Why Are Sailors on Navy Submarines Cheating on Tests?
- Posted on August 15, 2011 at 8:48pm by
Jessie Abrams
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HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) — When the Navy discovered a cheating ring aboard one of its submarines, it swiftly fired the commanding officer and kicked off 10 percent of the crew.
Navy officials describe the case aboard the USS Memphis as a rare lapse in integrity, but some former officers say the shortcuts exposed by the scandal are hardly unique to a single vessel.
The former submariners tell The Associated Press it is not uncommon for sailors to receive answer keys or other hints before training exams. They say sailors know how to handle the nuclear technology, but commanders competing with one another to show proficiency have made exams so difficult — and so detached from the skills sailors actually need — that crew members sometimes bend the rules.
An investigation report obtained by the AP through a Freedom of Information Act request describes an atmosphere aboard the USS Memphis that tolerated and even encouraged cheating: Sailors were emailed the answers before qualification exams, took tests outside the presence of proctors and openly asked officers for answer keys. One sailor told investigators that test-takers were encouraged to “use their time wisely” during breaks, insinuating that they should look up answers to exam questions.
A submarine force spokeswoman, Navy Cmdr. Monica Rousselow, said the Navy holds its officers and crew to very high standards and denied that cheating is rampant.
“The evidence we have shows that it’s very rare,” said Rousselow, who is based in Norfolk, Va.
But three former officers said the episode aboard the Groton, Conn.-based Memphis was an extreme example of shortcuts that occur aboard many of the roughly 70 American submarines in service.
One of the former officers, Christopher Brownfield, wrote in a book published last year that his superiors aboard the USS Hartford urged him to accept an answer key to pass a nuclear qualification exam. He said other crew members received answers by email, and the sub’s leadership ignored him when he complained about cheating.
“It was almost universal,” Brownfield said in an interview. “I don’t know anybody on the ship who could have passed that exam without cheating on the first try.”
As an instructor at the Navy’s submarine school in Groton in 2005, Brownfield said he heard from members of roughly a dozen other crews that cheating also took place on their boats. He blamed pressure to hit ever-higher performance targets.
“They’ve expected more and more paperwork, with higher levels of compliance, and over time those expectations diverged from what people are actually doing,” said Brownfield, who is now researching nuclear sustainability as a graduate student at Columbia University. “In the nuclear department, the test became so difficult it really had no bearing on what people were doing on a daily basis.”
Two other former submarine officers who spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity for fear of losing connections to the Navy said that cheating is pervasive.
“Most people have great integrity except in this one area. On a lot of boats, they’ll bend the rules and try to juice the results,” said one former officer. He said it was not unusual for crew members on his submarine to receive hints to study particular areas before exams. As an instructor at the submarine school, he said he learned of similar practices on other subs.
Submariners have to make it through rigorous, highly technical training and testing before going to sea. Once deployed, they face more exams to test their knowledge and preparedness for worst-case scenarios. Low scores can lead to consequences up to removal from a sub, and hurt the overall rating of the crew.
The scandal aboard the Memphis broke in November when Navy brass learned that an answer key to one such test had been discovered in a junior officer’s email.
The sub’s commanding officer, Cmdr. Charles Maher, was relieved of duty within two weeks. He wasn’t accused being involved in the cheating, but the Navy said he fostered an environment that failed to uphold the expected standards of integrity. He did not respond to messages left by the AP.
Of the 13 crew members who were punished, only three returned to the Memphis for its final deployment. The other crew members were reassigned, kicked out of the Navy or are awaiting possible dismissal, said Navy Lt. Jennifer Cragg, a submarine group spokeswoman at Naval Submarine Base New London in Groton. The 33-year-old submarine was decommissioned in April.
John Fischer, a former officer who used to help oversee exams from a Navy base in Washington state, said the tests are about much more than the knowledge displayed by individual test-takers. Officers aboard each sub create their answer keys, and the process is meant to sharpen the superiors’ skills as well. He said the exams are supposed to be difficult, with a certain number of failures designed in to identify areas for improvement.
