Episcopal Church: You Know What Global Warming is Kind of Like? It‘s Kind of Like Christ’s Crucifixion
- Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:06pm by
Emily Esfahani Smith
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As Easter approaches, and Christians around the world contemplate the meaning and significance of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, the Episcopal Church has offered up some of its own wisdom on the issue this Lenten season.
The Daily Caller reports:
While Christians worldwide meditate upon the crucifixion of their savior this Good Friday, the Episcopal Church has suggested that the faithful also reflect upon whether they’re doing their part to reduce C02 emissions.
Two of the world’s holiest religious holidays are set to fall on April 22 this year — Good Friday for Christians and Earth Day for environmentalists — and some religious leaders are preparing their flocks to celebrate both.
Apropos of that, the Episcopal Church’s office of Economic and Environmental Affairs issued the following statement:
This year Earth Day falls within Holy Week, specifically on Good Friday, a profound coincidence…To fully honor Earth Day, we need to reclaim the theology that knows Earth is ‘very good,’ is holy. When we fully recognize that, our actions just may begin to create a more sustainable, compassionate economy and way of life….
On Good Friday, the day we mark the crucifixion of Christ, God in the flesh, might we suggest that when Earth is degraded, when species go extinct, that another part of God’s body experiences yet another sort of crucifixion — that another way of seeing and experiencing God is diminished?
Reason 3,405,309 why religion and politics do not mix.
Via Daily Caller.
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Comments (229)
TexasBlaze
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:32pmThat’s it.. I’m done with the Episscopals.
The gospel message is really pretty easy to contemplate, since a simple faith is all that is required. So, time to get back to the old time religion that teaches faith in JC being the road to salvation, and flushing the social justice balderdash to where is belongs. Along with this apostate church.
Goodbye to pomp and junk of the Episscopals, and hello and welcome back to the simplicity/authenticity of the Baptists here in TX.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:41pmI agree on the whole social justice angle as a motive and agenda behind what was being conveyed…………To fully honor Earth Day, we need to reclaim the theology that knows Earth is ‘very good,’ is holy. When we fully recognize that, our actions just may begin to create a more sustainable, compassionate economy and way of life….That was their real motivation for their statement in my opinion. Earth Day was just the spring board for that belief.
Report Post »IMaTELLaU
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:32pmexperiences yet another sort of crucifixion ….
WHAT THA ^&%*%$%$#*&^%*&$#^@%$#$*&%(*^(%&#%$#@%$#^$*&%^, is wrong with those people?????
experiences yet another sort of crucifixion……………..Why are people still in those pews?????
My word for those sheep…………….. RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:31pm@CatB:
I would be doing more than find another church. These leaders of the church have sold out the glory of God for the glory of the World. While maintaining a message of being a steward over the earth for it is entrusted to us by God is one thing, to compare such falacies as the global warming garbage with the death and sacrifice of our Lord Jesus is a travesty of the highest order.
I do not want to be in their shoes come the day of Judgment when all accounts will be balanced.
Report Post »Catharsis
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:30pmOnce again, we witness the endless well of religious bigotry rear it’s ugly face.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:30pmWhile I certainly believe that the Bible would teach we are to be good stewards over creation, to equate global warming (a natural occurrence driven by solar cycles in my opinion) and animal extinction with the profound nature of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is inappropriate and misguided. As God is separate from His creation and “His body” does not suffer another death. That is just plain unbiblical. He stand above and outside of creation. Species go extinct all the time and death is a result of man’s sin in my opinion. God will destroy the Earth in a manner of speaking………..
2Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
This is a little to close to worship of the creation than the Creator in my opinion and leaves me saddened that this would be their focus at a time when Jesus and His sacrifice should be exalted above all else (as it should be every day).
Report Post »Revere1
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:30pmWell they’re right about one thing, global warming is a religion: http://www.battlefield315.com/2011/02/global-warming-panic-explained.html
Report Post »FL VINCE
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:29pmI go to church to hear the GOSPEL, not a sermon from the EPA
Report Post »NickDeringer
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:29pmNo. Global Warming is a scam for the religiously confused who need to feel holy without interfering with their sex lives.
Report Post »hersey10
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:29pmThat comparison “is kind of like” me comparing Obama to Reagan .
Report Post »DilloTank
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 5:45pmLOL!!!!!
Obama is the Anti-Reagan!
Report Post »Joseff
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:27pmWho will join me this year in my annual celebration of Earth Day, wherein I burn a styrofoam cup in the parking lot behind work, followed by a brief (about 5 seconds) moment of silence and reflection. So far I have convinced my boss and 2 coworkers to join me in this 8 year tradition. C’mon folks, make a stand for the good ol’ earth!
Joe
Report Post »Rational Man
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:44pmHow many carbon credits do you lose for burning styrofoam cups?
