Faith

Atheists, Christians & School Officials Clash Over Morning Prayer at a Public School Flagpole

Atheists, Christians Clash Over Morning Prayer at Clay Hill ElementaryClay Hill Elementary School in Jacksonville, Florida, finds itself in the middle of an epic battle over the separation of church and state.

It’s Baptist Pastor Ron Baker versus the Clay County School District. Of course, outside groups, too, have joined into the intense debate. The pastor, who has been holding prayer meetings at several of the district’s schools for most than a decade, was recently told by the school board that doing so is unconstitutional.

But despite officials’ warnings, he claims he has no intention of ceasing. According to Jacksonville.com, he said:

“I think if I were to stop, it somehow sends the message that I think it must be wrong. Why wouldn’t I want to pray for the safety and security of that school, pray for all those teachers and administration, pray for all those students.”

Let’s delve a bit further into the details, as this one’s a bit tough to follow. The Huffington Post reports that the center of the debate appears to hinge on a morning prayer meeting that occurs at 8:15 a.m. at Clay Hill Elementary School. In an opinion written up by J. Bruce Bickner, an attorney for the board, these prayers aren’t legal — an idea that religious rights groups disagree with.

“…It is a violation of the United States Constitution for a teacher, school administrator or other school district employee to join in a prayer session during their work time,” Bickner wrote.

The controversy commenced when, as WOKV.com reports, ”Clay Hill principal Larry Davis sent out a memo in September urging students and members of the community to take part in the prayer circle.” The memo promoted the prayer session to the school’s 40-member staff, while citing a controversial article that claims that the First Amendment only applies to Christians. Below, find the principal’s letter:

Memo/Newsletter from Principal Larry Davis

This, of course, caught the attention of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, an atheist and “freethinkers’” rights group. Annie Laurie Gaylor, the organization’s president, says she was “horrified” by the language in the letter. So, the FFRF wrote a letter asking for the sessions to be stopped. Here’s it is:

Freedom from Religion Foundation’s letter to Clay County Schools

But the letter-writing didn’t end there. Responding to the FFRF, Liberty Counsel, a group that represents the interests of faith leaders and others, called the group’s demands “unconstitutional.” You can see a portion of Liberty Counsel’s letter below or click here to read the entire thing.

Atheists, Christians Clash Over Morning Prayer at Clay Hill Elementary

Sensing that the situation is a sensitive one, the school’s superintendent suggested that the group try and meet earlier in the day before staff members were on campus. Baker, though, isn‘t bowing to the district’s demands, nor is he listening to officials’ suggestions. “We’re not changing anything,” he has said.

This past Monday, Baker pushed on with his plans to hold the prayer event at the regularly-scheduled time and location. WOKV.com has more:

A crowd of about 100 people — many adults and relatively few schoolchildren — gathered outside the flag pole at 8:15…to hear a prayer led by Pastor Ron Baker of Russell Baptist Church. [...]

Before the prayer, a defiant Baker told WOKV news he has every right to do what he’s doing.

“We’re not breaking the law.  We’re exercising our rights well within school board policy (and) well within constitutional guidelines.”

Jacksonville.com estimated that last week’s crowd was filled with about 150 people, describing it as “big.” Below, see footage from last week’s prayer meeting at the flagpole:

At least one parent has reported that these prayer sessions have always been held before school hours and that they are voluntary and not mandatory. ”Did you ever think that in America you’d be in trouble for praying at the flag? It’s disturbing,” Baker told Fox News’ Todd Starnes earlier this month.

The school board will be meeting on November 14 to discuss prayers on school property.

Comments (283)

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  • PilgrimStuckInBizarroWorld
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:39pm

    Stand together for truth. If we keep letting people push God out of our schools guess what he will leave! This kind of stuff needs to stop now. It is our God-given right to pray where ever we want, when we want. He made us for worship and relationship. Pray for the school and also for the emenies of God who would have us all in the pit with them.
    TRUTH
    TEA

    Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:01pm

      The state does not have power to run the church – 1st amendment

      Nowhere in the constitution does it prohibit prayer in a public setting or school. The phrase “separation of church and state” is not in our constitution.

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Hiswill
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:17pm

      All the churches in this town should be showing up to pray and support this man. It’s been going on for 15 years without a hitch. Get out and support Pastor Baker and support your God. I’m tired of being told where and how we can pray. This is the United States of America not communist China or North Korea. God Bless America!

      Report Post » Hiswill  
    • Ookspay
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:27pm

      The best way for this to end is going back to the beginninig. Since so many different groups are pulling apart “public” schools with their special requests and exceptions, let’s just get the government out of the entire industry entirely. school vouchers for everyone. Pick the school you want to send your kids to. The competition will ferret out the best and least effective systems of education, the quality will go up and the price will go down. This will also finally break the back of the biggest most corrupt unions in the country.

      Report Post » Ookspay  
    • encinom
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:30pm

      Ranger Dan, forgot the second half about establishing religion. Were the school district to promote ths Pastor’s trespassing onto school grounds to pray, the State woul dbe gulity of violating the Establishment Clause.

      This PAstor and his followers need to dragged off in handcuffs for trespassing.

