Atheists Sue Feds Over ‘Unconstitutional’ Tax Benefits for Christian Ministers
- Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:34am by
Billy Hallowell
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The atheistic Freedom From Religion Foundation is picking a new battle — this time over the housing exemptions that Christian ministers are afforded by the federal government.
The organization, which has become known for taking strong stances to reinforce the “separation of church and state,” has joined three of its officers in suing Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman.
According to these non-believers, the exemption that is unique to clergy is unconstitutional as, in their view, it violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment. The lawsuit, which was filed in federal court in Madison, Wisconsin, alleges that millions of dollars goes untaxed due to these exemptions. JSOnline has more:
The ministers‘ allowance isn’t just for rent or mortgage payments. Payment for everything from closing costs to home furnishings to utilities and lawn maintenance qualifies for exemption.
Under current IRS law, preachers are paid in tax-free dollars. They are able to deduct mortgage interest and property tax payments and their allowances are not treated as typical taxable income. The laws governing these exemptions were passed back in 1954.
While FFRF stands firmly against the general notion of favorability that these individuals are allotted in the tax code, there are other issues at play. These individuals are also uncomfortable with the fact that the IRS must investigate and delve deeply into each individual’s beliefs and religious practices to ensure they qualify for the tax exemptions.
Since applying to receive minister exemptions is complex, opponents claim that it creates “excessive entanglement” between church and state — something foundations like Freedom From Religion refuse to tolerate. The Christian Post provides more context regarding why these exemptions are upsetting to atheists:
Many churches allot their ministers a housing allowance as part of their overall compensation package. Opponents of the monetary perk, like FFRF, claim nonbelieving directors should receive the same benefit.
What makes the housing allowance even more offensive to FFRF is that housing payments for ministers preaching the Gospel also are exempt from most states’ income tax.
A portion of the lawsuit reads:
Section 107 has the effect of fostering governmental entanglement with religion, precisely in order to limit the tax break provided by §107 to religious clergy; the IRS must make complex, intrusive and subjective inquiries into religious matters when applying §107 in order to limit its preferential scope to ministers of the gospel.
Section 107, both on its face and as administered by the defendants Geithner and Shulman, violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and therefore the defendants should be enjoined from any further allowance of such tax benefits exclusively to ministers of the gospel.
This is not the first time the group has attempted to tackle this issue. The Post reports that the group voluntarily dismissed a similar lawsuit back in June based out in Sacramento, California.
John Witte, director of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University in Atlanta, doesn’t think the case is going to go very far.
“This is a pretty easy case,” he said. “I think the Supreme Court has made it clear that tax exemption cases are for the legislature, not for the courts, to decide.”
(h/t JSOnline.com)
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Comments (143)
ilovethiscountry
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:46amI am a Christian and think that the clergy should be taxed the same as everyone else. It mades it difficult for the clergy to empathize with people that they preach to if they don’t live by the same rules. Granted that the state is not establishing religion, but is furthering it.
efialtis
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 2:07pmI guess that all depends on if you have a “professional” or a “lay” clergy.
Report Post »georgiavietvet
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:45amwhy can’t these idiots just have their own beliefs and live and let live? the liberals always seem to think that they have the right to push their beliefs and opinions onto the rest of us who dont believe as they do. the aethiests and the homosexuals are the two groups who think that they can make people accept their ways by forcing their point of view down our throats. no pun intended. they would be better off to live their own lives and let the rest of us live ours without their interference……………………..
Report Post »Red1492
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:49amI know plenty of atheists and homosexuals who aren’t activists and just want to get on with their lives. The same can be said of christians shoving their beliefs down people’s throats.
Report Post »Servant Of YHVH
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:32amI too know people that are atheists and homosexuals that just want to quietly live their lives without trying to force it down peoples throats and force everyone to live they way they want. However, they are definitely a minority within those groups. Also, I know “christians” that try to force their beliefs down peoples throats and unfortunately there are quite a few of them. The problem with them is that they do not know or understand God or Jesus, and they have way too many people teaching them their own beliefs instead of teaching them factually from the Bible. They do not know that what they are doing is against God‘s Word and they haven’t tried to find out what God says on their own. These people are not truly part of the Bible following Christians because we do not try to force anything on anyone, we just offer them the truth and the opportunity to check it out and if they don’t then that is their choice. Our responsibility is to share the Word with people, not force it down their throats. After we tell them about it then our responsibility is done and the responsibilit then lies on the hearer as to what he/she decides they want to do or accept.
