Maher: Romney Has No Chance of Presidency Because He is Mormon
- Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:15pm by
Tiffany Gabbay
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For an atheist, Bill Maher sure loves to talk about religion and this latest time is no exception.
The bombastic Real Time host sowed his latest pearls on MSNBC’s “The Ed Show” Wednesday, when he asserted that Mitt Romney has no chance at the GOP nomination because he is Mormon, while also making the bold assertion that Mormonism is closer to Islam than it is to Christianity. According to Maher, Mormon doctrine places Jesus Christ “third in the hierarchy.”
This latest diatribe is perhaps intended to cast doubt on Republican front-runner Mitt Romney as we move forward into 2012. Michael Eric Dyson, a guest host for the “Ed Show,” asked Maher if he thought, “Republicans, the base that is, are ever really, truly going to place their faith in a guy who’s a Mormon?” To which Maher responded, ”no:’
That’s what’s going to be so interesting is when Rick Perry in sly and underhanded and no fingerprints methods starts putting out the idea, which is a true idea by the way, that Mormons are not really Christians. You know, once America, which is a very Christian nation, finds that out, I think they’ll have a, certainly in the Evangelical part of the country, those folks, they will not be very fond of Mitt Romney.
Once they find out that Jesus Christ is like third in the hierarchy there. Really was about Joseph Smith. Actually, Mormonism is closer to Islam because in Islam Jesus is also a revered figure. He’s a wonderful prophet. He’s just not the ultimate prophet. You know, he’s like the middle act. He’s certainly not the headliner.”
In an effort to try to bolster his case, Maher allegedly quotes from the LDS website, “Mormons, for all the other things that set us apart, believe first and foremost that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer,” Maher said. “We believe that through Him, all mankind may enjoy eternal life with their families in Heavenly Father’s kingdom.” He continued:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the official name of the religion commonly called the Mormon Church. It was established April 6, 1830 by Joseph Smith, the first president of the Church. We believe he was called by God to be a prophet in the modern era, like Moses and Abraham in biblical times. Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ in a vision after praying to know which church to join. They called on him to restore the church Christ organized when He was on earth, with the proper organization and priesthood authority that had been lost shortly after the Savior’s death.
Watch Maher’s interview below:
The issue of a Mormon president has been circulating the nation for quite some time. Back in July The Blaze reported on a controveresial documentary that asked if America was ready for a Mormon president — the underlying question that Maher dealt with regarding Mitt Romney. Unlike Maher, however, that documentary delivers the conversation in a much more nuanced way. The Blaze’s Billy Hallowell reported on details of the documentary:
In his upcoming film, “A Mormon President,” director Adam Christing explores whether America is ready for a Mormon president. Christing and his team take a comprehensive look at the faith system’s history and the multitude of contemporary thoughts, opinions and controversies that often surround it.
As Hallowell mentions in his article, the documentary tries to address the issue in a balanced way:
While the film does, indeed, delve into modern — not to mention historic — critiques of the Mormon Church, Christing strikes an aura of balance. Based on screener footage that The Blaze obtained earlier this week, interview subjects include Mormons, ex-believers and historians — all of whom contribute relevant pieces to the overall puzzle.
Below is a video clip of the documentary and you can read about the director’s interview on The Blaze.
By the way, you can also read Noel Sheppard’s take on Maher at NewsBusters.
This story has been updated for clarity.
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Comments (665)
Christian Kalgaard
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:39pmlol is the Blaze the Mormon Defense Agency now?
who is the Blaze to involve itself in doctrinal issues?
paperpushermj
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:49pmFool ask yourself first why the Blaze might need to come to the defense of a Maligned Religion
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:51pmBecause the founder is a mormon, I think that would be a great reason.
Report Post »jlarson7
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:00pmNo they just expose idiots that have no idea what their talking about. This guy obviously has an agenda behind his words and doesn’t care whether his ideas are correct or not.
Report Post »the hawk
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:02pmleave Glenn alone! he’s cool ! PACKERS ROCK ! ! !
Report Post »Dr Truth
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:04pmHere’s the real Mormon Defense League. http://mdl.org/
Report Post »Check it out if you are truly interested in their explanations of some of their most misrepresented beliefs and practices. If you are insincere, or happier remaining ignorant or misinformed, then don’t bother.
SpunkyGal
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:07pmI think the Blaze enjoys watching so many people get wound up. The comments below get insane. It’s true entertainment and for logical people extremely concerning. Does anyone else find the amount of blind hatred towards Mormons on here absolutely ridiculous?
Report Post »mils
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:07pmwhy do you, blaze, keep reporting and playing this guy up….he’s a fool
Report Post »Clive
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:11pmglenn converted to Mormonism at some point. and bill maher isn‘t the only one who doesn’t consider mormons to be christian. they aren’t christians.
although, i don’t see how you compare it to islam. i don’t know of any mormon terrorists…
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:13pmWhats insane is giving this guy any coverage. His opinion is worthless and stupid.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:15pmDr Truth;
That looks like an excellent site.
Report Post »Shiroi Raion
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:23pmMaher is the result of the mating of a whore and a proboscis. An perverted, angry monkey with a nose bigger than his head and a passion for child prostitutes.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:24pm@Darren,
Okay, you think everyone is lying. Are you willing to admit, with all of the Christians of various faiths here, that mormons believe the mormon church is “the only true church.” Are you also willing to admit you believe that one of the requirements to get into the Celestial Kingdom is to be LDS? That Christians who have NOT also LDS – do NOT get into the celestial kingdom?
Can you just be honest? Or do you avoid the question, give a convoluted answer.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:27pmOn another note, here is what a more reputable funny man had to say about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. This from Mark Twain:
“The book seems to be merely a prosey detail of imaginary history with the Old Testament for a model followed by a tedious plegiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint old fashioned sound and structure of our King James translation of the scriptures. The result is a mongrel, half modern glibbness and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained, the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern, which was about every sentence or two, he ladeled in a few such scriptural phrases as, “exceeding sore,“ ”and it came to pass,” etc. and made things satisfactory again. “And it came to pass,” was his pet. If he had left that out, his bible would have been only a pamphlet.”
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:31pmDR TRUTH, it simply contradicts fundamental Biblical truths and doctrines of Christianity as were laid out by the apostle to the gentiles. I assume you know who he was?
Report Post »skeemerb
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:41pmI’m a Mormon. If you want to know the truth about Mormons, the first person I would listen to is Bill Maher. Especially, since he is so knowledgeable about us. The last thing I would do is ask a Mormon what we believe. That would be crazy!! http://www.lds.org would be the best place to really learn about Mormons.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:42pmHank;
“Okay, you think everyone is lying”
No, I think **you** are lying. I stated why. You are presenting material as “Momon doctrine” when I know you know better. You also present Mormons as secretive: not expressing what they believe. Having been in Salt Lake City yourself you cannot say this without knowing that such is absolutely false.
“Are you willing to admit, with all of the Christians of various faiths here, that mormons believe the mormon church is “the only true church.””
I absolutely believe that. and as such I believe that Mormons should willingly be other’s servants. Such should be te mark of true followers of Christ. I also believe:
“If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” (Article of Faith #13). Such things are found in all religions. I also believe: ” 11We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” (Article of Faith #11).
Do you have to be LDS to get ot the Celestial Kingdom? Not at all. But one does have ot enter into covenants with the Lord and keep those covenants in order to receive all the blessings God the Father promises through the mercy of His Son.
(continued)
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:45pm@Darren,
and does Jesus forgive our sins? not according to the Mormon Prophet Brigham Young who said:
“There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:51pmHank (continued);
You mentioned all the Christians here so:
“5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot denter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3
Also:
” 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 14
Well, the vast majority of God’s children on earth have never had the opportunity to even heard of Christ or of His gospel let alone accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. The way I see it, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the only true answers as to how ALL of God’s children will have the opportunty to accept Christ and be baptized. If anyone thinks these are not necessary, welll, then, there’s those scriptures they to reconcile with.
Report Post »SamIamTwo
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:53pmPersonally I think Beck is a Christian and is afraid of being shunned. How about them apples, eh?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:04pmHank;
Will you STOP using the Journal of Discourse to represent LDS beliefs. If you presented Brigham Young’s blood atonement lectures accurately you would know that he was wondering how capital punishment was justified in ancient Israel and how it could be justified today. In those lectures he himself said that if the LDS people were righteous they would not carry out anything like “blood atonement”
As I exorted you earler, research and learn of the LDs faith before presenting it to others.
“15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.”
Mosiah 16:15
“26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.”
2 Nephi 25:26
Also try the following link of “redeption” and show me where the LDS faith believes that forgiveness comes through anything but the atonement of Jesus Christ.
http://lds.org/scriptures/tg/redemption?lang=eng&letter=r
Stop bearing false witness. In this case, through false perception.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:07pm“The Christian’s Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes…The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry…..There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.”
- “Bible Teaching and Religious Practice,” Europe and Elsewhere
That must really crack you up.
http://www.twainquotes.com/Bible.html
Report Post »ashfaldmo8
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:08pmThe Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. This argument can’t honestly be continuing. Everyone knows Mormon is Christian. Bill Maher is desperate for publicity.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:17pm@Darren,
the Journal of Discourses does represent mormon beliefs. Its a compilation of sermons that were given by mormon prophets joseph smith and brigham young. I know its full of crazy, and I know mormons would love to pretend it doesn’t exist, but it does.
I really think the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are a big monkey on the backs of Mormons. I think many would love it if the church would drop that and just stick with Jesus and the bible. That might happen some day. The mormon church has been evolving – changing the book of mormon over time, changing its temple rituals, all trying to fit in to modern society more. The change will keep coming slowly but surely. It has to change because members are leaving in droves. they get on the internet, they read Joseph Smith and Brigham Young’s own words, and they are appalled.
Report Post »Servant Of YHVH
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:20pm@hank
Report Post »“that mormons believe the mormon church is “the only true church.” Are you also willing to admit you believe that one of the requirements to get into the Celestial Kingdom is to be LDS? That Christians who have NOT also LDS – do NOT get into the celestial kingdom?”
It doesn’t matter what anyone believes, the only thing that matters is what God KNOWS! Every person and every religion believes in something that is wrong and every person believes in something that it right so no one can say that the other doesn’t believe in something. All we can do is let God sort it all out when He’s ready to. BTW: I don‘t have a problem with mormons and I was excommunicated from the mormon church when I was young because we wouldn’t make my grandparents change from the Nazarene Church to mormonism. That doesn’t matter to me or to God, all that matters is what EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON believes personally. Every denomination has beliefs that are right and every denomination has beliefs that are wrong.
Ruler4You
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:25pmNow Maher is a theologian? I thought he was a social economist… before he was a political consultant… before he was a western culture scholar… before he was a jurist… before he was a professor of history… before he was a Leninist… before he was a legislative pundit?
Wow! his elitist attitude really is justified!
Report Post »Edward
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:28pmThis is only a story here because of Beck. Ill have to agree with Maher though. Mormonism is a cult-religion. It does not believe in the same God and Jesus that christianity believes. Jesus is just one of many gods in Mormonism. Its every Mormons duty to work themselves in life with the attainable goal of diety on another planet in the universe after they die here. Mormonism is an abomination and blasphemes the God of Israel and Jesus Christ, who came to Earth and died for our sins and was rose again 3 days later.
Report Post »psychodd1
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:41pmapparently they are more qualified then maher who has no clue about Mormon doctrine.
Report Post »AOL_REFUGEE
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:45pmMaher doesn’t know his arse from a hole in the ground when it comes to religion. Why can’t this d*psh*t simply stfu?
Report Post »GeorgieJo
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:52pmWHY is it everytime I see a picture of Billy “HBO” Mahear
HE seems to be PREACHING???
Geeze WHAT a LOSER!!!
BILL?
Report Post »I think you need to speak LOUDER
ROFL
taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:56pmDarren you an Hank seem to be going back and forth. Answer on question, how does one get saved? Let’s be Christian in the answer, ok? This is not a tough one. Simple answer, Ephesians will give you a good clue and Romans, and Galatians and may others.
Report Post »@ Coyote2
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:16pmIs this Maher thing really as dumb as it looks or is it just made up look that way by it’s makeup artists?
Report Post »mrmrsdaadams
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:28pmThank you Darren for your diligence in stating the truths of the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have always said, “If you want to know of someone’s faith, ask someone of that faith. Don’t ask a Mormon about what a Baptist believes. Don’t ask a Muslim what a Jew believes….and so on.“ That goes for all who are claiming to once be ”Mormons.” There is no way someone of another faith can know the truths of another faith’s heart, even if you were once of that faith. Pride will always get in the way and they will easily be persuaded by Satan himself. If fact, I am pretty sure Satan is pretty happy about all these comments being made. Darren, you did a wonderful job at defending what you know to be true. It doesn’t matter what others say from here on out. It is what it is.
Report Post »kayakinchris
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:29pmMeyer is an jackass. He also happens to be right about Mormonism.
“An expression which precisely defines the LDS teaching that men can become Gods was coined by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.” Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God! ”
so…follow the logic: It is but an accident of time and space that *I’m* not God’s Savior.
… you smell summthin’ fishy?
The Apostle Paul in Galatians warned the Galatian believers of the existence of ‘another gospel’. Gal. 1:6,7
“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ to another gospel, which is not another, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the Gospel of Christ.”
( The book of Mormon is subtitled:
‘Another gospel of Jesus Christ’ )
Moreover, the origins and identity of the Mormon jesus christ in the book of Mormon DO NOT SQUARE with the 2nd person of the Trinity, the genuine Jesus Christ, asrevealed by holy scriptures.
Report Post »Ergo: ‘ ’The gospel of *another* jesus christ ‘
And no amount of ‘witness’, ‘burning in the bosom’ can change the above salient fact.