He said the collegial atmosphere aboard a submarine, where exams are administered by fellow shipmates and even friends, could be a factor in the cheating.
“If you get one guy in there who doesn’t have the integrity to do the right thing, then it can progress really easily,” said Fischer, who now works as a manufacturing engineer.
Like the other ex-officers interviewed for the story, Fischer said the safety of the reactors is not in question.
A spokesman for Naval Reactors, the agency that oversees the Navy’s nuclear propulsion program, said the Navy works diligently to understand the root causes of any cheating case and to make changes. Spokesman Thomas Dougan said that out of 16,000 nuclear-trained officers and enlisted sailors taking several exams annually, there are on average one or two cheating cases per year that result in the removal of nuclear qualifications. Most cases involve only a few sailors, he said.
Dougan said the written exams are one of several measures used to assess the effectiveness of a continuing training program, and the kind of cheating that occurred on the Memphis would not put the ship or reactor plant at risk.
He said commanders use other measures, including supervisors’ observations, drills and oral exams, to assess how well-trained crews are.
On the Memphis, the Navy investigation concluded that some of the mechanical operators decided to cheat partly because problems with the exam’s design prevented questions from lining up with the expected answers. Five of eight sailors stopped using the answer keys after the problems with the exams were addressed, the report said. It suggested that the exam program could be improved by requiring that all qualification exams be proctored.
In light of the scandal, Rousselow said squadron commanders and commanding officers have been encouraged to make any changes that might be necessary to prevent such cheating. She said the Navy was leaving it up to commanders to determine what steps if any should be taken to implement lessons learned from the Memphis.
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Comments (73)
TrueAmerican66
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 2:19pmNever saw nor head of anything like this in my 10 years On Board 2 different Submarines…….Not sayin‘ that it didn’t happen just sayin’ never saw nor heard of this. I do know that there are CHEATERS everywhere, just look up in Washington and you will see a bunch of examples…..Hell, ones on Tour right now talkin’ through his ass.
Report Post »DrammyCoke
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:39pmSame here. They way I always looked at qual boards when I was on the USS Sunfish was that I needed to know this stuff so I can save my life and the life of my shipmates.
The best marine is a submarine.
Report Post »Ruler4You
Posted on January 12, 2012 at 6:50amI’d have to agree that leadership is trickle down. LBE. Lead by Example. But if our military did that, we’d be like Irans military. Useless.
I don’t see where the test name is actually mentioned. I was in 73 – 82. NTPI, ORSE and Nuke weapons tests were very strict. Answers had to be word for word, EXACTLY out of the SOP. It took serious study to memorize them. Along with ship board SOP and a host of other procedures and requirements, not including submarine qualifications, divisional and ship board watch station quals, if you weren’t memorizing stuff, you weren’t going to be on subs for very long. We had no tolerance for slackers, or DINQs (DINKs) (delinquents in qualifications).
There were too many people who were willing to help you if you were motivated to help yourself. If a work around was discovered and the void wasn’t filled later then they deserve what they get. But laziness is a disease. The easy route can get you in deep trouble very fast. You want easy? Stay home and enjoy freedom from your couch.
Report Post »sapper
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 1:26pmgeez. In the Army we are tested hand on, you must actually perform the task and are evaluated on your completion of the steps. If a task is simulated like dis-arming a booby trapped land mine then you act out the motions and verbally explain what your doing while your doing it. Our exams were go or no go. You either pass or fail, nothing in between. As a combat engineer were tested on land navigation, explosive orninance disposal and deployment, weapons, enemy vehicle and aircraft ID, etc.. The exception to hands on testing was the testing on formulas for blasting tank ditches and other obstacles to gain maximum effectiveness and efficiency from the blast. How much explosive to use vs. placement of charges and that kind of thing. Even there we would design a problem and set up a course where testees would have to simulate by placing the charges in correct manner. Once a year we had CEQ (combat engineer qualification) which was held in Grafenwhoehr training area and was done with live ordinance……except laying mine fields……would have been cost prohibitive so we used dummy mines for that. Everything we did was monitored and scored. A single slip up and you fail. You think it’s important not to fail a task with a reactor(and your right)? It’s pretty important not to screw up placement and detonation of a few dozen pounds of C4 also. But then the Navy does a lot of things that simply make a soldier say……Huh?
