California City Fines Couple for Holding Bible Study in Their Home
- Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:36am by
Madeleine Morgenstern
- Print »
- Email »
Photo via Flickr user Erwin Vogelaar
A southern California couple has been fined $300 dollars for holding Christian Bible study sessions in their home, and could face another $500 for each additional gathering.
City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.
The Fromms appealed their citations but were denied and warned future sessions would carry heftier penalties. A statement from the Pacific Justice Institute, which is defending the couple in a lawsuit against the city, said Chuck Fromm was also told regular gatherings of three or more people require a conditional use permit, which can be costly and difficult to obtain.
“How dare they tell us we can’t have whatever we want in our home,” Stephanie Fromm told the Capistrano Dispatch. “We want to be able to use our home. We’ve paid a lot and invested a lot in our home and backyard … I should be able to be hospitable in my home.”
According to the Dispatch, the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren’t a problem.
“There’s no singing or music,” Stephanie said. “It’s meditative.”
The Dispatch reported a code-enforcement officer gave the Fromms a verbal warning about the meetings in May, then returned to issue citations in June and July. According to the paper, the city’s code-enforcement department is reactive, meaning they only respond to complaints.
Stephanie said most of their neighbors are very supportive, although she said one has voiced concerns in the past.
“We don’t like lawsuits, but we have to stand up for what’s right. It’s not just a personal issue,” she said. “Can you imagine anybody in any neighborhood, that one person can call and make it a living hell for someone else? That’s wrong … and it’s just sad.”
San Juan Capistrano’s religious roots run deep — the city is best known for a historic Catholic mission built in the 1700s.
“Imposing a heavy-handed permit requirement on a home Bible study is outrageous,” said Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific Justice Institute. “An informal gathering in a home cannot be treated with suspicion by the government, or worse than any other gathering of friends, just because it is religious.”
“We cannot allow this to happen in America, and we will fight as long and as hard as it takes to restore this group’s religious freedom.”
(h/t Gateway Pundit)
Popular Stories
Does Misstated Marathon Claim Prove Paul Ryan Is Dishonest? (POLL) 667 Comments
‘Jumah at the DNC’ Speaker: ‘Muslims Visited America Prior to Columbus’ & ‘It Was a Muslim’ Who Guided Him to the ‘New World’ 525 Comments
Paper Details Obama Admin’s Alleged Secret Note Sent to Iran: If Israel Attacks, We Won’t Get Involved 375 Comments
Obama: RNC Like Watching ‘Black-and-White TV’ Because Romney ‘Did Not Offer a Single New Idea’ 364 Comments
Roseanne Barr: Most Billionaires ‘Violent Pedophiles’ & ‘Heartless’ Cocaine Addicts 326 Comments
Faith
This Is the Creationists‘ Response to Scientist Bill Nye’s Viral Pro-Evolution Video Claiming They Harm Children 247 Comments- Pakistani Muslim Cleric Accused of Framing Disabled Christian Girl in Koran-Burning Case Read More
- ‘Made Up Religion’: TV Historian Enrages Muslims, Receives Threats After Producing UK Documentary Questioning Islam’s Beginnings 255 Comments
Meet the Controversial German Imam Accused of Brutally Beating His Wife & Pushing Sharia Law Read More
‘Self-Proclaimed Messiah’ & Unification Church Leader the Rev. Sun Myung Moon Has Died — Here’s His Life Story Read More
Business
- President Obama Issues Major ‘Green Energy’ Executive Order Read More
- Germany’s Upcoming Court Ruling Will be Huge for the EU Read More
Ford Looks to Beat Toyota for Best-Selling Car in 2012 With This Model 147 Comments
Bernanke & QE3: Here’s What You Need to Know Read More- ‘Extortion’: Why Did the Labor Department ‘Drop the Hammer’ on Oregon Farmers? 300 Comments
Technology
- This Is the Creationists‘ Response to Scientist Bill Nye’s Viral Pro-Evolution Video Claiming They Harm Children 247 Comments
‘TaserDrone’: Hackers Weaponize Quadcopter With Actual ‘Shocking’ Technology Read More
Ever Heard of the Wild ‘Burning Man’ Festival in the Middle of the Nev. Desert? Here’s Your Primer Read More
Stanford Develops Technology ‘Better Than Steroids’ for Athlete Recovery Read More
Have You Pretended to Know What ‘the Cloud’ Is? You’re Not Alone Read More
Submitting your tip... please wait!
Comments (702)
barackem
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:28amBible study. No problem. Church service with a congregation of fifty. Pushing the limits and showing a lot of disrespect to the neighbors. They paid a lot for their homes too.
Diane TX
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:15amI used to have a home on three acres that had a 20 by 40 pool, a separate pool house, and a finished basement that accommodated sit down diners for forty plus people. Ten more people would have had little effect.
I had these dinners many times, without any problem. I also had huge pool parties without any problem. The only difference I can see, is that these were meetings of Christians. We have freedom of religion, GUARANTEED by our Constitution. We are now in in “crazy times” where the Judea Christian principles that the USA was founded on, are under attack. Jews are under attack. Christians are under attack. We now give homage to the murderess religion of Islam under the guise of “social justice”.
PLEASE. The whole concept of Islam goes against much of our Constitution. A “religion” that endorses child rape “when the child can bear the weight of a man”is ridiculous as the Mormons having multiple wives. The belief that the women have in this “religion” – that woman who don’t cover their self are lower caste then they are, is also ridiculous. Here’s my message to Muslim women. I think that you all are pathetic. I don’t want to have anything to do with any of you because you are obviously stupid. I believe that men and women have equal right to opportunity. If my husband doesn’t have to cover himself when out in public, neither will I.
Report Post »KingArthurUp
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 5:13amBARACKEM is a ******.
Report Post »Jackers
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 6:44amIt’s the never-ending war against Christianity while Islamic mosques are popping up left and right… And it’s just another blow to our personal freedoms.
I’m tired of this ever-expanding government trying to control every aspect of my life from what type of light bulbs I’m “allowed” to purchase to how much salt I “may” consume… I thought that we were the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave…
We must stand up for our rights and get back to the Constitution. 2012 cannot come soon enough…
Report Post »Postolic
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:07amI wonder if others in that neighborhood have held pool parties, special events, or dinners that included music, dancing, ect.? I’ll bet no one called the “city code-enforcment department” on them. Dancing, drinking and carousing, that’s cool; but getting together for a prayer meeting and biblestudy, that’s totally unacceptable. Welcome to the People’s Republic of Amerika!
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:51amSeperation of Church and State case closed. The Constitution guarantees religious freedom so the neighbors are going have to suck it up.
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:53amThe should counter sue the city for attacking their first amendment rights. And if this isn’t a sign of how government is destroying America nothing is.
Report Post »JasonFreelance13
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 8:35amThis one’s easy. First amendment. Where two or more are gathered in my name I shall be there. God trumps city ordinances.
Report Post »one years food ration like glenn says
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 8:49amYou only get religious freedom in cali if it’s muslim/ islamist teachings.. Don’t you get that ? Christians are being attacked for no reason other than being Christian and believing in Jesus…
Report Post »gwssacredcause
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:04amIt is the duty of a Christian to obey the laws of the land, but an even greater duty is to worship God and give thanks for all we have been graciously given. I do not see what difference it makes how much the people paid for their home. I also remember other socialist organizations controlling religious activity, socialist (Adolf Hitler),comes to mind. I wonder if the same enforcement would be brought to bare against those loud prayers of Muslims since the President thinks they sound soooo beautiful.
