Armed Man at Mormon Temple Killed in Utah Shootout
- Posted on December 25, 2010 at 7:37pm by
Scott Baker
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SOUTH JORDAN, Utah (AP) — A man armed with a shotgun outside a Mormon temple near Salt Lake City was shot and killed by police Christmas Day, a television station reported Saturday.
The man had been in an altercation with another man in the parking lot outside the Oquirrh Mountain Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in South Jordan, Fox13 said.
The confrontation began about 12:30 p.m. Police arrived shortly afterward and repeatedly ordered the shotgun-toting man to drop the weapon, South Jordan police Lt. Dan Starks said.
When he refused, one officer opened fire, Starks said.
“Officers obviously wanted him to stop. They were fearing for their own safety as well as the safety of those individuals that were here on site already,” Starks told the television station. “He failed to comply with that so he was shot. Unfortunately, it killed him.”
Officers found numerous weapons, including guns, swords and ammunition, inside the dead man’s car, Starks said.
It wasn’t clear how many shots were fired by police. Starks said the officer has been placed on administrative leave pending an internal investigation and a review by the Salt Lake County district attorney’s office.
Police haven’t said whether the two men were acquaintances or how the confrontation between them started.
___
Information from: KSTU-TV, http://www.fox13now.com
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Comments (216)
snufy
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:02pmI’m a retired large city police officer. We are trained to shoot to kill, not ‘wing’ them. Confrontations of this kind are in the hands of the the offender, and the officer has to make life and death decisions instantly. Armchair quarterbacks can say we should have done differently, but they were not on the scene. We aren’t always perfectly right, but we get paid to be on the front lines so that you won’t have to be. People that commit these crimes are usually deranged, but a 12 year old or a woman can kill you just as dead as a male adult. Our officers have been murdered when they stop vehicles for no more than having a tail light out. We never know who the person is that we’re dealing with, and have to be ever vigilant. We get little respect from the public and our only friends are usually other officers. Many departments have civillian ride-along policies. It would be a good experience for those of you who are interested to ride along with a police officer on patrol, one time. It’ll give you a whole new outlook on our job. Thank you.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:05amThank you, snufy!
Report Post »Montana Libertarian
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 1:03pmAs a retired CPS investigator who worked felony child sex crimes with cops, I spenr many, many hours in squad and detective cars. I endorse your excellent essay, Snufy. Things can go bad in less than a heartbeat. I worked a small rural area, so we often knew who we were dealing with. I can‘t imagine working an urban area where you seldom know who you’re talking to.
Report Post »franknshadow
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:01pmI carry a pistol with laser sights, and a body shot is all I’ll ever attempt… Scared is scared, and you will never defensively draw your weapon without being scared stupid.. I am speaking to sane, thinking people here.. Not the loonies that like shooting people… It’s damn tough to practice real life scenarios but it helps, a little…
Report Post »Jerbear1098
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:36pmQuiet…. You have never experienced an adrenaline dump. Those that have trained have not even done a complete dump unless you are in live fire exercises. I have never experienced it but came close in training. Limb and head shots are not an option in the real world. Center mass is taught and is the standard for concealed classes and for the most part law enforcement.
just sayin….
Report Post »SlimnRanger
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:32pmThe devil is like a roaring lion,seeking those whom he may devour and mercy sakes he sure has devoured alot of folks latley
Report Post »Sergio Q
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:24pmI APPLAUD THE POLICE FOR QUICKLY DIFUSEING THIS !!! …thats how it outta be done , I dont care in the slightest about why or anything else just squelch the situation & IF he was mentally ill , good news; …HES CURED!
Report Post »Too much namby-pamby dont take a life bullroar (but abortion is O.K. ,,,talk about bullroar!! ,defend the unborn , kill the unrulie I say!!) ,now to use such simple and efficent tatics with Islam would be a good thing!!!
DeltaHawk
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:21pmHarry Reid is a moron oops , mormon. Go figure. One of ‘em is probably hosing the guys wife
Report Post »tranquilrider
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:37pmCongrats. The dumbest post on the thread. Nice work, you did have some competition today.
Report Post »franknshadow
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:53pmYeah Deltahawk.. You deserve the prize for the stupidest thing I’ve read all day, and I’ve been reading posts all day.. Your Mother must be so proud…
Report Post »civilunrestnow
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:13pmBad guy died of lead poisoning. I’m laughing my jingle bells off. Am I cynical? No. My father was a police officer for 25 years. I worried every time he went to work I would never see him again because of trash like this. I joined the department a few years after he retired then my wife had to worry.
Report Post »Sergio Q
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:39pmMay God bless you & your Father for your service to the good folks under your respective jurisdictions.
Report Post »Centurion_
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:38pmLaw enforcement are trained to shoot center of mass. That would be the stomach and chest area. They are also trained to only use lethal force after determining (and being able to articulate facts and circumstances to support) that the situation presented no reasonable alternative.
Ever shoot a handgun? None but the very best can hit the center of a paper target on a range with any consistancy from more than about twenty five yards.
Now factor into that the rush of adrenaline, fear, anxiety, the need to shoot quickly to avoid a return shot(s), the need to also observe the background for bystanders, concern for where the ricochet might go if you miss… I could go on.
And even if you were to hit someone in the leg, it wouldn’t necessarily stop them from returning fire.
I think the best idea is to not to put someone in the postion of having to shoot in the first place.
Report Post »byehlik
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:15pmDeath by cop. There goes another nut bag. Religion had nothing to do with this. Be prepaired.
Report Post »twofoot_trucker
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:04pmThose talking about shooting limbs, it’s not realistic. In a situation where a weapon comes out, the adrenaline automatically starts to flow. That makes a person jittery enough that going for a leg, or an arm, or anything other than a good center mass shot, a foolish risk to life.
It takes firing thousands of rounds a year to overcome this natural human reaction. Cops aren’t Navy SEALs or Marine Force Recon operators, or any other kind of special forces types. They have niether the time, nor the money, to become so amazing with a pistol that they can hit a movin kneecap from 40 feet.
And out of curiosity, what happens if they aim for the leg and hit it? And shred through the femoral artery? The end result is the same, a criminal dead on the street from their own stupdity.