Report Post »Realpatriot1
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 1:44pmWe work the same way in the Sub Force too. We run a lot of drills and we have yearly Certs we have to pass….TRE, ORSE, Ect. We have to demonstrate ability to run the boat efficiently and safely. It is all hands on. The nuclear trained guys have to pass paper exams too but as a Sonar Tech we did not have to participate but we did have to know how to run the drills and respond to the emergency on board whether it was in the nuclear propulsion plant or forward where our electronics were.So it is basically the same thing as you Sappers, we are judged on our performance. The Nukes get those stupid paper tests because they are expected to know so much. The nukes in the aft part of the boat are held to a really high standard and I do not envy those guys. I always had a lot of respect for the amount of useless **** they had to know and the time they had to put in knowing it. As a Sonar Tech we were out drinking beer and playing volley ball or some **** by noon sometimes but the nukes were always still on-board. A hard working bunch of nerds is how I would describe them.LOL
Report Post »Realpatriot1
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 1:50pmSapper…. I watched “surviving the cut” the other night it was all about Army Sapper School. Much respect to you.
Report Post »NC
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 12:51pmI’m pleased to see so many bubbleheads and skimmers on The Blaze participating in this thread.
The Navy I was in was a different navy altogether (USS Sellers DDG-11, STG3). There was no cheating on my ship, that I was aware of, unless staying just far enough off the coast of the middle east where the small arms fire wouldn’t reach was cheating.
My appreciation to all those who have served on and under the seas.
NC (vietnam era vet)
Report Post »Realpatriot1
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 11:49amSTS3/SS Here. Uss Jefferson City SSN 759. I was a coner so I don’t really have any recollection of cheating going on on our boat. We were always supervised when we had exams and you cant cheat on your Sub quals because you actually have to draw the systems and demonstrate your knowledge to a board. The nukes have a totally different thing going on. I just wonder if the cheating was just Nukes. They have a lot of training and exams. A lot more than I would ever have wanted to do. Its sad that a few bad apples could ruin the reputation of the Sub force, who happen to be some the better sailors in Navy when it comes to integrity. We hold each other to a high standard and we did not tolerate lazy or sub-par sailors. The Navy was increasingly becoming politically correct before I got out. No telling how bad it is now. More proof of big government politics ruining honor and commitment. “ if you cant do it yourself we will help you and not let you fail”. Failure is a good thing!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Realpatriot1
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 1:45pmSapper…. I watched “surviving the cut” the other night it was all about Army Sapper School. Much respect to you.
Report Post »STS2_SS_Iver
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 2:21pmREALPATRIOT1: I second all that you have said. USS Miami
Report Post »tmplarnite
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:54amI’ll tell you the problem…it is the arrogance, stupidity and ignorance of the officer corps…the sickest was Rickover and his inner circle…they were/are “Loonier than toons”!!!! It is tough to man a Boat when your superiors are nuts!
Report Post »Bluebonnet
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 11:11amCheating has become a way of life for too many, because “doesn’t everyone do it?” Simply put,
Report Post »“there’s no honor among thieves.” Too many stories about cheating on anything that isn’t nailed down.
planet87
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:00pmBut the results haven’t turned out so bad have they? Over 50 years and how many millions of hours without a major accident recently… at least that we know about.
Report Post »String Bean
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:43am“Why Are Sailors on Navy Submarines Cheating on Tests?”
Well, if I were going to cheat on a test, where better to do it?
I mean, who’s going to see me, anyway?
That’s why sailors on Navy subs cheat on tests.
