Can Evangelical Doctor Help Save Life of Top Atheist Writer Christopher Hitchens?
- Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:03am by
Emily Esfahani Smith
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Christopher Hitchens, the atheist writer dying of esophageal cancer, has turned to an unlikely source as he tries to beat back death: evangelical doctor Francis Collins, the former director of the National Human Genome Project.
In that role, Collins was part of a team that mapped out the entire human DNA sequence, hopeful that doing so would bring scientists closer to cures for diseases like cancer. These days, Collins is testing out a new cancer treatment on his intellectual rival, Hitchens. Collins is the author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.
Hitchens, the author of God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, is set to be a “guinea pig in the new science of genome sequencing as a possible cure for cancer,” according to London’s Daily Telegraph.
“It is a rather wonderful relationship,” Hitchens says of his friendship with Collins. The two have publicly debated religion before and are good friends.
How will this experimental procedure work? First, Collins has already mapped out Hitchens’ entire DNA sequence. Then:
On each sample six billion DNA matches were run, in order to catalogue the mutations in the cancerous cells which had given Hitchens cancer of the oesophagus.
Then in the New Year Dr Collins found a mutation and went about tackling the DNA directly.
He discovered that a drug already existed to treat the particular mutation and now Hitchens takes just one tablet a day, rather than undergoing grueling chemotherapy.
“These are early stages, but in theory it should attack the primary site of the tumour,” Hitchens said.
For the sake of Hitchens–and the world of cancer treatment at large–here‘s hoping that Collins’ therapy works.
Watch Hitchens discuss cancer and god in this clip from CNN:
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Comments (345)
Kiwon
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:27amI wish writer Emily Esfahani Smith would resist the trend to refer to God as “god” and not the more referential “God.”
Report Post »NJONY
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:24amI will pray for his conversion.
Report Post »simple thought
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:19amGrandmaof5…….Ditto, well said lady
Report Post »Ozymandias
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:16amGod is “no respecter of men” so neither should the Christian or Physician be as well. It may be God‘s final attempt to show his mercy by getting the Atheist’s attention through his cancer. It may also be a lesson to the Physician of the remarkable healing power of faith through prayer. The Atheist should take note:
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
The Physician is to “do good to all men.” Although it’s not stated specifically in the scriptures, “God moves in mysterious ways.” When you overcome evil with good, regardless of the outcome, God is glorified and man made all the better.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:38pmAmen OZY….Amen
Report Post »BoilitDown
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:14amI prayed for him also.
Report Post »1956Danelectro
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:59pmPray constantly,use words if you have to, to para phrase StFrancis. We are to pray for everyone, no matter who or where. Thank you for your prayers. Gods Grace is infinite.
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:36pmIt is impossible to pray for everyone, so BELIEVE that God will TELL YOU who to pray for, such as: was it a coincidence that you came to this article about this man and someone on this board suggested that you pray for him? COINCIDENCE? No. Whenever the Holy Spirit leads (THAT SMALL STILL VOICE THAT puts a good thought in your mind), then PRAY. There are times when I will be doing something, washing clothes, mopping the floor, and all of a sudden, a person’s face will come before me in my mind, or I will suddenly think of someone. I KNOW that God has put it there for me to pray for them. STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING and pray for that person. You may be the 1 person who can prayerfully intervene on their behalf from a tragedy. Pray for this country, daily. Pray for your family constantly. This just means that when you are going about your business during the day and a thought pops into your head about someone, then stop and pray for them – not a long drawn out prayer, but talk to God with your heart and soul asking Him to protect that person, heal them, or save them. Ask HIM for mercy for that person. THIS IS DIVINE INTERVENTION. It may be YOUR prayer that gets that person saved, healed, or rescued. You won’t know until you get to Heaven just who you were responsible for – but you will find out. You may be the only one standing in the gap between that person you pray for and God.
We are to PRAY WITHOUT CEASING. Now, that does not mean we are to be on our knees every second of the day. It means, when the Holy Spirit leads us to pray, we are to do it, out of obedience and mostly out of LOVE for God and those He also loves (saved and unsaved). If every follower of Christ in this country would get down on their knees daily to pray for Obama and this government, THE USA WOULD GO BACK TO GOD and either Obama’s eyes would be opened to the truth and he will be set free to actually accept the real Jesus, OR, God will cast him out (because Obama refused God’s grace). IF EVERY CHRISTIAN WOULD PRAY FOR OBAMA, THIS COUNTRY WOULD GO BACK TO GOD ——-QUICKLY IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. If we are saved by faith, how much more can happen with that faith and ACTION? I challenge every single Christian on this board to pray for Obama, this man, Farrakhan, and those in power, for the next month – DAILY. Then, watch what happens. FAITH AND ACTION are very powerful things. God will be so moved by our prayers, you will see HIM in action. I really believe that.
Report Post »Bronco II
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:04amYes I to am praying for him regardless of how we feel about his views HE IS A CHILD OF GOD and just one person in his life that can make a difference and set the example of GODS LOVE we have to leave the rest up to GOD only he can change hearts and minds.I do believe in miracles and I believe GOD works in ways we may never understand but his ways aren‘t our ways and our ways aren’t his ways.GOD OPENS DOORS NO MAN CAN SHUT AND SHUTS DOORS NO MAN CAN OPEN.
Report Post »heavyduty
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:45amIt sounds to me that Hitchen’s is still a non-believer, and he is setting up this Doctor to take the fall for his death. If the experiment fails then Hitchen’s will just state that “see there is no God” because He couldn’t save me. If they experiment succeeds then he will leave God out of it and state that science cured him. So what is the incentive for God to save this man? Because God loves him, but unless Hitchen’s accepts God as his Creator, then even if the experiment succeeds then he will still lose the battle.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:01am“So what is the incentive for God to save this man?”
This question seems to imply that God never does anything unless he can get something out of it. I’m not so sure that is consistent with the sacrificial love I see demonstrated by God in Scripture. By his own admission Jesus expended tears and longing for Jerusalem to no avail. Agape love is its own reward. God loves us, even when we are his enemies, because it is his nature to love. If God were to perform a miracle on Hitchens in the hope that he would repent it is still not a miracle wasted. Hitchens may not see it, but those with faith will.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:18pmills
There is not one thing that can happen on Earth that can change my mind about wheather there is a God or not. I have already made that decision and have paid dearly for it. I have lost everything I ever held dear. I do not hold my life dear so therefore I can’t lose anything that will affect my belief. This is how it must be. Have you believed in the true God at no personal cost?
Report Post »Guerrino_P
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:38pmHey HEAVYDUTY do you take too much insulin?
Report Post »fountains
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:43amDr. Collins is treating Hitchins by way of his unique DNA. We are all children of God. Each of us unique individuals. I pray the intellectual side of Christopher Hitchens humble himself to realize that God loves each of us as his children. I pray he will open his heart and let God in.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:46pmNot to be argumentative but we are NOT all children of God. We are all creation of God. But children of God are only ever ascribed to those who follow, obey and love Him in faith. Jesus even called me children of their father the devil. See John 8:44
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:00pm…called men………. not me ha ha
Report Post »LadyIzShy
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:43amI hope it works I will pray that the hand of God guides the DR
Report Post »bluntforce
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:41amMaybe Gaiya, the earth mother can save him. After making a career out of bashing God and calling everyone who believed in Him a fool, Hitchens now turns toward a human being to save his life? Close, but no Cee-Gar, Mr. Atheist!! Don’t forget to pack your swim trunks and some spf 5000. I hear The Lake of Fire gets pretty hot….
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:05amGod still loves him and is still waiting, even unto his very last breath, to call upon Him to save him. Even the most arrogant can be saved, even at the very last moment. Never underestimate the power of almighty God. If I were you, I would read the word of God thoroughly before you start making assumptions about HIS power. You do not know God and by your arrogant remark, you may never with that attitude.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:05pm@bluntforce;
spf 5000 – really good!
It is interesting to note the irony of an atheist turning to an evangelical doctor in his time of need. Perhaps a metaphor. It is also interesting to note that one tries healing body and spirit, while the other tries killing faith and hope.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:45pmThe wages of sin is death not everlasting life in a lake of fire the Bible says. And to back that up I give one more evidence God said man has Two choices , what are they? Read this “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him might not 1. perish but have 2. everlasting life. Where ever you get this everlasting life in hell fire and damnation does not fit these statements. One of them is wrongly intrepreted. No offence intended.
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 8:59pmSo, P C BE DAMNED….you ascribe to the same beliefs that Rob Bell proclaims (at least that’s what I gather from your statement)? And that belief you have is based upon just the one scripture you could remember? Try again.