Report Post »Lenice
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:55pmIt is so obvious what the left is doing. I don’t understand how anyone is still duped. This Mother Earth crap is just that. The earth is not a mother, father, sister or brother. The earth does not have a moral compass. It is a planet! I am dumbfounded at how so many are still following along. This is the greater concern not the fraud who is leading them.
Report Post »DevotedDad
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:25pmWhile the environmentalists are utterly silent concerning the largest radiation spill in the history of mankind, as well as the devastation that it will have upon wildlife for thousands of years, they want us to believe that carbon emission truly concerns them.
These people love the Earth soooooo much, that they have nothing to say about the massive cover up and the devastation that is happening right now to the planet.
But hey, why focus on the current threat when you can focus on a make believe one?
Report Post »Non-sequitur
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:44pm“While the environmentalists are utterly silent concerning the largest radiation spill in the history of mankind, as well as the devastation that it will have upon wildlife for thousands of years, they want us to believe that carbon emission truly concerns them.”
People are protesting against atomic power all over the world, Germany might even abandon it totally because of this happening. Also, the difference here is that there is nothing more that could be done about the spill. It’s not like the Japanese is ignoring it.
So I don’t see your point, really.
Report Post »Non-sequitur
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:51pmIt should be “the Japanese GOVERNMENT is…”
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:25pmIn my case, I would be calling down God’s own thunder upon them. To compare the sacrifice of the Lord to the cause and effect of Global Warming Lying and Thievery is immoral to the ultimate degree.
Report Post »JRserious
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:25pmThe episcopal church has obviously, like the catholic church, been infiltrated by the demonically possessed. according to one of the chief excorsists of the catholic church, there are many demonically possessed staff members in high places in the catholic church. some of these episcopal church staffers may not be possessed, merely non-believers and lost folks that simply don’t understand that their job was supposed to be held by a Christian.
Report Post »momsense
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:24pmWe no longer have an Episcopal Church in this country. They deny their Anglo heritage, because they wouldn”t want to offend anyone, and interpret the Christian Gospel according to Karl Marx.They’re no longer are Episcopalians— they;re Marx ipalians.
Report Post »DilloTank
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 5:48pmWow,
Report Post »“Wolves in sheep’s clothing”, and ravenous wolves at that.
Avidmonkey
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:22pmTo some, the earth is a god. Something to be worshiped.
Report Post »In the end, people will cry out to the rocks to crush them rather than turn to the true God. (Rev. 6:16).
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:35pmI agree it is the god of the environmental movement. They have a belief they act on that belief they have leads them to seek a certain salvation and the object of their devotion is this world and the creation as a whole. They even attempt to proselytize. Good post!!!
Report Post »momsense
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:21pmWe no longer have an Episcopal church in this country—they’re now Marxipalians. Understand why thousands no longer attend?
Report Post »dirtypolitics
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:21pmYou mean Obama and the Democrats has also infiltrated the Episcopal church?
Pelle sub agnina latitat mens saepe lupina (Under a sheep’s skin often hides a wolfish mind).
The phrase originates in a sermon by Jesus recorded in the Christian. Bible:Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves (Gospel of Matthew, 7:15 – King James Version). The sermon then suggests that their true nature will be revealed by their actions (by their fruits shall ye know them, verse 16)…from Wikipedia
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:01pmThe Episcopal Church used to be known as the Republican Party at Prayer. Now it is more like the Democratic Party at Prayer, except the “prayer” part doesn’t really makes sense anymore.
Report Post »JGraham III
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:59pmWhy Granny! Yer nuthin’ but a wolf in cheap clothing!
Report Post »The gospel according to Bugs Bunny….
The Catbird
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:20pmThis is drabble is emblematic of the heresies that sent faithful believers in The Episcopal Church flying for the doors. There is no leftist cause that they won’t promote, no baby that they won’t fight to see aborted, or no Judeo-Christian tradition that they won’t mock or tread under foot.
This is the reason that the Episcopal Church is dying and a new and faithful expression of Historic Anglicanism is rising in her place.
Report Post »BrerRabbit
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:19pmOnce a Southern Baptist, then an Episcopalian, now……I go fishing. 8>)
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:11pmThis made me lol. :)
Report Post »Vixvenom
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:41pmI was a Southern Baptist, then an Episcopalian, now I fish around looking for a church with no politics that teaches the bible…any suggestions would be appreciated…..