Report Post »Doni609
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:53amYou’re a fool!
Report Post »String Bean
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 11:43am@DONI609
Lighten up, dipwad, and try to develop a sense of humor.
Report Post »eat-more-bacon-USA
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:43amTo be honest, it is very unfair to ask anyone to memorize all “57 states”, obama’s country of birth and the exact date when Big Mo became “really proud” of America – it is all just too much.
Report Post »STS2_SS_Iver
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 2:23pmHa!
Report Post »SuperRidiculous
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:29amI was disgusted when I read this story. I was a Nuke MM2 on the USS George Washington. To give you an idea of the amount of schooling and training…
By the time you get to a ship (or boat) you have had 1.5 yrs or more of the most intense schooling the military has to offer. 50-75% of the people who start the program fail out before completing it.
When you get to a ship, you are qualifying for about a year until you are done. During this time, you spend about 12-20 hours per day working in one form or another. When you start standing watch on the plant, you are having drills run on you almost daily.
When ORSE came around, we never studied for it. You literally spent so much time working on or in the plant, it was second nature. Did guys fail, yep… and they were “calibrated”…
The fact that these D-bags were cheating is not an indication of over regulation. It shows a lack of leadership. If those at the top do not make sure the subordinates are prepared, this is what happens.
I am not very conservative, I will admit that. But this is the whole personal responsibility issue. As a leader you are tasked with ensuring your people are prepared, not providing the appearance of being prepared. This to me is just another example of the issues I have seen throughout all business and government. Being more concerned with appearances rather than the root cause of an issue will always cause a failure…
That is all…
Report Post »ChiefGeorge
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 11:13amAgreed! Its a personal responsibility thing and is representative of our morally bankrupt culture. Remember, the Navy just like the others services are a cross culture of the society at large. They are us and we are them. Just because they are on active service and have had some culture shifts as far as adopting the values and the language of the Navy does not change the corrupt heart. The cracks of our immorality are showing everywhere.
Report Post »SuperRidiculous
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 12:04pmI will be honest, the immorality thing to me is an issue that is challenging… I was raised Catholic, but am now an Agnostic… I don’t want morality based on ANY religion to be pushed… Especially since this has caused conflict throughout the ages.
I have found that the rules from my MMCM are all I need…
1. Don’t do anything to embarrass yourself, family, or friends…
2. Be where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be there…
3. Do what you are supposed to be doing…
That is all I needed and has worked fine…
Report Post »boca_chica
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:06amThings shure have changed. I was surface and the only tests we took were ORSE and ratings tests when underway. Your were allways training for the next watch station( ERS, EWS, EOOW) but I guess Tubers had it harder than surface( althought the Long Beach did Scram all it’s reactors once during ORSE when we were in the middle of the Pacific and we had to wait for them…The Enterprise just slowed down and we caught up a day later) and I guess training to the test is needed-you train so much that they can only give gotcha test-stupid questions that no longer pertain to only the data and procedures needed to run the ship/boat. When writing and giving tests to power plant operators, the questions and answers could last up to 8 hours mainly due to the shear size and differences in the 125MW units and the computers and chemistry needed to run them. I had no stupid gotcha questions on my tests-too much information to need them.
Report Post »DOCMMV
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 4:33pmDoes your statement about the Long Beach mean you were stationed on CGN-9?
Report Post »Just wondering…
E3 Division 80-85
boca_chica
Posted on August 17, 2011 at 10:54amActually no, was on CGN-35-first suface ship built from the ground up as nuclear-74-78 M1 Division ERS.
Report Post »poster
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:53amSounds like the Atlanta public school system.
Report Post »MONICNE
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:38amThanks Blaze for heaping suspicion and dishonor on our silent service, the most underrated and misunderstood of all US Military specialists.
TEA
Report Post »Dismayed Veteran
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:19amMONICNE
The Blaze did not heap dishonor on the silent service. The officers and enlisted who cheated did it. The truth is the truth no matter how hard it is.
