Atheistic FFRF Pledges Legal Battle as NY Public School Refuses to Remove ‘God’ & ‘Lord’ Songs
- Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:01am by
Billy Hallowell
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Shenendehowa Central Schools, a public education system in Clifton Park, New York, is ignoring demands from the atheistic Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) that one of its elementary schools remove songs from its music curriculum that mention “god” or “lord.” But, as non-believers are making the push, the district’s educators are defending the tunes and refusing to back down.
As is typically the case, the FFRF sent letters to the district threatening a lawsuit if, indeed, the songs are not taken out of the Okte Elementary School’s curriculum. So, what are these supposedly-religious songs, you ask? One is “Thank You for the World so Sweet,” which has a line that reads, “Thank you God for everything.”
Then, there’s “Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep,” which also has a God line: “I pray the Lord my soul to keep.“ And who could forget ”Michael Row Your Boat Ashore“ and ”He’s Got the Whole World in His Hands”?
The atheist group, inflamed over the presence of these songs in public school classrooms, wrote to Shenendehowa Superintendent Oliver Robinson back in June, claiming that a parent had complained. According to FOX News, the two sides have gone back-and-forth, but the FFRF has apparently not yet received the answer it is looking for. On August 6, a third letter threatening to take the issue to the courts was sent to the district.
FFRF co-presidents Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker (Photo Credit: Benny Johnson/Billy Hallowell)
“This is not minor,” FFRF co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor told FOX. “It’s predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn’t attend public school.”
But the district is doubling down and touting the educational value of the songs at hand.
“None of the songs was taught, or used, as prayer. Thus, the case you cite dealing with school prayer is an inapposite…[the songs] were used appropriately to teach musical concepts,” Kathryn McCary, an attorney for the school district, responded in a letter to the organization.
McCary went on to say that the district “is satisfied with the inclusion and use” of the songs that the atheist group highlighted in its initial letter of complaint. Additionally, she encouraged the complaining parent to discuss concerns over the music directly with the child’s teacher.
Photo Credit: AP
But Gaylor dismisses these ideals, saying that the songs don’t have to be used as prayer in order to constitute as a violation of church and state. Additionally, she said that the FFRF has already dealt with a similar situation involving prayer songs. She also maintains that, if the district doesn‘t bow to the group’s demands, the parent at the center of the complaint is willing to head to the courts.
“Words do not lose their meaning just because they are set to music,” wrote FFRF senior staff attorney Rebecca Markert in the August 6 letter.
If the district continues to avoid Gaylor and the FFRF’s demands, it looks like the issue could be decided by a judge and/or jury.
(H/T: FOX News)
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Comments (179)
Reesie
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:29amGo read, “The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived” by Dr. Peter Hammond of Frontline Fellowship in South Africa.
There is no doubt that Jesus Christ is the greatest man who has ever lived in all of history.He changed the world forever. When He was born, He transformed the very way we measure time. He turned aside the river of the ages out of its course and lifted the centuries off their hinges. His birthday, His Incarnation, touched and transformed time. Now the whole world counts time as Before Christ (BC) and AD (Anno Domoni – in the year of our Lord). Jesus Christ is the central figure of history. More books have been written about Jesus Christ than any other person in history.
The world before Christ was a world without hospitals, a world without charity, a world without respect for the sanctity of life. Hospitals were an innovation of Christianity. Hence the healing symbol of a cross represents hospitals. The nursing profession was founded by Christians such as Florence Nightingale out of devotion for Christ. One of history’s greatest humanitarian movements, the International Red Cross, was founded by Christians in response to the Scriptural injunctions to care for the sick and the suffering. Christians such as Dr. Louis Pasteur have fuelled some of the greatest practical advances in medicine. Pasteur has probably saved more lives than any other individual in history through his inventions.
The whole concept of charity was a Christian innovation. Benevolence to stran
Report Post »Quester55
Posted on August 18, 2012 at 6:33pmIf it weren’t for people like yourself, i think our Nation would have passed away long ago. Your running a good race, Don’t give up now. On the other hand, my fingers are fighting each other to see who wins first. The Arthritis in my hands or the will to keep on typing? They won. Keep up the good work and fight these Hypocrites, push them back to the Gates of HELL from where they came.!!
Report Post »davecorkery
Posted on August 20, 2012 at 9:23amJesus was an old school Torah following jew who called himself a rabbi and pushed standard jewish endtimes theology. It was his followers who kept exaggerating his small accomplishments, who called him divine (he did not call himself divine), etc. Sure, people believed the legends, and did good things. They also did some horrific things, like killing non believers, and brought us the dark ages, where learning was frowned upon. All in all, it’s 50/50.
Report Post »triplejaymom
Posted on August 20, 2012 at 12:26pmGREAT post!!
Report Post »JohnLarson
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:28amThere’s a reason why atheists win almost all these cases… because legal precedent and the Constitution is on their side.