Report Post »RIGHTHOOK
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:10amThis is clearly contrived and spearheaded by an anti-Christian mindset. The city council of Temecula, CA recently approved the building of a Mosque after endless hours of viable data conveying the systemic pitfalls of such an approval. They city council felt an “obligation” and were concerned with the backlash of not affording “equality” to these Islamic maniac’s which is exactly what those behind the Mosque were angling for. They get special consideration and the Christian’s get throttled. A Mosque in Temecula, CA will ultimately be found to have infiltrated the community with destructive behavior‘s and the city will lament it’s decision to be “politically correct”.
Report Post »What is right is now wrong and what is wrong is now right. We are a nation “circling the drain”.
RockaRolla
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:25amYeah I am with you. While I can imagine insidious plots here and there I don’t think this is one of them. They need to form a proper church for their congregation. It’s not like they charged them with a crime just fined them for unlawful assembly in a residential neighborhood. In my town you’d require a permit for a gathering that size for any reason I believe. Just don‘t think it’s always enforced but week after week not a surprise they’d eventually say something.
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:01amChristians need to be careful. We are supposed to give Ceaser that which is his.
If it just takes a permit, let them get the permit. A house Bible study with five folks is a bit different than a church service with fifty people.
What would you think, if the person three houses down from you started having muslim services in his house, with fifty people, and it violated some city code? Would you side with him.
We have the first ammendment, it applies to all, just be smart and abide by the city rules.
ChiefGeorge
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:06amYep! All it takes is one person to call the police or code and they must respond to the callers complaint, go out and knock on doors. I flew a model airplane (electric) made out of foam in a local park that I pay mucho tax dollars to use and got a visit from the Sheriff two days after the fact. Apparantly someone came to the park to see what the sound was coming from, took down my plate and turned me in. OBTW, no one else was using the park and it was at appropriate daylight hours. Not only did a sheriff come out but two squad cars with two separate deputies. Apparantly the other deputy was called the previous weekend for the same thing on me but did not get the matter resolved because I was already gone. So he wanted to come out and see for himself. I showed them my plane collection but they could not show me the code I was in violation of but assured me their was one against my activity. Oh boy! One person!
Report Post »casseopea42
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:27amSo where do i send money to support thier fines till they get a permit?
Report Post »Ronko
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:28amCalifornia is definitely in the wrong here as that violates the 1st amendment. They can sugarcoat it all they want but they still violated their 1st amendment rights.
Report Post »Tanglefoot84302
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:59am@ Diane TX – Before you make yourself look more foolish than you already do, it would certainly benefit you to research the religions that you are badmouthing before you publish something for the world to see. Your comment about Mormons having or being allowed to have “many wives” is wrong in every way, shape and form. Please do your homework so you can be informed. The group that I believe you are referring to – that live in Texas – are 100% NOT MORMON. Check it out, you will see that I am correct. If you would like to be educated about real “Mormons” you are welcome to visit the official websites of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (lds.org or mormon.org). Either one will have answers to any of your questions, so that in the future you can make educated comments about our religion. Have a great day!
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:20amHey RangerP,
Report Post »Jesus says render unto ceasar what is ceasar’s.
The Constitution states that Religion and religious practices ARE NOT CEASAR’S
So there for the people should tell the GOVERNMENT TO GET BEND AND THEY’LL WORSHIP GOD AND WHERE THEY PLEASE.
CASE CLOSED
Oldtimer2
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:26amIsn’t the city of San Juan Capistrano named after the first church mission in that area? Irony. Liberals clinging to their zoning laws and Gaia.
Report Post »Hermeneuticals
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:26amSorry Barackem, this is constitutionally protected, its the city that may be in hot water.
Report Post »BrownBear
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:28amLoud disruptions that don’t need permits:
1) Backyard pool parties with alcohol.
2) kids
3) Watching a movie in your home theater. In most of those homes people “pay a lot of money for”.
So why should someone need a permit to exercise a constitutional right to peacefully assemble?
Therein lies the religious bigotry of humanism and a perfect example of what “fair” means to leftists:
A child thinks it’s fair to take a toy from someone else just because they want it. And after they steal the toy, they don’t fee deprived anymore. Their logic is: “That seems fair to ME; who cares about what’s “fair” to you?
– It’s the same logic for socialists and it stretches to their hatred of the religious rights of others. It’s not “fair” they should have to be annoyed by others. “Make them stop annoying me. It‘s only fair that I shouldn’t have to be offended…” I think one group even claims it’s their right to have “freedom from religion”.
The problem is with the –offended– because to be offended is a personal choice. You can’t make laws to punish others for the way someone else perceives reality.
You don’t have a right to “freedom FROM religion”, but you do have a right to “freedom OF religion.”
Report Post »They SMEAR what they FEAR
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:44amBARACKEM…so its ok to have 50 people over to watch a football game, have B-day party, drink, and jam up the street with cars but thats not disrespecting the neighbors??? Dumb@SS
Report Post »dcubed
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:52amI agreed with Barackem on the basis of creating a parking and noise problems for neighbors UNTIL I read they have a large enough backyard to accommodate parking and there is no noise problem. If there is no intrusion of neighbors’ rights, then they have every right to hold these meetings.
Report Post »1776Federalist
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:53amDianeTX: “Mormons” have not practiced polygamy for over 120 years. Perhaps we should let that go by now. Polygamists are not members of the LDS church.
Report Post »Giveitrevolution
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:55amBarackum you should work for Soros. Your a disgrace.
Report Post »biblegeek119
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:56amHow can it be a problem if there is no parking problems or no noise? Which it is the case in this story. If you wan to have a party with 50 people (no cars parked on the street) in your house for a bbq every Sunday, would that be a reason for the government to have a say?
Report Post »Jimmy Stewart
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:57amI’m sure if it was a beer keg party, nobody would care. My point is 50 people is not a big deal. If people are parking where they shouldn‘t be then the law should apply but it’s still a free country.
Report Post »robert
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:58am“California City Fines Couple for Holding Bible Study in Their Home’
If, however, they were teaching jihad, it would be perfectly o.k.,ecause they would be minorities who are NEVER to be offended, especially when they’re planting explosives.
Report Post »ozz
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:10pmSo where are the leftys screaming seperation of church and state now?
Report Post »TXJackrabbit
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:45pm@Tanglefoot84302. Historically the Mormons did allow and encourage multiple wives. How many wives did Brigham Young have? Fifty Five is the number normally given although there is some dispute on how many he of those “marriages” he consummated. On his death at least 16 wives who had children with him were still living. There is some evidence that Joseph Smith supported and practiced polygamy but this was disputed and contributed to some early splintering of the Mormon church. The Mormon establishment only changed this because of pressure from society and government in 1890. The 1890 Manifesto repudiating polygamy was issued in order to gain acceptance of Utah as a state. Groups like the one here in Texas are splinters from the mainstream Mormons that do not believe the 1890 Manifesto was a Revelation from Jesus Christ as claimed by the LDS leadership.
Report Post »azitdad
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:48pm@Diane TX
I agree with nearly all you have stated, except one: Mormons don’t have multiple wives. Polygamy was banned by our church a hundred years ago. Anyone caught practicing polygamy is excommunicated.
You might be thinking about the FLDS church out in Colorado City, AZ. They, like the Muslims also endorse child rape. In addidion they endorse waterboarding infants, and all kinds of other disgusting crimes against women and children. Please don’t confuse Mormons with those people who clearly are being brainwashed and manipluated. We don’t do stuff like that to our women and children. Do you?