Report Post »Gates
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:55pmVixvenom
PCA Presbyterian (not US or USA)
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:56pmIf you are sincere, pray for the guidance God gives. Do not reject who he sends your way.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:00pmMy comment above is for Vixvenom
Report Post »Vixvenom
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:04pmThanks guys….I have been wrestling so much since I found out that my church was pro-choice…why didn’t I know? I honestly didn’t know it was possible for a church to be pro abortion…looked at Methodist, Lutheran, …them too. All belong to the WCC…if you don’t know about that one, look into it…UN church sanctioning body basically….pure evil.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:06pmVixvenom,
Report Post »It really depends upon why you left the Baptists and what you found attractive in the Episcopal Church. Growing up Baptist you might not be able to accept the idea of swiming the Tiber or the Bosporus, but you might find Lutherans or Presbyterians more acceptable. But beware, this desease is infecting all branches of Protestantism.
tbb
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 12:52am@Vix This is probably not going to be popular and it may be too late. Have you checked out The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? They are not pro-choice they do not talk any politics and teach only the words of Christ.
Report Post »BetterDays
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:18pmOne of Jezabels daughters speaks.
Read Revelations 11: 13-18, we (America) are they beast out of the Earth. We came in to being precisely 1360 years ( prophecy in Daniel) after the order was given that allowed the Jews to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
Earth in scripture refers to unpopulated or unknow lands in prophecy
Two horns like a lamb, Freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
Lion, will act as if it were satanic in origin.
Will cause the whole world to follow after the first beast. We set up kings and remove them just like the first beast. We force our will upon nations just like the first beast.
Mark, is a sign of agreement or compliance. Best way to avoid whatever that will be, be a servant of Jesus Christ.
COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE !!!!!
Report Post »BetterDays
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:36pmCorrection to my post:
Report Post »1260 years , time, times and half a time equals 1260 days (jewish callander is 360 days) or 1260 prophetic years, a year is a day a day is a year.
Blacktooth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:36pmWhat???????
I have to say your comment made absolutely no sense at all.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:05pm@ BLACK……….BETTER believes in pre-tribulation eschatology I believe and gave a quick synopsis of that belief. No disrespect to either BEAR or BETTER…..Just clarifying the statement. If I am wrong then ignore me BETTER.
Report Post »six6six
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:32pmYou should try to stay away from coffee!
Report Post »BetterDays
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:43pmIndeed, the coffee got the better of days, I ment Revelations 13:11-18, I apologize.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:50pmBetter,
:-)
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:40pmWell, it looks like my use of, and quoting Revelations 11:13-18, and the displaying of God’s Name is not acceptable to someone. It is no longer viewable here in this string. It was removed.
Report Post »Old Truckers
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 7:12pmBlacktooth.
This will not be the first time the removal of God’s name occurred.
Just look at a old King James Version of Psalms 83:18 and compare that with a new version of the King James Bible. Guess what? God’s name is removed from that verse.
I wonder how our Creator considers the disrespect?
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:18pmHuh?
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:16pmI don’t remember reading anywhere in the BIBLE that the earth is “holy”. It is GOD’s creation, so that alone kicks it right on up there with precious things, designs, colors, etc. And, because HE made it, I guess it is “holy”. But to be worshiped? NO WAY!
Our GOD is a jealous god and HE wants no other gods before HIM~~~ and that includes HIS creations.
I think, as usual, the left has been smoking far too much wacky tabacky or indulging their drug habits to the max. The Episcopal “church” ceased being a Church when it endorsed homosexuality which GOD says is an abomination to HIM.
*sigh*
Report Post »ZaphodsPlanet
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 9:32pmI am not the most well educated Christian, but I’m trying to read through the old and new testaments to learn more and more. Isn’t worshiping the earth kind of like…. making a donkey out of gold and bowing down to it? False Idols? And I swear, whatever god really is, he’s just got to be itching to turn on the ice age switch every time these people pull this crap.
And it’s funny, everything we have is “of the earth”….. we come from it and unfortunately our bodies return to it at some point. I’m not talking about crashing an oil tanker or a nuke plant with a crack in it…. but these morons see anything and everything concerning the earth.. as being “holy”….. usually much more holy than life itself. It is the God of Liberals…. and so screwed up.
NO matter how they try to change the name (global warming, climate change)…. for this and for whatever idiot cause they deem important. They just recycle the same mental garbage over and over and over again. They are broken records incapable of using one of the big gifts God gave us….
A FREAKING BRAIN!
Report Post »I.Gaspar
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:14pmIsn’t Bill Maher a closet Episcopalian?
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:41pmBill Maher had a Jewish mother and perhaps an Episcopalian father. Obviously neither one of them had any sincere faith.
The only “closet” Episcopalians in this day would be faithful ones too embarrassed to mention that they belong to a church riddled with such apostacy, immorality and silliness.
Report Post »walkwithme1966
Posted on April 9, 2011 at 4:06amBill Maher is am agnostic!!
Report Post »CatB
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:13pmI would be finding another church!
