Blaze Exclusive: Prominent Atheist Activist Answers Your Most Burning Questions About Faith & Secularism
- Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:02pm by
Billy Hallowell
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Todd Stiefel
Recently, The Blaze invited you to ask your most burning questions of Todd Stiefel, the millionaire atheist who is actively engaged in the secular activist movement. Over the past month, we’ve received hundreds of comments and interesting queries from a multitude of readers who wish to better understand atheism and the work that Stiefel’s so diligently involved in.
This is the first portion of our three-part “Ask an Atheist” series — a set of articles that will provide insight into Stiefel’s activism and worldview. With non-believers organizing like never before in search for political and social recognition, grasping and better understanding secularists’ goals is paramount. So, The Blaze has been working with Stiefel to bring you answers to some of the most controversial and contentious subjects surrounding personal faith and religion (read the extensive profile we wrote on the well-known atheist leader earlier this year).
Among the queries that were posed by Blaze readers, some wondered if there was a time in Stiefel’s life during which he sought after God and looked for answers in religion. While he admits that he did, indeed, feel close to God at one point, he now believes that Catholicism, among all other faiths, is a false doctrine. Here is the famed atheist’s full answer:
“I would not say I ever sought after God, but I found a strong belief at points nonetheless. I chose to go to a Catholic high school and went on several of the religious retreats. This was not to find God, it was because it sounded like a fun way to hang out with my friends. The retreat my senior year was the most religious experience of my life. I really felt close to God, like I was being touched by the Holy Spirit or the like, but in hindsight that is not surprising.
In a college psychology class, I learned about the tools used to make people more susceptible to persuasion. I was immediately struck with how similar they were to my experience at the religious retreat in high school. At the retreat, they dramatically underfed us, they kept us up late and woke us early, they used peer pressure to get us to publicly reveal our most painful emotional memories and then talked about God to soothe us. They replaced the pain with God and it worked — for awhile.
During college, I went through a journey of questioning the faith I had been raised in and realized it was just like all of the other religions. Catholicism is one of several modern remnants of an ancient Middle Eastern pagan religion. It claims to be monotheistic, yet actively promotes belief in other supernatural deity-like beings, such as Satan. I realized it was filled with contradictions and inconsistencies that demanded suspension of disbelief to get past, just like other religions. Just like other faiths, it claims to be the only truth and that all other religions are false. I eventually came to realize that Catholicism was just as true as all other religions, that is to say, it is not.”
For religious people, these comments may be hard to swallow, specifically considering those who continue to feel close to God and who cannot relate to Stiefel’s assessment. Also, many Christians revere faith as the basis on which their lives are hinged. For the atheist, though, this is obviously not a factor. Another Blaze reader asked, “If atheists have no faith, what is your reason for life?” Stiefel’s response is intriguing:
“This questions needs to be broken in two. There is the question of ‘what is your reason for life,‘ but an answer also needs to be given to the assumption of ’atheists have no faith.’ To the piece on faith, this depends on what definition of faith you use. If defined as, believing without proof, atheists reject this type of blind faith as dangerous and ignorant. This is the kind kind of faith that allows people to be convinced they will be rewarded with virgins for flying a plane into a building. On the other hand, all atheists have faith in terms of trusting other people. Atheists do not have faith in terms of, believing in gods, but personally I have no problem with people who have this kind of faith so long as they are not fundamentalists and do not try to use the government to spread or legislate their religion.
As to our reason for living, our reasons are even stronger than for those who believe in an afterlife. To atheists, we get one shot, there is no reincarnation or heaven where we get to live on after death. We have to do our best here and now. There is no reason for life, except for the purpose we give it. I am sure each atheist has different reasons they love life, but for me, my reasons for living include the joy of raising my children, the love of being with my family and friends and the fulfillment I get from helping other people. A better question may be what is the reason for living for someone who believes in heaven; why bother living if you could just die and go to heaven? What meaning can you give to this life? My guess is that the answers a religious person has to those questions are very similar to the answer I have for living.”
Todd Stiefel (Image Credit: TheHumanist.org)
When it comes to Stiefel’s non-belief, some readers also wondered how it’s possible for atheists to look at the world and the universe around them and to not see “something greater than mere chance happenings that created everything around us.” The activist explained why he — and other secularists — do not see an Almighty figure as the universe’s architect:
“I have looked around and do not see something or someone that created everything around us. You have not either. None of us have seen a creator deity. Many people believe there is one (or several), but none of us have seen one. What I want to know is, how can someone look at the massive universe and assume that it was created by Yahweh, one of many desert gods worshiped by primitive people in a tiny corner of one planet orbiting one of the 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe? The answer is that people believe the creator is whatever god they were taught as a child is the creator. Virtually nobody with Jewish parents grow up to believe Brahma is the creator. Jewish children are even less likely to believe the creator is one of the gods taught by parents on planets in other galaxies.
That said, I don’t believe that what exists around me is the result of only mere chance, though chance was a factor. I accept that our solar system is the result of gravity pulling a gas cloud together to form a star, planets and other objects over the course of billions of years. I understand this process was dictated by the laws of physics, just as everything around us is the result of the processes dictated by the nonrandom laws of nature. The evidence demonstrates that there was a Big Bang around 13.75 billion years ago. At this point, it is impossible to know what existed before the Big Bang because the evidence was destroyed in the explosion. Some insist that they are certain that their god existed before then. I find it interesting that some people have such conviction about something that is unknowable.”
Among the most common criticisms of atheists in America is their seemingly fervent focus upon Christianity. It’s not uncommon for believers to wonder why secularists seem so focused on Christians and not Muslims — particularly radicalized Islamists. Thus, it’s not surprising that a question that popped up quite a bit for Stiefel was, “Why don’t American atheists question radical Islam as much as they do Christianity?”
Stiefel believes that the assumption underlying this question is inaccurate and he seeks to debunk the sentiment with his answer:
“Atheists are very vocal in their criticism of radical Islam. If you do not think we are, then you have not read much of our literature. We do not pull any punches about the evils of fundamentalist Islam (or the falsehood of moderate Islam). The perception that we are less critical of Islam comes from several things. First, there is a natural bias to notice criticism of ones own religion more than the criticism of other faiths. This helps explain why it is more noticeable to Christians when we criticize flaws in Christianity.
Second, according to the 2008 American Religious Identification Survey, 76% of Americans identify as Christian, while only 0.6% as Muslim. Given that there are more than 100 times more Christians in this country than Muslims, Christians are a far more influential and powerful group. The things that American atheists criticize (such as violations of separation of church/state, discrimination against atheists, deaths from faith healing, etc.) are problems all over the world, but in this country, those problems are mostly caused by radical Christians, not the relatively powerless Muslims.”
When it comes to his own personal activism and his allocation of millions to secularists causes, another question that was asked was “Why would you spend your time and money trying to eradicate something you believe is a myth when the myth gives people comfort and causes them to treat each other with love and respect?”
Stiefel made it clear that he has no intentions of eradicating religion, but that his focus is the separation of church and state:
“I am not spending my money trying to eradicate religion. That would be an impossible goal. I am spending my money to improve the separation of religion from government, eliminate discrimination against atheists/agnostics, rally freethinkers to raise money for charity, and make the world a safer place by undermining the type of fundamentalist religion that leads to war/jihad and terrorism.”
The last question in this first part of the series also focuses upon monies, but rather than Stiefel’s own fortune, it involves the use of taxpayer dollars on the behalf of anti-theist groups who often make use of the courts. Another reader asked, “How do atheists justify their use of taxpayer dollars (through litigation and court costs) to try and force upon a predominately Christian people their unbelief?”
“The author of this questions seems to be confusing religious right tactics with atheist ones. In what way are atheists trying to force our unbelief on people? Trying to stop the religious right from using the government as a tool to promote religion is not the same as using the government to try to promote unbelief. We do not want the government promoting religion or atheism; we want the government to be neutral on the issue.
When we try to stop to the government from telling us how, when, where and what to pray, such as on the National Day of Prayer, that does not promote atheism, it simply opposes government intrusion into religion. Promoting atheism would be us asking the government to issue proclamations telling people not to pray. If the government were to issue such a proclamation, I would be right there with you fighting against it.”
This was the first installation of “Ask an Atheist Activist.” The next series of questions and answers with Stiefel will be published next Friday.
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Comments (761)
Dismayed Veteran
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:20pmI like his tone. For once there was no shrill yelling. I understand his opinion but simply disagree.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:27pmI agree with you. It’s nice to see moderate atheists; good counterpoint to the loud-mouthed angry anti-theists who we hear about so often.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:38pm@DISMAYED VETERAN
My sentiments exactly.
Other peoples beliefs, or non-beliefs, do not affect my view of salvation, nor does it mean we can’t be friends. I t does not make them an ignorant individuals whose views I cannot listen to.
I may believe differently, but we can all get along as long as there is civility.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:51pmOf course not. He has exposed his face and enough information about himself that he is unwilling to tell you, as I was told by an anonymous atheist on Ray Comforts Blog, how he was going to murder me and pry my eyeballs from my lifeless corpse before he tossed my remains into a ditch. Atheists are cowards in a most spectacular way. Especially so when hiding behind a pseudonym post name.
A very interesting aside…I have found that many atheists are former Catholics. Of which the majority don’t know what they believe as they have never read the bible, God’s Word, in a reflective way. They believe that very little of the bible is true and have slouched towards Long Day evolution and Gap theories to attempt to explain away the disconnect between God’s Word in Genesis and the actual diety they do worship “Science and Logical Thought”. I’ve yet to meet a Catholic who really believes in Jesus in a way I see real Christians believe. And the pain in me is great as I grew up in the Catholic Church, went to parochial school and have mother, father, sisters, brothers who will not speak at all about Jesus and how, what, or when their relationship is real with Him. I’ve been told to shut the hades up so many times by my family members that I no longer even bother to share my thoughts with them. Who is my mother, father, brothers, sisters? It appears that my fellow Christian travelers are they. Just as Jesus said, I have been seperated from family because of Him and that
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:57pm@TREATY
What a sad and lonely life that must be…
I learn something from someone every day and I never ask them which church they go to before I speak to them.
Open up a little; it’s a big, beautiful wonderful world filled with amazing people and ideas.
Report Post »johnjamison
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:43pmIt sounds like he was a victim of orginized religion. Not a victim of the actual gospel of Christ. I for one find that most orginized religions are indoctrination centers more than gospel centers. I believe and I do because I read the new testament and felt it’s teachings not only benefited society but also benefited me as a person. Do I believe every word in the book no books are written by men. Much like laws and are influenced by thier beliefs and biases. But I do believe the parts written about Christ a man so great so wise so loving that time actually changed from BC to AD following his gift to us.
Report Post »Some might think me a fool but that’s there right I work with atheist and have a friends whose atheist as well. We don’t talk faith we have established where our beliefs.
FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:45pmTreaty
Report Post »You can have any belief you want, but when you say he is confused you sound dumb. You believe in something some guy said is true. He believes that because he has never heard anything about God that he thinks sound logical he chooses to believe there is not one. Who’s confused? Both of your beliefs have the same credibility. He just chooses to think for himself rather than take some guys word for it like a sheep. I personally think all religions are made up, but I don’t begin to think I know, or that it’s even possible for me to know if God exist. I can just hope so and pray for enlightenment.
phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:49pmBROTHER ED – hi!
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:56pmBuzzardsays
Report Post »I can’t believe what you just wrote. What are you saying that all Atheist are psychotic? Look I‘ve read the Bible many times I’ve also read the Koran once (that’s all I could take of that nonsense). I have also studied the history of religions and many different aspects of theology on my own quest to find God. So if your saying the only people who don‘t believe in Jesus are people who don’t know anything about it, you could not be more wrong. I‘ve met alot of people who don’t believe in Jesus and Alot of people who do and in my experience the people who don’t believe in him know alot more about the subject in general and the people who do believe in him only know specific things. For example, they have certain verses of John memorized. You sound like an uneducated religious radical no better than those crazy Muslims when it come to religion.
SquareHead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:59pmI disagree.
Though I like the civility of the person, but the fact is that Atheism finds Christianity Repugnant and will lead to eventual extermination of Christians if total power was achieved by these people. Like a final solution!
Christians that are unapologetic that we have absolute truth. The mere words are such a threat that any measure will be taken to stop it.
Don’t take my word on it read for yourself :
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Report Post »Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
inblack
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:06pmI might like his tone, but I believe his mission is to lead people away from God.
Therefore I cannot objectively praise his reasonable tone.
To me it is like admiring a murderers fine knife work.
While you and I may feel comfortable talking with anti-God atheists (and even we should be careful), many especially the young are not so comfortable in their faith to listen to the snake and not fall away from God.
While we are called by God to spread his word, some are called by satan to lead us away.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:07pmSquareHead
Report Post »Quoting the Bible to prove your argument is like a communist quoting the Communist Manifesto to prove theirs. It doesn’t prove anything let alone make any sense.
brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:10pm@PHILLYATHEISY & BRUCE P & others
Hi.
You guys are having too much fun on this beautiful Friday!
I wish I could stay longer, but my wife and I are going sailing tonight. We are celebrating our 25th.
I‘ll do my best to chime in with the time I’ve got.
Report Post »Susan09
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:11pmEven the Athiest’s and agnostics have a right to Have no faith in The Word WE have to this day. EVEN if being misguided and chooseing to disregard, THE CREATOR FATHER of all EVEN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON all CHRISTIANITY IS named FOR THE first of the Resurrection from death. That We as Believers in the Life death buriel and resurrection of the only Perfect Sinless that took upon HIMSELF all OUR SIN. with the Promise of HIS HOLY SPIRIT Baptism MADE WITHOUT THE HANDS OF man having been given to any whomever has sought the Truth of The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. As for proof. Unless you as a person cannot accept the Son will not be able to recieve the Gift already having been promised BY the Very One they HAVE DENIED. THE CREATOR JEHOVAH GOD ALMIGHTY FATHER OF ALL EVEN those that have admitted they DENY THE CHRIST the SON JESUS and the FATHER HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD “YHWH” The Unforgivable sin is Blasphmy against the Holy Spirit. One can deny The Name of JESUS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON in doing so Onme then IS denying THE HOLY SPIRIT FATHER CREATOR GOD JEHOVAH YHWH CROSS gospel HIS WORD. IN THE BEGINNING GOD, Genesis 1;1:, Malachi 3;16: & Ch. 4, John 1;1:, 3;16:, Rev. 1;1: & 22; 21: “7” Verses Written By Witnesses and Authors All Endowed with the Holy Spirit. Would be no Holy Books Word of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. there could not even be this Discussion or debateing of THE LORDS BOOK THE LORDS WORD UNLESS THERE IS A HOLY CREATOR WITH A HOST OF CELESTIAL ALSO TERRESTIAL Witnesses.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:12pmAlso, how can you say absolute truth when you have no idea if it’s true at all except for Bible quotes. Nobody thinks Christians are a threat. I personally look at Christians probably the same way Christians look at Greek mythology. Is Greek mythology a threat to you….. Well, that’s what I think of Christian rhetoric.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:17pmHappy anniversary Brother_Ed. I wish you 25 more.
Report Post »K Chad Roberts
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:33pmBuzzardSays:
“Atheists are cowards in a most spectacular way. Especially so when hiding behind a pseudonym post name.”
I find your post rather amusing, as your name is a pseudonym. I am an atheist, and have proclaimed that several times on The Blaze. In addition, I follow a lot of what Glenn Beck says, and I support many of the same things social conservatives believe. I also would like to point out, that my user name is in fact my real name. Obviously, I didn’t finish the first name, and went right on to my middle and last name, but it is my name. You are making rather irate comments while hiding behind your pseudonym post name. Hypocrisy doesn’t really irritate me, rather it’s amusing, as it completely throws out your whole point. Take a step back man… seriously…
Report Post »scarebear83
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:48pmSome of us have weighed out all the options and went the other direction. Some of it from the Bible and some from logic. I can’t imagine a computer, over millions of years, coming together on its own to make a living being. Yeah, I know, “but a computer isn’t the same as a living breathing being.” Well, neither was the first inanimate object(s) that supposedly came together to make life. I look at a computer and I know without a doubt that there was a creator behind it. If you don’t believe in absolute truth, believe in just this one, in this natural world we see that only life can create life. Life has never come from an inanimate object, it’s simply impossible.
I know, I was just getting to that, “But who created God then?” For starters He’s not IN the natural world, He created it but He‘s not bound to it’s limitations. Science tells us that space, time, and matter are all linked to one another right? God being the Creator of space, time, and matter is not limited by time for He is outside it’s realm… He created it. Just like a painter who paints a painting, if the painting is stabbed the painter doesn’t bleed. Let’s also look at this scenario, let’s say there was someone who created God, and then there was someone who created him and then someone who created him and on through down the line…. you still would have to come to something that has always been there. I don’t believe the Bible cause someone told me to. I believe cause that’s where logic l
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:51pmTo K Chad Roberts,
Yes that particular nugget was not lost to me. I used to post boldly in my full name with facial pictures and even a family photo. And then one day I had real evil atheists threaten my family with murder. Other atheists calling my cerebral palsy afflicted son a limp wristed ******. And a particaulrly vile atheist group correllated my name to LinkedIn and tadah I had to change phone numbers, email addresses, etceteras. If I were to google my name I would find a plethora of atheists sites that have denigrated my name with all manner of vile perverted statements.
So yes I do understand the funny logic as I wrote it. If it were only me…I would still be posting under my name. And atheists who wanted to play would find that I’m their huckleberry.
But, for your own sake you might reconsider a pseudonym because real evil does exist and atheists own it.
Report Post »jmurdock257
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 4:07pmThe article quotes, “I am not spending my money trying to eradicate religion. That would be an impossible goal. I am spending my money to improve the separation of religion from government, eliminate discrimination against atheists/agnostics, rally freethinkers to raise money for charity, and make the world a safer place by undermining the type of fundamentalist religion that leads to war/jihad and terrorism.”
Improve the separation of religion from government.
Where did he get the idea that there should be a separation of church and state? It’s freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Nowhere in the constitution is there any metion of a separation of church and state.
It’s also sad his belief that religion causes more problems that it solves.