Report Post »addie
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:54pmYou can‘t pick your family and you can’t pick your neighbors! Why does price of the house matter in this situation anyway? The fact is, they own their home and property and they should be able to hold whatever they choose so long as people are not parking on the neighbors lawn, leaving trash in the neighbors lawn and interfering with local noise ordinances or do like the government telling you what you can and can’t do? Do you really think the government has a right to tell you that you can’t have more than 3 people visiting YOUR home? That is a freaking joke! What is the point of owning property when the government dictates how many people can visit you?
Report Post »gopack
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:58pmBarackem,
From the article: “According to the Dispatch, the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren’t a problem.” As well as, “There’s no singing or music,” Stephanie said. “It’s meditative.”
Help me understand what the problem is. Noise? No. Parking? No. Upset neighbors? No, one voiced a concern in the past.
“Big Brother” is doing everything possible to run every aspect of our lives-and getting away with it.
Report Post »Mad Mike
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:00pm@Barackem, Well, bible study IS apparently a problem, they were apparently fined for either activity. The state (and by inference the home owners neighbors whom the state represents) only have an interest in this if the gatherings (of any kind) are demonstrably creating a nuisance by, for instance, parked cars blocking driveways, roadways etc. Without a demonstrable nuisance, the state has no reasonable standing to act. This goes against any notion of property rights and, in this case, religious freedom, both of which are core tenants of our constitution and the principals underlying our government. Without such demonstrable cause, and a little shared inconvenience is NOT cause the state should not act and doing so is wrong. If this is targeted because the meetings are religious then this is criminal.
Report Post »This_Individual
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:06pmIt’s not California, it’s a city in California. In my city, we do not have any such municipal code. Anyway, it’s just a way to get revenue for the city. I wouldn’t go overboard with saying that the government is stopping Christians from assembling.
Report Post »campT
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:11pmWell said, I don’t want church being held in the house next door taking up all the parking in the neighborhood twice a week!
Report Post »encinom
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:13pmsmithclar3nc3
Report Post »Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:51am
Seperation of Church and State case closed. The Constitution guarantees religious freedom so the neighbors are going have to suck it up.
______________________________________________
Its not a Seperation case (establishment clause), but the second clause, the free exercise clasue. And unless the State can prove that the bible study group violated sound/light ordaination, the excess cars blocked traffic or created a nuance, the State’s case fails a First Amendment challenge.
nuttyvet
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:14pmI agree. At first I thought this was an outrage but then I read that the couple pretty much have a church so… obey the damn laws!
Report Post »barrytanya
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:16pmI bet if they had 50+ show up for a Superbowl party you wouldn’t object…but wait…that’s right…that isn’t disrespectful to the high dollar home owners.
Report Post »welloddyfriggindah
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:16pmI wonder if this applies to all gatherings of a certain size or frequency? Block parties, birthdays, poker night, baby showers…?
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:46pmdo you need a permit to have a party with more than four people present??? idiots all.
Report Post »DwightSchrut
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:52pmJust read the article. I found the comments very entertaining. Especially the comment from DABIG2NA “I assume he/her is a Christian” (you’ll know them by their love), he calls BARACKEM a Dick for not having his same view then proclaims “In the Meantime God our Father will deal with the nosy neighbor” Really…what did Barackem say that was so wrong to label him a dick and pronounce divine judgment? American Christians are scary. (i’m one of them) :(
Report Post »karen1967
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:55pmI’m sorry…I live in the country with neighbors reasonably close by, but not on top of us, and if anyone of us wants to have a gathering for bible study or a party or whatever, no one complains. it’s our property. The govt is overstepping AGAIN, I could see if teh people gathering there were being charged for a service, then the city could consider it a business and require permits, or if they were gathering in public, but this is a private residence, not a public building or thoroughfare. One more reason to stay out of CA–they just proved they are full of left wing wacko nut jobs.
Report Post »scott
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:05pmBARACKEM your an idiot!!!!
Report Post »RonSr
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:05pmIt seems only one neighbor objected, so perhaps that neighbor should MOVE.
Report Post »woodyl1011fl
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:06pmYou would have done well in the Third Reich, Stalin‘s Russia or Nero’s Rome. Oh., your’e in Californnia not a whole lot very soon.
Report Post »Doris
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:26pmI hate to say it being a christian but I agree brackem. i enjoyed going to a large church but our study grps. were in small grps.9-12 or so.You put 50 people in a neighborhood the cars will overwhelm.
Report Post »Doris
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:31pmI have to change my post now. I reread the item. If there are no noise, no parking problem,what is the problem.? sounds like these neighbors dont like church grps.
Report Post »chrisst41
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:35pmWell, just how big is their house? 50 people wouldn’t fit in my neighbors back yard, but would fit in mine and just down the street a gathering of 1000 could take place.
Report Post »Black Robe Preacher
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:41pmOH OKAY! Little, by little, one by one, right by right! SURE justify this infringement of The Bill of Rights. Sooner, or later (MORE LIKELY SOONER THAN LATER) the “regulators” WILL BE KNOCKING ON YOUR DOOR . “If we don’t hang together, SURELY we will hang separately”
Report Post »boncarbo7
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:53pmIs the ACLU involved? If so maybe someone should ask if the meetings were being held for Muslims would the fine be waived.
Report Post »Annette
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:01pmI think the police have a point here. Once in a while bible study for 20 people is alright but every week? The church of 50 is totally ridiculous. This is not a freedom of religion issue. There are plenty of places that would allow congregation to worship. We must also not assume that “Bible” study means there are no cult like behaviors that are concerning parents and we don’t know if these 20 – 50 people every week cause parking issues. We have a little league team that practices on a field in our neighborhood and it is annoying to me these parents drive fast park next to stop signs and park in areas that make it difficult to get by so they don’t have to “walk.” I don’t complain but its irritating.
Report Post »stablepar
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:26pmand the punishment for disrespecting someone in the good old us of a is? and under sharia law it is?
Report Post »Right_on_the_Left_Coast
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:29pmI can understand the government wanting to regulate traffic congestion, or potential noise pollution… something that has an effect on the surrounding community. But as long as you’re not violating parking codes, or causing a disturbance, the government should have no right to tell you what you can do in your private residence or how many people are allowed to gather there. It is your home, and your property, not the government’s.
Requiring people to have a permit for gatherings of a religious nature in their own homes is tantamount to claiming that we must have government approval before being allowed to practice our religion in private. They do not want prayer in schools, or in other public places? Fine, then we pray in our homes.
And now they tell us we can’t pray in our homes without government approval? What happened to the separation of church and state that liberals love to tout? If the government grants a permit for a religious gathering, is that not the same as government approval? The government has no right to tell me who I can have over to my home, and they have no business asking about the purpose of our visit. The minute that Big Brother starts demand that we get his permission, and then pay for the use of our own property, is the minute all our rights have gone out the window.
I hope that this goes all the way to the Supreme Court and is deemed absolutely unconstitutional.
Report Post »ACLUHater
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:55pmIf it was a porn-watching club then it would be fine.
Report Post »TangoBravo
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 4:00pmOkay, after reading most of the comments it seems everyone is going off on a Christian rant and missing the point of the story when you get past the headline. You may be Christian but you still have to follow the laws of common decency, that is after all what Christ did. If any of you would take the two seconds to look up the San Juan Capastrano govt. website, you‘d see that for a day care of less than 8 kids a permit isn’t needed. Licensing is for the kids protection but not a permit. It’s when there are over 8 kids that you need it. Take a deep breath and try to bring your Christian morals to the forefront and think about it. A small number of people the govt. didn’t mind. It was when the people in the church meeting, not Bible study ( big difference and we all know it) started to have a large number of people attending regularly. That’s when it became a problem.
Report Post »jgsr
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 4:16pmI am as conservative as possible, but I am also a person that despises ALL factual misrepresentations.
