Atheists Threaten to Sue Over Christian Cross in OH City Logo (But Will Officials Fight Back?)
- Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:59pm by
Billy Hallowell
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The logo at the center of the dispute (Image Credit: Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register)
The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) has been somewhat quieter than normal these past few months. Chalk it up to a summer slump, vacation schedules or a lack of religious targets to focus upon, but the silence has been notable.
However, in recent days, the atheistic non-profit is back to its regular antics. The group’s new target is Steubenville, Ohio, where atheist leaders are demanding that a religious image present on the city’s official logo be removed.
Last month, officials agreed to alter the logo after the FFRF complained and threatened legal action over the inclusion of the cross and the silhouette of the Christ the King Chapel. The house of worship is present on the campus of the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a local higher education facility.
“Crosses do not belong on the logos of American cities. We are not a ‘Christian nation’ or a theocracy, but were first among nations to adopt a secular constitution wisely separating religion from government,” proclaimed FFRF Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor.
As is typically the case, the city was quick to stand down over the logo, considering the monumental legal fees that it would face if and when the case went to court. But now, in the wake of the controversy, James Bordas Jr., an attorney, has offered to represent the city pro-bono should a FFRF-led lawsuit take form.
“We thought the city was being bullied, perhaps because of lack of funds, into caving to the unlawful demands of an extremist group,” Bordas explained, going on to say that the law office has the money and time to devote to the case, if needed.
FFRF co-presidents Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker
The lawyer expects that the case could cost $10,000 to $15,000 to handle and that it will take a plethora of time to sort through. Also, Bordas believes that it will attract the attention of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), among other groups.
Rather than serving as a government endorsement of religion, Bordas claims that the presence of Christ the King Chapel is representative of a landmark that is important to the city of Steubenville.
“I don’t know why (city officials) wouldn’t want to (uphold the unchanged logo in court) when Franciscan University is such a very important part of that community and … a big part of Catholic tradition in this country,” he continued.
The FFRF, though, is sending warnings to the city, telling officials that offers from conservative groups and from Bordas will go unfulfilled.
“Do not be duped by offers from religious right legal groups,” wrote FFRF staff attorney Patrick Elliot, in a letter to the organization. “They may volunteer their time pro bono but they never pick up the plaintiffs’ tab.”
The letter went on to warn officials that “accepting such offers…will put city taxpayers at risk.”
Currently, no answer has been given from Mayor Dominic Mucci and other local leaders, although they are expected to meet soon to discuss Bordas’ proposal.
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Comments (138)
Mutiny
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:27amIts all coming to a end soon. We will be going bankrupt and after the riots, looting, rapes, and murders hopefully the nation that emerges from the ashes goes back to the Constitution. Then maybe we will quit having pastel politicians and groups like this telling people what to do.
If they dont like the sign, dont live their. If you the people of that town are forcing you to go to church on Sunday I understand you are mad. If not, shut up.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 4:45amI would think that if people would mark the door to their house with the blood of the lamb, then perhaps they wouldn’t need to see the crucifix constantly before them.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 4:57amIt’s funny how in their self-serving will, an Atheist will still do the Lord’s will [ not work], but the will of the Lord regardless.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 4:59am“Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
Report Post »historyguy48
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 6:13amYour dreaming. In the history of the world what you hope will come to pass has never happened, there isn’t a reset button. Neither has what is coming ever happened either. One country has failed, but others didn’t. This will be nasty.
Report Post »Take a look at this e-book Death of Civilization; the Apocalypse Begins by Nathan Hale. The protangonists run to their survival retreat because the financial collapse is starting and it gets much worse from there.
The scenario is far more realistic plus it’s a heck of a good read, especially if you like action books.
lgccac
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 7:28amDear historyguy48: Remember Noah’s Ark?
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 7:42amIts part of the communist manifesto. Remove religion from their lives. Their 3 goals, global goverance, global religion, and global economy. They are working hard to achieve all three with the help of the UN Agenda 21. NWO will be here unless we fight for our Republic on every front.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:03am“Dear historyguy48: Remember Noah’s Ark?”
Whoa, the Great Flood happened because a country went bankrupt!? I didn’t even know they HAD banking back in those times!