Report Post »Treaty
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 4:08pmBROTHER_ED, LOL. You concluded that I lead a sad and lonely life on that? Amazing. Anyway, no. I don’t need to open up to hateful people to see a “beautiful wonderful world filled with amazing people and ideas.” There are tons of other ways to enjoy life without exposing yourself to the dregs of society.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:00pm@TREATY
Your original post was removed, I think – at least I don’t see it.
My comment was based on the ‘false religions’ aspect of the comment, not the ‘dregs’ (which I don’t remember).
Anyways, I must of taken it wrong, tone is difficult to hear in a written post.
No harm intended.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:09pmThere’s logic in the Bible?? I guess maybe a little in Psalms or Proverbs or in some of the laws of Moses, but not in the spiritual part. You read the Bible and logically deduced that God exist?? That‘s the dumbest thing I’ve heard today. The religions that recognize the Bible as truth are not a result of the Bible it’s the other way around. These religions wrote their books after they thought up their ideas. Bottom line is you CANNOT read the Bible and say “Well I was (PLACE NON- ABRAHAMIC RELIGION HERE) but this book just PROVED I was wrong.” Where do you people get that the Bible is proof. So with that logic “Dianetics” is proof for Scientology.
Report Post »Caleb-Texas
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:40pmDear BuzzardSays,
I responded to your comments in the main tread. I hope you can find it and tell me what you think.
Thanks,
Caleb
Report Post »beckisnuts
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:41pmBuzzardsays, where was god when modern **** sapiens (your great great great X 10000) was on earth 100,000 years ago? Why did god hide for so long? Why did god create Neanderthals and let them interbreed with us? Your DNA is 2-4% neanderthal unless your African. Science has shattered the myth of religion. Why anyone would want to accept the logic and reasoning of an ancient group of ignorant superstitious people as something to cling to is beyond me.
Report Post »GETLIFE
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 6:41pmJust saw this fun comment on atheists from Neil deGrasse Tyson: http://9gag.com/gag/4425348
My first thought after reading this article is that Todd there sure has a lot of atheist rules and regulations bouncing around in his head….
Report Post »KevINtampa
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 7:46pmHe’s seems to have a lot of faith in science. I wonder if he believes in DNA even though he’s never seen it, smelt it, felt it, heard it, or tasted it. Atheists always quote the science bible because let’s face it, that’s the real religion we are all taught to place face in. “Find this man guilty because this team of people say it’s his DNA” (something no one can actually see, even DNA scientists only can see the numbers their computers spit out), is akin in my mind to find this woman to be a witch because this panel of priests say they see the devil in her eyes. Both require the same faith, and IMHO both are flawed.
Atheists are simply fundamentalists of modern science. In 300 years their beliefs will be just as invalid as those scientists who used theory to prove the Earth was flat and that blood letting was a good idea. And it should be noted, that yes religions societies have brought about war, but they also provided the stable philosophical environments that have advanced science. Because of God, or rather the societal belief in God, we have the advances we have today. That can not be denied, it’s how we got here.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 9:25pmWe are a Predator Species; We join the Military to kill our Enemies; We Hunt & Slaughter for Meat… Our GOD tells us a Truth: to Love and be Kind. We are Crazy & Irrational… and we listen to other Crazy & Irrational people who propose a Truth… as if they are Gods and the Sane ones.
You see my point? You cannot simply Disagree!
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 10:00pmafter the crummy education that most of these kids have received and the fact that GOD has been removed from so much, families have fallen apart etc. I don’t blame them from not believing but for me to “ask” him a question would be like indulging in some time-travel in the wrong direction. I have studied and prayed and reached a great stage and I pity him if he doesn’t get over this silliness of thinking that something somehow put HIM here. Besides, he missed 99.9% of life by not knowing GOD.
I have had too many life experiences which prove beyond any doubt the existence of GOD and I don’t consider any ATHEIST intelligent enough or developed enough to take seriously anything they would have to say. S.E. CULP could be an exception but I think that her thoughts being on GOD and RELIGION so much prove that He has already tapped her on the shoulder but being the strong-minded human being she is, she will fight it for a while.
There is no life without GOD.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 10:28pmBROTHER_ED, congratulations on your 25th anniversary. May you have many, many, many more.
I am actually officiating a wedding for dear friends this weekend.
Report Post »Leopold
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 4:04amSo this expert has looked around. Didn’t see a creator and therefore came to the conclusion that the evidence points to a Big Bang 13.75 billion years ago.
What evidence is he talking about? I really like the accuracy of 13.75 billion years.
Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.
The ease with which these claims are being made is astonishing. Nothing to back it up. Just state “evidence points to a big bang”.
And they say that we are blind followers of some teachings from 2000 years ago.
So evidence from 2000 years ago doesn’t count. But evidence from 13.75 billion years ago is totally acceptable. What a genius. Is he sure it was 13.75 billion years ago or could it have been 11,430,165,995 billion years ago? Just asking. After all, what difference do 2.3 billion years make, when you deal with such high numbers. It is a lot harder to proof something that happened 2000 years ago. Is it not?
I really would like to know so that I am not so blind and ignorant anymore.
Yep, these are quite the experts.
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 4:08amSatan’s main job is to discourage us; to rep away our faith; to confuse us. Anyone who sees a blade of grass or watches a sunrise/sunset; who see’s puppies play; rain fall.. KNOW there is a GOD. GOD chooses us, so if you aren’t hearing from HIM you might wanna ask yourself why. YOU don’t do GOD any favors by knowing Him, He loves us/He made us but He needs nothing from us. I think people who ditz around with the will I or won’t I coyness re: GOD really don’t know who He is; how powerful He is and they’d better thank their lucky stars He is Merciful!! You are like a knat swarming around an Elephant, dudes.
Report Post »Why would anyone ask an Atheist anything? There is no truth that can come from a rancid source. You can’t get pure anything from putrified sources. Atheists are doing the Devil’s work. Why? Were they that brainwashed in school? Have they no sense that there is more out there than themselves?
Do they think that anything they see wasn’t first conceived and then designed and then created? That the master plan of the cycles/seasons of earth are no accident? Where do they think LOVE comes from? You sure don’t need LOVE to procreate! Billy, why do you give the Devil so much space? Aren’t there messages from Inspiring Leaders of Faith that you can publish besides these
poor, pathetic lost souls trying to convince themselves they are Okay? They aren’t.
barryswhitehalf
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 10:50amGee whiz….Can’t wait for the next installment of propaganda from Pee Wee herman there.
Atheists point of view:
#1 In the beginning there was nothing. Then BANG! Nothing blew up and created everything!
From nothing, came Laws and order. (Laws: physics, natural, logic etc.).
Or
#2 The universe always existed. NO “Science” proved it had beginning as galaxies move apart.
Back to statement #1.
Or
#3 According to Hawkins. Gravity fields created the Universe. What created gravity in the first place?
Back to #1.
Or
#4 Lots of Time and lots of chances: 10 x 10 to the 1,000,000,000,000,000 power chances + billions upon billion of years “created” all that is seen. Mathamatically impossible. Even if there were the most remote chance of being true, then why hasn’t anyting suddenly appeared? Time and chance still marches on. Darn Back to #1.
Or
#5 They must be intellictually honest with themselves (and they’re not) how does one go from non-life to life?
Report Post »There were no scientists around to witness creation, it cannot be measured or recreated in a lab. So you have
“Theory, Conjecture, Extrapulation you know down right good home made science a/k/a guess work.
Or
They really hate this one:
In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth Genisis 1:1.
binge_thinker
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:21amThis fellow simply presents the same lame and factless atheist arguments in a friendlier package.
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:52amabout the time he is drawing his last breath i am sure he will call out to God for mercy as most atheists do. pain and death tend to clarify things.
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:57ami notice his mention of the now small muslim population in the u.s. he thinks christians are the problem. just wait until the muslim population hits critical mass. oyvey. atheists will be running for cover just like every other person who will not follow islam.
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 12:16pmThose who are vehemently opposed to the Truth found solely in Jesus Christ may be closer than they imagine to His saving grace. Empty litanies of lies & self-deception can be just an outward form of denial for what they know deep down inside – That there is a God who created them in His image.
Report Post »grassroots
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 1:29pmHe is a nut! He just wants attention! May God have mercy on his soul.
Report Post »jhaydeng
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 8:52pmhuh?
Report Post »BxB
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 12:45amHow could anyone hear the simple epithet, “Daddy, I love you.” and ever think that it came about by a random collocation of atoms is beyond m
Report Post »EP46
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 6:33amPray for Todd. God must have a wonderful plan for him…because Satan is fighting very hard to take his soul.
Report Post »Pontiac
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 4:50pm@ConservativeCanucklehead
I am a descendant of two late 1800′s era baptist preachers on each side of my family, I was a deist in my youth, an agnostic up until about a year ago and then became an ardent atheist after reading the constant inane post of “christians” on the blaze. I can’t speak for atheist as a whole but I think god is a fanciful concept that is quickly tainted by an absurd reality. So even if god does exist in some fashion, it most certainly is not worthy of human worship. Let alone believing in some bronze age mythology made up by humans playing the longest game of “telephone” before writing anything down…
I do not believe the “judeo christian” god exist anymore than Odin, Zeus, unicorns, or leprechauns exist. But a god like being that has or had some sort of mastery over quantum mechanics…a very distant possibility that I wouldn’t rule completely out, but wouldn’t seek out to worship either.
Report Post »Mizurax
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:17pmWhy did I waste my time reading this article? It says nothing that a million other atheists haven’t already said.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:08pmi agree with you. yet, just above, this was said: “I agree with you. It’s nice to see moderate atheists; good counterpoint to the loud-mouthed angry anti-theists who we hear about so often.” by LOCKED.
i’m wondering if the rest of the comments will be similar. a moderate atheist saying pretty much what i have said time and time again in these comments sections, only to get blasted.
Report Post »disque-0-duc
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:15pmIf this putz can ask why would religious people care to live when they could go straight to heaven then I would ask: Why would an atheist care to live? When they finally die it is all over. Just a carbon based organism decaying in the dirt. So what if you contributed a small amount or a huge amount to the advancement of the human race? We are all destined to the same end – ultimately to be forgotten. Then what is the point of all of this? God has a plan for mankind, to think that we know better than He is ridiculous and only serves to expose the colossal folly of man.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:05pmAmen, Amen. If I believed there was no God, I would own atheists as slaves. I would ruthlessly live and ruthlessly die. Imagine Scarface multiplied 1,000%
My conscience is my guide it tells me right from wrong and Thank God for the inerrent Word found in His bible that He has kept perfectly intact from Genesis through today. I can know Him who is perfect and through Jesus, in whom I have placed all my trust, I can have a relationship with God. I am forgiven for my sins which without such I would end up in the Lake Of Fire. Atheists are bound there unless they change their tune. Sinners, without faith in Jesus, are like Zombies wondering about for their next indigent whose face they wish to gnaw off for a meal. Sinner are repulsive sickening beasts. Unthinking, unloving, without natural conscience. I know I was one until 43 and Christ found me. Thanks be to God.
The only thing that currently keeps the world from ending are the plethora of Christian believers whom because of their being present tempur the worlds lust for every perversions that would devolve this world into chaos. This is true we are approaching the breakover point and soon the world will see a day like no other, “The Vanishing” cometh.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:12pm“Amen, Amen. If I believed there was no God, I would own atheists as slaves. I would ruthlessly live and ruthlessly die. Imagine Scarface multiplied 1,000%
My conscience is my guide it tells me right from wrong…”
can you not see how flawed that logic is? first you say that if you didn’t believe in God, you’d be a murdering crazy person. then, you say that your conscience is your guide! ha!
what you are saying is that your fear of hell keeps you in line. that’s not conscience, that’s scary.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:42pmTo PhillyAtheist, A conscience that is controlled and heightened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you inner dialog is listening for God’s Holy Spirit to intercede against the Old Man in the flesh.
I’ve no doubt you can not understand. You credit your own “rosy” personality for having kept your perversions, and lusts from becoming public knowledge in a way that ends your sorry behind in prison.
If I knew beyond any doubt that there was no God then what would stop me. You got guns…I can get more. You want Johnny Law to protect you, as King of this World I can get the best-of-the-best gun-slingers money can buy…“You are paying”. This is the mobster mentality that is easy to slip into if you decide to sit on the throne as god. This is who Satan is. Are you so blind to that truth?
Why bother! The argument is beyond your grasp.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:48pm“A conscience that is controlled and heightened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you inner dialog is listening for God’s Holy Spirit to intercede against the Old Man in the flesh.”
perhaps you have multiple personalities? you’ve got a whole lot of folks up their in your head, that’s for sure. it‘s no wonder you can’t find room for information.
i’m not even sure how to respond to the rest of it. you make allegations as though you know me, so it’s kinda hard to converse with you. did one of those dudes in your head meet me somewhere?
Report Post »Infidelephant
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:52pm“If I believed there was no God, I would own atheists as slaves.”
So…. if you were an atheist (’believed there was not God”) you would own other atheists as slaves.”
As is often the case… you’re not very bright, are you?
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:54pmINFIDEL – i caught that too but figured i’d let it slide. the other comments were meatier with ridiculosity.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:03pmThat did not take long. When devoid of knowledge attack, attack, attack.
Report Post »Atheists – my bible depicts verbal interchanges with your type to be worthless.
JohnnyComeLately
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:12pm@buzzard – I’m with PhillyAthiest in questioning the “logic” in your morality. You’re claiming that if you did not have a magical sky monkey ready to spank your ass down hard, you’d do whatever you wanted with no concern for the repercussions.
Wow – how moral is that! The only reason you don’t kill is because you might get a metaphysical smack-down? Funny – I am an atheist, yet I understand that murder (and slave ownership) is just plain wrong.
Maybe it is a good thing that you are superstitious enough to believe that magical sky monkey is watching your ass.
Report Post »Infidelephant
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:12pm“Atheists – my bible depicts verbal interchanges with your type to be worthless.”
Yep – couldn’t agree more. My reason and good sense typically “depicts” “verbal” interchanges with YOUR type to be equally worthless.
It wasn’t an attack. I was pointing out your oxyMORONic statement.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:32pmWell gotta go! So much fun to give atheists a better understanding of what they have got to look forward towards. BTW: It is great you atheists have all come here to defend your fearless leader Todd. It is because of your feeling of kinship towards Todd that I get to tell you about Jesus. You all need to put your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Without belief in Him you are going to hell…this little exchange has guaranteed that you will have “NO” excuse at your judgement. Will those who have spoken about Jesus be vindicated? Yes.
Feigning a pretense of ignorance will not endear you to the Righteous Judge. Take you punishment like…..well….the punished.
Report Post »C’ya
Infidelephant
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:40pmIf believing in your Jesus turns me into something that sounds even SLIGHTLY like you, I say NO FRICKIN’ THANKS!
(ugh… can you imagine?)
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:16pm@INFIDELEPHANT
I’ve often said that if the only thing I knew about Christians was gleaned from some of the comments here, I would think it was the biggest joke on the planet.
I am a Christian, but I believe there is a time and a place to ‘witness’ (as my Evangelical brothers would say). Some seem to think they have done a good days work by telling people that don’t believe in Jesus that they are going to hell.
Even Jesus spoke in parables to the people, so that by not hearing, they weren’t condemned. He was looking for those who had ‘eyes to see and ears to hear’, in other words; those who were receptive.
He spoke harshly to the religious leaders of the time, because they should’ve known better. The others, he let them do as they pleased.
“Judge not, lest ye be judged” is my motto. You believe as you like, and allow me the same.
The beauty of the 1st amendment is that we get to speak our opinions without being punished. The flip side is, we must allow others the same. This takes politeness. Without the free flow of ideas how can we learn? Some ideas may seem silly to us, but it our duty to be civil. Some people feel the need to judge, condemn and belittle those who think differently, thus stifling the whole process. It might be better if my fellow Christians would stop trying to convert everyone and worry about converting themselves.
Report Post »Caleb-Texas
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:42pmDear BuzzardSays,
I am sorry to re-post this in here but I mistakenly responded to your comments about Catholicism in the main tread and not in this one…if you can find it let me know what you think…
Thanks,
Caleb
Report Post »usedCZARsalesman
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:50pmBROTHER_ED…that is perfectly put, so sick of “Christians” going straight for the “you’re going to hell” line. Atheists aren’t going straight to hell, neither are gays, liars, cheats, ect. EVERYONE has the offer of salvation afforded to them every single second they are alive. Jesus was NOT a hater, nor are we called to be.
My only issue with “all of atheism” is what their community has been doing to education/public display of faith. The dramatic fall from common decency and morality in this culture is a direct reflection of secularists/atheists constant assault on the Christian founding of this nation. Likewise, the “force feeding” of theories that are no more provable than Creationism, to our youngest and most impressionable members of society, is an attack on the FAMILY’S perview…however, in the end, we will ALL come to know the truth. Until that time, those of us bearing the mantel of Christ need to start acting in a way that better reflects our calling.
Report Post »SoNick
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 6:28pm@BuzzardSays
Report Post »You’re not very good at this debating thing, are you? Your major complaints about atheists seems to be that they are either a): ignorant or b): aggressive. And how do you try to prove that point? By being simultaneously ignorant AND aggressive. Then you flee the scene with a sense of self satisfaction because you damned us all to hell and we’re just too stupid to hear your friendly warning. How does your head not collapse under the weight of cognitive dissonance?
RhetoricalQuestion
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 8:30pmWasn’t the idea of Separation of Church and State meant to keep the State from influencing or controlling personal beliefs rather than keeping religions from influencing the State?
Report Post »“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security… etc” Read the Declaration of Independence
Granny58
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 1:57pmYep. I feel that if there is nothing after this, then no matter how long you have it is not long enough. Who cares if you live to 20, 100 or 500? It is a blink of an eye in eternity. And if there is nothing, why would I even care about advancing my genetics into future generations…what difference would it make? If you could say, it would benefit other people…well SO WHAT? They are still just animated dirt and will be lifeless dirt again. It is ONE of the things I am grateful to God for, a belief in the afterlife.