Report Post »Modawg734Blue
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:08pmThe truth is the man holding the shotgun, made a decision not to surrender. The officer involved did his job, correctly. If he had shot the perpitrator in the arm or leg,and wounded him, the shotgun welding criminal, could have fired his weapon. Anyone who has seen the devistation a shotgun has on living flesh knows the officer made the correct decision. If I were the officer involved, I would rather explain why I had to take this mans life, than explain to grieving family members of a victim, why I allowed their family member to be murdeded in front of me.
Report Post »zagfan
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:02pmA deranged man threatens some one and is shot and you accuse the Mormon’s of having a Confused Life? You are misinformed, the life they lead is not confusing at all..and no, they don’t have many wives any longer if that is what you are referring to!
No Mormon has ever gone on welfare, they take care of their own..real confusing huh?
Report Post »ms4kidz
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:11pm‘No Mormon has ever gone on welfare, they take care of their own..real confusing huh?’
They do too go on welfare. I’ve got Mormon neighbors on food stamps and unemployment, medicaid for their kids. Some are more prepared than others for unemployment, etc.
Report Post »walkwithme1966
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 2:55amWow, that is a really broad statement to make – and you know every Mormon personally? Sweeping generalizations need to be stopped when you speak about something that you could not possibly know! It is done all the time on this website with sweeping generalization about liberals. http://maboulette.workpress.com
Report Post »Clive
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 4:07pmI have a feeling that their changing stance on polygamy had nothing to do with the realization that it was primitive, cruel, and stupid, but that the gov’t said “we will throw you in jail if you continue to do this”.
Report Post »Psychosis
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:55pmand what with the connection to the mormon church, other than it happening in their parking lot? why would the parking lot be of importance?
this, other than being a sad case of a deranged man, is nothing more than an attempt (editorial attempt ) to link violence to some religion, without any evidence to support it.
this type of reporting is what is wrong with the media.
Report Post »silveracer44
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:32pmAgreed.
Report Post »tranquilrider
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:36pmAgreed
Report Post »GiGi80
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 8:32amNo connection to the Mormon temple, except the implicit connection that seems meant reinforce some weird theory about some imagined conspiracy. As I read the article I was frankly amazed that there was not a hint that the deranged man was a Muslim or a “progressive” who believes in Christ’s teachings about social justice.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:45pmWe shall learn directly from the bible, not a 19th century supplement that’s later repealed, yet mormans continue their confused lives.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:51pmEven Catholics have got it wrong.
Report Post »CRoyce
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:59pmThe only thing I’ve read on this page that sounds “confused” is your comment, poverty.sucks.
Report Post »pavnvet
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:01pmKind of curious why you are on here since Mr. Beck is a member of the LDS church?
Report Post »Jim
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:10pmYou have it wrong, poverty.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:11pmArmed man at selfish Temple makes sense to you?
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:20pmWhat’s right about mormanism? Why Can’t they teach from the bible and must create “their own book” ?
silveracer44
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:31pmThe Bible was not to be added to.
Report Post »7HAM
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:33pmYou are a moron.
Report Post »7HAM
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:34pmMormons teach from the KJV Bible, idiot.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:45pmMormonism is an invention by the white men to advance their own selfish agenda. Gods words are true, let them be under Gods curse.
mchris
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:22pmThe fact that you sir are bringing up such an irrelevant topic at a time of such tragedy gives me and many others here cause to question your motives and creates a great deal of suspicion about your motives. Your sad retort while ignoring the cost of human life shows the pathetic nature your true character. You sir in my opinion DO NOT represent most Americans in this country. YOU TAKE NOTICE OF NOTHING MORE THAN YOUR OWN PERSONAL AGENDA AT THE EXPENSE OF SUCH LOSS OF LIFE!!
My question to you is this: What is the source or cause of such reckless vitriol you are spewing? You have the right to reveal yourself here and your prejudiced views according to your rights as an American citizen (assuming you are of course an American citizen), but I also have the right to evaluate your statements myself and judge for myself that you are uninformed/ignorant at best. If you have a personal problem with these mormons, then you sir ought to have enough personal honor to keep those things to yourself. Your statements here are completely irrelevant and inappropriate to this discussion. Stay on topic POVERTY!
Report Post »Dale
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:41pmsilveracer44;
As I recall, the statement that nothing shall be added to this book applies only to Revelations. Although Revelations is the last book of the Bible, it was NOT the last book written. New Testament books (Paul’s Epistles) were organized according to size, not date. John did not know many of the other books existed. How, then, could he make such a statement about the whole Bible; he didn’t know what the Bible is.
Report Post »franknshadow
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:49pmWhere did it say anything about Mormons other than it was their Temple?? You Mormon chasers are an incredibly focused bunch aren’t you?? Not that bright, but incredibly focused..
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:52pmPlease excuse me for spoiling your pity party for Mormons and ungodly erected Temples.
The officer, from what I gather, did his job with superior force. He’s just in receiving his week off with pay and spending that with his family.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:04pmWho’s chasing Mormons, I’m just in calling them out.
Report Post »h3tec
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:09pmeveryone is entitled to have their belief system. This man could not have harmed anyone at the temple on Christmas, it was closed and locked up tight. This man had his crazy belief system, now he gets to find out what the other side is like. I’m sorry for him, everyone that loved him, and for the officers that did the shooting. there are better ways to solve problems.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:15pmTouring a Mormon temple, reading their literature, is similar to attending a Buffalo Bills football game, other than the playing field, can you find the African-American? I recall SNL having a segment on that issue.
Boilervet
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:36pmThe Temple is closed. He was not attending the temple in any way shape for form. Anyone can get on the temple grounds. The man that was shot probably attends the same self-righteous church as this social justice loving poverty.sucks sap. One day you too will gain the same amount of knowledge as the rest of us and you are going to regret your ignorance,
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:43pmWhat’s the significant of a Mormon Temple? Who does that? Educate me.
Report Post »benrush
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:44pmMr. Poverty sucker, you are entitled to your own beliefs, and I am entitled to mine, that the Book of Mormon is scripture. You could try reading both. It is reasonable to conclude that the similarities of presentation running through both books are characteristic of all Scripture, that if the Lord spoke anciently, he can speak today, and that there will yet be more revelation in the future if you will accept what the Lord has already revealed.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:50amHow does the Book of Morons reference Bible Scriptures?