Cons, just follow the law and the Constitution and there won’t be a problem. We don’t do religious indoctrination in our public schools here. Just think if a public school was singing about Allah, how mad you’d all be.
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:44amMy kids went to public school in OH (before we moved). The Christmas program (yes, they called it Christmas) had numerous Christmas carols but they also sang “spin the dradle” and some Kwanza song. I’m not worried about my kids becoming Jews (like Rod Carew…not biologically). Nor do I expect them to start observing Kwanza. Furthermore, the Jewish kids were singing Christmas songs.
Maybe, just maybe, this whole mess has far less to do with political and legal matters and is based on the fact that people can’t act like sane, reasonable adults any longer.
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:51amThe Constitution is on our side. You need to move to some country who are atheists. We do not want you here. Stand New York. These minority protestors do not run this country. They need a good swift kick in the ((whatever. (I am trying to be nice(er.))) Tell them to plug up their ears. They are nothing but trouble makers who want your children to go to hell with them.
Report Post »Jaycen
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:56pmFunny, John. I thought the reason they “won” was because our country is full of gutless wuss-bags in leadership positions. I think that’s changing, though, and I‘d expect you’ll find yourself disappointed in the long run.
Oh, and this has nothing to do with the Constitution. You might try reading it. The 1st amendment protects us from the Government forcing a religion upon us, it does not protect the government from peoples’ religions.
In fact, if you refuse to allow me to sing my religious song in school, you are the one violating my 1st amendment rights. The Constitution, thank God, protects me from people like you.
Bless you.
Report Post »coalfired
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 2:08pmThe problem with your take on this, is that we were concieved as a Christian nation by mostly devout Christian individuals and as a Christian nation, we have grown strong and prospered as no other nation in history on earth. Credit the very God we are now trying to replace with, Not sure what? (Man)?
Report Post »The 1st amendment also says freedom “of” religion, not freedom “from” religion. Its rather clear to anyone without an agenda!
Locked
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 2:13pm“In fact, if you refuse to allow me to sing my religious song in school, you are the one violating my 1st amendment rights. The Constitution, thank God, protects me from people like you.”
I’m a Christian, but you are quite incorrect (or at least misleading). Sure, you (as a student) can sing a religious song in a public school. You’ll probably be written up for making a scene, but you can. A teacher, school official, public official, or random Joe from the street, cannot go into a public school and sing religious hymns and songs, however.
I recommend studying how constitutional law and the SCotUS work in the US. It may prove most enlightening!
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 4:27pm@ LOCKED…I’m curious what your stance is on separation of church and state, even though it does not occur anywhere in our constitution? This link summarizes my view….
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html
Given your view of the aformentioned inquiry how do you reconcile the overt inclusion of Judeo-Christian precepts by our Founders in matters of law, jurisprudence, congress, politics etc. if they truly meant what you assert in your post. I would assert that our founders viewed America as a country founded on Judeo-Christian principles mostly and that they were desperate to prevent the state from telling them (endorsing) how to worship. I put forth it was not meant as a wall to keep the religious out of the public square like it has been portrayed in recent times to aid the irreligious worldview. I would use as my source of evidence nearly all of early American politics and history and jurisprudence. Thank you….
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 4:47pm@Sleazy
“I’m curious what your stance is on separation of church and state, even though it does not occur anywhere in our constitution?”
The separation of church and state is a constitutional interpretation of the Establishment Clause. It will remain that way until either a constitutional amendment is passed specifically allowing for the endorsement of religion by the government, or a Supreme Court rules arbitrates a different definition.
I’m surprised, Sleazy. I didn‘t take you as one of the folks who doesn’t believe in the SCotUS’s rulings.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 5:41pm@ LOCKED…..I tend to fall more in the line of strict constructionists. I believe that judicial interpretation has twisted much of the original intent of the founders so that we have abortion under the right to privacy and the consideration of homosexual marriage. I also believe that the “establishment clause” has been manipulated and used as a weapon of the irreligious in a manner that is obvious to any elementary student of early American history was never the intent of the founders in any aspect to the point of not being able to sing a school song. One has to ask did the founding Fathers intend to remove religion from all aspects of public service/square? I think the weight of history makes the answer obvious. Now if people think that needs to change then there is a constitutional process in place that can allow that to occur, however, I am very much against judges rendering an opinion that often falls in line with their personal political views. That my friend is a dangerous trend as our country is discoverin. I believe that was the fork in the road that was taken a long time ago so in that regard, yes I struggle with SCOTUS and its “legislative” powers when interpretation is the rule of law rather than upholding the obvious intent of the constitution…Thank you…
Report Post »DLV
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 6:17pmsleazy- great posts and agree with you 100 percent of what you said. Well done.
Just a quick question though, no offense intended, why did you stop your debate with moderation is best most recently? I think it was on getting to heaven and Mod asked why God would create people only to have many of them go to hell? etc etc. I was enjoying reading your insightful arguments and then they stopped and some named Happy… took over. Just wondering why?
