish the transgression, make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. (vs 24) – few would argue, n

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 5:06pm

      @ Okie cont.

      ) – few would argue, none sane, that there has been an end of sins & everlasting righteousness has been brought in so its safe to say the 70 weeks are not yet completed.
      In vs 25 Gabriel states that from a specific event there are 7 “weeks” + 62 “weeks” = 69 x 7 yrs (483 yrs) until Messiah the King (the Triumphal entry of Christ into Jerusalem riding lowly on a donkey). After the 62 (or 69th week of yrs) Messiah is “karath – cut down, executed”, but not for Himself (for you & I & all who call on His name). The rest of the prophecy concerns the prince who will come (i.e. the one who comes in his own name, aka anti-christ) who makes a covenant w/ the nation Israel for a week but in the middle of the week breaks it when he commits the abomination of desolation in the temple’s holy place (Mat 24:15), touching off the 1260 days/42 months that make up the judgment of God upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

      Grace & Peace (Shalom) of Yeshua the Messiah to you.

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 5:27pm

      @ Okie,

      PS Point of clarification: I do not believe the 70th week has started yet – Jesus makes clear in Matt 24 that the tribulation begins right after the abomination and I’m certain the Day of the Lord & vengeance of our God has not taken place yet. I do believe the 70th week is about to start however. Ezekiel 38 & 39 is coming to life in the middle east before our eyes.

      He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Revelation 22:20)

      So now you have my answer.

      Grace (Charis) & Peace (Shalom) of The Lord Jesus Christ to you.

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 6:14pm

      @ Okie,

      PSS I mispoke when I said our Theology didn’t matter. I meant our doctrine on other points such as eschatology, etc. Who God is and what His method of salvation are, are esential and there is no room for differences. That Jesus Christ is God the Son is essential – for if He were just a man, He could not have attoned for our sins. Salvation by grace is essential. Salvation through works is the law. Salvation –> (produces) good works. The converse is NOT true, good works =/= salvation.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 7:24pm

      Luke 21

      Thank you for at least replying, without real insult. That is the first start in seeking truth. Sadly, you simply passed on answering True/False questions. Why? 

      Our Jewish friend will tell you God’s law was kept inside the Ark while Moses Law (Festivals etc) were kept in a pocket on the outside. There’s the difference. Why do you resist to follow God’s law? Especially if you believe Jesus is God? That is a total contradiction, isn’t it? You embrace Jesus but reject His law….Ponder that. 

      If Paul called peace and this is what you practice, through works, not lip service, why did you come correcting me, in your view? Was your first post to me an attempt to correct my “theology”? 

      As for the law, Jesus did fulfill God’s law, not do away with it. Isn’t “doing away”, it doesn’t matter, a replacement theology? If we are to be as Christ, shouldn’t we at least follow His law, God’s law…

      To thine own self be true. 

      Do you worship the same Jesus Muslims call a prophet only? I didn’t think so. So do you and I worship the same Jesus if they are totally different in concept and idea? Ponder that. 

      Please, answer the simple true false questions. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 7:48pm

      As for Daniel 9 and his 70 weeks, this is used by so many in complete denial of History, to fulfill some false prophesy to establish their “faith”. As you said, you deny it has even started and others say 69 have been completed with 7 years tribulation, both false shown thru grace of God in History. 

      Notice you said Jesus did not do away with sin but yet call Him God, the last sacrifice, and the Messiah. Do you not find that odd? 

      Jesus’s crucifixion was the last sacrifice, for ALL sin, wasn’t he? All are made righteous thru belief in Him, right? In being the last sacrifice, did He not cease the offerings and oblations? Be honest to yourself. See your own contradiction there, not for me, but for yourself. So you are being TRUE to yourself. 

      Since 70 AD has Jerusalem been over ran with Gentiles and remained desolate? 

      The abomination was Rome, that is the point and in 66 AD believers of Jesus’s Words (Jews) saw Cesiluis, I’m a horrible speller sorry, scout Jerusalem and fled to the mountains. 70 AD came around and Titus killed 1.1 million Jews who didn’t listen to Jesus and overturned every stone of the Temple. True story….do you deny these events? 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 7:59pm

      Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 KJV)

      Duration: 70 weeks 
      Who: People and Holy City
      Why: End os Sins and reconcile iniquity and bring EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS and to anniont the most High, Jesus. 

      Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Daniel 9:25 KJV)
      Duration: 7, 62 = 69
      Start: decree to restore Temple
      End: Messiah Prince begins (Anointed, baptized by John the Baptist. )

      And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26 KJV)

      When: After the 62, which is after the first 7. Thus after the 69th week, somewhere in the 70th. 
      What: Messiah is cut off for us, not himself

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 8:03pm

      Then what: The Prince comes destroys city and over runs with flood,flood=People, till the end. In 66 AD Celcius scouted Jerusalem and the Jews who saw him and listened to Jesus’s warning in Matthew fled to the mountains. the ones who remained were slaughtered, 1.1 million, by Titus in 70 AD when he overturned every stone of the Temple. 

      And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27 KJV)

      When: one week, last 1, mid week, 3 1/2; Jesus formed a covenant with many
      What: sacrifice cease, oblation cease
      Why: overspreading of abominations; Following Pharisees and not God
      How: makes desolate, over ran with Gentiles to this day
      Duration: til END, or determined wrath is POURED

      If your honest, no agenda, and study history as well as God‘s Word I do not know how one denies Daniel’s 70 weeks are complete. 

      I do thank you for conversing. I hope to continue it. Steel sharpens steel.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:01pm

      @Okie,
      “..Sadly, you simply passed on answering True/False questions. Why? ”
      This probably not the best forum for this but..never the less. I thought I did respond to your questions in my response. My apology for not making it clearer. I’ll try again:
      True or false:

      God’s law is the Ten Commandments and of His authority only?
      I say true. [Luke says: Ten Commandments are God's commandments, the Law is more than the 10 comand., it also deals w/ the sacrificial system, etc contained in Levit. & Duet.,etc (Torah). Jesus affirmed all of the written Law. E.g. He told a leper He healed to go to the temple & do the things Moses commanded for cleansing (Mat 8:4) - many more passages: Mat 23:1-5, Joh 1:17 (law came thru Moses..), Joh 5:45-46, Joh 7:19, etc. The Law is God's but given thru Moses - Moses gave nothing of his own.]