SamIamTwo
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:34pm@Darren
John 3:5, Now what does it mean to be born of water and of the Spirit? Many Christian physicians and doctors will tell that is a physical birth which is a birth in water. The child in the womb is in the water. However, I don’t think that is what it means. In chapter 2 water is symbolic of the Word of God. Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth – John 17:17. There is a cleansing, sanctifying power in the Word. In John 15:3 Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you”. The word of God is likened unto water again and again. We believe that “born of water and of the Spirit” means that a person must be born again by the Holy Spirit using the Scripture. We believe, very definitely, that no one could be born again without the word of God applied by the Spirit of God. There are three outstanding conversion in the Book of Acts. They have been given to us as illustrations. The conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch, the conversion of Cornelius, and the conversion of Paul. In each of these three cases, the Word of God was used by the Spirit of God, given thru the man of God. I am confident that our Lord saying that one must be born of water and of the Spirit, referred to the Spirit of God using the Word of God. Without this Nicodemus could not enter into the kingdom of God.
A water baptism is an outward expression of an inward change…we are told to be in the Word continuously…the Word of God is the living wat
Report Post »Shiroi Raion
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:45pmI’ll vote for a Mormon, Catholic… Personally, I don’t care about religion. I’ll vote for anyone over a Socialist. No Obama in 2012, NO WAY!
Report Post »johnannegalt
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:49pmYou’re wrong- Romney will not win (not because he’s mormon) but because he’s an unsuitable candidate; a total RINO.
He’s a sell-out. “One of the most glaring examples of his tendency to statism is the much-referenced “Romneycare” in Massachusetts. That program suffers from a number of fatal flaws that are mirrored by Obamacare, but one of the most politically unpopular aspects is the mandate. Romney staunchly defends the mandate on two basic grounds, and after some consideration, I’ve concluded that he’s wrong on both. First, he offers that this is different because it’s a 10th Amendment issue. This is an issue for the individual states, and its reserved exercise of its powers, he argues. Of course, this holds that the people of his state aren’t entitled to the protections of the constitution with respect to this law. Many constitutional arguments can be raised about such mandates, and most of them revolve around the bill of rights. “….. it goes on. –Mark America
http://markamerica.com/2011/07/29/mitt-romneys-enduring-problem/
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 11:51pmSamian;
like you’ve said before “we agree to disagree”. I do think Jesus was speaking directly to baptism whe He spoke of water and of the Spirit. He made a direct distiction between water and [the] Spirit and made it clear that both were absolutely needed. I believe that to apply this to the coversions you mentioned is that baptism was already done for great men like Paul.
Report Post »MAnderson1965
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 12:11amFirst, the title “Mormons,” which goes way back, was attributed to members of the church by non-members, and it is not a correct title. The church’s name, since it‘s inception in the 1820’s, is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, not the “Mormon Church” or the “Church of Joseph Smith.” Jesus is at the head of the church, and His father, Jehovah (God).
Second, Maher’s words describing LDS members as “not being Christians” is utterly preposterous. Members of the LDS Church worship Jesus Christ (not Joseph Smith), second only to God the father. Maher, and so many others need to do more research before opening their mouths and inserting their feet!
Report Post »Platonician
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 6:36amWe elected a Muslim, why wouldn’t we elect a president who belongs to the most American religion? Note: I’m not a Mormon but you have to agree that unlike other religious groups which doctrines were imported from abroad, Mormonism is 100% American.
Report Post »BehindBlueEyes
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 7:58am@jlarson7
Report Post »You summed up accurately.
Mike Z4000
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 8:49amLets see, it shows how afraid and misaligned mentally that Bill Maher (the atheist) really is!!! The country elected a Black (half black non- American), Marxist (lifetime of communist mentors) , Pro-terrorist (Bill Ayers), Anti-capitalist (take over of business through bogus stimulus bills), Pro-muslim (turning NASA into an outreach to muslims), Anti-constitution (see his Executive Orders especially like 13575), Pro-UN Agenda 21 loving (Wildlands project), Anti-american (reverend Wright) narcisist, who is hell bent on destroying the Constitution of the United States (Executive Orders).
And Bill Maher is concerned about a Christian, Pro-business Mormon!!! Now just how sick and jaded is that puppy, Bill Maher?
Report Post »lillymckim
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 8:57amI wonder why Maher doesn’t mock Islamics and Muslims?
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 11:38amJoseph Smith was killed by a mob because he was having sex with young girls in the community. The mob included many mormons who had left the mormon church. Warren Jeffs did the same thing. False prophets running around having sex with underage girls.
Report Post »tketterer
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 12:40pm@manderson1965……..Wrong answer, check “your” Mormon history. It has not been called that since it’s inception. Let’s see if you can find it on the internet that you are not supposed to use. AND using your logic, why is it called the book of “MORMON?” Noh the book of lds?
Report Post »LetUsReason
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 1:36pmWell it looks like Darren and Hankscram have a lot to say to each other. As a Mormon, I really don’t care what Bill Maher has to say about my religion or any religion. I’m not sure that it would be wise to take counsel from him on any matter pertaining to spiritual concerns.
Additionally, this site isn’t really the venue to be debating doctrines. It creates ill-feelings, and really, no one on either side is going to feel the Spirit and be bathed in light with angels singing while getting in a fiery debate on here. Can a Mormon be president? Why don’t we look at his qualifications to lead this country in the right direction and evaluate his policies? That’s what we should be doing.
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 3:09pmMaher tipped his hand …we all now know which candidate he doesn’t want to run in 2012.
Report Post »nstamper
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 3:40pmIt‘s amazing to hear the rhetoric around Romney’s religious beliefs. Anyone who’s anyone who knows, works with, lives by, is a friend of or has any association with a Mormon knows that these people are some of the most Christ-like people on the planet. Believe what ignorance that you’d like, but Mormons are Christians and PRACTICING Mormons are extremely great citizens, patriots and giving and loving people. I’ll vote for anyone that espouses values of family, loyalty, national pride, love and service toward their fellow men, tolerance, Christian virtue and honesty—that includes Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, Islamists….you get the point.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 6:18pmMormons are screaming on this site that every one is unfairly criticizing their religious beliefs – that everyone who thinks its false is a hater, anti-mormon, etc. Mormons can NEVER say that someone looked at it closely and fairly and simply determined that it is false.
So, I’ll give any mormon a chance. Can any mormon refer me to a single written source that you provides a fair analysis of mormon history and mormon beliefs – and arrives at the conclusion that it was false?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 7:19pmHank;
“So, I’ll give any mormon a chance. Can any mormon refer me to a single written source that you provides a fair analysis of mormon history and mormon beliefs – and arrives at the conclusion that it was false?”
I will not even to begin to entertain such a childish argument until after you have provided an author with a fair analysis of Christianity and concludes that Christianity is false and which you agree with that author.
Report Post »AllAmericanGirl22
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 8:34pmHmmmm, I don’t know. Maybe it’s because Glenn is a Mormon?? In case you didn’t know, Glenn founded this site.
Report Post »CrimsonTider
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 8:55pmBecause somebody decided religion should be an issue. I’m still a Sarah Palin fan, won‘t forget Huckabee’s underhanded dealing last time around. Romney isn‘t my fav but being Mormon isn’t it.
Report Post »Zion1830
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 9:37pmIt is interesting how many comments are posted about this subject. Most of us who believe the bible to be the word of God know that the prophets in the old and new testmt were persecuted for their teachings and even the Savior himself was killed for his works. Some said he had an evil spirit and other thought of him as a blasphemer to the true God of Israel, but we know he was our savior. I know Jesus Christ suffered and died for the sins of the world. I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and I know the Book of Mormon is true. Mark Twain was speeking only through the powers of his own mind and reason, that God gave him. God loves all his children but blessed be the true and faithful. The only way to truely know if the Book of Mormon is true is to ask God the Father In the name of his son. He will tell you.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 9:50pm“The only way to truely know if the Book of Mormon is true is to ask God the Father In the name of his son. He will tell you.”
Millions have. God told most of them it was not true. Even most who signed up for the mormon church were told it was false – because the majority of mormons have left the church – its not 14,000,000 members – its 14,000,000 who signed up – most of whom were told by God it was false, so they left the mormon church. Attendance is 30-40% of claimed membership.
We know God told most who read the Book of Mormon is false. Who told some that it is true?
Report Post »Susie
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 10:45pmRead the story. Maher made this a political attack on a presidential hopeful. Wise up. Think before you comment.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:26amhank;
“We know God told most who read the Book of Mormon is false. Who told some that it is true?”
According to your posts Hank, it was yourself and the lies and distortions you bought into that told you the Book of Mormon is false. God told me clearly the Book of mormon is true and that Joseph Smith wasa true prophet of God. You resort to lies about around unfounded accusations against Joseph Smith to conclude he was a false prophet.
You’d be on the forefront in ancient Israel denoucnig Moses for calling a bat a bird, for murdering an Egyptian just doing his job, and for using magic to turn a staff nto a serpent. And ,remember, this is Old Testament times when the serpent was a symbol of the devil. Sure, oyu’d believe in God and in the Messiah to come and in the scripture of the time; you‘d just wouldn’t follow Moses. Moses, by the way, did have intimate relations with several wives.
Report Post »Reedo
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:50amYou guys are dumber than crap. Mormonism advocates the support of the US Constitution. Where in the hell does your religion advocate the support of the Constitution as a policy? I am not a Mormon, but I sure as hell would rather have one of them covering my back in a fox hole then one of you losers.
Report Post »dr_funk
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:35amNo, Romney will lose because he is a RINO. The mormon thing is minor compared to everything else.
Report Post »thepatriotdave
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:10amHmmm, a story about two people that I do NOT care about. No comment.
The Day the Tea Party was Murdered… http://www.AmericasTeaPartyNews.com
Report Post »RJO
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:42pmUh….
I’ve made this point more than once……why does anyone “care” what this diminutive, hate-filled, bigot think? I’ve read that short people with extremely LARGE earlobes have a LARGE problenm with self-esteem.
Guess it’s true….
Irrelevant persepective – move on…….
Report Post »JesusIsTheChrist
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:38pmOh boy. Here comes all the comments from so-called experts on Mormonism. I’ll keep this one short. I’ve been Mormon for over 30 years, and I most definitely know and LOVE my Savior. Maher could not be more wrong here. I am actually shocked at how off the mark his comments are and now I know for sure that I can completely disregard everything else he says from this day forward.
Report Post »Good luck to all of you. I hope you’re happy, hopeful… but also getting prepared. Peace.
HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:45pmAre you going to admit that you, as a life-long mormon, believe that the President of the mormon church is a living Prophet?
Why won’t mormons admit what they believe? Instead they just shout that everything people say about their religion is false. But they just won’t come clean and admit the beliefs of their religion. Some mormon sects do, like the reformation sect of the mormon church. But the Utah sect is really secretive.
UBETHECHANGE
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:47pmI don’t care what religion you practice I stand with all people of faith that denounce violence, extremism, radicalism, communism, and the New World Order!
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:49pmHankscram, I as a lifelong member of the LDS church will affirm my belief to you that the leader of the LDS church, Thomas S. Monson, has been ordained a prophet of God on this earth. I have never, EVER heard any member of the church deny the prophet is a living prophet of God.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:53pmAside from the leader claiming himself a prophet, do you believe as doctrinally taught that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:54pmHank;
Your bearing false witness against your neighbors knows no bounds.
http://lds.org/study/prophets-speak-today?lang=eng
You can find that link right on the front page of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saint’s official website. Yes, Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet of God. He saw God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ. Yes, Thomas S. Monson is God’s living prophet today. There’s no secret here. You having lived/physically been in Salt Lake City know for yourself this is no secret. Your zeal to intentionally distort makes you nothing short of a liar.
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:04pmTaskmaster. Mormon’s believe that we are children of God. We believe that God created everything. We also believe, as the Bible teaches, that God is not the exact SAME being as Jesus Christ. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And as such, because we call God, God the Father, that we are spirit siblings to our Divine brother, Jesus Christ. We also believe that Satan is a son of God, who has fallen, and been cast out of Heaven. If God created EVERYTHING, it stands to reason that he also created Lucifer. So logically, if God created everything, and Lucifer is a Fallen child of God, and Jesus Christ is the Divine Son of God. Then Satan is not only Christ’s brother, but our brother as well.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:05pmHey LUCKYWON, he’s not a prophet ordained by God, he’d been stone for the false prophecies uttered through his lips. Second he contradicts the apostle Paul from Galatians chapter 1 and I’d hope you are familiar with it, but then again you believe in modern prophecy. Let me enlighten you: Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Now he provides a great warning, and remember he is the “apostle to the gentiles” he was given “the gospel of the Grace of God” he explains it was “hidden but now revealed”
Gal 1:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Report Post »Paul has authority and your “prophet” holds none, God will not be mocked by any religion especially one who claims Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.
Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:13pmTaskmaster. I was asked to state what I believed. I did. It is NOT your right to state what I believe for me. That is only something Satan would do. Try to put words in my mouth. Try to make me believe what YOU want me to believe. Jesus Christ is my Lord. He is my Savior. Who are you to tell me that I am wrong?
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:17pmTaskmaster. I have never been taught a DIFFERENT Gospel than the gospel of the Bible. I understand that you are trying to say that the Book of Mormon is a perverted version of the Bible, but that isn’t it at all, and simply proves that you don’t understand what the Book of Mormon is. So that stated, you are simply ignorant. Not stupid… just ignorant. I suggest that before you attempt to tempt people away from their love of Christ and his teachings, that you first reflect on who would also try to do that very thing.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:21pmTask master;
President Monson is absolutely ordained of God to be His living prpophet on the earth today. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is nothing short of the restoration of the gospel Jesus Christ set up in ancient times Galation’s warnings of following a false gospel need not apply to the LDS church.
Rest well tonight.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:28pmLUCKYWON read between the lines.
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:04pm
Taskmaster. Mormon’s believe that we are children of God.
(yet salvation is by works thus contradicting the Bible) We believe that God created everything. We also believe, as the Bible teaches, that God is not the exact SAME being as Jesus Christ
(Yet Revelations chapter one he Jesus claims he is the “alpha & omega” help! yep he claims he is both the beginning and without end).