Report Post »StonyBurk
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 6:46pmThe reason they win so many of these cases is the Law written by ,then,Senator LBJ grants them money just for filing what they call a civil rights case.IF their attorneys can BULLY the small towns into quitting they win and some ******** Judge will agree that the small town needs to pay legal fees. Coupled with this is the deliberate misrepresentation of the First Amendment that has been allowed since about1947 Everson v. Board of Education when a Ku Klux Klansman appointed by a “progressive” to change the Constitution by changing its interpretation perpetrated Fraud. Then came the metaphysical refinements that were constructed to defend the fraud and beguile the ignorant people. Like that so called “endorsement test– or the Lemon test before it Now Judges who swear or affirm intent to defend the Constitution end up defending these damn “tests” and the Constitution is neglected. someday some smart cookie will start going after these domestic enemy using the same
Report Post »corrupt laws that now enrich the enemy-and the good people will stand and shout Halleluyah
SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 8:36pm@ DLV…..well it was quite unintentional I assure you. I have been very busy with patients/surgery and kids getting back to school and soccer/football practices and so apparently I never got back to that thread. I have discussed with MOD quite a bit and I know HAPPY is well skilled as well so I may have just missed it. I would love to take that back up with MOD sometime because I have some answers to that question that I would like to share with him. I thank you for yoour encouragement at different times. My motto is there is not a single question we as Christians should shrink from. We may not have all the answers (who does), but if we possess the truth of God’s creation then we should always be ready to give a humble and sincere defense of the faith. God bless and have a great weekend! Thank you…BTW let me know if I miss another thread (hold me acountable lol) Take care my friend….
Report Post »DLV
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 9:39pmSleazy- Yeah no problem, generally when there is a christian or atheist article on the blaze I take a look and usually you beat me to the punch and have already started with Mod, Phillyatheist, Devon, Joe, foxholeatheist, the main atheists of this site. I still don‘t understand why they’re here first of all, but…. whatever. Anyway, I tried to find it but to no avail, the faith articles go way back and there are dozens upon dozens of articles. It would have taken a while. I found one article but you responded last to it from Mod and it wasnt happy with you it was Kstret.
married-megachurch-pastor-fired-after-admitting-to-sex-with-16-year-old-church-member
In any case, I’ll keep my eye out for new articles. The fact that new faith articles come up daily and atheists are always trying to prosecute some song, sign or the ten commandments (lol) a new debate with MOD is inevitable and I suppose it will resume then and I’ll be interested to see how it unfolds, they’re fun to participate in. Even if I don’t respond, you can bet I’m reading most of these. As of now, I’ve been pre-occupied with responding to ABSOLUTELY fanatical Ron Paul supporters like Brother Winston. In any case, I’ll be on the ball with this and next time when all the atheists and christians come to a new debate, I’ll be here. God Bless and thanks…
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 9:51pm@COALFIRED
Wow, you said so much hilariously wrong stuff that I don’t know where to begin.
Report Post »AndrewJerome
Posted on August 18, 2012 at 12:30pmAs I was growing up, Catholic, my friends consisted of Baptists, both black and white, Jews, Protestants and those who either didn‘t believe or just didn’t care.. We went to school together, played together, ate at each others houses and respected each other. Our differences made no difference. No one tried to convert me or kill me. I’m still Catholic and still friends with those who are left. I don‘t tell an athiest what to believe or not to believe and I’m really starting to get pi$$ed when they tell me what I should or should not to believe. So I say to those who stand their ground whether in a school or in a public building or just on the street, when you are told to cease and desist, PRAY HARDER and SING LOUDER to your Savior and drown out the evil that wants you to stop. We just have to keep telling them NO !
Report Post »Pigpen
Posted on August 19, 2012 at 1:20amI wouldn’t be mad if a public school was singing about Allah, IF I LIVED IN IRAN. And NOT ONE of the “Stand By Israel” Conservative Christians here on theBlaze has a problem with Israel being a strictly JEWISH THEOCRACY where it is illegal for Christians to proselyte. So if you haven’t figured it out, Mr. Larson, WE live in the United States of America, which is NOT a “Nation of Laws” or a “Proposition Nation”. The USA is a WHITE CHRISTIAN NATION. So stop with the laws this, laws that, blah blah blah. Because here in the USA: We speak of Christ. We BELIEVE in Christ. And we TESTIFY of Christ. If you don’t like, GET THE H3LL 0UT !!!
BLAZE MODERATORS: I know that this will only be censored like my last two posts tonight. But I am still trying and keeping copies of what gets through and what doesn‘t compared to the HATEFUL rhetoric of those to whose IDEAS theBlaze doesn’t seem to object.
