Controversial Evangelical Pastor Trumpets No-Hell Message on Network TV
- Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:40pm by
Jonathon M. Seidl
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Today’s the day we find out if hell, according to one pastor, exists. And Even the mainstream media can’t ignore the story.
Rob Bell, you may remember, is the evangelical pastor from Michigan that sent orthodox Christian tempers flaring with the announcement of his new book, Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. Many said the book bordered on, if not was, heresy for its description’s suggestion that everyone goes to Heaven. Still, others took a wait-and-see approach until the book’s scheduled debut. It came out today.
(Read our earlier story on the firestorm.)
Bell broke his silence about the hullabaloo surrounding the book to ABC’s George Stephanopoulos on “Good Morning America,” ensuring a very large audience has been introduced to his thoughts (which weren’t conveyed concretely) and his book:
Despite talking in very abstract terms, it seems clear that ABC did run with a message: the headlines it’s using for the Bell interview on its website are, “Pastor Claims Hell Does not Exist,“ and ”Hell…No?”
You can see Townhall blogger Greg Hengler‘s take on Bell’s ABC appearance over on the blog.
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Comments (349)
ADNIL
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:24pmHow do you know if you are a dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac?
You lie in bed awake all night wondering if there is a Dog.
Report Post »douglassoileau
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:05pmWho is this fals propher rob bell ?/ never heard of him…….i don’t think he can read very well.. I don’t have a problem whith his belief but to get wider recognition he has to act and say stupid things contrary to Christian teaching and beliefs…… After thousand of years of knowlegable and intelligent ministers you will get an idiot on the block, another Jime Jones and David Koresh……………….
Report Post »TOSKIMAN
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:23pmOpen the gates – let the convicted roam the street. We are so sorry to those that were jailed based upon our “opinion.”
Report Post »He (GOD) is not willing that any parish, but that all come to repentance. Unfortunately, His will and our will do not always see eye to eye. God is a gentlemen and a just one at that. Make the choice today- whom you will serve? Simple, simple.
Eblaze44
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:21amGod is NOT a gentleman. you better go back and re read that Bible you are thumping. Just take the first five books and start where the book starts. then tell me God is a gentle man.
yep. everyone here apparently, even I, have my own belief based on “the Book”. and ALL “christian” religions have cherry picked what they choose, and thrown the rest on the “well, that was back then” pile. But then, it also comes down to which version – read that translation – you got in your thumpin’ hand as well. Let’s see they started cherry picking what was even going into the book binding about a couple thousand years ago – and heaven foefend if you didn’t believe what those in power wanted you to believe. they didn’t just cast you out, they killed you.
IF there is a God, and the more I read here the more I begin to doubt it, his eyebrows must be raised and he must be shaking his head in total bewilderment at where this has all gone. and, just my opinion, it’s gone to Hell. According to YOUR book, he already gave up on the human race once, threatened to do it again in Moses day.
By their fruits shall you know them. (certainly not by anyone’s words).
Report Post »tompaineknowsthescore
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:19pmgod most probably doesn‘t exists so i wouldn’t worry about this
Report Post »P3ngnr
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:56pmWell arent we the gambling type.
Report Post »I personally dont have the luxury to doubt.
I was personally visited by Satan and Jesus in the same day and I was not dying nor sleeping.
All I can say is open your heart and let Jesus in, God has given us the choice to choose our fates.
He is not invasive, he will wait outside your door until you invite him in.
I am not perfect and I am not a preacher just wanted to let you know what I have seen.
Islesfordian
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:52pmIf there is no God then there can be no such thing as right and wrong, good or evil, or even beautiful and ugly. There is only the universe, and a baby starving to death in a ditch is no better or worse than a laughing child. Stuff just IS.
If that reality resonates with your soul, er, I mean your collective synaptic matrices, then you are one sad individual.
If, instead, you find that picture repellant and insist that there is such a thing as beauty and truth you will have to find some rational explanation for its existence. The vast majority of human being now and throughout time have found that explanation in God.
Report Post »DaveOregon
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:19pmMost Western verisons of Hell came from Dante. Pope Paul said there wa no hell along Dante’s line – hell is the living without the the love/light of God – like being alone in complete darkness with no sensation or anything- the Void.
Report Post »I too would like to believe the Manson’s, hitlers, Moa’s of the world end up in some godforsaken Void with nothing but their own crimes to watch/listen/participate in for eternity (or one longdamn time anyway). But no one knows. The issue then of sin – is not being aware/reunited with God and his/her/it’s (no disrespect intended but a gender for God seems wierd to me) light/awareness/love – whichever descriptive term you like. So – there are ramifications for living a less then moral life. Our inability to grasp what the loss of God’s love/light/awareness would be like led to Dante and others trying to describe it in the most descriptive manner to get the point across. Living without God’s love/light “would be like” – . I God on a throne and are their Pearly Gates – no, but that would be a valid description if a human with our miniscule minds tried to describe what they “saw” when in the presence of God, etc.
AuntieLibby
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:19pmMy only question ive always had about god and hell is this..If all things are created by god,and all things happen because god made it happen,Why would he then turn around and punish anyone by sending them to hell,if in fact all things happen because god intended it to happen? makes no sense. The god i know and love is a loving god,and wouldnt want to punish his children for anything he made happen.
Report Post »P3ngnr
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:03pmWhat he has done Libby is given us the choice to determine our fates.
Report Post »If you have kids just imagine all the hope you have for their future
Sometimes their decision hurts us deep inside, but they have to live thier own lives.
I know it hurts him when we make the wrong decisions.
I should mention I was visited by both Satan and Jesus in one day, and no I was not dead, dying, sleeping or on drugs.
Its kinda hard to put into words.
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul and your mind”
Islesfordian
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:45pmYou’re forgetting free will, the most precious thing in the universe. We are not robots doing exactly what God wants. With that freedom come the natural consequences. if we choose God we have life. If we choose to reject God we have death. Would god be loving if he MADE us love him? Who seriously LOVES an automaton and it wouldn’t be true love coming from us.
Report Post »Highland
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:18pmRob Bell, Carlton Pearson, whatever. Anyone can make up his own “truth,” but we’d better be looking at what God says, and not these heretics.
Report Post »johnny blaze
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:17pmJesus said thier would be false profits and those who came in his name. This guy said we point at others and say thier going to hell. Every one sins but we must repent and ask Gods to forgive us. If someone dont believe in Christ they will go to hell. Jesus said the only way to my father is through me. God loves us all and wants us to love and trust him. Being a christian dont mean you arer perfect and with out flaw, but we need Gods help everyday with this world we live in. I pray everyone will find the Lord.
Report Post »Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:14pm@ Code Green:
That’s a nice job breaking the 2nd Commandment: Don’t make God into your own image.
To say that there are two different gods of the Old & New Testaments is doing exactly that. In fact, if you re-read the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20, you will see that God describes Himself in the way you just portrayed Him as only exclusively occurring in the New Testament. Or how about Ezekiel 33, where He says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked?
With all due love and respect, those who say that there are two different gods displayed in the two separate testaments speak out of ignorance of the entire Word Itself. The same love spoken of in John 3:16 is the same love that God continually demonstrates throughout the Old Testament in His constant promises of a Messiah.
Based on your statement, the next thing you know, you’ll be excluding the book of Revelation from the New Testament, because that’s not the “God” you know; however, a true understanding of the entire Word makes it clear that the God of justice in Revelation, is the same God in all of the other 65 books. Please stop creating your own god to suit your deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9). Open your eyes and see that God is the same, one true, loving and just God from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22!
By the way, from where do you think Jesus and His disciples quoted Scripture in the New Testament? When they did their daily devotions and meditations, what were they reading? Oh, that’s right: THE OLD TESTAMENT!! It’s ALL one Book, the Bible, and ONE God! Not two books or two gods!
Report Post »jeffwgiants
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:46pmYour ignorance of your own Bible is astonishing. Psalms 16:9-11; 1 Peter 3:18-20
Report Post »Geoff
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:06pmThat is absolutely not what the 2nd commandment says in any translation I have ever heard. What bible are you reading out of? The New International JOSIAH914 version?
Report Post »Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:22pm@ JEFFWGIANTS
You’re embarassing yourself. What exactly do you think those cherry-picked Scripture passages prove? Exactly. Hey! We can all do it, too. Let’s see: Obadiah 1:2 or Psalm 7:11 or Proverbs 20:5.
It’s easy to take verses or passages and make them say what you want them to say. However, the true handler of Scripture knows that Scripture cannot disagree and contradict itself. You must base your theology on the collective, not cherry-picked, distorted verses. Nice try, though.
Report Post »HerMajestysThunder
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:30pm@Josiah914
Report Post »“By their fruits ye shall know them.” I’m disappointed in the condescending and egregiously misleading manner of your discussion. God is my source for truth and I will go to Him for answers about Christ and His gospel. “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, meekness…” I do not feel the Spirit of Christ in your words.
VISITORNUMBER3
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:12pmHe said all that to still say….nothing.
And did you notice how when George asked him a question that called for a specific answer, he responded with stuff like “I like to think in terms of…“ or ”I believe we choose…” ??
Rob Bell can keep believing what he believes about what the bible says about heaven and hell and I’ll keep believing that faith in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone is the way to heaven…
The way I look at it, if I’m right, I’m in….and if he‘s right I’m still in…But if I’m right he, on the other hand, is wrong…
God is holy. We are not. That is what causes the separation between God and man. It’s not some score God wants to settle with people because they sin. Sin is the condition that makes it that way. Jesus Christ is the ONLY cure for that condition.
Report Post »Nobamazone
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:50pmhe avioded specific answers because he is in this to sell his book, obviously you must buy the book to find out what is in it… HEY Pelosi are you missing any dems??? He is hiding out in MI pretending to bring the word of God, please come get him, we have enough problems here already
Report Post »Bronco II
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:11pmWell here I go he is right HELL does not exist at this time because we have not had the second coming of Christ and have not been judged when that day comes then we’ll know who goes where but everyone right now that has passed is in heaven waiting like us for THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.Our GOD is a GOD of the LIVING not the DEAD.If we study the Bible the way we should we all would know DEATH is one of satans many names such as Lucifer,Serpent that’s why people should say to anyone your going to hell your passing judgement and we do not have that right and no there is no HELL YET.I know I’m the crazy one but so be it.But if people want to listen to whoever that‘s their right too it’s called FREE WILL given by GOD.
Report Post »Chicago Ray
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:10pm“The evangelicals would be out of a job if it were true that there is no hell.”
and the lunatic fringe God Hating Commie lefties are in for a big surprise if there is huh? Just go ahead and keep living a life of debauchery and decadence and see what happens, or are you already one of those testing THAT theory?
Report Post »Pigfarmer
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:10pmHell Does exist…. Yea Verily… it is resurved for satan and all his liberals..
Pig farmers United
Report Post »NateD
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:09pmThe answer to these questions is simple: Jesus Christ or Hell. There is no other way.
Report Post »Geoff
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:02pmI think your belief that you have it all figured out is grounds enough to rule your opinion out. The bible you read now was in no way compiled directly by the hands of God. It was compiled by men, fallible men. It was then passed down from years and years and translated into many different languages before it landed on your night stand so that you can pass judgement on those all around you, simply because you heard your pastor’s translation and read the words yourself.
And yes, I’ve heard the verse that speaks of the bible being the very breath of God. I do agree with that but on a very different level. I do not take the entire bible literally but have no issue with those who do. Men are created in the image of God but are we all gods? This is an example of how translations can be deceiving. Jesus himself said, “chose for yourself who’s yolk you will put on”.
I believe there will be more judgement for your bull headed, arrogant view of religion than for those who chose to “Question with boldness everything, even the existence of God”.
In the end, you are human and so is your pastor. To believe you hold the answers is to believe you are God (or god-like), and to believe you are God is blasphemy. You may wish to reconsider your position.
Report Post »Jezreel
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:08pmIn the book of Peter, there is a special place in hell reserved with the fallen angels where false teachers and hirelings will go.
Report Post »curmudgeon60
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:04pmAN ETERNITY seperated from JESUS CHRIST, you savior, lord and coming king (soon) IS HELL!!
Report Post »vennoye
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:38pmThat is exactly what makes it hell. On earth, his blessings like rain fall on the just and unjust. Hell is totally void of any of his goodness or light. So all you have is evil.
Report Post »Creestof
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:00pmI think the whole “Where were you when I… yadda, yadda” covers it all.
Above and beyond that…what is the problem here? That the guy does not believe there IS a Hell? Or that he thinks those that don’t believe in Jesus or Christianity will get into Heaven as well?
Would you be upset upon arriving in Heaven and finding a ton of athiests, Muslims, Satanists there as well? Would you feel put out upon learning Heaven is NOT the exclusive country club you thought it was, and that all are welcome? And if you are about to answer “Yes” to those, does that indicate you yourself are not a good candidate for Heaven, since we are suppose to forgive others if we expect to be forgiven by HIM for our own sins?
Report Post »teahugger
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:00pmUpset, no. Surprised, yes! It is not my job to judge whether or not someone else is going to heaven or hell. But since I believe that Jesus’ teachings about heaven and hell are true, then the only way to the Father is through Him. And if He is the only way in, then everyone not following Him is NOT in. If one doesn‘t believe Jesus’ words, then one is making a choice…but by the same token, one also wouldn’t give a crap what I OR Jesus has to say. (or the preacher/author). Called free will. No need to get my panties in a bunch over someone else’s beliefs.
Report Post »VRW Conspirator
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:00pmeven if you believe in the new Testament God…a vengeful God that isn’t menacing but does punish when needed like a loving Father….
