‘Cross-Dressing Clergy’: These Are the Reasons the Episcopal Church Could Be Near Collapse
- Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:20am by
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Editor’s Note: This is a crosspost from Beliefnet.com. It was composed by Rob Kerby, Senior Editor, Beliefnet.
The headlines coming out of the Episcopal Church’s annual U.S. convention are stunning — endorsement of cross-dressing clergy, blessing same-sex marriage, the sale of their headquarters since they can’t afford to maintain it.
The American branch of the Church of England, founded when the Vatican balked at permitting King Henry VIII to continue annulling marriages to any wife who failed to bear him sons, is in trouble.
(Related: Episcopal Bishops Approve Trial Blessing for Gay Couples & Clear the Way for Transgender Ordination)
Somehow slipping out of the headlines is a harsh reality that the denomination has been deserted in droves by an angry or ambivalent membership. Six prominent bishops are ready to take their large dioceses out of the American church and align with conservative Anglican groups in Africa and South America.
Above: Bonnie Anderson, President of the House of Deputies
“An interesting moment came at a press conference on Saturday,” reports convention attendee David Virtue, “when I asked Bonnie Anderson, president of the House of Deputies, if she saw the irony in that the House of Deputies would like to see the Church Center at 815 2nd Avenue, New York, sold (it has a $37.5 million mortgage debt and needs $8.5 million to maintain yearly) while at the same time the national church spent $18 million litigating for properties, many of which will lie fallow at the end of the day.”
Above: “Church Center,” the Episcopal headquarters, up for sale.
This is no longer George Washington’s Episcopal Church – in 1776 the largest denomination in the rebellious British colonies. Membership has dropped so dramatically that today there are 20 times more Baptists than Episcopalians.
U.S. Catholics out-number the Episcopal Church 33-to-1. There are more Jews than Episcopalians. Twice as many Mormons. Even the little African Methodist Episcopal denomination — which broke away after the Civil War — has passed the Episcopalians.
Among the old mainstream denominations reporting to the National Council of Churches, the Episcopal Church suffered the worst loss of membership from 1992-2002 — plunging from 3.4 million members to 2.3 million for a 32 percent loss. In the NCC’s 2012 yearbook, the Episcopal Church admitted another 2.71 percent annual membership loss.
Convention attendees were told that they had spent $18 million this year suing their own local congregations — those which have protested the denomination’s policies by trying to secede. The New York hierarchy has consistently won in court – asserting that the local members signed over their buildings decades ago. As a result, some of the largest Episcopal congregations in the United States have been forced to vacate their buildings and meet elsewhere.
So now, convention delegates were told, the denomination is the proud owner of scores of empty buildings nationwide – and liable for their upkeep in a depressed real estate market where empty church buildings are less than prime property. It’s the classic “dog in a manger.” The denomination has managed to keep the buildings – for which it has little use. However, they made their point – refusing to allow the congregations which built the facilities to have any benefit after generations of sacrifice, donations and volunteerism.
“One former Episcopal priest wrote me, ‘The irony is that after all their property suits to get control of empty buildings, they now are losing their main property.’
“But this cost-cutting measure may not be enough to salvage the long term solvency of the Episcopal Church. The church is hemorrhaging money like crazy and no one seems to know how to turn off the spigot.”
“The accelerating fragmentation of the strife-torn Episcopal Church USA,” writes Christian author Charlotte Allen, “in which large parishes and entire dioceses are opting out of the church, isn’t simply about gay bishops, the blessing of same-sex unions or the election of a woman as presiding bishop. It is about the meltdown of liberal Christianity.”
“Liberal Christianity has been hailed by its boosters for 40 years as the future of the Christian church. Instead, as all but a few die-hards now admit, the mainline churches that have blurred doctrine and softened moral precepts are declining and, in the case of the Episcopal Church, disintegrating.”
“On July 8, 2012, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori preached her brand of post-Christian religion while masquerading as a Christian bishop,” reported convention attendee Dr. Sarah Frances Ives.
“She mocked most of the crucial doctrines of the Christian faith, including the God of creation, the Incarnation, and the Trinity. She accomplishes this through her demeaning use of rhetoric. She taunts the Lord by the use of the name ‘Big Man’ and then points her finger at everyone listening and tells them that they have ‘missed the boat.’
Above: Katharine Jefferts Schori, national presiding bishop
“Jefferts Schori then proclaims that she has the answer for this. We all need the ‘act of crossing boundaries’ to become God after which our hands become a ‘sacrament of mission.’
“In this sermon, Jefferts Schori continued her mission of destroying the Christian faith through her rhetorical device of dismissive ridicule.
“Jefferts Schori leaves a wide wake of destruction behind with this sermon: the eternal triune God has been torn down, human beings are to boldly claim our place as God, and the sacraments of the Eucharist and Baptism have been turned into things our hands make. In other words, Jefferts Schori accepts that now humanity, animals and God are one undifferentiated blob. This is essentially a form of solipsism, the belief that self is all that is known to exist. Anyone can see that this is both pure heresy and utter nonsense.
“Episcopalians need to loudly affirm that we are created in the image of God and redeemed by the sacrifice of the Son of God, but no, we are not God ourselves and we are not erasing the boundary between God and humanity. That Jefferts Schori is encouraging humans to cross the frontier into becoming God should be immediately repudiated by all believing Christians.”
“Yesterday,” reported Angela O’Brien from the convention, “the House of Bishops of the Episcopalian Church approved a new provisional blessing for gay unions, while the full General Convention voted in favor of general acceptance for transgender clergy.
“Some Episcopalian bishops spoke out against the resolution on same-sex blessings. Bishop Bauerschmidt, of the Episcopal Diocese of Tennessee, urged the bishops to defeat the resolution.
“The Reverend David Thurlow advocated rejecting the resolution. ‘For two thousand years the Church has had clear teaching regarding Christian marriage and Biblical norms of sexual behavior,’ he said, pointing out that ‘through previous statements and resolutions the Church has pledged itself not to make any change to this traditional teaching.’
Likewise, Bishop Edward Little of Northern Indiana stood against the resolution.
“The Christian world is going to understand us as having changed the nature of the sacrament of holy matrimony,” Bishop Little said. “The Christian world will look at that liturgy world and see vows, and exchange of rings, a pronouncement and a blessing and they will understand that to mean the Episcopal Church has endorsed same-sex marriage and changed a basic Christian doctrine. I do not believe that we are free to do that.”
But few observers were surprised by the transgender and same-sex resolutions.
A few years ago, the annual national Episcopal convention overwhelmingly refused even to consider a resolution affirming that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Beckwith has joined bishops in the dioceses of Central Florida, Dallas, Fort Worth, Pittsburgh, California, and South Carolina in asking their church’s top official, the Archbishop of Canterbury in England, for permission to pull out.
Beckwith says the failure of the resolution introduced by conservatives to declare the church’s “unchanging commitment to Jesus Christ as the son of God, the only name by which any person may be saved” was extremely disturbing.