Report Post »Reesie
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:25amThe Bible is indisputably the best literary work and history book in the world, regardless of whether or not people believer what is written in it. Judeo-Christiana hymns are indisputably some of the greatest musical works ever composed. The greatest art in all of history was done by people who honored and respected the Jehovah God the Father and Jesus God the Son of the Bible and depicted Biblical scenes. The greatest musical scores ever written were done by people who honored and respected the Jehovah God the Father and Jesus God the Son of the Bible and the music is about Them. The greatest foundations of civilization come from the Bible, including the Ten Commandments, and the “Two greatest commandments per Jesus of Nazareth: “Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love thy neighbor as thyself”. (This is the foundation and reason why America has been the greatest nation on earth where people risk their lives and leave socialist, communist, atheist countries to come here and partake in the American dream. In the world, all schools, universities, hospitals, nursing, orphanages, etc. were started by Jews and Christians, i.e. “people of the BOOK”. All of the US’s Ivy League colleges have Biblical inscriptions and Scripture etched on their stones and say they were founded to train followers of Jesus Christ how to understand the Bible to be prepared to go out into the world and spread the “Good News” (i.e. Gospel) of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Report Post »Dan_o
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:19am“The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.” There’s never been a more clear example.
Report Post »damnedifwedont
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:38pmAmen. ‘A fool says in his heart there is no God.’
Report Post »damnedifwedont
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:40pmDear God,Why do You ket so many bad things happen in our schools?’
Report Post »‘Because you kicked Me out.’
another mimi
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:03amWhat can possibly motivate these atheists to be SO aggressively militant and hateful? What happened to tolerance and “Live and Let Live”?
I’m not “religious” in the sense that I’m a church-goer, but neither am I an atheist. (I‘m just humble enough to claim I DON’T KNOW, so I will tolerate many opinions!)
Letting the word “God” remain in so many of our traditional songs and signs — as it has for so many centuries — does not bother me! It’s called our “culture”. Banning the word “God” is equivalent to banning old classic books because they contain the “N” word, as in Steinbeck’s “Mice and Men” — It’s an historical fact that people called black people that word in the past. Period. It was part of the culture, whether you like it or not. You can’t change history.
If the militant atheists (in their minds) have “progressed” to the point of not being religious or theists like MOST people in the past were, then don’t behave like people who want to ban books! Religion WAS and IS a huge part of our cultural heritage – - an historical FACT! Deal with it!
Report Post »Bill from NJ
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 3:47pmA Mimi,
Report Post »These folks are nothing but insignificant, worthless, petty; contemptible, little pissants, looking to feel better from their enormous lack of self esteem and emotional insecurity.
They suffer from a form of Narcissistic personality disorder.
They stroke each others ego by going around making normal people feel just as miserable as these a$$clowns.
They will not bee too happy when they will be shoveling coal for all eternity….
thibx
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:59ami don‘t understand these people if they don’t believe in God why should it matter to them. devils mouth piece.
Report Post »Verceofreason
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 8:50pmThey have a right not to have their children messed up when they leave home.
Report Post »It’s a from of bullying.
SDW2001
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:56amI am a music teacher in a public school district. There is deep-rooted precedent for religious songs being used to study musical concepts. It happens all the time, especially at the secondary level. The primary purpose of these songs is not religious, which by the way…is the same grounds on which “under God” was upheld in the Pledge (the latter was deemed a “patriotic exercise”). As long as the district is not forcing elementary children to sing the songs over their or their parents’ objections, and as long as they are clearly not being used as prayer, there is no legal problem. That being said, I don’t think I would use such songs in my district, unless they were, say, patriotic in nature. One learns to avoid poking the bear on these topics.
As for the FFRF: Their entire existence is absolutely absurd. One does not have a right to freedom from religion in this country. One has a right not to practice a religion or believe in God, but one does not have the freedom to avoid all mention of religion. That infringes on the 1st Amendment rights of OTHER people. Ironic, hmm?
Report Post »another mimi
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:51amWhat can possibly motivate these atheists to be SO aggressively militant and hateful? What happened to tolerance and “Live and Let Live”?
I’m not “religious” in the sense that I’m a church-goer, but neither am I an atheist. (I‘m just humble enough to claim I DON’T KNOW !)
Letting the word “God” remain in so many of our traditional songs and signs — as it has for so many centuries — does not bother me! It’s called our “culture”. Banning the word “God” is equivalent to banning old classic books because they contain the word, “******” as in Steinbeck’s “Mice and Men” — It’s an historical fact that people called black people that word in the past. Period. It was part of the culture, whether you like it or not.
If the militant atheists (in their minds) have “progressed” to the point of not being religious or theists like MOST people in the past were, then don’t behave like people who want to ban books! Deal with it!
Report Post »OLDPAINT
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:48amKiss my rear fender athiests.
Report Post »IslandAtheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:53amYou’ll need to pull your head out of it first.