Report Post »Servant Of YHVH
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:41am@georgiavietvet
Report Post »First, thank you for your service. secondly, it would be a great miracle if they would keep their ignorance out of other peoples’ lives. What gets me, is that a lot of these “self proclaimed atheists” are people with the most education, yet they show the lowest level of intelligence that I have ever seen. They have absolutely NO idea of what is or isn’t constitutional and in fact even though they have a lot of “book learning” they claim to follow something that is totally and completely illogical and makes no factual sense at all. They start thinking that they are so educated that it makes them to “smart” to fall for anything like religion and believe that because they are so smart that they are greater than God or anything outside of themselves. It doesn’t matter that there is no logic nor intelligent facts that back them up. I guess they get to believing that they are so smart that the fact change to what they believe because they are so “smart”. On a side note, I know a lot of people with plenty of higher education that does not feel or believe that way because they have been grounded with facts and truth that help keep them from “dumbing down”.
Bill Rowland
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:46amRed 1492 – at least rhe christians I have dealt with are calm and reasonable, They don’t sue you to make you think like them.
OMG – Psalm 109:8
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:56am@Bill
Oh hi, The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes (aka, The Scopes Monkey Trial) ;-) There’s a long and colorful history of people using the courts to enforce their belief system… or their non-belief system, as the case may be in this situation.
Report Post »Hiswill
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:19pmWhen a person asks Jesus to come into their lives and asks forgiveness of their sins, one of their missions is to be a disciple for God. To do as Jesus did in his time. This includes spreading the good news of the kingdom of God to unbelievers.
Report Post »If I had a cure for cancer and didn’t share it with anyone, it would be a terrible injustice to mankind. The same goes for sharing the word of God. Accepting Him will give you internal life and we want to share that with all people. Christians can only share the news with you, whether you accept it or not is up to you.
jkendal
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 2:43pm“The same can be said of christians shoving their beliefs down people’s throats.”
Name one instance where Christians are trying to force you to believe something.
Report Post »casseopea42
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 2:54pmAnyone who is suprized at this is naive. As man is a fallen creature the natural tendencies are to fight against God and therefore religion. They will activly try to make God go away because God by his very nature sees everything a sinner does. That doesn’t sit well with any sinner. As R.C. Sproul said to a group of athiests. He didn‘t think they didn’t know God existsed, they know, they just hate him.
Report Post »PJRN
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 3:19pmThis is a simple case of getting the government out of giving special treatment to religious groups. By allowing them tax-exempt status, the govt is supporting religions and standing behind them with its full weight of law. Oh yeah, law. That’s the stickler, isn’t it, you religious folk?
Report Post »The govt needs to get out of the religion business.
And yes, I’m non-theist (formerly a deacon in a mainstream Christian church).
Solzhenitsin
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 5:04pmChristian activists generally are trying to prevent or are responding to attacks on their belief systems, which you call “shoving their beliefs down people’s throats.” If anyone has done the latter, it is the johnny-come-latelys of this society pushing their immorality down other people’s throats and demanding they pay for it with tax money.
Report Post »DrFrost
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 5:21pm@RED1492
Every group has their outspoken activists. If you really want to judge the group as a whole, however, I think you need to look at how the typical member behaves. According to recent surveys 76% of american’s identify themselves as christians (as high as 86% in some areas of the US). Are 7 out of every 10 people you meet shoving christian beliefs down your throat?
Report Post »Bible Quotin' Science Fearin' Conservative American
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 6:32pmJkendal, really?
You MUST be a christian because you’re dumber than a rock.
Report Post »im.thatoneguy
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 12:22am“why can’t these idiots just have their own beliefs and live and let live?”
So Christians should pay less taxes than Atheists? You’re creating an economic incentive by taxing one religious group higher than another.
What if we gave a special tax rebate to all self professed atheists? Would you similarly object to a lawsuit to remove that tax break? Or would you just let atheists live and let live (with their tax break)? What if we passed a law that said all Atheists were no longer subject to income tax. You would be ok with that?
Personally I don’t believe the IRS should charge people of different beliefs different tax rates. What if we only gave a tax break to Liberal activists but not conservative activists? Would you just “live and let live”?
It’s always seems to be “Live and Let Live” right up until the other guy is the one getting the benefit.
As to “what Christians have ever imposed their beliefs?”