Report Post »MidwestConservativeCoalition
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 4:09pmIt’s stuff like this that makes religion seem silly to those on the left…and frankly puts a bad spin on it in my eyes as well. I belive in God…very much…religion…it’s tough sometimes, lol. I guess I’d just like to keep my Sunday service out of the voting booth…and away from my big horkin’ pickup as well.
Report Post »gramma b
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:13pmThese people probably are more convinced of the reality of global warming than they are of the reality of Christ.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:36pmInappropriate quote of the day: “Reason 3,405,309 why religion and politics do not mix.“ The statement should read ”…..why politics and science don’t mix.” Global warming isn’t a political issue, although people seem to think it is. It’s an issue of science.
Jeremiah 2:7 – I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and defiled my land and made my inheritance detestable. (NIV)
Gates
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:42pmI grew up in the Episcopal church and can tell you first hand it is not founded in the Word. Mostly it is a social group that goes to church as a matter of “form”. The Episcopal denomination is totally universally oriented and teachs a multitude of false doctrines. For the most part they teach against hell and promote salvation for all regardless of a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
It is a popular place to be for the elites looking for “easy believism”. Once I found Jesus Christ I was totally amazed at the difference between Episcopal teachings and a relationship with my Savior.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:44pm@ JZS….hello friend!!! I would simply point out that the verse you quoted means that the land was defiled because of Idolatry not global warming. It was totally a comment on the spiritual defilement not physical by God’s people.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:45pm@ JZS……….I would also say that every issue of importance becomes a political issue including science.
Report Post »Marylou7
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:49pmWhat you are failing to understand is that environmentalism is a religion in itself and has nothing to do with the God of Christians or Jews.
Report Post »Awakened One
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:50pmI give thanks that I no longer need some religious authority to tell me what my relationship with God is. Consider, if these people are so monumentally ignorant of the man made global warming hoax, how can they be trusted as an authority on God? There is of course the possibility that they are not ignorant but elitist, thinking that promoting a lie is justifiable for an agenda the unwashed masses can’t comprehend.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:52pmJZS says … Jeremiah 2:7 – I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and defiled my land and made my inheritance detestable.
The problem JZS is that the land itself was not defiled in the sense that you seem to think. It was defiled not by damaging the physical nature of the land, but by damaging the spiritual nature of the people living in that particular area. The land itself was no more defiled than when the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. The land, no doubt, came through just fine. In the same way that a forrest fire kills the trees but the land ends up being even more fruitful thereafter.
As always, JZS, you see things in such a simplistic manner, ignoring the meatier matters of issues and coming to some rather dumb conclusions.
Awakened One
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 5:57pmJZS, you are completely mistaken if you think man-made global warming isn’t political. It’s entirely political. The whole point is to redistribute wealth to special interests and despots and gain political power for Marxist agendas. Why do you think they work overtime to silence descent. Any honest debate debunks their claims. The science at best is mixed, at worst it’s outright fraud.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:19pmIf Global Warming wasn’t a political issue why are politicians always talking about it and drawing up laws and regulations based upon it?
Report Post »avenger
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 6:27pmhey christian ministers ..stick to soul saving and butt out of saving the earth ! earth has been fine without you for billions of years and will continue to be so.human stupidity and arrogance is simply amazing… http://climatechangedispatch.com
Report Post »rodamaa
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 7:11pmJesus already died for us on the cross. You do not need to crucify us again. Take your communist garbage and stick it where the sun does not shine.
Report Post »Patriot Z
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 7:34pmactually the left loves churches like this spreading their eco crap. its a wel documented manuver. this has nothing to do with the planet..never has its about power. and what better way to convice the people then having your church or pastor tell you.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 8:02pmPosted on April 7, 2011 at 4:09pm
It’s stuff like this that makes religion seem silly to those on the left…
—-
I’m pretty sure that those on the left are the ones who are orchestrating this. Remember Nancy Pelosi telling Catholic Priests that they needed to tell their flocks that immigration reform is a “Manifestation of Our Living the Gospels”?
Report Post »goatkid
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 8:32pmHeresy at work.
Report Post »VanGrungy
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 8:36pmIt’s the Faith virus..
http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/turning.point.html
1. Promoting the development of curricula for moral education in schools
We advocate a universal campaign to promote moral development. Simply put, this campaign should encourage and assist local initiatives all over the world to incorporate a moral dimension into the education of children. It may necessitate the holding of conferences, the publication of relevant materials and many other supportive activities, all of which represent a solid investment in a future generation.
This campaign for moral development may begin with a few simple precepts. For example, rectitude of conduct, trustworthiness, and honesty are the foundation for stability and progress; altruism should guide all human endeavor, such that sincerity and respect for the rights of others become an integral part of every individual’s actions; service to humanity is the true source of happiness, honor and meaning in life.