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And as such, because we call God, God the Father, that we are spirit siblings (chapter and verse please)
to our Divine brother, (He remains far above you or I) Jesus Christ. We also believe that Satan is a son of God (Once again from the Bible seeing your a Christian, Lucifer is a created being not the “sone of God” he remains a cast out creation not “heir to Gods glory”)
, who has fallen (Cast out not fallen and to be judged), and been cast out of Heaven. If God created EVERYTHING, it stands to reason that he also created Lucifer (in the form of an “angel” “celestial” not “terrestrial” and his pride was his down fall)
. So logically, if God created everything, and Lucifer is a Fallen child of God (Wrong again, not a child but a servant of God, if you picked up the Bible and studied just a bit you’d have this down)
Report Post », and Jesus Christ is the Divine Son of God. Then Satan is not only Christ’s brother, but our brother as well (Doctrine from hell, hold o
audiemurphy
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:28pmhankscram= idiot!
Report Post »your re not even a Christian ! you actually believe in darwins theory ya fool!
“I would rather know the secrets of the universe unrevealed to me in mortality and have an eternal life learning to do what my father does. The problem with so many believers is that they have Columbus syndrome – they refuse to see beyond the edge of the ocean and believe the earth is flat instead of seeing the bigger picture and believing the universe is to be explored after our mortal existence is finished.”
Your knowledge will further than what you now see. You think you will fall off the edge if you explore too far instead like all the rest in columbus’s day you will be limited in your knowledge and perhaps cause others to follow your narrow-mindedness .
TheLoneEagle
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:29pm@TASKMASTER:
What is the Gospel that Paul the Apostle is speaking of? The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was taught from the Time of Adam to the Death of the Apostles. The Gospel is Jesus Christ is that we have Faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer. That we repent of our sins and transgressions. That we are baptism by immersion for the remission of our sins. That we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost to our constant companion. And that we endure to the end, that we may return to the presence of God, for this life is the time to prepare to meet God.
Does the Latter-day Saint Church teach anything that does not follow this: Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Enduring to the End? No, it does not. Thus the counsel of the Apostle Paul to the Galatians is not applicable as there is not another gospel being taught than that of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ.
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:29pm@taskmaster ~ You quote scripture as if you understand it yet you can’t understand straight to the point explanations from various people on here commenting about Mormons. Your craft is exposed and your judgmental ways are in direct conflict with the gospel of Christ, especially when your learning’s base is second-hand at best, deliberate at worst, and on a shaky foundation regardless.
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:44pmTaskmaster. You tried your best, but your points simply don’t add up. I would stay and debate this with you more… but I am on my way out the door. Please don‘t think I just couldn’t refute your brilliant logic. Such as Lucifer was a created being,… Created by God, but somehow that wouldn’t qualify him as a “child” of God, such as you or I. Be well, Mr. Taskmaster, sir. I look forward to proving you wrong about MY beliefs at another time.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:47pm@Darren,
Nobody should listen to my opinion about the mormon church. Instead, go read Journal of Discourses, a mormon book that has the sermons of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. That’s all you need to read to know about the mormon beliefs.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:49pmLUCKYWON, Let me be clear and I don’t want any misunderstanding, your church teaches salvation through works. Fact, you church teaches tithing, Fact, your church teaches salvation through LDS and no other, Fact. Your ignorance of salvation without works which contradicts Jesus Christ revelations to the apostle Paul are simply blasphemies. I’m not ignorant of your faith, yet you are of Christ and his work and the work of the spirit in sealing those saved upon belief in Christ works for redemption. Man your so damn religious its a shame, you base your salvation on the claims of a man and I on God. Smith was a liar and has mislead many.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:57pm@LuckyWon,
You said: “It is NOT your right to state what I believe for me. That is only something Satan would do.”
That is what the mormon prophets do – they state what is right for you to believe. Thus . . .
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:00pmDARREN, Which Gospel, Gospel of the Grace of God, Gospel of the Kingdom, Gospel of the promise land, Gospel of the Law, Gospel of the King. My God man your claim isn’t clear enough in Biblical terms be more specific and be careful one of these is actually for the gentiles of which you are one, the others don’t pertain to you. So please tell me which one.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:13pmYou can’t get a “temple recommend” unless you give ten percent of your income to the mormon church. That means mormons don’t let other mormons have full temple privileges unless that person is giving ten percent of their income to the mormon church. It’s literally called being “worthy.”
The left hand may not know what the right hand is doing, but the mormon bishop sure knows.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:21pmhank;
“Nobody should listen to my opinion about the mormon church.”
We finally agree!
“Instead, go read Journal of Discourses, a mormon book that has the sermons of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. That’s all you need to read to know about the mormon beliefs.”
You cannot be more wrong. Journal of Discourse is NOT DOCTRINE though it’s freely available to anyone who would like to read them.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:51pmLUCKYWON
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:44pm
Read between the lines:
Report Post »Taskmaster. You tried your best,(not really but it tells me your either converted Catholic or just born in this religion, please keep in mind religion is mans way to attempt to reach God and the cross was Gods way to reach man)
but your points simply don’t add up.(I thinks it’s your claim to Christianity is not based on the Bible but some dogma written by some man and you personally put more weight on the Smith novel then on the Bible)
I would stay and debate this with you more… but I am on my way out the door. Please don‘t think I just couldn’t refute your brilliant logic.(Sorry but I know if we sat face to face my doctrine over your religion would win, I know this because my father and God gave to man kind a gift ever you can’t completely grasp, yet it is clearly revealed in the Bible for those who ask for the revelation of his eternal gift and maybe one day you will ask and it will be shown) Such as Lucifer was a created being,… Created by God( as a servant of God and an angel who rebelled and was cast out, not a son of God or an equal to Christ or even me, I am by all Biblical accounts seated with Christ at the right hand of God while is cast out)
, but somehow that wouldn’t qualify him as a “child” of God (no he will be finally judged and cast for eternity in the fire of hell, sorry)
, such as you or I. Be well, Mr. Taskmaster, sir. I look forward to proving you wrong about
taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:14pmTHELONEEAGLE Read between the lines.
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:29pm
@TASKMASTER:
What is the Gospel that Paul the Apostle is speaking of? (The gospel of the grace of God, which in time past was hidden, does that ring truth in your study or did you miss the verse and chapter?)
The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was taught from the Time of Adam to the Death of the Apostles( heads up, that’s the Gospel of the Kingdom, sorry)
(Nope not the same Gospel, it was hid? didn’t see it did you, grab your concordance).
The Gospel is Jesus Christ is that we have Faith in (Nope it‘s not we have faith it’s he has the faith and faithfulness to do as promise, this is scripture, Paul please)
Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer. That we repent of our sins and transgressions (again what is repent? define).
That we are baptism by immersion for the remission of our sins (Nope, Eph 2 clearly lays out our baptism, not water no no, by the holy spirit).
That we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost to our constant companion. And that we endure to the end, that we may return to the presence of God, for this life is the time to prepare to meet God.
Does the Latter-day Saint Church teach anything that does not follow this: Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Enduring to the End? No, it does not. Thus the counsel of the Apostle Paul to the Galatians is not applicable as there is not another gospel being taught than that of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:27pmtheloneagle, sounds quite cute by the way seeing your not totally alone. Anyways. continued for you,
Does the Latter-day Saint Church teach anything that does not follow this: Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Enduring to the End? No( because you all think your replacing Israel and her blessed hope, you hold onto the “Gospel of the kingdom, preach by Jesus while in the flesh yet you fail to acknowledge one scripture “2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.” What to do, What to do?) , it does not. Thus the counsel, (Sorry old man, you cling onto your lost hope and yet freedom is at hand. Reach
(Hey this is not coucil, take a second and see who gave this “council” to him, I‘m sure you have no clue but I’ll direct you to where he got it, do some study in the book of Acts and then fall on your knees and ask for forgiveness.) of the Apostle Paul to the Galatians is not applicable (do you really believe that the one chosen to save the gentiles was given such a small task that his revelations received are to be discarded? Man you are without hope and lost)
Report Post »as there is not another gospel being taught than that of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ,(yo you don’t know the Bible even if I hit you in the head with it, you must be a Catholic convert, wanting spiritualism and finding nothing, sorry dude but your position is just pure religion no
taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:42pmRICHARD THE LION-HEARTED I hope you can read between the lines:
Report Post »Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:29pm
@taskmaster ~ You quote scripture as if you understand it yet you can’t understand straight to the point explanations from various people on here commenting about Mormons. Your craft is exposed and your judgmental ways are in direct conflict with the gospel of Christ
( you hoser remember we are here to stand up for the Gospel, this is the Gospel of the grace of God, not pervert it with some perverted mans attempt to recreate Gods plan in his image, which He exposed in do course, Ephesians 3:9 “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”, so if your lame attempt is to paint me as someone who doesn’t understand the Gospel then you have taken on the wrong man. Your failure to understand God does not change his mind is you first failure, the second is not to lump all the Gospels into on basket, Sorry)
, especially when your learning’s (did you mean leaning’s?) base is second-hand at best, (not like Smith admitting he was sticking his head in a cap???? and here comes the new revelations) deliberate at worst, and on a shaky foundation regardless. (Get this quite straight and this is why mormons are not Christians, your last statement is proof you through away the apostles letters, and why, simple it is contradictory to the Bible. Sorry
filiusdracul
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:56pmThere are two types of churches: 1. Churches that were formed by men to praise God (which is great!) and 2. Churches that were formed by God for the benefit of men (also great!), but as we read in the bible, “church type 2” requires a prophet (at least while Christ himself is on sabbatical), so yes Mormons will claim a living prophet. They’d be stupid not to.
Report Post »MAnderson1965
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 12:30amI find it peculiar how a lot of people, especially those in politics, like to take “snip-its” of a person’s monologue (or conversation), and present it to others totally out of context, and not at as it was originally meant to be understood. For instance, I read here someone mentioning some words issued by one of the church’s past presidents, Lorenzo Snow. The author of the statement did not quote President Snow verbatim, therefore he was presented completely out of context, which leads others astray from the truth.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 2:29am@ TASKMASTER78
Report Post »Your screen name and your postings are like poetry:
together they evoke the image of an Egyptian taskmaster mocking the ancient
Isrealites. An ugly image, but poetry does not have to be pretty.
Latter-Day-Soldier
Posted on August 13, 2011 at 7:28amAs a church member serving in the military, I have come across a few individuals like Mr. hankscram, he is his own worst enemy.
Report Post »The dark side of the force is strong in this one :P
Latter-Day-Soldier
Posted on August 13, 2011 at 7:33am@ taskmaster78: Our doctrine teaches that everyone in heaven, on earth and everyone who got kicked out of heaven are spiritual brothers and sisters….that means you and me too my brotha-from-anotha-mutha <:D
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:38pm“Once they find out that Jesus Christ is like third in the hierarchy there. Really was about Joseph Smith. Actually, Mormonism is closer to Islam because in Islam Jesus is also a revered figure. He’s a wonderful prophet. He’s just not the ultimate prophet. You know, he’s like the middle act. He’s certainly not the headliner.””
Really Meher?
[PASSAGE QUOTE]
10Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
[END QUOTE]
What’s divinly second rate about that? Can anything in Islam compare?
3 Nephi 11
Report Post »the hawk
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:57pmGood man ! Stand up for your faith !……………….
Report Post »the hawk
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:00pmMahr is a MORON ! ! ! !
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:03pmWhat about Moroni?
Joesph Smith is the Muhammed of Mormonism.
Anyone who has studied comparitive religion knows this.
Both Mohammed and Joesph Smith were illiterate nare-do-wells.
Both claimed an Angel (Mohammend claimed Gabrielle and Smith claimed Moroni) visited them and “revealed” the “truth.”
Both had “revelations” when the need for them arose (ie taking young brides)
Both cited and credited Jesus but claimed they superceded him.
Nothing agaisnst Mormons but your religion is just more obviously fake and madeup than the ones that came before you.
Jesus, Moses and Abraham were also frauds.
Cheers
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:12pmHank,
Let’s view this for a moment, Jesus based on the book of revelations is God, “alpha & omega” thus he was never created but was and always will be. Yet Smith holds a doctrine which is contrary to any Christians hold, but is closer to blasphemy as one could see. The “church” claim is that both Jesus is and was Lucifers brother, yet no scripture found since or before Mr. Smith would allude to such a claim. This doctrine is and will be judged by God, I know the words and titles are similar to Christians, yet you claim the “heavenly father” yet it’s like calling a ruben sandwich a ham and cheese it still is a ruben. The religion is not Christian and can never be coupled with it, it remains a mans fantasy and will go down in history and judged by God my father as false.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:34pmTaskmaster;
“Let’s view this for a moment, Jesus based on the book of revelations is God, “alpha & omega” thus he was never created but was and always will be.”
Well, then go to the source:
” 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in bwhite raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
Revelation’s 3
So, who is Christ’s Father?
“6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Revelations 1
God has a Father? What beings would this scripture be referring to?
You sure you got your interpretations correct?
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:46pm@Darren
Joesph Smith was convicted of “necropsy” in 1826.
Pretty weird and disturbing.
Have you read the details of the trial?
Would you like me to share them?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:41pmMr butcher;
“Joesph Smith was convicted of “necropsy” in 1826.’
Say what???
Help me out with this one:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=joseph+smith+necropsy&FORM=HPDTLB&PC=HPDTDF&MKT=en-us
I find no results. Smith was on trail for treasure hunting and according to all surviving fist-hand records of that trail he was aquitted. Would you like to talk about that? I have an excellent link to that trial.
http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/30.2Madsen%2012a5c181-05a1-4e48-b7a4-2d039c4c16f0.pdf
So, if you cannot show me where Joseph Smith was found guilty of “necropsy” then the only thing disturbing here is how stupidly you’ve presented yourself.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:59pm@Darren,
but you will acknowledge that Joseph Smith claimed he could find treasures, won’t you? And what did he use? A seer stone? Something like that?