Report Post »NorCal
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 1:42amPoverty, if you really would like to know I am sure there are some missionaries close to you that can come over and explain it to you.
Report Post »Beattendown
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 10:44amHey poverty dude…The jews were around LONG befor you muzlems stole from there holy shat and started your own vershion in the 6th centery…hey…those cathlics were first also..and wasnt that mohamed dude some Persan?…woun’t that make him ANGLO…you know…a WHITE MAN! hate begets, hate blood brings only more My “god” would not forgive me if I didnot destroy anyone who tried to harm me or mine! and just as inportent is NEVER FOOK WITH AN INOCENT!
Report Post »Modawg734Blue
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:32pm@Poverty.SUCKS
Report Post »Have you read the Book of Mormon? Do you know what they believe, or are you judging based on what you have been told? Personally, I do not agree with some of the bliefs of the Mormons, but I do respect their God given right to worship God how they choose. This is one of the founding principles of this great nation. If we condemn anothers beliefs, because we do not agree with them, can we reasonably expect to be allowed to follow our beliefs without the fear of persecution? If they wish to build a temple, what business is it of yours. If you wish to argue the validity of a set of religious beliefs, you must first fully understand what you are arguing against and what you are arguing for. Do not be consumed with blind hate, that is not what Christ taught.
Montana Made
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 1:00pm@Poverty-
I’m sorry you have such a negative view of the Church (and religion as a whole, it seems)- not sure why, just sorry you do.
As far a scripture- yes, the Book of Mormon is considered scripture- even in the courts, as well as by all members of the Church. It quotes Isaiah quite extensively and refers back to Jeruselem often.
The Temples are considered sacred as well, and the ground they stand on. This was a tragic case of someone not in their right mind on sacred ground.
What happens in the Temple is considered sacred, but to give a basic overview- the higher laws of God are learned and other covenents are made with Him. Members are given further instruction and knowledge of their Father in Heaven. It is meant for members only, and one must have a Temple Recommend to attend. ALL members are invited to attend- of any nationality and race. This is why there are Temples all over the world, so everyone can have a chance to attend. The Church does not see race or nationality as a barrier- all are welcome. Anyone is allowed on the grounds of a Temple to see what they are and learn or to just look around.
As far as a “19th Century, Man Made religion”- I have a couple questions to answer your question- Why would God just suddenly stop speaking to his people at the end of the biblical period and leave man to his own devises? What would he profit from doing this?
Report Post »His one and only purpose for mankind to exist is for man to return to Him after mortality, and it makes no sense to abandon them- especially at this time in history- we need Him now more than ever! I would hate to think of my Heavenly Father turning His back on me, or you.
Dale
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 2:46pm@Montana Made: well said
@Poverty-: I have a question for you. Give me one example of what the LDS Church has done to limit freedom, challenge Constitutional law, abandon its members, refuse helping natural-disaster
Report Post »victims. Give me one example: you may find individuals not following Church doctrine, but an example of the Church acting badly. Then ask yourself why you denigrate the Church. Do you have all the facts – I think not. Perhaps you should do a little research before you embarrass yourself.
Islesfordian
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 6:14pm“Why would God just suddenly stop speaking to his people at the end of the biblical period and leave man to his own devises? What would he profit from doing this?”
One answer to this would be to note that with the establishment of the church and the sending of the Holy Spirit to dwell in every believer God has changed his relationship to his people so that they are not dependent upon individual prophets to establish the communication with God. Now everyone has access through the same spirit. Furthermore, now that the fullness of God’s revelation has come in the form of Jesus we can believe that we have received all that God has to tell us. We only need time to grow in our understanding of it.
But let me pose a responding question: If you see the need for continual “prophecies” from God to insure that we are led by him how do we account for a 1,700 year gap between the Revelation to John and the Book of Mormon? Why would God be silent so long? It seems that the obvious answer is that God has shown that his people needed no more revelation after the end of the age of the apostles. We have the Bible now as a completed canon. For God to resume prophecies after so long a period of “silence” should require massive signs and miracles to attest to its authenticity, like healing lepers, casting out demons and raising people from the dead (things Jesus did).
You can’t just CLAIM to be a prophet. You have to PROVE it.
Report Post »Montana Made
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 7:48pm@Islesfordian
Who ever said the Nacian Creed was right? This was a council of men in the 3rd century who decided what was in and what was out. Books were completely dismissed because they said so. And now we are to believe the Bible to be a complete canon? I doubt seriously that it is, though the books contained are the words of God.
You are right in one sense- that the Spirirt is with man now, but that does not discount revelation- it did, does and will continue until the end days are fulfilled.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 8:25pmIt’s the Nicene Creed, first set in the Council of Nicea in 325, the 4th century. It is a mistaken belief that the Canon was set then. Most of what is now the NT was generally agreed upon by the middle of the 3rd century 100 years before Nicea. The remainder of the discussion would not involve books deemed heretical but rather books read within some churches but not accepted by the whole church as being of the same degree of authority as the apostles’ writings, books like Clement and The Shepherd of Hermas. These works are still read today in the church and valued above the writings of greta theologians, but they are still not part of the canon. All were written by the turn of the 1st century. No work was considered Scripture if it was known to be written after the death of the last eyewitness of Jesus. That is what Scripture is, the living witness of those who saw what the Gospels testify. Once they were dead their witness lived on in their texts and through it the Spirit leads us into all truth. Only a belief that their witness was incomplete would necessitate further revelation. Given that the last writing of those witnesses, the Revelation to John, brings us a detailed vision of the end of the age and the Day of Resurrection and commands that no one must add or subtract from this prophecy I would say that there is strong evidence that God has revealed everything to us that we need to know.
You think God has continued to speak as he did to the prophets? It would be nice to know what your evidence is. Where is your line of prophets linking back to the apostles? History is not so mysterious that people can just claim things without evidence and expect them to be treated with the same credence as attested historical facts.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 9:53pmHow do we overcome the world system? Jesus Christ is the victor. Believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God our creator. Believe what he has taught. Then you’ll believe that he will be victorious in the final analysis. If that faith isn’t present, you’ll be swept along with the world system.