Report Post »RAGEAGAINSTTHEMACHINE
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:07pmI am a strong believer in the Lord and feel confident in my relationship with Him. It’s too bad that once disillusioned with the Catholic church, he didn’t seek out other religious perspectives instead of concluding they are all false. I, too, take issue with the Catholic church and their practices. Having said that, I feel that almost all religion worldwide share the same basic fundamentals (Muslims being the mirror image=backward, misguided, Evil) the story begins the same and gets changed about based o n mans interpretation of Gods word. I find it funny that this guy is willing to believe in “evidence” of the “big boom” which supposedly transpired Billions of years ago-yet denies any or all evidence in support of religion that has been discovered in just this very century, decade!? I rest comfortably in the fact that hundreds of Billions of people worldwide Believe and perhaps a few hundred thousand do not- yet want to tell us where the boundaries should lie in our civilization/communities! Aside from that, this poor guy has been lied to and taught untruths, as so many have, regarding separation of church and state in America and is fundamentally misguided to begin with. Why, if he’s made up his mind, is he so involved in pursuing the issue further? I have to believe that God has blessed him, is patiently waiting his return to Him. Sorry so darn long :)
Report Post »Strnj1
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:35pmSometimes we have to hit bottom before we look up…
His buddies in the WH are whipping that up for ‘im…
Report Post »SovereignSoul
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:04pmHow can hundreds of billions of people believe when the total population of the Earth is only 7 billion?
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:13pmSOVERIGN – hey, when discussing religion all facts can go right out the window. too funny!
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:19pmReal meat and ‘taters. Thanks for sharing. I was a Catholic and now I am evanglical Assembly Of God/ non-denominational. I believe in Jesus for my salvation. And my family is growing in the admonition of the Lord. We struggle and fight to stay on the straight and narrow path as long as we live. I was 43-years old before I knew Jesus…[go figure] St Mary Catholic Parochial school in Centralia, IL where I was abused by the lunatic nuns, especially Sister Cecilia. Who punched, kicked, ripped hair, and was the most un-Godly representative I ever had the misfortune to meet.
Today I have forgiven her and realize that I should have always put my faith in God instead of men, but as I child what did I know. I thought I really deserved the punches and kicks from this “godly” woman. She wouldn’t get by with it today,though were it my children. I’d see her in prison, where she might just meet a deity she supposedly represented, Jesus.
My parents knew this was going on and did nothing of note…good Catholics not wanting to air the dirty laundry. It makes me sick to my stomach to think of. What can you say Catholics have put all their eggs into the “Mary, mother of God” basket and will wail, and gnash their teeth at the great throne judgement. I wish it were not so.
Report Post »SonOfThunder
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 4:34pmCatholics, being an ex catholic myself, are not taught the Bible. The guy is just lost. The guy is right about CAtholicism being a pagan religion like Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. It is pagan with all their idol worship of Mary, statues of their saints, and the wafer. It is simple he just needs to repent and trust in Jesus to spend our eternal life with Jesus. Jesus said,”.Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it”
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 4:16amThe Catholic Faith is the ROCK that JESUS asked PETER to build His Church upon. There is Nothing PAGAN about it, there is everything SOLID about it. They are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Nothing they believe is a whim. There are decades of study and discussion, by the greatest minds in every generation. Catholics are also human (this is about the peds. that make up less than 1% of the huge number of Catholics devoted to doing God’s work on earth). I love being a Catholic. IT truly is HOME for me. Nothing else even comes close. Nothing else stands the thorough logical scrutiny as our Catholic Faith. They don’t chase people. People are called by God to come to them. We have to study. I challenge anyone to find a better Biblical Study Course than the Catholic: Great Adventures Bible Study. IF you are seeking the real deal, give it a try. You may be amazed.
Report Post »Berbel73
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:01pmIt is quiet clear based on Mr. Stiefel’s answers that he has little to no understanding of religion and theology and the differences between the two. Mr. Stiefel’s statement that, “It claims to be monotheistic, yet actively promotes belief in other supernatural deity-like beings, such as Satan” when describing his characterization of Catholocism as a false religion is a prime example of his ignorance. I find it rather humorous however that while Mr. Stiefel claims to be an athiest he has in fact choosen a religion based on his own admission. He states, “all atheists have faith in terms of trusting other people”. Faith in humankind is secular fundamentalism, and Glenn and rabbi Lapin went into great detail in describing it on GBTV this past February. Here is a link to it, and maybe just maybe Mr. Stiefel will watch it and educate himself on what he claims to know so much about and summarily discredits.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/beck-rabbi-lapin-tackle-baal-the-rise-of-secular-fundamentalism-on-gbtv/
Report Post »USA_Patriot75
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:23pmYeap, this atheist does have a religion, it is called Secular Humanism. And of course like ALL atheist he has the blind faith that there is no God. Amazing how atheist do not see their own contradictions.
Report Post »unwine99
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:32pmI doubt very seriously that Glenn Beck and Rabbi Lapin are the go to guys for learning about anything. Glenn is an idealogue like any other idealogue — he sees the world as a disassembled puzzle and of course, he alone knows where the pieces are to be placed. Here’s a thought, Berbel — think for yourself.
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:47pmactually he is kind of right, the catholic church while claiming to be monotheistic does pray to other beings, saints, mary etc, these things are not part of the new testament church.
Report Post »Mary a human being, they pray to her? that is a false god, she has no power of any type to do anything.
So while he is right he is wrong
Berbel73
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:04pmAd hominem attacks unwine99?, I’m disappointed. You can‘t present an argument to what Rabbi Lapin and Glenn laid out so you resort to calling Beck an idealogue and you feel that you’ve somehow proven something? And worse you have the nerve to tell me to think for myself? Wow, just wow. Pot I’d like to introduce you to some one, this is kettle; kettle meet pot.
Report Post »Berbel73
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:17pmLandon410, I want you to type out here a Catholic prayer to a saint or to Mary. You say that there are prayer to them, I’d like to hear one. Let me guess you are going to say the “Hail Mary”. Well you’re wrong, The “Hail Mary” is not a prayer to Mary, it is a prayer asking Mary for forgiveness. That’s a huge difference. I was raised Catholic and I can tell you right now that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. While The church admires and respects what Mary and the saints represent they are not prayed to, period.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:31pmIt takes too much faith to be an atheist. Frank Turek would debate this guy to a point where this atheist would assume the fetal position, sucking his thumb. Right there on stage.
It angers me that atheists think we Christians are not thinkers, or have been skilled in the abilities of logical thought. I have a 167 I.Q. and believe in Jesus and God. Nothing else makes any rational sense. But, atheists have skulls thick as the iron of a Civil War era 100-pound mortar. Nothing of real spiritual value is going to penetrate.
Pity that they are bound for being “Left Behind”. But C’est la vie! Maybe that event will shake some sense into their brain pan?
Report Post »unwine99
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:39pmBuzzard, your iq is not 167 and Berbell, you continue to make my point.
Report Post »Berbel73
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:56pmAnd once again unwine99 you show that you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation to back up your position so you make ad hominem attacks.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:58pm@LANDON410
You obviously do not understand Christianity.
Saints are mentioned in the bible close to 100 times and are part of the early Christian church that witnessed and compiled the bible.
Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 12 that we are all part of the body of Christ, the church, and we all have different gift. The saints are still part of that body and pray for us.
John describes the prayers of the saints in Revelation 5:8.
So we are all part of the body and we pray for each other. We do not believe that the saints are gods.
Do you ask your family or friends to pray for you? Do you believe that we are raised up into heaven?
Then why not ask those members of the body to pray for you?
Your hatred is unfounded.
Report Post »SonOfThunder
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 4:49pmBuzzard has got it right. Catholics are worshipping idols. This guy stifiel will be separated from God once he dies if he does not repent and put his trust in Jesus. I pray he does like many here.
Report Post »SoNick
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 7:31pm@BuzzardSays
Report Post »Frank Turek, really? The master of false analogies? The great mover of goalposts? The dizziying speed talker who’s all flash and no substance? Google his debate with Christopher Hitchens and look at your hero getting intellectually destroyed.
unwine99
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:58pmI’m glad the world is finally moving away from religion — it won’t be many more decades before it is only in history books. It’s exciting to see humans and society evolve before my very eyes.
Report Post »Thomas
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:08pmGod is not a belief or a religion but a person (not a man) whom you get to know personally and then trust. Faith in God is simply trusting the person you know personally. Blind faith and Blind non-belief are both stupid. Get to know there person, God.
Report Post »Kitsune
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:10pmSorry, but “the world” isn’t moving away from religion in the slightest. Islam grows bigger, more powerful, and more bold with every passing day
Just because people are being frog-marched away from Christianity doesn’t mean that all religion is dying.
And Islam will NOT put up with Atheists attacking it.
Report Post »usedCZARsalesman
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:14pmwhat a sad thing to be happy about. The FACT is that society, science, civilization, ect would be NOWHERE w/o religion. The entire world dives into darkness and madness when God is absent…hey, that’s a lot like what is happening NOW! It’s funny to me that you can EASILY see the correlation between a decline in civilization and a decline of God in public. Too bad atheists are blinded by their ignorance and they can’t see it.
Report Post »Rayblue
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:29pmThe world isn’t moving away from religion in any noticeable fashion.
Report Post »You seem to be moving away from the world and deeper into your own impulsiveness.
unwine99
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:58pmYa ya ya, I know, without god there is darkness and so forth. Blah Blah Blah I‘ve heard it all before and it never gets less ridiculous but it’s your right to be ridiculous. I’m just glad, as I said, that the world is moving from religion but it is sort of pathetic how some of you are so fearful of an invisible person and how shallowly adherent you are to an ancient doctrine. The bible is a delightful piece of literature, however — it’s fascinating in its romance and cruelty.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:12pmUnwine99,
Bakatcha! Blah, blah, blah…I’ve heard it all before. You and your atheist friends will someday bow down and kneel before Jesus. Just before you go to that place of eternal torment. Not that I really care because “Free Will” is for you, and it is for me.
I have chosen life and freedom and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Nothing else matters…this debate is worthless and is meaningless to me. Simply a way to say…“I stand opposed against you atheist fools”. I am angry at you disregard for Jesus but He will be your judge and you will find that this life in this sick-twisted world is the best it is ever going to get for you. On my side of the spectrum this sick-twisted world is the worst it is ever going to get for me, and my Christian brothers.
You’ll never get it but someday…you to will believe in Jesus. And then what!
Report Post »Rayblue
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:22pmImpulsive little critter, aren’t you.
Report Post »You’re only allowed as much understanding as your capacity to comprehend affords you.
Ya, ya, ya that.
RLTW
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:42pmIf that were to happen it would be a sad day, it will be the day human instinct dies. God is instinctual in man, God or some form of deity has been found in every culture, the Spanish didn’t have to teach natives in south America how to worship they just changed the idol for a cross. The ability to believe in God is specifically instinctual in man; God gave man his soul, before Christianity only Kings had that honor. I can understand some of what atheists dislike about religion when it’s reduced to a creed by the people whose job it is to cultivate understanding either misuse it or claim to be the only doorway of knowledge and faith.
Atheists reject the idea of blind faith; I would say I do to because only the faithless can be blind. It requires true sight/insight to look within you and know that God is who anchors us.
Report Post »binge_thinker
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:31amA comprehensive demographic study of more than 200 countries finds that there are 2.18 billion Christians of all ages around the world, representing nearly a third of the estimated 2010 global population of 6.9 billion. Christians are also geographically widespread – so far-flung, in fact, that no single continent or region can indisputably claim to be the center of global Christianity.
So tell us again how religion or Christianity is fading away again.
http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Global-Christianity-worlds-christian-population.aspx
Report Post »no_more_harkin
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:53pmThe rights of the citizens of this country are based in a higher power, that mere men should not be able to take away.
Report Post »Once you throw out the creator, anything is possible. And as we’ve seen throughout history, relative morality never works. Basing morals and laws around what is acceptable at that time is done at our own peril.
We are human with flaws, once we stop answering to a higher power, we are doomed.
It’s not theory, it is fact that has been repeated hundreds of times throughout history.
Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:07pmThere is nothing in the Bible resembling our American liberties.
And having “God” in the equation has not prevented Christians from attempting to keep those “God-given rights“ away from anyone they deem ”unChristian.”
Report Post »sawbuck
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:28pmBruce P.
Report Post »Your comment is wrong on so many levels…
To try and reason with a hateful bigot as yourself ….
Would be a total waste of time. You’re a hopeless twit ..!
barber2
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:50pmBRUCE: When you speak in absolutes you speak in the error of absolutes. Can tell you are too “ smart ” to believe in a higher being…
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:16pmi‘m starting to think people don’t understand what the word bigotry means.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:38pm@PHILLYATHEIST
Or at least what ‘ad hominem’ means.
Have fun today, but not too much fun!!
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:50pmBROTHER ED – that’s funny, i just said hi to you above in another conversation!
i will, this is right in my wheelhouse! you too!
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:54pmTo Bruce P.,
Yes there is…
When Eve plucked that apple off the tree of knowledge and had her first big bite, then passing the apple for that next big bite to Adam who was standing there with her they exhibited “Free Will”. Liberty.
In America liberty has devolved(micro) to licentiousness. There was a day when men of honor and renown walked the farmlands, cities, forests, and valleys of this great nation America, that they helped to create with blood, sweat, and tears.
Now we have a “malignant narcisist” in the oval office. We have lunatic drugged out hippies Occupying what they don’t own. And atheists using the court of man’s law to impugn and destroy the very fabric of decent humanity that Christian brethren brought to this country. Free will has destroyed everything and we are racing towards a culmination event so spectacular that not even and atheist will be able to say Poo-Poo, too.
Report Post »phrispirit
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 4:07pmI find the notion that we would all be evil if not for religion ridiculous. Morality can be reached quite logically and more thoroughly than by following one of the many religions on this planet. Are they all correct? Why not, and how would anyone ever really know? If religion gives us morality, then what about Islam? What about the many examples in the old testament where morality is whatever the creator’s whim says at any moment? If the creator made us, then why did he make our only tool of survival our minds, and then tell us not to use them?
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 7:40pmBruce P.
My spouse is definitely not Christian. I don’t know what they are. But no one has attempted to take anything away from unless it was money & we know who does such things.
Report Post »sawbuck
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 8:32pmPhillyatheist
Maybe YOU need to brush up on the word…here let me help you.
~~~~~
BIGOT
Definition
NOUN
1.
intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is the “essence” ..Of…BRUCEP..!
Do a fact find on this “word”…. yourself.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 10:35pmSAWBUCK, I challenge you then, please show us in the Bible where anything resembling the Bill of Rights can be found…
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 10:37pmBUZZARDSAYS — I was not talking about the modern day, but the very basis of our government and freedoms, the Constitution. There is nothing resembling the Bill of Rights to be found anywhere within the Bible.
Report Post »sawbuck
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 7:47amWell here you go Brother_Ed and PhillyAtheist
I just wanted to point out your guys (high-minded -hypocrisy )
I guess you BIGOTS are the ONLY ones that have permision to use the word..
Her are some examples from quick-draw-McBruceP
I even put parentheses around the ( key words ) so you can smoke your blunts or huff gasoline… while listening to dark side of the moon ..In your guys mommy’s basement.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce P.
Posted on May 3, 2012 at 8:34pm
The reason she will only have progressives to work with is because the conservatives have decided to (embrace religious bigotry), would rather turn away atheists despite these same atheists sharing the same political beliefs.
Bruce P.
Posted on March 25, 2012 at 7:33pm
Flowerbell, you are absolutely right, there is good and evil. And you see it every time you look in the mirror. You are disgusting, celebrating the death of an innocent person and hoping it leads to ethnic cleansing. Your words sound just like the murderer’s note. Get out of my country,( you bigot.)
Bruce P.
Report Post »Posted on April 13, 2012 at 12:50pm
Funny how many (people let their bigotry), hatred and irrational fears stop them from voting for someone they would otherwise agree with because of who they are in love with.
binge_thinker
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:39am@ Bruce
And you do know that the LAW and the US CONSTITUTION recognizes that rights derive directly from that ‘imaginary being in the sky’ as clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence. Ergo do away with that ‘imaginary being in the sky’ do away with the very rights embodied in said Declaration and the subsequent Bill of Rights.
Instead of your snappy assertions I’d love you to make a case for individual rights from within a materialistic worldview. Go ahead. I need a good laugh.
Report Post »palerider54
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:46pmTell you what you need to do. Start dropping a match into a can of gas and get back to me when you see a living organism that was created by the big bang crawling away from it.
I tried in my youth to believe in evolution, but I just did not have enough blind faith to accept the impossible.
I’ll stick with God, because with him, all things are possible.
The only thing God can not do is lie. He said 6 days, it was 6 days.
Report Post »He said he created man from the dust and breathed life into him, and then created woman from his rib, that is exactly what he did.
He says there was a great flood. There was a great flood.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:09pmWhy do you assume one must “believe in evolution” to be an Atheist?
Most Atheists begin as Atheists, not Evolutionists. In other words, most people who identify themselves as Atheists begin with what the name denotes … they do not “believe” in God because they have seen no evidence that God exists. I suspect many Atheists (probably most) are as fuzzy on the specifics of evolutionary theory as most religious people.
Report Post »Naturally, Atheists do find themselves free to consider any explanation for origins (of matter, energy, life, etc.), but they are not bound to a particular explanation by virtue of their determination that there is no evidence for the existence of God. They are separate issues.
phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:19pm“I tried in my youth to believe in evolution”
you should try harder.
you seem to know an awful lot about this God you speak of. you two friends? what’s His favorite color? is He a beer or scotch Guy?
Report Post »SquareHead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:11pm@CONSERVATIVECANUCKLEHEAD
Because you are knuckleheads :-)
We believe that because we are under the assumption that you THINK!
The questions that has forever puzzled men are:
1. Why are I here?
2 Where did the I and the world come from?
3 Where am I going when I die?
4.What is the meaning of this?
Sure as an atheist you to must have these questions, and the widely accepted answers to people that wants to ignore God is evolution…. There by one can follow whatever one feels like. It helps with the guilty feelings of utter selfishness. Perhaps that is the answer, that one can be so utterly self absorbed or engrossed in self worship that one is able to not face the tough questions….