Report Post »chicago76
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 11:12amAgain, blaming the messenger for the message.
Report Post »Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:35amI have a cousin who was in nuclear subs about 20 years ago. He came back from his first deployment with a white streak through one eyebrow. We ribbed him that “You’re not supposed to sleep on top of the reactor vessel.” The white streak has since grown out.
In all seriousness, if there were only two fields of human endeavour where you would NOT want people who had to cheat on the exam to get there, it’s nuclear engineering and submarining. Why they would foster an environment of rampant cheating aboard nuclear submarines baffles me.
Report Post »Shellback
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:44amThe way we trained for exams on the boats I was on when it came TRE/ORSE/NTPI and etc was to commit rules, safety, and procedures to memory and having to write them down verbatim. One misplaced word would fail the exam. The one thing we were taught was to remeber “key words and tricky phrases”. To this date I can name all the clutches on a teletype because “Sammy Cant Find Sally’s Little ****.” Crass but effective. Electronics reistor codes, “Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly”. But the Navy today won’t teach you those crass but very effective memory tools becuase “you might offend someone.” The PC road does and will have consequences.
Report Post »Shellback
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:54amLooks like Tango Whiskey Alfa Tango will get you the PC police here as well. Just goes to prove my point.
Report Post »Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:38amWhiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Report Post »Bum thrower
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:52amI like it; “SAD ULU”, and ‘take the fire outta the ole lady, ULU”; Been 43+ years and I still remember, and know what they mean!!
Report Post »Shellback
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 12:11pmHollowpoint,
Report Post »The editor put astericks for the last word in the phrase I had written on the original post and I commented about the edit in my 2nd post. I find it amazing that a name can have BS in the name but a comment rhyming with “what” gets edited.
Jenny Lind
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:37amThis started years ago, before my husband retired. Years ago the Navy Chiefs held the Honor and training of young sailors in their hands. Most problems were handled at “Chief” level, and they watched everything. During Carters years it all started to slide, the Chiefs tried hard, but no more taking care of problems by themselves. No more teaching the “old” ways of respect and honor. Then you added nuke a whole new thing, with “bright boys”, thier jobs kept them isolated from the rest of the crew, couldn’t talk about anything they did, so they became a bit insulated. Is it any wonder what is happening-and fyi-there are gangs on board ships now, isn’t that special? When my husband retired in 1990, he remarked the old Navy was dead and he was glad to be gone from the new one. Don’t get me wrong, I know some are stll good and decent, but there are serious problems too. The C.O’s and chiefs make a huge difference from ship to ship.
Report Post »Buttercup
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:53am“fyi-there are gangs on board ships now,”
Maybe on surface ships, but I doubt that on subs. There’s only about 130 men on a sub, and you’d better get along. I would think if trouble developed on a sub they’d take care of it, pronto.
Report Post »chicago76
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 11:17amIt looked like most of the gangs were on the large ships. Carriers. The navy began tolerating gangs long ago as part of affirmative action.
Report Post »planet87
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:11pmThings ebb and flow. I would have went to the fleet about the same time your hubby got out (1993). I was on the Vinson, now famous for dumping Bin Laden. They got the gangs under control.
Report Post »As far as cheating on written exams, as others have said, I can easily see the difficulty of the questions spiraling out of control and cheating becoming more rampant to cope with it. Which in turn feeds the cycle. As others have stated, the tests are (or were) supposed to be designed to fail some people. If nobody failed the test, then it was too easy. If people cheat, not enough people fail, the tests get harder. Like many other things it becomes a vicious cycle.
In the end, what’s important, is that the operators know the plant, how to operate it, and perform well in the drills.
On my ship, we would normally know what the drills were going to be before they ran them… so that was cheating a little bit also. But it really didn’t matter. They forced us to train and drill so much we were ready for just about anything. We pretty much set the record I think for a steam plant recovery from a full shutdown. Although others might contest that… I knew my plant, knew my crew and we kicked ass.
liberum1776
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:28amHate to say this, but this has been going on at least since the 80′s. It was policy to literally teach the exam and then provide, maybe not the exact answer key, but information prior to the exam which was so obviously the answers that only an idiot would not see it. If a person “failed” an exam, they would have to be extremely stupid.