       
    • American Soldier (Separated)
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:43pm

      So now only Christian life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is protected huh? He didn’t even bother putting Christian in brackets for that line. The founding fathers took great time and consideration into the constitution. If they wanted to say Christian religion in the 1st Amendment or to only protect the unalienable rights of christian’s life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, they would have written it in that way. They gave us a republic so that the minorities will be protected from the majorities. They didn’t want this country to be run like that. Get that through your skulls.

      Report Post » American Soldier (Separated)  
    • WD0331
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:05pm

      Encinom, your an idiot. Go read the 1st Amendment again.

      Report Post » WD0331  
    • Mimi24
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:06pm

      Nothing further to add. You said it beautifully.

      Report Post »  
    • JBee449
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:07pm

      Ookspay: Amen to that!

      Report Post »  
    • abbygirl1994
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:31pm

      Wouldn’t it be wonderful to go to a school and see a real Christmas program instead of these stupid crappy things they put on now.. Those who don‘t want to participate don’t have to.. why can’t the schools just have another activity to children who are denied to know Christ.. God help us!

      Report Post » abbygirl1994  
    • rangerp
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:40pm

      @encinom

      How you doing? it has been a while my good friend. ranger dan has been spending to many hours perched in a tree looking for Old Swampy the monster buck to be on here typing. I just cleared Fort Benning and am on leave. I have a week or so before moving on to the next duty, and want to get in as much hunting as I can.

      I think you will find that the Pastor is not the government nor a rep from the gov. I would agree that he can not go into the school and make it mandatory that everyone join his prayer meeting, but if those that want to pray, meet him at the flag pole, then there is no violation of the first amendment.

      thanks for you comments though.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:41pm

      abbygirl1994

      Come on down to Columbus, Georgia, and watch the Grace Christian School play and you will not be dissapointed.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • mr.goodvibe
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 9:43pm

      So you don’t have to strain yourself and look it up ENCINOM.

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      Report Post » mr.goodvibe  
    • Falsegods
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 12:14am

      “1836 Noah Webster ”the father of American education”, expressed the purpose of schools was meant for the advancement of the Christian faith: “in my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children under a Free Government ought to be instructed… No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to Secure The Rights and Privileges of a free people.”

      From American Patriot’s Bible

      Report Post »  
    • StonyBurk
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 8:08am

      “If a man cannot be a Christian in the place where he is,he cannot be a Christian anywhere.” Henry Ward Beecher P.42 n.33 america’s God and Country , Wm.J.Federer editor.If we were yet a Constitutional
      Republic of Laws applied equally to all — If our Courts were held to the Oath administered and defending the Constitution as they purport intent to do–If the fundamental Law (twice Passed Northwest Ordinance-
      is recognized -and the history of the establishment of American education — If we would only speak up and insist these citizens be allowed their Constitutionally recognized rights There is No legal ground nor any Moral ground for these atheists and infidels these enemies of our Constitution and Laws these bullies that seek to scare silly women and weak men into doing their bidding -with no power beyond fear to do so. See you at the pole. Stand with this school.and with these Americans.

      Report Post »  
    • CMDR6
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 11:27am

      The Constitution only states that CONGRESS cannot establish a religion, it never says, inplies nor infers that an individual principal that is living by principle cannot sanction prayer. Just because we have had WIMPS defending our constitution in the courts does not mean we have to alow it to continue to be perverted and twisted. WAKE UP…read the constitution for yourself. It is plain and easy to read.
      ENCINOM…you sound like you are a God-less soul, in much agony….I pray for you…….

      Report Post » CMDR6  
    • jebus
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 1:01pm

      There are hundreds of gods. Who gets to decide which one anyone gets to pray to.

       
    • madasblazes
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 1:11pm

      Agreed. I thought this was precious! “See you at the Pole” has been around for years and we need Christian prayers to continue.
      Stand strong Ron and Christians everywhere. We will and we must not bow down to these God-haters.

      “If God be for us, who then can be against us?” The Lord is on our side. Stand firm!!

      Report Post »  
    • nlpeabody
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 1:50pm

      This freedom of religion organization has got to be stopped. Every time I see something else taken down or taken away it has to do with this group of Christian Bashers. If it had been muslims with their butts to the sky they wouldn’t have said a thing.

      Report Post » nlpeabody  
    • proudinfidel54
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 3:00pm

      RangerP, It’s funny how only Satan can take that remarkably clear constitutional statement and twist it around to mean something totally the opposite and to have so many people not see the truth, that is truely supernatural.

      Report Post » proudinfidel54  
    • proudinfidel54
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 3:29pm

      This is a great opportunity for Christians to let these Socialist, Atheistic, Troublemakers know just where they stand and where we stand. We as Christians need to rally around this Principle in strength, we need to write to the Schoolboard and warn them that their jobs are on the line behind this issue, also that we as the Christian Majority are fed up with these anti-Christian decision processes . If we are truely tired of these constant attacks by satan and his atheistic minions than it is time to take a stance and do something besides sitting on our duffs and writing these little theatening replies. Who knows, if we make enough noise, maybe we will scare these atheist minions back under their rocks out of the light.

      Report Post » proudinfidel54  
    • BuzzardSays
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 4:17pm

      To Encinom,
      You said…“This PAstor and his followers need to dragged off in handcuffs for trespassing” .

      I feel the same way about OWS freaks at every locale they show their smarmy faces. Handcuffed and dragged off.

      BTW: Your ownership by the Prince of the Air, Satan, is stamped firmly on your forehead very clearly for all to see. Thanks for making yourself known so you can be shunned.