Interestingly, didn’t he look at a rock in his hat to interpret the golden plates? Is the rock Joseph Smith used still around?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:12pmhank;
“but you will acknowledge that Joseph Smith claimed he could find treasures, won’t you? And what did he use? A seer stone? Something like that?”
Yes.
“Interestingly, didn’t he look at a rock in his hat to interpret the golden plates? Is the rock Joseph Smith used still around?”
Yes to Joseph Smith translating the golden plates and as for if seer stones are used today I think they are but there’s no information about them as I am aware of. The idea of seer stones is not Mormon but biblical.
ther idea of seer stones isn’t
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 11:03pmDARREN Please read between the line, and remember this is a straw man in my book.
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:34pm
Taskmaster;
“Let’s view this for a moment, Jesus based on the book of revelations is God, “alpha & omega” thus he was never created but was and always will be.” (one more time, you can call a ham sandwich a ruben but it isn’t, he says what? Revelations 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” So do you find this blasphemous? Here he calls himself God, the Almighty? He takes the title of God the Father and shows no shame?
Well, then go to the source:
” 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in bwhite raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
(Please you chose this as your place of refuge to hold on to your “prophet” again “Revelation 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” To Be Continued.
Revelation’s 3
So, who is Christ’s Father?
“6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Revelations 1
God has a Father? What beings would this scripture be referring to?
You sure
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 11:23pmContinued, Darren answer my question as I finish yours, what Gospel are you referring to????? so far no answer, grab you Bible you’ll find a number of them, I name 4 for you. Now for your question one more straw man.
Revelation’s 3
So, who is Christ’s Father?, He has no father, you assume much when asking this question, one you assume he was created, yet your wrong because you hold a weak idea of creation. He “Jesus” claims his position and he does so vaguely in the “gospels”, Gospel of the Kingdom of God promise to whom??? yep David. But explicitly He is who he claims, He is God in the Flesh. Scriptures are the witness to this truth.
“6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Darren who is speaking and to who is this speaking of, “kings and priest unto God” is Israel, I don’t know your point, this is a promise to Israel, and Christ is the promise Messiah from ages, yet your telling me this doesn’t make him the “alpha & omega”?
Revelations 1
God has a Father? What beings would this scripture be referring to?
Obviously your a born mormon if not you failed to really we are his showmanship, we hold a soul, life, spirit, which seeks for spiritual things, and we are flesh and have a body. God is Father, Son, Spirit. Yet they are one. Tough nut I know. God became Flesh. Christ was born of the Spirit.
Does God have a creator????? or was he the Alpha & Omega? yep I’m sure
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 11:26pm@Darren
Opps, I miswrote and misspoke.
Joesph Smith committed necromancy when he dug up his dead brother and brought him with him so he could find the “seer stones” that lead to the magic plates that revealed the children of israel went to america (among other things).
He was convicted, however, of “glass-looking” which, at the time, was the crime of pretending to find lost treasure. You know, kinda like the Book of Mormon….and religion in general?
Did you know he died with a gun in his hand?
What do you know about the Mormon Wars?
Did you know that Utah was not permitted to become a state until it gave polygamy?
Did you know that Blacks were not allowed to hold high position or be considered equals in the mormon church until 1979?
Did you know that the Angel Moroni is just a moron with an “I” attatched?
[———————
sorry, its hard to take the mormon religion seriously. I don’t mean to insult you.
Its just so obviously fake.
The Jews, Muslims and Christians have centuries of misinformation, mistranslation, tradition, the rise of culture and civilization to hide behind.
Mormons have no such defence.
sorry.
Report Post »Dotty4CommonSense
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 11:55pmAmen…thank you, Brother Darren! It gets maddening to read some of these posts who only know “talking points” about Mormonism. I don’t worry about Maher — he‘s just a total idiot with too much say in the ’celebrity world.‘ I worry more about some that post here who either don’t know enough and thus, they are dangerous! These type know enough to sound knowledgeable but obviously haven’t read in the bible to ask God with all faith in our Father in Heaven, whether the Book of Mormon is true or not. As Mormons, we know the bible is the word of God, as “far as it is translated correctly.” If people would stop and consider how many thousands of times the bible has been translated, they should realize that mistakes were made — and I don’t mean life-altering mistakes, but very important ones that does make the bible somewhat suspect. Also, the Book of Mormon is, and always has been, another testament of Jesus Christ to be used alongside the Bible. Also, when they say we Mormons aren’t Christians is just, I think, their misunderstanding. You and I know that “our Jesus” is the Jesus who died on the cross for all of us, and we will live again some day because of the Atonement. Details, if desired, should go to mormon.org for questions that can be easily and correctly answered. Someone also said Glenn is afraid to debate Maher — to which, I say bull****! Glenn, I think, would LOVE to have the chance to debate ANYTHING w/Maher!
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 12:14amMr butcher;
Did you read my link? According to all accounts exiting, Joseph smith was aquitted. This does not mean “convicted”. The link I provided you is the best historical argument you can find regarding the 1826 trial.
You still have to help me out here. The only reference I’ve found regarding Joseph Smith digging up “his dead brother” comes from the Salamander Letters, proven to be a fraud and which lead to the murder of innocents by its author, and those letters referred to a rumor about Joseph digging up Alvin. WHEN WAS JOSEPH SMITH **CONVICTED** of “necromancy”? I get nothing on the web regarding any “conviction” by any court about necromancy.
1) After you and yourse have been beaten by mobs resulting in the death of one of you children, then cry foul for someone “having a gun” when assasinated. By the way, not only did he have a gun but he fired it too. Good for Smith on both accounts.
2) Yes, I know a bit about the Mormon Wars. Thanks for asking.
3) Yes on polygamy.
4) Yes on the blacks.
5) Yes on “Moroni”’s spelling.
If you don’t take the mormon religion seriously then I wish you God speed all the same.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 2:51amThe comparison of “Mormonism” with Islam is more cosmetic (a prophet and a book) than anything. Upon closer inspection, it is clear that Islam is much closer to “Trinitarian” Christianity than it is to “Mormon” Christianity. Islam is esentially an Arab adaptation of Gnosticism (Mohammud’s uncle was a Gnostic hermit), thus it denies the resurrection of Jesus Christ and teaches that Jesus became a mere spirit upon His crucifixion. “Trinitarian” Christianity was a political compromise with Gnosticism to satisfy the population of the Roman Empire of the 4th Century (which sought a godhead that was in line with the teachings of Greek philosophers). “Mormon” Chistianity does not adopt ANY of the Gnostic concepts and disregards them as the philosophies of men. basically “primative”
Report Post »Micmac
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:37pmThis guy really is a pinhead. Why does Blaze spend time on these guys…there seems to be alot of ink spilled over BM (appropriate imho). Aren’t there more important subjects? I’m sure we all can name at least 20 now. If you must post about him, instead of posting his dribble, how about an expose on the dweeb.
NoBama 2012
Report Post »LinkedIn G
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:43pmMaybe they are trying to be fair and balanced.
Report Post »jim
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:37pmThe left has ordered Bulldog Bill to start the attack campaign against Romney… it will be interesting to see if normal everyday lefties can stomach voting for Romney over Obama in 2012.
Or will they just sit home and not vote, creating a huge gap in Obama’s 2008 electorate numbers.
You’ve got to feel for the regular stupid Democrat or Independent working man, who put all his hopes and dreams into voting for the equal opportunity president, and is now sitting there watching his pink slip arrive, his house foreclosed on, his stock portfolio disappearing, his savings burning up, and thinking… hmmm… food, job? Or a Mormon?
Bulldog Bill will do everything he can to make Mormonism worse than starvation.
Report Post »Micmac
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:48pmOn voting day the right needs to advertise for “free food, abortions and housing symposiums” that promises everyone at least 1 of the 3 free…held out in the middle of nowhere. Free bus rides. Starts at 6:00 am.
NoBama 2012
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:50pmI think a lot of moderate democrats will vote for Romney. Funny, conservative Mormons will also vote for liberal Romney instead of a conservative Christian. They’d rather see a mormon in office than a conservative Christian. It could end up really hurting a true conservative candidates chances.
Report Post »Micmac
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:55pmIn the same way blacks vote fo’ NoBama, Mormons will vote for RINO Mitt. Pretty easy to see.
NoBama 2012
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:12pmMy favorite was Cain but his oopsie in apologizing to the Muslim Brotherhood left me to conclude that he doesn‘t know exactly what he’s talking about. So Michelle Bachman’s now my favorite. But, I will indeed vote for Romney over Obama in 2012. Anyone who will not vote for Romney because he‘s Mormon I really don’t care. All I have to say to these fools is, “good luck with that.”
Report Post »xyfbx
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:35pm@HANKSCRAM Mormons are never told who to vote for but are conservative in nature. Many did not vote for Harry Reid, a Mormon for that reason. I would not vote for Romney because I don’t think he is the best candidate. He should have been out in front on this debt ceiling thing for instance. I wouldn’t have ever voted for Palin, but as time goes on, she learns and grows and she seems one of the strongest potential candidates but with no chance of winning the presidency. She probably thinks Mormons aren’t Christian but as a Mormon, I would vote for her over Romney because of her growth over time.
Report Post »notforreal
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:37pmThis guy just reeks of arrogance.
Report Post »SerenityPlease
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:36pmI was born and nurtured in the Mormon faith. The first article of faith: We believe in God the eternal father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. Another article of faith admonishes that Jesus Christ atones for our sins. Isn’t that the basis of Christianity? Other Christian churches and atheists like Bill M.should follow the example of the Mormon religion and stop bashing religions (like Mormonism) they know nothing about. In all my 63 years I have never heard a Mormon leader criticize another religion. Go to lds.org and learn about the massive service Mormon religion renders.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:41pmMormons believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Even scarier, mormons believe that the current President of the mormon church is a prophet. This is just like the FLDS and Warren Jeffs.
Begs the question, will Romney listen to someone he believes is a prophet – the president of his church, or will he listen to the conservatives. Have to think he’ll listen to someone he thinks is a prophet.
False prophets. Scary stuff. The bible has amply warned us.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:48pmHank;
The FLDS are not affiliated with the mainstream LDS Church. Why do you constantly conflate Mormonism with what it is not. I’ve yet to see any desire in you to earn about the LDS faith other than to ridicule it. Now you take LDS beliefs and make it comparable to child molestation. Do research and learn first before you report. Better yet, seek out and **serve** Mormons in a manner that uplifts both you and them. In other words, live the Bible and its teachings instead of trying to impress yourself with some form of pseudointellect.
Your obsession with denouncing the LDS Church is childish and has nothing to do with teacing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Report Post »CrazyJ
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:52pmMormonism no a christian religion. false prophets and false books of “god” will lead u astray. it is closer to islam than Christianity because both are satanic.
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:52pmHankscram said….. “Mormons believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Even scarier, mormons believe that the current President of the mormon church is a prophet.”
Hanks… will you PLEASE explain to me why that is scary? There were living prophets all through the BIBLE, and that covered a period of time over 7 thousand years long. There were lots of periods of time in the bible that also didn’t have a current living prophet. What I think IS scary is the thought that you think God, after providing guides for his children for so long, would suddenly go silent and turn his back on us. Now that is scary.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:54pm@serenityplease,
you say you’ve never heard a mormon leader criticize other religions?
Have you read Joseph Smith’s account of his first vision. He says that God and Jesus appeared to him and told him that ALL other religions are false. The founder of the mormon religion says God and Jesus told him all other religions are false. Wow. That’s why mormons do baptism for the dead – where they actually get baptized for people who died – so the person can get into the highest level of heaven. What, its not enough to be a solid, practicing Christian? You have to be baptized into themormon church?
Report Post »SpunkyGal
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:00pm@Hankscram
What’s so terrible about believing in prophets? Everyone in the bible believed in them and relied on them. No one denies that Mormons believe in prophets. But they also believe in only one true Savior of our souls, Jesus Christ. All prophets, like in the bible, are here to testify of Christ. That’s not a very scary concept to me.
What I find interesting is how controversial Mormons are. Does any other Christian church take the kind of heat Mormons do? I think it‘s crazy that people get their panties in a bunch about a religion that doesn’t harm others and is filled with fairly decent people. (Not that they don’t have their “interesting” and crazy folks, as do all religions. Guess that happens when you aren’t exclusive.)
Report Post »TheLoneEagle
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:10pm@HANKSCRAM
[QUOTE]
Joseph Smith-History: 1:18-20 (http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng)
18My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”
20He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time….
[END QUOTE]
I believe that is what you are referring to.
Report Post »Seede
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 2:35pmSERENITYPLEASE -
Report Post »If I may – Does not the Mormon faith declare that god is flesh and blood and that he became one of many gods? Do not the Mormons also claim that god has a wife of flesh and does indeed produce children? Does not the Mormons also believe that Jesus was one of these children of your god and and his wife? Is not Jesus a created being in your theology? Your theology declares that humans existed in spirit form before they became flesh. I could go on and on but as you may realize all of the above is not believed by the early Christian church.
Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:34amHank;
After reading the review I cited I left with the impression that Palmer proclaimed ot be a faithful member when tere is direct evidence that as early as the mid 1980s he started working on his book and that he did so because his testimony of the LDS Church was somewhat shattered by the Salamander Letters. The Salamander Letters were the creation of a man by the name of Hoffman. Hoffman admitted in court that the letters were his own creation, a forgery, and it is my understanding that as evidence of the hoax came closer to him he started making home made bombs to protect his hoax. I do believe at least one person was killed from that and that it was a bomb that went off prematurely which stopped him. It should have torn him to shreds but miraculously did not. despite the fraud, Palmer expressed no interest in reevaluating his view ofthe LDS Church and began his book. So, while he was not a “faithful member” he claimed to be and after retiring from the Church Educational System, he published his book. In othetr words, he lied about himself. furhtermore, he blamed his publisher for including ‘an insider’s view’ nthe title and later changed the title to make his book look more authentic. In other words Palmer did exactly what you accuse the LDS Church of doing.