Report Post »there is still the book of Revelation….there is a described Hell….the enemy will be bound for a 1000 years and his followers cast into a Lake of Fire… seems pretty HELLISH to me….
Marylou7
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:29pmMe too and if you’re going to believe in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John then you have to believe in the book of Revelation.
Report Post »SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:58pmThere is no evidence for any afterlife.
Gold Coin & Economic News
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:16pmAnd there is evidence there isn’t an afterlife?
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:55pm@SEASONOFREASON ~~~ Yes, there is evidence of afterlife.
1. JESUS CHRIST was crucified, died and was buried. On the 3rd day HE arose from the grave and HE sits at the right hand of GOD and there HE intervenes on our behalf.
2. I saw GOD work in my dying father in order to communicate with us before his death even when my father was comatose and on all sorts of machines. That’s a wonderful story for another time. My dad also appeared to me in dreams immediately after his death. He was well and healthy and much younger.
3. I have heard many more stories from other CHRISTIANS with whom GOD has revealed a foretaste of Heaven for HIS “kids”.
An afterlife is very real. Count on it.
Report Post »S G Applebee
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:38pmKickagrandma,
Report Post »And what about all the Muslims, Hindu’s, Buddhists, Taoists…etc, who claim to have had near death experiences? Don’t their stories count? Why is your story true and valid, but their stories false and not valid?
SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:32pmAnecdotal stories do not make evidence.
tiredoftaxes
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:38amThere is plenty of evidence that the Bible is true. For instance, in the book of Job chapter 38 verse 16 God says to Job “Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?” If the Bible was just made up by human beings…how did they even KNOW there were recesses in the deep?! I’m certain that they were not capable of reaching the ocean floor to see those “springs in the deep”. There are many more physical evidences that the Bible is true. If the Bible is true, then there is an afterlife. And “watchtheotherhand” has it right. If you believe the Bible is true, then you must believe that Hell is real and is a place of eternal fire. You also can‘t believe in a Heaven on earth and you can’t believe that you can go on sinning against God willfully and still get to go to Heaven. Second Peter 3:10 says “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens (sky, space etc.) will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and Godliness?” Read the whole chapter and read I Thessalonians 4:17…those who are in Christ will meet the Lord in the air and will be with Him there forever. NO HEAVEN ON EARTH. NO UNGODLY CONDUCT. If we believe that we can just say “Lord Jesus come into my life” and then go on sinning, well, that just isn’t even reasonable. If I say I want some person in my life and then I go on living outside of that person’s feelings, ideas, desires and just go about my merry way…do I really want that person in my life?
Report Post »This so-called preacher is doomed. He‘s preaching a doctrine that’s not in the Bible. Galatians 1:8 “But even if we (the apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed.” So that curses Joseph Smith and any and all other preachers who preach outside the scope of the Holy Spirit delivered message which was once and for all delivered. The truth is in the Bible. Anyone can find out how to be a New Testament Christian by reading the book of Acts.
Redneckpatriot1776
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:54pmWow, it sucks to be him if he’s wrong…
Report Post »Geoff
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:49pmI don’t see how there could be any repercussion for asking questions of the all knowing creator. I don’t believe you are going to intimidate him. You would think that the repercussions would be for those who believe but never asks as to why or where they got their beliefs from. Those are the ones who could blindly, and most often arrogantly, be led like sheep led to the slaughter.
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:33pm@redneckpatriot1776 ~~~ he’s not only wrong; he is eternally wrong.
And, more than that, he is leading others away from GOD rather than TO GOD…. his punishment will not be swift and it will be sure.
So not follow that man (the evangelist in this article).
Report Post »S G Applebee
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:50pmRedneck, but it will also suck for you if you’re wrong, no? Would you hold your current beliefs if you were born in America BEFORE the arrival of the Europeans?
Report Post »338lapua
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:31pmThis might help.
Report Post »http://www.milwaukeeacchurch.org/Audio/download.php/?file=2011-03-13_morning.wma
SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:53pmThere is no evidence for any afterlife
Report Post »SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:59pmEvidence is not based on opinion.
Report Post »marvlus
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:04pmTell that to those that have died and come back to life.
Report Post »Nobamazone
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:09pmwhat type of evidence would prove it to you?
Report Post »seriously, I am very curious, what type of proof exactly would count??
Born In MA
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:09pmWhat “evidence” would you be requiring?
Report Post »I have for fact experienced evidence of afterlife.
Arkansan by Choice
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:11pmThas why they call it Faith
Report Post »chfields62
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:17pmThe point is rather moot, since there is no way to say definitively one way or the other. We will all find out when we die. Then and only then, will the truth be known.
Report Post »Creestof
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:19pmEvidence would = knowing…and then everyone would just obey the “rules” to guarantee their place in Heaven. But, God wants us to obey his laws and love him on our own…because we believe in him. That is why he gave us “free will” and rarely intervenes in what we bring upon ourselves.
Those who don’t believe, and would prefer to think various chemicals came together at just the right moment, in just the right way…well, hold up your dinosaur bones all you want…but not until you gather a dozen super computers to help you calculate the odds of life starting the way you believe it did…and bring a lunchbox…it’ll be a long wait.
Report Post »Nobamazone
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:41pmseason? come on… seriously, what type of proof would work for you??
Report Post »you silence is quite telling….
people who are quite obviously dead coming back minutes, or more, later and saying they did experience an afterlife apparently does not do it, since there are many of those on record… so what evidence? they would need to come back scorched? with a note from God? or would those too be called an opinion in your mind?
S G Applebee
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:45pmThis is true. People who have “died” and “came back” were never completely dead. After a person “dies”, electrical impulses are still shooting through the brain for quite a while. As long as there is still brain activity, the person isn’t truly dead.
Report Post »Now, if a person died for a couple of hours (without being frozen of course), and came back, I would like to hear what he had to say. However,…
…doesn’t anyone find it just a little to coincidental that a person who has a near death experience always has the type of experience a person living in that time, place, culture…etc, would have? Christians have Christian types of experiences, Buddhists have Buddhist types of experiences, Hindu’s have…etc. Hmmm…
SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:11pmSorry I don’t sit on this website all day. Something that can be tested. Anecdotal evidence will not suffice.
Report Post »Showtime
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:13pm@SeasonOfReason
Report Post »Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:59pm
Evidence is not based on opinion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What brought that on?
Was it my comment,”That’s you opinion” which was removed?
SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:59pmYes, that is what I was referring to.
Report Post »Hugh Akston II
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:43pmThere is no evidence that there isn’t either. That is why faith is required. Still God has written his laws on man’s heart. So what we have here is the serpent in the form of this “pastor” offing once again the fruit of the poisoned tree in the form the possibility of living a life without consequences. Funny how it is so appealing that we want to live our lives how we choose, but do not want the consequences of the choice. Christ died on the cross so that so that each man may have Adam’s choice and God abides the choice of man. Out of love a path to Heaven is made but God does not separate His other attributes Holiness and Justice in order to extend this love. (See A.W. Tozer’s Knowledge of the Holy) His Holiness cannot abide sin, so those that find themselves in Hell have placed themselves there by rejecting Christ and the cleansing of His blood.
Report Post »SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:57pmThe idea of no afterlife does not remove the consequences to our actions. We face consequences from our fellow man while we live.
Hugh Akston II
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:11pmAnd who exactly heald Moa and Stalin accountable for their actions?
Report Post »SeasonOfReason
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:25pmI guess I can concede that some people can get away from facing the consequences of their actions. It’s a shame, and it‘s up to everyone to try and make sure that doesn’t happen
Report Post »intermezzo
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:57amThere is a preponderance of evidence of an after-life https://members.humaneventsonline.com/order.php?offer=1835
Report Post »HippoNips
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 8:53amNo evidence?
Report Post »Millions of people say they have seen iit. I would call that evidence
trhoma6432
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:53pmChrist, released my tormented soul from the depths of Hell. I do not need the “great deceiver” to tell me otherwise!
Report Post »Showtime
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:53pmAmen!
Report Post »Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:53pmMormons also pretty much say that everyone’s going to some form of heaven eventually, unless, of course, you quit on being a Mormon. That, for them, conveniently, is the unforgivable, most damnable sin! Rob Bell is similarly heretical, but, at least, he didn’t just start plagiarizing and making things up like Joseph Smith did.
rainmakker
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:18pmYou’re so funny. Trying despritely to start a fight and have no takers. You should try making up something about another religion, bash their leaders, and see if they will bite.
Report Post »jeffwgiants
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:43pmI don’t think you are qualified to speak for Mormons. Is this story about Mormons? What did they have to do with this guy? It’s his book. Talk about him.
Report Post »Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:54pmThanks, RAINMAKKER, for responding. My self-esteem is higher now because of it.
As for even equating Mormonism to any other religion is the truly funny piece.
Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism — at least they didn’t directly steal from Christianity and make it their cult.
Even Joseph Smith himself said on many occasions that Mormonism is NOT Christianity; yet, his followers today try to blur the two in order to deceive people and soften the correct view about it being a cult. Do your history and religion checks, my friend. Mormonism is direct theft from Christianity, as well as Masonry (which is not, let’s be clear, a religion either) and its ceremonial rituals (which take place in their “secret” temples).
Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:02pm@ JEFFWGIANTS
Thank you for your question! Rob Bell has everything to do with MORMONISM! Both claim to be preachers of Christ and Christianity, both refuse to submit to the doctrines and theology of true Scripture, and both rely on extrabiblical sources to propagate false gospels!
The Bible talks often of these false prophets, and we, if we are true followers of Christ, are to call them out for their heresies, just as Jesus Himself did with the heretics of His day. We are His church; His ambassadors on earth. We are to call out error at every turn.
Oh, and by the way, for forums just like this, I train to be well-versed in both Mormonism and Rob Bell’s neo-emergent “doctrines.” I think I can speak on these matters, but thanks for passing judgment on me without knowing that.
Report Post »bikerr
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:49pmWhen a mormon swears does he yell out“ OH JOSEPH SMITH”!
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:05am“Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism — at least they didn’t directly steal from Christianity and make it their cult.”
Actually, Josiah914, Mohammad DID incorporate a lot of Christian concepts into Islam. Christianity was dominant in Egypt and the Levant, though it is clear from the Quran that Mohammad didn’t understand very much of it. He probably had only a passing knowledge, equal to the knowledge of Islam that most in the West have now.
Report Post »End The Fed
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:50pmDamn it!! Soros isn’t going to hell!?
Report Post »13th Imam
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:19pmWhere does “Born Jewish ” , turned ?????? Soros go when he assumes room temperature??
Who cares Nevermind
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:50pmNeed Faith before Love can work.
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:25pmWhiteFang…thank you for your passage in John5:28-29. It is the defining scripture to this argument. Josiah you are so off base with your comments about Mormons, you should take your drivel to another board. As far as Brother Bell is concerned, the media is making more of this translation than Bell is.
Seriously, all Christian based religions: The way to tell if you have come unto Christ is how you treat others…nothing else will be substituted. Stop with the scripture bashing, religion bashing, and condemning of others. This is why your message falls short to non-believers.
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:05pmLibertyGoddess,
Report Post »Thank you. I try so hard to publish the actual words in the Bible and so much of the time it is like speaking into the air. I know Bearfoot also makes the same effort. As for me, I am ready to give up here on the Blaze. Too many just want to state their opinions without any research and ridicule Bible truth. They love their hell fire and no one is going to change their mind. Not even the Bible.
Anyway, thank you for your kind words.
FormerLib
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:25am@ WHITEFANG
What good does it do you to ‘publish the actual words of the Bible” if you take them out of context, ignore their relationship to the totality of scripture, and thus remove the meaning from them? You are doing what we called ‘isogesis’ back in bible college- starting with a desired conclusion to prove a belief, and then cherry picking and reading into the text what you want it to say. If you know so much about scripture, you should then know what it has to say about those who twist the word, and present a false gospel resulting in people being led astray.
Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits….
2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.
Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:56pmFormerlib, how are all your scripture citations warning against false prophets any kind of argument? They don’t do anything to establish what ARE false teachings. Who here is saying, “Hell no! We should listen to false teachers and take them seriously. We shouldn’t be worried about being deceived” I don’t see anyone saying that.
If you are concerned that verse are being taken out of context then point out the right context. THAT is the argument that we should be having.
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:47pmWell, here we go again over this matter.
I will say this much only…let each person study out the questions and topics for themselves and then make up their own individual minds. Each one of us will be accountable for our choice, and our actions when the judgment comes in the next world.
May God and the Spirit guide you into Light and into Truth.
Report Post »Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:54pmDon‘t Mormons also pretty much say that everyone’s going to some form of heaven eventually? (unless, of course, you quit being a Mormon, which, for them, conveniently, is the unforgivable, most damnable sin!) Rob Bell is similarly heretical, but, at least, he didn’t just start plagiarizing and making things up like Joseph Smith did.
Report Post »cessna152
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 3:59pmEquality for all… even in Heaven? Wait… if everyone goes to heaven, then wouldn’t it just be call “earth”?
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:04pmDon’t know about you, but I saw lots of touchy-feely with a little scripture spinkled in, not a lot of substantive argument in the interview. Won’t read the book.
Report Post »If there’s no punishment for sin, why command anyone not to sin?
That‘s a separate question from whether it’s fair to consign CERTAIN people there. And Christians know that it’s not for them to judge, but rather to seek to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth by any and all means which respect the liberty of conscience of the individual. This guy hasn’t a scriptural leg to stand on, I’m afraid.
excelizen (a goal, not a title!)