We also believe the campaign will be successful only to the extent that the force of religion is relied upon in the effort. The doctrine of the separation of church and state should not be used as a shield to block this salutary influence. Specifically, religious communities will have to be drawn in as collaborative partners in this important initiative.
As it proceeds, this campaign will accelerate a process of individual empowerment that will transform the way in which people, regardless of economic class, social standing, or ethnic, racial or religious background, interact with their society.
======
Green Religion…
read it all and know what’s coming..
Report Post »nothingbuthetruth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 8:50pmThe Epsicopal church is nothing more than the New age Religion. Look it up. The earth is God. Research Margaret Mead. She wrote articles for the church. She was huge into population control, anti man and is partly responsible for the global warming scare in order to change our habits. She has since died, but the left adores her, gave her a stamp and she was close friends with jimmy Carter. Do your homeowrk
Report Post »nothingbuthetruth
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 9:03pmApril 22 is Lenin’s birthday. The left in this country made sure that the environmental movement was a tribute to their comrad. The left sure likes thier anniversaries and their signs and symbols.
Report Post »Ubermoose
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 9:27pm1. CO2 is not a driver of climate.
2. The Episcopal Church is lost.
http://www.climatedepot.com/
Report Post »NancyBee
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 9:54pmWhat an abomination to compare global warming to Christ’s crucifixion!
Report Post »Eleutheria
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 9:55pmI guess these fools don‘t realize that Earth Day is a Leninist commemoration that actually falls on Vladimir Ilyitch Lenin’s birthday.
Green is the new red.
Report Post »restorehope
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 11:51pmHow sacriligious to call earth day a ‘holy day’ just like Good Friday. It minimalizes a day that millions of Christians around the globe recognize as a day of great significance in their religious lives. How can a Christian church can give equal standing to a movement that is making a lot of money for people like Al Gore and others all in the name of ‘saving the planet’? Episcopalians should stick to saving souls, not the ozone.
Report Post »foobear
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 3:24amEarth Day is the big religious holiday for stupid hippies.
Claiming that global warming is equivalent to the crucifixion is stupid.
Claiming that the earth isn’t warming is also stupid.
See! Plenty of stupidity to go around, though hippies always take the cake.
Report Post »dr_funk
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 5:11amIts just the next step to becoming as unitarian as possible…they have to embrace the world’s newest religion: Man-made Global Warming.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 10:01amHey watchtheotherhand! You caught me being a troll. I’m not always, but I googled and found a Christian website that supported environmentalism and took the quote from there. And yes, read several things about how this quote was metaphorical and said “defiling the land” meant disobeying God’s law of the land, not despoiling the land, as in “soil”. God, evidently, never took a Biblical position as far as despoiling the land proper, although it seems to me He wouldn’t be in favor of it.
But it made me think, especially after reading Psalms 137:9 – Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones. I read the explanations about how that doesn’t literally mean Christians should take joy in brutally killing children of enemies. Basically the explanations I heard was that the passage was metaphorical or idiomatic.
But here’s my point. Once you start the start saying the Bible is not literal, and has to be interpreted, that’s a big can of worms. So what do you think? Is the Bible the literal word of God, or is sometimes idiomatic or metaphorical? If the latter, is the Koran also open to interpretation?
Report Post »Mike Westfall No Hiding
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 10:11amCheck this website out…
http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com
Very interesting website exposing the global agenda and how land and people will be managed.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 11:21am” Is the Bible the literal word of God, or is sometimes idiomatic or metaphorical? If the latter, is the Koran also open to interpretation?”
Interpretation of sacred tetxs involves both an understanding of the the original human message and its intended application by God. Context is very important. “Literal” does not exclude idiomatic or metaphorical. All human language is based upon metaphor, since we describe new things by reference to their similarity to things we already know.
To understand the meaning of the passage fro psalms and how it might compare to a Koranic passage one must first indentify the grammatical nature of the language being used. Is it indicative or imperative? Is it describing soemthing or offering a prescription? The Psalm is clearly describing a reality while a Koranic verse saying “And slay them wherever ye find them” is clearly a command.
The psalmist is saying he is happy when his enemies’ children are killed. that is not a command to kill, but it does invite the question whether the killing is approved by the text. The best way to answer that question is the historical context of idea expressed and its historical interpretation. Since slaughtering of the children of the conquered was not seen as in any way extreme or barbaric at the time this psalmist could be seen as merely giving expression to a desire to see his enemies defeated. The particular manner in which that defeat is manifested is not important. This interpretation can be verified by looking at later historical interpretations of the text. Has this text ever been used by the faithful to encourage or justify acts of vengenace, and specifically acts of vengeance against children? More pointedly, HOW has this passge actually been interpreted?
