Atheist Victory? Supreme Court Refuses to Hear War Memorial Cross Case
- Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:01pm by
Billy Hallowell
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SAN DIEGO (The Blaze/AP) — The Supreme Court won’t get involved in a fight over whether a 29-foot war memorial cross can remain on public land overlooking the Pacific Ocean in San Diego, with justices refusing Monday to review an appeals court ruling that deemed the Mount Soledad cross an unconstitutional mixing of government and religion.
It was in 2011 that the Blaze first told you about a controversial cross atop the Mt. Soledad War Memorial in San Diego, Calif. As we reported, the religious symbol was deemed unconstitutional by the the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. But, supporters, led by the non-profit, conservative legal firm, Liberty Institute, appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to save what they see as an important memorial that commemorates U.S. soldiers — a fight that was lost today when the court refused to hear the case.
You can read more about the cross in a report The Blaze published back in Jan. 2011. The high court’s decision not to hear the case came despite the fact that the justices plunged into the dispute over the use of religious symbols to honor fallen troops two times recently. The court has recently signaled a greater willingness to allow religious symbols on public land.
(Related: Memorial Day Music Video Asks That Mt. Soledad Veterans’ Memorial Cross Not Be Torn Down)
The current cross sits on a 14-foot base, surrounded by walls that display more than 2,100 plaques commemorating individual veterans and veterans groups.
Last year’s ruling by the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals that deemed the cross unconstitutional capped two decades of legal challenges over the 1950s cross that became a memorial to Korean War veterans.
A number of military memorials on public lands across the country have been challenged in recent years by civil liberty activists and atheists who say they violate the separation between church and state.
The Supreme Court in 2010 refused to order the removal of a congressionally endorsed war memorial cross from its longtime home atop a remote rocky outcropping in California’s Mojave Desert. That cross was later stolen and supporters are working on getting one restored to the spot.
The Supreme Court last year also refused to hear an appeal of a ruling that ordered the removal of 12-foot-high crosses along Utah highways in honor of dead state troopers.
David Loy, of the American Civil Liberties Union in San Diego County, said the Mount Soledad case now goes back to the U.S. District Court in California to decide what measures should be taken to remedy the situation.
“In this case the government has no business playing favorites with religion, thus the Supreme Court decided properly to stay out of it,” he said.
Allyson Ho, lead counsel for the co-defendant, the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association, said her group remained hopeful the cross would still remain in place despite Monday’s defeat.
“While we are disappointed the Court did not accept this case for review at this time, we are hopeful we can find a solution that will allow this veterans memorial to remain where it has stood for over half a century,” she said.
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Comments (119)
ncbob
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:43pmThe government has favored Christianity for most of our history and in fact has an absolute legal and constitutional responsibility to protect the display of this cross. It’s call “the free exercise thereof.” which happens to be Constitutional protection. Congress passed no law here establishing a religion. No one is forced by law to worship the cross under penalty of arrest, therefore, the freedom to display the cross represents the heart and sole of the Constitution! If you can’t comprehend that, you have no business being a Judge!
Report Post »rickc34
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 10:05pmBy making such a big fuss of a symbol the atheist gives more power to that symbol without even understanding what they do. You do not fight imaginary foes unless you are insane. Are the atheist insane ask one. They believe or they would not fight.
Report Post »davecorkery
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 11:37amWe atheists are on your side. If you say the government should protect this symbol from one particular denomination, then you are allowing them to get involved with religion, which could lead the gov. to eventually tell you what symbols are allowable on your own private property. When demographics change and, say, muslims are the majority, watch what symbols they will promote. And you will have no one to blame but yourself., since you mixed church and state. Put it this way: We atheist will allow creationism to be taught in public school science classes when we are allowed to teach evolution in your sunday schools. Get it now?
Report Post »black9897
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 2:24pm@DAVECORKERY
To be fair, comparing teaching creationism in public schools (which I’m not saying I’m for or against) is completely different than teaching evolution in Sunday school. Sunday school is about spiritual matters. Creationism is about science. The only big difference is creationism replaces the big bang with God. In fact, you wouldn’t even have to say anything about God, a lot of it is the same science just viewed differently.
I actually went to a Christian High school and College where we were taught creationism AND evolution and the big bang theory.