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:05pmWell said…
Report Post »Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:06pmThe MSM may WISH Hell does not exist, so they can keep up the God-less living, without guilt or repercussions. Puppies and perfect hair? That’s his heaven? Me thinks he got his reverend certificate from the same place as JJ and Big Al.
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:10pmJosiah,
Mormons believe there’s a judgment and a hell. And that everyone will have a chance, either during life or in a waiting state after death but before judgment, to accept or reject Christ so that the judgement can be fair. At judgment, in LDS doctrine, people will be rewarded for everything good that they did, and punished for everything wrong they did during their lifetimes. There’s a vast difference between the difference in degree of glory of reward Mormons believe in, and the absence of any punishment at all that this guy is promoting. And that’s beyond the fact that such doctrine, LDS as it may be, is Biblically justified. It‘s explained and elucidated in Smith’s writings, but its justification is deeply rooted in the Bible.
Gold Coin & Economic News
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:14pmMost people are asking the wrong question. The real question is, why would God let anyone go to Heaven?
SlimnRanger
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:16pmGod has given us freewill,we can live anyway we wish,comit all kinds of sin if thats what we want to do or live for Christ Jesus and live a Holy moral life it‘s our choice but in the end it’s Gods choice,God does not send anyone to hell,we send ourselves there ,as for me i would hate leaving this world beliving there is no hell or Heaven,so i have prepared my heart to be with Jesus for an entenity,yes there is a hell and i believe that with all my heart,and people like this so called preacher are nothing more than a false prophet and if dosen’t repent he will be in hell one day for falsely leading people astray,May God have mercy on his soul
Report Post »Austin from boston
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:21pmyou violate the first-commandment-7-days a week,just click above to find out and my research also tells me that that first shall be last & the last shall be first; when you catch-up with your pal show-time tell her to bite me because she could not afford to buy me boston-cream pie with 2-cent remarks 7days a week; there is a book called “how your mind can make You well @ fhu.com; go ther after scanning & get back to me with results; ………..GOD bless everyone from within or suffer; i am a good-thief on the cross & pray this nation will join; JESUS-CHRIST Shall always be my rabbi,there is no other Way to the Way; 2012 may be toooooooo late;>>>>>>>>>>>>
Report Post »LAM2
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:45pmIf all go to heaven upon death, then it seems there was no reason or purpose for Jesus’ sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection. Believing this pastor’s assertions requires one to ignore most of the New Testament and a lot of the Old Testament. Many people who came face-to-face with Jesus turned away and abandoned him, because his message was difficult to accept. It’s no different today. This pastor is asking us to abandon common sense and exercise far more faith than I can muster.
Report Post »So many pastors in American are afraid of offending their flock, having empty pews or receiving criticism that they dilute God’s Word by talking exclusively about love and prosperity. They do a disservice to their church members by pretending that God does not care about their choices or how they live; it’s like serving candy to your kids when they really need protein. It‘s no wonder so few believers in this country experience God’s power in their lives and have succumbed to the secular culture.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:46pmHeretic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »M-Theory
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:47pmOK Josiah914 calm it on down with the Mormon trash-talk and stick to the subject, that kind of crap defeats the purpose of civilzed dialogue. The New Testament says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions…” Who knows but that every mansion in heaven (even the ones that are more like a small house or shack) isn’t better than this existance and this IS hell? It sure feels like hell on some days. Satan surely reigns here now.
Report Post »Jim S
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:50pmJosiah914…good point
JC said better you burn in Gehenna, the waste pile that burned outside Jerusalem, than sin against God.
Report Post »So the Son of God said that there is punishment, a hell , for leading a sinful life. I’ll take his word over the preacher. If I’m wrong all I did was not hurt anyone in my life.
Gold Coin & Economic News
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:51pmInteresting and completely devoid of anything solid. Sorry Rob, you didn’t answer any direct question George asked. Yes, Rob, there is a REAL heaven and not everyone is going to get there. Please READ your Bible and stop being so touchy feely that no one can nail you down on anything.
Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Report Post »Herman_Cain
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 4:54pmJoseph Smith was the first to reveal God’s teaching that people who never heard of Jesus in this life have an opportunity to accpet him in the afterlife and go to heaven. The great racist lie that most colored people are going to hell, because they never learned much about Jesus, is a protestant teaching.
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:15pmNot a “Kool-aid” drinker Josiah, just setting the record straight with fairness. If you’re going to attack, you do so with a position of strength when you understand the other side’s position fairly. I’ll be glad to debate the finer points of Mormon doctrine with you, in another forum, but I promise I’ll wipe the floor with you because I understand it and can represent it fairly. You, sir, don’t. Your history is flawed, your interpretations are flawed, your facts are cherry-picked, and your agenda is obvious. But even with all that, I promise if we ever debate, I will never misrepresent any of YOUR beliefs. It’s the Christian thing to do.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:20pmThe word Hell was translates into the English Bible from 3 distinct and different words.
1. Hades (Greek) i.e. Grave or whole in the ground (this is the place we go for our first death)
2. Gehenna (Greek) i.e. This word is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky Valley of Hinnom, which lies just outside Jerusalem. It was the place where refuse from the city was burned up. Trash, filth and the dead bodies of animals and despised criminals were thrown into the fires of gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom. Ordinarily, everything thrown into this valley was destroyed by fire—burned up. Christ used gehenna to picture the fate of unrepentant sinners! (this Hell is where you go in the second or eternal death at the Great White Throne judgement; this second death occurs only to those who refuse to repent and follow God’s ways during the second resurrection); the body in this Hell will be completely consumes by fire never to be thought of again, God will not make people suffer forever because He is love
Jesus says: “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of [judgment]” (John 5:28-29, RAV).
There is an accounting for our behavior in this life! Every human being who has ever lived will ultimately give an accounting and be in a resurrection.
3. Tartaroo (Greek) 2Pet 2:4 the word hell here refers not to a place but a condition. The condition of restraint that God imposed upon those angles which rebelled against Him and followed Satan.
God Is Love
Why do so many people have a false concept of “hell”? Because they have been deceived and do not understand God’s overall purpose for creating mankind.
God’s purpose for man is that he develop the holy, righteous character of God, which will make him fit to receive the precious gift of eternal life. But God created man of the dust of the ground, subject to death, so that if he failed to develop righteous character, he could—unlike Satan and the immortal angels who sinned and became demons—be released from his misery by death.
God has no desire to torment or to torture anyone. God is love (1 John 4:8). He created us mortal for our own good. He will condemn no one because of ignorance, and will see to it that every person ultimately learns the truth and has a real opportunity for salvation upon sincere repentance, no matter how terrible his or her sins have been. •
Report Post »HillBillySam1
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:33pmSo this “Evangelical Pastor” is saying that Jesus died on the cross in vain?? If everyone goes to heaven anyways, why should Jesus have come here to endure a cruel and agonizing death on the cross?? If everyone goes to heaven, who needs to be “saved”??
The Bible warns us of such “teachers”…….don’t be deceived…..
Josiah914
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:34pm@ HAPPYSTRETCHEDTHIN
Your last statement says it all.
Before you do any wiping of the floor in an arena you only think you have some form of expertise as a “Christian,” you may want to consult Joseph Smith himself, and see that he never equated Mormonism and Christianity. That evolution has only come about in the last century. He started, err, I mean, was only “called” to, these revelations because Christianity had become so “perverted” and “corrupted.” According to his own teachings, he wouldn’t be calling himself a Christian.
Maybe you should wipe the floor with him first before you start saying that anything you can do is the “Christian” thing to do. He might take you to task over your language.
Tough talk for someone who doesn’t even seem to know the basics of Mr. Smith and his original cause. Of course, you can always cherry-pick his teachings, too, and find what you like and don’t. Even Mormon “leaders” in the last 30-40 years have had to conjure up new revelations to soften up the original teachings of their “founder.” I have never seen any of Jesus’ disciples in Scripture ever having to cover up His Words or change His message to make it politically-correct for the culture of today or to keep the billions of dollars rolling in.
Rob Bell is no genuine follower of the Bible’s Christ, but he, like Joseph Smith, doesn’t like what Jesus had to say: so he’ll create his own.
Bearfoot
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:36pmWe and I have discussed this matter previously. By the comments stated so far, it seems everyone is just as confused as before.
Report Post »I can only suggest now, that we should research the word “hell” to determine where it came from and how it compares with the original words “sheol” and “hades”.
Find the meaning of the original words and then we can begin to accurately understand where we go when we die.
bikerr
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:40pm@snow —– How right you are.
Report Post »gman46
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:43pmYes, it’s about a personal relationship with the Lord our God. Each will be different.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:47pmJBLAZE did a good job in her comment. Read it again.
Report Post »FormerLib
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:50pmIf everyone goes to heaven, then there was no need for a sacrifice for sin, rendering the crucifixion and resurrection irrelevant. Yes, Jesus died once for all, but everyone must acknowledge Him as Lord. I never understood the belief so many have that Jesus is just another of many ways to God, as if He would experience a humiliating and excruciating death on a cross just to provide us with another option.
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 5:58pmbearfoot,
Report Post »So, to be accurate whenever we talk about this we just stop using the word “hell” and use the word “grave” instead.
If we did that one thing, confusion would end. John 5:28-29
HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:22pmIn case anyone’s seriously considering Josiah, I have declined to debate him here, but wish there was a secure way to exchange contact information and talk in a forum better designed for doctrinal disagreements.
Report Post »For now I just have to say he is making accusations without a shred of honesty or understanding behind them. His central idea that Smith didn’t consider Mormonism Christian is false by any objective measure, and I’m just having a hard time letting it slide without saying at least that much. Be free to disagree, but don’t swallow his “facts” wholesale, they’re just not true. My Mormon friends are sad when someone like him misrepresents their beliefs so heinously.
He and I agree on Pastor Bell’s heresy. I’ll keep my comments to THAT topic from here on out.
WhiteFang
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:22pmI knew I saw this posted before. The following is the comment from bearfoot I found really interesting:
Bearfoot
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:36pm
The Bible writer Paul offered hope of relief from that “last enemy,” death. He wrote: “Death is to be brought to nothing.“ ”The last enemy to be abolished is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:26, The New English Bible ) Why could Paul be so sure of that? Because he had been taught by one who had been raised from the dead, Jesus Christ. (Acts 9:3-19) That is also why Paul could write: “Since death is through a man [Adam], resurrection of the dead is also through a man [Jesus Christ]. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.”—1 Corinthians 15:21, 22.
“Hell” is an english word and we know what it means in english. But the original words are Hebrew sheol and Greek hades. Sheol and hades both mean the grave or pit. The original words do not suggest a place of fire.
Report Post »S G Applebee
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:25pmWhat’s amazing to me are the religious megalomaniacs who actually believe they have awswers to unanswerable questions.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:33pmIt seems some people are quibbling over the meaning of “hell” which, BTW, they are correct, but they fail to recognize the rest of scripture which clearly tells us that those who do not choose Jesus Christ will suffer ETERNAL DAMNATION. That would be in the lake of fire. It would seem foolhardy to me to twist scripture simply because you do not want to face the fate of the unevangelized. I do not have an answer for this, I would like to believe that God, in His sovereignty, placed people in this predicament that He knew would not choose Him given the chance. This certainly does not satisfy, but I do not question God or His justness. I do know that the Bible says, in no uncertain terms, that if you do not know Christ then you will not see eternal life. This clearly means that some will not see life, otherwise why even mention it? Further, as has been said at least three times so far in this first block but remains unanswered by JZS and Bearclaw, why on earth would Jesus even be born a man, suffer the death He did, and be resurrected? Your theology makes His life, and death, meaningless. Unless, of course, you do not believe in His deity.
Thanks guys, but no thanks. I will stick with the clear teachings of Scripture over your flawed theologies. :-)
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 6:57pmTrolltrainer,
You said those who do not choose Jesus Christ will suffer ETERNAL DAMNATION.
This is true but your using the term eternal damnation is reflecting your belief that they will suffer in fire.
Report Post »The damnation they will suffer is the death they will receive by not accepting the Christ as their Saviour and King. In God’s Kingdom, those in the grave will be resurrected and given a chance to receive accurate knowledge of the role Jesus has played in their life. If they would choose to not appreciate our Lord’s Kingship over them, then they will be put away from the rest of decent humanity. They would undergo the “second death” non-existence forever.
No life equals eternal death. No fire!
FormerLib
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:26pm“if anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire [the lake of fire], and they are burned” (John 15:6-8).
If that’s not hell, I don‘t know what you’d call it.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:28pmThis weekend I heard an excellent story about a wealthy landowner who wanted to teach his debtors about the grace of God and salvation (it’s a true story, I just can’t remember the name of the landowner – I believe he was a lord during feudal times in England, but am not sure). Anyway, the wealthy landowner sent out word to all of the people who owed him money that he would forgive the debts of anyone who showed up in front of his desk before Noon on the following Saturday. The only requirement was that they bring a piece of paper showing the total amount of what they owed. When Saturday morning came, many people showed up at the landowner’s office, but they just mulled around outside the open door while the landowner sat behind his desk. At about 5 minutes to noon, a man with a piece of paper came running down the street, through the crowd, through the open door of the office right up to the landowner’s desk. He handed the piece of paper to the landowner and was told to sit down in a chair in front of the desk. The landowner asked the man what he was doing running into his office and the debtor replied that he was responding to the landowner’s offer to wipe out his debt. The landowner asked the man, “So you believed me when I said that I would wipe out your debt if you showed up here before noon today?” “Yes, I believed you,” said the debtor. Then the landowner asked him, “Are you a good man, do you think you deserve to be forgiven of such a large debt?” “You never said anything about being good, or being deserving,” replied the debtor, “you just said to show up with a piece of paper that has the amount of my debt written on it, so here I am.” The landowner took out his pen, wrote “PAID IN FULL” across the piece of paper and handed the receipt back to the debtor who lept out of the chair with joy. No sooner had the landowner handed the man his receipt than the town clock began to strike 12 noon. The landowner walked the man to the door and shut it behind him.