When we come to the Koran we are dealing with a command. the first question we should ask is, is this command historically indexed? Is it a command at and for a particular moment, as God’s command to wipe out the Canaanites was? The nature of the Koran shows no historical limitation to the application of this command. the next question is HOW has that command been interpreted historically. The answer is fairly obvious.
Report Post »TheGreyPiper
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 12:25pmThe Episcopal Church IS the Left…
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 1:33pmJZS, yes, there are death penalties declared in the Old Testament, based upon what is commonly known as the Law of Moses. This law is known as a lesser law, meant as a precursor to a more complete law, filled with more Godly understanding. Christ, as you may or may not recall, condemned many aspects of the law of Moses. When Christ was approached by a group of traditional Jews, that had caught a woman in adultery, he answered the issue how? According to the law of Moses she was to be stoned to death. According to Christ, and the higher law, he stated, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. So obviously something better and more complete had come along with Christ, that being a spiritual being, being sinless himself. And being sinless, did Christ sin for not full-filling the law of Moses? I say no. Instead, he understood that the law of Moses was allowed for a weaker generation. With the intent of being replaced with a more complete law later.
Of course, all of this is moot since your goal is to denigrate the Christian religion so you foolishly dig deep into the old testament, you being totally oblivious to the fact that the old testament law was fulfilled with a deeper spiritual law, introduced by Christ.
You are a troll with the heart of a troll and the mind of a troll and the low intellect of a troll.
Report Post »RJO
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 2:13pmHmmmm…the Episcopal Church was formed for what reason and by who? And there have been splits from Episcopal/Anglicans to other splits to other splits to other splits to…………thousands of fractures in the Christian faith.
The “product” is not becoming “refined” with the thousands of schisms….its becoming diluted, to the point where this kind of stuff (including the “Ain’t No Hell“ ”Reverend”) leads to one thing and one thing that has been a goal for thousands of years………….DIVIDE and CONQUER!
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 2:28pmJZS,
My “expertise” in the Koran is merely that of one who has studied hermeneutics for 14 years, can read a text and study the history of its application. These are not hard things to come by evenin an informal way.
As to the mandatory status of the death penalty for breaking the sabbath laws and others, you are right that it most certainly is a commannd, and one from God. I would only add to what Kmichaels has said that the one who issues the command in the foirst place can revoke it later. Each biblical passage, and each divine command found within them, are to be seen within the comntext of the entirety of of divine revelation. This, actually is particularly relevant when it comes to a comparison with the Koran. A religion with a historical revelation, like Judaism and Christianity and Islam, will naturally allow for early commands and revelations to be superceeded or enlarged by later ones. The more violent and legalistic apsects of the early OT give way to greater emphasis on Grace and forgiveness. This is natural if the revelation is progressive as a function of its historical nature. God, in educating his people allows for the lessosn to deeper the more they advance in knowledge of him.
When it comes to Islam the early peaceful passages of the Koran are understood to apply to Muhammad’s ear;ly ministry, while the more violent prone ones are part of the later part, after he returned from Medina. These later parts are seen as trumping the early ones. They reflect Muhammad’s decision that a solely peaceful approach was arong.
Thus we see in the Bible and in the Koran two opposite directions of moral progression.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 3:47pm@ JZS…..Hello again friend I hope you saw my response to your fist question back a few pages as that is where I saw it posted first. Just to give my understanding to your question about the OT giving commands to be put to death for some things. I will come from a different perspective than KMICHAELS as we differ in our theology. You are most definitely right that those things were commanded and they are serious and difficult but to understand their true intent and meaning was to display the seriousness of sin against a holy God. That the penalty for sin is death as scripture says that it is the wages for sin. There was mercy in the OT as well, just look at King David and his sins (adultery and murder) they were deserving of the penalties you spoke of, however, God did not have him killed. His son would be taken from him at birth but this was a picture image that God himself would pay for Davids sin by sending his own son to die. I would say that Jesus didn’t condemn the law of Moses but rather came to fulfill it. He knew when he let the woman go caught in adultery that the penalty would be paid for, but not by her but rather by Him on the cross. That was the penalty for those sins and Jesus paid that harsh penalty by dying for them. That is why if you trust in Him and His love by dying for you, you may have eternal life because those penalties you described which every sin deserves the penalty of death are all paid in full by God Himself through the son Jesus. That is the mercy and awesomeness of God’s love toward us not harshness of the law. But rather a holy God who must not excuse sin and rebellion unless he cease to become evil Himself, yet His love for us compels Him to be with us and see us live. The solution to become like us live sinless and then die my death and anyone else death that chooses to believe in Him. This way His justice remains complete and His mercy and love shine through !!!!!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 3:53pm……….unless he cease to be a holy God and become evil himself…………..sorry slow brain again.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 4:04pm@ JZS…….This was my first post to your original question… :-)
@ JZS…………Hey friend I just got this this morning. I appreciate your honesty!!! It is a testament to your character and I always enjoy our engagements of ideas. I would say that I have study the Bible for many years (not that it necessarily means anything per se but just so you know I am not totally ignorant of it or how to study it properly) and I would say that it is both literal and figurative or metaphorical. The Bible in many instances does a very good job of interpreting itself in many instances. Take for example Jesus taught many things in parables and later the disciples would ask Him what they meant and he would explain the imagery. From this we can get a pretty good idea of what figurative language means and how we should interpret those things. I would say however, those things I think most people would consider essential to salvation are clearly explained and plain in their communication. There are some literary rules for interpretation some of which are exegesis, arching, contextual integrity, cultural meanings and scripture interpreting scripture. Some things can have both a literal and figurative meaning at the same time. Take for instances David and Goliath. It is typically understood by the Bible to be an historic account, but it also has a figurative meaning of Jesus battling the Evil one. David looked weak in comparison to the giant Goliath (the intimidating warrior). Yet David wearing no protective armor prevailed with a rock to the head. Jesus likewise looked weak as he hung on a cross yet it was in this “apparant” weakness the he gained the victory and fulfilled the first prophecy of Christ in Genesis 3 when God said that the “Seed” of the woman (Jesus) would crush the head of the serpent.