Report Post »– Defense of “Marriage” is defending a very modern Judeo-Christian view of marriage. There is no intrinsic definition of marriage in the universe that excludes homosexuals.
– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law
– I have done Door to Door ministry for the church. I have never done door to door ministry as an Atheist, nor have I ever had an Atheist come to my door.
– 0% of our legislature is Atheist. 10%+ of the population is Atheists. Legislation is bound to have a bias towards the religious beliefs of the repr
Chuck Stein
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 1:02am@ PJRN
Report Post »The First Amendment protects the freedom of religion (not freedom FROM religion). By not taxing religious entities, the government does not become entangled in religion. It is actually not “supporting” religion — it is not “burdening” religion, thus steering clear of a violation of the First Amendment. If you want a pro-atheist constitution, then you can look to the constitution of the former Soviet Union. I like America’s better.
bhscpa
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 11:46amHey Red1492 get your head out of your atheistic, homosexual a**!
Report Post »billwill
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:34amThe First Amendment only guarantees freedom of speech. It does not establish separation of church and state. The ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE separate’s church from state. Meaning CONGRESS can not pass law’s for/against any religion. Taxes are imposed by congress. Whether they be tax exempt or otherwise.
Report Post »Watcher438
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:59amThese idiots want Church separate from state. Now they want Church to be enough of the state to pay taxes. Churches aren’t supposed to lobby or have any political affilliation, so they lose their voice at state. Looks like a trade off. I will pay all of my Churches taxes, if you also let me lobby for them and make political commercials. Starting with telling people that if they are Christian, they should never vote for anyone who is pro-choice (pro-abortion).
Report Post »turkey13
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:06amI think they will win because what will the Supreme court stand on. I go to one cup C.O.C. and we do not pay our weekly speakers – 4 different each month. If a speaker is good enough he will go on the circuit abnd collect fgron $2500.00 to $3500.00 for a 1 week meeting. This way you find out who id dedicated and who isn’t.
Report Post »turkey13
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:10amForgot to mention we do not have a tax exempt bank account or interest paying acct. We pay income taxes each year and just payed off our 7 year old mortage. We will now help other 1 cup C.O.C. build new buildings or help with money problems.
Report Post »YouAreNowScience
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 6:13pmBill, the Establishment Clause is part of the First Amendment. In fact, it’s the very first part of the First Amendment.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Report Post »Docroxall
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:27amThese opportunists are merely taking the progressive attack on God and faith to its logical end. When the supreme court of this land, decided that prayer in schools, and “other” religious activities were unconstitutional, the slippery slope was stepped upon. We all know that the freedom of religion clause in the Constitution is there to keep a “Church of the United States” from being formed, like the Church of England was, and was used to manipulate Christians to do the government’s bidding, from the pulpit. They truly DO want us to implement “freedom from religion”…because its mere presence offends them. I say…what the author says…if you don’t want religion in your life, or faith, ignore it. But don’t oppress those that do.
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:30amExactly,
Report Post »The athiest have pushed too much for far too long using the 1st amendment Religious leader could argue that the 1st amendment say Congress(the government) shall make no law respecting the establish of religion they use that to remove prayers from schools and religious icons from state and federal lands The other have of that clause says it can’t prohibit religion as well Thsi argument can be used to allow the people of an area the re-establish prayers in schools and religious icons on public land. No where does the Constitution every say there’s a seperation of church and state it put the Power in the hands of the people not the government.
Sensil
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 10:38am“We all know that the freedom of religion clause in the Constitution is there to keep a “Church of the United States” from being formed, like the Church of England was, and was used to manipulate Christians to do the government’s bidding, from the pulpit.” Well, you may know that, but that’s not how the Supreme Court has decided things. And that’s how the laws in this country work. The founders were pretty smart folks, and they understood that people would have different views of what the Constitution means in practice, so in that Constitution they set up the Supreme Court to decide which of those differing views should prevail.
Report Post »We, as American citizens, don’t get to pick and choose which bits of the law we comply with or agree with – it’s up to all of us to defend the Constitution and the laws of the land. And that includes the Establishment Clause – not as you interpret it, but as it’s constitutionally interpreted by the Court the founding fathers set up for exactly that purpose. Were they wrong to do that? I don’t think so….