The fact that non of the founding fathers who most had seminary degrees, nor the Websters had signed off on this invention of Mormonism further discredits the notion of erecting members only Temples. Add to that the selfish nature of the white man and desires for multiple wives and the exclusion of the African-Americans. This continent wasn’t created for the false prophecy of Mr Smith, history shows the ones who benefited the most are African Slaves, who taught them to read? Christians, not Mormon.
A Christian church is inviting to all, membership and dues not requires and you’re welcome to leave anytime.
False religion doesn’t always come to pass. The Holy Bible is the tool that determines truth from falsehood. Upon more reading of the Book of Morons I’ll be inviting their missionaries to see the light so they can make their own choices in this life.
Report Post »Montana Made
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 12:26amYou are correct- Nicene. I realized I mis-spelled it after I posted- thank you for the correction.
And as much as I appreciate the history lesson- I keep coming to one conclusion. There is no more proof in the history you are reciting then in the Joseph Smith history or the Book of Mormon. This is the accepted theory of the origins of scripture, but, you are basing this logic on years of man-made written history that has been passed down through written word and schooling- but as you asked- where is the proof? Simply- there is none. It is on the word of man- and it does not stretch back that far- and if it does- have you personally seen it- all the way back to the prophets of old and the Apostles? If you have not- then you must have a leap of faith to believe it.
It takes a leap of faith to believe. To believe in first- God. And in His son Jesus Christ. And the Apostles. And in the Spirit. And the scriptures to be the word of God. I believe these to all be real and true. I also believe that the Spirit does speak to mankind today- and if this is true, and from God- then prophecy does exist- for this is the very nature of prophecy.
There are things in this world that can not simply be proven- but are true. Faith is what makes us have those beliefs. I can not prove the Book of Mormon to be true no more than you can- but I believe it to be so- because of faith. You are asking for proof of things that can not be proven. Even the prophets of old were not believed in their own time- even Jesus Himself. How are people to believe today unless they have faith to believe?
Report Post »Dale
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 12:57amIsles;
You confuse me. You said, “That is what Scripture is, the living witness of those who saw what the Gospels testify….” Surely you refer to the New Testament, but what of the Old Testament; is that not scripture? You, I hope, can see my confusion. Either There is only one scripture, The New Testament, or we have scripture other than by ‘those who saw what the Gospels testify’. If you believe the Old Testament, then you realize that there needs be two witnesses. You have the Bible, but where is the second witness? The Bible is Judah’s record. Where are Dan’s, Gad’s, Reuben’s, etc. The Book of Mormon is Joseph’s witness, thus establishing truth from two witnesses.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 9:05am“where is the proof? Simply- there is none. It is on the word of man- and it does not stretch back that far- and if it does- have you personally seen it- all the way back to the prophets of old and the Apostles?”
Montana made, I HAVE seen this evidence in my studies of history. Even the atheists attest to the existence of early writings of Christians. They may not believe what the early Christians did but they can see that there is clear evidence of what they did believe. I have stated elsewhere that it is wrong to assume that all historical claims are equal. There IS such a thing as evidence.
Glenn is always going on about us not taking his word but checking it out for ourselves. This is very commendable. because the evidence is out there. Truth is not that hard to find, but you have to be willing to look and QUESTION WITH BOLDNESS. Establish for yourself what are the standards for evidence you expect in any investigation and apply them to the historical claims of your own faith. Christianity is the most historically rooted of any religion. We believe in God because he has done things to give us that faith. And we know what he has done because there are witnesses who have seen and recorded it. And these witnesses are known to us and connected to us in an historical body called the church.
The theologian Karl Barth wrote about the possibility of finding in the sands of Eygypt or somewhere a lost letter of Paul or Peter that could be added to the canon. I doubt such a thing would be accepted. I certainly would not accept it. The writings we have now we know the church has always had. We know they date from the time of the apostles and have been read in the church as apostolic writings from that time. They were not FOUND. No Scripture is ever FOUND. They were RECEIVED and PRESERVED. The arguments over the canon in the early church was due to churches in the east having a list of books read in worship that differed from the list of western churches and southern churches. Everyone had the 4 Gosples and Acts and Paul’s 13 letters, but some had Hebrews but not Revelation while also including the Didache and Clement. Others had Revelation and not James or Hebrews while adding Hermas. No one was suspected of being unChristain for not agreeing on the list because all the books were Christian. Yet no one accepted as Christians had the Gospel of Thomas. This book was known to have suspicious origens. The early Christians were quite demanding of rigorous chains of evidence to insure the message stayed true. We should be too.
Dale, there is no such thing as Judah’s witness. Judah has no voice separate from Gad or Rueben or anyone else. God chose prophets in those days to write God‘s words to his people and to record through divine inspiration the history of God’s dealings with them and their record of faith and faithlessness. The OT is the witness of God’s people before Jesus came. They are the Scriptures that speak of Christ from the vantage of expectation. The NT are the scriptures that speak of Christ from the vantage of fulfillment. The early is naturally less clear than the later. It was foreshadowing what was to come. This is made clear in the Epistle to the Hebrews. These two witnesses of the Old and New Testament are a single witness, a single canon. Having received the fulfillment we can now fully understand the prophecies written earlier, just as the two men walking to Emmaus had their understandiung of Scripture (the OT) opened up for them by Jesus. Our TWO witnesses today are the Scriptures (OT and NT together) and the Holy Spirit who inspired them and who dwells in us and leads us in reading them so that we may see the Christ of whom they spoke. It is the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father through the Son, who leads us into
Report Post »Dale
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 12:01pmIslesfordian;
I have to ask about your conviction to a book, and close your mind to the possibility of other scripture. Your Scriptural definition is extremely limited. Your Scripture comes from a limited source, closely controlled, and ‘verified’. However, within your Scripture there are contradictions. There are many versions from the KJV to ASV and NIV. Which version is correct? How do you know? My Scripture is according to Matt.4:4 “But he, (Jesus), answered and said, It is written,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Not having been here since Adam’s time, I must rely on writings for God’s word. I don’t limit where these words originate, nor how they come to me. I don’t limit a Being who calms the seas, walks on water, and raises the dead.