Everybody worships something, so if it is not God, or evolution, than it could be self, ones lust or appetite, success, money, sports hobbies, and so on…
So what do you worship?
Report Post »palerider54
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:02pmHey Philly,
I also believe that when I am kicking back in heaven, enjoying a cold frosty glass of ice tea with a cool breeze gently blowing the leaves and the grass, I will not be able to see you in all your torment and pain, but you will be able to see me. That will be part of your punishment, for all eternity. And you will know which of us it was that tried to warn you.
Repent while you still can.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 1:58amConservativeCanucklehead,
“they do not “believe” in God because they have seen no evidence that God exists.”
What you are saying is that you don’t believe in God because you have never seen any evidence. In other words, an absence of evidence is evidence of absence. This is a logical fallacy.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 3:50amKSTRET
Report Post »Uhh, I think you’ve wrapped your head around a twisted logic pole.
Of course the absence of any evidence that God exists causes me to believe God does not exist. To what other conclusion should it lead me???
Remember, the absence of evidence does not PROVE the non-existence of God. But it sure as heck does not incline the rational mind to belief in God.
I certainly cannot detect the slightest evidence that a teapot orbits our sun, and as a consequence I do not believe that such a teapot exists. Are you saying that you believe it does?
BigAl78
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 6:15am@PaleRider
Report Post »Oh look, another Christian threatening an atheist with damnation in hell. That’s sure to converte people! Nothing makes us say, “Wow, this is a god I should follow!” quite like the threat of eternal, ruthless torture because you chose the wrong belief system.
FatFreedom
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 8:54pm@bigal78
It is the truth though! And t is suppose to make you uncomfortable, and search out the truth for yourself. Start by reading the book of John, and then Romans and 2nd Timothy.
Deep down you know God is there..
Stop running.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 3:23amConservativeCanucklehead,
“Of course the absence of any evidence that God exists causes me to believe God does not exist. To what other conclusion should it lead me???”
It could lead you to being neutral on the subject. Seeing that you are not neutral, it indicates that the absence of evidence of God’s existence, is evidence of God not existing. That is a logical fallacy. Why? Because an absence of evidence doesn’t always mean that something mean does not exist.
There are many creatures that we believed were extinct that turn out not to be. A proposition is not shown to be false in the absence of evidence for it. A proposition could be true without any evidence.
You can’t simply state the atheist absence of evidence mantra. You need to make a case for why an absence of evidence is evidence of God not existing.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 3:26amCCHEAD,
“Of course the absence of any evidence that God exists causes me to believe God does not exist. To what other conclusion should it lead me???”
It could lead you to being neutral on the subject. Seeing that you are not neutral, it indicates that the absence of evidence of God’s existence, it evidence of God not existing. That is a logical fallacy. Why? Because an absence of evidence doesn’t always mean that something mean that something does not exist.
There are many creatures that we believed were extinct that turn out not to be. A proposition is not shown to be false in the absence of evidence for it. A proposition could be true without any evidence.
You can’t simply state the atheist absence of evidence mantra. You need to make a case for why an absence of evidence is evidence of God not existing.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 3:29amConservativeCanucklehead,
“I certainly cannot detect the slightest evidence that a teapot orbits our sun, and as a consequence I do not believe that such a teapot exists. Are you saying that you believe it does?”
Every atheist I have encountered online make the exact same arguments in the exact same order. Have you bothered to look up any arguments that refute Russell’s tea pot analogy. There are about a million of them.
First of all, it commits the category error logical fallacy and fallacies of equivocation.
1. No one doubts existence of tea pots.
2. Tea pots are physical and God is not.
3 You are comparing the belief of an orbiting tea pot to God
The tea pot analogy also fails with an absence of evidence defense. It’s not that we have an absence of evidence that there is a tea pot orbiting the sun, it’s that we have good evidence that there is not a tea pot in orbit. Tea pots are man made and we never launched fine china into space to orbit the sun.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 8:09pmSQUAREHEAD
For whatever it’s worth to you, I’ll try to answer your questions.
1. Why are I here?
This one I’ve got to answer with a question, because I just don’t see why there must be a single cosmic answer here. Can it not be my own privilege to determine a meaning or purpose for my life? Does everyone have to have or create the same purpose?
In any case, I really do not find myself troubled by this question, just like I also don’t fret over why palm trees are here, or why unicorns are not.
2 Where did the I and the world come from?
This is definitely a big “I don’t know” for me at this point. And again, I don’t fret about it either.
3 Where am I going when I die?
The evidence suggests that I do not “go” anywhere. My body ceases and my precious life (precious to me, at least) ends. Therefore I am inclined to make each day count in a way that is enjoyable and/or meaningful to me.
4.What is the meaning of this?
This question always seem to strike Theists as somehow profound. But it’s too vague, too ill-defined. Perhaps it’s really indistinguishable from Question 1; in which case there is no single, universal “meaning” to this. I can choose for myself what is meaningful or significant or important. What bothers you about that?
As you can see, I’m plenty comfortable with uncertainty. And the fact that I do not believe there is evidence for God does not mean that I own or advocate a bunch of alternative explanations to even thes
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 8:15pmcontinued from above
… these most common existential questions.
Before I sign off, I would offer just a couple other observations on another of your comments:
Report Post »“… the widely accepted answers to people that want to ignore God is evolution…”
+ I’m not sure why you would characterize things this way. I, for one, don’t want to “ignore” God, any more than I want to ignore the Easter Bunny or Poseidon.
+ Many Atheists do find evolution to be a plausible explanation for the biological diversity on earth, but a person who finds no credible evidence for God is not NECCESARILY persuaded by – or even familiar with – the nuances of evolutionary theory. (I’ve noted before that I suspect most Atheists are just as fuzzy on the theory as are most Theists.) In other words, disbelief in God does not require belief in evolution. Moreover, even if evolutionary theory could be universally proven to be false it would not invalidate the Atheist position respecting deities.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 8:22pmMore for SQUAREHEAD
“It helps with the guilty feelings of utter selfishness.”
+ Why would you characterize someone as utterly selfish simply because he sees no evidence to support the existence of God? Sorry, but that’s a strange conclusion.
+ Also, why is Atheism synonymous with “self worship” in your mind?
“So what do you worship?”, you asked me in closing.
Report Post »+ I don’t “worship” anything. If, on the other hand, you mean to ask: what do you care most about I’d have to say … my kids. Definitely, my kids.
Come to think of it, might not our psychological inclination as adults to discover a Divine Parent be an instinctive, predictable extension of our physical need for parental protection in infancy and childhood? Hmmm …
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 8:30pmKSTRET
Report Post »“You can’t simply state the atheist absence of evidence mantra. You need to make a case for why an absence of evidence is evidence of God not existing.”
+ Why in the H-E-Double-hockeysticks do EYE need to make that case???
As I’ve said many times before, the lack of evidence for deities does not PROVE their non-existence; but it very definitely allows me to rationally maintain my “belief” that God does not exist. I’m not saying that deities cannot exist, merely that I do not believe they exist.
And again I would ask: What SHOULD a lack of evidence lead me to believe about deities, or anything else?
Are you saying that you believe in God because you cannot find any evidence of Him?
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 8:54pmKSTRET
“Have you bothered to look up any arguments that refute Russell’s tea pot analogy. There are about a million of them.
First of all, it commits the category error logical fallacy and fallacies of equivocation.
1. No one doubts existence of tea pots.
2. Tea pots are physical and God is not.
3 You are comparing the belief of an orbiting tea pot to God
The tea pot analogy also fails with an absence of evidence defense. It’s not that we have an absence of evidence that there is a tea pot orbiting the sun, it’s that we have good evidence that there is not a tea pot in orbit. Tea pots are man made and we never launched fine china into space to orbit the sun.
Just for a bit of fun … I would point out that we cannot “know” or “prove” that teapots can only be made by humans. Other beings may call their teapots by a different name, but that would be a distinction without a difference. Who knows, the teapots (even ours) may have yet another name for themselves too.
Report Post »Additionally, how could you “know” (or “prove”) that humans have never launched fine china into space?
Finally, you reject the teapot analogy because no-one doubts the existence of teapots and because they are physical, while God (yours, at least) is not.
Okay, so let’s ditch the teapot and make it Zeus instead … I find no evidence that Zeus lives in orbit around the Sun. Can that scenario work for you?
krispy01
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:43pmAs a Christian I’ve always looked at belief vs un-belief in this way. If someone like Mr. Stiefel is right, we all lose nothing. If I’m right, he loses everything.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:16pmYou forgot to say you gain everything that is of worth. Eternal life in heaven. That is sweet victory.
Report Post »krispy01
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:38pmIndeed ! Thanks for adding that !
Report Post »TROLLMONGER
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:41pmAll religions preach love but are truely full of HATE, period!
Report Post »Rayblue
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:32pmThat’s it in a nutshell.
Report Post »YOUR nutshell.
flipper1073
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:34pmThe only religion that I can think of that Preaches
Report Post »Hate is Islam.
barber2
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:38pmTROLL: at least you haven’t channeled your inner Eliasium… please keep that one locked up ..
Report Post »SquareHead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 4:58pm@Trollmonger
You sound like an authority on love. Why don’t you enlighten us simpletons? Do take the time and share some more of your amazing intellect so we might get close to achieve true knowledge and love…
What is that a Nazi flag ?
Report Post »binge_thinker
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:41amYour screen name says it all.
Report Post »Arc
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:38pmOnce again, Your focus on something you do not believe in is a waste of your time. What is your objective?
Could it be, other’s faith makes you uneasy?
Why do you worry about something that by you own admission, has no strength or meaning?
Separation of Church and State? What state or government office FORCES anyone to believe,?
Your contention that my desire to allow religion to be part of my life wherever I may be, enrfringes upon your right NOT to worship. The government DOES NOT force you to accept something you do not believe in, that’s called freedom. Your desire to deprive me of a visual representation of my faith wherever I choose is also an infringement of my rights.
Are your CONVICTIONS regarding my religion so weak that you feel insecure?
Report Post »snooop1e
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:50pmIf this young man were to sit in a room full of uranium he would not be able to SEE the radiation or FEEL the affect it is having on his body. His inability to see or feel the radiation does not mean that it does not exist.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:53pmARC
“What is your objective?”
+ Obviously I can’t speak for Mr Stiefel, but my objective is to stimulate free and rational thought.
“Could it be, other’s faith makes you uneasy?”
Report Post »+ Yes, people who live and act according to delusions and superstitions definitely make me “uneasy”.
Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:10pmSNOOP1E — while one may not be able to see or feel the effects of radiation with their bare sense alone, the effects are still measurable. Say with a Geiger counter. Or in the effects it has on his body.
One cannot say the same for god.
Report Post »NJBarFly
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:25pmAtheists don’t really care what you believe. I know it’s hard to believe, we we really don’t care. We do care however when politicians and government officials with your beliefs make laws or rules based upon them. This can be things like discrimination towards gays, barring the teaching of science in the classroom and replacing it with Christian myths, decisions about the reproductive rights of women, etc… If you would just believe what you believe and leave the rest of us alone, we wouldn’t be so vocal.
Report Post »flipper1073
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:10pm@ BARFLY
Report Post »Hi Barfly,
So what You’re saying is Christians are free to believe in GOD.
as long as it doesn’t interfere with the Marxist Agenda ?
Is that About Right ? Thanks
phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:21pmSNOOPIE – ah, but we have instruments that could tell him the radiation is there, and even how much of it. show me an instrument that can test God‘s existence and we’ll be on to something.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:27pmYo Bruce;
In the book of Romans it states that if you have eyes to see, you see the evidence of my existance, and no one has any excuses … I chose to believe those words over you’re words.
Yo Njbarfly:
You do the very same thing that you condemn us for … you want the laws to refect you’re “belief”/faith … and they will always be at odds until “something” puts an end to them.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:31pmSNOOOP1E
Report Post »Bruce is right, of course. We DO have a means of measuring, validating the existence of radiation. And no such means exists (yet) to objectively validate God. Religious folks go waaaay beyond merely asserting the unverifiable existence of God however, detailing a list of personal attributes and principles of conduct that He demands of human beings.
The fact is “God” (whatever that means) remains mere conjecture, and as such is not something one could rationally insist exists. One might theorize that God exists, and search for means of validating that theory. Until we develop some objective, repeatable means of validation one could not rationally build upon the theory. So, for those determined to live rationally, the debate ends there.
Now, It is true that radiation existed before our ability to detect, measure, or understand it. But the only rational conclusion we could draw with respect to the unfortunate young man in the radiation room you hypothesize is that some unseen force was present. We could not rationally insist that we understood a source or intention of the unseen force, or that it wanted human beings to behave in a certain way, according certain principles.
Also, in your radiated young man illustration EVERYONE would be able to observe the effects of the unseen force. Consequently, we would ALL believe in the unseen force in that room. And I think all theists will agree that when the evidence is undeniable there remains no need for, or virtue in,
phillyatheist
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:39pmCONSERVATIVECHUCKLEHEAD – nailed it! well said.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:02pmLast word — missing above — was “faith”.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:07pm@CONSERVATIVECANUCKLEHEAD & PHILLYATHEIST
I would argue that we have written accounts by people who have claimed to talk to God face to face, – Moses for example – but are written off as crackpots.
We Latter Day Saints also have the testimony of Joseph Smith, Jr who claims to have seen both the Father and the Son, but he is also written off as a crackpot.
The question is what do we do in the case of conflicting ideas, when there is confusion?
Since the two people mentioned above are not here to ask, we are told in James 1:5 “If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
Some of us have done that and gotten what we believe to be an answer. Others have either not prayed, or received an answer.
PHILLY, you know that I respect you and am not one of those who condemn you to hell for not believing. I am simply answering the question of how we know.
Report Post »BuzzardSays
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:42pmGood thoughts. Jesus is King, Wonderful Counselor, Name Above all Names. I, for one, can not wait to know Him in the physical realm of Heaven. But, first, lots of work here.
Report Post »spellwight
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 6:10pm“What state or government office FORCES anyone to believe,?”
Every time a person has to sit through prayers at government meetings, they’re forced to. Every time a kid has to sit through some religious indoctrination at a public school, they’re forced to. Christians especially have gotten so used to overpowering everyone else they can’t seem to understand that in this country everyone has the same rights. Even those who believe differently than them. That’s the point atheists are trying to make. Feel free to believe what you want but when you infringe on the rights of others you’ve crossed the line. How would you feel if your city government meetings opened with a muslim prayer? To be fair, it has to be all or nothing.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 8:57pmYo Conservativeknucklehead:
You really need a shorter name …you say ” until we develop some objective, repeatable means of validation one could not rationally build apon the theory” (God) … and you continue …
How about if you apply that same means of thought to the theory of evolution …
Report Post »Excuse me, but did you just paint yourself into the corner?
Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 10:49pmFLIPPER — I am curious. Of which part of allowing homosexuals to live their lives as consenting adults harming no others, allowing women reproductive freedom, or teaching SCIENCE in SCIENCE classes is part of the Marxist agenda? Which part of not allowing the tenets of a particular faith to dictate the lives of others who may not believe in that faith is part of the Marxist agenda?
You are actually proving a point I made earlier; that despite talk of “god-given rights“ there are some Christians who seem to believe that their religion trumps these ”god-given” rights, and would seek to strip these rights from anyone they disagree with.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 4:16am4Truth
No, because I never even mentioned evolution.
Additionally, you have proven my point — which i have stated elsewhere on this site — that Theists often (wrongly) assume that “Atheist” equates to “Evolutionist”. I can only assume it is because they cannot respond directly to the Atheist’s basic premise, ie. that there is simply no legitimate evidence for God.
Report Post »flipper1073
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 10:50am@ BRUCE
You make Assumptions First I don’t hate Gays I have friends
an family members that are gay an lesbians. Non of which
desire to Marry.That’s my sticking point redefining Marriage.
Change the Laws so Civil Unions have all the same rights an
privileges as Marriage an I’m Fine with that.
But Marriage is One Man an One Woman [Period]
On abortion I‘m not a die hard Pro Lifer It’s simple for Me
Overturn Roe vs Wade Send it back to the States.
Some will have Liberal Laws, Some will have Restrictions.
Some will Ban except in the case of Rape, Incest,or Life of the Mother.
You choose where you live.
As to Science I Love Science I’m not a Scientist but I understand the
difference between a Theory an a proven Fact. Evolution doesn’t make
anymore sense to me than Adam an Eve. An entire Enormous Universe
from Nothing makes no more sense to me than a Population of 6 Billion
starting from 2 not even to mention Wipeing Out the entire population.
but one family with a Great Flood a few thousand years ago.
Devine Intervention by a Superior Intellegence is the only explanation
that makes sense to Me.
But don’t teach Theory as Fact offer information an Teach Critical Thinking.
If We Treat each Other With Respect We can Can have a Intellegent Conversation.
Report Post »binge_thinker
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 12:03pm@ Barfly
That’s cute but highly dishonest. As for your comment regarding Christians “leaving you alone”, which for you equates to public religious displays…you live in a predominantly Christian culture. You may as well be asking to remove NFL football from the public square. No matter how atheists try to spin it, the establishment clause, the Treaty of Tripoli, or whatever other canard you want to play does not equate to removal of religion from the public square, even though you really, really, really wish that it did.
Report Post »PlowMan
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:38pmAtheists defy logic. First, where did the gas and gravity come from in the first place in his explanation of the formation of the universe? Second, how do you explain that the most successful government on earth was started and, for many years, inhabited solely by Christians. Governments have not worked on this earth because they didn‘t follow God’s rules. This country started by following God’s rules and was very successful and changed the face of the earth in so many ways. Now that we have drifted we are going in the opposite direction. None of this is to say that I think this man should be forced to believe in God. What I do think is we should try to stick to a system that has worked for over two hundred years, and quite nicely if I might add.
Report Post »NineteenEighty4
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:30pmIf you truly believe governments have fallen because they didn‘t follow God’s wishes, what about all the people and all the governments that existed before your precious Christianity was ever a thought in somebody’s head? With that logic, God created those people, yet decided against revealing his existence to them, ultimately condemning them to imminent failure and collapse. Why would a benevolent creator ignore them so? Why would he allow the suffering of all of humanity for thousands of years only to reveal himself to a semi-literate society in the desert some 2000 years ago, a minor fraction of the time modern humans have been around? Logically, you come to realize that there is no such thing as God’s wishes. There are only the wishes of men, projected onto the God they themselves created.