I really wish I could remember the name of the landowner, but that’s not important, because this story exemplifies the offer of salvation through Jesus. God isn’t telling you that you have to be good to receive salvation, or that anyone deserves to receive salvation, he has offered salvation as a free gift to those who will accept it. Is there a Hell? Personally, I believe there is one, but I also believe that you would have to be a complete fool to wind up there considering how easy God has made it for you to go to Heaven. Do you want to make sure you never see Hell? Get on your knees, tell God that you are a sinner in need of salvation, thank him for sending Jesus as the sacrifice for your sins and ask Jesus to come into your heart. If you do that, I believe you will never, ever doubt the existence of God again, because he will make himself known to you and whether or not there is a Hell will be a moot point.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:42pmAnd I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(And here is the important verse Rev 20:15:)
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
“lake of fire!” What is unclear about this?
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:51pmFormerLib
You said:
“if anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire [the lake of fire], and they are burned” (John 15:6-8).
If that’s not hell, I don‘t know what you’d call it.”
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, and he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; a men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If YOU remain in union with me and my sayings remain in YOU, ask whatever YOU wish and it will take place for YOU. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that YOU keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me and I have loved YOU, remain in my love. 10 If YOU observe my commandments, YOU will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.
Don’t you realize this is an illustration? A word picture is designed to illustrate something or an event.
Report Post »Just like in Revelation 1:1 It is presented in signs. Some things in the Bible are literal, others are figurative or illustrations. We need to be able to distinguish between the two.
Let me ask, where is this lake of fire? Is it logical? Why would a loving God torment a person in a fire forever?
How could a person experience pain in a fire if they are not conscious, dead like the Bible says? Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
Our Creator told Adam and Eve they would die if they sinned, he did not tell them they would burn, they would just die and return to the dust.
Why are so many people determined to ascribe to our God a evil determination to torment people?
trolltrainer
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:53pmLTB,
I have heard the same story. It is a good one. It is amazing that it is so easy, and is obtainable for anyone, yet so few people actually take the free gift of salvation. Straight is the gate and narrow the way. That is the ONLY thing that matters, not whether you are a Catholic, Mormon, or a baptist, not whether you believe in a young earth or an old one, not if you believe the Bible is literal or not. Eschatological views are fun to discuss, but salvation only depends on a single, simple thing. So easy a 4 year old can understand. Do you accept Christ? Do you have a relationship with Him? If not then just get on your knees and ask Him in. It really is that easy.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:58pmHere we go again, I’ll trumpet it again: Hell is actually on earth when it has become without form and void. Hell is a spiritual sea of fire whereby one whom is wicked is never satisfied constantly dripping with envy- wormwood. And Heaven is seeing the light- Gopher wood. But, since reality also mimics spiritual, the sea of fire is also eventually damnation into the sun. Additionally “In” Heaven would be the reality of Heaven. There is the Firmament of Heaven, which is not the same thing as “In” Heaven.
Report Post »338lapua
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 7:59pmThe Bible speaks to those who modify the word of God to fit their needs. They are called murderers. They also called vipers and scorpions. The only sin that is unforgivable. Kind of lets you know how deep the fear of the Lord is in this man. Beware.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:15pmTrolltrainer, I usually get irritated discussing the things you mentioned, but like you said, salvation depends on a single, simple thing. If there are any Mormons who have never accepted Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for your sins, or any Catholics who have been taught that your priest will intercede for you, do like Trolltrainer suggested – get on your knees, thank God for sending Jesus as the sacrifice for your sins and ask Jesus into your heart.
Report Post »jedi.kep
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:24pmIt is a very sad, sad thing that this man, through his teaching, will lead countless thousands to the very place he claims God won’t send anyone. Deceived deceiving the easily deceived.
Report Post »GODSAMERICA
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:51pm@Josiah914
Report Post »Actually the mormon church has set a certain number of people that gets to go to Heaven decided by the leaders of the church. If you are not good friends with the church leaders you will not get to Heaven even if you are a mormon. Also, if you happen to be “on the list” for Heaven, if you do something wrong you are automatically taken off that list.
GODSAMERICA
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 8:56pmHopefully no one pays him any attention because if they follow his “teachings” then the odds are very great against them getting into Heaven and every person that doesn’t make it into Heaven because of his “teaching” not only will wind up in hell, he too will be held accountable for misleading all those souls and being instrumental in them going to hell which will put him right there in the same place as they are and he will find out that it is a lot hotter down there than in Heaven. GUARANTEED!!!!!!!! (According to the Bible anyways)
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:19pmYou greatly err JBLAZE,
The Lord Jesus spoke about one in a condition after death that some would call a parable, the only problem is he used a personal name which he never did in any other parable. It’s the “story” of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus, Luke 16. Jesus speaks very clearly that the rich man was very well aware of his torments in “Hades”, as you like to downplay as only referring to the grave.
It’s very sad that just because people are able to scan root words in a lexicon, they then act like they’re experts in the dead languages. I studied Koine Greek and New Testament Manuscripts for years and can tell you that there is great diversity in determining the definition of words by context and tense. Until you understand the difference of Aorist or Present Perfect, or the other manifold rules of the language, then you really shouldn’t throw out simple lexicon definitions as definitive for your argument.
There is good reason why often a word or phrase will be translated differently due to context or tenses used. Although the English language has change quite a bit, the body of scholars from multiple denominations and sects did an extraordinary job translating back in 1611. Nothing has been significantly changed other than by some scandalous versions in the name of modernizing and some that were translated almost solely from a few known corrupt manuscripts that seldom even agree on any single portion of scripture. If you had any extensive knowledge of Koine or Manuscript studies, I doubt you’d be using the RAV for your quotes.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:22pm@ TROLLTRAINER………you are right on the money. One verse that no one who is a “lake of fire” denier or annihilatist likes is this……….46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25 go read the whole context, look up the original language all you want. All it will do is confirm an eternal hell/death/punishment for unbelievers. There is no way to get around that, the lake of fire is eternal punishment and that those who do not receive Christ will end up there. Bottom line end of story. The argument JBLAZE made about God being love is so misguided because God is also Justice. One does not trump the other. That is the reason for the cross. It is simply a human argument because our feelings don’t really let us accept a truth that is so “drastic”. Yet it really only reveals our lack of completely understanding God’s holiness and lengths He has gone to to redeem us and what our sin really deserves when we reject that offer and His love. The argument BEARFOOT made is not correct either. Of course Sheol means common grave but go research what the original language for lake of fire means and look to Jesus’ own words when he is teaching on the doctrine of the second spiritual death and the fact that it is eternal.
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Scripture is quite clear let Him who has an ear hear.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:31pm@ BEARFOOT……your concept of death is also biblically inerrant. Death means separation spiritually. The physical death really only reflects the spiritual truth God was stating when Adam and Eve sinned. Their physical death later on represented their spiritual death !!!! That is why the second death is called that because it is eternal separation from God in eternal punishment. Your understanding and exegesis is really quite inaccurate and you would be wise to do some research on these topics without holding on to your own opinions or traditions.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:32pmHades is not to be confused with Gehena or the inferno. Hades is the state of the dead BEFORE the eternal judgment. the parable of the rich man and Lazarus should not be used to describe realities of life after death. That was not its intent. Otherwise we must be led to believe that the damned and the redeemed can see and speak to each other.
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:32pm@ GodsAmerica,
Report Post »I believe you may be confusing Mormons with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Although your characterization of JW beliefs isn’t really very fair either. They believe in an elect 144k, but those are not chosen by the capricious whims of church leaders. Please represent others’ faiths with fairness even if you disagree.
jblaze
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:47pmWATCHTHEOTHERHAND
The argument JBLAZE made about God being love is so misguided because God is also Justice. One does not trump the other……,
1John 4:7-9
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Because God is Love (agape) His Judgement is perfect!
Report Post »INHIM777
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 10:08pmI love cats too. Had 5 at the same time once. I hope to see cloudy and stinks in heaven if it be god;s will. Yes we will be accountable. Jesus christ my lord and savior spoke more of hell than heaven. He warned us and did it over and over. Yes god is love but to be love he must also be a god of justice. Ask christ to be your lord and savior and holy spirit will teach you and lead you into all truth. God bless. This goes for all politicians also.
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 10:11pmWatchTheOther,
Report Post »Clearly you have the best exegetical chops on this thread. Do you think there’s room for the following 2 possibilities:
1. The lake of fire might be figurative, intended as the best way to humanly describe a torment otherwise difficult to put into words, that got picked up as an image and repeated by people familiar with the same concepts, communicating often with people in the same circles?
2. The reason it might be as loving an act as possible for a loving God to consign certain rebels to such torment is that it would be hateful of him to allow those rebels to commingle with the pure in Heaven? In other words, that He might be sparing as many as possible by being just with those who chose poorly their own fate?
(I have my answers, but I’d like to read how you consider these).
sickofitall
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 10:11pm…And you make your ignorance obvious ISLESFORDIAN
Just what is the intent then if not about the condition after death? Your argument is as ridiculous as every bit of spin tripe heard from Liberals today. Gehenna and Hades are used in multiple ways all throughout scripture. To consign your limited definition is false and as I said, those of you doing so don’t know diddly about Koine nor the way it was used and understood at the time of the disciples. They understood without question what eternal damnation meant. Silly Liberal mentality of today seems to be the only ones that don’t get it.
As far as the rich man and Lazarus conversing, you obviously didn‘t read the scripture or you’d understand about “The Great Gulf”. If you don’t believe those in heaven can see across that gulf, try reading Revelations. Your sublime ignorance of Scripture is very sad.
GOD said, “My ways are not your ways”. Only fools try to conform HIM to our understanding!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 10:47pmHe he…OK have 2 people to respond to. First just let me say the Lord’s servant is not to be quarrelsome, so that is not my objective to offend anyone unnecessarily. But I do want to sharpen one another as Iron sharpens iron (and this only happens when sparks fly and heat increases ha ha).
First to JBLAZE…..Amen I believe the scripture you cited wholeheartedly in your last post but it doesn’t discredit my point to you at all. God is love and therefore will be expressed perfectly in all ways in combination with all the other attributes he possesses such as Justice. He cannot deny himself so to deny Justice by condemning sinners who have rejected the sacrificial Jesus Christ held out as God’s ultimate offer of love is most worthy of eternal judgment. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i]
You may have trouble explaining this scripture in light of your misunderstanding about what God’s love is and how it relates to his other attributes. At the risk of seeming argumentative I would also take issue with what you have posted here……….”God’s purpose for man is that he develop the holy, righteous character of God, which will make him fit to receive the precious gift of eternal life. But God created man of the dust of the ground, subject to death, so that if he failed to develop righteous character, he could—unlike Satan and the immortal angels who sinned and became demons—be released from his misery by death.” God’s purpose first and foremost is to bring full expression of all of His attributes into being and Glorify himself. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Also, it is not by my character that I receive the gift of eternal life it is by Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross only. If I could attain it by my character “development” then Christ died for nothing. And finally yes we were created from the dust but God himself breathed into man signifying that man had received and eternal spirit. Don‘t forget that is why we are said to have been created in God’s image. We have an eternal spirit. God has no body so it did not mean are physical bodies are in His image but rather our spirits. Your exegesis and scriptural understanding is inconsistant with other scripture teachings.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:02pm@ HAPPY………..point 1 …..It certainly is no question the Scriptures use metaphors to describe things that would be hard for us in the physical realm to understand spiritual realities. Many many examples present of this in scripture and I would say for me I don’t necessarily believe that it is an actual lake of fire per say. I do think it is meant to convey the idea of suffering and eternality. Jesus did the same thing when he described it as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth where the worm dieth not.
Point 2……Not sure if I understand completely your point but here it goes. I may be off of what you were getting at. God’s love and the concept of an eternal hell are in no way in conflict or in contradiction with one another. God’s love, justice, and wrath are all characteristics of God as revealed by Himself, just to name a few. Because God can NEVER deny himself in that all must be fully expressed perfectly, His wrath for the believer and therefore justice was satisfied on the cross in Jesus. Believing that all people, due to sin and rebellion, deserve an eternal hell because God is holy and cannot be defiled by the presence of sin in His glory. His love is expressed in grace and mercy to those who partake of His son’s purchased redemption through faith. His love was shown to unbelievers in the person of Jesus as well and they chose to refuse that salvation. “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Therefore, upon refusal of his offer of salvation his wrath and Justice are not satisfied and their sins remain unpaid and thus an eternal hell satisfies all of God’s attributes without contradiction. I hope that is what you were asking?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:03pm@ JBLAZE……………Of course God does not delight in the death of the wicked that is completely scriptural….. It proves nothing of your position though.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:32pm“Just what is the intent then if not about the condition after death?”
The intent of the parable is clear in the conclusion. It usually is in most pedagogical stories. Jesus was warning of the consequences of a sinful life and that those who sinned could not complain that they had not been warned long ago. Jesus clearly doesn’t care what we believe about what hell is LIKE. He wants us to know how to avoid it.
As for people conversing accross the “Great Gulf” in Revelation, exactly where do you see such things? I’ve read the book many times and lead studies of it. There is no depiction of people suffering in the Inferno, let alone talking to the redeemed. the damend are cast into the pit and that’s the end of them. If you thgink there is somtehing else there point it out, chapter and verse if you please.