As for the Qu’ran. Although many will interpret it differently at different points the literary style and content is less figurative in nature. It is mainly a literal work as is all but stated by Muhammad himself. It does not typically engage in figurative language in the manner and to the degree with which the Bible does and so we must apply the rules of interpretation rightly to all written books, texts, and ideas. The Qu‘ran you must understand is deemed hard or difficult to understand by Muslims and so they also hold sacred other works that are meant to help understand the Qu’ran such as the Hadith which is meant to supplement and help interpret the Qu’ran. So if we do attempt to interpret certain things in the Qu’ran as figurative there must be within the text itself, as is the case in the Bible, indications and patterns that illustrate what things can be seen as figurative and once seen how they can be understood and this is the main area that is lacking in the Qu’ran (In my opinion after having studied it albeit not to the same degree or intensity as the Bible). Thank you for your very good and honest questions friend. God Bless
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 4:19pm“ISLE, you claim that the Koran, properly understood, teaches that all true Muslims believe in violence. ”
Well, that bis not EXACTLY what I claimed. I claimed that the common interpretation of it is that it commands violence. it is not for me to say whether that is the “proper” understanding or not. Whether a particular imam nearby agrees with that interpretation is one thing. But I can testify that there are many on record who have voiced exactly that. These are not the imams that get press in the mainstream media, and many imams play into the desire of liberals to think Islam is generally peaceful. Radical imams and radical mosques are really not very rare. They become less rare the more afraid westerners are in confronting them.
As to whthere literal and idiomatic are really antonyms, I suppose that is also a matter of interpretation. Literal means “according to the letter”, according to the actual words. What those actual words signify in any given instance is another thing. When Christ said that he is the door, I take that literally, because to me a ‘door’ signifies both a concrete portal way, maybe made of wood, or it can mean a means of entry. Literal in this context means “natural”, the way the words would mean to anyone familiar with the language and given the context of the text. Interpretation according to the literal sense will take account of all figures of speech and literary forms found in the text.
But if you don’t like that expansive use of the term literal that is fine. I stand with a professor of mine who said that he took literally those texts that were literal, poetically those texts that were poetic, metaphorically those texts that were metaphorcal, prophetically those texts that were prophetic, et cet. Whatever one calls the nature of our interpretation of the text we hold that each text has one central meaning that is not a matter of subjective interpretation nor requires special prophetic knowledge.
Report Post »superbyelich
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 9:20pmI agree with GrammaB
Report Post »jzs
Posted on April 9, 2011 at 12:27amWATCHTHEOTHERHAND, thanks for your expansive response! I actually saved it for further reading. But reading through your response it seems internally consistent and consistent with what the little I know about the Bible. It’s also consistent with my own internal beliefs and values, most of which are taken from my understanding of the teachings of Christ.
Frankly, I’m dismiss a lot of the “sins against God” such as working on Sunday, not eating shellfish or whatever as absurd as Biblical injunctions, although perhaps those restrictions had a practical meaning at the time they were written. Working 7 days a week is not good for the average human then or now, and maybe shellfish in that era were making people sick for whatever reason. But it’s hard for me to imagine God actually commanding “don’t eat shellfish” unless there was some practical reason for that prohibition – as opposed to some capricious whim of God.
So in any case thanks for your response! I am moved to give a provocative opinion based on my view of religion.