Report Post »Grubmeister
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 5:01pm@Black
“Sunday school is about spiritual matters. Creationism is about science. The only big difference is creationism replaces the big bang with God.”
I hate it when I laugh so hard milk comes out my nose. I’m going to have to write that one down.
Report Post »black9897
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 5:41pm@GRUBMEISTER
Ok? You thought it was funny? And?? Clearly you’ve never taken any such classes or studied the other side. That’s exactly the problem. Evolution is held up high as fact and if anyone says different then they are laughed at. Love your tolerance and open-mindedness.
Report Post »venerablebede
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:06pmThis is what the Communists did in Latvia. They destroyed the Crosses. Yet the people came back and planted Crosses, then the Communists used bulldozers to destroy the crosses. The Communist then used armed guards to keep the land clear of Crosses. But the Crosses kept appearing.
All true Americans should plant a Cross in remembrance of those brave Latvians!
See the results of those brave Latvians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Crosses
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:36pm“Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction. The philanthropy of atheism is therefore at first only philosophical, abstract philanthropy, and that of communism is at once real and directly bent on action.”-Karl Marx
Report Post »rayferd13
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:37pmWhat are the atheists so afraid of, if there is no God then the people who worship him are fools. The very mention of God should make them laugh. But, as for me and my God, I will pray for them.
Report Post »ChristianM
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 1:02pmReligion to me is quite comical, but the thing that gets me is that I don’t want something comical to represent soldiers that sacrificed their lives for this country.
Report Post »Ron_WA
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:23pmI actually see this as a pro-Faith victory … as much as I’d like the SCOTUS to rule in favor of keeping the cross it is clearly a Christian symbol (as well as a war memorial) & thus a tacit endorsement not only of religion but of a denomination.
The best answer is to delay a ruling until law can be enacted to let private investors buy the land so it won’t blur the lines btw church & state & the cross may remain as is.. This bought us some time to get this done.
We may be mostly a God fearing nation based on Judeo-Christian ideals but we are also a nation which allows for minority views so there is strong precedent which would allow for adding other religious symbols & markers to the same site (not sure I whan Muslin, Wiccan, Buddhist , Scientologist, or “free-thinker” monuments added to the current site).
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:32pmThe Founding Fathers did not see themselves as Heroes… and placed nothing in the Constitution about Memorials nor Monuments!
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:48pmhttp://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/VisitorInformation/MonumentMemorials/ArgonneCross.aspx
This is not pro-faith… This is an attack on history… It’s marxist even.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:52pm“Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction. The philanthropy of atheism is therefore at first only philosophical, abstract philanthropy, and that of communism is at once real and directly bent on action.”-Karl Marx
“A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could.”-Vladamir Lenin
Report Post »Bub47
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 12:59amI used to live in San Diego and if I remember correctly there are legal reasons why the land cannot be sold to save the Cross. Check and Mate – Athiests
Report Post »Grubmeister
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 5:10pmI’m with you up to a point. I think there should be give sufficient time for members of the community to find funds to move the cross (and any other religious paraphanalia onsite) to another location. The property and the memorial should stay under government ownership. I don’t know the details about who built or paid for the memorial but I suspect transfer of ownership would just be a long road for government sponsorship of a particular religion. The memorial was probably built to honor all who served, not just those from a single religion. To transfer ownership would be to remove a memorial, and the publicly located display of honor, from all other religions (atheist as well).
Report Post »I go with the greater good in this case.
steveh931
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:19pmThe Supreme Court is correct. The 1st Amendment prevents any court from making any decision regarding religion. It’s the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals that was wrong in hearing the case in the first place and should listen to the higher courts decision before rehearing the case.
Report Post »drrgb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:32pmYou have been drinking the cool aid again. The 1st amendment protects fee exercise of religion from government interference. It prohibits the government from forming, i.e. “establishing”, a federal religion and does not in any way ban expression of religion in public spaces. Is your next step to tear down the all the religious images in the Supreme Court or in all of DC? The Supremes showed no courage in passing on this one. By the way, removal of he Solidad Monument would be a government indorsement of atheism which is religion for the self absorbed.
Report Post »Grubmeister
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 5:13pmDRRGB
Report Post »I think there are no plans to replace the cross (and any other religous paraphanalia) with atheist logos, symbols, places of worship or donation trays. In fact, I don’t think anything has been mentioned except removing the cross.