Report Post »grayhaired vet
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:23amThis is just another troubling sign of the deterioration of our people and our society. When you don’t value yourself, your organization or the people around you, you stoop to this sort behavior. Just look around, this is happening everywhere. We are a nation in free fall.
Report Post »ThoreauHD
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:10amHow about they not give them written tests while they’re defending the Country. I don‘t see marine’s doing this crap in the field. Why are they?
Report Post »subdoc
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:30amMarines fight, nukes train for ORSE.
Report Post »TaunTaun
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:45amThe Four Orseman of the Apocalypse
Report Post »-Fire
-Flooding
-Coolant Leak
-Radioactive Spill
MONICNE
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 9:36amWell, it’s that way because an Inadvertent Nuclear Yield Is Not Allowed. Period. That’s why.
Only good marine is a submarine. (old USN saying)
The shaft is aft. (old Nuke saying)
LOL TEA
Report Post »String Bean
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:49amYeah, the shaft is aft, alright. And that‘s why we’d have no Navy if not for gays in the military.
bohican
Report Post »subdoc
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:47amThis is NOT news. The majority of senior O‘s and E’s have gotten where they are today because of cheating and /or lack of integrity. I have seen it in all the warfare communities of the NAVY. This is an example of our countries values as a whole. I have seen many a senior person get repremanded for cheating on their fitness report or lack of values by promotion and a set of orders to a far away duty station, this is how the modern NAVY keeps up it’s house.
Report Post »loriann12
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:01amWhen I took my test to advance from OTA3 to OTA2, I scored higher on the test than a fellow worker. But because she baby-sat for our OTA1, she got the advancement and I didn’t. I PNA’d it (passed but not advanced) because there’s a part where the supervisor and give marks that have no basis on the test. This was back in 1987. The military is very political. I can see them getting competitive and making the tests totally not connected to what is done on a daily basis.
Report Post »Sleazy Hippo
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:51amLoriAnn
Your landlubber petty officer testing has nothing to do with ORSE. Just sayin’
Report Post »Obama_Sham
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:36amAs a previous instructor in the Navy Nuclear Power field at NPTU Ballston Spa, NY (Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory), was there an element of cheating happening?!? Yes… But not at the student level… The only level of “cheating” that I saw was with the staff instructors… Really, it just depended on how cheating was defined…
With the countless hours of classroom training that each Navy nuke is required to undergo after the 1.5 years of schooling, there was so much information that was required, that classroom instructions became “areas of focus for the upcoming tests”… Keep in mind, this was not training that was required for advancement or general Navy training, this was additional classroom instruction just for the Navy nukes…
I find it funny how some here are commenting about other branches of service or those that served in the Navy but were not Navy nukes… Yes, there is a huge difference between required knowledge and training when comparing Navy nukes to any other rating in any other branch of service…
Report Post »TaunTaun
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:44amI know aboard my two boats, that cheating was done on the downlow, and as long as you didnt get caught, it wasn’t cheating. I actually took away an answer key one time from one of my nubs, and they got caught after printing out another one. I ended up going to Captain’s Mast and accussed of cheating myself. The EDMC tried singling me out as “an example” and tried to get me de-nuked. I refused to submit to a charge of cheating, and they ended up giving me a suspended bust. I even passed and advanced to E-6 while my restriction to the boat was going on. I had uniforms mutilated, and the goat locker had a large percentage that were just waiting for a screw-up. They refused to let me proceed with re-quals and new qualifications. I ended up going to a second boat after more than 4 years on my first ship. I found that the goat locker’s version of events arrived at my next boat even before I did. I ended up being de-nuked, and tossed out of the navy (General – Under Honorable) because I got caught up in the politics of cheating, and the repercussions thereof.