      The 7th day is the day God says to keep Holy?
      I say true. [Luke: true but it is fulfilled in

      Moses “Law” is not the same as God’s Law?
      I say true. [Luke: FALSE e.g. see Joh 1:17]

      God loved the world so much He gave His only begotten Son, the Jewish Messiah, amd anyone believing in Him will have eternal life?
      I say true. [Luke: true]

      Daniel 9-26 says and AFTER 62 weeks the Messiah is cut off?
      I say true. [Luke: true - after 7+62=69 weeks of yrs following command to rbld]

      63 is AFTER 62 ?
      I say true [Luke: okay? I don't follow you here]

      Daniel the prophet was foretelling the coming of Christ?
      I

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:25pm

      @Okie cont.

      7 + 62=69 so the Messiah is cut off in the 70th week?
      I say true. [Luke: I say false. He was cut off at the end of the 69th week of yrs, i.e. 483th yr. See "Coming Prince" for chronology - its very precise. The 70th week has not started. While I agree w/ your history regarding the sacking of Jerusalem & the temple, etc. The abomination spoken of in Mat 24 & Dan has not taken place yet. Neither has there been an end to sin or bringing in of everlasting righteousness. Note: it did happen once, ref Macabees for historical account but that was before Christ. Yes Jeru is under gentile seige - at least temple mount - for the moment, but Paul makes clear that is not forever - see Romans 11 - and that God is not thru w/ Israel]
      footnote: If the abom. of desol. had taken place in 70 AD – don’t you think John would have mentioned it in Revelation since it was written after 90 AD? Never the less, 70 AD is well beyond 7 yrs after the crucifiction – closer to 40. God does not give approximations. The clock on Israel stopped after the 69th “week”. There has been an ~2K yr pause (for Grace) since then…He’s patient

      Christ was crucified 3 1/2 years after being anointed (baptized)?
      I say true. [Luke: no idea. where did you get this from? What scriptural ref do you have?]

      3 1/2 years after crucifiction Stephen was stoned and Gentiles were preached too?
      True [Luke: no idea – doesn’t sound correct. What scriptural or even secular ref do have t

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:42pm

      @ Okie cont.
      you wrote:
      snip
      “…And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

      When: one week, last 1, mid week, 3 1/2; Jesus formed a covenant with many
      What: sacrifice cease, oblation cease
      Why: overspreading of abominations; Following Pharisees and not God
      How: makes desolate, over ran with Gentiles to this day
      Duration: til END, or determined wrath is POURED”

      This is where we part company so to speak. You are confusing the Messiah w/ the prince of the people who shall come (that destroy the holy city). Yeshua was not the “prince” of the romans (who destroyed the city). He is the King of the Jews. The covenant spoken of here (in Dan 9:27) is not “the new covenant” – and its not Messiah being referenced – its the prince of the people to come. He confirms (an existing) covenant – such as the land grant or the Temple. Furthermore the Abom. of Desol is to set yourself up as god in the Holy of Holies. Jesus, because He is God & the Messiah, cannot commit such an act since He is the rightfull Heir to that throne. The AC is the prince of the people to come & in the middle of the 7 yrs he will set himself up to be god & defile the Holy place. That has not happened because it triggers the Day of the Lord and His wrath – the judgments spoken of throught scripture, amplified in Revelation. The “he” spoken of in 9:27 is a reference to the previous noun: princ

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 10:53pm

      Luke 21

      Before the rain hits and I lose service.

      Titus was the Prince of the North, Rome, 

      Jesus was baptized three passovers and a half before crucifixion. Stephen was stoned 3 1/2 from then. 

      Notice in Daniel 9:27 “He” is the anti Christ and “he” is also God in your view isn’t it? 

      I’ll post scripture as soon as I can, due to storm. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 11:12pm

      @Luke 21

      Acts 7:56-58, “And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.  Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.”

      Acts 13:45-46, “But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.  Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

      For 3 1/2 years the message was targeted at Jews specifically until they began persecution with Stephen. This completes the 70 weeks. After this the prince, Titus came and destroyed Israel and it has been over ran with a flood of people that are non Jewish.

      I respectfully ask you to consider how things were wrote then in Daniels time.  Poetry wouldn’t you say, in their own way. He described the Messiah being cut off and then what happened after that week. (General overview) Verse 27 is specific details of that last week, when the Messiah was cut off. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 11:30pm

      @ Okie,

      There are 2 individuals spoken of in Dan 9:26 – the Messiah & the prince of the people to come. Titus did not commit the abomination spoken of in Dan & Matt 24. He did destroy the temple. However the Temple will be rebuilt (there are preparations for it being made this very day). The prince of the people to come is the “man of sin” (i.e. anti-christ, the one who comes in his own name whom the Jews will accept – Joh 5:43) spoken of by Jesus. Regardless, this is one of the minor issues Paul was speaking of in Romans 14. Its very interesting but has no bearing on Salvation. Read the Coming Prince – you can download it free of charge (it was written in the late 1800s – before Israel was reborn by the way). Its a remarkable work written by a very gifted biblical scholar. If after reading you disagree w/ his analysis, that’s okay. We will still break bread together at our Lords coming.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 11:37pm

      Luke 21

      My faiths version

      And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (Jesus for 7 years did confirm the covenant with many.)

      and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (Jesus sacrifice for our sin did cease the sacrifice and oblation)

       and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (Please say the second word in this phrase, FOR, He shall make it desolate. God makes it desolate for leaving Him and goes to Gentiles and Jews who believe in Him)

      even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27 KJV) (consummation means END and determined means judgement is poured as bowls that come at Earths end) 

      Your version
      And he (antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (antichrist) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (God) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27 KJV)

      How does your view determine between the “He”? 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 11:49pm

      Luke 21

      Jesus did away with sin thru belief in Him, didn’t He? 