Maybe you have additional information I’m not privy to. If so, please share. We’d all appreciate it.
Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:12pmThe Supreme Court of earth is a traiitor to our heritage. We are a Christian nation from birth.
Report Post »The Supreme Court of heaven has no concerns. God will judge the Supreme Court of earth for their evil, wicked and vile decisions. He will send the atheists to hell along with their leader satan. We have an assured victory in life, death, and life forever. Christiians will win.
Winedude
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:14pm“The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.”
–John Adams
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with
blood for centuries.¬”
–James Madison
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologie¬s.”
- Thomas Jefferson
“The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive¬,
capricious¬, and unjust.”
– Thomas Jefferson
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
Report Post »- James Madison
SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:35pmIti’s really easy to take the founding fathers out of context…
Not so much with your founders;
“Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction. The philanthropy of atheism is therefore at first only philosophical, abstract philanthropy, and that of communism is at once real and directly bent on action.”-Karl Marx
“A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could.”-Vladamir Lenin
Report Post »wvernon1981
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 10:16pm“God will judge the Supreme Court of earth for their evil, wicked and vile decisions. He will send the atheists to hell along with their leader satan. We have an assured victory in life, death, and life forever. Christiians will win.”
That’s absolutely disgusting. You should be ashamed of loving and endorsing the morality of such a god. The atheists want your team banner off of public land and you think they should suffer eternal torment for it. That’s absolutely sick.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 10:27pmI agree with Windude in as much that some people are crazy about wanting to inforce some kind of theocracy on others. It is a bit insane to ‘pass judgements’ on others when even the bible for those who actually read it, concempts those who judge others.
But I disagree with him on the nature of removing historical artifacts… I research commemoration methods, and want these things around for my continued research…
I also support protection of ‘free expression’ as defined in the constituion.
Thus I stand up for protection of hindu shrines, ‘pagan’ symbols, stone henges, islamic monument,s or whatever else are created through free ‘public expression’. I treat them all equally…. I bealive each should be treated equally… This doesn‘t involve ’destroying’ or trying to rewrite history…
Report Post »Fatheroftwo
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:46pmLets see if I can explain this so that you all can understand! The cross in not just a Christian symbol, it was around long before Jesus was ever killed on it, used by the Romans as a very cruel form of torture! The cross by itself is used as a symbol in this country for honoring the dead or marking the place of the dead. To make the cross a purely Christian symbol it must have an image of Jesus on it which then makes it a Crucifix!
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:14pmThe cross is much older than the romans. Egyptians used and also appears in celtic designs as well…
If anything constantine adapted in a pagan symbol into the church.
Also romans hung people on poles with their arms nailed above their heads, as much as they hung on ‘cross-shaped’ structures. Maybe even moreso….
Report Post »Fatheroftwo
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:13pmSacredhonor1776
Report Post »You are exactly right, and yet, the Progressives have attempted, with a great deal of success, to make the cross a purely Christian symbol when it is clearly not, at least for those of us that know a little history!!!
SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:59pmYep, I wonder when they will equally go after “obelisks” (Washingont Monument) or pagan stone henges? Or maybe the Hindu shrine in the Manzanar? Or the early Islamic Mosque that’s in the national register of historic places and now on public land or the many similar churches around the nation?
http://blog.stonehenge-stone-circle.co.uk/2011/11/29/pagan-stone-circle-built-at-us-air-force-training-academy/
These are all religious structures, that the goverment is ‘endorsing’ by their logic…
Report Post »Winedude
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:17pmReally? Are you telling me that when I see a woman walking down the street wearing a cross around her neck that it isn’t a religious symbol? Maybe I’m missing something here but I only have about 60 years experience…
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:42pmIt is and isn’t a religious symbol. Just as much as the obelisk is and isn’t a religious symbol.
Depends on the history and the person using it.
But what do you think of the Air Force establishing pagan stonehenges on air force base? Do you think that is ‘support’ of a religion?
Why are you against historical sites that can be used as a ‘teachable moment’? Why destroy history, why not embrance it and point out why you disagree with it. Show it as an example why you disagree with it.
Hardly comparible (as I don’t see a cross as an atrocity), but we don’t taken down the Japanese Internment camps, simply because they represent an atrocity in american history.