Good job. What book is next?
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:58am@Darren,
I was in SLC when the whole Hoffman thing went down. It was a big deal, needless to say. The mormon leaders were explaining how a white salamander was symbolic or representative of something – an angel as I recall. The church was in heavy duty mode – explaining how the letters made sense and fit into mormon theology. You can probably read about it if you look hard enough. Then it turned out to be a scam. Like I say, no matter what anyone says about the church or what information comes out, the mormon church will do its best to explain it away – even when its a forgery, like the Salamander letters. You could read Palmer’s book yourself. He actually doesn’t reject the mormon church, did not resign, and did not want to be excommunicated – and I don’t think he was. He presented his own interesting vision for the future of the mormon church. His idea in the end was that the Book of Mormon is not literally true, but spiritually informative . . . sort of like mormons say could be the case with the egyptian papyrus – not literally about Abraham, but a divine interpretation. (not a precise analogy, but something there.) there are mormons – like middle way mormons – that seem to be interested in this interpretation of the book of mormon. Even church scholars are moving slightly away from the Book of Abraham as well – you can find that if you want too.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:26pmHank;
I actually posted my Palmer reply on the wrong subthread but oh well.
LOL, what church leaders were justifying the Salamander Letters? Were you sitting in the pews listening to them or are you telling mwe this second or third hand? And if the Church leaders were not the First Presidency then you can safely dismiss their rhetoric as vomit for that’s all it is worth. There is no conspiracy or damage control to “cover up” what the LDS Church has said regarding the Salaander Letters. According to how I understand the LDS Church. there may be public or semi-public announcements to correct what various church leaders said to justify the Salamander Letters but hte First Presidency regularly does that. this is to help ensure that correct doctrine is taught and understood as well as to protect the integrity of the LDS Church. It is not to “cover up ” anything.
Regarding the Book of Abraham, the thesis I presented to you says that Joseph Smith had a story of Abraham; not an Egyptian story reinterpreted by Joseph Smith to tell the story of Abraham. The reinterpretation would have been done centuries ago. So the story Joseph smith had on Egyptian paryrus was literally about Abraham. And you’re nuts if you think mormon scholars are “slightly movidg away” from the BOA. At least no scholar I know of though as with all scholarly works, different works will vary.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:33pmhank;
Regarding the interpretation of the Book of Mormon. If people do not think it literally tre then that’s between them and God. There is nothing in that which would affect anyone’s standing in the Church. I personally would warn against that nterpretation simply because I see it as getting set up for even bigger and more significant spiritual hardships. Just like if people do not think the resurrection of Jesus Christ literally happened but it is a god spiritual message is between that individual and God, think as such could render such an individual to astray further from Jesus being the literal Savior of the world and for each individual.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:47pmhank;
it is very interesting and to me, very telling, how you cherry pick your life in Salt Lake City to only support your denouncement of the LDS Church. As I pointed out to you earlier, the fact that no secret is kept regarding the LDS belief in living prophets and that you should know as much having lived in Salt Lake City yourself was reason enough to not say Mormons hide teir beliefs regarding prophets.
Not only did Kakauer, a likable author to you, live in a mann which you say the LDS Church is wrong fr doing but you yourself live in a manner which you accuse the LDS Church of doing: selecting what to teach that only looks good for you. I think the word “hypocrite” was created a long time ago.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 5:13pmGordon Hinckley directed the mormon church to buy the salamander letters – so named because the letters discussed a White Salamander appearing in a vision to Joseph Smith. Yes, the mormon church acquired the salamander letters at the direction of future Prophet Hinckley. He didn’t find it odd that a White Salamander appeared to Smith, he did not get a burning in the bosom letting him know he was being conned, the Lord did not direct Hinckley . . . he, the church president and quorum of twelve acquired the Salamander letters and explained them.
Turns out a guy made up the Salamander letters – just made stuff up – without even putting a rock in his hat. It’s not the first time that the quorum of twelve fell for something that a guy made up.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 6:25pmHank;
“Gordon Hinckley directed the mormon church to buy the salamander letters – so named because the letters discussed a White Salamander appearing in a vision to Joseph Smith. Yes, the mormon church acquired the salamander letters at the direction of future Prophet Hinckley.”
Yes, e did. But buying some letters which have affected the inegrity of the church you represent is HARDLY justifying the content of the letters. You said that church leaders were justifying the Salamander Letters. That the content of the letters do comply with church history and its teachings. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints is perhaps the largest collector of ALL materials 9positive and negative) that talk about the LDS Church. It is a church of records and history and believes that all materials should be preserved. All these matierials wil serve as testimonies before God regarding the actions of individuals. How this all plays out before God I do not think anybody knows but the LDS do believe in doing their part before God.
(continued)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 7:37pmHank;
Assumin my continued gets published, you gotta read the “Abuses in the media” section. This wasa talk given by elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He has extensive law exierience and even served on the Utah Supreme Court before serving full time in the LDS Church.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=309b71ec9b17b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 7, 2011 at 1:07am@Darren, about whether I was spewing vomit when I said mormon church leaders were attempting to explain the White Salamander letters before they knew it was a fraud:
August 16, 1985, the Mormon Apostle Dallin Oaks:
“Another source of differences in the accounts of different witnesses is the different meanings that different persons attach to words. We have a vivid illustration of this in the recent media excitement about the word ‘salamander’ in a letter Martin Harris is supposed to have sent to W.W. Phelps over 150 years ago. All of the scores of media stories on that subject apparently assume that the author of that letter used the word ‘salamander’ in the modern sense of a ‘tailed amphibian.’
“One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of ‘salamander,’ which may even have been the primary meaning in this context in the 1820s…. That meaning… is ‘a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire.’…
“A being that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the Angel Moroni:… the use of the words white salamander and old spirit seem understandable.
“In view of all this, and as a matter of intellectual evaluation, why all the excitement in the media, and why the apparent hand-wringing among those who profess friendship or membership in the Church?” (”1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” pages 22-23)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 7, 2011 at 5:07amHank;
I do need to clarify that if the curch leaders attempted to incorporate the Salamander Letters into official LDS doctrine, save it be from the First Presidency, reject it just like you would vomit. that includes from Dallin H. Oaks. Only the living prophet has such authority to so boldly declare somethng as part of LDS Church doctrine. Even after that it will go through the process of being uniminously acceptd by the first Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, presented before the general priesthood body for a ssustaiing vote andthen before the general membership of the Church for anther sustaining vote,. **THEN** it is offical doctrine.
I binged your citation from “CES” to “pages 22-23″ and only found te excerpt you cited above. On answerbag.ocm I read the exceprt and the subsequent post mocking Oaks for citing the holy Spirit to confirm truth and how it obviously, after the excert portraying Oaks as accepting the content of the Salamander letters, didn’t confirm to him (or to the LDS leadership) tha the letters were afraud.
If you read the article of my link you’d read that Elder Oaks spoke of the very CES symposium you cited him as speaking. Here’s that part of that:
(continued)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 7, 2011 at 5:22amhank (con’t);
Without the full context of Oak‘s speach I could only infer that he may have been wondering why the media deliberately makes the LDS Church look stupid when it doesn’t need to. Why report a “salamander’ strictly as a reptile and as something spiritual?
It is borderline maddening that you would ignore a first-hand account of a symposiumn speech and apparently go to a third-hand source which was most likely decisively anti-Mormon to portray elder oaks as supporting a letter he himself expressed doubt in supporting. In the study of history, first-hand sources are to be trusted the most. when confirmed with external evidence, that first-hand source is considered most reliable.
Your obvious objective shown on this entire thread is beyond maddening. Here we have a confessed forger AND MURDERER and the Los Angeles Times confessing to relying upon this person who confessed to forgery and murder as their source to make the LDS Church look corrupt and deceptive and your only course of action is to point to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints as deceptive? good grief. And you allege Joseph Smith may have been “mentally ill”?
So, after you clean up the vomit form any LDS leader who attempted to concsolidate the Salamander Letters into official LDS doctrine, clean up your own. Yes, han, you spewed it. A lot of it.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 7, 2011 at 1:12pm@Darren,
I’m not sure what you are talking about. I read the entire Dallin Oaks letter – the entire letter he wrote – intended for the mormon faithful. I inserted a snippet here – can’t put the whole thing in. Don’t know what site you found the letter, but its in many locations on the internet.
You’re upset at me because this is not a revelation to the prophet confirmed by the apostles and voted on by the membership?
I simply said church leaders were defending the salamander letters – trying to explain them away. Its what the mormon church has been doing for years . . . . back when guys from the original quorum of twelve were leaving – like Mclellum – it continues to this day. There is nothing particularly odd about the White Salamander thing – Dallin Oaks made good points, based on mormon historical perspective and Joseph Smith’s previous activities.
Report Post »OneofMany
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:34pmI think this guy is a dope, but you can’t argu with his logic… I went to college in Utah and had many, many, many long debates with Mormons and that relgion has literally ZERO proof of it’s divinity… To them Jesus is Satan’s brother!! What??! Yep… I feel there are probably a lot of low level Mormons (Glen Beck level) who just don’t really know or care about theological doctrine) that are probably saved because Mormon’s sort of trick you into their cult… So if you don’t know your bible (and if you’re not already a Christian, who would?) they speak of Jesus as their Savior and I believe God will judge people on what they believed… low level Mormon‘s don’t even know the Mormon belief system.
Now when you start getting married in the Temple or become more of a leader..well, now you’ve got some explaining to do…
Islam on the other hand at least has a legitimate theory on their origin… God promised Abraham that his first born son would be the inheriter of all his blessings…. but God said his first born would come from his wife Sarah…. the problem? Abraham thought God was forgetting the promise and so took matters into his own hands and had a child with Sarah’s slave girl (at the request of Sarah – so she could claim the son as her own)… Enter Ishmael (Islam believes Ishmael is the son of the promise).. but Sarah had a child named Jacob (later changed to Israel) and God affirmed Israel was the son of promise..but you could at least see the confu
Report Post »cabnetdude
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:38pmOne of many true idiots..thats for sure.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:43pmIt is true mormons believe Jesus is satan’s spirit brother. Most will deny it, but a few honest mormons admit it. Mormons believe God has a wife, they live on a planet called Kolob – and, here’s the bizarre stuff – they believe God and his wife procreate to create spirits to insert into human bodies. This is worse the scientology.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:44pmSO what planet does Christ live on?
Report Post »Sicboy
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:44pmWOW. is this guy correct? Mormonism has a problem. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God himself. Satan has no equal with Jesus. And there are no “gold tablets”. Or any of that other “stuff” good old joe smith lied about.
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:46pmSorry, One of many. Many people here Can and Have argued with his faulty logic. Read the replies from actual Mormons to learn what we believe. Maher simply doesn’t know anything about Mormonism. If you want to learn more, go to LDS.ORG.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:48pmIt‘s true that most low level mormons don’t even know what the mormon church believes. I’ve talked to many. If you want to know what mormons believe – do NOT go to the anti-mormon website. Instead, go read Joseph Smith and Brigham Young’s sermons (mormons believe these guys were prophets). You can find the early (before the mormons started editing stuff) of these sermons in a book called Journal of Discourses. Its on the internet. That’s all you need to read to know what mormons believe. You’ll even find Brigham Young talking about the Adam/God principle – that Adam, the first man on earth, is now our God.
Report Post »Dr Truth
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:55pmDude, Mormon’s reading this are laughing at you right now. I am. You are so ignorant on the subject…. or you aren’t and you are horribly dishonest… but, I’ll give you benefit of the doubt.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:56pmMost of what Joseph Smith said turned out to be a fraud, but as the two guys from South Park who wrote the Book of Mormon play said when they won the Tony for best musical . . . . “Congratulations Joseph Smith, you won the Tony Award.” They really said that in their acceptance speech.
Report Post »Luckywon
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:59pmHankscram. While you are partly right, you completely miss the mark when it comes to the discourses. Mormons do NOT study those works. They were never put forth by the church as Doctrine that we believe. Not once. Therefore, the only people who study the discourses are people like you, who desire to try to discredit the church. However, you are not using Mormon doctrine. You are using the words of men, yes… Prophets, but still men, and these words have never been doctrine because men do get things twisted sometimes. Just like the prophets in the Bible did. It is nothing new. The only perfect being to EVER walk the earth was Jesus Christ. By the way. You sound a lot more like Satan, trying to lead people away from their beliefs in Christ, than you sound like Jesus Christ.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:59pmGo read Joseph Smith and Brigham Young’s sermons in the Journal of Discourses, Dr. Truth. Brigham Young talked about nine foot tall men living on the moon.
Can’t compare Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? Joseph Smith was shot while being held in a prison – held for ordering a newspaper printing press to be burned because it was printing stories about his fraud – and shot by men in the community angry at Joseph Smith for having sex with so many young girls in the community. Pedophilia is pedophelia, no matter how you try to justify it.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:06pmHank;
Despite the fact that last time we chatted I took a LOT of time explaining to you that not all of what Joseph Smith or Brigham young taught are Church doctrine, you still spew out such a conflating presentation about the LDS Church using. Joseph Smioth and Brigham Young prophets but also mortal men inherently subject to mortal limitations. As they read and studied the gospel and its scriptures, they had their own ideas and beliefs alongside of what God explicitly inspired them to teach regarding what is official LDS Church positions.
Anything outside of a universal acceptance by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and subsequentaly presented to the general priesthood leadership for for a sustaining vote and then to the general membership fora sustaining vote is NOT LDS doctrine but the personal beliefs of the person who expresed said beliefs. Presenting such beliefs as if they were LDS doctrine is only bearing false witness against your neighbor.
Good luck with that.
Report Post »TheLoneEagle
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:38pm@HANKSCRAM:
How about instead of reading the Journal of Discourses you read The Book of Mormon? How about you take up Moroni’s Challenge in Moroni 10:3-5 (http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng):
[QUOTE]
3Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.
4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.