Report Post »LemonyFresh
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:25amSo tell us Island… what is your god? Everyone has a god. Maybe it is the moldy rock we reside on? Maybe it is humanity itself, I would go for the moldy rock over humans. Maybe is the 12 cats you are hording. Or could it be the money, I hope not because your god is not very might these days. I hope it is not yourself, one day you will be sitting on your lounger minding your own business, maybe working a crossword and boom! you will have pooped all over yourself, and that is not very god-like. Just wondering, you have a god and we would like to see just what it is.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 2:18pm@Lemon
“Everyone has a god.”
If you think this, apparently you have never met an atheist, nor a polytheist. One has no god, the other has more than “a god.”
Report Post »DLV
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 6:51pmlocked- if you are truly a Christian, you should probably be criticizing atheists’ insane arguments. I’ve never seen you do that. While yes, we should address the silly comments by Christians, which I do now and then, I’ve never really seen you go up against an atheist….
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 17, 2012 at 4:51pm@DLV
“- if you are truly a Christian, you should probably be criticizing atheists’ insane arguments. I’ve never seen you do that. While yes, we should address the silly comments by Christians, which I do now and then, I’ve never really seen you go up against an atheist….”
When an atheist says something wrong, I’ll correct them. Unfortunately, it seems like the religious people on this site get the facts wrong quite often. As we’re “on the same side,” I like to make sure my ducks are in a row before we fight others.
Report Post »zjak
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:47amWow, I am amazed by this. I don‘t grasp at the concept of trying to remove anything that’s even remotely religious from the public domain. I’d like to see this case reach the SCOTUS, and see what happens there.
Report Post »Steverino
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:27pmI don‘t know that I’d like to see ANYTHING reach the SCOTUS about now.
Report Post »justangry
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:37amI just enrolled my daughter at a Christian preschool. They even have religion classes in the curriculum. Problem solved. My wife is a Christian, but I did it because the graduates from this particular preschool are WAY ahead of the curve when they get to kindergarden than the secular government preschools. She’ll probably be going to Catholic schools for the same reason. Based on precendence, ffrf will win all these cases, so it seems time would be better served creating more faith-based private schools than fighting it in court. Who wants their kids taught by the government anyway?
Report Post »momrules
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:55amGood morning JUST……..Good for you and your wife. Your children will receive a much better education than my kids did in public school and you won’t be having to constantly fight the school and the district the way I and many of my friends did.
Report Post »justangry
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:15am@Mom, Can you believe the city preschool around here is mandated by the state to have a mentor program. So children would get in for dirt cheap, but they would be paired up with the poor children that can’t really do things on their own or are slow. That’s a load of crap. I feel for the less fortunate children and their problems, but I certainly don’t want my 4 yr old daughter being limited because of it either. She is too young to have that reponsibility thrust upon her by the state.
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:33am@Just,
Wait…you’ve reproduced? God help us all.
Ok, sorry about that. I don’t know why but I am feeling super-ornery this AM. Never mind me.
Report Post »resme
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:10pmPaulbots have kids? I thought we all sat in the basement sucking our thumbs rocking back in forth in tin foil hats repeating the constitution day and night. Oh ya, While smoking pot,meth,cocaine, and heroin. We also log on computers with our anarchist buddies via skype whistling battle of new Orleans. (replaced the British with republican party.)
Report Post »momrules
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 3:06pmJust…………they did the same mentoring thing with both my kids but in the 3rd or 4th grade. It has been a while ago so I’m not sure of the grade level. I agree with you that your little one is too young for this. Good luck.
Report Post »zoro51
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:36amhey SNATCH see how long you last in a car accident when your life ends see when u cry out to god if hell have mercy on your tired hole n save you form eternal hell.. OH its real lady n HELL is where you n the rest of your athiests clan will end up in believe it or nbot YOU SHALL ROT IN HELL for there IS a god n HE IS LORD!
Report Post »Hrothgar
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:41amStill spreading the love I see.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:47ami think he’s talking to an imaginary voice in his head (who’s SNATCH??).
it’s funny when people relish the idea of fellow humans burning in hell for all eternity. if the whole idea weren’t so ridiculous it would be sad, but there’s no real harm in this dude wanting me, or others like me, to go to an imaginary place.
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:02am@Philly,
Great point. I heard Penn Jillette talk about his encounter with a Christian who wanted to give him a bible. Penn is atheist as well, but he thanked the man and accepted it. I’ll summarize here, but basically Penn said that if you are a Christian you believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ and not believing is a sentence to an eternity of suffering….then what kind of sick SOB must you be to NOT try and tell someone about the savior or give them a chance. How much must you HATE someone to revel in your grace and sneer at the lack of it in someone else?