      Report Post » BuzzardSays  
    • Dismayed Veteran
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 5:02pm

      Many will not like my posting. I believe in prayer in school. There was prayer in the all the schools I attended from 1954 through 1966. I went to a religious college beginning in 1966, where we had church service every day.

      Now the other shoe drops. The Principle made a serious mistake when he wrote that the 1st Amendment applied only to Christians. This is simply not true. I disagree with anyone who twists the Constitution of the United States to fit any agenda. Finally, this twisting of the Constitution gave the FFRF ammunition in their contiuing fight to keep God out of our schools.

      Report Post » Dismayed Veteran  
    • skeptic4321
      Posted on November 11, 2011 at 3:02pm

      God is an imaginary friend in your mind- no one can push your god out of your head- and there is no god needed in biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, etc., the things that our children need to learn and the things that will actually improve this nation and the world.
      So, please stop perpetuating your magical thinking and superstitions – they are no longer needed for modern civilization (unless, of course, you seek to oppress people and suppress knowledge).
      And, I personally don‘t want potential pedophile preachers anywhere near my kids’ schools. Do you want to screen all the nut cases who want to “prey” in schools?

      Report Post »  
  • ConservativeChristianB1954
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:39pm

    If God does not exist, then what are the Atheists afraid of? They want to take our religious freedom away. This is why they are complaining. Don’t believe in God? Fine, just don’t try to take OUR Constitutional freedom of Religion away.

    Report Post » ConservativeChristianB1954  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:36pm

      Atheists afren’t afraid of God. They’re afraid of the ungodly.

      your sensei  
    • HorseCrazy
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:24pm

      amen! I am happy to say my child‘s public school choir sang God Bless America to the veteran’s who attended today and gasp, prayed after doing the pledge to the flag. They also had a moment of silence for the lost and prayed for those still serving. I think this is a wonderful thing for our children and the veterans that attended, the athiests are NOT the majority in this country and are not in anyway forced to participate which was made clear if parents wanted to opt out of their child’s attendence to the at school assembly.

      Report Post »  
    • republitarian
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:42pm

      C’mon, Sensei! Read the comment. No one said Atheists are afraid of God. Although, that could be an interesting subject for further discussion. The Blaze could put up one of their signature headlines, “Do Atheists Really Fear God???????”

      And don’t you all tell me not to feed the trolls. I like this one. Can we keep it? We don’t have that many…

      republitarian  
    • restorehope
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:58pm

      There is a plus side to incidents like this. The hatred of the atheists actually helps unite Christians and encourages people to think about their faith and defend it.

      We have to realize that atheists are arguing from a viewpoint that is based upon fear of their own mortality. If they weren’t so afraid of their lack of a future, they wouldn’t be so obsessed with believers who have no reason to fear the future at all because of their faith in God.

      Report Post »  
    • Capitalizt
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 9:23pm

      I don‘t know why atheists are complaining I’m an atheist and I think it is okay to exercise your freedom of religion as long as its optional and not obstructing to me or others.
      I guess some atheists don’t realize they are practicing their freedom of religion by not having one.

      Report Post » Capitalizt  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:02pm

      We atheists are miserable tools who have, through our superior intellect, realized our lives are useless and pointless.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
    • Your Sensie
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:17pm

      Atheists aren’t afraid of God, their afraid of themselves. Where’s my diaper.

      Report Post » Your Sensie  
    • FoxholeAtheist
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 9:22am

      It is not god we are afraid of. It is the religion of those that follow it being constantly pushed down our throats and into our lives.

      FoxholeAtheist  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 10:49am

      YOUR BAKA – “We atheists are miserable tools who have, through our superior intellect, realized our lives are useless and pointless.” How can you type while wearing a straight jacket? Impressive.

      Report Post »  
    • proudinfidel54
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 3:12pm

      FOXHOLEATHEIST The truth is, no one has forced you (are anyone else) to go to that flag pole to pray, but the real issue is, that you cannot stand it when anyone else wants to exercise their right to pray, you are not content to exercise your right not to believe, you want to force others into thinking the way you think, ironically that is the exact same thing you accuse the Christians of doing. Go figure! We Christians have a word for that, ye hypocrite.

      Report Post » proudinfidel54  
  • phillipwgirard
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:32pm

    Now what the heck are they doing wrong? leave em alone.

    Report Post » phillipwgirard  
  • This_Individual
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:30pm

    Freedom from religion has nothing to do with atheism. It is a socialist/marxist concept in that all devotion should be to the state. Atheism does not have an inherent belief in proslytizing and it certainly has nothing to do with policy. A socialist/marxist paradigm would hold such a beleif. So let’s not break out the pitchfoks and chase atheists into hell.

    Report Post »  
  • Dark Horse
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:29pm

    I vote we have al the girls praying dress up in birkas, and have the men find fake beards they can put on and turbans, then maybe they will be able to pray at the flagpole.

    Report Post » Dark Horse  
    • American Soldier (Separated)
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:50pm

      I always find it funny when people crack this joke. The only reason that hasn’t been done (by real muslims) is because they’d never consider going to a public school to gather everyone to pray at the flag pole. If they did, I guarantee you myself (as an Agnostic) and fellow atheists would fight that too. You make up this fake scenario as if we‘d be fine with Islam practicing in public schools but you know it’s not true. It’s the simple fact that only Christians, here in America, that are trying to put prayers in public school because they think they can get away with it. The muslim isn’t stupid enough to even try it.