They SMEAR what they FEAR
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:26amOne important bit of information is not addressed here…clergy can only claim up to 50% of their annual income as tax free
Report Post »turkey13
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:53amThis may be true but some of the mega churches are owned by the preacher and the church may take in 4 million $$$ and pay no taxes. Obama is going to tap this unlimited bank account and get reelected and pay off the national debt. Can you imagine what the Catholic churc will be paying to operate in the USA.
Report Post »Oldphoto678
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:05amOnly? Wish I could only pay tsxes on 50% of what I make.
Report Post »SHvnDave
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:25amAs a Christian, I am fully supporting the position taken in the lawsuit!
It is time to cease all governmental activities (Income tax, Property Tax, etc) that respect one religion over another. income, property, and sales from religious organizations should be taxed in the same manner as any other organization. Remember – If the government has the ability to reduce tax, they also have the ability to increase tax burden.
Plus, if an IRS agent has the ability to ask even one question to determine qualification, they have the ability to discriminate for or against a religion.
And my real reason – the more people and organizations that pay taxes rather than benefit from taxes, the more support there will be to cut spending, cut spending, cut taxes, and then cut spending!
Report Post »They SMEAR what they FEAR
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:30amReally!? Thats the problem here right…its not the thousand other loopholes in the tax code system correct? Like taxing clergy is going to fix anything….like a drop in the ocean. Dude, get off the kool-aid. Its an all out attack on the Judeo-Christian foundation of this country.
Report Post »SHvnDave
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:01am@‘smear’
Did you even read past the first line?
OBTW… you have no clue what true attacks on Christianity will be like
Report Post »Pull-ups
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:28amI agree that tax exempt status should be pulled from churches…this will fundamentally change the political and social fabric of this nation. Without the Government threat of pulling a churches tax exempt status a Preacher or congregation can say and act on what they want and address real issues that affect social and political situations that need to be addressed. These people should be careful of what they wish for…
Report Post »PJRN
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 3:24pmSHVN Dave,
Report Post »Finally, a voice of intelligence from the Christian side!
Thank you.
They SMEAR what they FEAR
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:01pmOk, are you saying that there should be no 501c3 tax exempt or just no clergy that are tax exempt? About your real reason…there are plenty of tax payers, its just that most of them evade paying. In most churches, clergy income is strictly from 501c3 donations…I’m surprised they pay they pay taxes at all.
Report Post »and OBTW, I know exactly whats coming at me and my family, I’m rooted and ready. I’m not afraid to speak my mind.
SHvnDave
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:06pm@TSWTF
What I am saying is we should devide the budgeted spending for the fiscal year by the Gross domestic product. All spending included – wars SS, food stamps, everything. This would yeild a percentage number – probably currently somewhere around 20-25%. then for the next year, every dollar of income you earn – everyone from the kid that makes $200 to the baron that makes $2B would just send that percentage to Washington. Make $30,000, pay $6,000
Now, if they(Govt) are already spending 20% of every dollar you make, and they want to … do anything – send a man to Mars, or takeover health care, and you know that next year, you will have to spend 28% instead of your current 20% – do you think we would allow them to do that? If you raise your taxes 1%, we can give it to a friend to wash through a solar energy company. That new regulation that will force 0.1% of the workers out of their job will only cost you 0.2% additional taxes.
As it is now, do you think that the 47% of the population that pay no income taxes care one bit that the current administration gave a half Billion to a failing solar energy company.
Report Post »dpselfe
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:23amThe “Establishment Clause” is the most ridiculous argument against this situation. Congress has not made a law which “establishes” one religion over another. The tax break is available to anyone who qualifies, just like any other tax break. Anyone can practice any religion they choose (as COngress has made no law prohibiting the free exercise therof), and if they are a minister/preacher/priest, enjoy the benefit of tax free allowances. I think the atheists are jealous, and should simply establish their own church, and become preachers in it, and enjoy the same benefit.
What they really want is for all religion to be banned, but they know if they come out and say it, that they lose.
Don’t Muslim clerics qualify for this as well? Why not go after them? Friggin cowards!
Report Post »kryss187
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:22am“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
Wouldn’t laws giving tax exemption fall under this? Just saying. :-D
Report Post »n2sooners
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:15pm“or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
Wouldn’t taxing the practice of religion fall under this?
Report Post »Better Dead Than Red
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 3:20pmN2,
no.
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:20amLibs and atheists make my hair hurt.
Report Post »db321
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:46amThis Administration sure has allowed the wackos to come out – they are cawing out from under rocks. Another 4 more years and we wont know which way is up or down.