Report Post »This entire piece is as much biased reporting as anything on MSNBC.
Think people….use that brain you have, for something other than as a spacer to keep your ears apart.
Residential streets are narrow. They are narrow because their purpose is to handle “residential” parking needs. AND STILL ALLOW THE PASSAGE OF FIRETRUCKS AND EMT VEHICLES.
If both sides of a residential street are clogged with the cars of people attending meetings in homes for the purpose of” Amway meetings, Tupperware parties, Black Panthers, Sierra club, American Communist party, BIBLE STUDY etc…..cars will be parked along both sides of the street,,,,,which not only makes it hard for neighbors to drive down their OWN street, get into and out of their OWN driveways, but WIDE EMERGENCY VEHICLES can not get down that street.
There are zoning rules for a reason, and it isn’t to piss off Christians and deny them their rights to worship as they PLEASE.
Operating any “business” out of a residence is not denied because of the subject of the grouping, but because of the traffic it creates.
In areas zoned for business, there is OFF STREET PARKING…..where parked cars do not infringe on others’ Rights…..including the Right to have emergency vehicles come to their aid.
I didn’t at 1st understand Tea Party Fundamentalists being labeled sanctimonious religious idiots, but I now understand those tha
mcjj
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 4:25pmThis is not saying that there are 50 different vehicles though. I lived on 2 acres and often had my family over for holidays (abt 60) and such which would generate about 20 cars. My neighbors noticed nothing and we always had space to park. This is purely a religious dispute on the part of the one neighbor. Since when does having a social gathering downgrade property value? I hardly think if they had a weekly wine tasting party that anyone would care.
Report Post »The New Centurion
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 4:47pmLeave it to an idiot who supported Obama to defend the City of San Juan Capistrano for it’s over-reaching intrusive violation of these people’s free speech and property rights. I wouldn’t expect any less.
Report Post »IAMINFORMED
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 5:58pmYour another idiot Barackem!
Freedom of Religion. AND it’s my property, I pay for it and I pay the taxes. Take all of those communist home owners associations and shove them where the sun don’t shine. Thus why I live in the country.
It is time we exercise our 2nd amendment right, form our own militia, and protect our FREEDOM from governments that want to regulate and fine us straight to hell.
Report Post »WOLFNme
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 6:33pmWe r NOT a Communist country that Forbids reading of Holy books and hiding like the Jews in WW2. THIS IS the USA and NAME ANOTHER PREs that Ever proposed and took sides on this rediculous issue. I am offended by screaming football parties and some are over 50 people and thsouand american homes each yr host parites NO ONE HAS A PERMIT I KNOW IT. BARACK is a Muslim in guise, and had SUBBED our country into voting for him.
Report Post »IF any left or right, knew hed be more concerned and spend time on FINING persons who are reaching for faith in the midst of horrible ncertain economic times and PUNISH them fiancially for doing it, it ALSO is a reminder of THE BUS he was caught SAYING , that WE Americans LOOK fOr a CRUTCH of RELIGION is tough TIMES on his campaing, these are not the words OR thoughts of a SUPPOSED CHristian President. THIS PRES must be IMpeached for his bail out of Pvt Failing Sectors, wasteful spedning and having NO sEnSE, NO credentials from COLLEGE TO SHOW US adn had NEVer entered a Church on a Majr Holdiay saying he has prvt spriitaul leaders in teh WH. REALLY? From what Power ,SATAN or GOD are u getting guidance from ? Started a NON WAR in LIBYA against congress then begged UN to rally and take lead, Impeachmetn was there NO ONE asked for it. OBAMA GATE is under way, get him out , BTW when we started as cntry, Churches bldbs wernt built and many held svcs in HOMES , no permits, why different now? Fraterniities in college have off campus parties NO PERM askd 4!!
NHwinter
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 6:52pmIt sounds like full blown Communism. Maybe we will all be experiencing this soon. Bloomberg sure was in line with it in NYC on the 9/11 commemoration.
Report Post »jmmulkey
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:14pm1st Amendment folks. Freedom of Religion and the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF! If their property is that big, then 50 people shouldn’t be a problem. My parents started churches in our home on at least 2 or 3 occasions. Once the attendance started getting up there, then they moved it to another building.
I swear it just amazes me that God has not simply broken California off of the continent and shoved it out into the sea. I hope these folks fight with everything they have, and that they keep on having their services and bible studies. The government has no right, and is prohibited from telling them how, when and where they can worship!!
Report Post »Contrarian51
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:34pm1. If the gatherings are so quiet and private, how does the neighbor even know they’re a bible study class? And if they aren‘t in any way interfering with the neighbor’s pursuit of happiness, why did the neighbor complain in the first place? Is there an interview with the neighbor? Is the neighbor’s side of the story anywhere to be found?
2. Many church congregations have fewer than 50 people. This does sound more like a regular religious service than anything else, and zoning laws are what they are and these folks need to comply like anyone else. I know most of you criticizing Barackem would be on the other side of the argument if these folks were Muslims. In fact, most of you would be rooting for FBI surveillance of a potential terrorist ring. Like someone said, if you need a permit, get one. It’s probably a lot cheaper than the fine.
3. @Scott: You’re the idiot for not knowing that “your an idiot” is illiterate and nonsensical. Thanks for playing, though.
Report Post »Gold Coin & Economic News
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:45pmStand fast! Continue to hold prayer meetings and church services. Don’t pay the fines. Tell the city to take a hike.
One of these days an incident like this is going to lead to much, much bigger issues…like revolution.
Report Post »VOTECONSERVATIVE
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:54pmI bet BARACKM wouldn’t mind if it were 50 secular progressives gathered together to celebrate Winter Solstice.
Report Post »rockstone
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:15pmI agree. All you mutts who don’t… what’s the limit? OK… you think it’s all right for 50 people to pull up on the street on Sunday AM. Fine…….. I say yes as well.We’re agreed there.
Now…. will one of you please tell me what is too many (51? 52? 1052????) and should require them to go elsewhere.
Please….
Report Post »Rowwdy
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:12pmB_S Barackem. Did you not read the ENTIRE article? They have “plenty of parking space”. This is EXACTLY what happened to Jews under Hitler’s rise.
Report Post »1TrueOne55
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:16pm@dianeTX:
Report Post »Re-read your new testament especially the Books of Corinthians and how Paul dealt with the issue of females in a church setting and how they were to be clothed in public… And then tell Muslim Women they are stupid.
I follow the beliefs of Jesus and his Father in heaven and just because you feel that something in the US is allowed does not mean that it is allowed in the same religious believers elsewhere and you can not push your belief system on others they need to be allowed the right to reject your version of belief since you might like to be near naked in a public setting and a Muslim woman not that is here right, that is her religious belief. If we believe in the same God of the Universe the father of Jesus then why do we hate others…
milton kindberg
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:23pmI think you are missing one large point,They are not impacting the street,All of the parking is on there land,they are not a noise problem.What we see here is one person who doesn’t want people studying the bible to gather.And a socialist city council mentoring what people do in there own homes.Basically denies freedoms of these people If it was to be a rally For Obama that one jerk would not say a word.And the county government would look the other way.(THEY ARE TAKING AWAY THERE FREEDOM.) Take one here one there and soon you are controlled 100%As Obama wants to do to us.