Penn is still an atheist, but perhaps someday his heart will be moved. But in the end, he is right. It bothers me when Christians are so spiteful to atheists. It bothers me when atheists are so spiteful as well by trying to strip away people’s faith. No place for either.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:25am@ PHILLY…..Good morning friend, I continue to pray for you (not meant as a jab or personal afront, sincere only). I know you will probably say you don’t need it, but I want you to know that even though I don’t know you personally I am praying for you. I hope you appreciate our past discussions and I agree with your sentiment about not taking joy in the downfall of others. I was, at one time, an atheist just as you are (and many others I engage with on the Blaze, that’s why I respond to so many of your questions and assertions) so my heart is for those whom beliefs I used to share. You have a good day my friend and thank you for your time….Please remember that their are many who hold out a sincere love and message for those that disagree with them without ire or vengence. It is a spirit of humility that understands that we too deserve nothing less than condmenation. We are most assuredly no better in any way, only Christ within us. Thank you friend…
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:36amROTH – howdy partner, thanks for the response.
SLEEZE – good to hear from you. you know i appreciate the sentiment (no, i don’t need it, lol) and i certainly appreciate your even handed demeanor. you also have a great day.
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:51pm:) we can all be friends
Report Post »Wildblue3
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:35amCan we start a group called “Freedom From Aethists Foundations??
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:48amgo for it. what would your mission statement be?
Report Post »NineteenEighty4
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:01amYes. Yes, you can. It’s called any religion, ever. Now only if a religion had a marked, easily identifiable place of worship. If only they had a place where they could meet with other like-minded individuals and discuss their beliefs. If only…
Report Post »amerbur
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:33amThere is no such thing as freedom from religion. God created the world as it is. He created you and me. As the Bible says, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all thing were made, without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. So you may attempt to hide the light, but it shines even in the darkness.
Report Post »Popp40
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:29amWhere does this group get the money from to pay for all these court cases?
I also wanted to point out something Annie Laurie Gaylor stated:
“This is not minor,” FFRF co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor told FOX. “It’s predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn’t attend public school.”
By her logic then, anything taught in a school could be considered predatory towards the young….so one could use the same arguement about them teaching “Global Warming/Climate Change” or any other liberal idea.
Sorry but the Constitution says freedom OF Religion…not freedom from Religion. This group needs to come to terms that America was founded on Judeo Christian beliefs.
Report Post »AllLost
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:27amOk, the Ten Commandments have been forbidden to be on public property because they promote the establishment of a religion, or so they say. To my way of thinking then the government should not be involved with any of the commandments listed. There should be no laws concerning murder or theft or violating a married woman. Isn’t that the logical conclusion?
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:31amthere’s nothing logical in anything that you just posited. is there a law i’m not aware of that would imprison me for breaking any of the first 4 comandments? is adultery now a criminal offense? how about thought crime – can i be tossed in jail for coveting my neighbor’s property?
if possible, please try to think before you write nonsense. you should be embarrassed.
Report Post »IslandAtheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:49amBut, those are the songs that got me started on the road to atheism.
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:02amphillyatheist – there must be a cause for you to promote that is much more worthwhile then trying to do away with God. If you don’t believe in God, fine, but why harass people who do believe? It just seems silly. Maybe it does make some people on here angry about this case, but for the most part, people who believe in God try to live good and caring lives. How does that bother or harm atheist? So many ideologies are being promoted today, take your pick, but to go after believers doesn’t make sense. There is great harm in true racism and abortion, why not fight what does true harm?
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:20amThe 10 Commandments ask us to be aware of a power higher than ourselves. Most of the Commandments deal with caring about others and doing no harm. Without those Commandments we would not have laws that stop injuring others and ourself. If you want to be your own higher authority, what do you base your actions on? Doing no harm? That is what the Commandments ask of us. I think that is the point ALLLOST was making. To tell ALLLOST to think before they write such nonsense only shows a lack of understanding on your part.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:20am“but for the most part, people who believe in God try to live good and caring lives. How does that bother or harm atheist?”
that’s fine, and it doesn’t bother me, nor most Atheists that i know. i don’t think anything i say here is an attempt to harass Believers or eliminate God. if you look, you‘ll notice that mainly i’m attacking posters who offer absurd positions or hate filled rhetoric. call it a weakness if you will.
for the record, i do support other worthwhile (in my opinion) causes either through donation or volunteer work (i recently started volunteering with the ACLU!).
i’m also pro-choice, so i won’t support any causes that involve overturning Roe v Wade or Personhood. that’s my right, no?
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:27amNHWINTER – with all do respect, i’d like to see ALLOST defend his/her own words. more specifically, why not address my retort and point out where it’s flawed. it’s quite clear that our laws are not based on the 10 commandments. only 2 of them (killing and stealing) are relevant.
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:30amphillyatheist – the offenses you mentioned may not have laws forbidding them, but they do harm to others and they do harm to the individual. Adultery harms spouses and families, coveting harms the individual who covets. Actually the 10 Commandments are a healthy way to live. If you take out the ones that pertain to honoring God, the rest stand on their own merit. For some of us, honoring a higher, superior intelligence is something we enjoy doing. To each his own.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:33amNHWINTER – fair enough, and i have never said that the other 6 commandments don’t have value in life, simply that they have nothing to do with the law.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:00pm@NHWINTER
Why bother those people who do?