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:24amGOOD GRIEF, the amazing FRANCISCAN UNIVERSITY with all it’s amazing scholars are there. This is what one thinks of when they hear Stubenville, Oh. STAND AGAINST these creeps people!!! They have no right to go around the country trying to remove the evidence of what our Lord did for all humanity!! FIGHT HARD. DO not let them get another inch. LOOK AT OUR NATION without GOD in our Schools or Town Centers!!! This is what COMMUNISM looks like and those bloody fools failed!!
NO, ACLU… A group of FREE people can decide if they want to have a CROSS on their Logo. IF someone wants to add their symbol to the logo, fine… as long as it’s decent and of REAL meaning to the vast majority of STUBENVILLE and/or has some historical significance.
OUR rights to decent AMERICA are being stripped away by these Facists/Commie/Muslim ANTI-AMERICANS. They will LIE (like Harry Reid/Obama) they will cheat, they will steal, they will do anything to gain control of the rest of us. IF they believed in GOD then they wouldn’t need to CONTROL US.
THEY accuse us of being SHEEP (led around by Glenn Beck)…they do not get it. PATRIOTS are not led around by ANYONE. WE are free. WE think for ourselves. THE BEAUTY of the TEA PARTY and the 9/12ers is that 75% of this fabulous Nation are FREE MEN and WOMEN and when you dolts stepped over the line…we stood up. YOU can’t believe that people can stand up in Unison… but you’ve just seen it from 2009 onward… Now we’re ful
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:30amPS : I’m with you LGCCAC…. I ‘reckon’ that GOD has ’bout had’nough of this foolishness. HE gave us AMERICA. We went to sleep. We are awake now. Watch and see how awake we are in November!
Those silly freaks FFRF co-presidents Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker look positively giddy now. Wonder how they will look when they are face to face with Jesus Christ ?
Report Post »topazmarie
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 11:53amI am a resident of this once proud steeltown of hardworking men and women of various faiths, or none at all. The jobs are gone, its half violent ghetto, lots of retirees just eeking by. The Catholic University is nw the best thing going for us. Its been afine institution for over 60 yrs. sending thousands of graduates out, many highly successful in all areas of study.
Report Post »Why a bunch of freaks in wisconsin would even want ot bother us over the LOGO is incomprehensible. No doubt they are miserable w/ their lives and I also bet someone lines their pockets w/ these creepy little lawsuits. Well we are not taking it lying down. Christian or not not, you DO NOT MESS with “old” Steubenville kids. We are tough and we can take it.Thank you Blaze for reporting our little “situation.” We appreciate the coverage.
Diane TX
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:24amA landmark chapel on a City Seal, which is actually there, is NOT an establishment of a religion by Government. The Constitution bars the establishment of a “State” religion eg: The Church of England. The Constitution also restricts the government from prohibiting the free practice and excise of our religion.
“Freedom from religion” is not in our Constitution. That’s just something these nut jobs made up.
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 4:16amIndeed, the founders in their own papers were explicitly clear on the matter of religion and worship; the atheists are using their own spin on the matters to shatter one traditional freedom of the land, as occured in the French Revolution. Other groups, such as the marxists, communists and radicals are using the atheist movements for the same purpose and to the end of a collapse of our Republic.
Report Post »JACKTHETOAD
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 6:10amLooks like it’s almost time to sharpen our blades.
Report Post »Winedude
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:05pm“The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.”
–John Adams
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with
blood for centuries.¬”
–James Madison
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologie¬s.”
- Thomas Jefferson
“The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive¬,
capricious¬, and unjust.”
– Thomas Jefferson
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
Report Post »- James Madison
DexterMorgan
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:22pmWat I’ve noticed about fellow believers is that their eyes are bright and shiny and there is a glow about their face. With atheists there’s nothing just dark souless eyes.
Report Post »needmoinfo
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:24amTake a good look at our crime rate. We never should have taken prayer out of the schools. It was the only connection some children could make between growing up like an animal and realizing you can and should raise your expectations for youself as a human being.. That and the pledge of allegiance. What’s wrong with a minute of reflection and patriotism at the start of the day. If I had grown up in another country I don’t think I would have thumbed my nose at their religion or patriotism. In some countries they might cut off your head.
Report Post »flipp457
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 2:31amyou really do need some more info..