Report Post »Viet Vet
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:36pm“code-enforcement office” Sounds like right out of 1984. Since they have declared war, what’s necessary is to stamp out atheism
Report Post »tootsie roll
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:52pmTypical remark from your ilk. Look it up if you don’t know the meaning. Atheists
Report Post »tootsie roll
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:55pmTo Barackem
Report Post »Read the Constituion that is if you CAN READ. PROBABLY CAN’T READ THOUGH. Atheist like you should require a permit to open your dumb mouths
jacksmom2
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:13amDiane TX: think you hit it right on the head. Religious discrimination is raising its ugly head under the muslim living in the people’s house. Sounds like a federal law is being violated by the moronic authorities in this community. I’m sure if everyone brought their prayer rugs, no one would complain.
Report Post »aaron3623
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:19amFact check.
Jefferson said “…I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”
The First Amendment said “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
Report Post »rodrob
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 12:39amShades of “1984,” or Stalin of USSR fame. When do you have to face the firing squad? Meetings of more than 3 people require a permit??? What Gestopo hoodlum runs this city?
Report Post »Weasel Hound 83
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 1:10amWhen your property has ample space for parking and no street conjestion is caused there is no “disrespect” being shown. Get a life, busy body; and stop trying to use the police power of the government to disrespect the rights of your neighbors which are supposed to be protected by the U.S. Constitution.
Report Post »ThinkThenDo
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 1:36amDiane TX – You made some good points and one serious error. Mormons don’t have multiple wives. Some of them did back in the 1800′s, but they stopped that before the dawn of the 1900′s. It‘s now the 2000’s and a LONG time since Mormons sanctioned multiple wives. Apostates and derivatives may do that, but not the mainstream Mormon church. And the Mormons aren’t responsible for what offshoots of their religion do any more than Catholics are responsible for Lutherans.
Report Post »Weasel Hound 83
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 2:31am1. Go back and read the article. Large property, no on-street parking/conjestion issue.
2. The ordinance says any Religious, fraternal, or social organization. RELIGIOUS ! ! !?????
3. The U.S. Constitution, Amendment 1 explicitly prohibits Congress from making any law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. If Congress “shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion” then neither shall anyone else. Yes even San Juan Capistrano, California. This law is in direct and blatant violation of the first amendment. Direct and blatant violation. Get it?
Report Post »lilcasper
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 2:39amExcuse me Barackem, do you know how to read? The story expresses the fact that their was no music or singing. There was a gathering of like minded people who’s sole intention was a quiet study of the Bible. None of the other neighbors were distressed by business conducted in that home. One person, who seems to be an outsider, and seems to be offended by the gathering of religious people, complained. I wonder if that person would be so offended if there was an orgy conducted in a privately owned home on a regular basis.
Report Post »WeeeDontNeeedNoSteeenkinBadges
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 4:00amFear not, true believers. When California kicks God off their land, God kicks California off His land.
Oh, what are those rumbling I hear?
“I’m afraid I have to leave you now. Nothing personal, you understand. We all have our faults. It’s just that mine is in California.” -Lex Luthor in “Superman”
Report Post »Verus Langham
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 4:09amJust the sort of ilk one would expect of one who has taken the Muslim in chief’s first adopted name as his avitar.. don’t you folks get it: under our Constitution we are granted the freedom from government intervention in our religious gatherings… your kind are always quick to quote the “separation of church and state” cliche whenever it fits your arguments… but herein the shoe is on the other foot and it is the government which has imposed regulations that countermand the tenets of what is clearly stated therein. If you’d taken the time to really read the article you might have discovered that it was said the neighbors were supportive, not against them – with only one dissenter who voiced his/her complaint. (Apparently they worked that out). The end of the matter will restore law and order and further define their inalienable right to peaceful assembly for any purpose they choose. Snotty remark that! (yours)
Report Post »hub77
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 4:13amWe do not know if they make constant noise, after many times of neighbors complaints.
Report Post »I called Police many times because on Sundays I our Club House people made very laud music, noise etc and Club House never paid any fines even police shout down their celebrations, but if it was after 11 PM>.
Its looks that fake-Jews who control the Congress and own FED going to the next level of controlling the whole our live in US.
LibertarianRight
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 7:55amWho cares if they paid a lot for their homes? The meeting is on private property – as long as it doesn’t create noise pollution that interrupts the business of others, it qualifies as a peaceful religious assembly – doubly protected by the First Amendment. It clearly didn’t do any such thing. Thus, the government is violating the civil liberties of the people involved. Of course, this is nothing new – private property laws are not respected in America anymore, especially in residential neighborhoods, where the HOA gets to dictate “contract terms” on property it does not own.
Report Post »blazer809
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 8:24amIs this occurring outside? Is there an issue with parking? What if 15 people came in the morning in 2 or 3 vehicles, is that a problem? What if they’re having lunch together and then talk about the bible, is that a violation of 9-3.301? I wonder how officials would act if they find out they’re reading from the Quran (Koran)?
Report Post »SeannyRotten
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:43amEVERYONE, go to the Capistrano Dispatch website where this article originally appeared and make comments THERE.
Report Post »KCBC123
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 4:41pmI get that having too many people can be a disturbance, but it is hard to imagine how a Bible study could get too out of hand. It sounds a little ridiculous to fine these people. And to the people who are using this as some kind of weird prompt to trash Islam, I should point out that 1) this has nothing to do with Islam, and 2) You seem to have a terribly poor grasp of what Islam is about. It is not about child rape anymore than Christianity is. The priests who molest children are a shame to their religion the same way that Muslims who do the same are. When you pout about Islam at every possible mention of religion, you sound like a nut, and, much more importantly, you discredit yourself and distract people from this very important issue: this couple is being punished for holding a Bible study. That is total BS. Get angry about that. Don’t keep railing against Islam or people will just ignore you all together.
Report Post »jhaydeng
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 4:51pmHoly pooh!
Report Post »lanerd
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 9:17pmBarackem , read the constitution , it plainly states , Amendment 1 in particular , even though it refers to the Congress , it states , shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or the free exercise there of ; . Good luck with the city violating the first amendment !
Report Post »NewDaddy2011
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 12:09pm@DianeTX: To be fair, Mormons no longer have multiple wives and haven’t had that practice for over 100 years.
About this story, this is just a sad state of affairs that a city code like that was even put on the books. That is the main problem, not the fact that it was being enforced. Get rid of the unconstitutional law.
Report Post »KamReg
Posted on September 21, 2011 at 5:28pmIf you’re having a regular Sunday service of 50 members, you are essentially a church. Heck the Duggars are a church with less than that. Give to Caesar‘s what is Caesar’s and get the permit.
Report Post »tipical
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 12:31pmThis group has more respect than you do, they not only fight for their own rights but yours too. If you let one anonymous complaint rule what type of groups can meet in a private home and of all things for a religious purpose. Read the US Deceleration of Independence, it is not to be superceded by any city, county, or state rules. If it was a meeting of nineteen people intending to fly aircraft into the World Trade Center, complain all you want and get some action, but a religious meeting. Please explain how this religious meeting would hurt any one.
Report Post »ertdfg
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 2:37pm“In my town you’d require a permit for a gathering that size for any reason I believe” – RockaRolla
“Chuck Fromm was also told regular gatherings of three or more people require a conditional use permit” – from the story above…
What town do you live in that requires a permit for a gathering OF THREE PEOPLE?
Seriously, where the hell is it that you can’t have two friends over without a government sanctioned permit allowing you to have them both visit you? Is this town in North Korea?
Report Post »Robotics_Geek
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:01pmWhat if they were nudists? Would they be fined? No. The “code” specifically targets religion and is therefore unenforceable. Property RIGHTS are non-negotiable as long as people stand up for their rights and don’t allow themselves to be bullied. How many wild, drunken and loud parties are ignored while these “religious” people are singled out. It started this way in Nazi Germany. BTW Nazi party stands for The National SOCIALIST German Workers’ Party. So all those socialists out there calling Tea Party people Nazi’s better look out because people are remembering what the Nazi socialists did and are doing again. Progressive = Socialist = Nazi!