In europe we don’t take down aushwitz either. It is a protected site of ‘world heritage’.
There are number of crosses across the unite states that are protected because of their historical merit. As an archaelogist I would defend memorials, and educate about their purpose good or bad, not try to erase history…
That’s only for the revisionists… who want to change ‘history’ for their own gains…
Report Post »Fatheroftwo
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:44pmWinedude
Report Post »Yes it is a religious symbol! That doesn’t mean that she is a Christian, nor that she believes in God, although the chances are good that she is and does. The argument is; does the cross represent one religion or many?? I say, in the beginning of this country the cross was used a symbol to represent the honored dead NO matter what religion!! The Progressives have worked very hard to change the history of this country and this is just one of many examples!!
SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:59pmI see Goth and Vamp subcultures wear crosses, doesn’t mean they are “Christians”.
Crosses are also becoming a ‘gang’ symbol in some districts as well. Doesn’t mean they are christians.
Some satanists use crosses for whatever reasons… Probably not a ‘christian’…
Celts wear crosses, doesn‘t mean they are ’christians’.
Some of our US medals are crosses, Navy Cross or Distinquished Service Cross as examples, but that doesn‘t mean they are ’Christians’.
Red and Blue Crosses. Ya I know the Afghanis have accused the Red Cross of being a ‘christian symbol’… But you aren’t that crazy are you?
Report Post »Fatheroftwo
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 10:38pmSacredhonor1776
Report Post »Question! Is there a different terminology for a cross that has equal lengths for both vertical and horizontal lines and a cross who’s vertical line is longer and the horizontal line crosses it near the top??
Just wondering!!!
SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 11:30pmSure, there are many terms for crosses. The Red Cross is in the form of the Greek Cross…
The other cross is found both in Celtic Cross and the Latin cross “crux ordinara”.
There are other variations beyond that of course.
Report Post »Daveed
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:35pmI guess I would argue that the court that heard the case and ruled in favor of the extremely few who are offended because other people have faith and they do not, decision is not binding. The Cross has been there for years and is an established landmark. The Supreme Court refused to hear the case and that can not be at the fault of the established landmark and the people who appreciate it for religious purposes, for historical purposes, or they just the the angular design the cross makes. I say the Cross stays as it‘s meaning transcends atheist’s ability to comprehend and therefore it can not be offensive to them. I say the offense is with the atheists who do not like something becaues they can not understand. Why should America live under that dictate? It is unconstitutional to not have God/Christ in our Government. If They were, we would not be where we are today. A Progressive Orwellian nightmare of grand porportions. Why does Barrack think we want to know about how he and wife met when he can not provide a true birth certficate to his Employer or school records. So of course we have no option to belief that everything about him is fake under the hollywood personna that was created for him.
Report Post »alinmatt
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:39pm@daveed, You said, “It is unconstitutional to not have God/Christ in our Government.” That is false. Our constitution does not mention the word “God” or “Christ” or anything similar anywhere in it. The men who wrote it were Christian. Did they just forget to mention God? Not likely. In fact, they even wrote in the constitution that there would be no religious test for political candidacy. Even in the federalist papers, God or Christ is not mentioned. Religion is only mentioned 10 times out of 85 essays(not ten essays, but literally ten times) and none of the references are in favor of mingling religion or Christianity with the fed gov. Our founders were aware of the danger of the mingling of state and church, that’s all Europe had and many of the colonies practiced it after coming to America. It always leads to religious persecution. Our constitution, by definition, is secular in order to protect religious freedom. Separation of church and state protects your right to religious freedom, but that means you have to respect other‘s rights to it as well. Having Christian people is what makes this country a Christian nation, not it’s government.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:20pmCould America become an officially “secular” nation?
Report Post »spunkymonkey
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:25pmI wish people would realize this is not an attack on personal exercise. This memorial was on public property.
Report Post »I would have a different opinion if it was private property.
KenInIL
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:37pmWe should have a “secular” armed forces. — Only admit / draft those who do not believe in God.
Report Post »— save money on chaplins
— remove arguments about crosses / star of David / etc on the sites of the fallen.
— remove atheists /agnostics from the general population
SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:57pmI wonder if anyone has figured out that the Washington monument is an offensive religious symbol? It‘s a ’pagan’ obelisk and a phallic symbol to boot! It also has bible verses carved into the top for good measure…
What about the Argonne Cross or the Canadian Cross of Sacrifice, both in the Arlington National Cemetery?