Report Post »flyoverbob
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:39amI am not a very religious,but I beleive in God and I do not beleive that he punishes people.I think
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:59amFree will. You will punish yourself. If you have a choice between a lemon and a pear, which will you choose? If you choose the lemon, then whose fault is that when it makes you sick? That is not God’s fault. But, there will always be a choice. God does not want us to serve Him against our will. What would be the good in that? Do you want your wife or Husband or child to love you because they HAVE TO or because they want to? There are consequences to EVERYTHING. God has warned us for over 2000 years what those consequences would be if we choose to live a life of sin under Satan. God will NOT save any man if he does not accept His son Jesus (John 3:16) – PERIOD. That is not God’s punishment for you. THAT IS THE PUNISHMENT your FREE WILL HAS CHOSEN. Stop blaming God for everything you decide on. That is a trick of Satan’s to make you believe that God would never send anyone to hell. That is false. You send yourself to hell by not accepting God’s grace and salvation. But, he will follow you all the days of your life, until the very end, waiting for you to come to HIM. If you do not, then it is your own choice. How much more clearer do you want it?
Report Post »Thun
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:28amI will remember Hitch in my prayers and you too FOB. Bill Wiese says it beautifully IMO.
“If you were to go to the most expensive home in the country, knock on their door, and say to them, “Hi, I’m moving in with you.” What do you think they would say? No. You would not expect them to allow you to just move in. You don’t know them and have no relationship with them. Yet, people go throughout their entire lives and want nothing to do with God, reject that Jesus is the Son of God, don’t go to church, don’t want to read the Bible or learn about Him, and yet…. When they die – they expect to move into His house. Who is the unreasonable one? You never made God your Father even though He tries throughout your lifetime to reach out to you. When you receive His Son, He then becomes your Father, and you may now move into His house. Until you receive Jesus, God is your Creator, but not your Father (Gal. 3:26; John 1:12, 8:44; Rom. 9:7-8; John 17:9; Eph. 1:5).”
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:20pmThun:
Report Post »Wonderfully said! HALLELUJAH!
hitchens_rules
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:43pmThun, Hitch knows that when he dies, he’ll be exactly where he was bnefore he was conceived – no where. To understand that fact is a wonderfully comforting thought. You are free.
Report Post »JustaThought
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:39amThe Miracle is in the story itself. And the question is not, “Will the patient will be saved?” The question is, “Will his soul be saved?”.
Report Post »ropati
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:36amCHRISTOPHER.
Yes, God IS great and can heal your body. The questions are do you believe it and will He?
Report Post »ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:46amFunny that god can’t find the time to heal all those kids around the world being eaten alive from the inside by parasites.
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:10pmScienceIsNotEvil:
Report Post »Jesus said that the poor (this would include the hungry and destitute) would always be with us. WHY? Because Satan does have dominion over the earth for yet a little more time. YES, God does intervene, BUT NOT WITHOUT BEING ASKED – BY SOMEONE, such as those of us who PRAY. So, the next time you see that child who is hungry, will you help or let someone else do it? And if you can’t help for some reason, CAN YOU PRAY FOR THAT CHILD OR PERSON? If that is all you can do, then do that, but stop blaming God for NOT doing anything especially when YOU are not doing anything. If you were busy doing God’s work, more could be done. It is those people who complain the loudest who expect someone else to do the work. It is those who complain the loudest who do NOT know God. Need I say more? I didn’t think so. God wants you because He loves you, but he will never force you. I would suggest that if you want to help, start with my finding a good Bible-teaching church, get a good KJV or appropriate Bible and LEARN THE WORD OF GOD. Know who God is really is before you ASSUME you know Him. It is Satan who kills and destroys. NOT GOD. Man just watch and do nothing but allow Satan to do it. Got 2 feet, 2 hands, and a mouth? Then walk to the nearest church, put money into the Missions for the poor program and then THANK GOD you helped just 1 more person. OR, sit here on this board and do nothing expecting someone else to do it for you. They will get the reward and you will not.
BlazerBlazer
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:13pmSCIENCEISNOTEVIL… Jesus healed everyone that “came” to Him and asked for healing! Healing is not evidence that God exists or not… When we eat,drink contaminated water or food we get sick… That isn‘t God’s fault. Did you notice Christian based countries seem to have the healtiest conditions… why? Knowledge of God and His son and crying out to Him changes many things even for a nation… The Old Testament gave the Jews instructions for their food, clothing and hygiene which gave them health for hundreds of years.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:37pmscienceisn
You do know that for many decades scientists have been rejecting those who find anything that disagrees with the big picture. And who postulated this big picture? For a long time museums had what was called opart or out of place artifacts. This evidence was hidden as it did not fit the big picture and the scientists were blackballed and could get no reconition or papers published. Hell have you never watched the history channel and seen all the things that they had in the past that we are just now finding out about, it was not because we didn’t have evidence. It was because these scientists were just men, many little men without any backbone. Also in your studies you will finally find out about all the fake evidence introduced to prove evolution. It will astound you. I think the dog may turn for you.
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:06am@SCIENCEISNOTEVIL — I KNOW! Why doesn’t God heal those amputees right up! While we’re on the topic, why must evil exist? Why didn‘t God just take our free will away to ensure that there is no evil caused by man’s actions? What about natural evils, why did God have to put the laws of nature in place, laws that have caused so much destruction? Stupid laws of nature! I hate you sky-daddy!
Ahem, at any rate…science may not be evil, but neither is philosophy or theology. Given the old “amputees” canard (this time in the form of parasites), I’m guessing you actually know very little about the former discipline (in spite of your fetishistic attention to it) and next to nothing about the latter two.
Report Post »teahugger
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:28amHitchens says the pill will attack the primary tumor…what about the metastatic sites? He’s still a goner without a miracle.
Report Post »Amica
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:35pmYes, he is likely a goner. But what is learned from his treatment is a step in the process of the treatment of cancer. Sometime in the future it’ll be figured out.
Report Post »Berticus33
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:28amOnly the Lord can soften his heart. May the Lord do so while healing Mr. Hitchens.
Report Post »Aiser
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:27amFrances Collins angers many of the “new” atheists to no end.
Rightly so. He is one of the two scientist whom participated in the successful human genome project. A convert from Atheist to Christianity. He is one of the greatest scientist of our times, a great guy ( unlike most new atheists) and a good Christian. I would advise to read his book “The language of God”.
Report Post »Jezreel
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:23amCancer can be a disease of anger and bitterness. For him to have it in the place where his speaking come from also is not a surprise.
Report Post »Not in all cases but I believe my own cancer was the result of anger and bitterness. I had to repent and confess and I have been cancer free since 2002.
It is not odd for the parts of our body that we have been abusing to get cancer. For example, people who are lascivious and indulge in sex outside marriage, have cancers of their reproductive organs. It seems like judgment comes upon the parts that they have abused and misused.
For people to get angry at God because he is not the way that you think he should be is very unwise. I am glad that I am not god. I would be having people go up in puffs of smoke and disappear from the face of the earth, just like that.
ginsberg
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:28pmJezreel, hitchens is not a hateful person. Also he was a heavy smoker, which seems a more likely cause of his illness. Note that this article says hitchens is a close friend of the doctor who is a believer…it isnt like hitchens hates believers.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:00pm@ GINSBERG………….Hello friend. I also want you to know that I have been praying for you as well. I don’t say this in any way to agitate or anger you, but just to know that I hold nothing against you or things you have posted.
Report Post »Amica
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:31pmWow, unbelievable. Blame the patient, do you? Repent? Is that all my husband has to do for his third brain tumor to go away? Two surgeries and cycle after cycle of chemotherapy, wasted time and money? He is the least angry and bitter person I have ever known, and has nothing at all to repent of (although, he would say different) and is spiritually prepared to pass on to the next life. Between he and I, and according to your thinking, I’m the one who should have any number or cancers. Seriously, how dare you??? Keep your smug, self-righteous, morally “superior” attitude and utterly unfounded opinion to yourself.
I can‘t believe how much I’ve allowed you to piss me off. Don’t bother responding to this post, I refuse to have a dialogue with you.
Report Post »Amica
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:51pmI read this story for a bit of uplifting news. It’s good to know the two men of such opposing beliefs can have respect for each other and be friends. Fortunately for Mr. Hitchins (and anyone else with cancer) Dr. Collins doesn’t hold your beliefs that the patient is to blame for his or her condition, and he doesn’t base the need for treatment on belief in God.
I’ve also enjoyed the back and forth discussion on this story, I don’t agree with all of the opinions, but I never expect to. Some comments are stupid, but none have touched a nerve and pissed me off like yours. Such backward, dark-ages thinking is exactly what brings contempt to any person who believes in God from people who don’t.
Seriously, I’m having a really hard time thinking straight. Grrrrrrr.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 5:08pmAmica,
Something to consider,
Many people in here do not really “read” the articles, they skim them and then jump into the fray. This is just a sport to many, they do not care if they are right or wrong. Others are merely expressing their own views, even though they may have nothing to do with the story.