Report Post »Bill Rowland
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:54amNotice that they are no suing to prevent Arab students from praying – some schools have had to set up special prayer rooms so that the Muslim students can pray.
Makes you wonder what the true aim is.
OMG – Psalm 109:8
Report Post »TomFerrari
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:15amSocialists believe money is merely a national resource. THEIRS to use as THEY see fit.
As such, they see non-taxation, a tax deduction, or even a decrease in taxation, as AN EXPENSE to the government. They honestly believe it is all their money to do with as they please.
Listen to obama’s own words…
“Taxes” are “revenues”
Tax decuctions are “expenses”
IN HIS OWN WORDS.
obama and his socialist democrat buddies honestly believe our money is THEIRS to throw around to whomever they choose – coincidentally, it lands in the laps of obama’s largest campaign donors.
.
.
.
So, it is NO surprise that they would view the absence of taxes on churches as being an “expense” to them. After all, they aren’t getting “THEIR MONEY” from those evil clergymen.
Then, in a completely hypocritical stance, they want to shout, “separation of Church and state.”
(only when it is convenient for THEIR purposes)
We have a LOT of work to do folks !
The restoration of America STARTS on Jan 21, 2013.
Report Post ».
.
.
Sensil
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 10:45amI can only assume that if the government passed a law that says that people who have the first name Natasha have to pay no income tax, while the rest of us have to pay the same rates as we do now, you would be supporting the “Natasha exemption” on the basis that it‘s socialist to suggest the government shouldn’t pick favorites? If I have to pay taxes, so should the clergy. This is simple stuff.
Report Post »ares338
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:01amNot an atheist here or a religionist. I think everyone should be taxed the same.
Report Post »They SMEAR what they FEAR
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:24amThen what are you? You say nothing when you don’t stand for something. Pick a side
Report Post »Red1492
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:41amI agree ARES338. Tax everyone the same – no special privilege for anyone.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:42am@Smear
He picked a position; as for “sides,” religionist and atheist are not the only ones. Agnostic, for example, would fit the “supernatural belief” criteria; spiritual, for another.
Report Post »Ironbalut
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:42pmI agree, everyone should be taxed the same.
Report Post »JLGunner
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:59amThe seperation of church and state is a bogus argument that everyone has just accepted.
Report Post »GENEPAGLIARI
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:05amAMEN, sir.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:11amRoger that, and we are in the midst of being convinced that Warren Buffet’s secretary pays higher income taxes than her boss. A lot of American’s have been reduced to getting all their information from headlines and sound bites. It’s pathetic.
Report Post »jcase16
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:24amI agree that Minister’s should not receive special tax benefits. Some of these guys make bank and then also get to exempt themselves from social security and get other tax exemptions. This is just as bad as the gov officials saying that they can l.ive by different rules than the public in my mind.
Report Post »cessna152
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:24amNot everyone… only the dopes stealing from this country.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:51amIt’s not “just accepted;” it’s a Supreme Court ruling on the matter. The way our government works, that means that the Constitution is interpreted as meaning there is indeed a separation of church and state.
Checks and balances and all that. The Supreme Court has held the power of judicial review for over 200 years and is the final arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution.
Report Post »ranchoazulmt
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:07pm@ Locked
““There is no separation of church and state.”
Yes there is, as per the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Constitution. You might not -agree- with said interpretation, but the SCotUS is the ultimate arbiter of legal issues in the country and the precedent it has said includes the exact wording of “separation of church and state.””
The SC is not the final arbitrator. They should decide based on Constitutional law versus Case law. The progs got this monstrousity to pass.
The people are the final arbitration ni a contitutional republic such as ours. Not the SC.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:19pm@Ranch
“The SC is not the final arbitrator.”
Yes, it is. You may not agree with it, but that’s how our government has operated for hundreds of years.
Report Post »GENEPAGLIARI
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:59amNowhere in our Constitution does it talk about “separation of church and state.” Thomas Jefferson is one of the founders who talked about it, however. His thinking was to prevent a government sponsored religion like the Church of England which the pilgrims and other colonists had come here to escape.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:45amNowhere in our Constitution does it talk about “separation of church and state.”
… but the establishment clause has been interpreted to mean it exists. As far as legal system is concerned, a separation of church and state does exist.