What do the athiests think of the pagan stone henge on Air Force Academy in colorado? Is that the government establishign a religion?
Do historical artifacts mean anything to athiests?
Also cross as mentioned predates Christians. Actually its been a pagan symbol long before Christians. It found its use by the Egyptians, and several other cultures as well before the romans. The celts also had a cross as a symbol.
Also Christ could have been hung on a ‘tree’ that is to say a single wooden post with his arms held up and nailed over his head. Which was also a very common way that Romans hung convicts.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:08pm“We should have a “secular” armed forces. — Only admit / draft those who do not believe in God.
— save money on chaplins
— remove arguments about crosses / star of David / etc on the sites of the fallen.
— remove atheists /agnostics from the general population”
You have heard of Obama’s plan to have his own civilian military? Who‘s to say they won’t be all athiests?
Report Post »marcus_arealius
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:10pmShould “In God We Trust” on our currency be changed to “In Nothing We Trust” or “We Dont Trust Nuthin” for the less educated morons? How about “In Barry We Trust” ?
So if I saw an atheist lying on the sidewalk having a heart attack, I‘d just keep walking and say ’Ain’t nothing for you to be afraid of in death, there ain’t nothing out there anyway. Have a nice heart attack.’
Report Post »AndYetItMoves
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:13pmAnd if it were a Christian, you’d fall to your knees and try to pray the heart attack away. Explain to me how this is any different.
Report Post »ChristianM
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:36pm“In God We Trust” being completely removed and replaced by nothing would perfectly suffice.
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:37pmDoubt that Marcus would let the person die either way. There are places called hospitals that Christians do facilitate. The ones who don’t use hospitals or modern medicine are a fringe minority of Christianity.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:50pm“In God We Trust” wasn’t put on our dollars until the 50s.
“Under God” wasn’t put into the pledge until the 50s.
It is Christianity trying to change all of this stuff and making it seem like it was “always this way.”
The pledge was perfectly fine without “Under God” but it wasn’t good enough for Christians. For how much they say they want the government out of their faith, they do really seem to want endorsements of their faith from government.
Report Post »holy ghostbuster
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:30pmNo, let’s go back to the original motto of E Pluribus Unum.
Report Post »holy ghostbuster
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:35pmI recently visited Mt. Soledad and was surprised to see memorials to Jewish servicemen there. I wonder how they would have felt knowing that they were memorialized under the symbol, not of their Jewish faith, but that of the Christian faith? The memorial I believe is fine, but to place one faith‘s symbol over another’s on public land is clearly favoring one religion over another.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:45pmYou haven’t been to arlington have you?
Ever heard of the Canadian Cross of Sacrifice, or the Argonne Cross? They are very similar WW1 memorials on government land!
Did you know under them are rows upon rows of soldiers buried under any number of symbols including Jewish and Christians etc. The ACLU has stated they won‘t ever attack those as they are ’memorial to all’ and have symbols to all religions.
Yet, Soledad cross is the same way! Yet ACLU is fighting to get rid of it…
Seems rather hypocriticalt to me!
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:48pmhttp://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/VisitorInformation/MonumentMemorials/ArgonneCross.aspx
Report Post »ChristianM
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 1:11pmThe difference between this memorial and Arlington is that in Arlington, each soldiers religious beliefs are represented on their individual tombstone.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:08pmSome people worship trees.
Tear down all the trees!!
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:52pmPamela Geller – American Thinker
“The American President told me in confidence that he is a Muslim”… That was the claim of Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit, as reported in the May 2010 issue of Israel Today. According to journalist Avi Lipkin, Gheit appeared on Nile TV’s “Round Table Show” in January, on which he said that “he had had a one-on-one meeting with Obama who swore to him that he was a Moslem, the son of a Moslem father and step-son of Moslem step-father, that his half-brothers in Kenya were Moslems, and that he was loyal to the Moslem agenda.”
Obama allegedly said this in the context of reassuring Gheit that he would soon deal with Israel:
He asked that the Moslem world show patience. Obama promised that once he overcame some domestic American problems (Healthcare) [sic], that he would show the Moslem world what he would do with Israel.”