You bring up a great point, these two men are indeed friends. They have debated in public and have probably also had private discourse. They respect each other. I can tell you firsthand, through his own words, that Dr. Habermas and Anthony Flew also had such a personal relationship. Both men legitimately liked each other and enjoyed the debate. They were close friends. In the scholastic world it is mostly like this, it is only in the general public that you find the hatred. It is mostly like this in politics too, what many readers here may find distasteful is that even the most militant congressmen will shake hands and sit down to eat together while discussing their private lives. What ordinary people need to learn is to keep things on different levels. In the same sense, you should let the comment made above go. It is a foolish discussion board, who really cares? Go on with your life, don’t let it ruin your day.
Report Post »Amica
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 5:52pmTrolltrainer;
Thanks for your comments. Normally, I don’t let comments on this board get to me. Mostly, I find them entertaining and amusing, and they often help me to solidify and confirm what I do believe.
I guess jezreel caught me in a moment of weakness, and this is a sensitive subject for me for obvious reasons.
Jezreel didn’t ruin my day, just put me in a bad mood for a little while. Better now!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 9:19pm@ AMICA….feel no shame!!!!!! we have all reacted to painful things in our life it is understandable for anyone that has walked through those difficult things. Your humility in your last post is commendable and speaks highly of your character. And I know my friend TROLL would agree and feel the same way. I hope your family (husband) receives physical healing. I will pray for you and your family as I lay my head on the pillow tonight. God Bless.
Report Post »Amica
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 9:57pmWatch;
Report Post »Thanks! I know prayers help, and I know I’m truly blessed.
TRUSTNO MAN
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:23amIt’s “God”! His unbelief is still a belief and he can WILLINGLY (there’s that pesky “Free Will” thingy again) believe in nothing or something. We shall see just how stubborn he truely is when “THE BIG DAY” finally arrives…..a day WE ALL SHALL SEE! I will pray for Mr. Hitchens to save himself from his own mouth…..God Willing!
Report Post »jstan442
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:23amso now hitchens is looking for God?!? if he is genuine in his feelings God will answer–God knows the heart–if he still thinks God is a joke on humans then he will find this out also after death
Report Post »mrsmileyface
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:22amGOD answers all prayers. And what Snow said.
Report Post »RJLittle
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:15amHears praying that God will bring healing to Mr. Hitchens not only for his personal health and possible cures for cancer, but mainly for the sole of Mr. Hitchens.
Report Post »hitchens_rules
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 5:14pmRJLittle, why not both of Hitch’s soles. The man does have two feet afterall.
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:10amFaith enables the happening of true miracles.
Report Post »Guerrino_P
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:08amI’ve always like Hitchens. I recommend his book, ‘God is not great’. It’s a good read.
Report Post »Guerrino_P
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:36amDEMOCRATGIRL
It sounds like you didn’t read his book.
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:01pmAll secular works will burn, but God’s words WILL determine our fate and will last forever.
I never read anything that is NOT sanctioned by God. But, I DO KNOW THE WORD OF GOD. DO YOU? And THAT is what you and I will be judged by…..not by some earthly man’s vain wisdom or selfish views. EVERY SINGLE WORD YOU AND I UTTER, including those on this board, will be judged by God. SO, WEIGH YOUR WORDS WISELY before you decide you think you know who I am.
Report Post »Guerrino_P
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:36pmA nut?
Report Post »Sense and Sensibility
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:29pmdemocratgirl – You never read anything that is not sanctioned by God? How do you know whether or not The Blaze or Guerrino_P’s (or any other person’s) post has been sanctioned by God? How I am to know that your posts have been sanctioned by God? Are you ready for your secular works to be burned?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:59pmNo offense dem girl, but where you calling down fire as you typed that? You are pointing your finger at others in later posts, claiming that they do not know God. Do you? Do you think Jesus would want you to be so self-righteous? Just sayin’…
Report Post »ISeeDanger.com
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:07amKind of funny how most people put off “God” until the “end” or until we are times of crisis or great strife. I hope we can follow this story and see how it develops.
http://www.ISeeDanger.com
Report Post »Catharsis
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:32amI’m am pretty sure that Hitchens has no delusions about his end, and has accepted it. I very much doubt he will convert.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:49pm@ CATHARSIS…………..I will continue and have been praying for you. Again I don’t say this to agitate you. But being an atheist at one time I feel drawn to pray for those who deny God. I hope your heart is softened one day my friend.
Report Post »GONESURFING
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:47pmThe fool has said in his heart that there is no God.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:07pm@ GONESURFING..true enough and I am a rehabilitated fool, ha ha !!!!!
Report Post »hitchens_rules
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:33pmHitchens will not cave to superstition any more than any of you will start claiming belief in Santa Claus when you‘re at life’s end. It will not happen and for good reason. The man is a free thinker and he is brilliant. It’s funny how all you religious types can never be happy with your own belief, you have to make sure everyone else believes it too. You don’t see rational unsuperstitious people hounding the dying about giving up their delusions, but look out when it comes to religious types and their zeal for trying to score points by harrassing people on their death beds to believe as they do. It’s disgusting.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:51pmI .like how it always boils down to intelligence. Hitchens is brilliant, but the doctor trying to save him is a dork because he believes in God. Did you ever stop to wonder why you are so much smarter than the billions of believers out there who need a “crutch” like God because they do not have enough self control to regulate their own morals like you can? Has that ever occured to you? That you are surely that much smarter than 70-80% of all Americans, all the people you encounter day to day. Why, they are all flat earthers who should go back to the dark ages and hang some witches or something! But not you, Hitchens_Rules, you are so much smarter than I am, than even Francis Collins, the former director of the National Human Genome Project. Why, we are nothing but superstitious fools compared to your dazzling brilliance!
Or…Maybe we know something YOU do not!
Just maybe…
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 6:07pmHitchens rules
You are an ignorant man and this is one thing you are ignorant of. Christians are usually trying to help people avoid bad things. Like waking a sleeping man with screams of Fire fire. In the end the shocked sleeper is glad he was so rudely awakened. Christians are also commanded to spread this saving truth so they go and teach even thought hey have to meet nasty rude idiots like you almost daily. Don’t think you are exceptional even as an idiot your are just average.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 9:13pm@ HITCHENS……….My friend reason with me for a bit. If you loved someone, I mean really loved someone and you knew that perhaps lets say their drinking, or smoking, or their lifestyle in some way was bringing them pain and leading them to an early grave and that by their choices they were hurting others in their life, their kids lets say. Would you think it disgusting to go to that person and try to talk to them about their problem and how they are destroying themselves and harming others in their life? Neither should what we do when sincere been seen as anything but trying to love people by sharing with them what we believe to be the truth. If they choose to reject what we are saying then they certainly can even though that would sadden me. However, if we are right they will know that we have cared enough for them to share what the truth was and did what we could to help them to see it.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 1:38amwatchtheotherhand,
Very good, I think you are starting to get it. Thanks.
I’m watching you, hoping for the best, : )
Report Post »Bearfoot
Old Truckers
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 11:45amHitchens, like everyone else just wants to save his life. Too bad he does not recognize that his vain life is a gift from the God that he rejects.
Satan said in Job 2: 1 Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before Jehovah.
2 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Just where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 3 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad? Even yet he is holding fast his integrity, although you incite me against him to swallow him up without cause.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. 5 For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”
6 Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “There he is in your hand! Only watch out for his soul itself!” 7 So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah and struck Job with a malignant boil from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8 And he proceeded to take for himself a fragment of earthenware with which to scrape himself; and he was sitting in among the ashes.
Notice Satan said; “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.” He implied that a man would do anything to save his life. In Hitchen’s case, even seek help from a believer in the God he rejected.
Report Post »Old Truckers
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 11:59amSatan’s words are in verse 4-5 only.
Report Post »NickDeringer
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:06amWe are still praying for you, Christopher whether you want us to or not.
Report Post »Ruler4You
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:10amFTA: Can Evangelical Doctor Help Save Life of Top Atheist Writer Christopher Hitchens?
Not against his will he can’t.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:15amHis brother Peter is a Christian and a Conservative.
I wouldn’t be surprised if his willful resistance to God breaks down at the end. He protests too much. God likes them hot or cold. The lukewarm are hard to convert because they don’t care enough. Christopher has never been lukewarm.
grandmaof5
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:22amThis should be held up as a wonderful example of two minds, on opposite ends of the spectrum, working for the good of one. In the end we will all die, but what is important is how we live our lives – filled with anger and hostility toward our fellow man, or caring and helping our fellow man. Angry people cannot be happy people, their “cause” is deluding them into a false sense of acceptance. In the end they are expendable.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:35am@ISLES………..Amen very good point brother. I agree, in many instances the staunchest atheist will have a time when they lay down their arms against God and become great servants in His kingdom. (ie Richard Morgan, Antony Flew, Lee Strobel, Carol Everett, William O’Hare, Watchtheotherhand [although I am in no way comparing my insignificant little self to these people])
Report Post »joe conservative
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:39amGreat comment Nick, I couldn’t agree more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=619wI12Ky20
Report Post »DagneyT
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:11amHopefully in the process he can also save his soul. Pray that he has a “come to Jesus” moment! His eternal life is what is important.