Report Post »NJBarFly
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:33pmTo paraphrase your argument: “America has been a prosperous country for 236 years, therefore the 2000 year old story of a guy performing magic and rising from the dead is true.” Wow, you Christians sure do have impeccable logic. How can atheists even compete with such logic? All we have is mathematics, physics and empirical evidence to support our views.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:15pm@Plowman
“Second, how do you explain that the most successful government on earth was started and, for many years, inhabited solely by Christians.”
I’m a Christian, but this seems like an illogical approach to take. One could just as easily argue that Rome fell after converting to Christianity. Nations rise and fall irrespective of the religion of its leaders.
Report Post »uptickusa
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:34pmWhat kind of gas can create a beautiful butterfly from a ugly catapillar
Report Post »SimpleTruths
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:39pmThank you! You‘ve won today’s contest for the most ridiculous post.
Report Post »palerider54
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:06pmWhen you ask a question that progressives can not answer without admiting there is a
Report Post »God, then people like Simpleton have to riducule you. Its the only option they have.
Pontiac
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:52amWas that a question? Usually questions end with question marks. If it was a question then it must have had some sort of self deluded premise behind it.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:34pmA pretty good article. The guy obviously has a beef with religion, but doesn’t resort to name-calling, petty insults, or anything else. I’ll agree to disagree with most of his views – I can understand why he thinks what he thinks, but I believe in God and he doesn’t. At the end of the day neither of us would change the other’s mind.
Hopefully this series, like the interviews with Penn Jillette, will give us a good opportunity to see the more “moderate” atheists.
Report Post »JediKnight
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:33pmContinued from my previous post:
Finally, saying the government needs to be neutral on the topic means telling every religious person in office that they can’t thank God or pray or espouse their religion in public. This is completely against everything the Constitution stands for. You don’t lose your rights when you serve in office. We cannot have righteous politicians who are also non believers. It obviously isn’t working right now. Right now it’s “we need a new law to take care of this problem” instead of “people need to be responsible. We can’t come up with a new law to take care of every little problem because people will stop being responsible and instead ask us to control their lives.” We live in a free country but with freedom comes responsibility. This is the single largest reason why we have the HHS Mandate and Obamacare.
Report Post »PlowMan
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:46pmAwesome comments sir. I might add, and you kind of eluded to this, that religion has been pretty successful in keeping people in line. This is the reason, for amany years, guns and knives could be carried in public and people didn’t fear for their lives. They were merely and tool and that was the extent of it. It was the loss of the value of life (this was instilled by God, by the way) that led us down the road we are on with increasing homicides/ abortions and decreasing liberties.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:06pm@Jediknight
“We cannot have righteous politicians who are also non believers. It obviously isn’t working right now.”
(Raises an eyebrow)
So far as I know, there is only one avowed atheist in Congress. I daresay the problem isn’t non-believers, but people who only pay lip service to Christ or use their faith as a political tool to get votes. I think that a good, moral atheist is infinitely more righteous than a Congresscritter who claims that God is backing him in an election.
Report Post »freedom_gurl35
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:10pmI second this!
Report Post »Best_Patriot
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:28pmY’all worry so much about atheists, and black panthers, and goblins, and witches.
Very cute!
Report Post »Rayblue
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:35pmSo, what exactly are YOU worried about then ?
Report Post »barber2
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:41pmBEST: missing something …
Report Post »flipper1073
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:15pmHi! Missing Horses Ass
Report Post »soapbox55
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:28pmGod is not disturbed by a fool’s unbelief. Not believing won’t make God not exist.
Report Post »I have no proof other than what is derived by faith. Belief is the best pathway to
proving God. I would hope that more believers would show more love to nonbelievers
so that more would be won over. Isn‘t love God’s best atribute?
Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:05pmGod may not be disturbed, but it seems his faithful so often are.
Report Post »JediKnight
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:27pmHe lost me when he used the example of Muslims flying planes into buildings to bolster his point of “belief without evidence is ignorance”. I don‘t know a single other religion that doesn’t use miracles and other “coincidences” as proof of Gods existence. To my knowledge, Muslims are the only ones that promise virgins in reward for violence. Pretty much every other religion promises pain in return for violence and heaven in return for love.
The other problem I have is that he says he trusts people. I would’ve asked “Why?” How can you trust your fellow man without first getting to know him? Do you trust every random person you run into? I know I most certainly don’t. I trust God first and foremost. After that, trust is either earned or it‘s implicit based on whether or not you’re a friend of a friend or you’re a believer in God (people at Church get a little more trust than random strangers).
Continued in next post.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:21pmBrace yourself…the floodgates of venomous condemnations are about to open…anyone want to place bets on how many pages the declarations of “he’s going to Hell!” there will be?
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:26pmwith no doubt it will open, its good to have straight forward questions though, for example as I brought up, he discusses the laws of physics are why things are as they are, but ignores the laws of phyics when discussing creation/big bang
Report Post »he might not be a Christian, and according to my God you have the right to accept or deny God, but he left a large hole in his explination
Rayblue
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:41pmIf it disturbs your peace of mind so completely, then please…jump right in.
Report Post »Don‘t let the coffin lid hit you where the good Lord’s lit you.
Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:21pm“Second, according to the 2008 American Religious Identification Survey, 76% of Americans identify as Christian, while only 0.6% as Muslim. Given that there are more than 100 times more Christians in this country than Muslims, Christians are a far more influential and powerful group. The things that American atheists criticize (such as violations of separation of church/state, discrimination against atheists, deaths from faith healing, etc.) are problems all over the world, but in this country, those problems are mostly caused by radical Christians, not the relatively powerless Muslims.”
so did they find a lost paragraph to the constitution that actually says there is seperation of church and state? i haven’t found it yet
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:19pm“That said, I don’t believe that what exists around me is the result of only mere chance, though chance was a factor. I accept that our solar system is the result of gravity pulling a gas cloud together to form a star, planets and other objects over the course of billions of years. I understand this process was dictated by the laws of physics, just as everything around us is the result of the processes dictated by the nonrandom laws of nature. The evidence demonstrates that there was a Big Bang around 13.75 billion years ago. At this point, it is impossible to know what existed before the Big Bang because the evidence was destroyed in the explosion. Some insist that they are certain that their god existed before then. I find it interesting that some people have such conviction about something that is unknowable.”
this paragraph is contradictory, you can’t say these things are here because of the laws of phyics and than ignore the laws of phyics in your idea of how things came to be, you never answered how you deal with the fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed, and yet matter was created? without proof of this happened have you not placed your faith in an idea?
Report Post »isn’t there a term for a person who believes in something they cannot prove?
JediKnight
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:37pmYeah, I found that paragraph interesting too. Interesting in the way that only our section of the universe contains a habitable planet orbiting a star that’s actually considered rather small. We have yet to find another galaxy that contains a similar sized star with a planet orbiting in the right place that isn’t simply an empty rock.
But hey, it was all merely chance that the laws of physics coalesced at just the right time.
Report Post »Grubmeister
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 5:06pmHe has said there is no way to know what occurred before the big bang. This is a reasonable statement to make although I would question how anyone can know what is unknowable.
Aside from that. Matter and energy are interchangeable as we understand at this point. It is possible a singularity of pure energy exploded to then form matter. That does not address, in any way, what transpired “before” the big bang. That said, and I’m not a physicist, it is difficult, and possibly absurd to think of anything transpiring. Time may be of a very different nature at the point the singularity existed. Kind of like the old question about whether or not a tree makes a sound if nobody is there to hear it fall.
He has not contradicted himself.
The more troubling aspect of this is your assertion. You’re arguing the god of the gaps again. To paraphrase, what you’re attempting to say is “he can’t explain everything so I WIN!!! GAME OVER (SPIKE TO FOOTBALL AND PERFORM THE HAPPY DANCE) LET’S ALL GO HOME NOW AND IGNORE THE IMMORAL IDIOT.”
You should be ashamed of yourself. The man is being honest and you’re flinging poo.
Report Post »Centurian
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:18pmI didn’t read the article because I have heard and read the diatribe before.
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:23pmyou can say what you like about it, but some factual basis to disprove it would be helpful
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:24pmsorry for a second i thought you were talking about the article i posted.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:01pmThat is a shame. In dismissing an article before you read it, you are showing your closed-mindedness.
Report Post »Bad Kitty
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 3:13pmdon’t judge a book by its cover!
Report Post »Centurian
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 8:50pmCenturian,
Back up the boat here….let me clarify.
This man has had his posts here before. And, as usual, he makes a few comments, throws in a few observations from the Bible, then espouses how atheists are more humane than Christians.
Same old song and dance.
Look, all these articles do is split people into four camps:
-those who don’t care and move along
-those who want to straddle the fence and try to be friends with all
-atheists who bitterly fight Christians by stating we’re close minded
-Christians who post their beliefs (and occasionally a few passages of scripture) and try to persuade the atheists they are wrong
Stories like this have been posted here before, and they will again. So when I say I didn’t read it, it was because I have heard all of the arguments that atheists have made before. There is nothing new here in this article.
Oh, and by the way, just to verify my assumptions, I read it…. and I was right.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:16pmThis man was not named “Boot” for no reason.
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:14pminteresting that the catholic church turned him, everyone needs to read “The Trail of Blood” by J.M. Carroll
http://www.biblepreaching.com/trailofblood.html
you can read it there online for free.
Its a mixture of short book and sermon, it discusses the history of the catholic church and goes into detail of the history of the Christian church in the United States. Its short as far as books go, long as far as articles go, no problem to sit and read it all at once. only 43 pages.
I think it would be good for Mr. Stiefel to read as well, since he said at one time he did pursue God, and has issues and spefically named the Catholic church.
Report Post »JediKnight
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:31pmHe specifically named his Catholic Church and his senior retreat. I’m Catholic. I went on a retreat when I was a senior. I didn’t experience anything like what he talks about. Yes, they kept us up late, but not to the point of exhaustion. In fact, the one time we got one of the people to tell us what time it was (you’re suppose to be ignoring time) we were surprised at how late it was because we weren’t tired. We also didn’t feel tired when we got up. And peer pressure was most certainly not used to get us to talk about hard times we went through. We were encouraged to think about things we’d gone through and pray about them. We were given activities to do to help us understand what separation from God was like.
In other words, it sounds like he had some fairly extreme people running his retreat. Not good God fearing people. I‘ve heard more horror stories of his from Protestant denominations than I’ve heard from Catholic events.
Report Post »barber2
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:37pmThere is much hate information out there about the Catholic Church which has now become a lightning rod for the Left since it spoke out against ObamaCare. Check the bias/ background of the writer ..as one should always do on any topic.
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:52pm@ barber, you can’t make blank comments like that “research the writer” ok i have, i haven’t found anything that would refute anything he wrote, most of what he wrote isn’t opinion, biblical and historical fact, now instead of making comments with no merrit, come back with evidence to back your claim
Report Post »barber2
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:11pm“Evidence to back your claim” seems to be the Parrot Head phrase for this topic , atheism. Explain why the comment that people “ should check into the background ” of the sources of reading material ” has no merit.” Seems pretty sensible and non-inflamatory to me. You seem to have a bee under your saddle.
Report Post »Columbobear
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 7:36pmOk first off to all of you self-proclaiming Christians that slam anyone who believes differently from you and proclaim that non-believers will go to hell. Are no longer a christian because you are playing the judge, jury, and executioner… Thats Gods role (so says your bible). But whatever… The Crusades and Jihad are still currently going on and will not end until there are no believers left to fight, kill and die in the name of God. Anyways if we are so special and God made this earth for us what do you say to the fact that scientist have found another planet suitable for human life?
http://zeenews.india.com/news/space/scientists-find-planet-suitable-for-life_658592.html
I have a dream that some day mankind will no longer be a slave to be toyed with by god, alah, budah, ect. If there is only one true God then why did he come to us at a time when he/she/it knew that we would not be able to prove or explain his exsistence in the future. Or just keep believing in something that you know is just toying with you for his/her/its entertainment. Try to elighten yourself or blindly walk over the bridge they say exsists. Adapt and overcome. Evolve or die… this is the way of the world.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:11pmI agree with him that it will be impossible to eradicate religion. You can’t eradicate any form of delusional thinking.
Report Post »MRMANN
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:24pmThen conversely, one can’t eradicate any form of rational thought?
Report Post »Zorro6821
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:25pmAtheism is simply a word for soulless, empty, and without purpose. To think that the wonders of life and this amazing world is pure accident is foolish and very narrow thinking. Believing in a higher power is being humble and grateful for your time on earth, There is so much we do not know and will not until the after life. I guess when your young, wisdom is in short supply. Wisdom cannot be taught, but earned through life experiences. Good and Evil exist and that is why we have faith.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:33pmMrMann
Report Post »Do you want to eradicate rational thought?
rickc34
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:34pmI dare him and other aethiest to go to a middle eastern nation and share their views. As a christian I am tolerant of others beliefs. No one forced god on me and I don’t force him everyone must choose their own path. Why don’t we die and go to heaven? Well I will die one day and go to heaven but for now I am developing my relationship with God you just cannot say it those are just words you have to have it in your heart so it must be real. Just because you did not find what you expected what did you expect? I was 20 and hated religion when I became a Christian . Current history reinforces what the Bible says. Man will become a lover of himself and will say where is your God? And his coming? I can tell you this I would rather have a Doctor or Nurse that believes in God than one that does not. Your chances of survival will be better. Yeah I’m a Nurse and I listen to those I work with and can tell by what they say who believes and who just might write you off.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 12:37pm@Zorro
“without purpose.”
Well, he specifically addresses this in the article. You might want to read it before making a comment like this; he’s obviously found purpose without belief.
Report Post »flipper1073
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 1:25pm@Knucklehead
Religion Does not Eradicate Rational Thought.
Atheism Eradicates the Possibility of a
Higher Intelligence in the Universe.
If You Believe that Man is The Highest
Intelligent Lifeform in the Universe.
You are Arrogant an Highly Uninformed.
In just the Milky Way.
Earth is but a grain of sand on a Large Beach.
An Humans are an Insignificant Microbe on that grain of Sand.
An You believe that the Universe came about by Accident ?
an I believe it’s Part of a Grand Design
an You have the Nerve to Call Christians Crazy.
Have a Nice Day an GOD Bless
Report Post »MRMANN
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:34pm@CONSERVVATIVECANUCKLEHEAD
Report Post »Certainly not.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 2:55pmFLIPPER
You rant against a bunch of stuff I never wrote. (Why do theists often do that?)
Atheism does not eradicate the possibility of “a Higher Intelligence in the Universe”.
Atheism simply maintains there is no evidence that God exists. Who knows? This might change.
Atheism does not maintain that “Man is The Highest Intelligent Lifeform in the Universe”.
Atheism simply maintains there is no evidence that God exists.
Just in case you still haven’t got the point yet, Atheism simply maintains there is no evidence that God exists.
If nothing else, perhaps you could let that bit of knowledge enter your mind today.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 8, 2012 at 9:18pmYo Conversative,
I really had to fight with myself to not just call you knucklehead you speak of eradicating delusional thinking and apply it to christians …. it has been tried by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others. These people were atheists. I think you pegged the tail on the wrong donkey. They did not succeed because of God and they never will, because of God. It is not because the christian disease cannot be stamped out, and you speak of rational thinking ….. (*-*)
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 1:30amConservativeCanucklehead,
Report Post »The definition of atheism is someone who maintains that God does not exist. An atheist believes that God does not exist. What you are describing closer resembles agnosticism.
binge_thinker
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 11:55amScience and the scientist funded or created by agenda have recently suffered great credibility gaps with due cause. Science has become as corrupt as government.
I don’t even need to respond personally, I’ll let a few committed neo-Darwinists and atheists speak.
Michael Ruse: “Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit in this one complaint. . . the literalists [i.e., creationists] are absolutely
right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.”
Stephen Jay Gould: “The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. . .
. [T]o preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.”
Richard Lewontin: “..when we study the remote past, before the origin of the actual species **** sapiens, we are faced with a fragmentary and disconnected fossil record. Despite the excited and optimistic claims that have been made by some
Report Post »paleontologists, no fossil hominid species can be established as our direct ancestor.”
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 1:28pmKSTRET
I really don’t know any Atheists who insist that God does not, cannot exist. They always allow for the most remote possibility that He/She/It simply remains as yet undetectable. I assume this is because they understand that the obvious lack of evidence for God’s existence does not constitute absolute proof of his non-existence.
Remember Bertrand Russell’s hypothetical teapot-orbiting-the-sun? The fact that I cannot detect evidence of the teapot is not exactly proof that the teapot does not exist. Practically speaking however, the total lack of evidence for the teapot does cause me to dismiss the teapot theory and live my life as if the teapot does not exist. After all, given the total lack of evidence, why would I live as if the teapot were real?
Ditto the God theory. I do not (cannot) believe God exists because there is just no evidence. Might this change? It’s possible, but …
How ’bout we ask other Atheists here on the Blaze what they think?
Report Post »Pontiac
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 2:38pmNo where in the definition of atheism does it demand the extermination of believers, command you to be communist, or to do evil. To my knowledge no one has been killed in the name of atheism. However many have been killed in the name of god(s). God, as defined by christians, has demanded and participated in the extermination of many.
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”-Samuel 15:3
“I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.” -Genesis 6:17
You can make excuses but none of them will change the fact that “your god” is on record as a murderer and as an accessory to murder. Whether god exist or not matters not to me, whether or not people murder in the name of anything does matter to me. Real or not, your bronze age fairy tale version of god is not and will NEVER be worthy of my worship.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Steven Weinberg
Lastly, notice how christians point to communist dictators as examples of atheism, but they never point to Ayn Rand, because it would not suit them to do so.
http://tinyurl.com/2dgnqn
Last 60 characters usually ge
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 3:02pmYo Conservative:
You are not so rational in you’re own thinking as you wold have yourself believe.