Report Post »Kevin52
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 12:27amObviously Barakem, studying the Bible is a problem for you. I doubt if they were having a beer/pool party you would care that much but anything as dangerous like a Bible study and whoa!!! Give me a break!
Report Post »ShellyN
Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:32pmSend an email to the city of SJC and let them know what you think about their ‘code enforcement’. codeenf@sanjuancapistrano.org
Report Post »colleen10001
Posted on March 29, 2012 at 8:03pmThey paid a lot for them homes….what kind of a goofy comment is that. Then again “barachem” is your sign in. Do you have any idea what our country even stands for? Your funny.
Report Post »WeMustNeverForget
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:26amThis is why we need to take a stand against these actions from our government. Consider allying ourselves and supporting organizations such as the Alliance Defense Fund as they proactively defend our First Amendment right. Let’s not give up hope nor cede another inch.
Report Post »http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/Pray
Bullhorn Guy
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:03pmACLJ.org
Report Post »billy396
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:15pmAbsolutely right. The government of Barack Hussein Obama wants every excuse possible to do away with private property rights, as well as freedom of association. That doesn’t fit in with their mantra of government control over everything. If you have a very large home on a large plot of land you can have a family reunion of 50 or 60 people and no one would complain. As the article stated, there was plenty of parking on their property, and there was no noise to complain about. It’s quite obvious that the person complaining did so because of the nature of the gathering, even though they couldn’t see or hear what was going on. If one were to complain about a Muslim gathering in the Republik of Kalifornia, they’d be laughed out of town, after the lawsuit against them was won. The ground zero mosque is a perfect example. They named it Cordoba because that’s the name of a huge mosque in Spain that also marked the site of an “Islamic Victory” over their enemies, i.e. every other religion on Earth. So-called “Social Justice” is code for discrimination against regular people, and special, protected rights for sick, twisted rapists and wife-beaters. These people regularly get away with rape, so-called “honor-killings” where they kill their own children, and many other barbaric acts. I’ll never understand why fundamentalist Muslims want to turn back the clock to a world of barbarianism. They are so terrified of women that they must dominate, control and abuse them whenever po
Report Post »Godfather.1
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:56pmThis is not a infringement on First Amendment rights. If they wanted to have the gathering, they should have applied for a permit, it’s that simple. The ordinance also requires fraternal and non-profit organizations to obtain a permit before holding gatherings in the neighborhood. There are all types of restrictions for residential areas and this just happens to be one of them.
@billy396
I know it might be difficult to understand since you are a tea partier, but this has nothing to do with the federal government or Obama. I’m not sure if you read the article, but these people were cited under the city code and not under federal. I’m assuming you know the difference.
Comparing this to the “ground zero mosque,” as you call it, is an improper analogy. If there were a zoning restriction in that area that which would prevent the “mosque” from operating, then that would be a different issue. However, because there are no restrictions, the “mosque,” like any other religious institution can operate there. To deny the owners of the “mosque” the right to operate in that location would amount to an infringement of their property rights.
There is a huge difference between the “mosque” and this California case, but, since you are a tea partier, I am not surprised that you confuse the issues.
Report Post »Palmpilot
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:18amIt’s the progressive way of doing things in all levels of Government, institute permits, regulations, rules, license requirements, classifications, certificates, certification, authorization policy, sanctions, permission slips…………..you name it! At first implementation it’s all innocent with minimum impact to your freedom under the guise “for your protection” as deemed necessary by Big Brother (Federal/State/local). Then as time goes on……..the corrupt Government expands their control “in the back room” thru expanding regulations thereby stealing more and more of your freedoms before you’re even aware of it. The key, one little change/bit by bit at a time over a prolonged period of time and America will wake us to find its freedoms have been lost overnight and not even see it coming. It doesn’t help when 70% of the public is Sheeple to begin with…………..nothing more than useful idiots! Be prepared…….the sign of the times is upon us. Now, where did I put my practice targets?
Report Post »loriann12
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:26amI’m in TEXAS. I got an ordinance violation for parking a trailer (really small 1,000 lb capacity max) on “unimproved ground.“ I could either move it to ”improved ground” or get a permit to improve the ground it was on. It’s been there for 2 years, and they’re just now hitting me on it. So, in order to “improve” any part of my own property, as in pour a concrete pad to set the darn thing on, I have to pay to get a permit. What is this country coming to?
Report Post »100 Million Patriots Standing
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 6:09amIncrementalism- Obama professed a talent for it in a magazine interview. paraphrasing; “I am patient and will take what I can get, a little at a time or a lot, doesn’t really matter, even if I get a small piece of what I want I can always add to it later. Sometimes you just can’t get everything all at once”.
Report Post »one years food ration like glenn says
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:02amYeah and think about it ,it really doesn’t matter to them because if you pay for a permit the ground is still unimproved but they will be fine with it as long as yo pay for the permit but if not then you better improve the lot.. like it matters either way to them.. I would bring it to court and and word it just this way.. Anyway, that’s me… Good luck with the gestapo …
Report Post »aharvnz
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:18amSo if you hold a dinner party with friends and discuss religion you need a permit. WOW.
Report Post »Are they registered as a charity or religious organization for tax purposes, if not then it shouldn’t apply.
Ron_WA
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 5:06amIf your intention is to hold a dinner party & prayer is a part of it then there is no issue. If your intention is to break the law then there is likely to be an issue.
Prayer & worship are good things but there are ways to go about it w/out intentionally breaking the laws of the community.
Who’d support placing a Mosque &/ worship service at Ground Zero once the community ruled against it? I wouldn’t.
Report Post »TulsaYeeHaw
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:08amThe community doesn’t get to decide.
The first amendment does.
Nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof, doesn’t mean unless we can use a permit and gathering code as an excuse to prevent Christian worship, it means
Report Post »NOR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.
Rojubob
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 8:08amSome laws are Unconstitutional. Ground zero is not private property. This case should be thrown out locally as Unconstitutional but this is California and the home owners will probably have to spend tons of money to take it to the Supreme Court to have their Constitutional rights upheld.
Report Post »Viet Vet
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:45pmAs Lincoln said, bad laws need to be broken! But I’m convinced that short of taking up arms, things are only going to continue to get worse.
Report Post »wisehiney
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:17amBeware of the Soros paid trolls. They are here. Can’t you smell them?
Report Post »Mimi24
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:10pmSulphur?
Report Post »Tronix
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:15amI really can’t believe this!!!!…..wow I have no words
Report Post »Christianmyson
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:12amWe need to get Glen B. to help in setting up something so we can donat to a fund and help folks fight this kind of crap.
Report Post »Bullhorn Guy
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:10pmSet it up yourself. Or find an organization that already does. Why do you think you need Glenn Beck to set it up for you? That’s weird, man.
Report Post »Faith1029
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:07pmNo it is not weird at all. Glenn Beck has the means, clout and exposure to help arrange something like this. Otherwise, it would probably just fall by the wayside. If it were me, I would contact Jay Sekulow. He is the Chief Counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), one of the most prestigious law firms in the country. He is an accomplished Supreme Court advocate, renowned expert on religious liberty, and a respected broadcaster.
Report Post »LMW
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:09amA bible study in ones home is now against the law? This has gone too fa. It is time for America to take this country back from the likes of people who say it is okay for Gays to marry but not to study the bible in a home. I am sick to my stomach and sorry to think there are times I believe it is time to start hanging and flaying people in the town square. Shooting is too good as hanging can be made to choke to death in place of breaking the neck. Flaying first so they can feel the skin slowly being stripped from their bodies. It is a good I only think of what I would love to do and not really do it. Forgive me my Lord God for having such thoughts but I can understand now how people can lose it and commit mayham upon thier enemies.