Your comment that no Scripture is ever FOUND is interesting. The Dead Sea Scrolls (perhaps scripture) were found. The how do you explain their existence?
Report Post »Montana Made
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 2:24pmI seriously doubt you have SEEN the evidence- since as far as it it is known- the actual letters from the Apostles do not exist any longer. It has all now been copied from that source, and as we know- has been changed over the centuries. We have all read the words and heard the teachers and scholars. We study, pray and ponder. We ask God if it is so- and the spirit- if we are ready for the answer- speaks to us and tells us so. But at some point faith must enter in. At some point you either believe the words or you don’t.
What I am saying is I wouldn’t rely so heavily on “proof” of mankind. The proof we seek is in our hearts and is whispered to us by the spirit- if only we would listen.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 2:38pm“There are many versions from the KJV to ASV and NIV. Which version is correct?”
These are TRANSLATIONS. I learned to read the originals in Greek. There ARE minor variations within the various manuscripts, but nothing of any significance. It is the text as written by the author, both human and divine, which is correct. Anyone with a good grounding in Koine Greek and an attention to the principles of translation can discover which are the better translations.
All Scripture is inspired by God. But it is not on our authority alone to declare what is Scripture. Otrherwise I could choose for myself texts that pleased me and justified what I wanted to do. This is not to limit God. It is to accept God’s limitations on us.
“Your comment that no Scripture is ever FOUND is interesting. The Dead Sea Scrolls (perhaps scripture) were found. The how do you explain their existence?”
Those were copies of known texts, just like the copy of the Law found in the Temple in the days of Ezra. It was not a new or unknown scripture. I would LOVE to find a copy of NT texts as old as the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I trust the copies we have enough not to feel a NEED to go searching in the sand. Those scrolls, by the way, proved that our versions of the same texts have been faithfully translated over the centuries.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 3:04pm“It has all now been copied from that source, and as we know- has been changed over the centuries. ”
As I just posted above, the Dead Sea Scrolls proove that it is false to say they have been changed over centuries. That was the accusation made by Rationalist critics back in the 18th and 19th centuries. They knew nothing about how sacred texts are treated within believing communities. Great care was taken to make exact copies, especially in Jewish translations. People memorized the Scriptures, so no one could get away with making changes without it being discovered and corrected.
“What I am saying is I wouldn’t rely so heavily on “proof” of mankind. The proof we seek is in our hearts and is whispered to us by the spirit- if only we would listen”
This kind of “proof” is no proof at all, for it allows everyone to believe just what they want to believe if it seems good to them, and we all lnow what happens when people do and believe what is good “in their own eyes” Judges 21:24
God does not speak to us through our hearts alone. Our hearts are deceitful above all things and desparately sick: who can understand them? Jeremiah 17:9 What we think we hear in our hearts must be judged by Scripture, scripture written by men inspired by God and then entrusted to men to preserve it for us to read. If we will not trust men in the process of God’s transmission of his truth we leave ourselves no way to objectively hear him outside our deffective and untrustworthy understanding.
Such radical skepticism as you are advocating would rob us of all truth except that which we chose to believe. But I sincerely doubt that any Mormon rejects totally the evidence of men, for the Mormon leaders are also men, and it is from men that they have learned of the teachings of Joseph Smith.
Do not doubt that the God who has made himself known in the flesh will also provide tangible evidence to discern the truth about him. The Bereans trusted that they could test the witness of Paul and Silas by the Scriptures. They did not just look into their hearts.
Report Post »Montana Made
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 5:12pmThe fact the scriptures have been translated means that at least some meaning has been lost- either in invection, impression or in word. The fact we have so many different churches and religions in the world and even in the same towns and cities suggests there are different interpretations of the same words. And I would never suggest to abandon all thought to faith based judgement- that would indicate a lack of common sense on my part. I liked your take- that as Glenn has suggested, no- insisted, we check things out for ourselves- don’t believe me, but look for yourself. Sounds like to me- you have. I’m still a little perplexed as to what you have found, or if you HAVE found what you’re looking for, but not for a lack of trying- you have an impressive, if not extensive, depth of knowledge! I have done that on my part- and am convinced to a satisfactory part that these things are true. Had I relied on finding proof from my fellow man- I’d probably still be looking. I had to rely on a faith based leap as some point to get me from point A to point B. I still study and seek all the time- but for different truths at this point- deeper meanings to God’s word.
I will say- I have enjoyed going back and forth with you!! Thank You!
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 9:28pm“The fact the scriptures have been translated means that at least some meaning has been lost”
Yes, this is true. It is one of the sadnesses of being separarted by time and language from the original texts. But I am a strong believer in Providence. I believe God has insured that a nuance in paul will be made up for in Peter or James, for I believe that no essential truth will depend only upon one text. It will be covered from many different angles so that its deeper meaning can be accessible once we read Scripture as a single book. Modern critical interpretation generally denies this reality. But that‘s because they don’t believe, and it is why they don’t believe. Lacking the gift of faith, which you are right to note as essential, they cannot see God behind the things he has created.
I do believe there are truths not revealed in Scripture, but only hinted at. They are not essential for us now, but await our exploration once we have mastered the simpler basic truths and corrected our natural ignorance and rebellion by them. So what I am “looking for” are the deeper understandings of God and the universe that I know I will find because I am confident in the knowledge of God I have now. We are finite creatures exploring the infinite, but the Infinite has become finite flesh for us to know him. That one sentence encapsulates my theology.
Report Post »twofoot_trucker
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:43pm“He failed to comply with that so he was shot. Unfortunately, it killed him.”
Why, “unfortunaely”? I know how we got here. But what I don’t understand is, how we allowed ourselves to go through the process that got us to this point. That we are so neutered that we have to bemoan the death of somebody who was threatening the life of others is what is saddest to me.
Report Post »Bunnie
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:26amThank the clintons…that is where all the political b/s correctness and neutering of the men in this country began. As well as the moral decline in this country… When people who occupy the White House have the integrity and moral character of a cockroach, the bar is lowered. Now with a communist liar occupying the White House, the moral character of a cockroach would be a step up!