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:20amThere are no atheists in foxholes. And, Jesus meets us where we’re at. Maybe we are seeing the beginning of Mr Hitchens becoming a new man, body and soul. A new man who will use his God-Given gifts to Glorify God for the rest of his life. I Pray This Is True, In Jesus Name!
Report Post »mtnclimberjim
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:24amISLES…well said
Report Post »Evileye
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:26amHe might save his Soul
Report Post »But not his Body
Advanced Esophageal Cancer is rarely survivable
TexasCommonSense
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:32amYes, praying for him indeed. I will be praying for his wellness and spiritual guidance.
I don’t understand the title of his book: “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything”. Mr. Hitchens needs to separate the belief if God from religion. Religion is a cultural system developed by man. Man is inherently flawed; therefore, many religions are also flawed. Religion has nothing to do with existence of God. God exists and is the creator of all, even without religion.
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:17pm@ texascommonsense
I Agree! Mr Hitchens is right on that one point, Religion does poison everything. Unfortunately, too many people believe that Jesus and religion are one and the same.
They don’t realize that Jesus speaks out very strongly against religion ie: Matthew 23. Jesus Words are heated and harsh with righteous anger — Scathing!
In Galatians, the Apostle Paul pulls no punches in his words against religion: “… Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” ~ Galatians 1:7,8
Religion is an evil that runs against everything Jesus Is. Religion claims to speak for Jesus. Nothing can be farther from the Truth than religion. The Truth Can Be Found In The Bible — It’s Right There For Everyone.
Report Post »SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:21pmI think animal sacrifices are called for here.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:01pmAt one time I respected this mans opinion then he decided to refute God. I myself have an I Q that was measured at 165 to ?. I am not interested in bragging. I only bring it up as pertaining to this discussion. I too questioned God and I found more evidence for God in large than I did against Him. This has left me in a puzzlement about hitchens. I totally have lost respect for his opinion as there was no need to attack God as the human condition is more affected by our faulty natures and ignorance than the true teachings of the true God. I speak of Jesus father as revealed in his work the Bible KJV. Yes that specific. Thanks and I truely hurt for Hitchens as he has so much more potential that is being lost because of a stupid fight with God almighty which all who take Him on only make His case.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:10pmYou know Hitchens is smart enough that he may have a plan to finally at the end pronounce his acceptance of God as this story has drawn much attention to this ancient question of God or no God. Hitchens is no Fool. He could die maintaining and it would only prove he had only risen to the level of intelligence that he found himself smarter than God. You know like our kids who at 15 thru 30 think they know everything but magically after thirty start seeing how mom and dad were not so dumb after all.
Report Post »I can’t believe Hitchens has not found the evidence lying everywhere pronouncing God is alive and well. He is just to smart to have missed it. Hell its there for the simple minded.
Gates
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:10pmThere is a point where God allows our heart to harden. And Christopher Hitchens seems to have reached that point. He has also made it his lifes work to lead people down the path to eternal damnation. I would not want to answer to a just God for that, would you?
It’s one thing to pray for his salvation but quite another to ignore his teachings and the damage done. He even said NOT to believe anything he might say to the contrary as he is dying and full of drugs. This man carries such hate in his heart it is almost beyond belief. Pray for those who have been influenced by this man before you pray for him.
Report Post »SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:14pm@P C BE DAMNED
With all sincerity, can you please discuss the evidence you have found in favor of God. I truly have an open mind and welcome any new evidence presented to me.
CatB
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:14pm@NICK …
no athiests in foxholes? … perhaps Mr Hitchens is having some revelations .. and yes praying for him.
Report Post »Showtime
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:26pmIf Collins can save Hitchens’s life, I hope it makes Hitchens a believer!
We’re praying for you, Christopher!
Report Post »Alvin691
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:30pmThank you Nick. I couldn’t have said it better.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:16pm@ PC BE DARNED……………all I can say about Hitchens intelligence is …………….
1 Corinthians 1
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[d]
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:22pmseason
I don’t have the time and I am not sure you are sincere. I will tell you it is every where literally. It is under the microscope and in the telescope. It is in written pages of history and in the human condition. I have never been to France but I believe there is a France because of evidence. Do your own work as you will appreciate it more. Besides I think you are looking for a fight. I will pick my own fights thank you very much. If I have misjudged the situation well excuse me.
Report Post »Ditto Head
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:31pm“…drowning in powerlessness…”
Hitchens has captured the human condition in these three words. We are powerless in this existence, which is why we have faith in the first place. Concerning the “wretched carcass”, I love how Peter describes the earthly body as a “tabernacle”, and in Heaven, we shall dwell in a “mansion”. I hate tents, but love a conventionally built stucture. Looking forward to my corruption-proof body. Hope Hitchens will swallow his pride and make a confession of Faith before it’s too late.
Report Post »Ditto Head
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:40pm@ P C
Ironic how he’s dubbed himself “reason”. You can’t reason with atheists. They don’t want to believe. If they were sincerely searching for God, they’d find him, if nowhere else, than in the smile on a baby’s face. Julian Huxley basically let the cat out of the bag when he said “[I supposed the reason] that we leapt at the Origin [of Species] is that the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores.”
Report Post »GONESURFING
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:46pmWish him well, and hope he has stopped smoking.
The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 2:57pm@ SEASON…………Not that I can go into all the information here, but trying starting with investigations about the evidence for the resurrection of Christ. Everything really hinges on that point. If he didn‘t resurrect then there is no hope and Jesus wasn’t who he claimed to be. I hope you truly are sincere because I used to be where you are. Why didn’t the Pharisees who wanted to squash the“Way” have the ability to just prove the resurrection false? Don’t forget there were many eye witnesses at different places and times. It should have been easy to disprove the assertion of a resurrected Jesus if in fact it was not true. For this very reason many that opposed Jesus and his teachings became believers because of their eyewitness of the risen Christ. Paul was with several on the road to Damascus and his dramatic change in life and beliefs as evidenced by his fruit certainly indicates something of significance happened that day. Not to mention the miracles the apostles performed that could have easily been debunked and proven false given the large number of witnesses and the nature of the miracles performed. They were all eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ and could never be shown to be falsely stating anything by the religious leader or courts of the day as the stood trial and scrutiny consistently.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 3:25pmWatchtheotherhand,
It is properly called the empty tomb argument and Dr. Gary Habermas has done more work with this proof than anyone else. In fact, it was in debating him that Anthony Flew finally had to at least admit to a creator though he never did become a Christian (that I am aware of).
The argument basically centers around the question, “where is the body?” No sane scholar disputes Jesus of Nazareth was real and was crucified by the Romans. Jews, Romans, and Christians all acknowledge this. The problem is, where did the body go? The ONLY “logical” answer is that the disciples “stole” it. But that flies in the face of the evidence that the apostles all died for what they believed to be true; that Jesus rose from the grave. All except John, son of Zebedee, of course, though he certainly suffered for this belief also.
The empty tomb argument is irrefutable. Does this mean it has to be accepted? No…Of course not…But there are no valid arguments to it. It is a very indepth argument of which I have not even started to touch, anyone interested should go to the sources, check Habermas’ website, he has written some great books on this, probably the one to start with is “Case for the Resurrection of Jesus.” As Watchtheotherhand mentions, this argument is central to everything. It proves the Bible is inerrant, because if Jesus endorses the Bible, especially Genesis, and if God allowed Him to be Resurrected, then the Bible MUST be true. This also proves the Trinity. Jesus claimed to be God. God would not allow a liar to rise.
It is a fascinating study, even for the nonbeliever.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:05pm@ TROLL….thanks for the info on Antony Flew was going off of memory long time ago and couldn’t remember if he became christian or just stated a belief in God. thanks TROLL good info. on the website was going off of memory on the points as it has been a while since I have reviewed the actually arguments. Obviously should review those as a refresher course. :-) God bless friend !!
Report Post »avenger
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:11pmwhy not..this could be a moment of redemption….do you not love it when these radicals reach the moment..“the end” !
Report Post »Taquoshi
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:13pmSeasonOfReason Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:14pm
@P C BE DAMNED
With all sincerity, can you please discuss the evidence you have found in favor of God. I truly have an open mind and welcome any new evidence presented to me.