Report Post »survivorseed
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:20amLMW – Before you go off half cocked and become a sadistic mass murdering psycopath, please be aware that is not bible studies that are in question. (thats just a clever way for the writers at the Blaze to keep you angry). It is in fact a law that “prohibits religous, fratenal or non profit organisations in residential areas WITHOUT A PERMIT”.
Get a permit and the problem is solved and you can pray away whatever you like with your buddies.
loriann12
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:23amI went to a church in Illinois that had moved in that direction. They highly encouraged each Sunday school class to break up into individual groups for Wednesday nights and either have one home to go to or rotate among the members in that small group. It was called Small Group Evening studies. It saves money for the church because they don’t have to have the building open on Wednesdays, and small groups are proven to be more effective than one big class. I guess liberals did a study, and since it’s not Muslims doing it, they’re against it. I wonder if they let Muslims pray in the streets?
Report Post »ZeitgeistBuster
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:40amHey Survivor Seed,
Go back to basics. Congress shall pass NO LAW establishing a religion, OR in prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
This echos throughout the land and down the chain of State and Local government. this is just some pissed off neighbor of a different religion, or an intolerant Atheist who is trying to see how much trouble he can cause for his neighbor. It is an abuse of the concept of being a neighbor.
These people will have their meetings in some other facility if they keep growing, just for practical reasons. There is no need for the law to turn on us like this.
Report Post »Diane TX
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:43am@ survivorseed
Yeah, so what do I do about about my Muslim neighbors who have all these Muslim men standing around outside? At least on Fridays, they all go “somewhere” that I really don’t care about. Thank God for Fridays! My street is free from the non-Christians on this day!
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:49amYo survivorseed;
Report Post »Doesn’t sound like an organization to me in the first place. Just a bunch of people that have similar interest, like cooking,cars, whatever.
And it’s the same old story…one person makes a complant and the whole world has to follow suit. What stupidity!!!
V-Forge
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 8:12amLMW. Seek help. I know this makes us all mad. Entertaining such thoughts as those if kinda fringe and none of us thinks slowly skinning people is a great idea in the name of god or any cause. Think before you rant.
Report Post »one years food ration like glenn says
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 9:09am@survivorseed.. And, just what exactly is a permit going to do if you have one as opposed if you don’t ? What exactly are the people in question going to get when they pay for a permit ? Oh, I get it , it’s protection just like when you pay the mafia for protection, so that they will leave you alone.. Never mind I answered my own question.. FOOL ..
Report Post »brandonc
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:35amsurvivorseed, you need a serious reality check……if this was a Muslim group they wouldn’t have touched it with a 10 ft pole. the issue is they are taking our freedoms away slowly so we just accept it………its like the story of the frog in the boiling pot of water. if you turn the heat up slow enough the frog doesn’t even know its being boiled alive….ITS TIME TO WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Simonne
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:26pmThis is downright scary. It’s now against the law to have a bible study? I guess they could say they are just having friends over & discuss whatever they want but maybe having friends over is a crime also. This is just unbelievable.
Report Post »survivorseed
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 10:56pmOK, so post after post condemning me for having the audacity to suggest that they just do what the law requires and get a permit yet nobody calls out LMW for suggesting he/she wants to strip the skin off their bodies before choking them to death.
Report Post »Using your own logic, not coming out against these extreme views means you must condone them and you wonder why people label you violent extremists.
And yes Simonne, it is now illegal to have bible study classes in America…thats exactly what the story says.
AMERICA4EVER
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:08amMove out of that state and give it back to the Mexicans. It’s a wash.
Report Post »AMERICA4EVER
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:12amIt’s going to be at the bottom of the Pacific soon anyway.
Report Post »NoMoreBS
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:06amKommiefornica has become a Godless wasteland.
You can’t pray in your own home but anybody can smoke dope on the steps of any town hall in the state, the sodomites walk around naked and openly perform vile acts on each other in public and the worst thing you can do there is hurt the feelings of an illegal alien, God forbid!
“The big one” that dumps California into the sea is not getting here fast enough.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:52amThink it is a reference to San Fransespool
Report Post »huckleberry, 1 ea.
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 8:50am@ 11bravovet – it also happens at southern pride week-end in new orleans…in the streets, in broad daylight…
Report Post »Smokey_Bojangles
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:05amEven a family praying around the dinner table is illegal?Maybe next time they can say a prayer for Obama to get logic and Government to forsake Communism.
Report Post »Bill Rowland
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:57amPray for our President – Psalm 109:8
Report Post »That is my prayer several times a day.
pwatkins
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:03amSome religious organization should help sponsor them and fly them to ground zero and let them meet in the “one for all” proposed mosque headquarters…lol. Wake up America! We are still one nation under God and must remain just that. Freedom of religion rights are being abused under our current president and should be brought to the attention of congress.
Would California refuse to let a muslim get on his prayer rug in the street, don’t think so?
Report Post »Ron_WA
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:00amI’m a big fan of Freedom of Religion, a house is one’s home, peaceful assembly etc. but when the local community has forbid assembly of any nature w/out a permit & certain civil & safety parameters being in place then one who chooses to do otherwise is intentionally not only breaking the law but daring society to do something about it.
Sorry, I agree w/ the worship but disagree w/ their blatant disregard of the law. Hopefully this is resolved so people can still worship in an acceptable way to the community.
Report Post »Master_and_Commander
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:09am”An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.”
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
Report Post »country_hick
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:24am“forbid assembly of any nature w/out a permit …”
Gods I truly hope you just misstated what you were trying to say! Even in the Peoples Republic of Califormia I don’t believe they have given up that many of their RIGHTS yet. Have they?
Report Post »Tronix
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 4:17am@Ron_wa
I think you must read PALMPILOT comment. It’s a good explanation of the general view. I like living in society, and I like obeying the law. Mostly, I believe that if you live under God’s rules, you don’t have to be worried because you are fulfilling almost every human law. I mean, that is in a perfect world, because right now what we are seeing all over the world is crazy rules against our Judeo-Christian values, and against liberty and common sense. Little by little, we are allowing such laws, as PALM PILOT explains, so at the end, you are facing the problem to obey such laws.
We are not enough aware of that. And for me, if you told me something like this one year ago, I’d probably thought you were crazy or at least a paranoid fanatic. Even with the Muslims, a year ago, I was not aware of how much those guys hate West and how big is already the problem in each Western country.
Report Post »Finally, I do believe that Orange County has more important things to do with the money and the resources. I also think that in California there are so many liberties for unmoral things, but also against Christians or Jews. I also believe that is a BIG loss of freedom not being able to have a meeting like that in YOUR HOME. I mean, this is your house, your ground, your very own place where you are supposed to do whatever you want. And come on, a Bible Study is not bothering with noise any neighbor….if not, let me tell you that is a very strange Bible study.
Ron_WA
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 5:18am@ MASTER AND COMMANDER: I’ve no issue w/ Dr. MLK’s stand as long as one is willing to accept the penalties & condemnation of that community (& no one gets physically injured).
Again, I’m for worship but not in a way that is in open defiance of the law … there are very easily accessible ways to do it … & I even hope this generates acceptance of doing this in that location & community in some way (by possibly declaring this a house of worship).
Report Post »Ron_WA
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 6:07am@ COUTRY_HICK: I understand your point & it’s valid but what about the citizen who would choose to have a tavern, a gambling house, a half-way house, a brothel, a gun shop, an abortion clinic, a Sharia court or a porn studio in a given community in defiance of community laws? There are ways to live w/in the law & still serve one’s beliefs.