Report Post »twofoot_trucker
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 11:37amOldphoto; Fail! That I don’t care if a man threatening the lives of others was shot and killed does NOT translate into any type of racism. That you somehow think the two are related says more about you than my lack of empathy for a dead criminal says about me.
Report Post »clipper
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:09pmHow soon before he was a bible thumping,gun loving,tea bagging,Obama hating,racist,republican who loves Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin and voted for McCain?
Report Post »rosie100
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:43pmthere is nothing in this article to indicate that he could not have been taken out by shooting a leg instead of killing him. I am shocked at all the assumptions that he should have been killed. I think the cops in a lot of places are a little trigger/kill happy.
Report Post »Dustyluv
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:18pmYou take out the trash, you don’t play with it…
Report Post »SlimnRanger
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:21pmsorry Rosie i understand your comment but police officers, prison guards and so forth are trained if they are required to use their gun then shoot to kill,the armed man brought it all on himself no sad to say i am sure he had family that are heartbroken over the loss of their loved one plus the mental stress on the police officer
Report Post »CaptMike
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:56pmUnfortunately, Rosie, it doesn’t work that way. The average gunfight is on the order of a couple of seconds and decisions are in the split-seconds, and when you shoot – you shoot too kill; if the perp survives, you need to spend more time at the range. Hesitations can get yourself killed. The most important thing to learn from this is – whether your a good guy or a bad guy – when and officer-of-the-law says, “DROP IT!!!” – do exactly what he says – immediately – freeze – and keep your hands in sight.
Report Post »WISEPENNY
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:09pmThe guy in Florida was shot in the leg (the school board shooter). Do you recall his reaction? He emptied all but one round in his weapon trying to kill the security guard before turning the gun on himself. In retrospect, the security guard should have shot to kill, immediately. It had only one ending that was justified. I side with the cops. No need for hero antics. It will get you killed.
Report Post »zoo9guy
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:44pmThreat neutralized…… honey, I’ll be home for dinner.
Report Post »DSTSS2010
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 7:01amThe man is shot in the leg, as he falls he pulls the trigger of his shotgun and blows the head off of a child. That is why you shoot to kill an armed, agitated madman.
Report Post »Reagan/DeMint.deciple
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 9:22amI mean no offense, but you are stupid.. Oh ,ok none taken… lmao, WTF ?
Report Post »psst
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:20pmRosie, I thought they should have shot off his triger finger.
Report Post »Or maybe shoot down the barrel of his shotgun and blow it up.
In Pale Rider, saw Clint shoot the gun out of the hands of the perp and when he tried for it again, Clint shot him through the palm of his hand.
I know, it can be done.
Modawg734Blue
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:53pmDear Rosie,
Report Post »If you, or your child were standing in front of the business end of the shotgun, would you want the officer to risk your life, or your childs life to possibly save the poor little CRIMINAL? Do you understand the destruction a shotgun can do? A head shot will reduce the skull to fragments, everything inside to jelly. When did you forget the definitions of criminal and victim? The perpitrator made a choice. The officer had no choice.
QuietRiot
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:36pmcouldnt they have taken out the limbs first or are the police that bad of a shot ?
Report Post »twofoot_trucker
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:45pmGoing for limb shots is great in a Hollywood flick. The real world isn’t Hollywood. If somebody is armed and threatening your life, aim center mass and make the threat go away.
Report Post »jds7171
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:53pmI mean no offense, but you are stupid. Think on what you just said. Not every cop is Dirty harry, or some action hero star. NO cops are. They are just regular people like you and me. Not even people in our military could “just taken out the limbs first.” When will people like you understand you don’t play around when you are in a situation like that. YOu made me think of something beck wrote in his book, Arguring with idiots.” the one about can’t the robber just take a gun away from someone. .
Report Post »gunkgy
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:09pmYou must not be a gun person. Those type of shots are great movie stunts, since in the movies a persom gets shot, gives up, alls well. In real life, you shoot them in an arm or leg, (if you can shoot that well) the bad guy now wounded, aims his gun and shoots you or someone else.
Report Post »John 1776
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:13pmSometimes, when you have a team in and sharp shooters you may be able to do that. But in the real world these things can go down in seconds, and are often handled with sidearms. Try to get fancy, miss, and he gets the opportunity to start killing. In those cases, you are aiming for body center.
Report Post »guyperram
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:15pmHollywood movies are nonsense. The cops are taught to shoot center of mass, unless the perp has body armor on, in which case a head shot is preferable. The problem with that is that it is a much more difficult shot, even for a very experienced veteran.
Report Post »The muslims are doing that to our troops in Afganistan and Iraq. Hard shot, but deadly if made.
Wheelie_Pete
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:44pmYou don’t shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, period. Go take a certified handgun training class you will quickly understand how insanely ludicrous a proposition it would be to request that officers shoot for extremities…lol…
Report Post »WAR PIGS CRAWLING
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:12pm@Quiet….pull your head out of …..the sand. It’s called a deadly force encounter for a reason. Contrary to the wishes of the ACLU, use of force continuum allows for the use of force one level above the transgressor’s.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.-George Orwell
Report Post »338lapua
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:16pmNot allowed, the only threat is a mortal threat, the only reponse is a mortaly wounding placement.
Report Post »Winging them might make some people feel better, but it will end up with more police going home in a bag. Not acceptable. Read up on lethal force, it might make more sense to you.
Race
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:46amA lot of cops can barely hit a stationary target in the torso (center mass). How many times on TV have I seen a cop empty an entire magazine at a bad guy & miss? Too freakin’ many.
Report Post »asabie
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 9:22amPolice Officers are trained to shoot center of mass…..to eliminate the threat by firing until the threat stops. Shooting a limb is not even an option. All that would lead to is collateral damage and lawsuits. When the firearm is authorized…deadly force is the name of the game. If you do not want to be killed by the police, do not act like an idiot.