Could this be true? Even if Gheit‘s claim isn’t true, or was misreported, every country in the free world must be cognizant of the catastrophic sea change that has taken place in the leadership of the free world — as witnessed by events over the past year. Barack Obama took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, and yet whether he is a Muslim or not, he has undeniably gone around the world promoting Islam and Sharia (Islamic law).
And now, if what Gheit says is true, we know why.
The alleged exchange between Obama and Gheit would almost certainly have happened in early January
Report Post »AndYetItMoves
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:18pmAny remotely cranial person has figured out by now that Obama is an atheist (ever bother reading his book?). I know this will be no consolation to the average knuckle-dragging American Christian, but take comfort in knowing Obama is a proponent of rationality as opposed to another religious delusion.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:17pmCommunism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction. The philanthropy of atheism is therefore at first only philosophical, abstract philanthropy, and that of communism is at once real and directly bent on action.-Karl Marx
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:19pm“Obama is a proponent of rationality”
Report Post »Not really, but whatever floats your boat.
SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:32pm“A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could.”-Vladamir Lenin
Report Post »themachinist239
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 2:22pmSACREDHONOR1776, posting those same two quotes over and over again do not increase their relevance. Why conservatives desperately attempt to link atheism to communism is just as confusing to me as to why any liberal would link capitalism with Christianity. They are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with each other. It is an inherent trait of a simpleton (don’t take it personally) to try to mash things together that are too intellectually taxing to understand individually, especially when talking about religious and political ideologies. These are complicated subjects which require much willingness to humble yourself in order to truly understand them. I have looked through the eyes of a communist and have truly understood why they believe these things; In doing so I have concluded I do not agree with it on a fundamental level. It shows you have no intellectual honesty and enjoy summarily writing off those with whom share a different view.
I am a patriotic, atheist, capitalist American and am tired of war-path Christian-conservatives (as if they go hand in hand). Most atheists are supporters of freedom, hence why they object to religious dominion over every aspect of their life. I can‘t speak for Marx because I didn’t know the man nor am I a fan, but atheism to me goes hand in hand with principles of freedom, of not being controlled. These beliefs are directly in opposition to communist tenants. Many American atheists would agree with this premise.
Report Post »bankerpapaw
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:51pmJust one more nail in America’s coffin.
Report Post »AndYetItMoves
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:14pmYou mean Christianity’s coffin, it amazes me how often blazers need to be reminded that Christianity and America are not the same thing.
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:48pmLeave them up and kick azz when they come to take them down.
Report Post »normalmom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:46pmWhy are the athiests being allowed to enforce their beliefs on all of us. They can say it isn’t a religion all they want, but if you look up the definition of religion it fits the category.
Report Post »AndYetItMoves
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:12pmThat should tell you something about religion.
Report Post »VoteBushIn12
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:16pmIt’s actually the absence of religion.
It’s better to recognize no religion than to recognize the wrong religion – which is the case when a memorial tries to presume all the people it is remembering were all under one faith. As a Jew, I would sooner prefer to be buried in a secular cemetery that favored no religious symbols over one that flew a Cross high to heaven. Similarly, you Christians would likely rather be buried on secular ground than under an Islamic Star.
You need to be a little less emotional and a little more empathetic.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:27pmActually surprisingly at one time athiesm meant something entirely different. It used to be something akin ‘against the dominate gods. In greek period for example Christians who denied the Greek/ROman gods were ‘athiests’, and the Christians considered the Hellenists as being ‘athiests’ as they denied the one god!
SO in effect it originally meant something along the lines of deniying the current concept of the ‘divine’. It’s taken on a very different term now adays.
But ironically, if athiesm became the dominate philosophy. There was some kind of minority that disagreed with that interpretation. By old definition, they would then be the ‘athiests’ as they disagreed with the prominent belief system.
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:42pmCalifornia should not be defended by our U.S. Troops. If they will not stand for the freedoms, then they should not be defended.
Report Post »Winedude
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:21pmNo, California should quit sending money to Washington so they can distribute to the idiot crackers in the red states. Afraid of change; afraid of progress??? Stay the hell OUT of California…we don’t want you anyway.