Season,
If you do truly have an open mind, the evidence will present itself in due time. There’s nothing that I or anyone else can say to persuade you, because that is God’s job. However, you might want to track down a copy of C.S. Lewis’ biography, Surprised by Joy. Lewis‘ moment of revelation came while he was riding in the sidecar of his brother’s motorcycle enroute to Whipsnade Zoo. Lewis was a logistician of the highest order and one of the best apologists of the 20th century.
I’ll be praying for you.
Report Post »hitchens_rules
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:19pmPray to your heart’s content, it won’t alter the outcome one way or the other. It‘s particularly ugly when some religious types say they’re going to pray for another when they’re making the statement in a mean-spirited way, but it happens all the time. Hitchens has done immeasurable good in his lifetime bringing people to the truth and freeing the indoctrinated from their burdens, and tens of thousands of us have thanked him for his efforts, so he’ll die a happy man, hopefully in the distant future. We need brilliant minds like Hitch’s more than ever.
Report Post »Svt4Him
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:21pmGod resists the proud, gives grace to the humble. So what exactly are your praying if God is resisting someone?
Not that I disagree with prayer, but sometimes it becomes a buzz word with little thought into what to pray. Pray God humbles him? Maybe that is what’s happening, I don’t know.
Report Post »hitchens_rules
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:23pmHitchens will never believe in god or any other mythical entity. All of you people should at least read his book “God is not Great” before you waste time making silly statements about him here.
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:24pmI‘m sorry for anyone who lives and doesn’t know the PEACE and JOY (even in the midst of trials and tribulations) of knowing our GOD and His Son Jesus and Mother Mary, all the other Angels and Saints who have lived this (tough) life and made all the mistakes (the Saints) that can be made but found their way to GOD. Maybe I wouldn‘t like God either if I’d been taught some of the stuff that’s out there, seen some of the junk that Hitchens has seen ( WW II) etc. But I believe with all my heart that JESUS never leaves us alone…the last second of the last breath can bring JESUS to us…and since GOD created us all and LOVES us all…we can pray for and love others.
I have a problem with the counterfeiters (the Islamic Cult) who USE the knowledge of God against God and to enslave people (GOD doesn’t enslave anyone)…but Atheists? I’ve never met a real one.
Report Post »God’s Blessings Christopher…just as we’ve been forgiven and loved, we can love others.
hitchens_rules
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:41pmPat Henry and others, Hitchens doesn’t have an issue with “god” he simply knows one doesn’t exist. Just as many of you know that Zeus doesn‘t exist or that unicorns don’t exist.
Report Post »Uncle Crusty
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 4:57pmChris, I will pray for your FULL recovery, no strings attached, that is the LOVE OF JESUS, even though you blaspheme against Him, and have made a lot of lost souls follow you. But somehow I believe down deep, you have questions about the Almighty, for you really don’t know everything about everything sir! I would like to ask you a question however, how could you deny Jesus being the Son of God, when he is written about emperically in history, or Rome, of Greece, and even is in the Q’aran, much less the Bible? I do hope one day, before you die, you accept Jesus into your life and tell the world about it, prior to you becoming a vegetable.
Report Post »Uncle Crusty
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 5:08pmSEASON of reason – did you know that Jesus Christ was written about in Roman, Greek and Islamic history, not just the Bible? All of his feats are there for you to read, and he did die for our sins, he shed his blood for you too, if only you could believe in Him, transcending man made reason. The Bible did not just appear out of thin air, and in 1947 the Dead Sea scrolls were found, backing up what is in the Bible. No one can have proof of anything, not even the big bang, it is a belief of a higher divinity that serves one every day. For you see there really is no such thing as Hope, because that too is based on a belief, is it not? Everything you do and say is based on something but one just cant quite put their finger on it…and that my friend is the mystery of life. I won‘t be able to provide you with your so called ’proof’, because I really don’t have to, you have to look deep down inside yourself and ask the question, what if I am right, and you are wrong? I only have to be .000000000000000000001% right to prove my point, but in your case you have to be 100% correct, and we all know about certainties in life, there aren’t any, unless you believe in something higher than yourself. God Bless, and Jesus does love you too, just like he loves Chris Hitchens, the athiest high priest himself.
Report Post »Uncle Crusty
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 5:18pm@Hitchens_Rules, see there you go bashing the Christian for speaking his/her free will, and yet you can speak your mind without any of us bashing you. Yes, I will pray for you to come to Jesus Christ as well, and there is nothing you can do about it, nada, zilch, zero. Yet, am I here to convert you to Christianity, no sir or madam, I merley pray for the wretch that mocks our God in Heaven. One day in the not too distant future, you will face your maker, and then you will regret your man made reason against God. Again, not trying to scare you, or make you do anything you don’t want to do. May Jesus Christ be with you my son. Amen.
Report Post »Uncle Crusty
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 5:20pmFor ALL of you athiests out there, and there are a lot of you, there is a book you should read…Halley’s Bible Handbook, it is still in print. Try to read that, get through it, and digest it, enough said.
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 7:25pm@hitchens_rules
What causes you to think that you can speak so absolutely about what Mr Hitchens will be believing that last second before he breathes his last breath? Just so ya know — none of us can speak absolutely about what another believes or doesn’t believe. Only God Knows Each Of Our Hearts! Another thing — you and Mr Hitchens are really in a better place than you think you are. You’re Not Lukewarm! [Revelation 3:15,16] Maybe step back and be a little quiet for a while and stop trying to speak over what’s going on in your heart — that God Shaped Vacuum won’t go away. Maybe you should listen. Break out your Bible, open it, and let Jesus speak to you through his Living Word.
Hopefully someday you will realize that Christians aren’t wanting to argue with you and Mr Hitchens. Christians know what lies ahead for those who don’t choose Jesus. Christians don‘t want anyone hearing their own blasphemous words echoing through their minds when they are standing before Almighty God and realizing it’s too late. Eternal decisions need to be made this side of Eternity.
God Bless You and Mr Hitchens! You Are Both Being Prayed For! Jesus Loves You Both!
@unclecrusty — Very Well Said!
Report Post »sodizzy
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:27pmThat’s right!
Report Post »sodizzy
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:29pmDear Hitchens Rules,
If God can turn me around he can turn ANYONE around, even C. Hitchens!!
Report Post »bullcrapbuster
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 11:41pmI have never seen this man look the least bit happy or cheerful or heard him say anything optimistic or uplifting. He has always appeared to me to be half dead.
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:09am@SEASONOFREASON – It appears that your central objection is evidential in nature. If you are truly open to evidence for God’s existence as you claim, be it logical, cosmological, philosophical, mathematical, historical, or otherwise, I would like to ask you one simple question:
What type of evidence would you consider?
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:15am@HITCHENS_RULES
No offense, but God is Not Great is a singularly laughable book. Not that Hitchens is a bad writer, mind you…he is a fine wordsmith…however, anyone who read Hitchen’s book and came away convinced, either WANTS to be convinced, or is quite frankly, not very bright.
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:31am@Ashe
Hi my friend. I will be up for another 30 mins. I never got an answer from our previous posts regarding your mathematical proof. Can you elaborate?
Report Post »ManThong
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:32amSad way to go. All alone. Into the dark. No hope of light.
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 2:36am@DEUTSCHER
Good to come into contact with you again. Below is the response I posted to you in that other thread, I must have just posted it too late for you to spot it. If we are to go into evidentiary supports and arguments for God’s existence, that will be a long conversation. This is a conversation I am willing to have, but this is not the forum for it. What I was more interested in is finding out what you considered to be valid evidence. However, at the end of my post, I do point you in what I feel is the right direction if you are willing to do some honest searching.
Here is my previous response, re-posted with some minor tweaks:
If I am to understand you correctly here, you assert that you believe in oranges because you can see them, and you can physically test for them. I assumed you would respond with something like that, but I want to ask you…do you not see the issue inherent in this?
On the case of not being able to physically test God, we agree. While you could use something like a Turing test for consciousness and intelligence, you would need the cooperation of the test subject in order to do such a thing, etc. Where we diverge is in your statement that you would only accept empirically tested scientific evidence as valid evidence. You land in troubled waters here.
I asked you earlier about math. Is math provable by the scientific method? You claim to consider mathematical truths as valid, so how do you reconcile this?
Can science itself be proven to exist by the scientific method? You seem very keen on science, since you have mentioned in nearly every other post the persistently laughable Dawkinsian argument of how Christians are supposedly anti-science. So where is your empirical evidence for the existence of science itself?
Howzabout the person behind the nom de plume of DEUTSCHER? Can you empirically test for your consciousness? If not, how do you know it is there? How do you know you aren’t some brain hooked up to the Matrix, or even just some computer program with no real consciousness at all? How do you know that you, are in fact, you?