“When a Christian church cannot bring itself to endorse a bedrock Christian theological statement repeatedly found in the New Testament, it is not a serious Christian church,” wrote Allen.
At this year’s convention, David Virtue reported: “In all the talk about same sex this and transgender that, there is absolutely no talk about sin. A psychologist friend of mine opined that talk of ‘sin’ here would be considered psychologically damaging and offensive to a lot of people, especially gays, so it is off the radar screen. ‘No sin, please; we’re Episcopalians.’
“The national Episcopal AIDS coalition is handing out free male and female condoms to all passersby. I pocketed a few just in case some folks don’t believe me.
“To keep funding for youth ministries alive, a 17-year-old girl stood up in the House of Deputies to say that the Episcopal Church could stay alive if it got into recycling. Poor kid hasn’t got a clue.”
“It must be galling to the Episcopal liberals that many of the parishes and dioceses that are pulling out are growing instead of shrinking,” noted Jay Tower. “Christ Church Episcopal in Plano, Texas, for example, is one of the largest Episcopal churches in the country. Its 2,200 worshipers on any given Sunday are about equal to the number of active Episcopalians in many of the liberal bishops’ entire dioceses, whose churches average attendance is 80.
“One repeated theme is that the conservatives who are pulling out have no confidence in the denomination’s presiding bishop, the arch-liberal Katharine Jefferts Schori. She allows same-sex union ceremonies in her Nevada diocese and recently used the phrase ‘mother Jesus’ in a sermon.”
Why are Episcopalians leaving one of the oldest denominations in America? Perhaps that can be answered by New Hampshire’s V. Gene Robinson, the openly homosexual Episcopal bishop. When he addressed the fifth annual Planned Parenthood “prayer breakfast” April 15, 2006 in Washington, D.C., he declared that “religious people” are the enemy.
“We have allowed the Bible to be taken hostage, and it is being wielded by folks who would use it to hit us over the head,” he said. “The sin of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexual sex but was a failure to care for the poor, the widows and the orphans. Scripture is not as plainspoken as some would have us believe.”
When the conservative Anglican diocese that serves the Fresno, California, area voted to leave the U.S. Episcopal denomination, the national denomination did as it has done in Connecticut, Virginia, Florida and Texas, it fought the diocese in court – seeking to seize all property, which includes millions of dollars worth of sanctuaries, parsonages, parish halls and college campuses.
Observer Giles Fraser says that the liberal national leadership doesn’t have a clue. Citing a vote by the diocese of Pittsburgh, led by Bishop Bob Duncan, Fraser explained: “They are sick to death of liberals telling them that ‘gay’ is OK.”
“Anglicanism is in deep trouble,” writes Fraser, “and so, too, is the Church of England. The fact that 46 members of the church’s general synod, its parliament, have written expressing their support for secessionism, bodes very ill.
“Thus far the Archbishop of Canterbury has maintained the traditional Anglican image via media with impeccable impartiality, trying to hold things together with a generous policy of being kinder to his enemies than his friends.
“But the truth is, the only people who now believe that Anglicanism can survive the current crisis in one piece are those holed up in Lambeth Palace” – the Archbishop’s luxurious headquarters in England.
“Fissures have moved through the Episcopal Church, the American arm of the worldwide Anglican Communion, which has 77 million members, and through the Communion itself, since the church ordained V. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire in 2003,” writes Neela Bannerjee in the New York Times.
Before being named bishop, Robinson deserted his wife and children to take up with a homosexual lover – something that conservative Episcopalians see as adulterous infidelity severely compounded by sexual sin and perversion – certainly enough to disqualify Robinson from any kind of leadership.
They consider the Episcopal Church’s ordination of Robinson as the “most galling proof of its rejection of biblical authority,” writes Bannerjee.
“In the last four years, the Anglican Communion, the world’s third largest Christian body, has edged closer to fracture over the issue. In the United States, several dozen individual congregations out of nearly 7,700 have split with the Episcopal Church.”
The Fresno vote was the first time an entire diocese chose to secede.
The Reverend Ephraim Radner, a leading Episcopal conservative and professor of historical theology at Wycliffe College in Toronto, predicted a huge legal battle – since the national headquarters has vowed to hold onto any buildings of congregations leaving the denomination.
“The costs involved will bleed the Diocese of San Joaquin and the Episcopal Church, and it will lead only to bad press,” said Radner. “You have to wonder why people are wasting money doing this and yet claiming to be Christians.”
Article courtesy of Beliefnet.com, the distinct online resource for inspiration and spirituality where you’ll find thousands of inspiring features, uplifting stories and access to other great resources.
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Comments (318)
acovenantinblood
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:25amChristianity in America has relegated itself into insanity. They continue to do the same things and expect a different result. Pastors are asleep at the wheel as the nation slips further and further into chastisement for the “church” being worldly and degenerate and they won’t even stand up. They must believe that darkness just grows as some sovereign mystery of God and not when “Christians” stop acting like followers of Christ. Remember, the same God that so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son said be ye holy as I AM holy. And also set no unclean thing before your eyes. John Bunyan was right when he said: `Alas! alas! there is a company of half priests in the world; they dare not teach the people the whole counsel of God because in so doing they will condemn themselves and their manner of living in the world;’
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:45amI think we had the same mindset……
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. — Jesus
14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. — Jesus
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. — Jesus
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. —– Jesus
Revelation 2:5 : ver 16, 2
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:13amEach Church Angel… is a sequential existence… is an Age… is a Period of Servatude… is 400 years… being this is the Begining of the 6th Age, Philadelphia…
Report Post »TH30PH1LUS
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:16am“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46)
“They are corrupt and not his children;
to their shame they are a warped and crooked generation.” (Deuteronomy 32:5)
“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.” (2 Peter 2:20)
Report Post »Alismum
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:18amTo those Christians who would like to return to the fullness of the teaching of Christ, please come back to the Catholic Church which has not changed her doctrine to suite current fads. Christ promised that the Church would be protected by they Holy Spirit in regards to faith and morals and even though we are a Church of sinners, God has protected the doctrine of our faith. Welcome home!
Report Post »Wayner
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:20amSleazyhippos has hit the nail on the very center of the head. Revelations 2-3
Report Post »Irishtech
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:41amAre you trying to say each church will only last 400 years?
Report Post »thetrumpet2012
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:48amhttp://www.thetrumpet.com
Report Post »RANGER1965
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:50am“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”
Hmmmm….sounds abundantly clear to me. Any questions?
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:54amThe reason I left Christianity for two reasons. The first break was because my church enacted policies just like the Episcopal church. They supposedly took delegates to vote on these measures but the fix was in and our conservative delegate reported what was done. I decided to stay on because at the time the pastor and most of the congregation was pretty solid. At the same time we had a bunch of sactimonious jerks in the congregation who I tolerated for years. They drummed the pastor out with bogus and embarassing and unfounded charges I think because he didn’t embrace this new change. I saw good Christians leave after that and the search for a new church began when my wife and I sat and prayed about it.