Report Post »themachinist239
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 3:02pmBlackyb, you are an anti-American product of Glenn Beckian propaganda. You are a testament to how misinformation can skew one’s view so far right, it falls off the edge. Not defending the country in instance of domestic invasion makes you a coward, a traitor, and so blindly partisan it astounds me. People like you make me sick because I’m an American who would defend the USA no matter where the threat was present, and you know what? I’m an atheist. I’m sick of hearing you faux-patriots picking and choosing which parts of America you enjoy demonizing the most. Why don’t you do yourself a favor and leave this country that you revel in hating? California, New York, Florida, Massachusetts, wherever; It’s all America. Love it or leave it but don’t flirt with treason because you think it will earn you a couple of hardcore-conservative brownie points.
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:40pmIf they will not hear the case. Put them back up.
Report Post »ltdan
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:29pmWe tolerate their non-belief why can’t they (Athiests) tolerate our beliefs?
Report Post »Just remember,FORCED tolerance is intolerance.
The_Jerk
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:35pmIt’s Talmudic. People focus way too much time on the Qur’an and not enough time on the Talmud.
Report Post »Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:28pmThe cross is under attack. The cross represents the preaching of the gospel. The gospel is foolishness to them that parish. The cross has many enemies. Christians are soldiers of the cross.
Report Post »Christians are to lift high the cross which represents our Kingdom – The eternal Kingdom of God to come. The satanic world will be destroyed with His very breath when He comes with the sword.
The_Jerk
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:33pmWho’s more hostile to Christianity than Hollywood? No one!
Who is Hollywood? In their own words, not mine: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column
Fact, not fancy. Know thy enemies.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:44pmThe cross: your symbol of faith is a dastardly death device that killed many people. congratulations. Had Jesus been bled out with a blade would you be wearing knifes around your necks? Not sure it was in Jesus’s preference people use a crucifix as a faith symbol… This was Constantine’s bag. His crazy brain started seeing crosses everywhere… A pretty rudimentary configuration to find in reality but this dude of course thought it was a divine sign.. You’d think god would provide more complicated repeating configurations as signs..
Report Post »by faith
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:30pmThe cross is not the death device that killed. Men who used the cross killed. Just like guns don’t kill people, people do. The cross, with or without the body of Christ, has been a visual reminder of what Jesus did for mankind. Your point of wearing knifes is rather childish. It is not the instrument of death that are of importance, it is the selfless act of Jesus that happened on the cross that matters.
The Cross – The “pre-eminent symbol of the Christian faith” is almost nowhere to be found in early Christian art. Perhaps one reason the first Christians chose not to use it is that they did not need to: Roman crucifixions were a constant reminder of the price of redemption.
The fish is the symbol most commonly associated with the ancient Church. It is everywhere in the archaeological record—scratched onto walls as graffiti, traced onto lamps, and detailed in beautiful mosaics and frescoes. The Church Fathers left an impressive paper trail explicating the fish and its many layers of meaning, for the symbol was as complex as it was common. The only symbol comparable, for modern believers, is the cross.
“Constantine’s bag. His crazy brain started seeing crosses everywhere” Another juvenile argument, why don’t you say Constantine wore shoes, so that is why we wear shoes?
“pretty rudimentary configuration” Yes it is, but this simple shape was not adopted by God, it was adopted by the simple followers of Jesus.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:10pmActually romans often hung convicts on poles with their arms hung and nailed over their heads. It was pretty terrible way to die… BUt it wasn‘t a ’cross’ shape. Some may have been crosses..
The cross itself can be traced back pagan symbol, as far back as early Egypt maybe earlier. Had nothing to do with the romans.
Report Post »Prosecute_Constitutional_Treason_In_Washington
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:24pmWhy has the gov. failed to protect our Christian heritage? We were a Christian nation at formation and the founders intended us to honor and celebrate our Christian heritage. Why are their no laws to protect our heritage?
“Religion is of general and public concern and on its proper support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION IS THE EASTABLISHED RELIGION, and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.” Samuel Chase,- signor of Declaration of Independence & Supreme Court Justice
“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington
Religion I have disposed of all my property to my family. There is one thing more I wish I could give to them, and that is the Christian religion. If they had that and I had not given them one cent, they would be rich. If they have not that, and I had given them the world, they would be poor. Patrick Henry
We cannot read the history of our rise and development as a nation, without reckoning with the place the Bible has occupied in shaping the advances of the Republic. Where we have been the truest and most consistent in obeying its precepts, we have attained the greatest measure of contentment and prosperity.” Franklin Roosevelt “
Report Post »possom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:23pmI’m an atheist and I hope these control freak atheists lose their a$$’es on this, you don‘t screw with memorial’s or the religion of others if you chose not to believe then don’t believe. You have no right trying to impose your will on others no matter how it affect‘s your delicate control freak sensibility’s.