      Jesus did make all righteous thru belief in Him, didn’t He? 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 17, 2011 at 11:55pm

      @Luke 

      John did speak of it, anti-Christ who reigned 1260 years, thru Papal Rome. Papal Rome is called anti-Christ due to their persecution or false witness of Christ. 

      Titus Rome, was abomination because it was Pagan Rome, Godless. 

      Was, is, will be………….

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 10:35am

      Okie,
      This is my last post on this (wrong forum, way off topic). Anyway we do disagree on the “he” in Dan 9:27. You are taking it to refer to the Messiah, I am taking it to refer to the previous noun (rules of precedence in english) which IS the prince of ppl to come. You refer to the covenant as being the new covenant & for 7 yrs. I am stating A covenant will be confirmed or “affirmed” – i.e. it is likely an existing covenant (not new) under dispute (e.g. the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob land grant). BTW the new covenant Jesus brought is an everlasting one, not 7 yrs (Jer 31 & Hebrews 8 – Note: it wasn’t just w/ the Jews it was w/ the entire house of Isra’el).
      The problem here isn’t Dan 9:27 – its Matt 24:
      Read Dan 11:31 & 12:11. The definition of the abomination couldn’t be clearer. If you still doubt, then your disagreement is w/ Jesus Himself. Jesus refers to the very event in Matt 24:15 – it couldn’t be more clear that Messiah is NOT the “he” of Dan 9:27. If it were, then Jesus couldn’t be Messiah because Jesus clearly describes the events of 9:27 as a bad thing & makes no mention of Himself doing it.

      While you’re correct in noting that the Jewish believers left Jeru. when they saw the city under siege & were spared as a result based on Christ’s warning – what you fail to see is that they are two separate events (AD 66-70 & Dan 9:27), & not concurrent. The reason is that the AofD did not occur then & cannot occur until there is a temple

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 10:37am

      @ Okie (cont.)

      temple (& there will be a 3rd temple – that may in fact be the covenant vs 27 refers to).
      If all of Dan. prophecy has been fulfilled then there is no more sin & everlasting righteousness has been brought in. You & I disagree on this point. I see sin all around me (I sin daily). Paul called himself the chief of sinners. Read Romans 7 & 8. We live in a fallen world, in corrupt bodies. The end of sin will not come until corruption puts on incorruption. Jesus FREED us from the bondage & penalty of the sin. However we will not be delivered from the presence of sin UNTIL He returns & puts all enemies beneath His feet & glorifies the saints. Are you saying you no longer sin? (1 John 1:8-10)

      Finally you said your “faith’s version” when describing the “he” of Dan 9:27. Hopefully you meant your version of interpretation of the “he” in 9:27, not that you’re of a different faith. There is ONE faith (Eph 4) and hopefully we share the same one. Grace & Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ to you.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 1:20pm

      @Luke

      I’m honestly telling you your interpretation of Daniel 9 is wrong. It is saddening you want be honest. This shows how mixed churches are as the topic discusses. 

      You preach Jesus didn’t do away with sin. Your Jesus and my Jesus are not the same then. 

      Jesus does away with my sin every time I repent. All I must do is ask. 

      You are only parroting what you think, not God’s word. 

      Sorry there is too much difference to believe we worship the same God. The God I worship did away with sin thru His last sacrifice, Jesus, and anyone who asks forgiveness and keeps faith in Him, receives it. 

      I’ll leave you with this: Satan will not come looking like a dragon and horns; He will fool many into thinking he is legit and the way to God. He will be the poser…..My Jesus came and conquered sin.  Your waiting and wanting to build a temple for yours to conquer sin. My God rules Earth, your waiting for yours too. My God keeps His commandments. Yours made his own. 

      Have a great day. Take care. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 8:12pm

      @Luke 21

      Your understanding of grammar is also incorrect.

      Messiah is the subject of the 26 verse. The prince is only a subject in an event being described after the Messiah is cut off. The prince is only a minor subject of the verse. 

      He is then used in verse 27 which refers to back to the major subject, the Messiah, not the minor subject the “Prince”, and what the Messiah did in the last week which comes AFTER 62 weeks. 

      Satan is fooling you, just how Satan fools those who will take the mark of the beast. Put your agenda aside and open your eyes. 

      Jesus did away with sin, if you ask for Him in your life and forgiveness of them. To deny that, is to deny Jesus Christ. 

      Jesus makes all righteous thru faith and repentance. To deny that is to deny Jesus Christ. 

      Why did Jesus die on the cross if it were not to remove sin? 

      Jesus confirmed His covenant with the Jewish from His anointment by John the Baptist until Stephen’s death (7 years) and Gentiles were preached to, the everlasting covenant. In the exact middle of that 7 years, Jesus was crucified (cut off), for sin of all. Sacrifice stopped. Oblation stopped. Soon after the PEOPLE of the PRINCE came and destroyed Jerusalem. Since, Jerusalem has been desolate, over ran with Gentiles, and all because the abomination of turning from God, just like what happened to Israel and just like what happened to Judah. 

      Quit denying factual history. Quit denying Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 8:14pm

      Honestly Okie, we’re swatting at knats here. The word “end” in Dan 9:24 is:

      châtham (khaw-tham’)
      A primitive root; to close up; especially to seal: – make an end, mark, seal (up), stop.

      What you describe is not something that has stopped or ended:

      You wrote: “Jesus does away with my sin every time I repent. All I must do is ask.”

      If an end were made of it, you’d have nothing new to repent of each day. He forgives you, but He doesn’t make it so you no longer sin – there hasn’t been a “stop” to sin in your life (i.e. an “end”). You will sin tomorrow. He leaves you in this state to be sanctified. When He glorifies you, then you’ll no longer sin, period. Salvation has 3 stages: Justified (free from the penalty of sin), sanctified (freed from the power of sin over you), glorified (freed from the presence of sin).