PEA!
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:04am“Take a good look at our crime rate.”
… that it’s fallen almost every single year since the early 1990s?
Report Post »themachinist239
Posted on August 15, 2012 at 10:58amSo, by your logic, since there is no longer prayer in school, kids have no moral compass and will inevitably end up in prison, right? Let’s look at prison statistics. 90.4% of the U.S. prison population are religious, and only about 32% of the general population in the U.S. are ‘non-religious’ (Pew). That means that only a third of these atheists/agnostics in the U.S. end up in prison. So, statistically, a person is more likely to end up in prison as a representative of ‘Christian values’ than having no religion at all. Wiping the slate clean and absolving yourself of your crimes against your fellow man without accepting responsibility, is a Christian value. Laying blame on the fact that you are inherently sinful, and therefore excused, can make a person quickly forget why it’s truly bad to wrong your fellow man. I’ve often heard criminals say “only God can judge me” throughout my whole life, and it’s a testament to the absolutely effective reality-avoidance mechanism that they use to justify their actions. Just keep on doing wrong, and come back next week for your forgiveness. I know not all Christians use this faulty logic and ‘game the system’ if you will, but it’s there for people to take advantage of.
Atheists like myself don’t have a master forgiver in the sky to absolve our misdeeds. We live with it and suffer the consequences which is the only way to acknowledge and improve upon your own morality; to become a better person.
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:22amLoser pays will stop these frivolous suits. Congress you listening? Enough is enough it was legal when it was put there its legal now. God Bless America In God We Trust Proclaim liberty throughout all the land and to all the inhabitants of it. Liberty Bell Leviticus 25:10…Laus Deo on he top of the Washington Monument.
Report Post »historyguy48
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 6:16amSure it would, but we already have that system. The trial lawyers legaue pays our senators and congressmen very well so that won’t get passed and we get to pay through the nose! See it’s already in place!
Report Post »It took more than a hundred years for England to adopt this approach. It works very well there.
StonyBurk
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:01amAnd the Holy Writ declares the folly of being unequally yoked to unbelievers. The atheistic firebrand of FFRF is married to a guy who once claimed to be a Christian Pastor.And as Scripture declares Judgement begins at the pulpit It would be interesting to be in the audience on the day of judgement when that couple approaches the righteous Judge and the brassy broad hears her husband cry Lord, Lord only to hear I never knew you.
Report Post »v15
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:08amHow can a group like Freedom From Religion exist? No one is forcing religion on anyone. The most discriminated against group in the country is made up of white males.
Report Post »SCREW-WINDOWS
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:20amThey must be very miserable and anal people to be offended by a logo, Picture, Drawing or symbol round them up and send them to Utah.
Report Post »v15
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:38amI don’t believe in rounding people up for their opinions because I believe in the freedom of speech. But many people in this country have been mislead to believe that they have the right to not be offended by religious symbols. America is awesome because we can actually express ourselves and speak our mind. The vast majority of the world doesn‘t even know what it’s like to be protected under that right.
Report Post »Jerry Frey
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:05amWe are a Christian nation because we are a Christian civilization.
Report Post »chucksue351
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 6:29amoh really, then who are all the people doing drugs (this nation leads the way) making and looking at pornagraphy (this nation leads the way) drinking and going to the caSINo (this nation leads the way) the list could go on and on, by their fruits you shall know them
Report Post »biggreenboo
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 10:28amList your sources Chuck… or shut your hole!
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 11:19amAccording to the most recent data from the World Health Organization, the Republic of Moldova (located between Romania and Ukraine, has the highest alcohol consumption.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_country_has_the_most_alcoholics_per_capita#ixzz22UrM0hGy
Report Post »chucksue351
Posted on August 4, 2012 at 5:51ami should have qualified the statement that in a country that overwhelmingly say it believes in god we lead the way, i should have checked sources, hyberole got in the way
Report Post »randy
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:53amEvery Christian in the nation should plant a little white cross in their front yard.
Report Post »Boy, wouldn’t that piss them off?
Jerry Frey
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:06amgood idea, but i don’t have a yard, blacktop
Report Post »concealled9mms
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:25amgreat idea i will build a 8 footer in the morning and tie my dobie to it that should get some attention. yep first thing in the morning its going up
Report Post »randy
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:26amJust took 20 minutes to throw two piece of wood together.