Report Post »Old Truckers
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:38pmI noticed something in this comment string,
Report Post »Some actually wanted to inform based on actual scripture and others just spouted off their own ideas.
Watchtheotherhand sure likes to ramble on with many words mixing a 25% Bible information with 75% personal opinion with a pseudo intellectual persona that comes across as authoritative to the uninformed.
oldtruckers is not buying it. I appreciate those two bears and jblaze, they make the most sense.
jblaze
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 11:55pmSICKOFITALL
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:19pm
You greatly err JBLAZE,
It’s very sad that just because people are able to scan root words in a lexicon, they then act like they’re experts in the dead languages. I studied Koine Greek and New Testament Manuscripts for years and can tell you that there is……
My references are from Strong’s Concordance.Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, generally known as Strong’s Concordance, is a concordance of the King James Bible (KJV) that was constructed under the direction of Dr. James Strong (1822–1894) and first published in 1890. Dr. Strong was Professor of exegetical theology at Drew Theological Seminary at the time. It is an exhaustive cross-reference of every word in the KJV back to the word in the original text.
“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God … and it shall be given him” (James 1:5).
Only God gives wisdom and understanding of His Word
Koine 1. an amalgam of Greek dialects, chiefly Attic and Ionic, that replaced the Classical Greek dialects in the Hellenistic period and flourished under the Roman Empire.
Amalgam: a mixture or combination
The King James was written in the purest form of the Classical Greek language not from a mixture or combination of it.
We know God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33)
Report Post »I use the King James Version, translated in 1611. That is not to say the King James is a perfect translation. No translation is. The King James, however, is approximately 99 percent accurate. The small percentage of error in this translation is primarily due to the lack of understanding of the original meaning of certain Hebrew and Greek words by the translators. Nevertheless, the King James translation comes from accurate Hebrew and Greek texts (the Masorah and the Majority Text), unlike many modern translations.
I use other translations only to complement the King James. The King James Version was written almost 400 years ago. Over that span of time, the English language has changed somewhat. Some of the awkward and archaic phrases in the King James can be cleared up by checking a few modern translations. I often used the Revised Standard Version and Moffatt translation
jblaze
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:18amOLD TRUCKERS
Report Post »Thanks! As I said before God is not the author of confusion. Satan is. He has deceived the whole world! Rev. 12:9
Old Truckers
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:29amjblaze,
Report Post »Yep, that seems to be the case.
I respect those who actually study the Bible and you are one of those. You have a good grasp on the meanings of the scriptures.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:39am@ WHITEFANG………you have been misled by a hollow philosophy that sounds good, but as Peter said they twist the scriptures. Your understanding of what you explained is not accurate at all. Paul said death would be swallowed up in victory for those who were in Christ. You better check your contexts the next time you post verses. Paul wrote to believers that were beginning to question the resurrection, hence Paul stated that death had been the last enemy put to be defeated since believer’s would be resurrected. Your assertion that Paul was stating there was no eternal hell for unbelievers is complete and utter denial of what the context of your scripture you cited is conveying and the whole of scripture is teaching. Try reading on the exegetical practice of arching so that you may more properly interpret scriptures more accurately. Finally, you are suggesting that because Sheol means grave and Hades which technically means the underworld in Greek that the Bible does not teach an eternal place of punishment. Then exegeses this scripture for me, you may go to the original language and context.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25
read the whole account before answering please
Paul also wrote the following verses which certainly would contradict your understanding of what Paul taught to the Corinthian church
2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Peter 2:17
These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.
Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Paul obviously did not write the last 2. If Death has been swallowed up for even unbeliever’s then Paul contradicted himself when he spoke of a condemnation. If there is a condemnation but no second death as you state then there can be no condemnation for sin. Pretty plain and simple. Paul wrote of a condemnation because he knew there was a second death that awaited unbelievers. His other writings make this quite obvious.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:59am@ OLD TRUCKER…….sorry you feel that way but let me point out that I was discussing why their use of the scriptures they used to support their point was erroneous. To do that I had to discuss the context and actual meanings of what they stated and then referenced other scriptures that would teach other than what they cited. I am terribly sorry if this seems authoritarian to you. And I sure possess no pseudo-intellectual whatever you said. I have only what I have received, let him who boasts boast in the Lord. It is not by my authority that I stand for truth but by the authority of the Lord and scripture. We have been commissioned by the Lord to rightly discern truth from error. Scripture says many have twisted the meanings of the Word. We must be like the Bereans, go to the whole of scripture. I would ask you to explain the meaning and intent of the verses I listed if JBLAZE is correct and if you are not that familiar with scripture and their teachings I would caution you about forming an opinion based on a few posts in a forum such as this. All doctrinal statements must agree with the whole of scripture. A verse here or there a doctrinal foundation it does not make. Please be very careful in what you so quickly sign onto believing about this subject it should not be done lightly or with impulse. Sure warm fuzzy God of love that would never send anyone to an eternal hell sounds great, very alluring, very comfortable, very acceptable today. Unfortunately it isn’t scriptural at all.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:04am@ OLDTRUCKER…….BTW just because I didn‘t reference every sentence with scripture doesn’t mean it was scripture where upon I drew every principle I stated. Many times I used phraseology form scripture that if you were not that familiar with the Word you would never know was taken from scripture. My second post over half of what was there was simply scripture and look at all the other scriptures I posted on all my other responses if you add them all up I posted more scriptural support for my position than anyone else.
Report Post »FormerLib
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:09am@ BEARFOOT
God doesn’t punish anyone. We are agents of free will. If we are punished, it will be our own doing. Jesus himself said he who believes will not be condemned; but He who does not believe is condemned already. Jesus provided the way for us to be reconciled to God., and God even gave us the capacity to believe. The decision to do so is entirely up to us. Yes, Jesus spoke in parables. Those parables are to instruct us as to the consequences of ignoring God and his proscribed means of salvation. It is hardly unlikely that Jesus would use an example of a withered tree being thrown into a fire to tell us we’re all going to be okay in the end, so don’t worry about it. Do you?
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:12amWatchTheOther
Report Post »Thanks. That’s what I expected, and I agree with you completely–that’s what I believe the scriptures show as well, the central point being Christ answered the infinite demands of a perfectly just God’s requirement for justice to be done, and now Christ sets the rules for salvation–acceptance of Him. And you argue well, backed with scripture (except for my questions, which didn’t require more than general explanation), so don’t listen to OldTrucker who proclaims people informative when they already agree with him.
If I could clarify my point just a little, I’m hoping this might form an “out” for JBlaze, maybe in a backwards way. You see, justice applies a penalty for breaking laws. It might seem not very loving on the surface for someone to punish another so eternally, so poignantly. But when you really think about it, it only seems unjust from the perspective of the sufferer, of the guilty. I’m sorry, but by removing the guilty, He is showing love TO those made innocent through Christ’s blood. The guilty are being mercifully dealt with because their own guilt would make them wither in the presence of pure holiness, and those rendered guiltless would not have impurity defiling their place of pure and holy reward. It can be a loving win-win in that way too.
Edct
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:15amBeing a false prophet like this guy doesn’t do anyone any favors…people can‘t keep denying the truth that hell is real and that there are sins like homosexuality and abortion that God hates and that a real preacher of God tells the truth even if people don’t like it or think it might not be pc, God forbid.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:23amI would also point out to anyone following these threads because I take this topic very seriously. All of the church fathers in the 1st century would have held to a belief in an eternal punishment for unbelievers. This would have included those who were taught by the Apostles themselves.
Ignatius of Antioch —-
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110])
Second Clement —
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment. (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150])
Justin Martyr —–
No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments. (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151])
The Martyrdom of Polycarp—-
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire. (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155])
Mathetes —-
When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world. (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160])
Athenagoras —-
We [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated. (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177])
Theophilus of Antioch —-
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire. (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus —–
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,” they will be damned forever. (Against Heresies 4:28:2)
I could go on and on. The idea that Hell is not eternal or doesn’t exist is actually fairly new on the scene compared to the view of the early church fathers. When wanting to interpret what the Apostle’s taught and therefore what Jesus taught it is good to look at what their students and hearers taught that were closer to them in time. From their words it is pretty clear what they believed !!!!!!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:39amI really am sorry to anybody who may think I am overbearing with all these long posts. I don’t want to come a cross as a know it all in anyway, however, my conscious cannot allow me to be quiet on this issue as I find it so very important in a day where our beliefs have become so PC and palatable for the sake of comfort. I don‘t want a false comfort for anyone and I don’t want itching ears to be scratched with what they want to hear, rather what they NEED to hear. I believe it would have dire eternal consequences to not defend the truth at this point as Jesus spoke more on hell in the gospels than heaven. So I hope I will be received as intended. Principled enough about what I believe to state the truth clearly and caring enough to share it gently.
Report Post »Old Truckers
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:44amwatchtheotherhand,
Report Post »I’m sorry, you just keep missing the point. You are so wrapped up in your punishment/revenge attitude that you cannot see that DEATH is the punishment for sin. And death is the absence of life. There is no life when you die, your body returns to the dust from which it came. You know the counsel God gave Adam and Eve, “from dust you are and to dust you will return”.
It was already explained above that there is no conscious thought or activity in the grave (hell) because we are DEAD.
Through Jesus, the Christ of God, we will be resurrected in God’s due time, in His Kingdom. Jesus will resurrect everybody who has lived on this earth since the beginning of mankind. Acts 24:14
The purpose is to give them perhaps the first chance they ever had to learn of God’s mercies and of the ransom sacrifice of His Son. John 5:28-29
Do not say God is evil as to torment people forever in a hell fire. Would you punish one of your children for disobedience by holding their hand over a stove flame until their hand was destroyed? That would be evil on your part. And yet you say our loving Creator would do such a evil thing. Shame on you.
Now, go away, you make me sick! Unless you repent, I will not respond to you again.
Old Truckers
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:03amYou are actually blaspheming the true God by saying he would torment people forever.
Report Post »A correction: Acts 24:15
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:03am@ OLDTRUCKER……..wow is all I can say. For someone who claims to hold scripture in such high regard you sure our ignorant of it !!! I sure would like to see your scriptural support for us not being conscious after death in some form or another. Death spiritually doesn’t mean what you think it does either, try reading up on that a bit more. It means separated spiritually. We have eternal spirits because we have been created in the image of God. They are eternal !!! You didn’t answer one scripture I posted but simply spouted your own opinions (proverbs speaks on this)..For someone who spoke so highly of this early you sure seem to have abandoned that ideal quickly. Where is your scriptural support for anything you have stated? And where does it say we are all God’s children??? It does not. It says we are all God’s creation, but only those who are saved are ever called his children. Jesus said in John chapter 8 when talking to the hard hearted Pharisees that they were children of their father the DEVIL !!!!! You are misguided, wrong and dangerous to anyone who would choose to listen to your supposed insight. And to suggest I am calling God evil for the doctrine of eternal punishemnt is to suggest Jesus did the same thing…………..41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
JESUS WORDS NOT MINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:08am@ OLDTRUCKERS………….. of course there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked (acts 24:15) try reading Matthew 25 where Jesus explains what will take place at that resurrection. It is very clear and detailed. thank you for the cross reference that only proves my argument not yours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:18amCharles Spurgeon: “If sinners be dammed, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for.”
AMEN
Report Post »bendaveed
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 7:04amIt appears that to be a Pastor today you don’t need to believe Jesus or the Bible.
Jesus said more about Hell then he said about Heaven.. If you don‘t believe Jesus then it really doesn’t matter what you believe, because your have created “ god” in your image of God and not what the Bible says He is..
Report Post »Stuck_in_CA
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 7:45amAll souls go to heaven at death: Ecclesiastes 12:7.
There are two ‘sides’ of heaven. Many souls are held ‘in waiting’ for judgment: Luke 16:26.
While yet in the tomb, Christ went to all the souls which came before, and preached salvation: 1 Peter 3:19, 20.
The Great White Throne Judgment will take place after the Millennium: Revelation 20.
One of my favorite verses in God’s Word: Revelation 21:4.
As for Mr. Bell, John 8.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 8:59amWatchtheotherhand
kudos for digging out all of those qoutes from the church fathers. Of course every one of them is consistent with the idea that the fiery punishment has an end in annihilation, that it is eternal in being irreversable. It is explicit in Athenogoras.
The image of fire is key to the understanding of Annihilationism. Fire does not primarily hurt. Pain is merely one of the secondary effects of fire. The Primary effect of fire is destruction. Fire consumes what it burns.
Eslewhere you say this, “We have eternal spirits because we have been created in the image of God.” Where in the Bible does it say that we have eternal spirits? I find it nowhere. If we were eternal then even we would not need Christ to have everlasting life. To have a PLEASANT life we would need Christ. Even a life of constant everlasting suffering is still a form of life, a form of existing. It says in Scripture that Christ has life in himself, John 5:26. That is because he is God. To have life in himself means that he needs no one and nothing to keep him alive and that life cannot be taken from him. To live, to BE is inherent in his nature, (shades of I AM should be seen here). No one else has life in himself, meaning that no one can continue to live, to exist, unless factors are present to preserve his life.
The idea of a naturally immortal soul or spirit is a Greek idea. It is not Hebrew. It is not Scriptural. But the Bible did not engage in the kind of philosophical speculation that the Greeks did and left the nature of the soul more ambiguous. This has made it easy to push some images of eternal punishment to mean everlasting rather than terminal. But this is done at the epense of other images and wrds that are clearly terminal in meaning, fire and destruction being explicit terms that convey a finite terminal process. What makes eternal punishment different from non-eternal punishment is that there is no redemption. We all have experienced some form of punishment that ended in restoration. No one has yet expoerienced a punishment that does not allow for restoration because the END has not yet come. When it does, those who are punished IN and TO the end will never be restored. Their punishmnet is eternal nom matter how long it lasts.