It won’t be strong enough reasoning to win this lawsuit though.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:56amThe headline is a bit misleading because the tax break is not just for Christian ministers. Nevertheless, get over yourselves atheists. Are you really that concerned about tax loopholes? I doubt it.
Report Post »loriann12
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:11amOnly because it doesn’t apply to them. Well, start an Atheist church, become the minister of that and live like they do.
Report Post »matt708
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:52amwow that’s really going to screw al sharpton with al the illegal deductions he takes
Report Post »db321
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:49amI havn’t heard anything in the past few day from the Hypocritical Rev Sharpton – normally he lets his mouth overrun his rear end.
Report Post »Son_of_Liberty
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:49am“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” Patrick Henry
3%
Report Post »CommonSenseis Missing
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:57amyou are correct re: Levis. However Blaze = Beck. Nothing that generates revenue will be pulled. Count on it.
Pawhuska
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:48amchurches in this country have always been exempt! the problem was started with the 501c3 that began to set conditions for exemption. the IRS even freely admits that the 501c3 status is NOT required for churches to be exempt!! the power to tax is the power to destroy!! If churches are taxed they will be destroyed as institutions and we will lose the public moral compass that the church brings to the puplic forum. When churches submitt to 501c3 status (which is not required) they then become subject to the govt and the govt becomes the supreme voice i.e. God! That has nutered many churches from speaking the truth on many issues for fear of losing tax exemption! This is an unfounded fear! We are not China yet! Pray that the church does not yield to the permission of the state or the evil in the world will prevail!
Report Post »Pawhuska
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:56ambesides the money that the church and the minister recieves has already been taxed this is just a form of double taxation! or system is so corrupt we tax the exchange of money rather than the govt charging fees for services rendered! It is wrong fo the govt to tax income or profit that is why the founders made income tax unconstitutional! Often in the exchange you are the loser especially in labor but you are taxed anyway! The monster of govt (a necessary evil in many ways) is simplly too big! People support their church willingly! How much would the govt get if they operated by freewill offerings!
Report Post »BernieKittyCat
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:49amI loathe atheists. Sorry to those common sense atheists on this site. I used to be agnostic until atheists proved the existence of God, to me anyways.
By the way, The Blaze may want to pull Levi ads from this website. Their reprehensible promotion of riots and violence prompted a strongly worded message from me and a vow never to purchase another product they sell. I’d hate to leave The Blaze over this but I will. The only power I have is in my pocketbook and I will use it. I don’t go quietly, either.
Rayblue
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:49amSo now they’re upset about taxes. Who else wants to tax us to an early afterlife ?
Report Post »One guess..
Yep. The atheists are holding hands with Brother Obama.
Can I have an Amen on that, brother ?
Link8on
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:48amThey could have just went after the entire income tax system.
0, to me, is a very easy number to understand.
TX, AK, WA, NV, TN, FL, NH, SD, TN, WY seem to get by as well as the other states on that 0 income tax rate. Their debts are likely lower too.
Report Post »proudpatriot77
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:47amThere is no separation of church and state. There is only a problem when government prevents the free practice of religion or establishes a state religion. As long as Atherists can keep on not believing, they should stop messing with other people’s religion. As far as tax right-offs, we should lower everyone’s overall taxes and get rid of all or most tax rightoffs.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:51am“There is no separation of church and state.”
Yes there is, as per the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Constitution. You might not -agree- with said interpretation, but the SCotUS is the ultimate arbiter of legal issues in the country and the precedent it has said includes the exact wording of “separation of church and state.”
Report Post »GENEPAGLIARI
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:04amThat, sir, is a supreme court decision and not part of the CONSTITUTION.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:11am“That, sir, is a supreme court decision and not part of the CONSTITUTION.”
1. Patriot never said anything about the Constitution. He said there’s no such thing as a separation of church and state. There obviously is; he (and likely you) just don’t agree with it. Doesn‘t mean it doesn’t exist.
Report Post »2. The SCotUS is the interpreter of the Constitution and has been since Marbury v. Madison; see judicial review and Article III of the Constitution. Again, you may not -agree- with that, but it’s the foundation of our laws here in the US and has been for over 200 years.
Luke21
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:30am@Locked:
you wrote:
“the SCotUS is the ultimate arbiter of legal issues in the country”
Just out of curiosity, where exactly in the Constitution is that stated?
Question: Can the SC enumerate to/grant themselves a power (i.e. the supreme power that supercedes all other power/law including the Constitution) that wasn’t in the Constitution in the first place?