You pointed out a “ principle” I said that you need to apply that same principle to evolution … what you apply to others you do not apply to yourself … this is most irrational, I believe you used the word: delusional
No, I do believe that almost all if not ALL atheists believe in evolution … they certainly don’t believe in creation.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 3:16pmYo Pontiac:
Report Post »What was the belief of Stalin?
and please press charges against God and take Him to court.
and I have never personally said you need to worship God ..I have always freely admitted that it is you’re choice .. my hope is that you would see God for who He is … because you are not even close
as far as Ayn Rand, don’t know much about her, but from what I do know she does not sound like a true christian, and I’m not even sure why you mention her?
Oh, a least you’re responce was somewhat respectable this time.. I appreciate that.
Pontiac
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 4:48pm@4truth2all
Ever wonder why I usually ignore you? Let us explore why I’ll go back to ignoring you.
[What was the belief of Stalin?]
Bolshevism. Seriously, are you still trying to tie atheism to wrongful acts when its only act is non-belief? Belief in god does not make you a saint. If it did prisons would be 100% atheist, not less than 1%. No, people do bad things because they are generally stupid or irrational, not because they believe, disbelieve, fear, or love god. If it takes belief to keep you from harming someone, then you have issues.
[press charges against God and take Him to court.]
That’s a new one. Maybe you missed the part “as defined by christians” was not an admission to a god. A god that would also be labeled as a pedophile for impregnating a 12-13ish year old girl in an arranged marriage to a 36 or so year old man. Yeah… Different times…
[I have always freely admitted that it is you’re choice]
“YOUR” choice. Not “you are choice”… It’s funny Christians claim “choice” but espouse internal damnation when you don’t goosestep to “their choice”.
[but from what I do know she does not sound like a true christian]
Report Post »She never was christian let alone a theist you dope. She is however a major underpinning in rational conservatism. Being able to argue reason with non believers is more powerful than using god as reason or polluting reason with god.
4truth2all
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 9:24pmYo Pontiac:
I have never considered, pondered, of wondered why you ignore me, in fact I would have said that you do indeed respond. If you wish to ignore me go ahead. I know my intellect is not up to your level ( did I spell you’re correct?).
You call me a dope because I freely admit I don’t know much about Ayn Rand… I should have figured you could not be civil for long. I must be a dope for hoping you could, so maybe you’re right.
Actually scripture does say that God does see those whom are His as saints, which has nothing to do with not doing wrong/sinful things. I agree with you that we ALL do wrong things … thus the reason for Jesus. People do bad things because it is our nature to do so. Again the reason for Jesus … to rescue us from those bad things …Good day
Yes Pontiac … to deny the help of God leaves you on your own …if you want to walk like a goose go ahead … might look a little weird….
And I do believe Stalin was an atheist, and he attempted to remove christians from Russia (stamp out Christ) … that’s a whole lot more then just personal non-belief … Good day
Report Post »Pontiac
Posted on June 9, 2012 at 10:42pm[I agree with you that we ALL do wrong things … thus the reason for Jesus.]
Accustom people to believe that wrongs can be forgiven and you will have wrong doing in abundance.
[to deny the help of God leaves you on your own]
If you lack self esteem then maybe a vivid imagination will help you. I need no such thing and even if I did it wouldn’t be some kooky mythology conceived in the bronze age.
[And I do believe Stalin was an atheist, and he attempted to remove christians from Russia (stamp out Christ)]
Report Post »Of course he wanted to stamp out christianity. He wanted to monopolize power, not share it with a church and its clergy. Again, nothing to do with him being an atheist but everything to do with him being power mongering *****, which history shows, extends to many religions including christianity.
KStret
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 3:43amConservativeCanucklehead,
“I really don’t know any Atheists who insist that God does not, cannot exist. They always allow for the most remote possibility that He/She/It simply remains as yet undetectable.”
You are conflating agnosticism with Atheism and if you think that there is a small remote possibility that God might exist, that is a strong statement of disbelief.
“Remember Bertrand Russell’s hypothetical teapot-orbiting-the-sun?”
Russell started referring to himself as an agnostic because he realized that atheism is a indefensible position.
“The fact that I cannot detect evidence of the teapot is not exactly proof that the teapot does not exist.”
Repeating the lack of evidence mantra doesn’t work. It is a logical fallacy.
Also, there is good evidence that there isn’t a tea pot orbiting the sun.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 8:48amYo Pontiac:
I don‘t know what world you’re livin in, we are doing plenty fine doing evils now, in fact scripture say’s it will get worse … guess what! It also say’s that we do not go on sinning because of grace, ” heaven forbid.”, so your logic is backwards and not according to the spirit of the bible.
What you call self-esteem, I (scripture) would call pride … the opposite of what God calls us to be. ( which is why that teaching is SO destructive)
I put my confidence in God, but can still be confident of my God given abilities/skills and not become some weak kneed form of mush. God does give us a vivid imagination to use for good.
I will also assume that you do know that the person of Jesus is not a myth …. this is historical fact …Zeus is a myth .. I do hope you understand the difference.
Sorry Pontiac, but at the end of the day Stalin did what he did because of his athestic belief.
Report Post »I do agree with you about those that would ATTEMPT to use God for their own personal gain … you will not find these persons names on the welcome list at the gate. You should also be aware that Jesus never spoke well of the Pharasies (church leaders), in fact He stood in direct opposition to them … why? Because they sought to control the people. Here’s the thing about that … you look at and condemn christianity because of “the christians”, but these people that you see are not “christians’ at all ! I believe that is called .. the bait and switch
4truth2all
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 8:56amFacts also concerning Stalin … he murdered regular folk that had no attachment to leadership by the millions because of their christian beliefs. …. why can’t you just admit that …. does your house crumble if you do? …Good Day
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 1:34pmConservativeCanucklehead
“I agree with him that it will be impossible to eradicate religion. You can’t eradicate any form of delusional thinking.”
How is sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the atheist canard there isn’t any evidence, rational?
If there isn’t any evidence of something, a lack of evidence should lead you to neutrality rather than disbelief. In some cases a lack of evidence would lead you to conclude that a proposition is false. If I told you there was a giant elephant in the room and you didn’t see it, obviously the lack of evidence would mean that the proposition there is an elephant in the room is false.
If you want to equate a lack of evidence of God‘s existence to a proposition that there is a physical elephant in the room but you can’t see it, you need to make that case. Sitting back and repeating that there isn’t any evidence is a logical fallacy.
The next step is for you to make the fictitious monster straw-man argument. After bantering back and forth, this ends with you robing all of God’s properties and attributes and giving them to a fictitious monster. The end result of the fictitious monster straw-man argument is simply renaming God.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 3:36pm4TRUTH2ALL
“You are not so rational in you’re own thinking as you wold have yourself believe.”
+ How do you know how rational I believe myself to be? I certainly don’t think I am PERFECTLY rational.
“You pointed out a “ principle” I said that you need to apply that same principle to evolution …”
I could apply the same principle to evolution, but I certainly don’t “need” to. As I pointed out previously, I wasn’t advocating evolution. I’m still not. (Seems odd that you want to steer the debate away like that.)
“No, I do believe that almost all if not ALL atheists believe in evolution … they certainly don’t believe in creation.”
Report Post »+ Are those the only two options? Must one believe in one or the other? Must one “believe” in ANY explanation or theory of origins?
+As I’ve noted elsewhere, I suspect it’s true that most Atheists “believe” in evolution but their understanding of it is generally as fuzzy as most Theists’ understanding of it. I suspect many Atheists believe evolution simply because they are aware that there is a consensus of scientific opinion about the validity of evolution. And that’s all. Rather like the way many people believe in man-made global warming simply because there seems to exist (at least there used to exist) a consensus of scientific opinion on the matter. But, as you know, truth is not determined by consensus. Another reason might be that, like you, many Atheists wrongly suppose that one must
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 3:42pm… Another reason might be that, like you, many Atheists wrongly suppose that one must believe at least one of these explanations of our origins.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 4:50pmKSTRET
“You are conflating agnosticism with Atheism and if you think that there is a small remote possibility that God might exist, that is a strong statement of disbelief.”
+ Again, I really don’t know any Atheists who insist that God does not, cannot exist. Those with whom I have spoken about Atheism are generally very rational. While they have find no evidence of “God”, they are logical enough to accept that they cannot search out the infiniteness of space or the vastness of unseen realms. Thus the possibility of God remains. As I said, the lack of evidence for God’s existence does not constitute absolute proof of his non-existence. So I do not “believe” in God. Or the Loch Ness Monster. Or Ganesha. My “belief” (or lack thereof) will likely change if the evidence changes.
“Russell started referring to himself as an agnostic because he realized that atheism is a indefensible position.”
Report Post »+ The term Atheist seems to fit just fine to me. I believe the term literally means “no god” or “without god”. And practically speaking, the term is principally intended to distinguish those who do not believe in a deity (or deities) from those who do. In any case, I don’t see how the difference in terminology results in a meaningful distinction for the purposes of challenging my essential point: that I do not believe in God because I find no evidence of God (or Gods).
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 10, 2012 at 5:05pmKSTRET
“Repeating the lack of evidence mantra doesn’t work. It is a logical fallacy.”
+ Huh? Why? I don‘t believe in God because there’s no evidence for God. Are you saying that I should believe without evidence? Or that it would be somehow reasonable, rational, logical to believe without evidence?
“Also, there is good evidence that there isn’t a tea pot orbiting the sun.”
Report Post »+ Hey, I’m with you. I don’t believe in the teapot either. But I cannot prove conclusively that the teapot does not exist. But this goes the same for deities too … yours too, not just the kooky ones that you’re already Atheistic about.
4truth2all
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 8:07amYo Consercative:
In the event you check back, as this story is off the main page.
You were calling others irrational and delusional in their thinking … that tells me that you believe yours to not be such … I was not attacking you PERSONALLY , if you thought so, my apologies. I am only using your words to correct what I believe to be incorrect or at the least incosistant.
I realize that I brought evolution into the equation – “principle” … and the reason was simple. If you/ one is going to make a statement that the “rules” have to be applied equally. Your responce to that was … “ I could apply the same ”principle” to evolution, but I certainly don’t “need” to.”
In all due respect to be honest and fair, YES YOU DO. Do you always just close your eyes and cover your ears like that ??? I was stearing the “debate’ if you wish to use that word to the mirror (your own words), which was my reason for the rationality of your comments.
I do not know of any other beliefs other that God/creator or evolution concerning humanity, except for one … we being a race of aliens put here by “others” and that George Bush was a reptilian, but 99% of the population believe in the first two. If there is another please fill me in …Good Day
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 5:05pm4TRUTH2ALL
Report Post »Thanks for the comeback.
I certainly do endeavour to be rational, and I did not take your comment as a personal attack (thanks for offering an apology:-).
It still seems plain to me that — in the context of discussing my central point — I do not need to apply the principle to evolution, or anything else. Evolution is irrelevant to that point. I am not advocating evolution.
In a separate conversation about the relative merits of evolution (or even in my own personal consideration of the theory) it could be sensible to apply the same principle. But why would I need to apply that, or any, principle to evolution (or anything else) in THIS discussion?
And I‘m certainly not ’closing my eyes‘ or ’covering my ears’. I am keeping my ears and ears on the point: ie that my lack of belief in Yahweh, Zeus, Ganesh … flows rationally from a lack of credible, compelling evidence.
Now, I’ve asked this before and you refuse to answer, but I’ll try again: When you are presented with concepts/theories/worldviews/whatevers for which you do not find any credible, compelling evidence … do you “believe” those things? (A yes or no answer would be much appreciated. Follow it with some detail, of course. if you you like.)
I’d like to comment further about the Theists inclination to drag “evolution” into these discussions … next post. Hope ur still there dude.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 11, 2012 at 5:39pm4TRUTH2ALL
Report Post »This tendency to want to bring up evolution as a means of challenging my assertion that there is no evidence for deities … I don’t get it.
I mean, let’s say that I were willing to stipulate that I “believe” devoutly in evolution as an explanation for the origin and proliferation of all life on Earth. Let’s imagine that you are able to then conclusively demonstrate to me that evolution is purely and utterly invalid, illogical bunkus. So what? My new (and presumably improved) understanding of evolutionary theory would not alter, or have any relevance to, my view that there is no evidence for a pantheon of deities or one big kahuna deity.
You do understand that a person — even an Atheist — can be correct about one thing yet incorrect about another, don’t you?
4truth2all
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 11:47amLet’s start with your last sentence … I have never been wrong, so no, I do not understand the concept.
Now that we have that straightened up … I was using evolution as an example of your “principle”; the principle being the issue, not evolution! However, evolution was/is revelant to the point/principle that I was discussing.
I have not refused answering anything, sorry if you percieved so …. your answer … “it is by grace you are saved and this through faith”. I find your question a little disingenuious. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ”. I find alot of “intellegence”, little wisdom. Repent means to turn around, to change your thinking, to not do what you were doing. Proverbs 3:5 say’s … “trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean on your own understanding”. I have do much learning and studing and would indeed believe and feel that God (of scripture) can ALMOST be proven … the reason for not saying completely, is obvious. However, as I say this He has proven Himself to me in may ways, because Proverbs continues by saying … “in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.” Jesus is a PROVEN fact of history. The big questions is, more then being born a virgin: did he indeed raise from the dead.
Report Post »My question to you is … why do you not see the bible as an accurate historical account ?… I bet your answer will indicate that you have deceived and believe lies.
4truth2all
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 12:37pmI will finish by saying this … Wisdom tells me to measure twice, cut once. To not allow deception in the door. The theories of men change, wisdom does not and gets it right the first time.
What can I say … the spirit inside me attests to the truth … if not, I would also believe in the thories of men. My faith is not blind nor does it bind me up. Many people get in accidents because they do not look down the road. Wisdom allows me to see miles ahead, and another can never understand until the Lord helps them also, and that does not happen until one puts down their pride and humbly asks God for help. The world will call you an idiot, a fool and a whole lot worse. Many places they will throw you in prison, even kill you. WHY? Does this not in of itself point to the truth of scripture? Why is Jesus name used as a curse word? Revelation say’s that the cowardly will not see the Kingdom of God. I am going upstream, not with the flow. I hope that I have answered your questions Conservativecanucklehead ,,, were you trying to us all the letters of the alphabet … cause you missed a few …Good day
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 12:44pmI had a second post ( in the middle) it did not go through. Been having some problems with this here. Most of it concerned evolution and your questions … I might post it latter gotta go now…..
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 3:34pm4TRUTH2ALL
Let me try again with a few questions I’ve asked before. Please give a simple Yes or No before elaborating. Thanks in advance.
When you are presented with concepts/theories/worldviews/whatevers for which you do not find any credible, compelling evidence … do you “believe” those things?
Re: Darwinian Evolution / Christian Creationism … Do you think a person MUST believe in one or the other?
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 3:37pm4TRUTH2ALL
One more question, IF you don’t mind.
If I were to stipulate that I “believe” devoutly in evolution as an explanation for the origin and proliferation of all life on Earth, and you were able to then conclusively demonstrate to me that evolution is pure bunk … why would that have any impact on my view that there is no evidence of a deity, or deities?
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 4:53pm4TRUTH2ALL
You wrote:
“… The world will call you an idiot, a fool and a whole lot worse. Many places they will throw you in prison, even kill you. WHY? Does this not in of itself point to the truth of scripture? Why is Jesus name used as a curse word?”
First, let me say that I am not trying to offend you. You seem to want to enjoy a reasonable exchange of views and ideas. And I certainly appreciate that. BUT … you’ve gone waaaaay off the path here brother. You must see that, don’t you?
Report Post »I mean, I accept that those statements are somehow meaningful to you, but you have to recognize that those remarks have absolutely no meaning in a rational discussion.
Again, I’m not being insulting … just asking if you can confirm that you see how meaningless those remarks are in conversation with someone who does not share your Christian/spiritual/religious disposition. I guess you simply jumped tracks, from reasoning-mode to believer-mode. No harm done. Just no point made either.
4truth2all
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 7:49pmYo Conservative:
I find your first question a little disingenuious and an attempt to entrap. I will answer this way… I put my faith in Christ, I did not need absolute proof to do so … “blessed are those who believe but have not seen”. (Jesus as He spoke to Thomas who would not believe until he touched Jesus). Since this first step, he has proven himself to me. I also have spent much time learning and believe that one can almost prove God (the bible), except for the obvious.
A person can believe whatever they want to believe.
If evolution is completely, factually disproven and you believed in it, I am not sure what other option there would be other then God creating it, but again to can put your faith in whatever you want to.
I am not offended, I am confussed that you would call factual statements irrational. I assume you are speaking to the ones you posted concerning the pursecution of christians. To kill someone for their faith would be most irrational. I do believe I did make a point … sorry you missed it. But if I “hear” you correctly when I quote scripture or am in “believer mode” I am then without reason? If so, you prove the very thing you are against because scripture say’s that …“it is foolishness to those who are perishing” …. no offfence to you. I believe I answered you questions. However, you did not answer any of mine … Play fair now….
Report Post »Sorry my middle post was missing it kind of was the guts of what I was sayin.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 8:51pm4TRUTH2ALL
You gotta be kidding?!
You refuse to plainly answer a simple, direct question with a Yes or No because you fear it’s an “attempt to entrap”.
First of all: I am not attempting to entrap.
Second: Entrap in what, for Zeus’s sake?
Third: This is just a conversation brother, so lighten up! Even if you do make a mistake(?), it’s no biggy. Yer not gonna go to hell without an electric fan or anything. Part of the idea here is to give free expression to intelligent thought, not “perfect” thought.
I hate to put it this way 4TRUTH, but does your deity really make you that uptight, that fearful of a single mis-step? Is your security in Christ so tenuous?
(I thought He came to make you free?)
Even if Jesus will beat you up for a mis-step, I won’t. So fear not. You can trust in my fair-mindedness.
By all means, ask me some simple, direct questions. Even if YOU are trying to entrap me, I will answer plainly. Guess I’m just not that worried about getting stuff wrong. Maybe cuz I can always change my mind, think a new thought. (Too bad you don’t have that same freedom ;-)
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 12, 2012 at 9:33pmYo Conservative:
I am lost at your last responce, I answered ALL your questions. I am free to make mistakes , that does not mean that I want to, further Jesus doesn’t beat me up for a mis-step such as that, don’t talk so dumb if you want to be perceived as rational.