      But remember, if you set this precedent, what will happen if your town gets a large muslim community? What if the principle is a muslim? Well now instead of Christian prayer, they‘ll say it’ll be a muslim prayer and for everyone to bring out the rugs. Once you allow it to happen, even if it benefits you today, you open up the ability for other groups to do it in the future. Think of the future guys, not just the here and now. You give government the power for something that may be useful to you today but will be turned against you tomorrow.

      Report Post » American Soldier (Separated)  
    • roostercogburn
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:29pm

      Actually they all ready have in many public schools, did you miss that, the public schools in several areas across the country were busy building mulsim prayer rooms in the school’s so they could go and do their prayers 15 or 20 times a day.
      For progressive’s religion is bowing to the state, the state is replaces god, think back, Hitler, Stalin, bow to the state, Obama can’t wait until we all bow to him, I hope he doesn’t hold his breath for me to bow to him..Or maybe I do hope he tries..

      Report Post » roostercogburn  
    • rangerp
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:45pm

      American Soldier (Separated)

      Initially, America had prayer in the public schools. In the days of the fore fathers, the most common text book was the King James 1611 Bible. Find one time any of the fore fathers ever wrote of a need to remove prayer or Bible from school. You will not find it, because it does not exist.

      Up into the 60s, Public Schools had preyer and Bible.

      You will notice that back then, there was no such thing as school shootings, or much of the other heathen behavior that goes on now. Once the Bible and prayer was removed, children were instructed that they came from animals. this is when they began to act like animals.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Kevin Shepler
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:48pm

      Sorry American Soldier, but I work at a community college and Christain Prayer in mass is not allowed yet I see a few dozen Muslims facing east every morning facing east. I don’t mind truly. They are not bothering anyone, but the same tolerance is not practiced towards Christain Prayer.

      Report Post »  
    • CMDR6
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 11:42am

      @American Soldier (Separated)…..you demostrate one of the main problems we have today. From Large government decisions down to yours, too many have attempted to “if this, then that” (cause and effect). Our pea brains cannot see what WILL happen is these areas SO we have to do what is “right” today and deal with tomorrow….well tomorrow. BUT, if you have no clue what is “right”, or choose to determine that in your own mind, then we will have issues. Read the Bible front to back (yes really), then read the Declaration AND the Constituiton, and I beleive you will see the truth. But until someone reads all three, then their sense of contaxt is skewed and cannot carry any value.

      Report Post » CMDR6  
    • CMDR6
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 11:44am

      …..context……

      Report Post » CMDR6  
    • proudinfidel54
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 3:41pm

      Am Soldier (Separated) No the Muslims are not stupid enough to prey around a flagpole, they would rather go to a Catholic University and try to remove all the Christian artifacts. Not much difference between a Musilim and an atheist they both believe in nothing.

      Report Post » proudinfidel54  
  • CottonMPG
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:28pm

    Really to be honest athiests shouldn‘t even have rights since the One who gave us our inalienable self evident rights is the Creator that they don’t believe exists! If we accept their belief as valid then we don’t have any rights except the ones we humans made up and if we made them we can unmake them!

    Report Post » CottonMPG  
    • taksavillage
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:39pm

      WOW … Well said in few words. And arguably a legal foundation for your position.

      Report Post »  
    • garyM
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:48pm

      Those self evident inalienable rights spoken of by the founders gives a person the right to do what they want in their short life on earth and some things we do have consequences on earth and some them are for eternity. A person can sin for a season but without repentance, when they die or Jesus returns, they do not pass and go but experience God’s wrath which will send them to hell in paying for their own sins for eternity or the other option is to repent and let Jesus pay for ones sins and have life eternally in Heaven! You tell me which is the best choice! That’s the Gospel, we are all hell bound lest we repent and be saved. We don’t have to do anything to be hell bound, we are all born sinners! Everyone likes to talk about God‘s Love but no one likes the message about God’s wrath and both messages are in the Bible!

      Report Post »  
    • American Soldier (Separated)
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:53pm

      CREATOR. They could have said God. They could have said Our Lord. They could have said Our Heavenly Father, the Lord Jesus Christ. But they used the term Creator. Who’s my creator? Who knows?! My ancestors created me little by little, step by step, generation by generations while fighting for our freedoms. Or it could be that mother nature, or the natural order of things, created me. Hell it could have been space aliens that implanted humans on this planet, I don’t know. The point is, creator can mean anything to anyone, which is why they left it so general as it applies to everyone, not just Christians.

      Good day to you.

      Report Post » American Soldier (Separated)  
  • who_it_is
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:26pm

    I’m going out in the woods tonight and cutting a tree down just for the heck of it. In fact, every time I read something about a liberal trying to change the Constitution, I’m going to cut a tree down. Take that you liberal green losers.

    Report Post »  
  • jkilson
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:24pm

    “It is a violation of the United States Constitution for a teacher, school administrator or other school district employee to join in a prayer session during their work time,” … Says Who? Teachers, Administrators, and Employee‘s don’t check their 1st Amendment Rights at the door, they have the same freedoms as anyone else, to deny thier rights to free religious expression is itself a flagrant violation of the Constitution.