Tomorrow I paint it white and then John 3:16 will be stenciled across the front.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I wish Glenn would start something this nationally.
And Jerry, Hang one on your front door then.
Report Post »Halloween
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:09amSorry, I can’t put a cross up without burning it.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:05am@Randy
“Every Christian in the nation should plant a little white cross in their front yard.
Boy, wouldn’t that piss them off?”
The irony is, even though this would piss some people off, it’s completely Constitutional. The FFRF wouldn’t come after you for it… though depending on the zoning restrictions and size of the cross, the local government might!
Report Post »capitalismrocks
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:49amWhere do we send money to support the defense fund and push back HARD against these atheists, and I have so had it…. I want to see Huckabee start to rally people to support legal defense funds to go up against the atheists and stop this nonsense once and for all !!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 7:32amWe are in! This is where our tithe money is going to go this year: helping take back AMERICA.
Report Post »lylejk
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:47amReagan said it best.
“If we ever forget that we’re one nation under God, then we will be one nation gone under.” Ronald Reagan
Report Post »antitheist
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:46amAs the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
-From the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the Senate and signed by President John Adams.
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:51amYou want the Interpreation? Jefferson himself gave it in a bracketed section of his letter to the Danbury Baptist church. He was talking about state religion and a national denomination: “ I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ”make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church...]“
Report Post »antitheist
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:05amThank you for mentioning that, Cicero. I don’t think that many Christians realize that the best safeguard of religious liberty in this country is separation of church and state, a concept legitimized in that letter. Full separation of church and state did not at exist at that time, resulting in the persecution of Baptists by other Christians. I can think of no better example of the founders’ wish for a secular country than that bold statement of secularism.
Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:21amTo the contrary, the establishment clause – as demonstrated by Jefferson’s words – simply means there should be no official state religion. Right now there is an effective state religion of secular-humanism, and all other expressions of belief are being made subject to – and persecuted by – this view. If you would eliminate all references to religion on state property, you are advocating a respect towards religion. You should be advocating none.
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:26amLaus Deo brother !
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:37amModerationIsBest please take some time to read each state constitution.and then get back to me on separation of church and state and what it means.
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:41amLaus Deo!
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:45amhttp://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Preambles_to_state_constitutions
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:50amyour right in no way was this country founded by people of faith…
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Preambles_to_state_constitutions
I know you were not born stupid, 12 years of public education helped …
Report Post »antitheist
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:03am@Svan
Report Post »Are you saying that ancient state preambles, some verging on 250 years of age, somehow destroy the notion of “separation of church and state” as the Supreme Court interprets it? At the time of the writing of these constitutions, separation of church and state applied only on a federal level. Some states even had their own state religions, it doesn‘t mean that it wouldn’t be unconstitutional today. May I remind you that some states even had death penalties for blasphemy and that some states actively persecuted non mainstream protestants such as Catholics and baptists? All of this was going on when many of these preambles were written, how is the nature of these preambles anymore than a reflection of these religiously oppressive times? And as to the not so ancient ones, it hardly does me any harm that a state wishes to alienate non believers, as much as I would like to see them change. In the meantime, there are bigger fish to fry. It amazes me that you are completely ignorant of such basic facets of American history, such as the incorporation of the 14th amendment. When this occurred, states had to go back and re write their laws accordingly, it does not mean they had to re write their preambles which have no effect on law. Yes, I received public education, and am proud of that fact. I am proud in the fact that I was taught evolution correctly and not that it can be disproven by the loch ness monster as some christian texts do. (look it up on the blaze)
Winedude
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:32pmI hate posting the same thing twice, but this note calls for it:
“The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.”
–John Adams
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with
blood for centuries.”
–James Madison
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologie¬s.”
- Thomas Jefferson
“The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive,
capricious, and unjust.”