My family became migrant Christians who tried out several churches. Some churches were filled with liberals who placed political ideology before spiritual ideology–they were intolerant of conservatives. Other churches were fomenting fundamentalists who were the most overbearing and brutal people I’ve ever met. Their love of god was a sanctimonious beat down of just how righteous they were and just how wretched anybody but them was. There was very little in between. Of the ones I liked I found that I was warping god around my own image and not the other way around. I’ve since moved on to another faith, a non Abraham faith and have been happy and prospered ever since. I’m sickened by you Christians with your “love” but I do wish you peace.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:55am@IRISH…
Report Post »GOD sent the Hebrews for a 400 year period of Servatude… the only Divine Definition of Time in the Bible… and a Church is a “calling out” Service… thereby a 400 year period… where the Old Testament is Prophecy and the New Testament is Fulfillment – Begining to Reveling!
sensibleadult
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:02amThe Episcopal church is a joke even without this problem.
Report Post »makamae
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:12amCovenant – I can’t agree that Christianity in America is relegating itself into insanity. It’s obvious to anyone who knows what Christianity actually is, that the Episcopal church is NOT, and has not been for some time, a “Christian” church. You can see this in their inability to recognize Jesus as Lord. What this makes them is hard to put a label on.
Alismum – There is no returning to the Roman Catholic church for those of us who have never been in the Roman Catholic church. Frankly, there would be no point, anyway. The Roman Catholic church relies on a myriad of rules and regulations, punishments, worship of idols, and a loooooooong list of requirements to obtain salvation. Jesus Christ, however, simply said that we must be born again.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:13am@ WILDAPE…you sound bitter to me friend. While I can appreciate your experiences and I can certainly agree there are many who either are so “free” they cease to be holy, or those that are so legalistic that they pervert the real message of grace and instead pronounce judgment on everyone and everything even if it comes down to matters of preference rather than scripture based. However, we must not make the fallacy of judging Jesus/God and his word based on the faults and sins (they are great and many) of Christians. First even Jesus said MANY will say on that day Lord, Lord and he will plainly tell them go away into darkness for I never knew you (many will think they are a christian when in fact they are not). There are also wolves in sheeps clothing (meant to lQQk like sheep when in fact they are evil). I say this because I believe you have been disheartened by the actions of people. God has revealed who he is through his son Jesus. Jesus said I am the door no one comes to the Father except through me. There is a day coming when all will give an account to him and no justifications will excuse us from being obedient to his word and to his gospel. There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads only to death. Believe it or not there are sincere people who care about you and others like you who have been mistreated and hurt by “christians” be them real or not…Thanks in advance…
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:21am@ LUKE….off topic but your comment got me thinknig about something I studied a while ago that I find interesting (hopefully you will too). The reason the number 7 is a holy or perfect number is interesting it has to do with the sum of God (trinity) working out his pleasure to perfection within creation often noted in scripture as N,E, S, and W or the 4 corners of the Earth. Hence 3 (trinity) + (sum of God doing his work) 4 (Earth) = 7. Also if we apply this to the 12 tribes and 12 apostles we can see that the product (x) of God working in the OT and NT is similar 3 x 4 = 12…Pretty cool I think. The if we add both 12 from the OT to the 12 from the NT we arrive at 24 (elders). I think the 24 elders spoken of in Rev is actually a numerical symbol representing all of the saved children of God from the OT to and thru the NT….Now I am not trying to start a debate with anyone because I know these are difficult areas with varrying beliefs but it seems pretty neat to me and interesting, not to mention logical. Numbers have meanings other than just indicating amounts.
Report Post »AvengerK
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:23amThis was predicted in the New Testament:
Jesus and his annointed apostles told us 2000 years ago that parts of the church would pervert God into the image of man and pander to man’s failings…
“because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature (man) rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”- Romans 1:25
This is what the Episcopal Church here has done…they‘ve perverted God’s word and now worship man not God. They worship man by bowing to social lobby groups and giving the sacrament of the church to perversions like cross-dressing and homosexual marriage. Things that the bible (both old and new testaments) explicitly says are sins. The Episcopal Church here no longer serves Christ and so those in it‘s congregations that still understand Christ’s covenant with us are fleeing from it.
Report Post »AvengerK
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:36amWILDAPE…don’t abandon the church for the failings of men.
Many denominations and congregations worship Christ as he should be worshipped without playing on politics both in the church and in the public arenas.
I attend an Orthodox church with the most warmest and benign congregation you can hope to find. The priest is a good man who even when he reaches the part of the mass where he compares the aspects of our lives to the teachings in the bible, he doesn’t overtly politicize anything. Don’t give up on the church..that’s what the devil wants us to do. That’s why this Episcopal church and the church you described have perverted the word and elevated man over Christ. And don‘t think the bible doesn’t address this and didn’t foresee it. Read Romans 1:25 [...], it‘s frighteningly accurate to what’s happening with this Episcopal church right now.
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:54am@sleazyhippo Thank you for your well wishes and sentiment. I still revere Christ and his teachings. Back when I was a Christian I accepted his Grace and was babtised and with a full heart. I still read the Bible from time to time but not daily as I once did. It probably seems odd to most Christians that I can still honor a god despite worshipping others but that is because I have a polytheist mindset now. It is a stretch for you but not for me.
I’m not sure what you mean by “a man so free that they cease to be holy” but I agree that a man who is “free” of gods can become monstrous. I’ve also seen people so swelled up with zealotry that they become them too. I can’t remember the Psalm off the top of my skull but it is the one that talks about “Lord your enemies are my enemies” ,mixed with Psalm 68 which is a curse hurled at ones personal spiritual enemies. It has been my experience that Christians are harder on other denominations than they are with non Christian. Maybe their curses work. My faith has a strict code of conduct and I don‘t break it because I dont’ want to face the consequences but I also do not want to lose honor among those of my fellowship. My failure or success is their failure and success theirs is mine. We buck each other up and support each other in ways that most churches only talk about. I suppose I am bitter about the time I wasted as a Christian. I think the Episcopals died out a long time ago. They just didn’t know it
Report Post »oneshiner
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:02pmWildape:
Don’t blame God for bad experiences at a church. Just because they tickle your ears, doesn’t mean all churches are like you describe. (but I know what you mean)
Funny, just few weeks ago it was all about how evil the Mormon church was……well, I’d say most mormons show more empathy toward each other than many of the main-stream churches out there.
So, please don’t abandon God because some churches are more social clubs and leave God out. They are luke-warm and God will spew them out of his mouth. So, get out there and find a church that teaches the WORD, pleeze!
Report Post »Read the bible on your own, and you’ll know God is real, people can be sinful.
Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:19pm@avengerk Don’t be concerned avengerk. I‘m fine but that ship has sailed and I’ve moved on and I am much better for it. My friend, the poisons that invade the Episcopal church stem from the poisons of monotheism. In monotheism there can only be one and ONLY one. That is why you see so much division and devisiveness among the Abrahamic faiths. The Jews consider themselves the chosen race and they fight about which branch is closest to their god. They are splintered and fractured even though they are the chosen. Christians suffer from the same poisoning and every church that I went to was convinced that one size fit all of humanity. It doesn’t and that is why you see so many denominations. In monotheism there is no choice. The Muslims fight over who has the blessings of Allah be it Shite or Sunni. Yet they all worship the same god. I think it is a case of mass neurosis stemming from monotheism.
I once went to a Christian gathering of all the church leaders of a small Christian community and we were discussing the Columbine massacre. They argued and argued about who and how they would lead the event with prayer. Even in the face of evil they couldn‘t get together on a simple prayer to ask for their god’s blessing.
If I had a stone for every church that said the same as you I’d have a church the size of the Great Pyramid. It would still be as dead and empty. I‘d rather go to my gods where their worshippers don’t murder their god’s incarnated f
Report Post »Southern Rebel
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:31pm@Wildape- I fully understand why you did what you did, leaving the christian church altogether. I did so myself many many years ago, but there was one major difference between what you and I did as a reaction to the reality in today’s christianity. I stayed very close to the Lord, in fact, I‘m probably closer to Him now than ever and don’t even call myself a ‘christian’. Anyone can be a ‘christian’, but not everyone can be the Lords.
Report Post »Chalenge for ya: Ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you in a way you would understand. Just give Him the faith the size of a mustard seed to show Himself to you, and He’ll do it.
You’ll realize there is a giant difference between religion (which the christian church is) and the truth, which is in His word. You don‘t need to ’play’ church on Sundays like everyone else..that is not required of you. Seek Him Wildape…you will find Him, and not have to be involved in the ‘reindeer’ games of christianity. :) God Bless and may His will be done. :)
lukerw
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:31pm@SLEAZY…
Agreed. 4 is the Number of Mercy; 5 Grace; 6 Man-Wisdom. Jacob had 12 sons, 1 daughter — 12 Apostles +1 (Mary). In the 2nd year of the Exodus, God imposed 40 years upon the Hebrews — 42 = Death… and only 2 Men survived the Exodus, the others being a New Generation.
T’is Interesting!
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:49pm@oneshiner I have tried the LDS church. Most are nice people. The long and short was that I couldn’t see myself defending a lot of their histories and practices. I think their book is a fabrication and that is something that I could not ignore. I have many family members who are Mormon and to be honest I had to overcome a lot of bad history with them just to give the LDS an honest try. If your church works for you then embrace it oneshiner and count yourself blessed.
There are a lot of people crowing about the Episcopal church crumbling. What they don’t see is the hardship that their former worshippers face. Finding a church home isn’t easy. One must truly know what they believe spiritually and most churches will not fit. They will be ostracized. They will be warmly greeted at some churches and then ignored because they have no friends there and it will be confusing. Some will be ignored coldly. Their babtism will be doubted and their oaths to god called into question. They will feel alone and they will doubt and their prayers to their god will be as foggy as they have always been. It will be a mammoth test of their faith. There were times when I was willing to fake it and just go with a church to make my wife feel better. My faith wasn’t a hobby, it was a belief that I held strong. I still do. I’m glad that your god ignored my years of prayers. I would never have found my new faith had he answered them and I’d be poorer for it.
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 1:15pm@southern rebel That is without a doubt the BEST advice to give. Actually, like you I became closer to god after breaking off from the old church. It was more a break from the congregation than from the diety. When you are on your own you know that you are spirutually vulnerable. As the head of the family I knew that the spiritual leadership was not something that I could mismanage. The result was a lot more praying and lot more reading of the Bible. I tried to be careful not to create god in my own image as I think this is one of the greatest fallacies that a solitary faithful has. Believe me. I prayed because I knew the danger I was in. My wife, who is to this day a Christian, at the time became so disheartened with trying to find a church home that she would refuse to go on Sundays. I then had a mutiny with the children. I suppose a good god fearing fundamentalist would have beaten the snot out of his wife but that isn’t my way. I think that is wrong. Instead I argued, pleaded, begged, and did a lot of praying. To this day I’m fuzzy on why god added that into the mix. Today she goes to church and I stay home. The kids are gone, one goes to church, one is a strong Christian, and the other an aethiest. All according to god’s plan I guess.
For me I made that prayer and strangely enough that is how I ended up in the new faith that I am in. Trouble is, I now worship other gods. The world makes a lot more sense though. Maybe it is a part of his plan.
Report Post »Mojoron
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 1:23pmMany christian writers wrote that the Church will go through apostasy and that those who continue the narrow path will be saved. There is absolutely nothing a conservative, orthodox christian can do except to pray and stay on that narrow road. Reformation has the effect which fragments the Body of Christ, people like Schori are nothing but modern day Lucifers. We cannot change their minds, only the threat of hell will do that. The only hope for American Episcopal leaders is to get so many worthless properties that they end up in bankruptcy which will allow the original owners to get the properties back.
Report Post »hayesstephen
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 1:30pmAmen! I’m a Presbyterian and Liberals are ever so slowly taking over or church. Yahweh God demands proper acts, thinking. He damns certain things. The day that liberals finally take control, that is the day I become an ex Presbyterian. Baby killers, cross dressing, same sex marriage, denial that Jesus is the only son of God, that Christ is a muslim, Liberalism are all things that have no business in my Church. May Yahweh God forgive our nation, and our people, Bless our nation and Israel in these most dangerous of times.
Report Post »claymoremacm
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 2:09pmSatan’s Church now,and it makes me sick!! I was confermined in this Church,I am now embarassed to ever be part of this Church,I hope God will not hold it against me
Report Post »jtcbamboo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 2:30pm@ Wildape
Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your path.
I’m sorry to hear you had bad experiences with churches, but I believe this verse can clarify it for you. People can claim to be “christians” but many are tied up in doctrine and can be very unchrist like. When looking for a church we shouldn’t be using our minds and judging, but trusting in God to lead us. Many people are criticizing, looking for that perfect church, but if you ever find it won’t be perfect anymore, because you just stepped in! :P I don’t mean to be offensive in anyway. I just want to encourage you to try find a biblical, spirit-filled church and stick with it, because no matter where you go, someone will eventually fail you at any church.
God didn’t intend for your family to be so split in their beliefs, that is Satan’s doing. He wants to deceive and put in many alternatives to Christ so that people get lost. That is why there are so many denominations within the christian church, because many have been deceived to follow their minds and not trust in the Lord. I want to encourage you to try out a local bible-based, spiritual church that stands true to God’s word and does not compromise to man-made doctrine (their own understanding) or the world. There, I believe is where you will find a church blessed by God, not a perfect church, but a church that God will work through to help
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:03pm@jtcbamboo I appreciate the source from where your well wishes come from and thank you. Trust me, I don’t suffer. I’m not conflicted with whether or not I must embrace homosexualty or reject it and how it fits around my faith. There are a thousand things that I don’t have to trouble myself with that you Christians war between yourselves with. My gods do not need me to fight their battles. They aren’t jealous gods. They affirm nature and the good earth, they don’t reject it. I wasn‘t born into sin and therefore needing to be cleansed by a god who can’t stand sin anymore. I have real freedom. I have added responsibilities with this faith because I have a code to live by and binding oaths with my fellowship. It is you that I feel sorry for.