Report Post »mattbow46
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 7:39amRon_wa;
If the law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL then you have a duty to go against it. If the government makes a law that says that YOU can’t have ANY religious function in or on your own property then what is to stop them from further braking Constitutional Law and saying that people can no longer be intament with your spouse, or that all homes must put in surveillance cameras through out your home and property, or you can no longer speak ill of the government or any one with in the government.
Report Post »Once you start down that slippery slope there is no way back up, just remember once you take away one Constitutional Law the second is easier and the next is even easier.
Oldtimer2
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 12:58pmRon, Hitler started by winning over the “render unto Caesar” types too. Look into the history of the church in Germany. This is not a small move. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution, states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. What part of SHALL MAKE NO LAW is unclear? I guess I missed the part about some obscure city code being okay. Together with the Free Exercise Clause (”… or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”), these two clauses make up what are called the “religion clauses” of the First Amendment. These are pretty clear. Go back and read the whole context of the “render unto Caesar” passage.(Matt22, Mark 11) What was written on the coin in Jesus hand when He said what he did? (Tiberius Caesar Augustus, son of the DIVINE Augustus) What do you think the Son of God thought about Caesar’s claim to divinity? Since this happened on the Temple grounds where no idolatrous images were allowed,, why did they even have a coin in their pocket within the walls to hand Him in the first place? Either God rules or the state rules. Period. The middle ground is just an illusion of the state. Go along to get along aye? Go ahead and keep believing that applying for a permit to meet and worship God is okay but some of us are drawing the line in the sand and saying no more. We shouldn’t wait till it gets to the point it did in Germany.
Report Post »LittleMissPatriot
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 4:23pmThe community does not have the legal right to make a law requiring a permit for bible studies in your home!
Report Post »jpsays
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:59amOrange County is running out of money just like the rest of the country. Another government agency wasting your money. Funny thing though, big money area.
Report Post »This_Individual
Posted on September 20, 2011 at 11:56amI hope that Orange County doesn’t have to file for bankrupcy again.
Report Post »poweruser19
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:58amMore of that (only when it affects me bull sh$%) these yuppies and “so called religious people” are just a bunch of hipocrits.
Report Post »Never look at someone in need in downtown l.a. yet they call them selves cristians and religious.
Just a bunch of wolves in sheep skin.
The true meaning of being cristian is to always stand up for what is right and to help even when it hurts.
You cannot just pick when you want to be religious, you either have it or you dont.
I am vommiting inside thinking of this subject,“sorry you let this happen for so long” ……
Steve
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:11amUhh?
Report Post »wisehiney
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:15amYou don’t know these people. If you don’t fear God, you will.
Report Post »Steve
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:16ampoweruser19
Report Post »I‘d love to comment but I haven’t a clue what your talking about.
ZeitgeistBuster
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 3:53amHey POWERUSER…….. I HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO BE A HYPOCRITE !!!! That’s for me to work out bud…. NOT for you to judge and much much less to use the government to club me over the head because of your PERSONAL DISAPPROVAL.
GET A FREAKIN’ CLUE about what it means to live in a FREE COUNTRY. :)
Report Post »Phoenixsoulfire
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:56amSo much for freedom of religion. This is what they meant by separation of church and state not keeping God out of Government but keeping Government out of Gods house.
Report Post »kifeb221993
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:04amwere is that found (separation of church and state)? i dare you to find it!
Report Post »survivorseed
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:10amOutrage is only permissible if you are OK with your muslim neighbour or atheist neighbour having 50 of his closest friends over a few nights a week to study their beliefs.
This could all be solved if the valid permit was obtained in the first place.
Clifton
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:53amI don’t recognize my contry any more.
Report Post »chatmandu002
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:52amSo where is the ACLU. Probably hiding under the sheets with the rest of their liberal/progressive/socialist brethren.
Report Post »brooksh
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:00amIf it was a satan worship gathering, the ACLU would be defending them.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:10amOr, if it was a home-based mosque.
Report Post »IGotAComment
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:49pmThe ACLU is getting ready to defend the City vs the Christians.
This is a violation of their rights under the Constitution IMHO.
If the complaint is about taking up all the parking spaces or blocking driveways, that’s different … but this doesn’t sound like the case.
This is not an organization. I’m sure anyone is welcome, no membership, no dues. It’s the long arm of the expanding government reaching out further and further.
What about groups of persons meeting for political reasons … that illegal too.
Report Post »Phyliss
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:50amNext we’ll be fined for praying in our homes with our family before Thankgiving dinner :(
Report Post »pschlentz
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:47amThis is absolutely ridiculous!! What has happened to America?? I have never heard of such a thing.
Report Post »A Bible study is not a “Religious Organization”. It is a group of like-minded, God fearing, America loving people getting together to praise God.
AMEN!!!
Prosoldier
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:30amThank you! I thought I was the only one who recognized that one of the problems was the lack of an “organization”. Apparently 3 or more cannot visit regularly for any reason in that neighborhood, so I guess holidays and birthday parties are out of the question there as well? After all, they are a regular occurrence. Surely the law doesn‘t let those things slide in under the radar because they’re fair to EVERYBODY.
Report Post »jeffile
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 11:53amIt would be interesting if the police were allied to a large birthday party because people were worshipping a cake, singing birthday songs and conducting suspected illicit activity as kids are blindfolded and swinging sticks. Sounds very suspicious to me.
Report Post »Steve
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:47amSlowly and silently the very concept of religious freedoms (especially Christians) will be washed away from the fabric of our republic. It’s amazing. The founders would be disappointed in the country we are becoming.
Report Post »the hawk
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:05amYour right Steve Then theres no push back to teaching gender nutrality . iT’S really the FREE WILL !
Report Post »tHEY dont reconize the right to Free Will ! there are laws and You walk in line or else ! ! ! !
I dont reconise my country anymore———–Police State ! ! ! Were not Free…………………………………..
82dAirborne
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:46amBut if they threw a kegger with 100 people that would be ok????
I don’t know what the hell to say (for once in my life!) This country is going crazy.
Report Post »Californiasodbuster
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:12amI would say the liberal left is pushing their agenda a little too far.
Report Post »When you kick a sleeping dog too many times, it is going to bite you.
Hate to see it, but someone is going to get hurt.
wisehiney
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 2:19amWhoever complained was probably having and orgy with a hundred greasy obummer lovers. Guilty conscience will kill you.
Report Post »tishe
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:45amYou have to allow it! Ya all allowed it to happen. You humans, should have been fighting this issue, a very long time ago! (very long time) California, right? Yep, yup! Now, ya all sit back and yell foul? Waz up with that? Religious humans fight, ONLY, when their toes are stepped on. Remember the state you live in. Deal!
Report Post »MARCH4HIM
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:44amUn believable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »lord come quick…………!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
webrat55
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:42pmDon’t Listen To March Lord…Take Your Time Lord…..Gotta Few Things Goin’ On Down Here, Getting Interesting.
Report Post »CatCra
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:41amHere in America?! Oh my!
Report Post »the hawk
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 1:59amPlease add more info so we can help these people ! I ‘m not a big bible thumper and like to be left alone ,But they have the right to do this ! (parking and noise not a problem) then this is government harassment ! I tired off this police state stuff ! This must STOP ! kEEP having your bible studies till they put you in jail ! Then have one there, JUST LIKE JESUS would of ! ! God Bless ! !
Report Post »huckleberry, 1 ea.
Posted on September 19, 2011 at 8:52am@ the hawk – just like paul did!!!
Report Post »