Report Post »beksma
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 1:26amJust to add to what everyone else has said, lethal force is just that- lethal. When some is ordered by law enforcement to put down a weapon and REFUSES, they have every right to use lethal force. Limbs are hard to hit and do not cause major injuries.
chest shots are the best and will generally drop the gunman immediately (works on bear too depending on the weapon but I don’t recommend it unless it is life threatening- ruins the hide)
Report Post »sbenard
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:11pmMy sentiments go to the officer who had to shoot him! Imagine if they hadn’t shot him, the bloodbath that would have ensued with an arsenal of that size at a religious edifice of worship!
Report Post »CaptGregg
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:09pmI feel sorry for the officer. Not only did he have to work on Christmas, but he was put in the position of having to kill a man on this, of all days. It‘ll be a Christmas he’ll remember for the rest of his life.
Report Post »beksma
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 1:29amOur prayers as well. Surely he will get all the help he needs to deal with this over time and of course, he does have the knowledge that he saved people from potential injury or death.
Report Post »OhMyGosh
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 11:57amI agree Captgregg
My prayers are with the Police Officer and his Family. What a tragedy for the Officer to have this memory on Christmas Day. I do pray he can put this aside and know he did right without doubt so his future Christmas’s are not soiled with unnecessary guilt of this day.
Praise be given to those who uphold the good and fight for whats right in this Country today.
Report Post »jdavidheath
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:07pm“He failed to comply with that so he was shot. Unfortunately, it killed him.” Need more of these statements when some wacko shows up in a public place with a weapon.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:05pmAll of us need to keep our heads low. There are some real crazy people out there and we never know when we may be caught in a dangerous place. Keep your eyes and ears open.
Report Post »GiGi80
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 8:08amIt must be so sad to live in a continual state of paranoia and fear. Lift your eyes and ears away from the rantings of fear-mongers and insurrectionists and from the “if-it-bleeds-it-leads” media. Volunteer at a soup kitchen, children’s hospital, or nursing home and see how many truly good and just people there are in the world. The God-made world is not such a scary place if your open yourself to love instead of hate and fear.
Report Post »Reagan/DeMint.deciple
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 9:19amYou know what I hate most about this site ? Is when someone copy and pastes and then critiques .. Like they are the only one with an opinion and their opinion is the “correct” opinion..
Report Post »GiGi80
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 1:18pmReagan/Demint disciple: If you are responding to me, I hardly need to “cut and paste”. I am fairly literate — in fact I teach English. I can form and articulate my own thoughts! And why would expressing my opinion mean that I think it is the ONLY right one? I thought most Beck followers believe passionately in our Constitutionally protected right to free speech?
Report Post »zoo9guy
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:03pmI will say a prayer for this man’s family, it must come as a terrible shock that he was involved, let alone killed in an altercation with the police on the grounds of a Mormon Temple. I will also say a prayer of thanks that once again the hands of the police were steadied and were able to keep the loss of life to a minimum. Take a break officer and know that you did what had to be done to save the lives of who knows how many. Thank you and we need more brave men like you to face done evil in all it’s forms.
Report Post »Jim
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:00pmAmen, brother!
Report Post »CaptMike
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:38pmDitto!!!
Report Post »missionarydad
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 1:07amSad outcome for a disturbed man, very good outcome that nobody else got hurt and the good guys get to be here to ring in the New Year, Praise be to God.
Report Post »izzyt84
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 4:34amI don‘t believe this idiot had to be ’killed.’ He could have been shot in an area that would have made him drop his weapon. If the police can’t take someone out with a non-lethal shot, maybe they should be doing something else. But of course, all this happend in looney-tunes land, so anything goes. Maybe this guy had dirt on the mormon bishop and they bishop wanted the guy taken out. Keep in mind, the Spirit of the Lord (God) is not going to be found at a mormon temple or their grounds for that matter. Those involved were probably all mormon, so should we have expected anything other than a bizarre ending? Mormonism is a FALSE RELIGION, a waaaaay false religion. http://carm.org/mormonism. I don‘t even know why mormons ’celebrate’ Christmas, when ‘their Jesus’ is NOT the same Jesus of the bible. They‘d be better off celebrating Lucifer’s birthday! After all, he (according to sick, twisted, unbiblical mormon theology) is the ‘brother’ of Jesus.
izzyt84
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 4:37amAre the ‘grounds’ of a mormon temple supposed to be holy or something? http://carm.org/mormonism
BlueStrat
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 5:34am@ IzzyT84
“I don‘t believe this idiot had to be ’killed.’ He could have been shot in an area that would have made him drop his weapon. If the police can’t take someone out with a non-lethal shot, maybe they should be doing something else.”
Sorry, not trying to be confrontational, but you must have no clue what it’s like in an actual up-close & personal firearm confrontation.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit something the size of a man’s leg at 20-30 or more feet with a relatively short-barreled 9mm service auto even under controlled conditions? Don’t believe what you see in the movies. It’s extremely easy for even very capable & experienced shooters to miss even at relatively close ranges, particularly in fast-moving, high-stakes high-pressure tactical situations.
For outgunned (a 12-ga beats a 9mm pistol hands down in both range & accuracy) patrol officers in the heat of an unstable situation with a heavily-armed suspect who is threatening immediate harm to everyone, to attempt such trick shooting would be a foolish risk of innocent lives.
The police and this officer did exactly what they had to do so that the most people went home alive that day, including themselves. A 3-inch magnum 12-ga slug at under 50ft range, even wearing a standard police service vest, will almost certainly break ribs and possibly cause internal organ damage, hemorrhaging, and death. That is, if it doesn’t blow a head or a limb off.
The only time such fancy shooting is used is in extremely rare cases where the suspect & situation allow time to bring in SWAT sniper teams and get them positioned, and the tactical situation is not one of imminent innocent civilian harm.
Funny thing…many criminals apparently don‘t care about dying and deliberately don’t make it easy to halt/apprehend them without lethal force. How rude!
Report Post »Beattendown
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 10:04amIZZY…dude …did you hit your head again?…So tell us wwhy so much hate…It would seem you dont like the Police…You allso hate “Mormons”…How do you feel about “Americans”?…Or would all of this been OK if the nutter had a bomb and was looking toward rapeing 64 children after killing a few infadales
Report Post »usmcflyr
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 2:31pm@ IZZYT84:
If your comments are a reflection of the Christ you worship, then I wouldn’t want anything to do with your version of Jesus either.