Today it is the Episcopals that fall. And tomorrow it might be your church that dies while other fellow Christians egg it on and talk about how unrepentent and ungodly you are and how if you had only listened to god and prayed that you wouldn’t be in that mess. Nature fills a vacuum and although more will join our ranks we are not equipped nor willing to take you all in. I fear for what happens to those outside and what things will fill their heads. There are monsters worse than disillusioned Christians out there. Most of your churches are filled with the elderly and will die off when they do. The Episcopal church was once a mighty fellowship. You may think that your church is eternal but it is not. May you fin
Report Post »scarebear83
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:35pmWildape- Have you ever considered the churches of Christ? Nothing but the Bible is taught. No creeds, no doctrines of men, no synods, or earthly headquarters.
Something you said got me wondering, you said you moved from monotheism to polytheism, so I have to ask do think that moving from one true God to several gods is the answer? You said you were also afraid of consequences should you break your code of conduct, so I have some questions, do your gods hear you? Do your gods always agree? What do your gods teach about salvation?
The reason there are so many denominations and so many different beliefs is not because there is a God problem but because man has decided to turn what God has said into their own doctrines, telling people what they want to hear. Man is the cause for division, for suffering, for pain in this world, not God. I hope you’ll ponder on that.
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 4:32pm@scarebear83 The answer is yes I have been there. I liked that each member brought a Bible to the church and read along with the pastor/preacher. My unsolicited advice to you is to stick with your church if it works and beware of the questions you ask or your mental path will lead you to where I am. Moving from monotheism to polytheism for me was the answer because I think mankind is naturally polytheiestic. Many Christian faiths have tried to adopt a quasi polytheistic pantheon through the Holy Trinity, Mother Mary, and Saints. The question you ask is through the lens of monotheism. Your god is a jealous god. Mine are not, so seeking their favor isn’t despised by other gods and my prayers have been responded to in ways that are tangible to me. That wasn’t so clear with my experience with my Christian god. It was murky on whether or not the answer was yes, no, try harder, have more faith, or if I was ignored. My gods do not always agree and they have different personalities. My fellowship is a foundation set on binding oaths both to our fellowship and our gods. So if we break our oaths then it reflects on the entire group. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say and if someone cries for help you had better show up. That is why we are careful about who we accept into our ranks. We are not born into sin therefore do not need salvation. There is no forgiving. You pay the price if you cross a god or the fellowship. We loathe oath breakers.
Report Post »VerySeniorCitizen
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 6:12pmCross Dressing Clergy!
OK, has anyone noticed that ALL clergy are cross dressers?? Catholic chirch – The Pope, Cardinals, Priests – NONE of whom are allowedt to marry – ALL wear dresses when conducting services – and regular men’s clothing when on the street.
My point is this. WHAT does it matter how anyone dresses? Isn’t what is in the heart, mind and actions which count???
I’m old enough to remember when – if a woman/girl wore long pants – she was considered a *****. How many of us today would think that just a wee bit bizarre?? But, on the other hand, don‘t women ’cross-dress’ – even today – when they wear pant-suits in the business world??
Report Post »Native54
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 6:32pmCompletely agree “acovenantinblood” The apostates have taken over the Episcopal Church. And there are multitudes of the same in other denominations.
Report Post »scarebear83
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:25pmWildape- If there is no need for salvation then is there an afterlife? You said your gods don’t always agree then one of them must have the truth and only one should be followed right? For example one says that an apple is purple, the other says it’s red, the other says blue… they can’t all be right.
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:44pmFirst Mistake, Leaving the Catholic Church just so Henry could divorce his wifes; Second was allowing Women to be Priests (Not set up for it, great on nurturing, not so much other duties) ; Third Mistake was taking all LIBERAL SIDES in Politics, to the point of bringing BIG SCREEN TV on to the ALTER in Pas. to tout GORE; Forth Mistake was allowing GAYS to become Priests; Now Cross-Dressers.
Report Post »Catholics wrote most of the Common Prayer Book; they did write the Bible; they are the same yesterday-today-tomorrow and all serious Christians who want to worship Our Lord Jesus are welcomed. The arrogance of some of the Episcopal Priests has undone them “Decide (indeed) If Christ were actually GOD’s Son or a very good teacher…” Couldn’t happen to a nicer group of
pagans. Come join the real deal and fall in love all over again! There is no room for flaunting God’s very instructions!
Todd P
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:29pm@ ALISMUM : “please come back to the Catholic Church”
I’ve been an Episcopalian for 32 years, was raised in the Catholic school system, and would love to join the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, they will not have me. My first marriage was in a Catholic Church; it lasted (loveless) for 7 years, then was legally divorced. Now I am very happily married to a woman for 6 years (she is also Catholic), and we have a 3 month old child. The rector of the local Catholic Cathedral here in FL has told us I cannot join unless I pay the Church hundreds of dollars so they can trace down my ex-wife, and question her about the situation that led to our divorce which occurred in 1993. REALLY???!!!!!
I think not. But I wonder if Jesus would reject me? My first marriage was a mistake – we all make them. My current marriage is to my soul-mate; I thought I would never find her. So now I am banned from the Catholic Church because I will not allow them to harass my ex-wife and re-open old (very old) wounds? What happened to FORGIVENESS? What happened to the love of Christ?
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 4:14amTODD P: the most wonderful thing to me after the Eucharist is the Magisterium. It is the greatest research library in existence. IT is one of the main reasons that the Catholic Church has survived all the trauma over the centuries. Part of the SAME yesterday, today and tomorrow, is following the rules. I hope that instead of your being bitter, you will be able to see it from their POV and will enlist GOD’S help in resolving this issue. My son had to do similar and I was quite miffed at first, but then understood it and he is so blessed and happy now. The greatest shock to most non-Catholics is that unlike most churches, they are not standing on the street corner trying to rope people into becoming members. It’s not easy. It takes RCIA classes; it takes study and prayer. Even with all of that we have had the odd demon slip in, but they can’t have rules for some and not for all. I hope you will at least have a discussion with your Priest about your feelings (and hopes) and I’m sure you can work it out. They aren’t singling you out, I can assure you of that. Even if it seems like it. Good luck and Go to GOD on this. You won’t be sorry!
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 6:55amacove… unless they follow Christ they are not a christian church and from what i have read the church has ceased to exist.