My one simple question is… do you not take the bible as a true historical writing and why not?
What question do you not think I answered?
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 1:06amConservativeCanucklehead,
“Why? I don‘t believe in God because there’s no evidence for God. Are you saying that I should believe without evidence? Or that it would be somehow reasonable, rational, logical to believe without evidence?”
If you read what I wrote, you would have seen that a lack of evidence should keep you at a neutral position. When you say that you don‘t believe in God because there isn’t any evidence, what you are saying is a lack of evidence is evidence of God not existing.
This position requires you to back your assertion up and explain why a lack of evidence means that God doesn’t exist and what you would expect to find if God did exist. You have not done that. By blindly repeating that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence without justification, you are committing a logical fallacy.
Also, there is no evidence for atheism. Yet, you are an atheist…..
“Hey, I’m with you. I don’t believe in the teapot either. But I cannot prove conclusively that the teapot does not exist. But this goes the same for deities too … yours too, not just the kooky ones that you’re already Atheistic about.”
You totally missed my point. It’s not that there is a lack of evidence for a tea pot orbiting the sun, it’s that there is good evidence that there is no tea pot.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 1:27amConservativeCanucklehead,
“As I said, the lack of evidence for God’s existence does not constitute absolute proof of his non-existence……… that I do not believe in God because I find no evidence of God
So I do not “believe” in God.”
I never said absolute proof. You keep repeating that the lack of evidence is evidence of absence with out providing any rationale. Do you realize that is irrational and illogical?
“Or the Loch Ness Monster. Or Ganesha. My “belief” (or lack thereof) will likely change if the evidence changes.”
You are doing exactly what I predicted you would. You are lumping several subjects in together to construct a giant text book straw man argument and you are making a category error again. These are not rational arguments.
It’s not that there is a lack of evidence about the Loch Ness Monster, there is good evidence that there is no monster. You are conflating a lack of evidence with good evidence of nonexistence.
” In any case, I don’t see how the difference in terminology results in a meaningful distinction”
You don’t see a meaningful distinction between disbelieving in God and being neutral on the subject?
“for the purposes of challenging my essential point”
Your essential point has been shown to be totally illogical. Your entire case is predicated on logical fallicies. Repeating an absence of evidence is evidence of absence over and over again doesn’t change the illogical nature of your position or
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 1:39amConservativeCanucklehead,
“My “belief” (or lack thereof) will likely change if the evidence changes.”
Atheist are attempting to redefine atheism to side step having to make a case for atheism. Instead of the definition being some one who affirms that God does not exist, they are attempting to change the definition to a lack if belief in God.
If you lack a belief about something that means you have no opinion on the subject at all. You believe that God doesn’t exist. That is not lacking a belief in God.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 1:50am4TRUTH2ALL
“… don’t talk so dumb if you want to be perceived as rational.”
Two things. 1 – You REALLY gotta lighten up bro. I thot I wrote some pretty clever — funny — stuff there. Again, I can only suppose it’s religion that has got you so clenched up. 2 – I want to BE rational, I do not want to be “perceived” as rational. I do not make an idol out of what people say (or think) about me. In more casual terms, I would quote a bit of bumper-sticker philosophy: the older I get, the more the world can kiss my ass. (You are not still a slave to the good opinion of others, are you?)
“My one simple question is… do you not take the bible as a true historical writing and why not?”
Report Post »No, not in any of the ways you believe are important.
Does the Bible contain SOME historically accurate elements? Yes, I’m inclined to believe it does. But as I said, I believe prolly every thing that is important or essential to your faith is fabrication.
To fairly explain “why” I believe this would take much more typing than I can manage, but there are PLENTY of sources out there for you to consult. You won’t read them, of course. You might only read what Christian apologists have to say about them.
Face it, brother … you are not willing to change your mind on these matters. You are not free to do so. Your motivation is to defend the faith, not to learn or think your way beyond it.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 2:41amKSTRET
“… a lack of evidence should keep you at a neutral position.”
Really? Why?
I would agree that a lack of evidence COULD keep me at a neutral position, but I don’t agree it SHOULD keep me neutral.
I form opinions about things all the time, even when I have only the smallest scraps to go on. If someone says to me, “Hey, do you believe in reincarnation?”, I’d say “Nope.” If that person were then to ask me, “Why don’t you believe in reincarnation?”, I’d say “Because I haven’t seen any evidence that would cause me to believe it.”
I‘m wondering if your confusion comes from misunderstanding what I’m saying about God (and reincarnation and Nessie and Ganesh). When I say “I don’t believe in God“ that is not the same as saying ”God does not, or cannot, exist”. You understand that, don’t you?
You say that I “totally missed” your point about the teapot. I don’t think I did.
Report Post »I can accept that there may be some evidence (maybe even lots of “good” evidence) that there is no teapot in orbit around the sun. I’m just saying that is not the same as “conclusive” evidence there is no teapot orbiting the sun.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 2:57amKSTRET
“You keep repeating that the lack of evidence is evidence of absence with out providing any rationale. Do you realize that is irrational and illogical?”
Maybe this will help you. I actually BEGIN without any belief in (or concept of) God … then someone comes along and says, “Hey! Do you believe in God?”
I say, “Never heard of that. What is it?”
They explain some stuff, then ask expectantly, “Do you believe in God now?”
I say, “Nope.”
They look sad and ask, “Why not?”
I say, “You’ve given me reason, no evidence to believe.” Then I go back to enjoying my sandwich.
So what’s so irrational and illogical about that?
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 3:09amOops, I missed a word …
I say, “You’ve given me NO reason, no evidence to believe.” Then I go back to enjoying my sandwich.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 8:36amYo Conservative:
Evolution is based on assumptions (theories) and then assumptions on those assumptions. I know this because I do listen to the “other side”. So YOUR assumption about me concerning that is incorrect. In fact I just rented 3 DVD’s on double on the insect world and one called Secret Yosemite. In the one about the insect world which was 3 parts with 6 different aminals per part they constantly spoke about evolution, but NEVER gave ANY proof … not once! In the Yosemite DVD it was REALLY about evolution and global warming. I rented it because of the title thinking they would show the unseen places in this great park. I love the out doors and always get off the “beaten path”. It was total propaganda. My point is to get the antitheist viewpoint one does not have to search for it.
In your last two post you resort to personal attacks ( I can handle it) concerning my attitude and then blame it on my faith … 2 more incorrect assumptions … by the way how about this one …”don‘t consider everything a man say’s”. , and I didn’t have to do the kiss thing …follow? Quite frankly seems you’re the guy a little angry.
So you believe (maybe) some of the bible but disreguard the important stuff and then say that you do not have any time to explain ANYTHING, not even one tenny tinny part?…well OK then.
Antitheist or atheists cannot disprove God …as is the point of Kstreet … NOTHING in the bible has ever been factually disproven.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 9:22amAntitheists or atheists will not for the most part admit that they just don’t want God, so they allow themselves to be deceived choosing to side with the side of assumptions and disreguard the factual accounts of the bible. But as I said this is your /everyones choice.
And your 4th incorrect assumption, which is so predictable, is to falsely accuse (“ you shall not give false testimony against your neighbor”) … I know lighten up … and become a leaf in the wind blown about by the winds desire.
Report Post »You/ atheists do this by saying as you did that I am not interested in learning/ thinking, and also that I am not free. YEAH!!! you are finally correct in that I am defending my faith, odd that you criticize me for that; you do the same thing. Actually in defending my faith/truth, as I AM called to be an ambassador and to be honest, and in doing this, it in reality causes me to learn about ALL things. But them God did know this would be so. Proverbs 4:7 say’s —-> Wisdom is supreme: therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have get understanding.” and continues. I suggest you read it. Or do you only read what suits you? So, you could not be more wrong in what you say!
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 9:50amKSTRET
“You are lumping several subjects in together to construct a giant text book straw man argument and you are making a category error again.”
+ No, the category is Things For Which I Have Found No Evidence”. This category includes, among other things: Yahweh, Nessie, Zeus, Atlantis, and Sasquatch (though that Patterson film is a bit compelling;-)
“It’s not that there is a lack of evidence about the Loch Ness Monster, there is good evidence that there is no monster. You are conflating a lack of evidence with good evidence of nonexistence.”
Really? What is the evidence that there is no monster in Loch Ness?
“You don’t see a meaningful distinction between disbelieving in God and being neutral on the subject?”
Report Post »Actually, I do see a difference. The latter seems to be an unnatural position for me to hold. I either believe or I don’t. I‘m either in or I’m out.
How can one be “neutral”? I can’t get my head around that. In most every instance I can think of or imagine I find that I generate at least a reflexive opinion or belief. In practical terms, I find that I just don’t remain “neutral”. Maybe you can help me recognize something about which I AM neutral, cuz I can’t come up with one. Maybe just telling me some things/concepts you are neutral on would help me find one.
Pontiac
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 9:54am@ConservativeCanucklehead
Report Post »This still? Best do what I did, stop reading his post… He‘s no different than a drug addict because he’s addicted to dopamine. That’s why so many drug addicts become religious, they substitute one drug for another. You and I don’t live our lives day by day dependent on feeling some phony praise from some voice in our head. They do and they’re going to lie, evade, deny, distort, and contort everything around them and everything you say to protect that voice. Try as hard as you may Canucklehead, just remember, you’re dealing with a drug addict.
4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 10:01amI’m gonna give you something … as is provable (to a point) by my own postings as my middle post above did not go through. I had an experience once in which a number of things came together at a precise/ to the second moment. Mathamaticly impossible. I asked God why he did this .. it was not a big ground breaking event , but I understood the moment. Over the next week or so the answers came. It was to show me that there is NO coincidence, that EVERYTHING is in and under His COMPLETE control. And this to increase trust/faith …and it did just that. So when my post did not go through I was wondering about this … well. I back tracked and found it and clicked on the typing window and it then completely ereased … lost. I was confussed as to why this happened in light of what I said above. But, I put it in God’s hands and move on … don’t wanna be to uptight you know. I addressed some of the very things you said in your last responce … thing is that would have been BEFORE you said them. God did not want that … I believe he wanted you to SEE your own words and the incorrect assumptions/inconsistancies/ and self deceipt. I would say I KNOW, but for your benifit I did not.
Report Post »Finally … in being a slave to Christ I am free, you in fact are the one that limits yourself. That does not include sinful things, which enslave.
You ask me to lighten up … I am here becauce of YOUR eternal soul. Which I would care about more then you yourself
4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 10:13amYou by your own choosing you do not believe you have a spirit that is eternal. I believe you do, so I take my time ( got a whole bunch of other stuff to do ) to “talk” with you. I am convinced that God is trying to help you see the TRUTH, which is why I am 4 TRUTH … you can take what I give you and keep it or throw it away ..and one day you will see ALL the times God tried to speak to you. If you think what I have said is delusional as you say christians are … there is a verse that say’s … “don’t give your pearls to swine”. I just gave you a pearl … do you recongnize the value, or do you throw it in the mud … becomming the pig … as it always is …. your choice … Good day
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 10:35amYo Pontiac:
Report Post »You still?
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That makes as much sence as what you said.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 12:24pmKSTRET
“Atheist are attempting to redefine atheism to side step having to make a case for atheism. Instead of the definition being some one who affirms that God does not exist, they are attempting to change the definition to a lack if belief in God.”
“If you lack a belief about something that means you have no opinion on the subject at all.”
As I’ve said, I believe the term “Atheist” literally means “no god” or “without god”. And practically speaking, the term is principally intended to distinguish those who do not believe in a deity (or deities) from those who do. For some reason you don’t like that use of the term, but I certainly cannot see a flaw in the literal or practical definition.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 1:08pmHey there PONTIAC!
Yeah, I get it. But I’ve worked with drug addicts before, and while the vast majority cannot/will not be helped … occasionally there is a breakthrough. Occasionally a slave is set free. Sometimes a seed we plant in their minds may take years to germinate and sprout, but when the mind is finally free … well, it’s pretty groovy.
BTW, while yer still here … Do you think Atheists — generally speaking — simply do not believe that a deity exists, OR do they believe that a deity cannot exist? The latter does not make sense to me. You?
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 1:55pm4TRUTH2ALL
“YEAH!!! you are finally correct in that I am defending my faith, odd that you criticize me for that; you do the same thing.”
There’s a key difference though. I have my beliefs, opinions, thoughts, and ideas. I sometimes share them with others who, in turn, share theirs. I remain open to the possibility that I may be wrong, that the information available to me is incomplete, that I do not lose my identity, or my friends, or my eternal salvation … simply because I might change my mind.
BIG difference, yes?
“Actually in defending my faith/truth, as I AM called to be an ambassador and to be honest, and in doing this, it in reality causes me to learn about ALL things.”
Report Post »You learn only to reinforce your faith. Whenever you might be confronted with an argument or evidence that could challenge your religious beliefs you begin the immediate and necessary task of rationalizing away the argument’s validity. Nothing else is permitted in your mind. Again, if I am wrong tell me … which element of the Bible, which of your Christian beliefs could you ever accept contrary evidence for?
Isn‘t this essentially the same as what you’ve tried to wrongly accuse me of doing (believing in advance that a deity cannot exist)? Don’t you presently believe that a deity MUST exist, that he MUST be your particular deity, and that any evidence to the contrary MUST be somehow flawed?
4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 3:39pmYo Conservative:
Not sure I understand your point of the first paragraph. I will respond by saying this … I stick to what scripture say’s … do I learn more about it … yes … does that change my understanding … yes . Do I go against what I know to be true … no. Do I lose friends over it …no, Have I lost my identity because of this … no, quite the opposite. So, I guess your point is to indicate that I /christians are close minded and as atheists like to say … they are the free thinkers. 2+2 =4 … do I change my understanding of that to suit someone elses thought that because I will not I am not open minded?
YOU ARE WRONG >>> let me repeat >>> YOU ARE WRONG !!!
Report Post »I learn …and when I learn the TRUTH, it always reinforces my faith …let me be clear, I HATE BEING LIED TO… I HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN BEING LIED TO. I DESPISE BEING LIED TO, AND I HATE WHEN OTHERS ARE LIED TO, comprendo.
So that is now the 5th assumption about me in which you are wrong.
This is how I live in my personal life … I am BRUTALLY honest with myself, I cut myself no breaks and allow no excusses/lies to enter
When I hear a arguement that seems valid and would point to scripture as be in error I search out the matter … and as I have said not once has it ever been disproven … the “accuser” has always been incorrect … christians are not mindless/delusional idiots as you/and the world seem to want to accuse/ believe.
4truth2all
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 4:07pmYes I believe a “diety”, God exists , wisdom tells me there can only be one, truth tells me that Jesus is that one. I believe that I said this to you … I am a director of an after school teen program… and I have told them that if they find a better deal then Jesus to take it, but they better come back and tell me about it. … It has NOTHING to do with ME…. what FACTUAL evidence say’s he does not exist?
I stick to what scripture says … it defends itself without flaw …I know to much of the world that position is hated, and ridiculed … I don’t care … your said yourself about giving the opinions of others power over who one is … did you not?
Report Post »I am confident of what I know and what I have learned and choose to not be a leaf at the mercy of the wind. I am more interested in putting down deep and strong roots.
I would love to buy breakfast and have a conversation with you that is made most difficult here. I have appreciated this conversation and your; for the most part not going down the path of rude name calling and insults, I truly wish you the best and hope that when you finally settle on a solid belief it is in Christ. … I live in PA. if by chance you are in the area my word is good , and inspite of Pontiac‘s continued attitude I’d do the same for him … well maybe coffee and a donut. … easy
Pontiac
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 5:16pmEnded up replying in the wrong spot. too much scrolling…
@ConservativeCanucklehead
I am a descendant of two late 1800′s era baptist preachers on each side of my family, I was a deist in my youth, an agnostic up until about a year ago and then became an ardent atheist after reading the constant inane post of “christians” on the blaze. I can’t speak for atheist as a whole but I think god is a fanciful concept that is quickly tainted by an absurd reality. So even if god does exist in some fashion, it most certainly is not worthy of human worship. Let alone believing in some bronze age mythology made up by humans playing the longest game of “telephone” before writing anything down…
I do not believe the “judeo christian” god exist anymore than Odin, Zeus, unicorns, or leprechauns exist. But a god like being that has or had some sort of mastery over quantum mechanics…a very distant possibility that I wouldn’t rule completely out, but wouldn’t seek out to worship either.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 7:08pmConservativeCanucklehead,
“I form opinions about things all the time, even when I have only the smallest scraps to go on. If someone says to me, “Hey, do you believe in reincarnation?”, I’d say “Nope.” If that person were then to ask me, “Why don’t you believe in reincarnation?”, I’d say “Because I haven’t seen any evidence that would cause me to believe it.””
That line of thinking is illogical, irrational, and predicted on a logical fallacy. The default position is neutrality. If I don’t know about something, I should not have an opinion on the subject. If I start looking into something and there wasn’t any evidence one way or the other, that would keep me at a neutral position.
You are saying that a lack of evidence is evidence of nonexistence. Once again, if that is your rationale for disbelieving in God, you need to explain why a lack of evidence is evidence of God not existing and explain what you would expect to find if God did exist.
You haven’t done this and you are not going to to this. It is obvious that all your arguments are coming from youtube atheists and you haven’t thought about them. You can not just repeat an absence of evidence is evidence of absence and have a valid or rational argument.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 7:25pmConservativeCanucklehead,
“I‘m wondering if your confusion comes from misunderstanding what I’m saying…..”
I am not misunderstanding or confused about anything. You contradicted yourself. Saying that you don’t believe in God is the same as saying that you believe that God does not exist. By making a giant straw-man argument by lumping a bunch of fictitious monsters together you are basically saying that you believe it is next to imposable that God exists.
The confusion is coming from your misunderstanding that all you need to say is there is a lack of evidence. You apparently think that is a valid and logical argument. It’s not and you need to explain your rationale for a lack of evidence being evidence that God does not exist.
“You say that I “totally missed” your point about the teapot. I don’t think I did.