– Thomas Jefferson
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
Report Post »- James Madison
JUSTANOTHEROPINION
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:38amI hope they do not secome to this evil group. The ball has been rolling against these types of unConstitutional demands and I hope this city does not cave. If it were not for religion we would still be under the thumb of England. Our money say “in God we trust”, we take oaths on the Bible, our Armys & Police forces have Chaplains. So you see, separation of Church and State does not mean separation of Church and the people that serve in Government. Yes, they are right we are not a Christian nation nor a Theocracy, however, we are a nation founded on Christian beliefs and as such just as it has been since the begining there are reminders in and on Government Property to remind those that serve there. So you see, we have rights too and now is the time we have to stand up and say “NO MORE”, we have to fight back. Stand with God and God will stand with you.
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 2:48am@ JUSTANOTHEROPINION
I agree with you. This quote shows that they are bullies employing bluff and bluster.
“The City must consider the substantial costs involved in litigating an issue that is already settled by the courts. Do not be duped by religious right legal groups. They may offer their time “pro bono” but they never pick up the plaintiffs’ tab. A losing case of this type would involve a great amount of time and money at the taxpayers’ expense.”
Doesn‘t this sound like people who don’t want to go to court? I think that they are worried, and rightly so, that continued publicity will lead to a country-wide rebellion that will seriously impact their cause.
They would much rather that the city quietly cave in, saving FFRF their own money which cannot be inexhaustable. If every city defended itself, this organisation would have to either quit or go broke. They would, of course, cost the citizenry a lot of money in the meantime, which would produce even more resentment against this cowardly organisation.
There is a local poll in which about 75% are in favour of standing and fighting. This is the reaction that people expect of America when she is faced with bullies.
http://www.hsconnect.com/ (Poll is on the left of the page.)
I am an atheist and, if I lived there, I would support the city as well.
Report Post »needmoinfo
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:34amDemanding that the law must deny those with beliefs other than your own to openly profess, display or advertise their beliefs is to demand they choose your rights over and above everybody elses. If you deny anyone elses rights, you erase your own also. The day has come and gone that this kind of religion or lack of same should bully the courts. Enough already.
Report Post »pwatkins
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:33amAthiest need to get a life and I mean that literally. John 3:16 is where they can begin and end.
Report Post »EvillivE
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:31amThe logo seems to me to show a bridge, a road, sky scrapers, homes, shops, churches and people. I would be willing to stake my reputation, that this is an accurate depiction of ALL the city has to offer. Let the idiots sue, I will take my time and represent the city for free, as long as these narrow minded people have to pay for all of it when they lose. ;’)
Report Post »Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:43amIs it a utility pole? Just tell the idiots, that’s not a cross, it’s a utility pole. Let them fight that….”Hey, uh, that utility pole offends me.”
Report Post »Tankertony
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:27amAmericans awake!!
Report Post »If we stand together, we will beat back these godless leftists on every front. They don’t stand a chance against the righteous might of America.
We spanked the Nazis, we spanked the commies, we’ll spank the progressives in time.
Kaoscontrol
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:26amAs a Christian, i’m offended by the large “A” for ‘Athiests’ at the logo’s center. I guess that makes us even. Case closed.
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:26amHow does a cross on the image of a historical building on a city logo constitute the U.S. Congress passing a law creating a national denomination? Can these atheists and ACLU lawyers not read and understand plain English? I’ll tell you what, the majority of the American people can. I’ll bet the citizens of the city of Steubenville, Ohio can, too.
Report Post »needmoinfo
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:24amOnly Christians put up with this baloney. What would an atheist dominated country be like?
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:29amAtheists aren’t looking to “dominate” this country. That’s impossible.
What we’re against is religious people shoving their religious symbols on government property. I wouldn’t care if every house on my block had a nativity scene at Christmas time. I like them, they’re nice to look at….just don’t put them up on government property. It’s that encroachment that leads to our government adopting “In God We Trust” as our motto in the 50s. It’s how we get to “Under God” getting put into our pledge in the 50s.
What we’re against is religious trying to get creationism taught in science class…..when creationism isn’t science.
Report Post »Tankertony
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:30amNo God, no America.
The leftist narrative is that we are a secular people with a secular government.
The Truth is that we are a very religious people (compared to people worldwide) with a secular government that is still tempored by our core religious beliefs.
Tea!