Report Post »Utahdrifter
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 9:56amHey—Josiah- If Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon why don’t you try writing 536 page of scripture in 90 days. Bet you can’t do it.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:10amSTUCK_IN_CA
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 7:45am
All souls go to heaven at death: Ecclesiastes 12:7.
The word here in English is spirit not soul. You must find out what spirit God is referring to here in context, because you can’t explain away the verses below!
Ecclesiastes 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
What purpose is a resurrection if there is no need for one because we are already in Heaven! Do we all just go back to the grave for a big phony show?
No, no God is not the author of confusion.
I will write under separate cover about the spirit God is referring to here, using the proper translation from the Greek and letting the Bible interpret it’s meaning.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:12am“If Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon why don’t you try writing 536 page of scripture in 90 days.”
That’s about 6 pages a day. Not a hard feat. Many writers have written works this length in a time frame like this.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:12amIt never ceases to amaze me that people can convolute something as simple as the gospel of Jesus Christ. Who cares if there is a Hell?!? You don’t have to go there and the way you make sure you don’t go there is by receiving the gift of salvation offered through Jesus. How do you receive that gift? Pray to God to receive it and thank him for sending Jesus to die for your sins.
Arguing about whether there is a Hell is like someone standing on the ledge of a 5,000 cliff about to fall off and him arguing with a rescuer who is trying to throw him a rope. “Take the rope so you don’t fall into the pit below!” “What pit? There is no pit?” I don’t know if Hell is eternal, but I do know that Satan is probably getting a big laugh out of the fact that he’s able to so easily distract people from the simple message of the gospel.
…..
“but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:23-24)
“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)
“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.” (Jesus speaking in Matthew 10:32-33)
“I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.” (Jesus speaking in Luke 12:8-9)
Report Post »BoiseBaked
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 11:22amPerhaps the book should be re-titled: “How to Say Nothing in a Two Hundred Page Book.” I have no idea where this guy stands and what his point is. Therefore, I have to disregard his work by default.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 11:39am@ ISLESFORDIAN……….You do not understand what eternal life is. Jesus said this is eternal life to know God. it is called eternal life because we will be with Him and know him in an unending fashion, not because we will have life as you are defining it and others will be extinguished. That is why we have death physically because it represents the spiritual death of being separated from God forever. That is a false concept and I most assuredly do NOT believe your account of what you attributed to the early church fathers about believing in extinguishing or annihilation of a soul. Neither did Jesus for that matter. What about eternal punishment do you not understand. Eternal is not a reference to unchanging or permanent but signifies unending, you better pull out your lexicon and provide context for that short sided interpretation. God is eternal but it doesn’t mean he is unchanging it means he had no beginning or ending. He addressed his consistency or permanence of character that by stating that he is the same yesterday today and forever (reference to unending) not by saying I am eternal that is ridiculous. Your exegesis of scripture in this case is suspect and inaccurate with the weight of original language. context, and history of the early church. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Explain to me what being made in God’s image means Biblically? and exegeses these scripture staying true to the original language.
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 2 Thes.
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
You cannot interpret eternal here in this verse to simply mean permanent and remain consistent to the meaning of eternal in other scriptures as to meaning unending. Your exegesis is elementary and false on this account. You read Matthew 25 and stay consistent to the context and the original meaning and intent and your position falls on it’s faulty reasoning.
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [b] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[d] Mark 9
Seems Jesus disputes your idea that fire will devour or destroy the soul !!! You have not taken the whole council of God to create your doctrine and therefore it cannot stand against the whole of scripture given your implied meanings.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 11:49am@ ISLESFORDIAN…….Jesus referenced in that Mark 9 passage Isaiah 66—–24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The Hebrews most certainly were taught in the OT the idea of an eternal hell without end. Your position is one from isogesis not exegesis. You have used scriptures to support your palatable idea of eternal punishment rather than letting God reveal to you the reality of it. Yours is a most dangerous position for unbelievers. Why fear the judgment of God if I will simply be extinguished. Doesn’t sound like a big deal to me. Only angel’s sin I guess is worthy of suffering eternally eh? Unless you will try to argue for their extinguishing also. Sin is sin whether committed by angels or humans both are cause for eternal separation form a holy God.
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:09pmThank You WATCHTHEOTHERHAND,
Your very eloquent in conversing your point. As for myself, not so much. I’ve never been very good at conveying always in a clear and succinct way and am often misunderstood.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:13pmltb
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:12am
It never ceases to amaze me that people can convolute something as simple as the gospel of Jesus Christ. Who cares if there is a Hell?!?
That is a very good question and one that we ALL must answer. If we do not know and do not care about every WORD in the Bible as Christ taught us we should live by, then HOW can we KNOW HIM and the FATHER. Will it not be those people who do not truly know Him, that he will say this to: Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdon of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven: (Mat. 7:21) or And why call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46
The WORD of God is profound and deep, every word, and if you are serious about knowing Him you have to seek Him out; daily through pray, fasting and meditation.
There is coming a time when the knowledge of God will be spead throughout the world and Satan will not longer be here to confuse and destroy.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:20pm@ SICKOFITALL………..I would take issue with you on one point !!!!! You were very clear and grounded in your responses lol. Kudos to you brother and keep holding up the truth of scripture as you have done here. Our promise is that if Jesus be lifted up he will draw all men unto himself. Good job on your posts they were ROCK solid and on the MONEY !!!!!! The doctrine of hell and what one believes is of supreme importance because of what you stated. It conveys a cheapening of what Jesus did and what the eternal consequences of ignoring that will be. May He be lifted up !!!!
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:40pmwatchtheotherhand
“we have death physically because it represents the spiritual death of being separated from God forever.”
I would say physical death involves far more than separation. It involves the destruction of the body and its nonexistence. So what then would a spiritual death involve if it is likened to a physical one?
“ Eternal is not a reference to unchanging or permanent but signifies unending”
But there are two ways of being unending. One is to be an experience that continues eternally, another is to create a reality that never changes. One who disbelieves in the Resurrection could say of physical death that it is an everlasting or eternal death because it will never be reversed. We would never say of anything in this life that it is eternal because things can change because God allows us the time to change. But what happened when time runs out?
“ Explain to me what being made in God’s image means Biblically”
To me being made in the image of God refers to our having a conscience. We are made to know God and to choose him.
“You cannot interpret eternal here in this verse to simply mean permanent and remain consistent to the meaning of eternal in other scriptures as to meaning unending.”
I don’t understand you here. Permanent MEANS unending. It’s right there in the definition.
You quote the fire never going out and the worm never dying. Your interpretation naturally leads you to imagine a never ending experience of being burned by fire and eaten by worms. But that is because you go in with a presumption of an immortal soul that CANNOT be destroyed. I do not. To me the fire not going out and the worm not dying shows a rejection of a reprieve from the destruction that is implied. It imagines a situation in which the fire is put out or the worm killed and the condemned is rescued from destruction, a situation that happened repeatedly in the life of Israel. If a house starts burning and some firemen put it out we would say the fire was quenched. But if the fire was allowed to keep burning until the house was no more the fire would eventually go out but we wouldn’t say it was quenched. A worm could begin to consume a body and be killed before it finishes. But it could theoretically consume the whole body and go on to another. The worm has not died then but it no longer is consuming that body.
Let me ask you this. When Jesus talks about himself destroying the soul in gehenna what type of destruction is he talking about? What actually is destroyed if the damned continue to exist forever. A fire burns by destroying what it burns. Pain is only the experience of its destruction while we still possess something to feel the pain. A fire could not burn me forever unless I was infinite in mass or unless its burning never actually consumed anything of me. But then I would feel no pain. Augustine understood the paradox of this reality when he posited that God would continually provide bodies for the damned to be burned. After one body was consumed they would be given another, again and again forever. He was forced to this because he new a bodiless soul could not feel pain but he believed the soul indestructible.
But let me ask you, do you think God CANOT destroy the soul? He created it. Can he not annihilate it? If he can, does not all the images of destruction lead to annihilation as the natural result? If God cannot destroy the soul what does that say about his power?
If we look at gehenna as a Purgatory for the damned the we see an end to the process. Purgatory cannot last forever for anyone, for no finite being can possess infinite sin to be expunged through divine purgation. Why should we suppose the damned are capable of infinite evil. The time it takes to consume their evil must be finite as they are. Conversely, the process for both the redeemed in purgatory and the damned in gehenna could be relatively instantaneaous, (what really is time outside the body?)
When I look to the concept of a consuming fire three things come to mind, all of them involving a fire which consumes evil, sin or unholiness.
First we see a bush that burns but is not consumed. The holy fire does not touch it because there is nothing to be consumed. It is a picture of complete holiness.
Second we see the holy fire of the Holy Spirit purifying us like ore melted down. The impurities are burned off and the fine gold remains. Here fire consumes what is not of God.
Third we see those cast into the lake of fire. They are the complete opposite of the burning bush. There is nothing holy in them, only evil. Like the redeemed the go through a fire which burns off the impurities. Unlike them there is nothing left after this because there is nothing godly in them.
What you propose is the existence of the damned that can exist forever in the fire without being destroyed, a mirror image of God. That is too close to the Dualism that is inherent in pagan philosophy and from which Christian theology inherited the idea of a naturally eternal soul.
Death, consuming fire and destruction. All these images are used for the damned and all three naturally speak of an end. Death that leads to unending existence is not much of a death. Fire that consumes forever is not much of a consuming fire, and destruction that never fully destroys is not really destruction.
In all of this I keep within the Biblical parameters and the natural meaning of the words.
I welcome your counter exegesis that proves my explanation CANNOT be true.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:50pmSickofitall
“I never said they can converse “across the gulf””
Ah, but the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus shows them doing just that. If we allow that that portion is not meant to describe the reality of the gulf between heaven and hell then we can say of other apsects that they do not necessarily teach the nature of hell beyond Jesus ‘ specific application of the parable. He DOES explain his intent at the end: There is a gulf which cannot be crossed, no second chances; you know everything you need to know, no excuses.
Saying that Jesus wasted no words is the kind of hyper-literalism that ignores the nature of language and leads to things like the Kabbala.
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:10pm@ WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
I thank you for the kind words. I didn’t mean to imply that belief in an eternity of separation and suffering was not significant, but that it is not the main cornerstone of our salvation. What is scary though, is it‘s not a big leap from the method of exegesis used by those who denounce the reality of Hell to that used by Jehovah’s Witnesses who do the same and also in regards to the Deity of Christ. As you may know, they used misquotes and references from the works of H.E. Dana & Dr. Mantey in several of their manifold versions of The New World Translations to bolster their claim that Jesus was “a god”(Michael the Archangel) instead of GOD in the flesh as in John 1. Being Christians, Dana & Mantey didn’t wish to sue but eventually had The Watchtower Society remove any reference to them. JW’s never had any reputable Greek scholars but have continually revised their translations with erroneous exegesis and straight out lies for decades.
Concerning these Saturday night “scholars” and “doctors” of Linguistics & Exegesis that continually water down Scripture: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Report Post »waggie
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:20pmIn this day and age you better be strong in what and whom you believe in. Look at just the headlines on the Blaze! There are sooooo many false prophets wanting to steal you and your children away from what and Who is real. Look to the Bible folks, it has the only real answers!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:20pm@ SIKOFITALL……….Oh I agree with you wholeheartedly brother. Didn‘t think you implied that at all I was just kiddin’ on the “take issue with you” about knocking your ability to convey your points. You did a great job!!!!
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:26pmYou can tell the good men of god from the bad ones by how much money they make. The ones that make the most money like Benny Hinn or Robert H. Schuller are the ones with the truth. That is because any man of god worth his salt would not teach the gospel of Jesus Christ unless he is very well paid.
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:29pm@ ISLESFORDIAN
All of your comments and reasoning is laughable to any with a lick of common sense. All your doing is spinning and twisting meanings to suit your effort of retort. This is the same game used Ad Nauseum by Liberals, Politicians, and MSM. Anyone can do it without end. I used to play devil’s advocate with friends on subjects we all knew and agreed, but easily used counter “facts” & “reasoning” to the point of frustration and confusion. That’s all your doing. We all know of another who does the same. He started with “Yea, hath God said…”
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:43pmwatchtheotherhand
“Oh my word are you for real on that?”
Responses like this depress me because it implies you do not bother to seriously consider the question but reflexively assume all your interpretations are self-evident.
“In your theology what are they a tent of if we don’t have a spirit that is eternal?”
Our bodies are a tent for our soul. We don’t have a spirit that is alive, let alone eternal, until God breathes it into us. We are spiritually dead until we are alive in Christ. We are MEANT to have an eternal spirit within us, but only the redeemed will.
“Are you seriously going to try to use the laws of this physical world to defend your theology on what will take place spiritually hereafter. I don’t even think that is worth the effort to respond to.”
How convenient, and how typical of those who have no argument. You encounter a question you can‘t answer so you say it isn’t worth answering. Intellectual laziness is hardly credible.
“Your belief is the one that doesn’t see the second death as permanent you see it as pain for some given infinitesimal time I guess then poof your gone. That is not permanent. That is changing.”
When you are gone forever what change can then take place? It is a change to a permanent status of nothing.
“Fire is used to indicate different things in scripture and one of those is that fire can purify that which is already precious, ie gold which is a direct reference to God’s elect and saved being sanctified by the trial they experience while in this age.”