      You are not YET freed from the presence of sin (i.e. an end of it has not YET been made, i.e. a STOP to it) – you live in a corrupt body & world. Just look around you man – sin is increasing leasps & bounds – by your own admission you still sin. Yes Jesus conquered the grave & sin & you are forgiven. By His sacrifiece, you are justified & you are being sanctified (freed from the power of sin). But glorifed, you are not. Not yet anyway – Glorification comes at His (Jesus’) return.

      You wrote: “You preach Jesus didn’t do away with sin. Your Jesus and my Jesus are not the same then.”

      Your characterization of what I believe and

      Report Post »  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 8:31pm

      @ Okie cont.

      You wrote: “You preach Jesus didn’t do away with sin. Your Jesus and my Jesus are not the same then.”

      While you may be correct that we don’t both have the same Jesus,

      [my Jesus/Yeshua was born over 2K yrs ago to a Jewish virgin, in the line of David the King, was full of grace & truth, claimed to be the Son of God and Jewish Messiah, & proved it, went to a cross and died in my place to free me from my sin & its penalty, and rose from the grave after 3 days, & proclaimed His victory to disciples throughout Jerusalem - all according to the OT scriptures - & I await His return]

      Never the less, your characterization of what I believe & preach is in error my friend.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 10:18pm

      Luke 21

      You contradict yourself so much I do not understand why you do not see it. 

      What purpose did Jesus die on the cross? If it was not to remove sin, end it in your life until you choose to leave Jesus and sin again, then what purpose was it? Please answer this question. 

      You say Christ didn’t end sin but “frees you of yours”. How are you “free” of sin if sin is all around every where and Jesus didn’t “end” it in your life? 

      Jesus redeems you, pays the price of sin for us sinners, who ask forgiveness. Jesus ends sin for us, the penalty for sin, thru belief in Him. To say otherwise is denying Christ and His powers, His purpose, His existence. It is equal to saying He was just a Prophet, or just a Jewish Man. 

      Say I believe as you, 7 year trib or Jesus reigns on Earth 1000 years etc….When Satan is “loose” to tempt, is that Sin? 

      Rut roe, I see a hole in your explanation………How can there be sin, a temptation to do wrong by Satan, if Jesus has reigned a 1000 years and ENDED sin as you preach? This should show you just how false your teachings have become. Can you explain this? 

      I reach to you as a friend Luke, not in a ******* contest or who knows more contest but in an effort to see these errors I once believed myself.

      One who thinks can see these contradictions. One who is honest to himself will ask why boldly. One who loves will stand in truth to the death. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 10:32pm

      Luke 21

      It seems you hold the view the Jewish held at the time of Jesus, He isn‘t good enough to be King because he didn’t stop sin (end world of it) and you need Him to physically force sin out of your life. 

      A humble King forces nothing, but provides a path from it. Jesus ends sin if you choose to walk with Him. We go to Heaven why? Because we choose to repent and strive to live a sinless life. Yes, we all fall short but we choose to go back to Jesus (God) and ask His forgiveness, His mercy. Jesus suffered for ALL sin so those who believe in Him will not have to. 

      To say Jesus does not end sin diminishes the purpose of His crucifixtion and conquering of Death. It is equal to calling Him just a prophet. It is denial He is the “Annointed One”, the Messiah. 

      Yes, sin is more rampant then it has almost ever been. The Churches today ignore God’s law for their own, organize around the one Church that killed those who didn‘t bow to it and do not speak God’s Word truthfully. 

      Papal Rome became a Beast and persecuted millions. 
      We have become a 2nd beast, USA. 
      We have a world government, UN. 
      And we have Israel setup by the 2nd beast and UN at command of 1st beast while going against Jesus making it desolate. 

      Muslim is anti Christ
      Jewish today are anti Christ
      Pope followers are anti Christ.

      Wake up man, as a friend, wake up. There is no second chance at this. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 10:38pm

      Wow, you can’t say ******* contest? What about urinating contest….Or peeing contest…. 

      Seriously Blaze, that is sad. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 11:18pm

      Luke

      To back up Bear foots claim of a false trinity, which I agree, and will show again how false the teachings are in Churches read: 

      “For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7

      these three are one as in one accord as a man and wife become on as in one accord. 

      “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh…” Matthew 9:5-6

      If all 3 are one why did Jesus say the father and I are one? What about the Holy spirit?

      “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…” Genesis 1:26

      Our is plural, more then one.

      Matthew 3:16-17, “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

      Jesus is on Earth
      Spirit is above Jesus and He sees it
      God’s voice is heard

      Three different beings. If Jesus is 1/3 of God how can God know when Earth’s end is and Jesus not know.
      Roman Catholic doctrine has corrupted the Churches. Thank you Bear foot for the slight challenge so that I would improve my explaining of this false doctrine. 
      Come out of the beast Luke. You know too much to believe so many lies and false

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • BUDDY LITTLE
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:09am

      MARTIN LUTHER Rocks!

      Report Post »  
  • LinkedIn G
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:31pm

    Just look in The Holy Bible … It’s all there.

    Report Post » LinkedIn G  
    • Pontiac
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 10:30pm

      Tried rotating my tires today… Couldn’t find the dang torque specs in any of them bibles….

      Report Post » Pontiac  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 10:50pm

      Hah thats funny!

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
  • Scarfgoat J. Bogulsnarfy
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:11pm

    I agree with LPHP and Neiman1. God is bigger than the bible or any ‘religion’ anuway. None of this would be happening if He didn’t want it to. His will and his understanding is WAY beyond our feeble little human minds.

    Report Post » Scarfgoat J. Bogulsnarfy  
    • LinkedIn G
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:36pm

      The bible was inspired by God … so, of course God is bigger than the bible. The story of Elijah tells how God feels about other religions … Baal for instance.