Report Post »Dragonfire
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 11:40amWildape
Report Post »It seems you NEED to have a group of people to have a relationship with GOd. YOu talk of your religion as having Gods. You also talk of collective salvation. God doesn’t want a group of people. He wants you to have a relationship with him alone. Christianity is not about building or some ideology of a greoup. It is so simple. God the total God head can manifest into our form and understanding (Jesus, Malchesidech) and also can communicate through his holy spirit. Aflter the tempel veil was torn, we no longer even need a priest to get to God. We call (pray) to God and use the name Jesus to show that we knolw he manifested as one of his flesh creations. He knows what we feel and the pain and that is tghe reason he can defeat Satan. Satan could always say that GOd doesn’t understand you because he is noit like his creation. Well now he can’t so he gets destroyed along with all those that pervert or go against God. I don’t go to a formal “church” for the same reasons you stated. I can have “church” whenever I find a true believer that is not caught up in th TRADITIONS of mand that make void the word of God. You don‘t need a church building or a group of people that don’t understand but the “faith” you have chosen is wrong also. It worships gods and your salvation is predicated on others salvation. Wrong choice but yours to make. I will not bid you fair well since to do so is to encourage you down the wrong path. I will encourage you to get a bible teacher to
THERAPTURCOMES
Posted on July 15, 2012 at 10:15amIt boggles my mind how it is clearly stated in more than one way just how God detests sins of and especially those of asexual nature, and these people have the nerve to claim to represent God.
Here is are two verse that the homosexual crowd over looked Jude 6-7
Those that seek strange flesh just like Sodom and Gomorrah and just like the fallen angels will be thrown into the lake of fire.
How is that not clear?
Report Post »INTHEBROTHERHOOD
Posted on July 15, 2012 at 3:12pmpattyhenry………..please.listen to yourself…….calling other religions pagans……telling todd not to feel singled out….they do that to everyone……of course they do….its protocall……status quo……….the same yesterday today and tomorrow…..local parish priests that will help you through the perils of there theology and rules..antique orders of nuns that teach discipline and torture…pedophiles, who cant marry. a pope who sits as God himself….get a grip man….just because they face the congragation and speak english now, doesnt by any means set them rightious in religiosity. im just sayin….
Report Post »Wildape
Posted on July 15, 2012 at 4:19pm@dragonfire I have not said anything about collective salvation–ever. You couch your questions through the monotheistic lens of your god. Salvation is an Abrahamist thing in that you must attain your gods approval to go to heaven or you get punished and go to hell. It does not open itself to the possibility of other gods with the exception of the first commandment which is “thou shalt have no gods before me”. As for not needing a church, well, I’ve found that to be true. For a while I worshipped by myself thinking it was part of god’s plan. When you are alone like that there is no one checking your thinking is what I’m saying. I also made friends when I went to various churches. It wasn’t like they were all bad people, they were just people.
@scarebear88 I say this with respect for you scarebear. Asking those kind of questions is what leads you to my path. This isn‘t the forum for this discussion and frankly I won’t reveal what my gods would or would not do except to say that there is an afterlife. Depending on how I live it–matters a great deal to them as our afterlife is varied. We are our deeds. Technically, as I understand Christianity, it is never too late for salvation. That means that even Hitler could have been saved. We don’t have such a thing. You are your deeds in my faith. That is why I was repelled by Christians with too many hippocrits and weak chinned cowards that drown out the brave and true. I’m sorry that your churces ar
Report Post »Detroit paperboy
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:25amPeople vote with their feet…..bye bye.
Report Post »Cavallo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:56amThey’ll have to come up with a whole new name. They can’t call themselves the New Episcopal Church because so much negative actions are associated with the old name. Maybe the Evangelical Anglican church, or the American Anglican Church, if they want to keep with the traditions of the Church of England. However, there are a lot of problems with the Church of England, some of them along the same lines as the American Episcopal Church. They’ll have to chart new territory.
Report Post »chips1
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 7:05pmThe name “Branch Divedians” isn’t being used.
Report Post »bdandsl
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:21amRip!
Report Post »NOBALONEY
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:17amHell is a very crowded place
Report Post »may40
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:35amWhat’s sad is that they stomp over the cross and what Jesus did there. We are under grace but certainly NOT to sin intentionally. Soon and very soon the Lord will return for a church w/o spot or wrinkle.
Report Post »Bum thrower
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:43amThe truth is that the Church of England‘ is a ’state sponsored, approved’ religion….when Rome wouldn’t bend, well, we‘ll just do ’our own thing’ at Wesminster abby!!….we‘ll let the clergy marry so we don’t have any bastards popping up that have to be supported ‘under the pews’……LOL
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:15amJOB… Satan goes to and fro upon the Earth: this is your Hell!
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:05pm@Bum — The Roman church had married clergy for the first millenia. Then a monastic pope demanded his fellow priests give up wives and children to remain a priest.
Report Post »Dismayed Veteran
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:14amA church that was created in sin still does not recognize sin. What a surprise. The Episcopal Church is in a death spiral. Their focus on social justice has failed and they are no longer a Christian church. Social justice is a false trail to follow. It only leads to extinction.
Report Post »DetritusScreener
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:39amSocial justice is false justice. The reason being, you are going into arbitration with a bias from the very start. How can you have true justice then?
Report Post »Iamnotanumber
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 2:54pmJanusz Korwin-Mikke argues simply: “Either ‘social justice’ has the same meaning as ‘justice’ – or not. If so – why use the additional word ‘social?’ We lose time, we destroy trees to obtain paper necessary to print this word. If not, if ‘social justice’ means something different from ‘justice’ – then ‘something different from justice’ is by definition ‘injustice’”
Report Post »ccfonten
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:53pmGod the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (the Trinity) will be the only one to judge who is fallen into permanent sin and the only one who will pass judgement and sentence.
Report Post »NONE of us have the right or knowledge to be judge and jury on others. But as a born and bred Episcopalian, I simply cannot accept the direction my beloved church has taken. Satan has been very, very busy in my church.
I am a Christian, and will always remain a Christian, yet I am distressed with the decay of morals and the teachings of the so-called leadership in my church is going (has gone).
Jesus Christ is my savior and my Lord and always will be.
As far as my choice of denomination (which Christian one to go to!) I am leaning toward Catholicism. And that is not perfect either, yet seems to call to me.
DetritusScreener
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:13amThe Episcopal Church is now the Church and religion of homosexuals. If you don’t want to be part of their lifestyle, you have to find a different church. Homosexuals have defiled Episcopalians. They target a specific group and take it over with their own radical behavior just like Muslims. Now, anytime homosexuals and religion are mentioned together, the Episcopal Church automatically comes to mind. Episcopalians may not ever be able to remove the gay taint now.
Report Post »Todd P
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:03pmI told my priest yesterday that we are leaving the Episcopal Church because of this heresy. Ironically, I was lay-reader there this past Sunday, when the Gospel lesson was to preach the Truth and if it is rejected, shake the dust from you sandals as a rebuke and leave them to the judgment of God. Just 4 days later, I find myself doing this very thing – to my church of 32 years. Very sad.
Report Post »pauliepie
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:10amSimply put, they’ve given up the Bible.
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:21amBingo!