Cheating in submarines is a problem, but the biggest problem is the witchhunts that go on because of it. Because of their actions, I was not allowed to continue serving my country. If not for this incident, I‘m sure I’d still be in the navy watching the pot boil.
Report Post »Concerned Green Beret
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:08amAgain, we will lose site of the real issues. There will be all kinds of reasons stated for this. The fact of the matter is the military is being transformed. And obviously not for the better. You American public you better get used to this type of story, because with the social engineering that has happened and that is coming the military is quickly losing it “honor”. If you only knew half of what is going on right now you would probably lose your minds. The pentagon and brass, with the help of the media, coverup so much crap it would shock you. The only thing keeping it together is there still are a lot of good people who are serving for all the right reasons, but the ship has so many leaks it is only a matter of time before it bursts. On top of all the garbage they keep feeding the troops, the wars over the last ten years, and the social engineering they want to cut the retirement. They want to make it more like a civil servant beauracrats retirement. Well civil servant beauracrats don’t get shot at or told to deploy at the drop of a hat like the troops. There are troops out there that have been in combat zones 5, 6, 7+ times over the last 10 years. How much time is that away from the families. Now they want to betray them and cut their retirement. The moral bankruptcy in these people who propose this crap knows no bounds.
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:20amtoo much paperwork not enough real life drills.
Report Post »romadave
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 10:41amum, on a nuke sub, wouldn’t real life drills be a little dangerous? what with the radiation and everything?
And, in any endeavor where the rating of the boat and the commander depends on the outcome of tests on the crew, you would have to be very naive to not expect cheating of some sort.
Looking at the answer keyduring the test? sure, that’s bad. But really, is an instructor telling the students areas of focus for the upcoming test cheating? Then ALL American public school teachers must be cheating because they pretty much ONLY teach to the test. I‘m not sure I would call teaching topics that you would see on the exam ’cheating’ at all.
Report Post »Patriot
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:37amThis is what happens when people loose track of why these tests are administered. Like too many other things they have become a ‘paper drill’. The problem is not with cheating, the problem is that, just like with public schools, credit ratings, uniiversity degrees, etc…. the fools in charge focus their effort to “show” good resluts, instead of actually “getting” good results. They are intentionally subverting the intent of the tests. They were right to fire the skipper. This type of manipulation of results is a cancer, not just under the sea, but anywhere something critical needs to be measured and the easiest way to get “good” results is to deform the measurment device instead of the much harder work of ensuring the thing being measured is actually “good” This is a genuine failure of leadership, not like that Captain who got fired for his ‘distatesful’ video a few months ago, he was a darn good skipper who I would be proud to serve with anythime.
BTW thoses bubbleheads are a little funy anyway, the ‘nuke’ ones are usually off the chart goofy.
Report Post »Jack2011
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:02amHave you ever taken the annual CBRN training? Everyone cheated on that monstrosity officer and enlisted alike at least they did a few years back. I don’t know about now. That test/training took ALL DAY, sometimes 2 days to finish and you had to be a physician and physicist to understand some of the questions.
Report Post »Jack2011
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:33amWhat else is new? The Air Force routinely busts enlisted for cheating on the tests used to determine if they are promoted. It got so bad, a few years back the actual tests are sealed in plastic and the test taker has to rip off the cellophane.
The Navy GO IT RIGHT however in their promotion testings by making EVERYONE TAKE THE TEST ON THE SAME DAY. If there is cheating, it is like the article said, people getting the answer sheets before the test.
The Air Force staggers the test dates which is bad because “friends” “relatives, or spouses taking the test early (especially the AF general Knowledge test everyone takes) can “share” the questions with whoever they want. It is against the regulations to have “study groups” but they go on all the time.
Google Air Force’s Weighted Airmen Promotion System (WAPS) cheating
Report Post »Jack2011
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:56amI would be curious to know if the Navy experiences a more subtle form of cheating like the two examples below which occur routinely in the Air Force.