      Report Post » LinkedIn G  
  • JimCDew
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:53pm

    Another Jew for Jesus. A prime example of what the article is describing. Either you are guided by the laws and history of the Torah and its Mitzvot or you go with Jesus law “Love thy neighbor as thyself” which he in fact took from the Prophets. When you see that even Jesus was Jewish and not Christian you will realize that the G-dhood ascribed to Jesus can be ascribed to all men who believe in Yahweh. Jesus was not G-ds’ Chosen One, Jesus was one of G-ds’ Chosen.

    Report Post »  
    • Southern Rebel
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:00pm

      I’m tempted to say WRONG. Could you explain your last line for me? And why the heck do people drop the ‘O’ in God. Trust me, He won’t be upset if you write it..it’s not a sin ya know.
      To understand Gods word, you have to see the complete connection of prophecy from Genesis to Revelation. The problem with the Jewish folks is they only have a part of the story and don‘t follow the inherent prophecy that points them to ’The Way’. :)

      Report Post » Southern Rebel  
    • ConsChristian
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:31pm

      Great post Southern Rebel! The article and the first few comments I read made me sick. God’s word has not changed. People can make up their own religion if they want, but they won’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

      Shame on anyone who tries to change God’s word OR His name, such as G-d!

      Report Post »  
    • JimCDew
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:51pm

      @SOUTHERNREBEL – You say G-d doesn’t care if we spell it out. Perhaps not but the triadition is a sign of respect just as wearing a yarmulke (skullcap) when in the presence of the Arc or the Torah is.

      You say I must believe in everything from Exodus to Revelations, not so. In jewish prophecy of the Messiah, He will come as a warrior to save the People of the Covenant. Thus under your own Revelation the Messiah will come to wage war with Shaitan on behalf of Israel. When He comes you will know him and so will I.

      As for that last sentence I was equating Jesus to all Jews then living, both in learning and observance.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:55pm

      @Jim

      You either follow the Pharisees and their laws or you follow Jesus and God’s Law. Jesus’s two commandments were simply summations of the first four and the last six. 

      To believe Jesus is not the Messiah, God on Earth, is rejection of God and not of God. 

      I am Jewish, a gentile grafted (adopted), thru the blood of the Jewish Messiah Jesus Christ. I keep the base and roots (God’s law) and believe in Jesus the Messiah. 

      Those following Pharisee law are following Man‘s law and rejecting the Jewish Messiah and will be broken off Jesus Christ’s Jewish tree until they accept Him as their Saviour. 

      Basically, Judaism today does not even practice or believe their own religion due to Man (Pharisees) mix matching to fit their agenda and keep their power. 

      P.S. “Christian” means believer in Christ, Jesus a Jew and the Jewish Messiah. Christian is simply a true Jew, not a false Pharisee Jew we see today. Even Satan tries to play the word game in Religions….

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Yaakov
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:05am

      Or your seek the truth Written by Moses, and stop fooling around with mans laws. If you think that is stupid, may I suggest that you read Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah 29, Jeremiah 24 + 25, Ezekiel 18, 2 Kings 2. There is a lot of prophecy concerning not following the Writings of Moses. You should have enought to get started with there. Need more, I have it.

      Report Post » Yaakov  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:34am

      @YaaKov

      God’s Law, the commandments, is what my faith keeps.  Even the Sabbath.  My faith also believes in Jesus Christ, a Jew of David and God of Moses, the Messiah of Judaism as foretold by God’s Prophets. 

      If you follow Moses then what use is the Talmud, not written by Moses? 

      Again, Daniel the Prophet of God tells you very plainly when the Messiah came. Read it, in it’s original writings and God will show you. 

      Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation for He is King of Judaism. Jesus was the final sacrifice and since He died for our sin and over came death there hasn’t been an official sacrifice. He turned Jerusalem desolate (70 AD) and it remains desolate even till this day for the abomination of denying Him to follow the teachings of the Pharisees. The same Pharisees who scribed a lot of the Talmud. Daniel the Prophet of God tells us just that in Daniel 9. 

      Why else do you believe God took Jerusalem away and allowed it to be over ran by Gentiles since Titus to this day? Israel was taken into captivity for leaving God. Judah was taken by the Babylonians for leaving God. After reunitung both, building a Temple and Jesus coming Jerusalem has been over ran and desolate has it not?  Please see the truth.
      Keep thy Commandments between thine eyes and upon thy hand. Keep Jesus Christ fully in your heart. God’s seal is very clear.
      My prayers are with you and if I can give you more information or help you find faith in Jesus the Jewish Messiah please

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Luke21
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:29pm

      Yaakov,
      Shabbat Shalom!
      I read Jer 24 & 25 & was reminded of Revelation and the judgment upon the whole earth and I see the restoration of Isra’el (Jer 24:5-7) and the Glorious Land and the return of her King.
      I read Ezek 18 & saw God’s mercy for I was wicked when He revealed Himself to me and He redeemed me (John 8), much as He redeemed David as he cried out unto Him in Psalm 51.
      I read 2 Kings 2 and saw a type. I was reminded of Acts 1.
      Finally I read Ezek 38 & 39 and see its foundation unfolding in this very day, before our eyes.
      I leave you with Isaiah 53 which is also prophetic and Luke 24, with the key verses being 25-27.
      Grace and Peace of the Lord Yeshua to you

      Report Post »  
    • WhiteFang
      Posted on September 18, 2011 at 12:14am

      Yaakof,

      I want to ask a few questions, and I am not trying to be obnoxious, I really want to know.

      If the modern Jew does not accept that the ancient nation of Israel/Judah actually produced the foretold messiah, and that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies that would identify him as such, then what should happen with the obligation of burnt sacrifices that was the duty for faithful Jews? Should not those sacrifices for sin continue for the Jews? And what about all the other requirements laid out by our God and written down by Moses? It is obvious that the modern Jewish faith does not resemble what Moses encouraged.