You mean those people who continually assert that this is a Christian nation?
You mean those people who voted “In God We Trust” as our Motto in the 1950s?
You mean those 46% of Republicans in Mississippi who want to ban interracial marriage because it’s against their “beliefs?”
You mean those millions and millions of Christians in American who continue to try to outlaw homosexuals from marrying?
You mean those people who took out Thomas Jefferson and put in John Calvin in their textbooks?
One day there is a harmless prayer banner in a school, the next your congress is voting to make a religious statement a motto for the country.
Religion(and Christianity in this country) has brought all of this on themselves by continually trying to shove their religion down everyone’s throat.
Your special treatment is over in this country.
Report Post »may40
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:25amI have to applaud this NY school. Good for you!!!!!
Report Post »may40
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:24amThe reason they are atheists is for one reason…they want to continue to live immoral lives. Very very sad.
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:07am@May40,
I‘m sure you’re right about some folks. As for me, in college I had doubts about the whole “God thing”. I thought that maybe the whole God thing was made up. BUT, it made me do research and study and search my soul. I came out the other side a better Christian with a stronger faith. Some people are works in progress and/or in transition. If you saw me on that day in college, you’d have written me off. Now, I am saved. I was born again…truly. Everyone has a spiritual journey and walk to salvation. Some people hit bumps. I’d much rather see folks in heaven than write them off to hell. I‘m glad the Lord didn’t write me off back then.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:56pm@MAY40
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Yup, it’s immoral for me to serve lesser fortunate people.
Report Post »Yup, it‘s immoral for me to put the lives of my friend’s children above my own.
Yup, it’s immoral for me to care about the rights of ALL people, and not just the people who agree with me.
Ghandi was a Republican
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:21amThis is the attack on Christianity from the bible. Obama is the pestilence (birds fall from the sky during flyovers, and vermin and insects show up on stage with him) and sloth of the bible. If you hired an enemy to be President- he would do exactly what obama and his band of loons are doing to America!
Report Post »IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:53amPhilly yes, it is hard to understand but it is your choice. You, too, should also have respect for others that don’t believe your way.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:02amIMCHRISTIAN – indeed. that doesn‘t mean that if someone says something inflamatory or hateful that i can’t point out there absurdity.
Report Post »Dan_o
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:18amPhilly, you should re-read your posts. I think you are guilty of falling short of your own “standard”.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:24amDAN – you may be right. nobody’s perfect. care to offer an example of one of my posts that goes too far? i’m open to this discussion.
Report Post »Dan_o
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:31pmPhilly, I’m sure you can figure out which posts would qualify.
I think a better question would be, why should I, or anyone, take anything you say seriously if you can’t hold up to your own standard? Does that argument sound familiar?
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 1:18pmDAN – this is a comment section on an internet blog, i don’t expect anyone to take what i say too seriously. the standards for such a forum are rather undefined. i do my best, and if i offend or come across like a jackhammer sometimes i think i can be forgiven.
Report Post »momrules
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:20amLord forgive me but the way I feel towards these people at FFRF borders on hatred. They are the most despicable people in America, the biggest bullies in America, the most evil people in America and apparently some of the best funded people in America. Who funds these people?
Their hatred of God and Jesus Christ is a full time job for them. They want God removed from America and will never stop their brand of madness until they achieve their goals.
I thank God for Jesus. When they face Him how surprised they will be.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:28amGod is a big boy and can take care of Himself. can’t He?
Report Post »Popp40
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:30am@ Momrules…I asked the same question….who is funding these people?
Report Post »Steelhead
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:35amphilly- so much hate from the restoring love crowd
Report Post »IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:37amPhilly—-God is good and even you will need Him in your life at some point. Think of Him and you won’t be sorry.
Report Post »justangry
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:38amPerhaps the Blaze could dig into it. I couldn’t find out much about the ACLU either. Use your resources to follow the money, Billy!
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:41amSTEEL – don’t i know it.
IMCHRISTIAN – thanks, but no thanks. i’m perfectly happy without Him. i‘m sure that’s hard for you to imagine.
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:51am@MOM~~~ Morning!
Agree. Follow the money. It leads to satan in this instance (as always) who is funding all the wars vs. CHRISTIANS and JEWS since the beginning of time.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:04amKICK – does Satan have a PO Box?
Report Post »demsaredumb
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:16amFu FFRF
Report Post »olddog
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:16amThe so called atheist organization is totaly backed and funded by rich muslims. The atheists are only their cover..
Report Post »sawbuck
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:13amAt least this enemy I can see coming straight at me..
Report Post »the ones that come at you from behind,
are the ones I worry about.
You know what I’m talking about blaze.
lisa2994
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:56amSo do I Sawbuck! So do I! We know that GOD will defeat them in the end and his divine protection will be over us as well.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:12amthis is why i love the Blaze – i’d never know about any of the good work that the FFRF is doing if not for stories here. thanks Glen, much obliged!