1. Some officers/enlisted supervisors give their “favored” enlisted personnel 1 or 2 or 3 days off to study for tests without the member being charged leave/vacation days.
2. Other officers let their “special” enlisted people come to work but then allow those “selected” get to go off to an empty office and study for a few hours EVERY DAY or even to study all day while the other workers who have to take the SAME TEST are forced to work all day even picking up the slack of the person(s) allowed to study.
Both of these tactics are morale killers. However, if a person(s) complained about the “favored” status of some, retaliation is alive and well.
Report Post »figusjanus
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:22amIn my 11 years in subs I was never given an answer key as an enlisted person. I served on the Ohio, Maryland and in Groton(NSSF)! I had to retake a test if I failed but that was the extent. There was no need to cheat in the Navy. The lesson plans where framed around the test for eight graders. It may be different for nuclear trained personnel. If you had have a brain then you could pass. But all of the personnel I had met in my time of service I have never seen such things. Honor, Courage and Commitment these are and always have been my ideals.
Report Post »Cat
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:18amIn the past, questions would have been considerably different and much easier to comprehend.
Example:
“Explain; r(k)=-μe r(k)/r(k)3“
Today, the questions are geared more toward affirmative action.
Example:
“If Johnny had one bucket of water and you had two buckets of water, how many buckets of water would you have if you didn’t give Johnny the time of day?”
That’s why they cheat … The can’t understand the damn stupid questions.
Report Post »DonaldH
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:47amThat’s easy: The time I would have would be less then I would have to swallow 3 oz. of beer from an 12oz. container if Johnny went by Jack and brought his girlfriend to the town dance.
Report Post »Cat
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:09amI think the answer is; you’d still have two buckets of water because Johnny would hurl his bucket of water at you for being so obstinate.
Report Post »But I’m not sure.
Go see what Kevin’s got for his answer!
Cold War Vet
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 5:24amDo I detect a few “other than honorable” or “bad conduct” discharges here? Back when I was in the Navy, we couldn’t even conceive of cheating on an exam. Just thinking about it was an act of treason! I saw a guy try to fake his way out of a urinalysis screen once, and got caught. They nailed his a$$!
I’m sure that the military has changed a lot since I was in. But I don’t ever want to see their standards plummet. That strict military standard of ethics is solid gold, and open honesty makes it work! In a shipboard environment, where things can get dangerous in a hurry, anything less is unacceptable!
Report Post »bboatmanable
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 6:02amI couldn’t agree more Sir. If the have EVERYTHING but lack INTEGRITY then we have NOTHING! “Better is little with righteousness, than great abundance without justice!” They should all, to the level commensurate with their involvement, be reprimanded. And if they have any Integrity, then they will accept the conssequences to their actions.
Report Post »Concerned Green Beret
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 7:17amThat was my previous point I made. The military over the last 15 years has lost its way. Cheating has become so common place. There is even a cute little saying “if you ain‘t cheatin you ain’t trying”. Just look at our leadership and how spineless they are. In the 60‘s or even 70’s do you think this social engineering garbage they are jammin down the troops throat would have gotten past the Chiefs. Hell no!!! They would have fought it like it was world war III. Read General Barrows (one of the last great commandants of the Marine Corps) speech to congress in the 60s when tthose jackasses brought up women in combat back then. Read that speech and then read the Chiefs testimonies on Gays in the military. The difference is staggering and is a testimony to the state of our military today. Sir, I know the Navy you speak of, my dad was a member of that Navy. You would be shocked at what has happened to it. That ship has long sailed on loss of standards!!!!
Report Post »redwood1957
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 5:20amFunny how they do things like this in the field and its wrong. For years they have been putting people into the Academy that under the old standards would not make it. Who wrote these tests? Was this enlisted or officers? I say ask the chief of the boat, he would have the scoop.
Report Post »subdoc
Posted on August 16, 2011 at 8:18amThe COB most likely turns a blind eye to these things if the skipper says so!
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