Report Post »eteme
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 1:25pm@ Izzy–Police shoot to kill when the weapon is drawn…if they miss to wound someone they could miss and injure an innocent bystander…
Get some education man, why are you asking all these silly questions on here?? Quit filling your head with hate. Every coin has two sides, you should look at the other side of the coin before you make statements like that.
Read a book not a website for once, you have been at that computer for to long and your eyes are bloodshot again.
Report Post »Clive
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 4:01pmizzy is sort of right… well not really, but mormons are retarded, that much is true.
TheBees
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:03pmGood guys-1 bad guys-0 The reason I carry a gun? Because a cops too heavy!
Report Post »Jabber
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 6:36pmIt’s all those damned donuts! :-P
Report Post »Centurion_
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 7:47pmLooks like the good guys all got to go home last night. Good job South Jordon PD.
Report Post »Creestof
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 6:36amExactly…As the news often reports, the police often spend too much time talking/asking and finally act only after an innocent has been harmed. Transfer those men to the AZ border patrol.
Report Post »beksma
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 1:27amAmen! Thank goodness they were able to respond quickly and neutralize the situation without any innocent people being hurt.
Report Post »Cherished Emblems
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 7:45pmVery sad! We are all brothers and sisters. Our prayers are with all involved.
Report Post »Grasshopper42
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 11:26pmWe are not all brothers and sisters. That‘s the Godless ’Fatherhood of God, brotherhood of man’ liberal, progressive philosophy. 20 or so cops with guns pointing at you and telling your to drop your weapon, duh, drop your weapon!
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 10:15amMy brothers and sisters are fellow believers. The rest may be fellow man, but they are not in the family of Christ.
Report Post »BeckIsNuts
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 10:55amDelusional people are a unique group trolltrainer.
Report Post »Its Gonna Getcha
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 7:41pmThat’s right. The Grinch has a way of making all the freaks come out. Stay strong everybody!! Remain vigilent as Hell.
Report Post »joseph Fawcett
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:38pmI agree except stay viligent as Heaven is, not hell.
http://www.josephfawcettart.com western artist
LibertyGoddess
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:39pmSounds to me like the guy wanted to be shot: “Officers found numerous weapons, including guns, swords and ammunition, inside the dead man’s car, Starks said.”
Yes, guns are the only way we are going to protect ourselves from the crazies of the world.
Report Post »DagneyT
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:54pmLIBERTYGODESS has it right. This is a case of “suicide by police”. Talk to any policeman, and he’ll tell you it happens too often. Too bad they didn’t shoot out his knee or shoulder, and make him face his demons.
Report Post »Deuteronomy22
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 8:58pmJesus was born in September.
Report Post »VanGrungy
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 9:14pmDeuteronomy22,
I guess you prefer the back to school sales … lol
Report Post »moonpeace
Posted on December 25, 2010 at 10:19pm@Joseph Fawcett
Report Post »Please Joseph, we all know that “Its Gonna Getcha”
meant exactly what you said and nothing else. And you know that too. Lets not look for petty differences, OK? In this case, “Vigilant as hell” simply means “very vigilant,” right?
thecid100
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:01amYeah, Jesus was born in September. Whatever. You’re so much smarter than everyone else. Got it. Go away.
Report Post »hillbillyinny
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:31amDeut22: The Christ Mass (Christmas) is a celebration of the FACT that The Word came to earth in the form of a human baby, not a specific birthday party on the exact date of his birth (which we have not EXACT idea nor is it important to the message). The Word came that we might “know the Father,” and to provide payment for our sins through a perfect sacrifice of love to the Father. Attend a Christ Mass some year (vigil or day of), and learn what it’s all about, take the gift of love freely offered for all and be saved!
Report Post »ChiefGeorge
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 2:10amI like how they correct others but post spam here. Nice!
Report Post »izzyt84
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 4:39amIt’s gonna getcha? WTF is ‘gonna getcha?’ Is this some stupid mormon code language? I totally don’t get it…then again, what do I care!
trolltrainer
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 10:14amI sure hope the gunman wasn’t Beckisnuts…Haven’t seen him for a while and this story would be sure to get his attention…
Report Post »TRUSTNO MAN
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 10:54amUtah Law Enforcement does NOT take any crap…PERIOD! They will give you fair warning and non-compliance will get you a lower address. Their on-the-spot judgements and convictions are subject to controversy both for and against but one thing is sure….the danger is stopped and is discussed later usually after a funeral. (Note: Sometimes the funeral is that of Law Enforcement more than you may think.)
Report Post »Oh yea! This is the same Temple / Tabernacle / Church that had its Golden Statue of the Mormon Angel Moroni, atop its main steeple, stuck by Lightning and badly burned shortly after installation when the building was erected. It was replaced shortly after. Makes one wonder me thinks!!
Montana Made
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:40pm@ izzyt84
not any “Mormon code language” here- sorry. That’s a moniker- not anything else. I’ve never heard any “code language” from any member of the Church.
Sad he had to do this, no less at a temple. But it does sound like a police driven suicide from the story.
Report Post »NancyBee
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 12:57pmAll I know is the guy had to be up to no good with all those weapons in his car. I don’t have any friends that drive around like that…..my first thought was they didn’t have to kill him..but maybe I am wrong..you don’t know what the cop was seeing in the situation.
Report Post »godlovinmom
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 1:55pmmore and more we are seeing this….what gets into people’s heads that they think they can resolve an issue with a gun…we aren’t in the old west anymore…very sad when people do this…religious or not…our society is teaching us that life is not worth crap anymore…i.e. abortions, end of life counseling…unless as a society we start teaching this…we’ll be nothing but Iran…
Report Post »docvet
Posted on December 26, 2010 at 3:24pmI’m not second-guessing the police, but I might have been tempted to waste a couple of rubber bullets before I went terminal on him.
Report Post »BeckIsNuts
Posted on December 27, 2010 at 10:51amTrollTrainer, I thought the man killed was one of you Beckites. Maybe it was. We‘ll be hearing about him some more I’m sure. Religion and guns: not the best combiination of things is it?