Report Post »sawbuck
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:22amAnd you should thank them ,not until today ,did I
Report Post »realize ,you all had so much in common.
flipper1073
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:59am@ Philly
Report Post »Hi Philly
I see your stiring up the Evangelicals this morning.
You know me I won’t tell You what to Believe.
If you Don’t tell me what NOT to Believe.
You might want to tell your Friends Though It’s
Freedom OF religion NOT freedom From Religion
phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:12amhey FLIP, yeah, i’m at it early today. i can almost always count on the Blaze to give me a good Atheist story.
i personally believe that i have a freedom from religion, to an extent. the courts seem to agree with me, mostly siding with groups like the FFRF and the ACLU (which i am a card carrying member). it’s obviously a case by case thing. in this particular case, i’m kinda meh. these songs aren’t overtly religious – but if they were singing, say, “The Butterfly Song” (I just thank you father for making me me), which i learned in a Christian elementary school, i’d have a real problem with that.
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:30am@Philly,
I’m not exactly sure that freedom from religion and freedom of religion can co-exist. By exercising my religion beyond the doors of my house of worship I am now violating your perceived right of freedom of religion. I’d argue that you no more have a right to freedom from religion than you have the right to not be offended (vs. my right to free speech). Provided I do not slander you, you have no right to not be offended because my right to speak trumps your desire to not be offended.
For you to be correct, despite what the courts say, the constitution would need to be amended. Again, where do rights come from? That’s always a beer-worth question as well I think, but it is important to understand that the constitution was predicated on a framework of natural law and divine providence. The freedom OF religion was an inalienable right (not withstanding where it originated from). The freedom FROM religion was never provided for. Now, you can certainly pull out the Paine and Jefferson “wall” argument at this point. We can have a grand old time going through that one too, if you like. If not and you‘d just prefer to agree to disagree then that’s fine by me too.
Report Post »flipper1073
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:33amWell have fun,
Report Post »I’m sure this story will soar to the Top of the Page.
an the most Popular stories list.
My Favorite Stories (about Sarah Palin)
Always drop to the bottom of the page FAST.
then Disappear.
I think they have someone from HUFFPO
who hates Sarah making the decisions.
anyway have a good one.
phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:42am“By exercising my religion beyond the doors of my house of worship I am now violating your perceived right of freedom of religion”
yeah, that‘s not what i’m saying. exercising your religion beyond the doors of Church is fine, until it lands on publicly funded property or institutions. that‘s why i’d have a problem with a public school teaching kids “The Butterfly Song”, for example. are you familiar with this tune?
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 11:55am@Philly,
You know I’ve never heard the “butterfly song” before. I grew up in the great plains in 19th century church buildings singing 19th century hymns though. So, probably a good reason why.
So you are saying that the framers wrote the DOI and declared that our rights are endowed to us by our creator. Then they wrote the constitution and put the 1st amendment…not the 10th or 4th…the FIRST providing for freedom of speech and freedom of religion and that there should not be a STATE RELIGION (see Anglican church or Catholic Church ie Richelieu)
That after all of that, you want me to believe that their intention and the interpretation of their writings is that I can’t sing the butterfly song on land that I helped pay for?
I enjoy our debate, but brother I don‘t think you’ll ever pull me your direction on that one.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:03pm“That after all of that, you want me to believe that their intention and the interpretation of their writings is that I can’t sing the butterfly song on land that I helped pay for?”
that‘s pretty much what i’m saying. yes, we may have to agree to disagree here. the courts have been interpreting it way, and maybe they’re wrong too. reasonable people can debate this issue and still come away on different sides. these are complicated issues, no doubt.
Report Post »Rothbardian_in_the_Cleve
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 12:09pmWell, then there’s that. Ha. All the best to you…sans Butterfly Song police state. :-)
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 1:20pmButterfly Song Police, hahaha. good one! i might have to change my screen name to that :)
Report Post »TeresaJ
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 3:06pmIf I were a butterfly, I’d thank you Lord for giving me wings
And if I were a robin in a tree, I’d thank you Lord that I can sing
And if I were a fish in the sea, I‘d wiggle my tail and I’d giggle with glee
But I just thank you Father for making me, me
Made me start singing Philly. :) Thank you for pulling up sweet childhood memories.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 7:41pmTERESA – happy i could help :) oddly enough, i find myself humming that very song from time to time. we practiced it soooo many times it is permanently engrained into my memory.
Report Post »IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on August 16, 2012 at 10:09amGood for the
Shenendehowa Central Schools.
God has been and always be a part of our lives and if anyone does not believe that then they can go to doing nothing and leave the rest alone. You can wish, hope and everything else to try to get God out of our lives and it won’t work because we can feel, see and know the love of God by all that he has given us. Look around u will see God in everything.
Report Post »