Report Post »Ohello
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 1:05amYou cannot “know” another person unless that person reveals himself to you. There are various methods you learn about another person. One is that a person can tell you about himself, the other is that you observe their actions and thus get a glimpse of that person’s character. They can “show” you who they are.
So it is with God…. He tells you about Himself in the Holy Scriptures, and he shows you about Himself through His Creation and His interventions into His Creation. So Christ is a demonstration of God’s Character, Mercy, Authority, Grace, Judgement, and Power. God showed us all we need to know when He sent Christ and made Himself known through Scripture. Anything else is less than the best. Christ said “It is finished”.
BTW Only God can let you into Heaven, Christ is the key, you can never make it on your own cognizance.
Report Post »AllLost
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:10amIf you don’t like the rules why claim your part of the group? I don’t blame folks for disagreeing with the tenets of the Bible, but dang it you can’t go change things to suit you and still call yourself part of the group.
Ah the smell of brimstone in the morning.
Report Post »HorseCrazy
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 1:10pmagreed but how any of these people can claim to have actually read the bible…these people are absolute nuts. I remember several verses about false teachers leading believers astray, sad to watch such an old institution be destroyed by liberal dogma once again. seems that liberalism destroys everything it touches like a certain fallen angel we have all read about
Report Post »thibx
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:09amthis is a church of satan. read the bible they are all going to hell.
Report Post »Jenny Lind
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:08amMany times on this blog we hear others angry with their church. Mostly its those who don’t want to live the tenants of their faith. I am blown away how it’s the leaders in this church that do not want to. Let the righteous go and build their own buildings and worship what their church used to teach, and remember their faith is not built of cement, wood, etc. Brush the dust from your feet as you leave, I am sorry you have faithless leaders, but I am happy you know and want to live the right way. You can buy the buildings back from the bankruptcy hopefully. Stay strong in following the teachings of the Bible.
Report Post »German Dude
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:07amTurn out the lights the parties overrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Report Post »Tregonsee
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:07amThey used to bill the Episcopal Church as one where you didn’t need to check your mind at the door. (One poster read: Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind!) These days you do, but not for the old reasons. But honestly, look around at the purely secular world. You see the same willful refusal to deal with reality, all the while people claiming they are.
Report Post »REPUB1
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:57am“The sin of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexual sex” Oh Really Define Sodom In The Biblical Way Then ***** !!!!!!!!
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:40amMy guess is they assert that because in the NT it states that their (Sodom) great sin was forgetting the poor. However, this was just an indication of what led them into such great abomination and their final condition before they were destroyed. Because they had no concern for others, they became very self-loving, which leads to self-pleasing, which leads to self-indulgence, which leads to self-destruction. They are using poor hermeneutics and trying to justify what the rest of scripture clearly teaches is sin…thanks
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:14pmTo a desert or near desert culture, inhospitality is a HUGE sin. If you read Matthew 10:5-15, you will see Jesus condemn Sodom for inhospitality not immorality. This is why Abraham is doubly blessed for his hospitality offered to strangers.
****$exual $ex is forbidden in other places and for good reason.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 4:04pm@ ELENA…I am afraid I cannot agree with your statement. Matthew 10 does not address what you stated it does. It simply says it will be more bearable for them in the judgment. Not a big deal I guess and not to be argumentative but I believe that scripture would say two reasons they were destroyed. They did not take care of the poor.
Ezekiel 16
49 ” ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy
and
Jude
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
I believe my first statement was accurate in regaurd to the scripture. Again not a big deal really. Let me know if I misunderstood you (entirely possible). Thanks in advance….
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 4:52pmSleazy — He was talking abt towns that were inhospitable, in this case, to His disciples. In Jude, you have the interpretation of sexual misconduct.
The plain by Sodom and sister cities was lush at the time of this event. It no longer is – part of the penalty of inhospitality to strangers.
The Israelites are called to be generous to the sojourner in their land since they were sojourners once, too. It’s part of the culture. It still is in traditional Bedouin areas. After you leave, they may come cut your throat and steal your belongings, but if you are under the tent, they are required to be hospitable.
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 5:01pmSleazy — The Ezekiel passage blankets general inhospitality. So many rely solely on the Jude passage to say it was a sex sin and leave it at that.
Both were destroyed, pretty much for all time. God got his message across. He is unconfused as to the conduct He expects of humans, made in His image. Sexual sins do tend to destroy more quickly than other sins since they strike directly at individual basic identity. Fm birth, we are male and female. This is by God’s design and plan. Sin gets in the way and destroys. Jesus’ Death makes atonement for the sin. His Resurrection returns new life to us here and now as well as in the “sweet by-and-by.”
H0m0sexuality is a sin; period. The bishops would do well to read Ezekiel ch 34 as it’s aimed at their current conduct and so-called theology. Jesus’ Return is coming soon and will take these so-called church leaders by surprise!
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:00pm@ ELENA…I’m afraid we will just have to agree to disagree about the hospitality point. I believe you are arriving at that conclusion of hospitality being the main issue by inference. However, I do agree with you that sexual sin is a serious serious issue that God does not take lightly. The other is not that big of a deal. I just believe the hermeneutics does not support the hospitality being the main issue in the destruction of Sodom and her sister cities. Nevertheless, I appreciate your heart and your comments. God bless…..
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 9:46am@ ELENA……I don’t know your background but perhaps this site can summarize what I believe is the best exegesis of the Sodom story and why hospitality is not the main emphasis, greed and homosexuality were ….Thank you..
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5702
Report Post »INTHEBROTHERHOOD
Posted on July 15, 2012 at 3:21pmit was PRIDE…that did them in. immorality was down the list a bit….Pride was the first reason.
Report Post »snapperman
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:55amWithout moral standards a church is not a church.
Report Post »strawberry411a
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:47amGee. A church founded because an aristocrat had a temper tantrum…over sex. Let it collapse.
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:00amHenry the Vlll? Is he not the one who dumped his Spanish wife for Ann Bolyn because his wife could not bear a son..going against the church of England..then he married Ann and she had a daughter and he had her beheaded for different reasons..but their daughter Elizabeth became the first female heir to rule and she did quite an amazing job 40 yrs wasn’t it?
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:02am5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. — Jesus
14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. — Jesus
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. — Jesus
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. —– Jesus
Revelation 2:5 : ver 16, 22; Rev 3:3,
Report Post »donnyho
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:21amAshes….what Henry VIII did not know is that it was what he contributed to the resulting child that determined the sex of the child. Women have been blamed for so many things throughout written history when they had nothing to do with the perceived problem. I guess that might be attributed to Adam blaming Eve for giving him the forbidden fruit when it is obvious refusal was not an option (/sarcasm). Of course, when one is deceived one does not know he is deceived.
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:21pmIt was more complicated than that. Henry was an official “defender of the faith” (awarded by the pope). But if the pope granted him a divorce fm Catherine, the pope would lose the support of the Spanish and lose his own little war. So he cut his losses and dumped Henry. Popes had a long line of papal annulments of royal marriages that failed for whatever reasons. Henry was not asking something unusual. He had the bad luck of bad timing w/the wrong woman.