Perhaps you don’t know how fire purifies gold and other things. It burns off the dross. That’s how it works. God chose the image. I’m just going with it. YOU are the one denying it nature.
“I really believe you have some knowledge of the word, but not in depth study on the meanings of the original language and contextual inferences and this leads you to imply your meaning to spiritual things that are not implied in the scriptures themselves.”
Yeah, three years in seminary and many more in a doctoral study of theology and biblical interpretation and twenty years of preaching and teaching this I guess isn’t enough to think I know anything.
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:06pmWell, I noticed that ISLESFORDIAN most likely reported my post that had the link that refuted all of his tripe and had it removed. Real Christian of him. Typical counter for a Liberal Troll. That’s all you are. I don’t believe for a second your claim of seminary and studies, but even so, there are thousands of heretics and charlatans that have handfuls of degrees. Doesn’t mean squat but to those easily deceived by a liar and thief.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:14pm@ ISLES so if I don’t have a soul (your word not mine) as an unbeliever what exactly is God destroying? The body as you pointed out is already dead so what is it that is being dealt with? The spirit of man is dead in the sense that it does not have life (ie know God) which is what Jesus stated was the definition of spiritual life not what you espouse. So the spirit is dead in that sense but it most definitely is in existence. If there is no spirit then what was it that went to Hades in the story of Lazarus? Was it the physical body? The more you post the weaker your positions get and the more exasperated I become from your intellectual dishonesty passed off as some insightful knowledge mixed in with personal jabs at me about my integrity. You honestly don’t think I know the meaning of this……”Perhaps you don’t know how fire purifies gold and other things. It burns off the dross. That’s how it works. God chose the image. I’m just going with it. YOU are the one denying it nature.” This is a picture of the sanctification of believers. You know being made more like Jesus in this age before we die. This example of fire YOU gave first has nothing to do with judgment or wrath. It is an image of how God will use the difficulties in this life to purge from us strongholds and sinful attitudes (the “dross”) and leave an even more precious item when finished, ie the believer who has grown and has had their faith (of greater worth than gold) strengthened. Finally, you can give all the credentials you want but your exegesis is not right and many in Jesus day including the unconverted Paul assumed themselves to be Teachers of the law. Knew verses and scripture quite well even used the word to try to trap Jesus and then later condemn him to the cross. So I have to say that doesn’t impress me at all if anything it saddens me that such would be the case and that you would still espouse such twisted reasoning and exegesis of the scriptures. But applied it in such a wrong manner that it led to many of them being condemned forever. Your positions simply do not stand the tests of reason, logic, context, original language, historical church fathers position or Jesus’ teachings, of the Scriptures. My instinct tells me that you are some body that just cannot believe in a God who would “do such a thing” and this belief barrier of yours has forced you to twist the meaning of scriptures. BTW don’t think for a second that all seminaries are godly or accurate Harvard used to be a bibline seminary, that sure doesn’t mean anything now. There are many liberal seminaries that espouse and teach doctrine of demons to students all the time.
You go on and think I am what you stated……. “You encounter a question you can‘t answer so you say it isn’t worth answering. Intellectual laziness is hardly credible” I think any one including you who reads all my threads will see that was just a cheap shot by you that wasn’t factual about me.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:17pmo sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:29pm
@ ISLESFORDIAN
All of your comments and reasoning is laughable to any with a lick of common sense. All your doing is spinning and twisting meanings to suit your effort of retort
o watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 1:18pm
@ ISLESFORDIAN…………..Oh my word are you for real on that?
Matthew 7 (King James Version)
Report Post »Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Jeremiah 17:9-15 (King James Version)
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:18pmSickofitall,
I don‘t report other’s comments to have them removed. But it’s “real Christian” of you to assume the worst of an opponent.
But if all you can do when you don’t have more of an argument is call your opponent a liberal and a troll what more is there to expect?
Report Post »ltb
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:46pmjblaze
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:13pm
That is a very good question and one that we ALL must answer. If we do not know and do not care about every WORD in the Bible as Christ taught us we should live by, then HOW can we KNOW HIM and the FATHER. Will it not be those people who do not truly know Him, that he will say this to: Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdon of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven: (Mat. 7:21) or And why call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46 The WORD of God is profound and deep, every word, and if you are serious about knowing Him you have to seek Him out; daily through pray, fasting and meditation. There is coming a time when the knowledge of God will be spead throughout the world and Satan will not longer be here to confuse and destroy.
—-
Please re-read what I wrote. I am not saying that Hell is a fictional place, what I am saying is that people who get stuck on whether, or not, Hell is a place of everlasting torment are missing the forest for the trees. The gospel is not that people will burn in Hell for their sins, the gospel is that Jesus died for the sins of mankind so that those who believe in him don’t have to go to Hell. Will those who reject Jesus go to Hell? Yes. Is Hell a place of everlasting torment? I don’t know, it may be that it is just a place where souls are burned up until they die. Whether “eternal,” as used in the Bible with respect to Hell, means “everlasting” or an “unspecified length of time,” should be a moot point, though, because God has made it so easy for us to get into Heaven that only fools will wind up in Hell. God is offering mankind an awesome gift – how hard is it to receive a gift? With that in mind, I’ll ask again… when all you have to do is receive a gift that God is waiting to give you, WHO CARES IF THERE IS A HELL?!?
..…
“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” (Rev 3:20)
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:52pm@ JBLAZE…..your use of scripture to castigate me as a swine because I am debating and standing up for the truth is not appropriate unless you think Jesus debating with the false premises of the pharisees made him unclean or that Paul’s numerous debates with false teachers made him unclean. That is a typical attack that someone who cannot discuss things in a reasonable manner without thinking they possess some moral high ground or special corner on truth might use to essentially degrade the other person. If I was someone who denied Christ and his work then you might have more of a point. Seems you may have lost some Christian charity towards me and think me an unsaved person by your comment????
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:57pm@ JBLAZE
Funny how those verses are always used by those with an agenda like homosexuals and others that continue to live in sin but claim to be “Believers”.
You again display your limited knowledge of the Greek. I suggest you do an exhaustive search on the word “Judge” used in this particular verse and you‘ll find it doesn’t mean to not have a critical opinion, but in the sense of condemn or pass judgment upon like a sentence. As in GOD’s judgment or that of an official.
It’d be redundant to play tit-for-tat with verses and that‘s why I’ve not used scripture as a club. Grow up.
As for ISLESFORDIAN, I never claimed whether I was a Christian or not unlike your claim of preaching for 20 years. I will simply state that an honorable person, whether or not they believe it, does not manipulate the scriptures to say something they simple do not. You are the one that has no argument as WATCHTHEOTHERHAND has easily displayed. You are NOT a servant of GOD as degrees and speaking from the pulpit does not make one so. I will take you at your word that you didn’t report, but it very strange I’ve never had that done before nor as quickly. There was only a few of us in dialogue.
I will not continue in this unprofitable charade. As the Apostle Paul stated, But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Bless You WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:01pm“so if I don’t have a soul (your word not mine) as an unbeliever what exactly is God destroying?
Except those AREN’T my words. Check it out. I never said the unredeemed don’t have a SOUL. I said they don’t have an eternal SPIRIT. The damned have souls. It is their soul that is destroyed in hell. But where are people cast into hell ever called spirits?
What do YOU think “destruction” means here? Seriously, could you answer that? What is destroyed in gehenna?
“The spirit of man is dead in the sense that it does not have life (ie know God) which is what Jesus stated was the definition of spiritual life not what you espouse.”
Could you point out where Jesus ever specifically says what you just did, where he defined that spiritual life means precisely and only that?
“Your positions simply do not stand the tests of reason, logic, context, original language, historical church fathers position or Jesus’ teachings, of the Scriptures.”
Well it’s easy to assert that but you give no argument to demonstrate how that is true. You just keep repeating the assertion and then accuse me of giving weak arguments while you don’t answer questions
“You go on and think I am what you stated……. “You encounter a question you can‘t answer so you say it isn’t worth answering. Intellectual laziness is hardly credible” I think any one including you who reads all my threads will see that was just a cheap shot by you that wasn’t factual about me.”
It wasn’t a cheap shot. Saying my question wasn’t worth answering was the cheap shot. It‘s easy to be reasonable when you don’t face challenging questions. I have seen plenty of people who seem reasonable and respectful until they realize that I still do not agree with them, then they tire of the argument and become dismissive, mocking and insulting. If you don’t have an explanation to meet my question a respectful response would have been, “I don’t know. I’ll have to think about that”. But no, you responded with ridicule of the question. Too bad. I thought we could actually discuss theology but you prefer to preach and judge from a sniper’s post.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:19pm@ ISLESFORDIAN…………..Your condescension of me is quite telling. I have been more than willing to discuss your “theology” and if you think I have not offered any arguments to your questions then I have no more to say to you other than re-read all the threads. It is I who has been essentially called an unsaved swine by JBLAZE and the scripture she referenced to me. This is the scripture that Jesus defines as what eternal life is I thought with all your training you would have known it?
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I am sure the fact that I don’t answer any of your other questions will mean you think you have won and I have no answers for your “paint me in a corner” questions that is fine. But I think that wisdom is to listen to the writer of proverbs at this point. Good day sir and may God bless you !!!!!
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:39pmwatchtheother hand,
What has Jblaze to do with me? (I think you misconstrue what she? was intending to communicate) Perhaps you should reflect why you bring her up in responding to me.
If you will review your first comment to me on this subject it was rather high handed, and not what I would consider a reasonable discussion of theology: “You do not understand what eternal life is.” Your assertion of my ignorance progressed continually from there with added doubts about my expertize in ancient languages and then of my piety. And you complain of Jblaze’s mere citation of Scripture.
You method of argument portrays one less interested in the pursuit of knowledge than in having your beliefs confirmed. If this is not what you really think you should rethink the way you engage others when in disagreement. When you say something is ridiculous or laughable without detailing WHY it is so, well, that just speaks ill of your brnad of “charity”.
If you wish to pose me a set of doctrinal questions to establish whetehr I am the sort of disbelieving liberla I think you intimate I am, feel free. I am not in lockstep with any church or creed, except the Nicene and Apostles’ creeds, but I can generally be considered a very conservative evangelical/catholic with exceptions. Those exceptions involve the present issue.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:51pmby the way watchtheotherhand, you accused me of saying what I did not say. I called you on it. This is not a matter of interpretation. Here’s what I said,
“Our bodies are a tent for our soul. We don’t have a spirit that is alive, let alone eternal, until God breathes it into us. We are spiritually dead until we are alive in Christ. We are MEANT to have an eternal spirit within us, but only the redeemed will.”
And here’s how you characterized it, “so if I don’t have a soul (your word not mine) as an unbeliever”
Do you think an admission of your error might have been appropriate, if not an apology? If you think misreading what I say is a way of doing honest discussion then I can understand how we can get off on the wrong foot so easily.
Report Post »PhunkDaPhish
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:56pm@Josiah914
You my friend, have CLEARLY READ THE BIBLE!
Perhaps the “pastor” could explain the following passage, Matthew 7:13-14:
Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to
destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14 For the gate is small, and the way is
narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
And this one John 14:6 (I would advise Moromons, Budhist, Muslims, Hindus, atheist and generally any non-saved person to really wrap their minds around this – you truly will be freed when you comprehend with your body, soul and mind around His beautiful words):
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
And the passage that tells me that even though I will falter, that he is a good shepard, and will not lose one of his sheep. I love God!
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.28 I give them eternal life, and they will never die, and no one can steal them out of my hand.29 My Father gave my sheep to me. He is greater than all, and no person can steal my sheep out of my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”
Report Post »sickofitall
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 4:04pmAnswers to ISLESFORDIAN and his theory of the damned being “Destroyed”.
apologeticspress(DOT)org/article/1475
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 4:27pm@ ISLESFORDIAN…………I thought you were probably Catholic to some degree given your use of purgatory in your discussion. That explains much for me given your positions. JBLAZE only has anything to do with you in that she was agreeing with you and suggesting to you that you not cast your pearls before swine (inferred meaning was me) That would indicate by the correct context of the meaning of that scripture that she views me as unclean individual since I hold a different view than she does of the afterlife even though I would cling to Jesus’ death and faith in his propitiation of my sin to save my soul. And if you think I was high handed because I challenged your notions of scripture meanings and simply stated you error in your understanding and use of eternal life then I would hate to see what you thought of Paul when he debated people that were clearly in the wrong.
Your method of argument portrays one less interested in the pursuit of knowledge than in having your beliefs confirmed. If this is not what you really think you should rethink the way you engage others when in disagreement. When you say something is ridiculous or laughable without detailing WHY it is so, well, that just speaks ill of your brnad of “charity”. I did address the issue in my previous posts that‘s why I couldn’t believe you just simply stated the same things in a slightly different way. It was pretty silly. And you of all people who claims to be a believer in spiritual truth then wanted to use physical realities of this world to defend a spiritual condition that is what is simply to far fetched to address.
And you better read my question again. I did not say you said a believer did not have a soul my question was exactly the opposite of what you claim and think I meant. That is why I did not address it. And I could care less if your liberal conservative or otherwise. It has no baring on rightly dividing the word. If you are quasi-Catholic as you say then you do not stand in line with Catholic doctrine on the issue at all.
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Hell ……………………………………………………………… This is a summary of the Catholic’s teaching of hell you would be considered a heretic by them. They would consider your views heretical on the subject and would not consider you catholic at all
I will now be done discussing with you as you strike me as a person who is proud and like to quarrel trusting in his opinions and faulty exegesis of scriptures.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 4:28pm@ SICK…………great resource!!!!!!!!!! It is obvious that ISLES would even be considered heretical on this issue by the Catholic church that he claims to quasi-identify with bottom line.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 4:43pmHow is THIS “so if I don’t have a soul (your word not mine) as an unbeliever” meant to convey anything other than the idea that I claimed unbeliever‘s don’t have souls?