[END QUOTE]
I issue a similar challenge to you, Hankscram. Read The Book of Mormon with an open-heart, seeking for a truth of knowledge on whether the Book of Mormon is true or false. Remove all doubt from your heart and with a blank slate. Have an honest and earnest to know whether or not these things are true. Read the Book of Mormon with that attitude and then get down on your knees and pray to Heavenly Father, through the power of the Holy Ghost, whether these things are true or not. If you do these things, I promise you you’ll receive
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:55pm@LuckyWon,
That’s my point. Mormons don’t study Journal of Discourses, a compilation of sermons by mormon prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. {Brigham Young said, by the way, that all of his sermons were as good as scripture.} Mormons don’t even want to talk about Journal of Discourses.
Why do mormons not study and teach the sermons of the mormon prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young – in the Journal of Discourses? Because its crazy talk. Those prophets said all of the beliefs that people are posting here on the Blaze. Mormons read these posts and truly believe people are making this stuff up. Why? Because Mormons don’t study the Journal of Discourses.
People just post what the mormon prophets said, and mormons say its a lie. Don’t punish the messengers. Read your own prophets sermons.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:01pm@LuckyWon,
I know that is what the mormon church teaches you – if anyone tries to tell you the mormon church is not true then that is Satan speaking. That is what your leaders have taught you. So, how can you be able to listen to information that shows your religion is built on a fraud – if you mind has been trained to believe that is satan talking. You can’t. The mormon church has used FEAR to keep you from listening to anything except what the mormon church wants you to hear. Can you admit you’ve been told that?
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:22pm@TheLoneEagle,
I read it. I studied with the missionaries. I lived with mormons. I’ve been to mormon services. I went to the library when the missionaries could not answer my questions. A library in Utah – before the internet. I read mormon history. I read as much as I could find straight from Smith, Brigham Young and others. I’m no expert. But I did study. And when I continued my meetings with the missionaries (back when it was a six meeting arrangement), they had no idea what I was talking about. They had never read what I had. They were oblivious to Joseph Smith’s own words. I found that troubling.
It wasn’t until decades later that I ever stumbled across the internet mormon sites. I had already read up on the Book of Abraham – the funeral pyre found in a N.Y. museum that had nothing to do with Abraham, contrary to Joseph Smith’s claims – but I did learn for the first time that there is no DNA evidence that Israeli’s migrated to America, as Joseph Smith taught.
Report Post »Servant Of YHVH
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:23pmHi encinom, I love you with a Godly love and I would like to welcome you to the Tea Party.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:03pmHank;
“Can’t compare Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? Joseph Smith was shot while being held in a prison – held for ordering a newspaper printing press to be burned because it was printing stories about his fraud – and shot by men in the community angry at Joseph Smith for having sex with so many young girls in the community. Pedophilia is pedophelia, no matter how you try to justify it.”
1) When assasinated, Joseph Smith was not in prison for burning down a newspress. That happened before and was completely exonerated from those charges. The LDS church subsequentially stood on solid legal grounds to sue for damages but chose not to in order to keep the peace with their neighbors. you may also wonder why the mormons had the legal right to esablish its own form of defense. The politicans of Illinois simply refused to protect their freedom of relgion. Probably because thsoe politicas were Christians. So instead, they chartered Mormon protection to the Mormons.
2) There is NO RECORD of Joseph Smith having sex with anybody but Emma Smith between which bore children. NONE. Now that you know that repating this false calim about Joseph smith being a pedophile without showing evidence that he did **have sex** with underaged girls you’d be outright lying. Having said that I would not be surprised if you did repeat this lie. Lying about Mormonism is your trademark.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 10:43pm@Darren,
Emma Smith, Joseph Smith’s lifelong wife, became a member of a different mormon sect than you belong to. When Joseph Smith died, the mormon church splintered. Emma became a member of the reorganized church of jesus christ of latter day saints. Joseph Smith’s son became the leader of that sect. So, is your sect the true one or the sect Joseph Smith’s son and wife joined.
There are many writings by mormons from the 1840‘s discussing Joseph Smith’s polygamy. I understand why you deny it. Because Joseph Smith publicly denied it until his death. So, if you said it was true, you would be calling Joseph Smith a liar. But he was a polygamist. There is undeniable evidence and many mormons actually reluctantly admit it now.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 12:26amhankscram;
When Joseph Smith died there were questions as to who the proper authority belonged to. The vast majority followed Brigham young out west (fulfilling one of Joseph Smith’s prophesies) while those who thought the authority should go to Joseph Smith’s eldest son convinced Emma Smith to join their cause. They became known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus christ of Latter-Day saints and are located mainly in Ohio. No, I do not think their‘s is god’s true church and yes, i do think The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as located in Utah, is god’s true church.
Hank, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and no he did not holfd that knowledge until his death. He fully disclosed it but only after God chastened him for doing so. He did not fully agree with polygamy and practiced it only under God’s explicit command (perhpas to restore **all things** both Old Testament and New).
but my challenge to you which you have not answered is what evidence is there that Joseph Smith had sexual relatons with ANYONE except Emma Smith? you’re the one who accuses the LDS Church of hiding the truth. So, now that you have several times on this very thread accused Joseph Smith of having sexual relations with minors and other people’s wives, provide your evidence.
Otherwise, shut your lying trap up!
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 11:21am@Darren,
the mob shot Joseph Smith, in part, because he was running around molesting young girls in the community. You could read Jon Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven.” Or, Grant Palmer’s “An Insdider’s View of Mormon Origins.” Palmer is a mormon who was disfellowshipped for writing the book. I‘m sure you’ve heard of both of these men, and I‘m sure you don’t care for either. There are dozens of other books on the subject.
Funny thing, I have never – NEVER – heard a mormon acknowledge any written work by anyone who said the mormon church was not true. Its always an attack on the person. Much of the writing that claims the mormon church is false is by former mormons – all categorically rejected by mormons.
Mormons say – ready the book of mormon – or go to our church’s website. But, if someone does and then explains why they don’t think its true. Mormons just discredit the person. A person could be mormon for forty years, then write a book saying its false – and simply be attacked by mormons. You guys simply don’t have it in you to read solid, scholarly work that rejects the mormon faith. Because its not about facts – its the burning in the bosom.
Report Post »iFisk
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 1:33pm“I went to college in Utah and had many, many, many long debates with Mormons and that relgion has literally ZERO proof of it’s divinity… ”
Can any religion give any PROOF of their divinity? I dont think so
Report Post »That is the point of most religions, faith in God, not proof of god
Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 2:50pmHank;
My replies are not yet posted. Probably because of more than a couple of links I provided. I gotta go right now but if they do not appear later, I’ll reply again. in the meantiome, I notriced you again made the pedophile accusation against Joseph Smith. Do it again and I’ll report this. I hope there’s some standard for intellectual discourse on this site. Making such grave accusations needs to be supported by evidence. And citing books is not intellectual. Anyone can make an accusation. If there were men in the mob to take vengence upon Joseph Smith for having sex with their wives and daughters, then WHO WERE THESE MEN? You made the accusation, you support it.
Or drop the accusation completely.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 6:48pmHank;
I’m gong to try and do this in pieces in order to get my replies posted.
On Krakauer, whome I never heard of before, there’s actually a response ot his book on the official LDS Church website:
““There is a dark side to religious devotion that is too often ignored or denied,” he posits in the prologue. “As a means of motivating people to be cruel and inhumane—as a means of motivating people to be evil, to borrow the vocabulary of the devout—there may in fact be nothing more effective than religion.” Referring to the “Islamic fundamentalism” that resulted in the killings of 11 September 2001, he goes on to say that “men have been committing heinous acts in the name of God ever since mankind began believing in deities, and extremists exist within all religions.” He finds that “history has not lacked” for Muslims, “Christians, Jews, Sikhs, and even Buddhists who have been motivated by scripture to butcher innocents. Faith-based violence was present long before Osama bin Laden, and it will be with us long after his demise”(xxii).”
That’s his view on religion and he sees Christianity as a whole guilty of hideous murder of innocents. If he’s your authority on Joseph Smith, have at it but allow me to disagree as to Kraktauer’s conclusions regarding him or regarding any relieous people. You may like him but I’m quite skeptical.
http://newsroom.lds.org/article/church-response-to-jon-krakauers-under-the-banner-of-heaven
(co
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 6:53pmHank (contniued);
Here‘s a critical samle of Kakauer’s work from the same link as my previous post:
“The author evinces some understanding of the Church’s doctrine and administrative structure, yet make gaffes that signal his generally poor command of the subject matter. For example, he refers to Mark E. Petersen, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, as the “LDS President” (53), an obvious error. Krakauer shows his ignorance of the Book of Mormon and the Bible when he refers to Laban as “a scheming, filthy-rich sheep magnate who turns up in the pages of both the Book of Mormon and the Old Testament” (132). The Old Testament Laban, who is the uncle and father-in-law of the patriarch Jacob and brother to Rebekah, lived many hundreds of years before the Laban of the Book of Mormon.”
Again, if you think “Banner Under Heaven” is historcially authoratative, have at it. I think the reason I’ve never heard of this book or author before s because it is such poor work and schlarship.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 7:01pmhank;
Of Joseph Smith being intimate with anyone beyond Emma Smith:
“There is no question that Joseph Smith was capable of producing children by Emma. It is logical to assume that if Joseph had intimate relations with many other women, that there would be evidence of pregnancy and children. The focus of the critics is primarily on Joseph’s sealings to women who were married to other husbands, since having a child by any of the previously single women to whom he was married would fall within the expected scope of plural marriage.
The available evidence, however, does not support the claim that Joseph had intimate relations with married women. Fawn Brodie, who repeatedly stated her belief that Joseph had intimate relations with many of his plural wives, identified several individuals that she thought “might” be children of Joseph Smith, Jr. Yet, even Brodie noted that “it is astonishing that evidence of other children than these has never come to light.” Brodie postulated, in spite of a complete lack of evidence, that Joseph must have been able to successfully practice some sort of primitive birth control, or that abortions must have been routinely employed.
Brodie does indeed identify some specific individuals whom she claims are likely to have been the progeny of Joseph Smith. These individuals are examined, along with a comparison of Brodie’s claims against modern evidence.”
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Children_of_polygamous
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 7:15pmhank;
BTW, be sure to scroll down and read the chart regarding joseph Smith and his supposed intamacy. The link looks like it ends after where I quoted but it doesn’t. There’s good stuff in there.
Now, i’m going to provide one more link. It is blank on the left but full of other links regarding Joseph Smith and polygamy on the right. It’s a great resource if you really want to learn about it. It’s from people who have looked thoroughly into LDS history, not some pseudo intellect like Kakauer.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Template:PolygamyPortal
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 10:23pm@Darren,
You didn‘t say anything about Grant Palmer’s book – an insiders view of mormon origins. He’s a life-long mormon. He wrote one of the best books ever on the subject. It was even sold at Deseret Books for a few years. Any comments regarding the topics he addressed?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:32amhank;
I have no idea who Grant Palmer is or what he wrote. I didn’t even know who Kakauer was until yesterday. I don’t mind looking him up and seeing what I can find but does it even matter at this point? After all you held up a bafoon as a historian to support you gross and unfounded accusations regarding Joseph Smith. Thus far you‘ve been silent regarding Kakauer so if you’d be so kind and respond on that, I’d sure appreciate it.
We’ll see what we can find.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:38amhank;
It took me less than 30 second to find the following site on Palmer. I’ll quote a part of it to whet your appetite and read through it for the time being:
“No, Grant, that’s not history–and it was certainly not written with “…balanced scholarship and academic integrity.”1
This pretty well sums up the central theme of five different scholarly reviews of Grant H. Palmer’s book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins.2 The purpose of this article is not to duplicate the existing reviews and answer the many objections to Palmer’s book, but to summarize and point to the five reviews as a source for the answers. The five reviews are:”
They are all from FARMS scholars. These guys are smart and if not or as you would say “are on crack” then you should have no problem debunking their claims.
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Summary_of_Five_Reviews_of_Grant_Palmer.html
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:51amhank;
Here’s the synopsis of that link. Numeration is mine:
1) “Trustworthy History?” written by Steven C. Harper and found in FARMS Review (Vol. 15, Issue 2. Steven C. Harper (Ph.D., Lehigh University) is assistant professor of Church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University. This review identifies many sources, scholars and issues that Palmer simply ignores. Harper focuses primarily on how Palmer manipulates evidence regarding Mormon origins.3
2) “The Charge of a Man with a Broken Lance (But Look What He Doesn’t Tell Us)” written by Davis Bitton and found in FARMS Review (Vol. 15, Issue 2). Davis Bitton (Ph.D., Princeton University) is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Utah and served for ten years as assistant Church historian. This review identifies sources, scholars, and issues that Palmer simply ignores.4
3) “Prying into Palmer” written by Louis Midgley and found in FARMS Review (Vol. 15, Issue 2). Louis C. Midgley (Ph.D., Brown University) is Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Brigham Young University. In his review, Midgley looks at the history of the writing of this book and Palmer’s employment history with the Church Education System. He also effectively debunks Palmer‘s assertions concerning parallels between the book The Golden Pot and Joseph Smith’s history.5
(continued)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:52amHank (continued);
4) “A One-sided View of Mormon Origins” written by Mark Ashurst-McGee and found in FARMS Review (Vol. 15, Issue 2). Mark Ashurst-McGee is a graduate student at Arizona State University and is an associate editor of the Papers of Joseph Smith at the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Latter-day Saint History. He won the Reese Award for the best thesis in Mormon History in 2001 for his work on Joseph Smith. In this review Ashurst-McGee looks at Palmer‘s primary points and responds to each argument showing that conclusions supporting Joseph Smith are entirely reasonable and usually more so than Palmer’s assertions.6
5) “Asked and Answered: A Response to Grant H. Palmer” written by James B. Allen and found in FARMS Review (Vol. 16, Issue 1). James B. Allen (Ph.D., University of Southern California) is professor of history emeritus, senior research fellow, Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Latter-Day Saint History at Brigham Young University, and former assistant Church historian. In this review, Allen looks at Palmer’s book as a believing scholar. He considers many of the points Palmer’s tries to make and shows that a believing perspective is just as valid as a doubting viewpoint. He persuasively suggests that all of the various points that Palmer brings up have already been “asked and answered.” A shorter version of this review is found in BYU Studies (Vol. 42, Issue 2).