    Report Post »  
  • Dark Horse
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:23pm

    “Oh no… the Christains are praying at the flagpole! What are they going to do next?!?!? Bring a bible to school… I don’t believe in a God and I believe that prayers are meaning less yet I will hate people who pray because it has such an impact on the school.”

    Don’t you just hate how religously intolerent atheists are?

    Report Post » Dark Horse  
    • garyM
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:06pm

      Some liberal will quote a lie about Christians can‘t do this and Christians can’t do that and all the useful idiots repeat it like it’s constitutional truth. Christians can pray anywhere they want and there is nothing the devil, the athiest or anyone can do about it, sorry you lose devils!

      Report Post »  
  • TRONINTHEMORNING
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:23pm

    Some of you atheists will see the light; see God, know God, accept Christ. And when you do, no doubt you will be on your face asking forgiveness for such foolish behavior. The rest; well, hell.

    Report Post »  
  • Mimi47
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:19pm

    If atheists don’t like it, let them move to a different country! In God We Trust! God Bless America. If they don’t like it, leave!

    Report Post »  
    • American Soldier (Separated)
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:56pm

      I‘m sure many told the founding fathers to leave if they didn’t like the way the colonies we ran. Imagine the world today had they listened to fools like you.

      Report Post » American Soldier (Separated)  
  • CottonMPG
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:16pm

    The Bill of Rights states that we have the freedom of religion, free speech and freedom of the press, correct? I do know that the constitution says congress will make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Er…did I misquote it? It is from memory so perhaps it is religion not a religion. The meaning is pretty clear though I think. In other words if we want to pray on public property we can, and congress is not allowed to make any law making it illegal.

    Report Post » CottonMPG  
    • ErinLindsey
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:30pm

      I’m actually an atheist, but I see nothing wrong with praying on public property, or at a school. If someone wants to pray in a group with other people, why would anyone want to stop them from doing it?

      What these other atheists are doing is trying to prohibit the free exercise of other people who want to pray/follow their religion. What those atheists are doing is wrong. I have never understood the rabid hatred of other people just because they want to pray. We’re supposed to have Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom From Religion.

      Watching the way those other atheists trying to bully others in the name of being offended is making me wonder how those atheists were raised. Were they not taught any morals? You dont have to be religious to learn to be respectful of others and their beliefs.

      It’s like America is no longer the home of the free, but the home of the bullies and entitled speshul little snowflakes.

      Report Post » ErinLindsey  
    • momrules
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:06pm

      @Erinlindsay……You sound like a very reasonable person and a real American. I hope in these last days you change your mind about God but whether you do or not is your choice, we are given that freedom. Since I am a Christian I will pray for you and with your wonderful attitude I don’t think you will mind.

      Report Post »  
    • not2bherd
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:55pm

      @ erin

      Practicing morality without God is akin to standing without a backbone. I appreciate that you would stand for that which is right. I think you know Him better than you let on.

      Report Post »  
    • ErinLindsey
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:22pm

      You can have morals without believing in a deity. I was raised a Roman Catholic. I never really believed in a god tho. But, I know that you can be a good person without being religious.

      My parents taught me to be respectful of others and not to be a complete schmuck towards people just because they believe differently than I do.

      Report Post » ErinLindsey  
  • OlefromMN
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:16pm

    Can somebody get me a new copy of the Constitution? My copy must be one of dem dar old copies that does not show the freedom from religion clause. I would like one that shows the good and plenty clause as well.

    Report Post » OlefromMN  
    • CMDR6
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 11:57am

      @Olefrommn- when you get a copy, can you send one to me, because my copy says “general welfare” (the clause under which we have all been robbed!!) and I believe that when they send a check to an individual that constitutes “specific welfare”, so I guess they changed it from general to specific sometime after my copy was printed……thanks in advance!

      Report Post » CMDR6  
  • momrules
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:15pm

    Christians are being tested in these last days. Pastor Baker will need our prayers for strength as the wolves of Satan decend upon him. He is right, who would have ever thought that you could get into trouble for praying at the flag of America in America?
    God bless you Pastor and those that stand with you.

    Report Post »  
    • palerider54
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:41pm

      Amen Mom,

      Please, all who do believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, tonight as your getting into bed, stop for a minute and PRAY for Pastor Baker, that he will be strengthened and encouraged.

      There is tremendous POWER in PRAYER.

      The Bible says that the prayers of a righteous person are very powerful.

      Report Post »  
    • madasblazes
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 1:29pm

      Will do; already have :)

      Report Post »  
  • bellasbrat
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:15pm

    Bet if it were muslims, facing Mecca with their butts up in the air, nobody would be complaining!

    Report Post » bellasbrat  
    • Nick84
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:21pm

      I bet you would.

      Report Post »  
    • let us prey
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:29pm

      nick84
      An enemy invader must never be classified as a religion.

      Report Post » let us prey  
    • MinnTEA Mom
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:32pm

      Are you kidding? By now the School district would have already built them a designated prayer room! We couldn’t possibly expect them to pray outside in the elements!

      Report Post » MinnTEA Mom  
    • bikerr
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 9:58pm

      Bellasbrat—You would lose that bet!

      Report Post »  
  • vtxphantom
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:13pm

    The Constitution does not seperate church and state. It prohibits the government from creating a church as England did.