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
  • tricia
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:47pm

    Amen

    Report Post »  
  • momprayn
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:46pm

    No surprise. Same ‘ol, same ‘ol. People rebelling with various excuses…..many even calling themselves “Christians” when they’re not…no real understanding or commitment to Jesus and His Word and that’s how they want to keep it. No – no “Christians” believe in reincarnation. I‘m appalled at how many don’t even believe the Bible all true and from God — falling into apostasy as Jesus predicted. Sounds like the beginnings of the “one world religion” deal in the end times, which of course is satanic. But this isn’t anything new – people tend to mix their previous pagan relgions with the “new” ones they’ve supposedly been converted to – went on in biblical times.
    And yes, part of it is b/c a lot of churches don’t really “do it” as it was meant with the Holy Spirit doing the leading and teaching/experiences. Man took over with his own thoughts, misinterpretations and traditions.
    The “model service” is 1 Corinthians 14:26-33.
    However, the good news is that there are those out there that are doing a good job & hopefully grow despite all the problems & hopefully our own traumas here will move more back to God and His true church as described in the New Testament.
    Sigh……

    Report Post »  
    • Southern Rebel
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:58pm

      Excellent comments Momprayin. My only arguement to youf well thought out comment, is ‘christianity’ as a vessel being some kind of truth. It isn’t, nor did His Word ever tell us to be ‘christians’ nor follow a religion called Christianity.
      Christianity IS the problem, yet Jesus gives us Liberty, freedom and truth in Him and His words. No paid priesthood, no buildings, no programs or service required, just we and our Lord while fellowshipping (not meaning ‘church’ as we know it today) with other believers.
      There are so many ‘out of the church’ believers now because of christianity itself. Besides; He tells us to ‘come OUT of her my children, lest you share in her sins and partake of her plagues.’ Rev 18:4.
      Our Lord HATES religion. This was ancient Isreals biggest problem, still is today, just as it is Spiritual Israels problem today. :)
      God Bless ya. :)

      Report Post » Southern Rebel  
    • Cherynn
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 11:16pm

      Man invented religeon. Its why there are so many different ones.

      Report Post » Cherynn  
  • BrownBear
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:29pm

    It’s no wonder Christianity is getting so diluted when churches allow the world to dictate what is acceptable for Christians to believe, say or do. That kind of wavering is what turns people off who are looking for answers.

    Relativism in itself is an absolute, so it does churches no good to dilute their message to appear more appealing to the “wisdom” of the world. It would be much less confusing to potential Christians and truthful to stand on principle rather than to try to be everything to everyone. “Faith” is a core principle in Christianity and in itself is an answer.

    That kind of relativism is also why some Christians move to Islam – Islam makes no apologies and does not waiver on principle.

    Christ died to save us from sin. Joyce Meyer says, “Jesus did not die so we could have a religion. He died so we can have a close, intimate relationship with God.” — It’s about love and following God… look up “Religion or Relationship” by Joyce Meyer. It will change your life.

    Report Post » BrownBear  
    • Chuck Stein
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 10:11pm

      In line with what I was thinking as regards the idea that Jesus died for any church. He died to save us. No church on Earth is eternal. Every person is.

      Report Post »  
    • jojj0
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:45am

      nice

      Report Post »  
  • flatbroke
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:23pm

    If going to a church, and praising God, and taking communion, and having fellowship with other christians is boring to you, then you are going to church for the wrong reasons. there is not rules for music, or worship, and long as it doesnt disrespect God or people in the process, even dancing to worship God is ok, as long as it is not disrespect God or yourself.

    Report Post » flatbroke  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 6:49pm

      Who decides what is “disrespectful” to God? You? Your Pastor? 2 who agree? What if 5 pairs 2 all disagree? Who decides?

      Report Post » snooop1e  
  • USshrugged
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:20pm

    The problem today is the “religion” and not the beliefs. Personally, I can’t seem to find a church which is not totally focused on bringing in members, and collecting money, or doesn’t have a social justice bent. We attend but don’t belong after leaving the United Methodist Church for its politics. It does not change my Biblically based values, or strong belief in Jesus Christ as my savior.

    At the same time, I also don‘t feel it’s my place to involve myself in, or push evangelism within the political realm. Judeo Christian values, prolife support is the basis of my conservative beliefs, but disregarding or denigrating candidates for their religious beliefs is neither Christian, nor consistent with the gospel.

    Report Post »  
    • bruce_baker
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:31pm

      Try the Reformed church (Presbyterian). They are Calvinist and conservative.

      Report Post » bruce_baker  
    • localwes
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:56pm

      2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      The Bible has the answers to all things spiritual. If you need help finding them send me your questions at localwes@gmail.com. I will use scripture only. Remember the Eunich needed help from Philip.

      Report Post »  
    • Southern Rebel
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:03pm

      Try Jesus on His own and leave ‘christianity’ in the dust. They are comnpromised with sin and they are not His true church. Remember what we read in Mathew about the Gates of Hades not prevailing against His Church? Well, it sure is prevailing over christianity.
      I left christianity in the dust; but instead, went only to our Lord. Trust me; He’s probably calling out to you right now…just take a chanceon listening to Him and He won’t lead you astray. :)
      God Bless ya and may His will be done.

      Report Post » Southern Rebel  
    • FAITH HOPE LOVE
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 11:16am

      @SOUTHERN REBEL
      I liked what you said in one comment then I read what you had to say about “Christians”.. Um, my friend-tell me why the NT is full of scripture telling us (church age beleivers) to follow Him, be like Him, live like Him, and most importantly to “take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” and “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed (new way of thinking) by the renewing of your minds in Christ Jesus”….so? By the way there were no “Christians” before Christ and the word Christian translated from the original languages of Hebrew and Greek LITERALLY MEANS= “LITTLE CHRISTS”….