“I can accept that there may be some evidence (maybe even lots of “good” evidence) that there is no teapot in orbit around the sun. I’m just saying that is not the same as “conclusive” evidence there is no teapot orbiting the sun.”
You are conflating good evidence that X doesn’t exist with a lack of evidence. If there is a lack of evidence that is indicative that there isn’t good evidence of something not existing. There is “NO evidence” means that there cannot be Good evince of X not existing.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 7:30pmConservativeCanucklehead,
“I say, “You’ve given me reason, no evidence to believe.” Then I go back to enjoying my sandwich.”
That is demonstrably false. They gave you their reason for believing and presumably evidence as well. The person told you about God and you rejected what they said. That not the same as no reason or evidence.
“+ No, the category is Things For Which I Have Found No Evidence”. This category includes, among other things: Yahweh, Nessie, Zeus, Atlantis, and Sasquatch (though that Patterson film is a bit compelling;-)”
Lumping different things together to make a straw-man argument commits two logical fallacies. A straw-man and a category error. Does all the different fictions monsters and subjects you lumped together have the same attributes and properties? No!
You can’t compare the Loch Ness monster to God. They have different attributes and properties. That is a category error. To lump God in with something that no one believes in is a text book straw-man argument.
What you are really saying with the straw-man monster analogy is that the concept of God is so ridiculous to you that you totally dismiss it right off the bat.
“Really? What is the evidence that there is no monster in Loch Ness?”
The famous picture of the monster that gave it world wide recognition was a fake. There have been numerous expeditions that used sonar to locate the monster and they never found anything to indicate that a group of giant Plesiosa
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 7:32pm“How can one be “neutral”? ”
I am neutral about the existence of Bigfoot. Do I believe there is an actual possibility that bigfoot could exist? Yes. Do I believe it is possible that they don’t exist? Yes.
What you seem to be saying is that the default position should be disbelief. In the event of a lack of evidence you should disbelieve. That is fallacious reasoning that you would not apply to any other subject.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 7:35pmLast post should have read:
The famous picture of the monster that gave it world wide recognition was a fake. There have been numerous expeditions that used sonar to locate the monster and they never found anything to indicate that a group of giant Plesiosaurs live.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 13, 2012 at 8:26pmBelieving in God and being Christian is the equivalent of being a drug addict? Really? What a reasonable and rational think to say? That is the apotheosis of the atheist idea of free thinking.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 14, 2012 at 9:35amYo Kstret:
Report Post »Good to talk to you …amazing, is the comment about the druggie isn’t it! Don’t know if you picked up on this or not … he has walked further away from God and he does the blame game and points the finger at christians. So, in actuality since we are called to be ambassadors of Christ, he in fact, is attempting to blame God for his own disbelief! I go partly down that road in that we do do a poor job of it sometime. Here’s the other thing … he speaks of his percieved manner of what christians do, as he say’s what he says ???? I try to stick a mirror in front of them but pride just blocks it. At any rate, keep up the effort … peace
KStret
Posted on June 14, 2012 at 8:27pm4truth,
Comparing Christians to drug addicts is such a pitiful analogy that is devoid of logic or reason. This is ironic seeing that he claims that logic and reason is the template for his world view. An ad hominem attack is the antithesis being logical.
On top of that, his arguments were horrible and easily disproved. He made the telephone analogy as his rationale for not believing in Christianity, which is a fallacious argument and shows that he didn’t do his homework on the subject.
He plays the Christian body count game but attempts to absolve atheism of his own chain of logic.With Stalin and communism he is using intellectual gymnastics to get around his own logic chain being applied to atheism.
Jesus and the apostles were nonviolent. They were so nonviolent they wouldn’t even defend them selves from people who wanted to kill them. When a group of people use Jesus to justify various atrocities, they are not following the teachings of Jesus. Yet, because they say they are doing it in the name of Jesus, it is fair to add it to the Christian body count.
To get around the 100 million murders committed by communists, they argue that because the communists were not killing in the name of atheism, they should not be added to an atheist body count. They often times will add that communism is a radical political ideology that is really closer to a religion.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on June 14, 2012 at 8:32pmHowever, look at what the communists said about religion. They share the radical youtube atheist belief that religion is a dark force or cancer on the face of the earth that needs to be eradicated. From that template, the Communists attempted to obliterate religion.
To say that atrocities done in the name of Jesus should be added to the religious body count tally because they cited the name of Jesus is valid but atheists should be absolved of the atrocities perpetrated by the communists is not valid because they didn’t say that they are doing the horrific action in the name of atheism, is a straw-man argument.
“I go partly down that road in that we do do a poor job of it sometime. Here’s the other thing … he speaks of his percieved manner of what christians do, ”
One of the mistakes Christians have made is to ignore apologetics and the second is to withdraw from the culture. When a child is brought up in a Christian home and they go off to college and get hit with a barrage of atheist arguments they are woefully unprepared.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 8:20amKSTRET
“That is demonstrably false. They gave you their reason for believing and presumably evidence as well. The person told you about God and you rejected what they said. That not the same as no reason or evidence.”
+ Oh boy. So when I say that I have found, or not been given, any reason or evidence to believe in God do I REALLY have to explain that I have been given no reason or evidence that is satisfactory to me? Seriously? Come on!
YOU have been given reasons to NOT believe and have rejected them. It is not the case that you have not been give “no reason” or “no evidence”, but rather that you’ve only been given evidence that you do not find persuasive, compelling, satisfactory.
Whether an Atheist or a Theist, THAT is what we do: we choose, we decide. Yeah! It’s just like Geoerge Dub-yah said … we’re the deciders.
BTW, you’ve never heard or read about any Sociologists, Philosophers, Journalists, Psychologists, or Psychiatrists likening Religious Faith/Practices to delusional behaviour, psychosis, or addiction? Really? You gotta expand your Google searches brother.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 8:41amKSTRET
“Lumping different things together to make a straw-man argument commits two logical fallacies. A straw-man and a category error. Does all the different fictions monsters and subjects you lumped together have the same attributes and properties? No!”
+ Again I’ve gotta ask … Seriously?
They don‘t need to have the same attributes or properties because I’m not comparing their attributes or properties. I was really clear, they are all Things For Which I Have Found No (Persuasive/Satisfactory!) Evidence. Regardless of attributes or properties. Whether on this planet or elsewhere. In realms physical or Spiritual.
They are all in the category of things/concepts/entities/STUFF I‘ve heard of but don’t believe in. Get it?
“You can’t compare the Loch Ness monster to God. They have different attributes and properties. That is a category error.”
+ See above.
“To lump God in with something that no one believes in is a text book straw-man argument.”
Report Post »+ Man oh man oh man! Not that it necessarily matters, but of course some people believe in Nessie! And Bigfoot. And The Illuminati. And Scientology. And the persisting blood line of Jesus and Mary Magdeline (they got married and had babies ya know). And shape-shifting lizard-people. And even … Moronism!
You’re not really unaware of this, are you?
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 8:44amDid I write “Moronisim” above?
I meant “Mormonism”.
Oh well, poe-tay-toe / poe-tah-toe.
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 8:47am“What you are really saying with the straw-man monster analogy is that the concept of God is so ridiculous to you that you totally dismiss it right off the bat.”
Report Post »+ Let me see … how shall I put this so you can understand? How bout this: No.
Capiche?
4truth2all
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 11:17amYo Kstret:
Thanks for the reply … you get my vote of non-delusional approval.
Yeah the Stalin thing was quite a contortion, but if you noticed the door was not completely closed.
I am one of those who believe that one of the problems is because of our lack of faith in keeping to the teachings in Genesis, and learning the science behind it … this is where the enemy has focused his attacks. Creation, sin, death all those issues atheists try to use for there faith/belief are explained there …that is the foundation …remove that, and the building crumbles.
Report Post »I understand your point of apologetics … I am presently reading a book of Ravi Zacharias: I would find this line of conversing as the wisdom God calls us to. Interesting that the book we abide to calls us to get wisdom, understanding, knowledge and to have discernment, all the while the atheists attempt to call us dumb, delusional, morons; like their saying it makes it true (laughing).
One of the reasons I have always held questions on homeschooling … I again understand the thinking behind it. but it also seperates us out from society in a way I am not sure God would have us do. Our childern should be strong enough in faith and courage to call out the teachers. I hate to say it, but I find it true, in that it is WE how have not been doing what we should be doing … peace
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 1:22pmKSTRET
Report Post »“I am neutral about the existence of Bigfoot. Do I believe there is an actual possibility that bigfoot could exist? Yes. Do I believe it is possible that they don’t exist? Yes.”
+ Like you, I believe there is a possibility Bigfoot (and God, and Lizard-People, and Dark Matter, etc) exists. But that doesn’t stop me from forming an opinion, from holding a present belief about these things, even though I might own the slightest knowledge of the evidence which others use to support their existence. In fact, I find the formation of a position/belief/opinion is a reflexive response. BUT, like 7-11, my mind is always open.
Actually, that would seem to be a key difference between us. At a certain point in your life you became convinced of certain theistic/religious beliefs. Now your mind is closed to even the possibility that any new evidence could ever be discovered to legitimately disprove those beliefs.
Recently there was speculation among Physicists –based on “apparent” results from research at the huge collider in Geneva — that Relativity might be disproved. Experts naturally reacted with skepticism. After all, a whole lot (everything?) in modern Physics has been built on the “belief”, if you will, in Relativity. But as surprising, upending, revolutionary as such a discovery would be … those who have long ‘preached’ Relativity are prepared for the possibility. Their minds are open. Yours is not.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 2:13pm4TRUTH / KSTRET
Report Post »Have you really never heard or read about any Sociologists, Philosophers, Journalists, Psychologists, or Psychiatrists likening Religious Faith/Practices to delusional behaviour, psychosis, or addiction? Really? You gotta expand your Google searches brother.
4truth2all
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 5:50pmYo Conservative:
Not interested in the breakfast I see. but you can still insult.(“good” for you) At the end of the day it is usually where your beliefs leave you. Google says … and you trust it, God say’s and you call it delusions … that would make you deceived (according to scripture). So you would be called deceived and you call me/Kstret delusional …ask me if I care what those people think …. go ahead ask me!
I offer my hand to you in friendship and I got no responce … usually a thank you, no thank you is in order… instead you attempt to insult and you think you hold the higher ground ?
You seem to like the word delusion when applied to christians try this one …
Report Post »“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness”. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)
You can do as Pontiac/atheists do and blame God (cause He’s so mean) if you misread those verses. However, if read properly it’s not His fault. If you need help understanding let me know …Good day, I do believe I’m outta here.
4truth2all
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 8:12pmWanted to add something …
Report Post »Jesus died for the “drug addicts” = sinners. I could say a bunch of things here that should shame you, I suspect it would have no effect.
Heaven will be full of those drug addicts/sinners
Hell will be full of “good” people … do you think you’re good?
If so you believe the lie
Now, you guys like to say that God is trying to be controling by using this language,
all the while the intent is to help and bring freedom … and YOU speak of delusions.
Your own words and actions prove the truth of scripture
yet your pride blinds you to it
another truth of scripture.
you don’t want it
you got it
so be it.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 11:20pm4TRUTH
“Google says … and you trust it”
Of course I trust Google … to deliver search results on a query like ‘religion is a delusion’, or ‘religious faith is a mental illness’. So do a few billion other people. Don’t you?
And who said I’m not interested in the breakfast offer?
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 15, 2012 at 11:23pm4TRUTH
Report Post »What did I write that you feel was intended as an insult?
4truth2all
Posted on June 16, 2012 at 7:43amYo Conservative:
Breakfast – you made no responce concerning it. If you were not interested, that’s fine. Just cause I offer you don’t have to accept , I’m not offended by that.
My first responce to you was due to the delusional thinking comment and the eradication of people that think this way.
So I’ll answer your question with this … What was your purpose of once again going back to the garbage dump. And as far as being personally offended not so much, other reasons much. I have a hatred for dumb comments (sorry). “Dumb”/ uninformed people are fine.
As far as google …it’s not google …it’s what you find on google, like the sites you refer to. So I guess my play on words was not totally correct …see, when I am wrong I admit it … no problem.
I need to work a 15 hr day …I will respond one more time on Sunday with something you may find interesting, or maybe I’m just delusional … think what you will … and as I previously said I have appreciated the “conversation”, if we were talking personally I would not have let that get past me either … easy
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 16, 2012 at 2:18pm4TRUTH2ALL
“My first responce to you was due to the delusional thinking comment and the eradication of people that think this way.”
+ Eradication of people that think your way? What are you talking about?!
“What was your purpose of once again going back to the garbage dump?”
Report Post »+ What did I write that constitutes going back to the garbage dump? Pointing out the fact that many people (even many Psychologists, Psychiatrists) believe religious faith is delusional thinking? That’s just a fact. And based on a reasonable review of the evidence they present — as well as the accepted definition of delusional thinking — their thinking seems credible to me too.
I certainly didn’t say you were sub-human or that you should be “eradicated” (where the heck did you come up with that?!) so I do not see how this can be called “going back to the garbage dump”.
Maybe a definition wil help …
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 16, 2012 at 2:38pmDELUSIONAL DISORDER (Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders)
Delusional disorder is characterized by the presence of recurrent, persistent non-bizarre delusions.
Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to credible forms of proof that contradict the belief.
Non-bizarre delusions are considered to be plausible; that is, there is a possibility that what the person believes to be true could actually occur a small proportion of the time.
Generally, in delusional disorder, these mistaken beliefs are organized into a consistent world-view that is logical other than being based on an highly improbable foundation.
With respect to religious beliefs, sentence 2 above is actually not strong enough. Religious people are not merely “highly resistant” to proof their belief is flawed or false; they absolutely, resolutely refuse to accept even the possibility that their faith could ever be proven false. In fact, their identity is so inextricably linked to their delusion that they boast in the resoluteness of their faith. It is unshakeable, they proudly declare. (Of course, this too is consistant with the nature and structure of their highly organized delusion.)
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 2:04pmYo Conservative:
Report Post »You want to speak of delusional behavior … now you can take some of your own medicine …………
This group of people would probably be considered an intelligent group. I would also believe that one would find the professions you speak of as not the kind of people reading their bibles before nighty night. As I said before … “fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.“ That would mean this group of people though ”intelligent” lack the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18 …for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
1 Corinthians 1:19 … “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
1 Corinthians 1:20 …Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the PHILOSOPHER of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him.
Thus the ones who are actually delusional are the ones doing the name calling whom you seem to stand in agreement with who profess learning and wisdom.
Another one of the things I mentioned in my lost 2nd post was repentence. I believe the first words recorded by Jesus in His ministry was to repent; which means to change your thinking to turn around, to not do as you were doing. In other words to not do as the world does, or believe as the world believes, or think as the world thinks. This means that you indeed will be going against the flow and seem odd.
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 2:23pmThe fool says in his heart, “I will quote scripture to prove a point”.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 2:49pmAnd to go against the flow takes courage and strength; which is why it states in Revelation near the end of the bible that the cowardly will not see the kingdom of heaven. Again. what the world calls weak,God call meak. Repentence is NEEDED to understand the truth, pride refuses repentence, pride prevents understanding of truth all the while thinking it has it! That sir is delusional.
You ask for proof of God …Romans 1:19 … since what may be known about God is plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – His eternal power and devine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.
Every time you walk outside, look at the stars, feel the rain, hear a bird, taste a peach, talk to another person Gd is smacking you across the face telling you of His existence.
I was going to go into some detail here … I suspect I waste my breath. ( I do not mean that as an insult).
Report Post »You say we are delusional/ irrational/unlearned – science, and yet the very book we are unwilling to move from which you call delusional tells us to get WISDOM, to get UNDERSTANDING, to get KNOWLEDGE .. to search for the truth and be discerning. If you don’t want people to know, to keep them in the dark and to be able to control them , that SIR is NOT the advice you give… that flies in the face of everything athesits say about christians.
4truth2all
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 3:02pmTHANK YOU for your reply … you guys always do the same… get angry, and out come the insults when truth bites at you. I was going to say some more but I am done. You just did the VERY thing scripture says you would/will do. I would have at one time said that I wasted my time here, but the truth is I will get rewarded for my attempt to speak with you, you will also get rewarded for your refusal of it.
Go back to your sandwich … and save some for bigfoot …
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 3:48pmLOOK at the DOUBLE STANDARD of “conservative”
Report Post »he can quote phychologists and phychiatrists and that’s Ok
I quote scripture (men also) and I’m the fool …
ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 4:07pm4TRUTH
I like the Bigfoot quip. You know, cuz it’s funny.
I’m just trying to liberate your mind brother. In fact, you may be closer to freedom than you think.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 4:30pmYo Conservative:
Never been against you for a moment. Here’s the thing man … I already did the stomping where you are. I done left it a long time ago. So the reality of it is I’ve been where you are, but you ain’t never been where I am. I know what it looks like from where you lookin, but you got no idea of my view , I keep trying to say … yo, here’s another thing … bet my breakfast is better then that sandwich, and bigfoot … he ain’t gettin none . I am seriously outta here … keep it light, but don’t be a leaf
Report Post »ConservativeCanucklehead
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 6:34pm4TRUTH
Report Post »Why would you assume that I ain’t never been where you are? Why are you so sure that I’ve got no idea of your view?
Maybe as a young man I experienced the salvation of Christ, was born from above, clothed in the righteousness of the Almighty by faith in the sacrificial death and glorious resurrection of the only begotten of God.
Maybe I was once given the Spirit by which we enter boldly into the throne room of grace, became a joint heir with Christ.
Maybe I went to Theological College and led home Bible-study groups and evangelized the lost and was compelled to preach the Gospel (woe to me if I did not preach the Gospel).
What if …
What if it were all true?
Would you be able to accept that? Or would you instantly tell yourself (and me) that mine had been a false conversion, that I had been deceived, that my Saviour had been a counterfeit Christ?
Or maybe it was a powerful … delusion.
Yes, maybe mine was — and yours is — a powerful delusion.
Is it possible brother?
4truth2all
Posted on June 17, 2012 at 8:57pmThat’d be a curve ball , but that’s otay … always was a good hitter. People come and go all the time …like I said though …outta here.
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