    Report Post »  
    • garyM
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:26pm

      Praying at the flag pole could hardly be described as created a government religion. Only one religion has been created the matters and that one was created by God (Jesus) and all others are false. American gives the lost the right to follow a false god if they choose, it also gives all the right to worship the one and only God!

      Report Post »  
    • ltb
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:45pm

      Well said. Our founding fathers used the Capitol Building for church services and they established public schools for the purpose of teaching children the Bible. Given those facts, I can’t even grasp the tortured logic that would lead someone to claim “…It is a violation of the United States Constitution for a teacher, school administrator or other school district employee to join in a prayer session during their work time.” It’s the same Constitution people, so if the founding fathers who wrote that Constitution prayed in public schools, it will continue to be okay to pray in public schools until America repeals the First Amendment. What is so difficult to understand about that?

      Report Post » ltb  
    • jeffile
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:16pm

      Yea, but that’s because no SC judge was there to explain to the founding fathers what they meant when they wrote the Constitution.

      Report Post »  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:40pm

      Absolutely irrelevant, all of what you just wrote.

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:06pm

      I usedtacouldbe a lawyer, you are all stupid, bible thumping, wife beating, sky god worshipping morons. I would love to have ridden in a car with Herb Cain. Bet you did not even notice I made fun Herman Cain and Sarah Palin at the same time. I am a legend in my own mind.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
    • Your Sensie
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:19pm

      I am at once the alpha and omega.

      Report Post » Your Sensie  
    • 2gether
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 8:34am

      You are right. The federal government may not impose a “state” religion on its people. The right to worship is an inalienable right from God. If you read the letter from the school you will see how the Constitutional quote was way off and if you read the letter from the attorney who claimed what the school was doing was illegal, you would have read that the group believes that the Constitution is the FIRST GODLESS governing doctrine ever! Seriously? The inalienable rights protected by our Constitution and Bill of Rights has so much God in it, you can only miss it if you are walking in darkness. It might behoove each of you who think that God plays no part in our government to look up EVERY SINGLE STATE Constitution BECAUSE IN EVERY ONE God or Creator is mentioned. We are far from a Godless nation although Lord knows many people are trying. Don’t be so blind as to make yourself ignorant. You may not believe in God but the historical facts are simply that, the facts.

      Report Post »  
  • AJAYW
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:11pm

    If it were a Muslim they would be putting out mates for them to kneel on.

    Report Post »  
    • Mimi24
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:18pm

      I know you mean mats for them to kneel on but mates is funnier.

      Report Post »  
  • ICANHANDLETHETRUTH
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:10pm

    d

    Report Post »  
  • Bible Quotin' Science Fearin' Conservative American
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:10pm

    If you want to have a Christian prayer on state land then you need to expect a prayer meeting for each religion in the school. Otherwise it’s bull. Stop thinking you’re special, christians.

    Report Post » Bible Quotin' Science Fearin' Conservative American  
    • kmichaels
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:35pm

      Retarded logic from the local liberal nitwitted lying troll that can’t even use a truthful label for himself. So, show me the law that requires equal time for every idea on every public ground.

      Report Post »  
    • godlovinmom
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:48pm

      unfortunately the schools already except all religions except christianity…don’t you know that?

      Report Post » godlovinmom  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:08pm

      “Stop thinking you’re special, christians.”

      as soon as you stop thinking you have any intelligence…

      truly you’re a legend in your own mind….

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:38pm

      Keep it brainy, Joe. Perhaps you should throw in “turd” . . .it’s been almost 15 minutes.
      (That’s your cue, Fido.)

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:09pm

      I am the turd burglar.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:16pm

      “Perhaps you should throw in “turd” . ”

      I wasn’t talking to you..I didn’t say SUUUEEEEEEE

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • Your Sensie
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:21pm

      I like the sound turd makes when you say it, but I prefer the taste of a turd.

      Report Post » Your Sensie  
  • ICANHANDLETHETRUTH
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:10pm

    Lighten up atheaists……… what are you so afraid of ????????? fraekin azz wipes !!!!!!!!

     
  • kmichaels
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:09pm

    There is an absolutely big fat nothing in the US constitution prohibiting religion on public time or public grounds or by public employees. NOTHING. Don’t let the liberals carry on the lie any longer. Stand up for your rights.

    Report Post »  
    • CMDR6
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 11:25am

      TRUE…it only states that CONGRESS cannot establish a religion, it never says, inplies nor infers that an individual principal that is living by principle cannot sanction prayer. Just because we have had WIMPS defending our constitution in the courts does not mean we have to alow it to continue to be perverted and twisted. WAKE UP…read the constitution for yourself. It is plain and easy to read.

      Report Post » CMDR6  
  • your sensei
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:09pm

    Keep it out of schools. simple. constitutional. you wanna change that, legislate. or sue. until then, troll for the young ones somewhere else you Christina freaks.

    Report Post » your sensei  
    • kmichaels
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:15pm

      Good old senseless passing on the typical liberal lie that it must be in the constitution. Do us a favor idiot coward, show us the exact wording that you find in the US constititution and explain it’s meaning. Care to take up the challenge you nitwitted troll?

      Report Post »  
    • Lordchamp
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:21pm

      keep it out why? The Constitution says absolutely NOTHING about no prayer ANYWHERE. I merely prohibits the government from establishing an religion. It gives us freedom FOR religion not freedom FROM religion. Freedom FROM religion is a personal choice that is NOT legislated constitutionally.