I don’t think God gives any points to people who behave as Christ taught because they are afraid of going to Hell. I also don‘t think God gives any points to those who follow Christ’s words because they hope that by doing so they’ll go to Heaven. Nor do I think you get a single point for proclaiming that Christ as your Savior.
In my opinion, any action based on the hope for the reward of life after death in Heaven, or the fear of Hell, or simply proclaiming your love of Christ, means nothing.
I think God would favor the good works of an atheist, who was simply trying to “do the right thing” for his or her fellow human being without hope of reward, over someone who is motivated only out of fear or hope of what will happen in the afterlife. The teachings of Christ are self-evident in my opinion, and are worth following because they promote the welfare of humanity. They stand on their own in my opinion, whether there is a God or not.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on April 9, 2011 at 2:22amIslesfordian, I like the quote from your professor that he, “took literally those texts that were literal, poetically those texts that were poetic, metaphorically those texts that were metaphorical, prophetically those texts that were prophetic.” And I appreciate your response.
But I have to quibble about your use of the word “literal.” This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of the dictionary meaning (any dictionary) of the word. Christ is not literally a door. A door, literally, is a rectangular piece of wood that separates one space (usually enclosed) from another. When you say “Christ is a door” meaning that through Christ you have access to another place that’s fine, but that’s a metaphor. A door is, literally, is a piece of wood. Christ is not a rectangular piece of wood. When you start using the word “door” in the abstract to represent a function, rather than the object itself, then you departed from literal into the metaphorical.
Not being picky but the word “literal” is is important when you’re talking about Biblical matters among others. Saying Christ is “literally at door” is a misuse of the English language (not that I care about that) but it confuses the conversation. Some statements are literal some metaphorical, and when those words, and others like them lose meaning, then intelligent conversation fails.
Report Post »walkwithme1966
Posted on April 9, 2011 at 4:03amNo, actually it does not make religion seem silly to those on the left. This is my church and I understand it completely. My quesion for MidwestConverative Coaliton – do you automatically assume that all those on the left had no religion and we all think religion is stupid? That is painting a sweeping generalization with a very broad brush – it is obvious that you do not know any people on the left!
Report Post »http://maboulette.wordpress.com
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 9, 2011 at 11:37am@ JZS…….Hey my friend I am going to respond to this but with it being an older story I don’t know if you will get it, but oh well. Sorry for the expanse (ha ha) I don’t know when to shut up :-). I certainly understand your question of some of the OT requirements that are not so much practiced today. I would just say remember that many of those were ceremonial laws that reflected aspects of their spiritual counterparts. Take ceremonial washing for instance, it reflected the cleansing of your conscience by confession and cleaning in faith by the blood of Jesus. When the reality of those metaphors were realized in Jesus they became obsolete. They were literal laws then, and a foreshadow of the realities in Jesus. Those ceremonial laws possessed a picture image of the greater reality that was eventually realized in the person of Jesus. That is why dietary laws were done away with as well. Now the laws which governed actual morality…murder, lying, stealing etc etc still are practiced for I think obvious reasons.
I understand where your coming from about the motive for doing loving deeds and I really do hear you. I would just say that I do not rely on deeds in any capacity for acceptance by God, but rather I trust in the Good Deed of Christ on the cross and it is from the love and mercy I received there that gratitude, love and humility give birth to loving and caring for others and thereby demonstrate my sincere love of God by being obedient to Him. If you look at Matt 25 (sheep and goats) Jesus points to works done by both groups and the one doesn’t even realize they have done them, while the other group proclaims them. I believe this demonstrates not that salvation is earned by works but that the first group was not trusting in those things and Jesus said that when they did those things they were proving their love of Him and faith in Him genuine and the reason for doing those things in the first place. The other group however, trusted in what they had done. They did not do it for the love of others or Jesus per se and so He says to depart form Him. So in that vain I do not so much disagree with your thinking about what our motives should be.
With regard to what you stated about atheists I would say I would have to disagree because they failed to do the greatest “work” of all according to Jesus. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. The rest of our “good” deeds being filthy rags to a holy God, because even our best attempts at “good” deeds are mixed with impure motives many times. I would say however, that I believe God would rather have some one hot or cold, but not in the lukewarm middle. I would say that the teachings of Christ promote the welfare of humanity in so far as they teach righteousness and love above everything else. And if someone is first motivated by fear of consequences as I was initially, then so be it. But after you taste the goodness and mercy of God it is quickly turned into devotion and love born out of shear humility and gratitude for receiving freely that which you know you do not deserve. Thank you for your sincerity and honesty in our discussions I find it very refreshing and encouraging. Take care friend.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on April 10, 2011 at 1:03amThanks for your post OTHERHAND. You are obviously a good man, and I appreciate the explanation of your beliefs. Take care.
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