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:47amEvolution is equally based in assumption. Science means formulating a hypothesis, making observations in a controlled environment, drawing data, and then testing the hypothesis. Belief and non-belief are equally immaterial to true scientific thought. We can’t go back to the origin of the world or of life and observe it several times, record data, etc. So any extrapolation we make involves an assumption. Typically athiests assume there is no God, there is uniformitarianism, and then they make up a substitutionary “god” to explain observed coincidence in the universe. “Multiverse -there must be infinate mulitple expanding universes to explain how we got a universe so finely-tuned for galaxies, let alone life, to exist!“ ”Panspermic theory – the seeds of life are wafted across the cosmos!“ ”Anthropic principle – man will become so wise that he will someday create himself!” What a bunch of philosophical hogwash. And this is they kind of thing you point towards as being scientific? At least Christians in the scientific community retain their objectivity because they realize creation is separate from the supernatural. Christians are not forcing themselves on the scientific community, apart from a few unfortunate, uninformed creaionists. Rather it is atheists like you who would push a world-view with a definate respect towards religion down everyone else’s throats.
Report Post »needmoinfo
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:55amIf you want to correct all the history books you have a much bigger problem than creationsism. This country is Christian. You are just in the wrong country in the wrong century. You can advertise your disbelief in God anyway you want. On your sweatshirt, on the courthouse lawn, on your home and business, on bumper stickers. Who cares. It is not like you are arguing for religious fairness or equal billing. You don’t even have a religion. You are lacking something so you don’t want anyone else to have it. Faith and tolerance.
Report Post »woodyl1011fl
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 5:58amThere are many examples of an atheist dominated states/countries. 1.) Third Reich, 2.) Lenin’s/Stalin’s USSR, 3.) Mao’s China, 4.) Cuba, 5.) Pol Pot’s Cambodia, 6.) North Vietnam, 7.) Tojo’s Imperial Japan.
Report Post »Kaoscontrol
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:22amPretty soon these Athiests will demand we take down telephone poles because they have a cross beam at the top. It sure would be nice if these idiots would do something more positive with their time and resources, instead of chasing after every cross visible within the city limits.
Report Post »Tankertony
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:22amThe godless writhe in agony over their condition. Attacking God is all they know.
Report Post »needmoinfo
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:18amMajority rules. If the Christian majority in a town in a Christian country must hide that Christianity then Atheists too must be unseen and silent. And all faiths and all minorities and gays and so on and so on. You have no right to your own beliefs is you censor anyone else. Stop the insanity. So protesting does not and should not impower anyone to silence the Christian majority in a Christian country. If you want to have a voice you cannot achieve that by silencing everyone else. All or none.
Report Post »TheCalmOne
Posted on August 12, 2012 at 11:33pmYou are describing fascism, not democracy.
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:18amI am sick to death of the bullies of these anti-theistic org like the freedon from religion cabal. They prey upon those who do not have the funds to fight back. The system that makes defending yourself in court a bankrupting proposition is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I dunno, preying on the weak (financially) sounds like bullying to me.
I can only take comfort in knowing that one day…………..might be soon………
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:22amI‘m assuming you’re talking about the end times?
If so, yup, you keep looking forward to the end of the world.
I’m glad all of that mass death and destruction is something you can “take comfort in.”
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:32amWell, there has been made a way to avoid the death and destruction. The choice is yours….
So am I to assume that you are choosing death and destruction? Or are you saying that knowing the death and destruction that will come in the tribulation, you are still choosing death and destruction?
God has made the plan very clear. Are you blaming Him for your (or any one else’s) choice?
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:42am@KAYDEEBEAU
I‘m saying there is no legitimate reason to think anything you’re saying about an afterlife, end times, God, tribulation, actually exists.
I‘m also saying that I think it’s immoral to look forward and “find comfort” in the possibility of a time when billions of people will suffer and die just so I could potentially go a place of eternal bliss.
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:33amWell, yes there are the matters of the finely tuned nature of the ratios of the masses of electrons to protons/neutrons, the relative strength of electro-magnetism to the strong and weak nuclear forces, the fairly perfect un-evenness of the distribution of matter dispursed by the Big Bang as demonstrated by COBE mapping of cosmic background microwave radiation, and the rate of expansion of the universe following the Big Bang – without any one of which we would not have had galaxies and stars, and their subsequent baking of the heavier elements. There are these things. Oh, and there’s the existence of morality in the universe. Most atheists inherently know morality exists, and then seeing the injustice around them they assume a God couldn’t exist and allow such bad things to happen. Which in effect is saying that, “Because I know that there is morality, therefore I know that there is no morality.” (It’s a non-sequitur – if anything the existence of morality aruges for the existence of the source of morality). So yes, there are these things. But aside from them, you are correct, there could be no legitimate reason to postulate that an afterlife, end times, God, or the tribulation actually exists.