You lead your life everyday because of basic beliefs supported by evidence that is not empirically scientific, because of these accepted truths that are not supported by anything remotely scientific in nature. When it comes to that old “miraculous claims” canard, you take what are miraculous events (such as life, the universe, and everything somehow beating the near mathematical impossibility that is the existence of a life-sustaining universe, not to mention we little humans) and see them as commonplace for that same reason.
However, when it comes to the concept of God, ONLY empirically testable scientific evidence will do, in spite of the mountain of other kinds of evidence pointing to a creator of the universe? This seems to be nothing more than goal post moving by someone who flat out doesn‘t want to believe in the big ’ol sky daddy.
I brought up miraculous events such as a life-sustaining universe because in order to get around this appearance of design and near mathematical impossibility (fine-tuning, anthropic principle, whatever) most atheists engage in intellectual dishonesty by applying the multiverse theory. After all, if there are an infinite number of universes, then our life-sustaining universe is near-guaranteed…otherwise it is back to the drawing board and the G-word. As one famous atheist cosmologist once said when faced with all the evidence, “You either have to believe in God, or the multiverse.”
While I admit this may not apply to your particular beliefs, this puts the atheist in an interesting conundrum, since the multiverse has not one shred of empirical evidence in its favor, and even the math has to be fudged to get multiverse models to work. Better yet, the multiverse is a philosophical theory, it is an appeal to (ironically) the metaphysical to explain the natural. Yet, atheists seem to very keen to glom onto multiverse theories in spite of all this.
So do you also not accept multiverse theories as valid due to the lack of empirical evidence, or are you going on faith here? Additionally, if you reject both God and the multiverse, then how do you begin to explain the fine-tuning or the appearance of design in the universe?
Before I wrap up, I also want to address the whole “any philosophy that rejects science…I hope we someday move on from religion” claims you’ve made. Do you realize that some of the most infamous mass murderers of the 20th century have been atheists who used scientific facts as a pretense to engage is some of the most horrific acts throughout history?
In fact, if you read Rummel, you’ll see that the body count of atheist regimes between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million, three times more than all the people killed by war and individual crime in the entire 20th century, and exponentially more than the Inquisition and the Crusades combined. Even worse, when taking the historical approach, the average atheist regime’s crime against humanity is roughly 18.3 million percent worse than the worst event ever initiated by Christendom, even though atheists have only had less 1/20th the opportunity to commit these atrocities.
Finally, according to the Encyclopedia of Wars, when using their criteria to define a “religious war” only 7% of the total wars fought between 8000 BC and 2000 AD were religious in nature. I assure you the body count is equally skewed.
So, it would seem that you don’t need religion to commit horrific acts, Darwin and some misguided control issues are even better motivators. In fact, when we look at the statistical data, it would seem that religion actually is quite peaceful, all things considered. I would take a long hard look at that before you start wishing away its existence. Scientific truths are great and all, but what about moral and ethical truths?
Last but not least, if you are truly interested in the many logical, mathematical, cosmological and philosophical evidences and arguments for God’s existence, I would look into Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig, The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, or if you want something on a more introductory level, the work of Gerald Schroeder is wonderful, as are some of Craig’s other books, and even CS Lewis. These are only the tip of the iceberg and if you begin your search in earnest, what you find may surprise you. However, If you are only interested in the sort of socially autistic circle jerk that the pseudo-intellectual hubris of atheism provides, then this exchange is a waste of time.
For what it is worth, I hope you search in earnest. Take care.
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 10:16am@Ashe
Wow. You threw out a everything but the kitchen sink. Please don’t confuse my point or the topic.
There is no need for god to explain reality. ( there could be a creator but I would argue it’s most likely not the Christian god)
Religion has and STILL does promote ignorance over fact. ( there is a creationist museum in KY)
Religion is inherently violent against non-believers and responsible for or complicent in the worst actions.
Now you begin by making the exesistential argument about the nature if reality that we may not exist. This has nothing to do with proving god and is not relevant.
Your mathematical “proof” seems to be the fine-tuning of the universe. This is a very interesting property of matter, but it is only proof that our universe has specific qualities. It could be explained easily by M theory. But since you dont like that, consider that we simply may not know yet The fact that we don’t know everything is hardly a “proof” of god.
You spend some time trying to prove that religious people murder less. But you seem to forget the catholic church supported Hitler, El Duce, the Rawandn genocide, etc in addition to the crusades, the japanese in WWII were religious fanatics, the Tamil tigers, Hindu-Muslim violence,Jewish-Muslim violence, and so on and so on. The idea that religious people are morally better is equally false. For all their wailing and gnashing of teeth over gay marriage destroying marriage, evangelicals divorce in higher rates that non-believers.
It seems most of your “proofs” are rethorical flourishes or a sort of “irreducible complexity”, it’s statistically improbable , type of argument. That is not proof. No more than telling cavemen you can prove god because where else would lightening come from?
This is truly not the forum to have this discussion my thumbs can type only so much. Haha
I stand by my assertion that the world wil be a better place when we move beyond myth to solve our urgent problems.
Report Post »Cheers
thegrassroots
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:28pm@ deutscher
Good Morning! Just jumping in here with a very concise comment. You are, by your very own words, referencing “religion.“ Jesus Stands Against ”Religion!” May I suggest that you thoroughly research both sides of this issue, just so you can speak intelligently about what you are against. Here’s a thought for a starting point: “Christianity is NOT ”religion!”! God Bless You Deutscher! May you come to know Jesus and Who He Is; and what Who He Is means to each and every one of us. :)
Report Post »Lucy Larue
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 4:39pmNICKDERIGER,
Report Post »I am not praying for Christopher Hitchens. I am not!
This is a man who actually wrote a book about “God Is Not Good” for filthy lucre! He is an atheist.
This is a man who KNOWING that the Universe goes on into infinity decided there was no God.
That is extreme HUBRIS!
I hope Dr. Collins cures him. I hope he lives to a “Ripe Old Age”. I will not pray for him.
His fate is in the hands of the God he thwarts!
Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 5:31pm@DEUTSCHER
I appreciate the response, but this is why I so rarely engage atheists. They read the words, but they rarely comprehend the purpose behind what they are reading. Under normal circumstances, I would begin to question your intelligence, but since I am of the opinion that you at least believe the sincerity of your position, I will make one final attempt to clarify some things.
My previous post was not to argue for God’s existence (I specifically stated that this is not the forum for it), yet you obviously approached it as such, either because of your need to argue your own position, or perhaps (given your nickname) English is your second language, I’m not sure.
You talk of the irrelevance of these statements, but the truth is that they are not irrelevant, you just didn’t comprehend their purpose. The first thing we must do before engaging in arguments for God’s existence is to figure out why you dismiss the evidence that is there (and keep in mind, it is a dismissal, not a lack of evidence that brings you to your conclusion). This is either because you aren’t aware of its existence, or you are, in fact, a hypocrite.
What I was illustrating to you was the nature of evidence and how you accept truths everyday without a shred of empirical scientific evidence. Yet this was the only evidence you claimed that you would accept in regards to the existence of God.
Math cannot be empirically proven to exist, neither can science itself, neither can your consciousness. Yet you believe the existence and truth of all these things. You even believe some of them to be self-evident, whether they actually are or not. It cannot be empirically proven that you are no more than a computer program in the Matrix, yet you get up everyday assuming that you are in fact flesh and blood.
Again, only an idiot would think that these are arguments for God’s existence; these are merely devices used to illustrate that MANY different types of valid evidence are relied upon to make up every single belief that exists in not only the Christian, Hindu or Muslim’s head, but also the atheist’s as well.
So, when faced with evidence for God that is not empirically scientific in nature, the atheist dismisses it, yet they do not do the same for their held beliefs. This is nothing more than goal post moving, and if you are going to make a sincere search for evidence and argument for God, you need to be willing to weigh the same myriad of evidence that you weigh for nearly every other belief you hold. This was the purpose behind the majority of my last post, however either due to a lack of comprehension, or a desire to avoid it, you chose to dismiss it without cause.
When it comes to the origins of the universe, you seem ed to miss the boat here as well, and in doing so, played right into what I was illustrating. M-Theory (and other multi-worlds theories) is a metaphysical and philosophical theory with no empirical scientific evidence backing it up.
There is no empirical evidence for a multiverse, and in fact, according to Borde, Guth & Vilenkin, any expanding universe cannot be infinite in the past, which also means that the device creating the multiverse has not been operating infinitely, which would still make the existence of our finely-tuned universe nigh-impossible, even if a multiverse were in place. Additionally, we should expect to see a much different looking universe if we were part of a world-ensemble. Let us also not forget the mathematical jury-rigging of “the landscape” that allows something like M-Theory to even be mathematically viable.