      Report Post »  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 10:43pm

      @localwes , 2 Tim 3:16 says all scripture is “PROFITABLE” it doesn’t say scripture ALONE is profitable. It doesn’t say ONLY scripture is profitable. It doesn’t say scripture alone is all that is necessary. It doesn’t say scripture alone is the pilar and bulwark of truth. Exegesis is interpreting scripture. Eisegesis is reading your beliefs into scripture. Jesus Christ founded His Church in Mathew 16. Take Him at His word. In John 6 Jesus tells his disciples that His flesh is TRUE FOOD and His Blood is TRUE DRINK. He doesn’t say His flesh is symbolic food and His blood is symbolic drink. He doesn’t say His flesh is spiritual food and His blood is spiritual drink. Jesus says our forefathers ate manna in the desert and died. Jesus compares his saying to our forefathers physically eating manna. Our forefathers didn’t spiritually eat manna in the desert. They didn’t symbolically eat manna, they physcially ate manna and it sustained them PHYSICALLY. Jesus went on to say the words I speak are spirit and life and the flesh is of no avail. Jesus wasn’t talking about HIS flesh He was talking about OURS!!! Only in the spirit can we understand His words, the flesh cannot understand. Who would suggest that Jesus was saying HIS flesh is of no avail? Jesus flesh is all that matters. ALL are saved through Jesus flesh. Bethlehem means “house of bread” and manger means “to eat”….. Think about it…..

      Report Post » snooop1e  
  • vennoye
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:13pm

    Well, what’s happened is that if unity is the objective, with all the different interpretations of who Christ is, you then have to go into the Word of God and find what Scripture has in common with Buddhism, Moslem, and all the other religions of the world.
    Once you find what you have in common, you then redefine Christ for the sake of a relationship. And so, we’ve turned it around. We have learned to redefine the Gospel for the sale of unity, for the sake of hope, for the sake of peace.
    God’s not going there. God knows who He is, where He came from, and where He’s going. He’s clearly explained that to us in His Word, the Bible. Let it change us, we can’t go in and change it. And so, that’s what the religious organizations have been pulled into. People go to seminary not knowing that when they go there and take counseling strategies that its not “Adam’s Counseling,” which is Biblical but psychology, sociology, and anthropology. They are learning how to read the Word in order to define God’s Word in changing times. Redefining it for the sake of meeting the felt needs within the community and drawing people in [God does not change].

    This is from the link Louise gave us on another topic …..you might want to read it if you didn’t.

    http://www.womensgroup.org/998NEWLT.html

    Report Post » vennoye  
    • louise
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 6:46am

      Thanks for re-posting the link, Vennoye.

      This world system that we live in has been shaped by the Hegelian Dialectic. It is not of God nor is it good. It is evil that has been sewn into the fabric of Governments, Churches, school curriculum from K-Doctoral degrees. It is all about consensus, synthesis. Group think instead of individual. Think about it for a minute.
      Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ will return and rule. He IS the Truth He ALONE is Good. Bible has also told us that there is a counterfeit. Someone who can DISGUISE himself as an angel of light.
      SO……here we have the world system (counterfeit) on one side, and the Truth (Jesus) on the other side. Jesus soon will be THE ruler of earth, with One Church having One Doctrine: and that doctrine is the doctrine of God.
      Right now what we are witnessing with our own eyes is the world system programming us to accept the counterfeit by “consensus”. Stay alert.

      Report Post » louise  
    • louise
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 6:58am

      excellent post, Vennoye

      Report Post » louise  
    • louise
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 7:12am

      Vennoye, Blazers,
      “They” are also using the Hegelian Dialectic to “re-interpret the Constitution for today’s changing times”. Which president was it that said the “Constitution was just a piece of paper”…..?
      Once you understand this, you will be able to spot it at work in just about everything. This is why it is so important that we speak the Truth of God to others.

      Report Post » louise  
    • louise
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 7:33am

      You will also see the Hegelian Dialectic has been used to form the whole debate regarding a Palestinian state. Watch and hear it unfold next week at the UN.

      ok…I am off to take hubby to physical therapy…

      Report Post » louise  
  • Rayblue
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:11pm

    December 5th, 2001, at Wilson N. Jones Medical Center ER from 6:07 pm to 6:13 pm. Heart attack.
    March 21st, 2003, at Twelve Oaks Surgery Center OR from 8:25 am to 8:29 am. Reaction to nitroglycerin.
    If there is one thing I feel I must relate, it’s the peace that comes afterward. The weight lifted from the shoulder. And joy like a bird flying in the heart.

    Report Post » Rayblue  
  • Gypsy123
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:11pm

    After looking at that survey I would say the gate to heaven is narrow and few pass thru it and the Gate to Hell is wide with alot of people on the road getting ready to go in.

    Report Post » Gypsy123  
    • Major Infidel
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:24pm

      You people really are narrow minded bible thumpers. I like your politics, but your outlook on faith and the higher powers that be, is just ignorant. As a rule, I never believe anything thats been manipulated by man, until proven. Just remember that the church is the oldest business in the world, and the most powerful. Don’t be fooled by ancient scare tactics that were needed to control the barbaric masses. Kinda like Santa for our kids.

      I believe Jesus wanted us to worship in a much different way, one that doesn’t include donations and collection plates.

      Report Post » Major Infidel  
  • sirocco78
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:06pm

    “Nothing is deemed right or wrong, and all ideas, beliefs and practices are assigned equal validity. Everyone is invited to join the dialogue, enjoy the ride, and feel connected to a far-reaching community of believers. Screening or critiquing what that community believes is deemed rude and inappropriate. Pragmatism and relativism, rather than any sort of absolutism, has gained momentum”

    This is Satanic.

    Report Post » sirocco78  
    • Gypsy123
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:12pm

      You are so right. I would guess from that survey only about 1/4 of the people are christians with the rest thinking they are.

      Report Post » Gypsy123  
    • Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:17pm

      No. It’s just not Christian. Just like Shinto is… not Christian. Just like Hinduism is… not Christian.

      The only way it‘s Satanic is if you define Satanism as everything that’s … not Christian.

      You’ve gotta come to grips with the fact that at no time and in no place has Christianity ever been the only game in town.

      Report Post » Lesbian Packing Hollow Points  
    • 338lapua
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 8:46pm

      @gypsy, you give people too much credit! 25% is high.

      Report Post »  
  • JediKnight
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:59pm

    22% of Christians believe in reincarnation?! Um, WOW! I just can’t comprehend how the percentage can be that high. I can’t think of a single denomination of christianity that professes such a belief, especially when there’s no evidence in scripture to support it.