Report Post »guz75
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 5:33am@ MODERN_CICERO
I really can’t stand when people try to use science to prove a religious point. You start off talking about physics and the universe and then attempt to some how link these things to morality, as if morality were an element on the periodic table.
Morality is a human construct, the majority of which stems from the long and gradual process of self awareness, through to empathy. A set of learnt rules that in basis cover how we should treat each other and how we should conduct ourselves. Morality as we know it may well have been influenced by organised religion, but it far pre-dates it and you only have to look around the world to see how morality differs between different cultures, particularly some of the less advanced ones.
Trying to substantiate morality by suggesting it has a life of it’s own and then dropping it into your point as if it were some tangible element is weak. Personally I don’t question the existence of God based on human morality, or on the many other things not connected to morality (earthquakes, fires, landslides etc), because I don’t believe in an omnipresent, omniscient deity influencing our daily lives.
I have a certain admiration for some of the subtleties you’ve used, but realistically your doing what many others have done and are trying to create a solid basis for your point by linking science to it, but of course morality is not an element on the periodic table and it’s existence is part of human development.
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 10:59amI frankly too find it amazing when someone purports to be using science to support a position ultimately based on philosophy and religious conjecture. My point was that we don’t know at all the source of the order and fine tuning that undeniably exists in the world. It could point to God, or it could point to amzaingly good luck. Whether there is or is not a deity is not a matter for scientific consideration. Science should deal with the facts. The problem is that I see order in the universe and know that it could have come from God (I certainly belive it did) and yet if God were somehow disproved I would walk away from Christianity tomorrow. However, you see order in the universe and you make an assumption that it must have just happened. Your philosophical bias on this pont is so profound you cannot see it. Do you know that man‘s constructs of reality predate man’s constructs of God? No. Do you know that there was a long and gradual process towards self awareness and emphathy? No. You suppose these must be the case because of long indoctrination into theories which go beyond facts and are based on assumptions. History proves that when secular scientists have their theories disproven, they tend to cling to them anyway until they eventually die off. This is called confirmation bias. If you watch Sagen and feel a sense of awe and wonder at being a part of an old and amazing cosmos, stardust become self aware, know that’s religious conjecture. It’s not empir
Report Post »Modern_Cicero
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 11:43amIn fact, let me give you a couple of quick examples. The only reason that multiverse theory exists at all is to try to explain the fine-tuning we observe in the universe apart from the logical explanation for the fine-tuning we observe in the universe. Note, by the way, that as soon as either of us says the word “logic”, which is neccessary for making assumptions to extrapolate information from what we observe, we have left the realm of empirical science and entered the realm of philosphical conjecture. Another example: When evolutionists came out with the theory of punctuated-equilibria, and its subsequent derivitives, they were saying, in effect, “The theory based on our philosophical bias doesn’t match what we observe in nature, so we‘re going to come up with a new theory that can’t be proven or disproven at this time.”
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:16am“Chalk it up to a summer slump, vacation schedules or a lack of religious targets to focus upon, but the silence has been notable.”
Shows how much you know about Atheists.
June and July are our holy months where we take special pilgrimages to well know Atheists sites. ……jk
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:25amLaus Deo
Report Post »adouglass1
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:15amThese people are the ugly people in life that have nothing better to do because they are so ugly and hateful. Get a clue get a life go away!! This assault on God and his people is going to backfire on them….
Report Post »svan71
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:13amThese people have absolutely no life whatsoever.
Report Post »conge44
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:13amThe winds of change are on the horizon, Americans are pushing back against the intolerance of those pushing “ tolerance ” !!!!
Report Post »Paul
Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:58amLuke 12
47: For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
It’s time to push back and hard…
Are we God’s Children ? Then Act Like it.
Trolls don’t bother, you will have a bad day.
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