Report Post »In AMERICA we believe in freedom of religion and expression And I’m an AMERICAN above all else!
VoteBushIn12
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:32pmChristians aren’t the only demographic that memorial is representing. I am sure it is a memorial for Jews, Muslims, and Atheists alike.
Hence, it is DISRESPECTFUL to remember them all as being Christian. Remember what you were taught as a child? “If you can‘t say something nice it’s better to say nothing at all.” Well it’s better to affiliate it with no religion than with the wrong religion.
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:44pmYou could be saved if you will ask Christ into your heart. You will then see the world differrently and your witness for freedom will be even more clear. Christ frees, evil enslaves.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:37pmHowever, as a historical artifact it needs to be protected. In the same way that one of the earliest Mosques is on the National Register of Historic Places, and that we have old churches or other shrines on national park or national memorial or other public land (to remember the history). Same way that a hindu shrine in a Japanese Interment camp would be protected, although the land itself is government property. See Manzanar the shrine at the Manzanar memorial.
In future monuments can be made that are more non-denominational. But older monuments have historical merit.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:39pmAlso historicaly the cross predates Christianity and can be braced back earlier even to Egyptians or celts… Its pretty much no different than using an obelisk in a shrine which also has ‘pagan’ religious roots…
Report Post »HorseCrazy
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:20pmThe supremes namely roberts should be ashamed of himself. turning to side with obama on immigration and not sticking up for our rights to religious freedom which also includes the government staying out of our religious affairs. athiests cost the court system millions of dollars each year with their useless lawsuits. at what point will sanity be restored to this nation? Today I have lost faith it will ever be restored here. Thursday I fear will not be good news and the tyranny will win.
Report Post »possom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:27pmNot all atheists are like these, when the time come‘s to fight the muslims my atheist gun’s will be on the church’s side!
Report Post »VoteBushIn12
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:34pm@Possum
I just replied to your previous comment thinking you were a rational human being. After reading this I now understand you are just another blithering idiot.
Kindly disregard my remark on your last post – I forgot what company I was in.
Report Post »momrules
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:18pmSeems like the godless are winning a lot of the battles on good old planet earth recently.
God’s patience is infinately longer than mine is but even He will reach the end of His patience eventually. I’m thinking soon.
Report Post »The_Jerk
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:14pmThere are 3 Jews sitting on the Supreme Court. Jews are 1.7% of the population. No group is more hostile to Christianity.
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:19pmHow ridiculously anti-Semitic. But then again with your chosen moniker perhaps you’re just being what you claim to be.
Report Post »The_Jerk
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:30pm“The ongoing contention started when Steven Engel, a Jewish New Yorker, came together with other parents in 1958 to sue New York State over state-endorsed prayer that was being recited in schools.”
… taken from earlier story.
Antisemitism is always the Jewish cry as they practice their anti-Christianism.
Report Post »deadend
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:34pmIslam is you fool.
Report Post »The_Jerk
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:43pmDeadend, the facts tell a different story.
Report Post »NJBarFly
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:00pmJerk – Say hi to the rest of the Klan members for me.
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:07pmI don’t understand atheists sometimes. With all of their presumed rationalism, they let a war memorial bother them. Let it be and move on. It‘s not telling you to convert to Christianity nor is that it’s intentions. It’s there to commemorate the lives of the fallen who were mostly Christian.
Report Post »marcus_arealius
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:15pmThere are people who make it their life’s work to crap on and ruin everything they can. They’re actually proof that evil is alive and busy.
Report Post »ChristianM
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:52pmKey word you said was “mostly”. How would you feel if a family member of you (who was christian) was buried in a cemetery and it had a large crescent and star statue?
Report Post »drrgb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 9:46pmWe may all find out how it feels to have a large crescent over our graves if secularists and liberals continue to push our religious heritage and values out of the American culture.
Report Post »ChristianM
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 12:59pmHow does that make any sense?
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