Once again (just to continually clarify), keep in mind that the problems inherent to multiverse theories are not arguments for God’s existence, rather they are just another evidentially problematic moment for the atheist. You (by your own statements) seem to accept multiverse theory, which has no empirical evidence, is mathematically jury-rigged, is not in line with our observable universe, and is a metaphysical construct, more of a philosophical theory than anything else. So you accept this in spite of your claimed empiricism, yet reject the concept of God, which is more elegant, does not unnecessarily multiply causes, and has better explanatory power. This is the height of atheistic double-standard, and it is a hypocrisy you will have to move past if you are truly going to weigh the evidence for God’s existence. Existence for God is much like searching for the electron, there is no “one thing” that shows God’s existence more likely than not, it is a matter of cumulative evidence.
Does my previous post now make more sense? Does it seem more relevant? If it doesn’t, then you are just giving into your atheistic myopia.
There is no time or space here to make extended versions of the arguments for God’s existence based on ALL our current evidence. It would take us pages and years to go on about the cosmological, teleological, ontological, and moral arguments for God’s existence, as well as the arguments from consciousness, from evil, from reason, from miracles, etc. As I stated earlier, this is not the place for it…what I can do however is discuss with you the nature of evidence, and hope that you open yourself up to what you find as you research this topic.
You mentioned that I “threw out everything but the kitchen sink”; however, this only shows your ignorance of the topic, as I barely scratched the surface. Once again, I would start with Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig, and The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. Since you mentioned it, there are wonderful versions of the cosmological and “fine-tuning” arguments in these books. As as far as you arguing against the “Christian God”, that is five steps ahead of where we are here…the first step is to get you thinking sincerely about the existence of a creator God. After that you can get into religious truth claims, however I will say that while I was once an atheist in your position, I was eventually swayed by the evidence for Christianity being more likely true than not.
I really do wish you the best on your intellectual search, assuming it is genuine.
Last but not least, I’ll once again touch upon your anti-science, religious violence claims. As far as the former claim goes, the “creation museum” in Kentucky is not anti-science. That’s also a ridiculously low-blow, and kind if pitiful if that’s all you have in your arsenal.
While the museum may be wrong, since when is it anti-science to disagree with a popular hypothesis? Atheists love to throw around that “anti-science” claim whenever anyone disagrees with St. Darwin of the Galapagos, or any other theory they support for that matter. Had today’s science-fetishing atheists been around in the 1600s, Galileo would have been “anti-science” because of his belief in heliocentrism. Let us not forget that it was Galileo’s scientific colleagues who threw him under the proverbial bus long before he offended the papal office. Let us also not forget that many great scientists have been Christian, from Galileo himself, to Francis Collins.
As for your second claim, I gave you stats and historical research, you gave me “well, the Japanese were religious, and the Pope loved Nazis!” That’s weak sauce, my friend. As far as the Japanese claim is concerned, was their reason for war religious in nature? Did their religious belief propel them into WWII? No. Also, while the Catholic Church did believe that Nazi Germany was a good shield against the rise of communism, they had no idea about Hitler’s genocide, and they quickly changed their tune.
However, the relative validity of these points still does NOTHING to change the fact that only 7% of the total wars fought between 8000 BC and 2000 AD were religious in nature, nor does it change the even more disturbing fact that between 1917 and 2007, atheists killed three times more than all the people killed by war and individual crime in the entire 20th century.
That the average atheist regime’s crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the worst religious atrocities ever brought by Christendom, even though atheists have only had less 1/20th the opportunity to do so is a fact that should give you great pause. It seems that not only are you bringing a sewing needle to a gunfight here, but you are sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming “la la la, can’t hear you.”
All that being stated, I do truly wish you the best in what I hope is an honest intellectual search, and I hope that you look into the reading that I recommended (not just running off to YouTube to find some two bit failed atheist attempt to “debunk” these arguments), and that you take the arguments for and against God in earnest and make a clear decision. I was once in your position, and it wasn’t until I got really honest with my biases that I realized just how mistaken I had been.
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 9:23pm@ASHE
I am on my laptop so I can respond a bit easier.
First, I am highly disappointed that your response was predicated with the statement that I am stupid and you hate to engage stupid people, but you are going to indulge me. That first paragraph said quite a bit. Thank you for being so patient with my ignorance.
Then you call me a hypocrite or idiot because I “dismiss evidence” that YOU seem to think argues for a god ( but you didn’t mention any such evidence at this point).
This is followed by what you call an explanation of your point that I accept things as true with less evidence every day than necessary to prove god ( still no mention of what they are).
NOW in paragraph # 5 we come BACK to the same argument ( which I told you earlier was not relevant ) that we can not prove our own existence and go so far as use the movie The Matrix to make your assertion. I am going to be generous here and assume you were dumbing it down for my benefit ( its not necessary ;) ). I will against my wishes engage you on this point. YES YES YES. It is quite possible that all of our reality is part of a computer program. Actually quantum physics shows us a particular interesting aspect of nature that it only exists when we observe it. If you wish to have a discussion as to the nature of reality, I am happy to have it, but it is NOT RELEVANT to the discussion of the existence of god in our perceived reality. We have to take as given what we can measure and quantify. We have to continue to use science to explain our reality so that we can build buildings, microchips, medicines, etc. Regardless we live in this world. The fact that it may all be a simulation does not give us reason to believe it IS a simulation. So please I implore you ( as I did before) lets use the tools we have available to us to try to understand our reality.
Next you say, but “only an idiot would think that these are arguments for god’s existence”, but you were making a point that many views are used to create the various belief systems in the world. YES you are absolutely correct. But then you go back to the well with admonishing me not to dismiss the “myriad of evidence” which you again, do not enumerate but state that your whole point was go get me to not dismiss the evidence you have not provided.
Following this you dismiss M Theory!! Did you not just admonish me for such actions? It is called M THEORY for a reason…. its a theory( I refer you to your dictionary at this point). Once the WMAP sat gives some good data on background radiation and following the discovery of the Higgs Boson, and so on, we may have all the pieces to solve the puzzle. It may lead us to a complete other theory, and so on until we find a model that works. Unanswered questions do not argue for a god, Talk about moving the goal post ( something else you accused me of). Christians, thiest, whatever you want to be called have moved that post over and over with each breakthrough. How many men and women of science suffered while churches taught that they were heretics? There must be a god, look at the sun, the cycle of seasons, lightening, etc. So now you have the post at, look at the fine tuning of the universe. I now how finely tuned it is, I studied engineering. Im not a astro-physicist but I understand the constants involved to make matter exist. It is still not an argument for god ( which you insist you are not even making… and then say that a god is a much more elegant answer…. UGH). PS I never said I ACCCEPT M Theory I said it is an interesting explanation that needs no god. i am sure there will be others.
You seem at this point to feel that you have achieved some milestone in explaining yourself, but I am left with not more insight than I had before. I am not being myopic ( as you also accuse me of). I am being realistic. And trying not to be as absolutely personal and NASTY as you have been.
We come to paragraph #12 where you once again reference all the evidence for a god but don’t mention any. Not enough time or space is your complaint, yet you are on paragraph 12 and all you have done is try to dis M Theory and use the “fine tuning” argument.
Honestly at this point I am tired of being called every name for idiot and having no real information put in front of me. You then go on and on about christianity and more about how stupid I am for thinking the Creation Museum is anti-science.
I am used to vitriol from theist folk. I am. You have a solid belief and just can’t understand why it is not enough to convince others. Let me offer some advice, just because others have a higher bar for evidence in an all powerful creator ( which brings into question all the old favorites of “ who created him”, ” why did he make so many mistakes with human anatomy?’, etc, but I promised I would not engage in the existential arguments), don’t dismiss them as hypocrites. You do not have the answer to reality. No one does. And until there is a reason to believe in a god that overcomes all the problems that theism has brought on man, and continues to bring. Honestly, if there is a god, he has a lot of explaining to do.
I won’t belittle you, call you a hypocrite, stupid, weak minded, cocky, arrogant, self important, but I will say if you were so certain in your beliefs, you would have a concise bullet-proof argument for your position and not a dissembling diatribe of my failings and a reading list.
Report Post »rachany
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 10:59pmLet’s pray for him, that God he says doesn’t exist is forgiving
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 28, 2011 at 3:35pm@DEUTSCHER – I wrote you a nice response here but it magically disappeared after posting, and because I had confirmed its posting, I closed my doc without saving. Allow me to quickly say that I didn’t insult you at all. I simply made if/then statements. Please go back and carefully read my previous post for clarification. As far as my latest post goes, I will re-post later today.
Take care.
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on March 28, 2011 at 7:14pmASHE
I appreciate the change in tone from condesendtion to conversation. Funny usually it’s theist, Christian mainly who complain that athiest talk down to them. No matter. Thanks.
I will be brief as I’m traveling and on my iPhone.