      Report Post »  
    • kaydeebeau
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:21pm

      Where exactly is that in the Constitution?. I have just re-read my copy and I don’t find that reference at all…I do see …or prohibit the free exercise there of….

      Report Post » kaydeebeau  
    • AJAYW
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:26pm

      @ your sensei
      You must be a hog breeding Muslim

      Report Post »  
    • turkey13
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:31pm

      When an atehist has their little Johnnie or Suzy shot and killed by someone elses kid that has never been to church or not taught about right or wrong, they squak the lodest. They scream about not enough cops at school and are the first to sue. Forty years ago when you said the pledge and a prayer over the intercom you never heard about Virgina Tech or a Columbine. Wev’e had to many kids that have never stepped into a church and a life is a joke.

      Report Post »  
    • let us prey
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:32pm

      your sensei
      A half-wit gave you a piece of his mind, and you held on to it.

      Report Post » let us prey  
    • Theodwulf
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:39pm

      You are the freak not them. The Constitution doesn’t say I cannot pray because it may offend you(because you are a freak).I am sorry that you are mad at God. I am sorry you didn’t get that Pony . I am sorry that even your ever shrinking circle of friends find you obnoxious. You are here as even the DailyKos wouldn’t have you.

      I find it amusing that the degenerate freaks of this country find it acceptable to talk about the joys of “Fisting” to pre-schoolers BUT find the mention of God or Country completeley unacceptable, unless of course it’s the Muslim God and the Country is Mexico. American Christians are always targets for the cowardly left.

      I find it amusing that the “Pro-science“ crowd contend that people can be born the ”wrong“ sex and same sex relations are ”normal” …I guess Biology isn’t a -Real- science as Nature isn’t politcialy correct..when does the antelope get to eat the Lion!?! These Mental giants believe in time travel and alternate dimentions and other pseudo science but a Creator…No! That couldn’t be valid as it may require the leftists to have some morals and ethics.

      Oh and your Animee avatar is sexist as it may cause a girl to feel inadequete (see leftist anti-barbi rantings ). You aren’t morally, ethicly or intellectually superior to your fellow citizens. I know you think you are , one can tell by your writings to date, that is how we know you are a complete fool.

      Report Post » Theodwulf  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:05pm

      “Keep it out of schools. simple”

      we need to keep your atheist faith out of schools…especially that racist atheist fairy tale of evolution….

      so tell us senseless, the ‘favoured races’ your bible talks about…

      On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life

      I know you don’t have the guts to answer…but its in the WHITE of your eyes…

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:07pm

      “one can tell by your writings to date, that is how we know you are a complete fool”

      its amazing how many people come to the same conclusion about lacking sense…

      but apparently he/she/it is a masochist…and enjoys being made a fool out of….

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:31pm

      Private school? Do whatever you want. You want to say a private prayer while at a public school? Go right ahead. You want a moment of silence to promote a private prayer? Sorry. You want to hold a prayer meeting at a public school? No way. You want to vocalize a denominational or nondenominational prayer, or ceremonial reading from the Bible at a flag pole? Nope. And it is legally irrelevant if the prayer or Bible reading is voluntary, or if students may be excused from the activity or classroom during the prayer. Don’t like it? Change the laws. Until then, you wanna brainwash your own kid, do it at home.

      Undeniable. Irrefutable. All American. That’s why I love this country so much, because it keeps religious fanatics from forcing narrow-minded bigotry into the lives of the more evolved population.

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • Therightsofbilly
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:45pm

      @SENSELESS

      More evolved?

      So you have not totally evolved yet?

      Still got a bit of that monkey running around inside you?

      Which part?

      Take you time.

      Is it the hairy legs?

      Report Post » Therightsofbilly  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:59pm

      Bites of Willie . . . You are 100% right on all of that. New feeling for ya. You like it?

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • Therightsofbilly
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:21pm

      @SENSEOFENTITLEMENT

      No, nothing new here, quite used to it in fact.

      Keep studying, and you too can achieve that feeling.

      The part about the hairy legs was easy. All liberal female bodied people have hairy legs.

      Report Post » Therightsofbilly  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:08pm

      Keep your christianity out of our marxist brainwashing centers.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:12pm

      “. That’s why I love this country so much, because it keeps religious fanatics from forcing narrow-minded bigotry into the lives of the more evolved population.”

      more evolved…hmmmm…where have I heard that before??

      Watson is credited with discovering the double helix along with Maurice Wilkins and Francis Crick in 1962.
      In the newspaper interview, he said there was no reason to think that races which had grown up in separate geographical locations should have evolved identically. He went on to say that although he hoped everyone was equal, “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.

      yeah progressive evolutionary atheist racism…..did you iron your white sheets today?

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:13pm

      “Keep your christianity out of our marxist brainwashing centers.”

      bingo! you are much more intelligent, and much better lookin, than that wanna-be racist fascist liberal loser who wishes they could be you!

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • Your Sensie
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:26pm

      Mother Jones is my god.

      Report Post » Your Sensie  
  • @leftfighter
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:09pm

    We’ve had Pray at the Pole in my area for literally 15 years or more.

    The answer here is simple: Pray louder and for more people. Especially those who would deny your right to practice your religion wherever and whenever you want to, including on government property.