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 12:59amHank;
As you can plainly read, these five reviewers are pretty smart guys. so far it looks as though Palmer’s a manipulater and deceiver. One who chose to ignore evidence right in front of hm or to manipulate it to a predetermined result. That’s quite the antithesis of a historian.
So, thus far it seems you’ve provided the bafoon Kakauer and the deceiver Palmer as authorities on Mormon history. Nice job. If you wanted to go out of your way to show why your view on Mormon history and the LDS faith is so eschewed, I think you accomplished that.
I’ll keep reading. It’s good to learn. you can learn to if you desire. The resources are a click away and God’s not too far neither.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:14am@Darren,
that is what FARMS does – that’s its job. Discredit anyone and anything that is critical of the mormon church. FARMS will never agree with any analysis of evidence that shows the mormon church is false. FARMS even writes articles to discredit the writings of those who were with Joseph Smith and good members of the mormon church, but wrote things in the journals that the mormon church wants to explain away. You could read Grant Palmer’s book and decide for yourself – look at his sources. Palmer sources everything to LDS literature. If you can’t credit Palmer with having written a well-resourced book, you’ll never find anything credible. I understand your need to defend your church. Its one of the problems with mormonism – the inability to admit fallability. Its why the mormon church has never apologized for its racist policies.
I haven‘t read Krakauer’s book yet. I’ve read some of his other stuff, so I expect it is well written.
You know, I’m not condemning mormons as people – just the belief system. I think on the whole it can be very destructive to some individuals – not all – but some. It would absolutely tear my soul to shreds to have to pretend to believe that stuff. Thank God I wasn’t born into the mormon church.
Funny how defensive mormons are about their faith, but so willing to attack Obama’s faith.
Mormon prophets – Reverend Wright. Two peas in a pod.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:22am@Darren,
I’ve read many FARMS articles. I’ll gladly read more. It is a good source to see what the mormon church believes and how it explains its history. Its interesting how hard FARMS works to try to explain away all of the evidence that shows mormonism is false – twisting and contorting . . . on every subject. Wouldn’t FARMS love it if they could just say – “we talked to ten egyptian linguists and they all agree the funeral pyre is about Abraham.” Instead, its stuff like, “it may have been divinely interpreted even though it didn’t literally discuss Abraham . . . “
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:43amHank;
“that is what FARMS does – that’s its job. Discredit anyone and anything that is critical of the mormon church. FARMS will never agree with any analysis of evidence that shows the mormon church is fal”
and:
“Its interesting how hard FARMS works to try to explain away all of the evidence that shows mormonism is false – twisting and contorting . . . on every subject.”
If they are that shallow then debunk their reviews conclusions. Go for it. As for Palmer, I cited five Ph.D reviewers who teach at various US universities. So, good luck debunking them.
As for divinly translating the Book of Abraham, why can that not be? I‘ll link you again the two best posts I’ve ever read redgarding the Book of Abraham. like I said before they ARE from Egyptian funeral services (if they are called that) and, yes, they do speak of Egyptian gods. But, as one of my links shows, it was common for Semitic people to take Egyptian stories and adopt them to tell Semitic stories, epsecially about Abraham. So, if the scrolls Joseph Smith had were of such, and authentic account (not necessarily the original) of Abraham then it would look to Egyptologists as authentically Egyptian but in actuality telll the story of Abraham.
As with various other times, a key criticism of Joseph Smith can very come to authenticate him. none of what i explained was known until the mid 20th century.
(continued)
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:48ambut doesn‘t Joseph Smith’s book of Abraham actually say in the text that it was written by Abraham? Abraham wrote it by making it look like an Egyptian funeral pyre?
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:57am@Darren,
And in Joseph Smith’s Book of Abraham, doesn’t God instruct Abraham to lie to the Egyptians by saying that his wife, Sarai, was his sister?
God told Abraham to lie? Didn’t some mormons at the time discuss that as possible justification for lying to the outside world about polygamy being practiced? I’m not sure about this – but I think I’v heard that it was in some lds journals from the time.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:00amhank;
Come to think of it, I could not find this link last time we chatted. At the time I thought the main site was down but it turns out it was redesigned. I actually liked hte old design better. But after scrolling and exploring, I found the link I wanted. This comes from the website The Book of Abraham Project (BOAP). It provides a response to critics which is excellent and highly scholarly.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/BOAP/SecondEd/Draft-copy/AppendixV-JS-Commentary-on-BOA.pdf
This response make s a solid argument that the text of the Book of Abraham and the fascimilies were from two different sources. That Joseph Smith had a lot of papyrus and within that the text came from one source and fascimilies from another but that they both told the story of Abraham. As for the text, all original sources are exigent but unfortunately no longer xist. The facsimilies, however, do exist and they are what’;s become controversial, not the text. At least not directly.
The article also points out that the Book of Abraham has: a) “close affinities” to Egyptian apocryphal writings (not in Smith’s possession), b) that the BOA claims Abraham was from Olishem and that olishem is but a newly discovered place dating to Abraham’s time. also, that Ur, in Smith’s time was placed in southern Mesopotamia (which also contradicts the biblical account of Abraham) but there was a city called Ur in Olishem (nice, eh?)
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:13amhank (the article also points out – con’t);
c) the details of astronomy in the BOM do not match a heliocentric model butthey are consistent with with the geocentric model which predominated the Metiterranean area of Abraham’s time d) david Cameron discovered a facsimile wit a lion’s couch (like in thone of the BOA’s facsimile) with “Abraham” inscribed on it. To be true, I’ve read a critique on this arguing that “Abraham” is not probative but adapted but, frankly, that only strengthens the argument I previously gave and will pronvide some more. That is that Semitic people adopted Egyptian stories to tell their own stories. Not necessarily as authentic stories; but they did do that. So why not do the same wth an authentic story of Abraham?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:27amHank (con’t);
Kevin L. Barney offered a discourse called, “The Facsimiles and Semitic Adaptation of Existing Sources”
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=40&chapid=168
His thesis is that Joseph Smith had in his possession Egyptian scrolls telling an Egyptian story but that at one point in history were adapted by a Semitic person to tell an authentic story of Abraham. To support his thesis he provides solid evidence.
Although Barney cites two examples of this phenomenon, I’ll only refer to one. but first some biblical evidence. E. A. Wallis Budge published in 1923 the findings of Egyptian scrolls from a statue of Osiris found in a tomb in Thebes. Budge hinted at parellels between the stories of Anememope and the book of Proverbs in the Bible. This idea didn’t catch on until Adolf Erman published an article in 1924 which focused on these parallels and that scholars have written much since then. so there’s direct evidence that stories in Proverbs may have been adapted by the Semitic people to tell Semitic stories and to teach Semitic morals (which is what Proverbs does). many scholars see Proverbs dependent of the stories of Anememope or from “a common source” (I think it‘s the latter but I’m no expert).
Now there’s an account of the “Testament of Abraham”.
(continued)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:50amhank (conclusion);
Also significant is the the scripts discovered to what became the “Testament of Abraham” date to right about the time the Egyptian papyrus Joseph smith came into possession of. This only strengthens Barney’s thesis.
I’d like to point out that neither the Book of Abraham Project, nor the “Semitic Lens” arguments conflict or contradict anything The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or Joseph Smith have ever said regarding the Book of Abraham.
I fint you, hank, superficial. If you find sonething which on the surface is in harmony with what you think and it “looks well written”, you quickly assume it’s authentic. I do not see you wiling to look any deeper than what’s on the surface of arguments. As you can see, just like concluding the “no DNA shows”, concluding that Joseph Smith simply made up a story about Abraham from what was really an Egyptian story is quite premature.
The info’s there is you want it but I see that as a big “if”. Also, don’t forget that you do not even need a computer ot talk to God.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 2:59amhank;
“Mormon prophets – Reverend Wright. Two peas in a pod.”
You see. This is an example of how superficial you are. On the surface this may seem clever and intellectual to you but i can take less then two minutes to show what a stu[id comment that is:
“We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of thebTen Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.”
(Article of Faith #10)
As you know, the LDS church believes the new Jeruselem will be built in the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-oI__bHA4
You decide if these are comparable or contrasting.
(Well, that took four minutes to put together)
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 3:12am(My response regarding Salamander letters is in discussion above.)
Superficial? Perhaps. I’ve probably read more writings by LDS prophets and scholars than most mormons. My point here is quite different than you might think. Don’t you find the religious right – many – extremely intolerant of your faith? Isn’t that absurd? I think so. Its also ironic. Are you intolerant of any people or leaders who say they are Christian? but you don’t think they are – so you say they belong to other religions – you say they are not Christian? Do you say God is on your political team’s side?
There is probably one thing we agree on, the only thing that matters is understanding God’s will for our life and pursuing that with every fiber in our being.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 3:12amhank;
“And in Joseph Smith’s Book of Abraham, doesn’t God instruct Abraham to lie to the Egyptians by saying that his wife, Sarai, was his sister?
God told Abraham to lie?”
Let’s see, God told the ancient 9pre) Israeli people under Aaron to go into the land of Isreal and kill every Cananite man, woman, and child, and beasts unconditionally. For those who believe this is the word of God, would they really be troubled by a Mormon account that Abraham lie about his wife? also, the bible says Abraham told Pharoah tha Sarai was his sister. So, did Abraham lie or was he practicing incest? The Book of Abraham clearly taught he was not. The biblical account? Not so much.
Such a superficial “concern”.
If you’re interested:
http://en.fairmormon.org/1835_Doctrine_and_Covenants_denies_polygamy
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 3:40amHank;
“I’ve probably read more writings by LDS prophets and scholars than most mormons”
That‘s excellent and I think I’d agree. In fact I‘d say you’ve read far more writings from LDS prophets than I have. But, unlike most Mormons (at least the ones I know) you demonstrate a consistant wrong appication of those writings. You’ve been tod by several Mormons on this thread that Journal of Discourse are NOT Mormon doctrine and those discourses seem to be a primary source of your contention against the LDS Church. It‘s far better to view those discourses as the person’s own personal thoughts. Nothing more. Nobody save Christ was infallible.
“Are you intolerant of any people or leaders who say they are Christian?’
WHAT??? It’s been shown to you and not only by myself that a core LDS doctrine is to allow freedom of religion. If you think that LDS leaders are “intolerant” of other Christian leaders then, pray tell, why is not the Bible?
“Do you say God is on your political team’s side? ”
Absolutely not. In fact I do believe I told you directly that the LDS Church allows much liberty it extends to its members to think as they may politically. That‘s why you’ll find Mike Lee and Harry Reid and everything in between (like Romney ;> ) ).
I think God’s on the conservative side but liberals may disagree.
(continued)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 3:44amHank;
“There is probably one thing we agree on, the only thing that matters is understanding God’s will for our life and pursuing that with every fiber in our being.”
That is what Mormons believe. So that being wat they believe then how could they be “intolerant” and could you show me once where I questioned anyone’s Christianity? I’ve only noticed but one person on this entire thread, a thread which many Mormons gave their opinion, which questioned your faith. I personally don’t find you Atheist but I know what that poster was getting at though I disagree with her (him?).
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 3:52amI do believe one of my posts regarding the Book of Abraham never made it here. :>(
Oh well, the essential stuff’s there.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 11:06am@Darren,
Do you question Obama’s Christianity? So long as large groups of us question the religion of our President (libs did it to Bush), we are using God as a political tool. I think we end up looking self-righteous – hypocrital – and very removed from God.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on August 6, 2011 at 1:13pmhank;
hank;
“Do you question Obama’s Christianity?”
The only aspect of Obama‘s Christianity I question is why he doesn’t mention Jesus Christ as the way to God more readily. I think the center of his doctrine is not Jesus but of black liberation. Other than this there’s no other theological aspect i question of his religion. And I truly do not care what religion he pertains to. I only care as to how his religion will affect his politics. Thus far I see a lot of black liberation thinking in his policies from taking over businesses to his clear anti-Israeli rhgetoric and actions. I thouroughly disagree with all of this.
If you or anyone else does not vote for Romney because he’s Mormon I truly do not care. Despite my political misgivings towards Romney, I will still vote for him inthe general election. I think overall he will govern conservatively (that does not mean entirely). One aspect of about Romney which I think if grossly overlooked is the fact that justice Gingrich will retire most likely during the next term of whomever is the sitting president and that Romney WILL nominate a constitutionalist justice to the Supreme Court. That would be a game changer on many levels and for the country’s good.
Report Post »Smoke Ranch
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:34pmAnd when did Bill Maher become an expert on the Mormon Church? Because he sure doesn’t know his facts. But when did he ever did?
Report Post »tower7femacamp
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:39pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5HkTlRT3b8&NR=1
Report Post »lstevetaylor
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:32pmYou can never believe anyone ever like bill maher that can have oral sex with himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Alll bill does when he is not on tv is set around an eat goat pellets, also known as dum ass pills!!!!!!!!!
deerjerkydave
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:31pmI thought Islam was all about the singularity of Allah. Wouldn’t that make Islam more like traditional Christianity? See? I can do it too. But anybody who studies religion long enough discovers more commonalities than differences. Clearly Maher‘s attempt to smear Romney’s religion fell flat on its face due to his own ignorance.
Report Post »Utah_Carl
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:31pmHis employment is : ACTOR.
Report Post »cabnetdude
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:31pmWhy would we care what this filthy Nazi thinks! His entire being is insignificant.
Report Post »ohyaok
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:30pmYes, he is the most informed individual of all things religious
Report Post »Norcalman
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:30pmJack, you don‘t know what you’re talking about. Anyone can make up their own definition to prove something doesn’t fit. The dictionary describes Christianity as a faith based on the teachings of Christ. Mormons fit that perfectly – the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The website you listed is false and has clearly misled you.