I am not a dogmatic believer in M Theory. I , like most I think, understand that until there is a solid theory we use what is at hand. There may never be a grand unified theory but one can hope. Again it is simply not relevant as one could then simply argue that god was in charge of that process as well.
I understand the arguments of waveform mechanics, origin of life, fine tuning, etc. I am familiar with some of the popular logical arguments. I’m sure your suggested reading will yield some I have not heard. I like to think if I heard the right argument I would b open to it, but I have yet heard one that accounts for and negates the counter arguments. Basically if there was a creator, why? Why create? Why all the mistakes? And so on. As well as the old question what is the nature of the creator? Was it created? And all the issues of extra-creational time, etc. Having a creator is far from an elegant simple solution. This has of course infinitely more complications when one looks at religion and god
I should have begun at the beginning, sorry I can’t proof or edit on the phone
You are absolutely correct, the beginning of any good debate should be the establishment of common facts and debate framework. Maybe we can do this properly in another forum at some point. But to the exact point let me say that given the current counter-arguments for the existence of god to the aforementioned pro-arguments, and failing and empirical evidence ( which you agree is not likely), I do not believe in a god. I am most accurately agnostic, but I argue on behalf of athiest in matters of religion as I am very much against religion as a whole.
Cheers
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 29, 2011 at 2:13am@DEUTSCHER – Given the topics covered in your last response (such as establishing ground rules for discourse, and continuing this in another forum), I am going to assume that you read my previous post that now seems to have disappeared. Given this, I will not bother re-posting it. If this is not the case, please let me know and I will re-post.
As I explained in the post that vanished (at least I can’t find it), when it comes to multiverse theories, I am only using them to point out the evidential hypocrisy of the prototypical atheist, no more, no less. Honestly it doesn’t matter whether you personally buy into multiverse theory or not, the point is still well made.
I think that your admitted agnosticism to the existence of a creator God is quite promising, and the only rational decision given that you find the arguments for God‘s existence which you’ve been exposed to unconvincing. When I was an atheist, I felt largely the same way, and keep in mind I was not some table-banging, religion hater…I simply didn’t believe. However it was the weight of the evidence that pulled me to believe that God is more likely than not, and eventually that much of Christianity is more likely true than not. I soon realized that my objection was not entirely evidential, but was (among other things) a case of extreme and unwarranted hubris, which is not rare among atheist-types, and is a trait that I’ve come to mock quite openly.
I hope that this position of (relative) neutrality on the existence of God will serve you well, assuming you continue your research into this topic. As for your claim of the “evils” of religion, and given what I’ve gleaned from your previous statements, I think that you share the sort of faulty reasoning typified by Messrs. Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and Hitchens. The evils of religion are extremely overplayed by the secular squadron and are often historically inaccurate, or outright fabrications. However, I think if you are really interested in learning the truth, you could surely find all this on your own.
Last but not least, if the supposed evils of religion (particularly when compared to secular institutions) is a line of discourse you would like to engage in, it is clearly defined enough that we probably could make that happen somewhere at some time in the future without too much heavy lifting involved.
Allow me to say that I’ve enjoyed our conversation, even with you dismissing points without proper cause, and me giving in to my tendency for applying the occasional unfair rhetorical barb. I look forward to encountering you again in another forum.
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on March 29, 2011 at 2:36am@DEUTSCHER
For the sake of posterity (or perhaps ego), I decided to re-post my missing response anyway. Once again, I’ve enjoyed this exchange and hope to do it again.
I apologize that you took my comments the way you did, as it was not my intent to insult you. While I am not above calling someone an idiot if they are, in fact, an idiot, I did not do this with you. If you would care to re-read my previous post, you would see that I simply made if/then statements, no more, no less. I appreciate you feel the way you do because we are on opposite sides of the fence, and you are used to inflammatory rhetoric; however, no insult was meant, so let’s move on from getting rankled over perceived insults, okay?
That being said, if someone unreasonably dismissed the evidence for the existence of God, yes, I would consider them an idiot, or perhaps just unwilling to utilize a fair evidential standard. The other option is that they are just ignorant of the argument and evidence that is out there, so when I made a statement of your potential ignorance, I was using the word clinically…this was not meant to be insulting, it was just me simply stating that you may not be aware of the argument and evidence that is available.
As for me making an argument for God’s existence, I expressly stated that this was not the forum in which to do so, as there is just too much material out there. This was a statement you originally seemed to agree with, but now have now curiously reversed course, and are attempting to undermine my statements by saying I’ve given no evidence. I’ve made it clear from the beginning that this was not my purpose.
My purpose has been a very common one, often used in debate, which is to establish the definitions and the reasoning of your interlocuter. In this case, we’ve been discussing evidence. What do you consider evidence? What evidence do you find valid? How do you define evidence? Why do you find certain evidence convincing and other evidence unconvincing, even though they ostensibly carry the same weight? You need to lay out this groundwork before we begin an exchange (or you begin your research) on the existence of God, otherwise it is a waste of time. Does this make sense?
As for the “matrix” comparison, you are picking at nits a bit here. This was not meant to be a “proof” statement, or an existential thought experiment, it is a simplified scenario in order to show that even without empirical scietnfic evidence we engage in “properly basic” reasonable beliefs, no more, no less…and in that regard it is more than relevant.
As for M-Theory and other multiiverse theories, I did not “dis” them whatsoever. In fact, I didn’t opine or give judgement on them at all (the closest I came is to say God is a simpler and more elegant solultion, which isn’t really a reflection on multiverse theories, per se), nor did I use them an argument for God’s existence. I merely stated the well-documented problems inherent with these theories.
To restate my previous points; multiverse theories have no empirical evidence to support them, need mathematical gymnastics in order to be viable, appeal to the metaphysical to explain the physical, unnecessarily multiply causes, at their core are philosophical theories, and are not necessarily in sync with the observable universe. All facts.
I’m sure you know that among many physicists, cosmologists and mathematicians, multiverse theories are considered laughable. The reason that atheists from Dawkins to Carrier and everyone in-between glom onto multiverse theories and also want to get rid of Big Bang cosmology is to try to get away from the theistic implications in the creation and fine-tuning of the universe. This “anti-God” reasoning is well-documented in peer reviewed journals, books, and more. In fact, I was sitting ten feet away from a well-known cosmologist at a major university when he stated that very thing.
So, the atheist gloms onto multiverse theory to avoid the alternative, even though multiverse theories have no empirical evidence, are philosophical in nature, appeal to the metaphysical to explain the physical…you know, many of the reasons that atheists appeal to in order to reject the concept of God. While I readily admitted two posts ago that YOU may not hold to this, this still illustrates the evidential double-standard held by the typical atheist, a double-standard the atheist is going to have to get over in order to be receptive to the arguments for God’s existence.
While I agree that the multiverse may someday empirically proven to be true, this is nothing more than an act of faith. It is just as possible that God will someday be empirically proven to be true, also an act of faith. The difference is that one group admits it, while another resorts to making claims about how they are above such an act due to their undying fetish for scientism.
FInally, let’s talk about my suggestion of reading material. I have stated ad nauseum that this is not the place to talk argument and evidence for God’s existence as there is just too much to cover, hence my referring you to the material. These men can convey the evidence and argument much better than I can, as it is what they do for a living after all.
Even Christopher Hitchens was shocked when he debated William Lane Craig, and he learned that theologians use cosmology, philosophy, math, science, etc. as the foundation for evidence and arguments for the existence of God. Hitchens just didn’t know any better, he was ignorant of the fact (which also explains his reliance on circular rhetoric in the debate, and general look of unease). That I make the same comparison of you is not meant to insult you, but is taken as an opportunity for me to refer you that knowledge base.
Additionally, you’ll be happy to know that you will find many bullet-pointed arguments for your pleasure. I think as someone interested in engineering (or in an engineering field, ect.), much of this information will be quite appealing to you. You will also find that your list of what are often called “Sunday School objections”, such as “who created the creator” and “can God make a rock he can’t lift“ ”why does evil exist” are either well tended to, or rendered pretty moot. “Why” is a great question. Why do we humans create? Why are there natural disasters? Why do we have free will? The “why” is the whole reason for the journey.
In conclusion, if you are truly interested in seeking this knowledge, you should be applauding me for pointing you in the right direction. However, if your goal here is to troll message boards to show those “stupid creationists” what for, and your only interest is in “winning the argument”, then this conversation has been a waste of time. I sincerely hope this is not the case.
That being said, I certainly hope that you do look into this material I suggested, and I also hope (lotsa hope) that you can drop any evidential double-standard you may hold in preparation for your research. Attempting to make you think before you engaged in such activity was the whole point behind our exchange.
Once again, take care.
Report Post »jackrorabbit
Posted on March 29, 2011 at 2:37amI pray that he not only saves his life, which is temporary, but his soul, which is eternal!
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