Report Post »smokegray
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:58amthe separation of church and state did not mean separation of God and state.and which constitution are you referring to as the supreme courts interpretation of, the organic one? or the one after the forty first congress with the act of 1871. that turned our sovereign republic into a corporation and sold out our country to the international bankers and committed treason against the american people? and has since.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 10:08am@Luke
I already answered this: see the concept of judicial review based on Article III of the Constitution.
“The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”
As said, in Marbury V. Madison this was interpreted as meaning the SCotUS’s rulings supersede the other branches when it comes to interpretation of the Constitution. It’s part of the checks and balances system that has served our government for over 200 years.
Report Post »efialtis
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 2:27pmif we do a simple reading, it is actually a “separation of STATE from CHURCH”… The first amendment prevents the STATE from designating an “official” religion, it prevents the STATE from treating any religion with preference, it prevents the STATE from interfering with religious beliefs…
Report Post »But it DOES NOT prevent religion from being involved with the STATE…
It is only a one way street.
Then you have some very poor interpretations of what the separation should be… but those interpretations were, I believe, more politically “expedient”.
I believe, under the current belief of the “separation”, that the STATE is, more or less, prevented from taxing the CHURCH, lest it violate that separation.
People are religious (or not) and they are also citizens, but Churches are not citizens or “corporations”, they aren’t “people”… therefore they should be exempt from taxes.
This is, or course, only if the church doesn’t also have a “corporate” arm. I work for a church, I am also a “lay” clergy. I pay taxes, just like anyone else on my income from my job, but I don’t get paid for my services as a lay clergy. The division I work for pays taxes. The church, itself, does not pay taxes. This is correct and proper to keep that separation of church and state…
kickagrandma
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:46amAtheists ~~~ you are on your way to hell, folks, for all eternity. Helllllllooooo! Anybody home?
Apparently not.
So sad.
Report Post »PJRN
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 3:34pmObviously you missed one point of atheism: no hell. You think you’re scaring us? Here, scream and repent because I wave this nonexistent, man-created concept at you.
Report Post »Ummmm, no.
biohazard23
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:45amFor a group of people who care nothing about religion, they certainly care a lot about making a big stink for those who do.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:52amHardcore atheists have made non-religion their religious belief. It’s as bad as religious fundamentalism; the purpose is to spread their particular belief (or rather, non-belief) set.
Report Post »biohazard23
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:00amKinda like the environmentalists…..
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:18amKind of like any group with too much fervor and not enough sense. Blind faith in anything is just that – blind. If you can‘t see you’re bound to stumble around.
Report Post »PJRN
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 3:38pmRaising a stink, are we? And your forced prayers at publicly funded events are roses, right? The tax-exempt status of your religious organizations doesn’t reek of special interests either.
Report Post »Change the dialogue from Christian prayers to Muslim or Hindi and you may be able to glimpse our side of the debate.
pwatkins
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:45amBlaze, check out the oil rig explosion in Oklahoma and be the first to figure that one out. It is on msnbc and the comments on newsvine seem to be green energy oriented…lol. No one was reported injured, thank goodness.
These athiest sure have problems with things they don’t believe in.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:51amKnowledge of God begins in every mans heart, Atheist spend a great deal of time avoiding Him. The unbelieving culture today has a problem because there’s no basis for truth out there outside the word of god.
Boundry of good and evil runs through every human heart.
How do we overcome the world system? Jesus Christ is the victor. Believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God our creator. Believe what he has taught. Then you’ll believe that he will be victorious in the final analysis. If that faith isn’t present, you’ll be swept along with the world system.
Report Post »SpankDaMonkey
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:43am.
“Forgive Them”………..
I will but can I at least kick’em where you split them first? PLEASE, Pretty Please……..
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:39amActually these morons are wrong on it beign a matter of church and state; knowing several pastors and faith leaders who have gone this route with the IRS, the matter is they are very thorough, and the standards are very high to meet indeed — and the matter is it gets done for EACH and EVERY set of RELIGIOUS FAITH carried out that applies for the exemption.
So if they hold the same standards, across the board for ALL faith leaders, then there is no problem with the seperation of church and state.
Report Post »http://artinphoenix.com/gallery/grimm (cat folk gallery)
Locked
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:53amThis is exactly true. It seems more likely to be a case for extra publicity than one hoping for a favorable outcome.
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