The problem originated in the Middle Ages when popes became secular princes as well as religious authorities. Even Pope Benedict is a secular prince at the Vatican. The Protestant Reformation makes way for what we call “separation betw church and state.”
Report Post »LucyFurr
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 11:20amAmen.
Report Post »REPUB1
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:43am“Convention attendees were told that they had spent $18 million this year suing their own local congregations” Why Didnt Those MORONS Just Leave That So Called church, Instead Of Spending Money On Nothing???? Sheeple Poor Sheeple Have No Sorrow For Any Of Them
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:40amThey should change their name to “The Church of Modern Day Radicals/Deviants”. I imagine many Episcopalians are very, very unhappy with all the changes.
Report Post »50211bs
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:55amOr OWS church.
Report Post »RetiredAmericanNavyTaxpayer
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:24pmHow about Gaypiscopal?
Report Post »Altair
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:39amI was an Episcopal altarb/acolyte for years, and used to enjoy the solemnity, dignity and reverence to be found in the church. After I got home from Viet Nam, I found my home church had gone “charismatic.”
People “speaking in tongues,“ new ”street talk” prayer book, church attendees wearing Florida vacation clothing, everything short of shinnying up the tentpole and howling “Praise The Lord” at the moon.
Next, female clergy, and the camel’s nose was under the tent…. next, lesbians and on into the veritable crap referenced in the article. Disgusting. Haven’t been in a church in 30 years. I didn’t leave the church.
It left me, and millions of other real Episcopalians.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:48amIf you once enjoyed worship, I bet you still would. Find another church. The Episcopal church is not your only option.
Report Post »dansk
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 11:58amCount me as one of them. I also was an Acolyte for years and looked forward to the sanctity of every service. After High School I came home from college and they started “acoustic guitar worship” in lieu of the “stuffy and antiquated organ”. At the time I was unaware but something felt wrong. Turns out it was. Very wrong.
Report Post »annie54
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:41pmLook at the Anglican Church of North America. Churches are popping up everywhere. They are, for the most part, Episcopal congregations who broke away. They are what you would recognize from growing up. I am a PK (Preachers Kid) and thank God my father passed away 4 yrs ago – though I am sure he is turning in his grave! The church we joined 2 yrs ago is growing, growing, growing. Families, young couples, a thriving Sunday School – I ask people what brought them and they say they want a Bible based church where they can worship without the social agenda and hear God’s word as intended. Please, consider looking for the true Anglican Church, which is NOT the Episcopal church.
Report Post »prsmith
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 5:01pmI’m a bit before your time but I, too was an acolyte and altar boy. The Episcopal Church made me what I am today and I’ll be eternally grateful to them for that. Unfortunately, they rewrote the Book of Common Prayer and left me groveling in the dust wondering which way was up. I’ve tried numerous churches since leaving and have been totally unsuccessful. The closest I found was the Catholic Church but they have a whole set of ‘issues’ that make them unacceptable and the End Times is going to bring that into sharp and sad focus for millions. So I settle for a creek or a stand of trees or a beautiful vista where I can commune in peace with my Lord and Savior. Maranatha!
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:39amSatan is really having fun with that church, isn’t he? Very sad.
Report Post »REPUB1
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:46amif Its satans church The Why So Many People Leaving???? Heh Gonzo Heh Heh??
Report Post »50211bs
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:53amThey ceased being a Church of God a long time ago.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:56amIf you don’t think Satan is enjoying the destruction of this once great denomination, you’re as foolish as you sound pal.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:18amSo… because Kings claimed a Divine Right… they had the Right to Define Religion (Treaty of Westphalia)… thereby all was Blessed by God… and the undoing is Satanic Evil?
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 10:10amLuke if you don‘t belive this is evil you’re as blind as the other guy.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:34amIn England… the Churches were Designed & Located… to act as Forts/Castles.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:58amThanks Cliff Clavin. Pass the peanuts.
Report Post »Cavallo
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 9:40amIn England today the Anglican church is seeing a lot of conversions from Anglican to Catholic. They are quite a bit under the impression that the Anglican church has abandoned God for Political Correctness, so those looking for spiritual Christian enlightenment are looking elsewhere.
Report Post »Constructionist
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:52pm+1 for obscure ‘Cheers’ reference
Report Post »Taquoshi
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 12:59pmCavallo,
I can’t blame the British Anglicans for converting to Catholicism after the Archbishop of Canterbury appeared dressed in wiccan robes to demonstrate “unity” (or so I have been told) for one of the religious ceremonies. And the outcomes of the last two Lambeth Councils have not been encouraging for those of the traditional faith. Rowan Williams has not exactly been what I would call a sterling example of the “Defender of the Faith”. Supposedly, he will be stepping down as Archbishop this coming December, if there is anything left to step down from. I’ll believe it when I see it. It will also be fascinating to see who is elected/appointed/ordained as the new Archbishop.
Report Post »makamae
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 3:14pm“In England today the Anglican church is seeing a lot of conversions from Anglican to Catholic. They are quite a bit under the impression that the Anglican church has abandoned God for Political Correctness, so those looking for spiritual Christian enlightenment are looking elsewhere.”
Wow – amazing to see people abandon one dead religion for another! Catholicism was the main impediment to the spread of Christianity for hundreds of years. It hasn’t changed much.
“Christian englightenment” isn’t found in either institution – it’s found where the Bible is taught.
Report Post »Conservative-Atheist
Posted on July 15, 2012 at 3:56pm@Gonzo
Thanks Cliff Clavin. Pass the peanuts.
(Now that was freakin funny!! Lmao!)
Report Post »leetpriest
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:34amThe episcopal church has been this way for years…
Report Post »KingCanon
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:33amGive SATAN a toe hold and pretty soon he’ll have a foot hold. And
Report Post »then a leg hold. And then a body hold. So YES, the church will FALL
or completely resign itself to SATAN’S BRIGADE for survival.
kickagrandma
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:31amThis is not a church of GOD, but rather one of satan.
Report Post »Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:31am“These Are the Reasons the Episcopal Church Could Be Near Collapse”
Report Post »——————————————————————————–
And it shold be. That’s what happens when you stray from the true message.
johnjamison
Posted on July 13, 2012 at 8:29amSo a Church that bends the teachings of the bible to the will of the populist is collapsing ….inconcievable
Report Post ».http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=inconceivable&tnr=21&vid=4906682938163216&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D4906682938163216%26id%3D5f9edf0f195e3ad8e35ab1707734a034%26bid%3DKbqU7P6Y7PZ%252bWA%26bn%3DThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.com%252fwatch%253fv%253dZ3sLhnDJJn0&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ3sLhnDJJn0&sigr=11ahol6d8&newfp=1&tit=Princess+Bride+%28+Inconceivable+%5B+Montage+%5D+%29
begreen
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 12:13amRemenber Jesus gave only Peter the keys! Thoes who insist on following their own interpertation making themself Peter will fail to get it right.
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