    Report Post » @leftfighter  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:10pm

      Pray at the Pole. Hmm. Funny, we were big on Study at the Library.

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • kmichaels
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:16pm

      [your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:10pm
      Pray at the Pole. Hmm. Funny, we were big on Study at the Library.]

      We heard that you were big on drugs in the restrooms.

      Report Post »  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:20pm

      I agree, folks of all different faiths should show support for the freedom to practice as they please.
      We keep our prayers & rituals confined to our home, but I would certainly defend the right for anyone
      to pray where and when they please.

      Report Post »  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:38pm

      Not My Sensei, If they choose to pray at the pole it’s their business and their right as individuals to practice as they please. If it were private property, it would be another story.

      Report Post »  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:35pm

      Kmichaels . . . drugs in the bathroom . . . .yes, that too . . . I was big on that. Maybe you should have done more of that, you wouldn’t be so repressed and uptight.

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:39pm

      This Individual . . . Funny how you have that EXACTLY backwards.

      TEA

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • Mimi24
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:32pm

      @Yoursensei. We can see how well that worked out for you, so they should continue praying at the pole or anywhere they feel like as long as it’s not your personal property. We all pay taxes that fund public schools. That’s not your flagpole. And why does it bother you so much?

      Report Post »  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:12pm

      I love drugs, they expand my already stupendous brain power.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:13pm

      I kneeled at a pole in the library when I was in school.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
    • Your Sensie
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:30pm

      I also kneeled at a pole in the mens room.

      Report Post » Your Sensie  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 10, 2011 at 10:53am

      YOUR TWIT – ” I also kneeled at a pole in the mens room.” You need a new pimp.

      Report Post »  
  • Maxim Crux
    Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:07pm

    The solution is to get rid of the department of education and put it in private hands

    Report Post »  
    • your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:12pm

      Or better yet, let’s just burn al the science books. He’s coming any day now anyway.

      Report Post » your sensei  
    • @leftfighter
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:12pm

      …that too… :-)

      Report Post » @leftfighter  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:12pm

      I’ll drink to that!

      Report Post »  
    • AJAYW
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:12pm

      Right on

      Report Post »  
    • techengineer11
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:14pm

      “I never thought I’d ever see that happen in America,” Pastor Baker told Fox News. “Maybe in North Korea or China or Russia – but not America.”

      http://radio.foxnews.com//toddstarnes/daily-dispatch/florida-pastor-to-defy-prayer-ban.html

      If the Pastor only knew that the grandchildren of the monsters that took over Russia last century were now reigning in America he would understand… He’d also probably find it enlightening to know that today with the monsters not reigning in Russia that they openly encourage Bible classes in their schools and promote the spreading of Christianity at the highest levels of Gov’t because they know that at a minimum that it is good for society. But what about America today? Most understand the very strong influence which Christianity had on our founding but why is so frowned upon today??? Is it the mean ole bad boy “Progressives”?? Were they “progressives” that took over in Russian in 1917?

      Report Post » techengineer11  
    • encinom
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:15pm

      The solution is to arrest the pastor for trespass.

      Report Post »  
    • kmichaels
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:18pm

      [your sensei
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:12pm
      Or better yet, let’s just burn al the science books. He’s coming any day now anyway.]

      Truth, whether found in science books or religious books works well regardless of the source. Unfortunately for you, one rarely thinks of liberals as the source of any significant truth.

      Report Post »  
    • Dougral Supports Israel
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:19pm

      Agreed, the Federal government shouldn’t be involved in education at all. Since it is not mentioned in the Constitution as a Federal power it is reserved to the states or the people.

      Report Post »  
    • kmichaels
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:22pm

      Senseless is unaware of the fact that many of the greatest medical schools, steep in science, are PRIVATE schools. John Hopkins for example.

      Report Post »  
    • kmichaels
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:31pm

      [encinom
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:15pm
      The solution is to arrest the pastor for trespass.]

      How about we arrest you for liberalism. It is just as illegal as praying on school property. After all, in the same way that there is a clause in the constitution prohibiting religion on public property there is a clause in the US constitution prohibiting liberalism on public grounds.

      Report Post »  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:41pm

      Not a sensei, how’s that picture of Marx over your toilet doing? Their religious beliefs are theirs to abide by. If it’s not your thing, just grow up & move on.

      Report Post »  
    • This_Individual
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 6:43pm

      ENCINOM., It’s not a private school.

      Report Post »  
    • encinom
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 7:27pm

      The pastor is an unwelcomed pest, trespassing on public property, he is no different than a flasher on the school grounds. He has no business with the school and should be arrested and dragged away.

       
    • Chet Hempstead
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 8:14pm

      90% of our nation’s schoolchildren attend public schools, far more than private institutions could possibly absorb. Every state constitution I have ever seen recognizes education as a right of the people and a duty of the state. If you think it would ever be possible to introduce constitutional amendments ending public education and see them pass, you are seriously not living in the real world.

      Report Post »  
    • joe1234
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:08pm

      “The pastor is an unwelcomed pest, trespassing on public property, he is no different than a flasher on the school grounds. He has no business with the school and should be arrested and dragged away.”

      did you starch your brown shirt and polish your jackboots today you fascist piece of trash?

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • YUOR SENSIE
      Posted on November 9, 2011 at 10:15pm

      Us Nazis love burning books.

      Report Post » YUOR SENSIE  
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