Report Post »tower7femacamp
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:27pmJust wait if Mitt does get the Nomination
then they will pull out the Curse of Cain story on Mitt.
While the majority, if not all, of Cain’s descendants would have been killed in the great flood, according to Mormons from the late 19th to mid 20th century, Cain’s bloodline was preserved on the ark through Egyptus, wife of Ham (son of Noah). The Book of Abraham, accepted by Mormons as part of their canon, is the source of the story of this Egyptus who preserves “the curse…. as pertaining to the Priesthood” by surviving the flood as Ham’s wife. One must note, however, that in this canonized source no connection is made between her and Cain (her lineage is not given), nor is anything mentioned concerning her skin color. Thus, though Mormons combined the widespread belief that Cain’s curse was a blackness of skin with another idea common in Europe and America (that the curse of Ham for seeing his father’s nakedness was black skin), the idea that Ham’s wife preserved a curse of black skin inherited from Cain that was passed on is not canonized doctrine.[6] This interpretation is now generally rejected by mainstream Mormons.[7]
Report Post »tower7femacamp
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:35pmGod set a mark upon Cain. Let’s look at this mark. The word mark is the Hebrew word OWTH. This word is only translated as mark once. It was translated as the word sign sixty times. So it was not a physical mark that God placed upon Cain, it was a sign. It is by this same sign we recognize something or someone. Our actions are a sign of how we think. So the mark God put on Cain was a sign. We can truly recognize those who have the Mark of Cain in their life by the way they act, live, and think. Many times we hear about someone having the Mark of Cain in their lives. The author always questioned, “Who, on the ark, carried the Mark of Cain through the flood?” Well, the answer is clear if you consider the acts of Ham, Noah’s second son. Moses recorded:
“And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.” Genesis 9:18, 20 & 21
There have been many theories put forth about Noah’s getting drunk, but we know he got drunk, and probably passed out in his tent. The word we want to look at is uncovered. Many believe Noah lay naked in his tent. Many teach Ham performed an act of sodomy on his father, but if it was an act of sodomy that Ham performed on his father, why was Ham’s son, Canaan, cursed?
Report Post »http://www.newfoundationspubl.org/markcain.htm
stumblemouth
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:27pmIsn’t making Smith a prophet after the Messiah a negation of the idea that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega? If you are a Christian, isn’t Jesus your only prophet?
Report Post »Susie
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:32pmNo – STUMBLEMOUTH, If you are a Christian, Jesus is the son of God, and our redeemer and saviour and this is what the Mormon church teaches. So I guess that makes them Christian.
Report Post »HankScram
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:01pmJesus is Lord. Anyone who says they are a prophet – or that their church President is a prophet – believes in false prophets. Christians listen to Jesus, not to a man claiming to be a prophet.
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:05pmI somewhat agree with you, ISles.
Mahar’s politics are often bombastically silly but his take on religion(s) is very good.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 3:14amHow interesting that the Blaze deleted my comment. I quess, while TRUTH has no agenda, defending Mormon idiocy DOES.
Report Post »Susie
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:27pmI wondered how long it would be before the left zeroed in on the LDS church. It was bound to happen as they must succeed at pitting Christian against Christian.
Report Post »Mayer really isn’t very bright though, is he ?
His arguments seem to support Mormon Christianity rather well. Boy I sure don’t want to be in his shoes when he finally faces God. Good luck Mayer. You’re going to need it.
deerjerkydave
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:36pmThere are a few groups out there which are still fair game to attack without being called intolerant. Mormons are one of them so we should expect to hear it all if Romney is the nominee.
Report Post »progressiveslayer
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:25pmBill smoked too much pot over the years and he really can’t think clearly.Just ask his opinion on anything,he‘ll tell ya it won’t make any sense but he’ll tell ya any way,he’s a moron.
Report Post »jedi.kep
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:23pmRiiiiight. So we have an athiest telling us all about religion and the ignorant masses who actually watch him are supposed to believe him? HA!
Report Post »tower7femacamp
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:34pmIsn’t Maher gay and Jewish ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5HkTlRT3b8
What about the mark of Cain and the Jews ?
The mainstream of Jewish esoteric tradition claims the line of Cain,
The ‘Beasts of the Field’ are the offspring of the original Serpent who had sexual intercourse with Eve . . . From them came forth Cain who killed Abel… (Zohar 1:28b)
was wiped out in the great Flood. On the other hand, there is another tradition that teaches that demons are actually formerly human – the souls of those who died in the Flood (PdRE 21; Targum Pseudo-Jonathan 4:1; Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer 34).
The most striking aspect of is the particularly Jewish inclination to explain the existence of demons as being a by-product of human misdeed. Rabbinic Judaism largely walked away from the “Fallen Angel” explanation found in Apocalyptic texts. Hence we have no Devil, no “anti-god” competing with God for souls, etc. For those Jews who believed in the demonic (and there have been many), since there is little room for an ontologically autonomous evil force, demons have to either originate from God Herself or from the only other spiritual force in the universe – us. Most have opted to identify the demonic with human transgression (a modern reiteration of this appears in Adin Steinsaltz’s primer on Kabbalah, The Thirteen Petalled Rose p. 17).
Report Post »http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2006/11/does-curse-of-cain-live-on.html
jackact
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:22pmWhat does this lout know about anything except 5 diamond ratings for Los Angeles call girl services?
Report Post »Jack2011
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:22pmMormons are liars when they say their are Christians but they do NOT kill like muslims.
Is Mormonism Christian?:
Report Post »A Comparison of Mormonism and Historic Christianity
http://www.irr.org/mit/is-mormonism-christian.html
Jack2011
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:24pmhttp://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm
Report Post »Mormon theology teaches that god is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. But, the Bible says that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5), that God has eternally been God (Psalm 90:2) — which means he was never a man on another planet. Why is Mormonism a non Christian religion? It is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.
Jack2011
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:26pmThe Blaze should give bloggers an EDIT button for a few minutes after posting to correct errors. How hard would it be to make that happen?
Report Post »NVFreeMan
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:33pmJACK2011:
Hmmmm… so a religion whose own website states:
”Mormons, for all the other things that set us apart, believe first and foremost that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer.”
Are “liars” if they claim to be Christians??
Jack, you seem to be confused and irrational…. maybe you should do a little more research before making such ridiculous claims!!
Report Post »cabnetdude
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:34pmMaybe you should do a little research before you post your insignificant insights in the matter of religion. Just sayin.
Report Post »Jack2011
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:40pm9 Reason mormons are NOT Christians
http://www.irr.org/mit/is-mormonism-christian.html
Mormons believe that Jesus is JUST ONE GOD AMONG MANY.
READ the
Report Post »Is the Momon my Brother
http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Brother-Discerning-Differences-Christianity/dp/0764220470/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312501135&sr=1-1
loriann12
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:42pm@Jack2011
I agree about the edit button….the site ASAMOM.org has one. you have 15 minutes after you post to change anything. Maybe they should call them, Glenn probably has Lori’s phone number. Hint. Hint.
Report Post »Jack2011
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:43pmcabnetdude
_______
A page from Saul Alinsky attack when you cannot fight the TRUTH. Personally, I would vote for a Buddhist over Obama. Buddhists don’t LIE and pretend they are Christian. I don’t vote for liars or RINOS and Romney and Huntsman are BOTH. .
Comparison of Christians to Mormons
http://www.irr.org/mit/is-mormonism-christian.html
Is the Mormon My Brother? Discerning the Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity by James R. White ISBN 0-7642-2047-0
Report Post »http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Brother-Discerning-Differences-Christianity/dp/0764220470/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312501135&sr=1-1
GeddyWanaBe
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:46pmSo the best you could do is pile on the Mormon bashing. It’s so easy type up the overused snippets of self-interpreted Bible Doctrine. It’s so easy to vomit long refuted claims in short little soundbites so you can look fair but actually behave more like Maher and less like a Christian. The reality is Mormon Doctrine more closely match the doctrines of the Bible than any other organized religion. It’s all out there to discover for your self, if your objective enough to do fair research. Like Glenn says, don’t believe me, research it for yourself and come to your own conclusions. But don’t go to radical Islam to find out about the Jews. Same with Mormonism; go to the source and find out their beliefs. It‘s sad that JACK2011 would try to act fair while in reality just continued Maher’s rant. Nice!?
Report Post »paperpushermj
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:09pm@jack2011
Report Post »So you have set yourself up as the definer of all things Christian, such as who is or isn’t. You can expect a letter from my lawyer soon because thats my job. In fact how do I know your a Real Christian?
Greenwood
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:11pm@JACK2011……………There is only one Almighty God…………but 1 Corinthians 8: 4-6
Report Post »5 For even though there are those who are called “gods” whether in heaven or on earth , just as there are many “gods” and many “lords” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father………………..
2 Corinthians 4: 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers………………………….(Satan is the god of this world………..but not for long.)
1 John 5: 19 ….the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one
John 12: 31……………..now the ruler of this world will be cast out. John 16:11 14:30 18:36
Darren
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 9:50pmJack;
The idea that there are man gods is accepted by perhaps many in the Mormon faith but it’s only an idea. Mormon worship is much simpler than that: Come unto the Father through the Son. That’s solidly biblical.
Report Post »Conservitive Ticker
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 11:15pm@Jacko the Wacko
He said“A Comparison of Mormonism and Historic Christianity”
Which historic Christianity are you comparing? 1st century Christianity, maybe 3rd century Christianity with the The Great Councils of Seven, Maybe the per-trinity Christianity or maybe your talking about Nicene Creedal Christianity where the nature of God was voted on, Perhaps Orthodoxy or Catholic Christianity or even the Anglican Faith. Maybe your referring to the thousands of Protestant or Reformationist faiths. Which is It! None of the above completely agrees with the other, all have committed horrible acts of violence against others. If you would do a deeper study you would find the ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints” has more in common with 1st century Christianity than all other religion combined. (Deification of Man, Baptism for the Dead, Baptism by Immersion, Laying on of Hand for Spiritual Gifts, Council of 12 Apostles, Missionary Work (evangelism), Tithes, The Belief that Jesus Christ is the Literal Son of God and Savior to Mankind. By Obedience to his laws (what we consider Works) are we saved by his grace alone, Christ is our Mediator to GOD the Father of all living. Christ said that we will be joint heirs with him in Gods Kingdom, all that he has we shall have (what does that mean to you?). I’m am growing weary of the Grace versus works debate. If God requires no effort on our part (works, keeping the commandment, etc) then why did he give us commandments to f
Report Post »Arlundee
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 12:20amPretty big accusations there Jack. The information you “quote” from is written by the avid anti-LDS, or people who have a very obvious vendetta against someone in the church. Before you continue to embarrass yourself spouting off things you have no understanding of, why don’t you go ahead and go to http://www.lds.org and immerse yourself in actual research written and published by practicing Mormons. I can tell you right off the bat that everything you’ve posted is, in fact, complete hogwash.
Report Post »Susie
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 8:18amHey Jack,
Report Post »Your statement and reference to someone else’s research is ludicrous. How about you attend a Latter Day Saints church service, find out for yourself what they teach, look into it yourself and then make an opinion based on your own knowledge.
Books are a dime dozen. I can refer you to just as many that support the LDS church as Christian. But you need to be able to think for yourself. I have now been studying “Mormon” doctrine for about a year and can with all surety testify that they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, their Lord, the son of God and their redeemer – the same Jesus Christ that hundreds of other Christian denominations claim to follow. The problem is they do it more faithfully and with more commitment than most of the mainstream churches which I have also studied.
They are called the Church of Jesus Christ and preach that there is no other name by which you can come to the Father.
Mormon bashing by wishy-washy Christians who prefer small doses of Christ‘s commands that don’t interfere too much with their lifestyles, has been going on since the church began. Christ actually said that if the world hated you, you were doing something right. I’d say, it seems the Mormons have it more “right” than any other “Christian” group, I’ve yet found.
You have just shown your foolishness to millions of people. Now WISE UP! and start thinking for yourself. Otherwise you will be left with the Mahers of the world as your guide.
Or perhaps he is
Dauh
Posted on August 5, 2011 at 1:35pmTo you so-called “Christian” bigots who accuse Mormons of not being Christian…. You sound ridiculous. Your understanding of the nature of the Godhead and what it means to be Christian is so narrow and perverted that you don’t even make sense. If your understanding of theology is based only on the Bible, you’re at an overwhelming disadvantage. The LDS founders saw and spoke to Jesus Christ on several occasions during the restoration. The rest of you Christians are relying on old notes from ancient prophets, your own silly interpretation, and, if you’re Catholic, the interpretation of an uninspired Pope in a goofy hat. How ironic it is that you call the LDS church “nonChristian,” when in fact it’s the only religion on earth that understands Christianity. There is good in all churches, but only the LDS church teaches the correct principles of salvation, the nature of God, and has the authority to perform ordinances. You cannot properly exercise faith in a being that you do not understand. Mormons understand God better than anyone, and the day will come when all of you will admit that. Might not come during this life, but the day will come–and you’ll celebrate it and be thankful that God is paying attention to the affairs of men, and that he set up a mechanism for everyone’s salvation. Do a little research and stop paying attention to vile idiots like Bill Maher.
Report Post »Rob
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:21pmThis guy is going to push it too far…. I hope he has protection.
Report Post »debbdi
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:21pmPlease stop giving this guy a platform!
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 7:19pmGood God, would you PLEASE STOP reporting on this idiot! He is a nobody, I do not want to see him hear about him, or even know he exists. The Blaze is the only reason I even know this fool is alive…Please stop with the bill maher already…
Report Post »Greenwood
Posted on August 4, 2011 at 8:24pmI agree who cares what this atheist Bill Maher thinks anyway. He says anything just for the shock value to get himself in the lime light. Why would an atheist even care what a mormon believes anyway. It’s just the fact that he is a republican and a threat to Obummer re-election.
Report Post »