Let’s deal with the actual text here, or are you afraid to admit you erred?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 5:33pmThe misunderstanding is when I asked the question using your word and you think it means one thing to you but it does not mean the same thing to me. You use soul when I would use the word spirit. That is why when I asked the question i qualified it by stating that was your word not mine. You then tried to explain how you think we have a soul but not a spirit. You missed the point of me asking the question. I was exposing your attempt to give attributes of a soul to what a spirit has by asking you the question. The following may help you with my question it was not a misstatement on my part and therefore requires no redress from me or apology. ” The soul and the spirit are the two primary immaterial aspects that Scripture ascribes to humanity. It can be confusing to attempt to discern the precise differences between the two. The word “spirit” refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity. Human beings have a spirit, but are we not spirits. However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26), while unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13). In Paul’s writing, the spiritual was pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; Colossians 1:9; 3:16). The spirit is the element in humanity which gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word “spirit” is used, it refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).
The word “soul” can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity. Unlike human beings having a spirit, human beings are souls. In its most basic sense, the word “soul” means “life.” However, beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts. One of these is humanity’s eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Humanity is naturally evil, and our souls are tainted as a result. The life principle of the soul is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18; Jeremiah 15:2). The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25; Psalm 43:5; Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word “soul” is used, it can refer to the whole person, whether alive or in the afterlife.
The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God. The spirit is present but dead just like a physical body can be present but dead. It then is made alive with Christ so that one can follow and fellowship with God. That is why Adam and Eve were driven from fellowship with God in the garden it was a significant sign pointing to the fact that they had spiritually died. Which brings me to another question for you. Did Adam and Eve have spirits before they sinned, then lose those spirits when they sinned, only to get them back again when they were saved?
Report Post »COT-TOE-MITEY
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 5:35pmSnowleopard…I always enjoy reading your posts but consider this. Why in the area of faith, and particularly the Bible, do so many think that there are many paths to truth? We would never say in any other subject area, “Well, just do what you think is best because if you try hard enough, everyone gets to be correct.” We have all grown up in an age of relativism where every man does what is right in his own eyes and personal responsibility is a rare bird. I hope that you will consider that the Bible is the source of absolute truth and, despite the crazy rhetoric of people who are Christian-in-name-only, Scripture does in fact contain the clear message of God’s plan of redemption for mankind. FYI..a quick read of the book of John in the New Testament is good snapshot of tha plan.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 7:19pmWhen I make a distinction between spirit and soul and then claim that while all have sould not all have spirits, you cannot respond by asking “if I an unbeleiver don’t have a soul (your word)” when this is precisiely what I am NOT saying. I do not confuse the soul with spirit, so i am not meaning spirit when I am saying soul You are not highlighting anything by asking me what I think God is destroying in gehenna because you have misstated my position that it is the SOUL of the unbeliever which is destroyed, not the spirit, because there is no spirit there to begin with. There is no way I can see that you can get from what you said then to what you are now claiming to have meant.
Everything you write after that is fine. I have no problem with it. But I am frustrated when it seems that you do not read what I read carefully and then insist on denying that you misstated it.There is little point in dialogue when that situation persists.
As to whether Adam and Eve had spirits before sinning: I would say yes, but those spirits died with sin and the race became spiritually dead. the spirtual conncetion given to them when God breathed into man was broken. They still had souls created in God’s image. But I see this image inclining us to be like God. It is in our nature to be godlike, though not in our power because of sin.
To be clear about my religious Identity, I am an Anglican, but a very conservative one of a stripe not often seen any more, catholic inappreciating the role of Tradition and sacramental theology. i am closer ot the esat on the sacraments than to Rome, though. But as a protestant I am not swayed by the mere assertion of Catholic Councils on a matter if I find the reasoning unfounded.
I looked at both sickofitall’ s link and yours. Sick’s was far less impressive to me as it highlighted what I see to be truly tendetious and slight of hand reasoning. To give one instance of its apolegtic problems it justifies the reasonability of a punishment being longer than the crime by refering to modern incarceration in which a criminal will spend much longer in jail than it tokk to do the crime. This is bad on many fronts. It ignores the fact that prison was never a form of punishment in God’s law. It also ignores the reality of why prisons exist today. They were intended as reformatory. It’s why they are called penitenaries. The time in prison was meant to give the criminal time to reflect and repent. To look on a system of punishments taht had reform, in mind in order to establish a principle that can justify an unending punishment with no purpose of reform is illogical in the extreme. Furthermore, the author of the argument proceeds to justify an eternal punishment by th acceptance of a long punishment for a crime, asking “where do you draw the line?” This makes the logical leap from an argument over WHEN a punishment should end to whether it should end at all.
Another problem I had was the divine justification for endless punishment by making the sinner responsible for Christ’s death on the cross. This has some rhetorical power but it twists the nature of Christ’s suffering, which was a free act of love by Jesus. Jesus was not a victime of sin. He willingly took that burden upon him. To claim that sinners deserve to suffer forever because they made God give up his son to die on the cross is to make Christ’s payment for sin a thing to be avenged. it robs it of its loving and sacrificial nature.
The Catholic site is better, but there are a few times where it is clear that it is not taking seriously the idea that Annihilationism does not mean universalism. Here is one example:
“Of Judas Christ says: “it were better for him, if that man had not been born” (Matt., xxvi, 24). But this would not be true if Judas were ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness.”
“from hell and admitted to eternal happiness” is precisely what I am saying will NOT happen, it CANNOT happen if the damned are annihilated.
Some have argued that annihlationism makes mincemeat of motivation to avoid hell. “What‘s to worry if you don’t suffer?” But an atheist who believes in no afterlife still would rather have a long and happy life over a quick painless death. Look at prisoners on death row resisting execution even if it means more life stuck in prison. Life is good, even when it stinks, because it beats the alternative of not living. The same motivation would hold for eternal life. Even more, because THAT life would never end. I think we overlook how horrible the thought of ceasing to exist can be, perhaps because the sting of death has been taken out of our culture by Christianity and even atheists have learned to be stoic about it. But that stoicism usually wears off quick toward the end when they face the abyss.
Besides, i am with the proverbial old woman seen carrying a torch and a bucket of water by a priest who asked her what she was doing. She replied she was going to put out the fires of hell and burn down heaven so that no one would love God just to escape the one and get into the other. People should love God for his own sake.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 7:29pmBy the way, my theological faves are, after St. Paul of course, Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, Athanasius, John Chrysostom, Richard ******, E.B. Pusey, G.K. Chesterton, C.S.Lewis, Chuck Colson and Benedict XVI. I don’t agree with everything they all say, of course, but I have to have very solid arguments for doubting any of them, as I respect their reasoning that much.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 7:43pmWATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 15, 2011 at 9:31pm
@ BEARFOOT……your concept of death is also biblically inerrant.
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
The argument JBLAZE made about God being love is so misguided…..
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:39am
@ WHITEFANG………you have been misled by a hollow philosophy that sounds good, but
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 12:59am
@ OLD TRUCKER…….sorry you feel that way but let me point out that I was discussing why their use of the scriptures they used to support their point was erroneous.
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:03am
@ OLDTRUCKER……..wow is all I can say. For someone who claims to hold scripture in such high regard you sure our ignorant….
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 11:39am
@ ISLESFORDIAN……….You do not understand what eternal life is.
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 2:52pm
@ JBLAZE…..your use of scripture to castigate me as a swine
WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 3:19pm
@ ISLESFORDIAN…………..Your condescension of me is quite telling.
The truth shall set you free!
Report Post »ltb
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 8:23pmI remember where I heard the story – it was on Michael Youssef’s program (“Leading the Way”) and the name of the landowner was Lord Collington of Dublin. I went to Michael’s website and found the link to the message that contains the story about Lord Collington, which I’ve included below. Please go to his website and listen to the message, because there were a couple of things I got wrong about the story. One of the things I misspoke about in retelling the story was that the landowner required his tenants to bring a piece of paper with them to his office. Actually, Lord Collington just posted a notice that told the tenants to show up at his office on a certain day before noon. It may seem like a small point, but I don’t want any unbelievers to think that God requires you to bring anything to him but your sin in order to receive salvation. You don’t need to catalog your sins when you pray to God to receive salvation, you just need to admit that you are a sinner and tell God that you accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins, then ask Jesus to come into your heart.
“The Temporary Solution” from the message series “The Greatest Lie” by Michael Youssef:
Report Post »http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/leading-the-way/player/the-temporary-solution-159835.html
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 9:22pm@ ISLESFORDIAN…………as I said earlier my battle is not with you personally even though I know some who might not understand our back and forth might think otherwise. I hope you have not taken it in that personal vain. “Spirited” (ha ha) debate can be a very sharpening tool for clumps of iron. I do appreciate your view I really do and I would never claim that your view on hell would be a matter of salvation, if faith in the finished work of Christ is your cornerstone. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. As you have stated men much greater in wisdom and knowledge than either of us have held both positions. For instance, I love A.W. Pink and he held to your view I believe most of his life although I did hear he switched his position near the end but I don’t know what to. I would also love most of the names you listed as well and have read many of their books too. I really do not wish you anything but blessings. I sincerely mean that in truth. I think we could look to Paul and Barnabas who had a sharped debate and parted ways. Both of whom were used of God. Perhaps we will learn the answer to who has the correct view when we ask Jesus face to face. I want to ask your forgiveness if my passion and comments ever crossed the line to offend you. That is not my intention. I am a passionate person about certain things and not knowing me personally or my heart or being able to talk face to face about this issue is certainly a handicap and a breeding ground for misunderstandings. Have a great day may the Lord bless you and cause His face to shine upon you.
@ JBLAZE………….Really what is your point? That I can’t point out where I think people are wrong with regard to their scripture interpretation without being “judgmental” or whatever you think? At the same point you are trying to measure me you yourself and your own words would then judge you. Can you really not see that? Check out what I have done compared to Jesus or Paul when they debated with those in error. Jesus called people broods of vipers and children of the Devil, stubborn and stiff-necked. Paul said of those trying to hold up circumcision in the church for gentiles that he wished they would go ahead and emasculate themselves. I imagine you would have sent the same message to Paul and Jesus wouldn’t you? Would you like me to copy and post what you commented on about me??? You know about being an unclean swine that pearls should not be cast before. Seems you have yet to address that little attack, which is most definitely different from anything I have done. Just waiting on your reply.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 9:51pm@ JBLAZE…………..OLD TRUCKER posted to me the following……………..
Do not say God is evil as to torment people forever in a hell fire. Would you punish one of your children for disobedience by holding their hand over a stove flame until their hand was destroyed? That would be evil on your part. And yet you say our loving Creator would do such a evil thing. Shame on you.
Now, go away, you make me sick! Unless you repent, I will not respond to you again.
You are actually blaspheming the true God by saying he would torment people forever.
JBLAZE posted to me the following………………………
6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I ask you JBLAZE did you post your verses that you sent to me to OLD TRUCKER or did he get a pass since he was in agreement with you. Did you feel the ***** of your heart when calling me an unclean swine or dog? I await your response.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:07pmwatchtheotherhand,
Blessings and peace and no hard feelings. This forum does make it difficult especially when passionately held ideas are discussed. The tone of banter we have in our head may not be communicated the way we think. Plus the lag of time and intervention of multiple comments in between almost makes it like shouting an argument in a crowd. When in a forum like this I try to be as unemotional and dry as possible while still fervently commited to my ideas. That can make me sound pompous if it doesn’t come off right, or if points start getting misconstrued and we start arguing over misinterpretation. My prefered forum would be in pub back room discussing this over a couple of pints.
I reserve the possibility that I am completely wrong, but I will wait for sound reason to proove me so or the Lord Jesus to slap me sensible. I’m sure, if I am wrong, he will be able to make me happy with the truth. And given his forgiving nature I do not fear his wrath in stubbornly clinging to what I believe. He knows I mean well and that I am a bear of very little brain.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:12pmOh, and watch, thanks for hanging in there. It is so much more satisfying to end a conversation on good terms. Even if we can’t agree on things at least we can be gracious toward one another.
Have a Nicene Day.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 10:16pm@ ISLESFORDIAN…………..Thank you for your post it was most kind and I believe if we talked more we would probably find we have much more in common than we do differences. I would agree wholeheartedly that I would be most joyous if I would be wrong to announce with great fervor the truth that would be revealed to me. And I too, as you, know that as there is grace in my sin and morality that there is also grace in my theology for no man is perfect in either. If I may ask what country do you live in? If you prefer not to answer please do not feel compelled. Thank you again and where we stand on the solid ground of Jesus and his sacrifice that redeems us I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and call you brother. Thank you for your earnestness.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 11:02pmUSA, Maine. I spend some time in Manchester England for doctoral studies’ residency requirement.
Report Post »Cheers.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 16, 2011 at 11:16pm@ ISLESFORDIAN……………Indiana myself. Am a physician here. Have a good day it is late where you are at catch ya later !!!!
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 17, 2011 at 12:11pmJBLAZE,
It is best in this present circumstance to stop throwing your pearls before swine. Cretans cannot understand clear Bible scripture.
I admire the stand OLD TRUCKERS took. He will not respond any further the the troublemaker’s like watchtheotherhand. I will not respond to him either as he makes me sick also, with his insistence on his love of hellfire, pain and torment. What is wrong with a person like that? And he claims to be a Christian. ppttff
Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.
Report Post »