    Report Post »  
    • LinkedIn G
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:26pm

      Nancy Pelosi was probably one taking part in the survey … and her favorite word … the bird … wait …no … the word is her favorite word. Word.

      Report Post » LinkedIn G  
  • wordweaver
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:59pm

    My faith has never been about picking and choosing what I like and pushing the rest aside. To think that a large group of people is starting to view their relationship with God in this way is disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. Increasingly in our modern world we have the opportunity to program our lives to our own convenience. I’ll never allow myself to presume what I should believe and obey where God is concerned. That’s His job. In the last days, beware of false prophets…

    Report Post » wordweaver  
  • neiman1
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:58pm

    People have always formed their own religious experience. Every Christian denomination broke away from something because of a difference in dogma. The Protestants all came from the Catholic Church. The Angelican Church exists because a King couldn’t get a divorce. From Methodist to Baptists, they all broke off wanting a sect that believes as they. Now people do it individually instead of as a group.

    Report Post »  
    • dittodan
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:22pm

      @neiman1
      You don’t know your history. The anabaptists, Waldensians, NEVER broke away from the Catholic church. They are still here and have exististed since Jesus Christ set it up.

      Report Post »  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 11:16am

      DITTODAN- Jesus never created a “Church”. In fact, it seems that he was less interested in a centralized religion, and more interested in the enlightenment of his father’s children.

      Report Post »  
  • Banter
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:58pm

    “Jesus died for this?” Well, actually he died for our sins, and is the only way, the truth, and the hope for this world. I don’t recall anything in the Bible about choosing religion the way you buy a car.

    Report Post » Banter  
    • Beowulf_Agate
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:13am

      he did not come to redeem mankind just ONE people:
      Matthew 15:24
      But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

      Report Post » Beowulf_Agate  
  • cdcats8
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:57pm

    I believe there are a lot of idiots out there that just like to spout off for the sake of “shocking the public” I know what I know and if YOU don‘t know or don’t want to know what will it matter? I still know.

    Report Post »  
  • tmead
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:53pm

    I attend a non denominational, bible based church which has been growing 30%/yr for over a decade. It is incredibly active in mission work and follows biblical instructions closely. It is the most alive spiritually church I have ever attended. I think the sheep are dividing from the ‘goats’

    Report Post »  
  • TH30PH1LUS
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:49pm

    Two thoughts:

    1. Church Leadership. Revisit the book of Acts. People did not find Christianity boring. If it’s boring, you’re doing it wrong.

    2. Believers. Revisit Hebrews 10:25. We need each other. Get in the game.

    Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
  • LeeroyJenkins
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:44pm

    LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSssss…

    Report Post »  
  • ares338
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:42pm

    What the Blazes business is it of his? That has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China!

    Report Post » ares338  
  • stumblemouth
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:38pm

    Making religion into a morally relativistic hodgepodge is about avoiding truth and responsibility.

    Report Post » stumblemouth  
    • tower7femacamp
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:47pm

      the Blaze policy for deleting post
      We will delete comments, without notice, that:

      * Violate our Terms of Use
      * Are abusive, harassing, threatening or vulgar
      * Contain advertising or spam including signature lines to other sites
      * Are disruptive to the conversation or overall site
      * Anything from Alex Jones
      * Anything against Rothschilds
      * Anything that exposes Glenn as a Hypocrite
      * Anything that might bring people to the truth that both parties are working for the NWO
      * Name calling and cursing is really ok as long as it’s a Blaze employee trashing a truther

      Report Post » tower7femacamp  
    • AvengerK
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:48pm

      It’s not up for debate…Jesus was tortured and crucifed. He died and rose from the dead after three days. This was done to redeem mankind and bear our sins. You don’t just “believe what you want” after that.

      Report Post »  
    • chipmunk
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 9:57pm

      @STUPIDMOUTH
      For your information I am NOT a blaze employee although I will readily accept compensation. And that nasty rumor that I am a Glenn Beck family member is just that, a very nasty rumor. If we were related I would insist on a raise, er uh, I mean pay. And I only recently began cursing. But that’s due to Toureets. I swear.

      But seriously, I think the Blaze system is overcooking or something. I post conservative items that get lost & never post. Also, I assume the system automatically censors for certain words etc.. which is a common practice. A few words are not in that catchall though & go through. If another blazer reports a post, it may be removed. That’s all. No conspiracy against the crazy lying liberals. Who are also free btw to move on at any time! Or even create their own popular web site. And by that I mean you!!! JK! :)

      Report Post »  
    • chipmunk
      Posted on September 15, 2011 at 10:03pm

      Oops, not @MUMBLEMOUTH

      @FEMACAMPCRAZY

      And coincidentally, one of my posts was just pulled!!! I’m assuming for a very bad word. That accidentally slipped through! I did think it would be edited but it was not!!

      So see there !!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Report Post »  
    • chipmunk
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 1:08am

      It’s getting late, can I go to bed now Uncle Glenn? I’ve made enough positive posts about you tonight.

      What?? How do you delete this?

      Report Post »  
    • stumblemouth
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 2:42am

      @SLIPDRUNK You’re as hilarious as a visit to the cancer ward. Ask the Wizard for a brain.

      Report Post » stumblemouth  
    • mydh12
      Posted on September 16, 2011 at 12:39pm

      People making up their own private religion is like the original sin. People still want to be their own god, making their own rules.

      Report Post »  
  • This_Individual
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:37pm

    As long as there is no government mandate against citizens practicing the way they wish, it doesn’t matter to me or our constitution.

    Report Post »  
  • chipmunk
    Posted on September 15, 2011 at 7:33pm

    Oops, you mean you’re supposed to read the article BEFORE you post something?

    Report Post »  
1 2 3 4

Sign In To Post Comments! Sign In

Sign Up For Our Newsletter!

Glenn Beck Radio

Listen to Glenn Beck 24/7 Listen Now
Restoring Love