Famed ‘Brownsville Revival’ Church Is on the Edge of Financial Ruin
- Posted on March 30, 2012 at 7:54am by
Billy Hallowell
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PENSACOLA, Fla. (The Blaze/AP) — For years starting in the mid-1990s, millions from around the globe visited a humble church in Florida’s Panhandle for lively Pentecostal revival services where believers flocked on stage to be healed by God for cancer, addiction and broken hearts.
At its height, the “Brownsville Revival” drew as many as 5,500 people a night for six years — estimates put the total between 2.5 million and 4.5 million people. Donations poured in as the Brownsville Assembly of God added staff, built a massive new sanctuary and opened a school for preachers.
In the decade after being the home of the largest Pentecostal outpouring in U.S. history, the church has been on the edge of financial ruin. It racked up $11.5 million in debt, to be paid after the out-of-town throngs and its former pastor moved on.
In this March 25, 2012, photo, Brownsville Assembly senior pastor Rev. Evon Horton preaches to his congregation in Pensacola, Fla. The church that was home to the largest Pentecostal outpouring in U.S. history is on the edge of financial ruin. (AP Photo/John David Mercer)
The red ink is mostly unknown outside the congregation.
“Every Monday I find out what the (Sunday) offering was and we decide what we can pay this week,” said the Rev. Evon Horton, Brownsville’s current pastor. “The good news is last week we paid our mortgage. The bad news is it drained our bank accounts.”
The paid staff is down to six from around 50, and the newsletter is printed monthly instead of weekly. About 800 to 1,000 worshippers total attend two Sunday services, but most pews go empty in the 2,200-seat sanctuary. Another 2,600-seat sanctuary built just for the revival is used for a gym, community classes and storage. The church has trimmed millions off its debt by selling property and slashing expenses, and it’s raising money to pay off the remaining $6.5 million.
Horton said it’s a wonder – a blessing from God, really – that the church has survived so long.
“It‘s the hardest thing I’ve ever dealt with in 30 years of ministry,” he said.
Almost three years after the revival trickled down to its last nightly service in 2001, the longtime former pastor, the Rev. John Kilpatrick, moved on. He now runs a bustling church and traveling revival ministry based across the state line in Daphne, Ala.
Kilpatrick said Brownsville was never the wealthy church many assumed during the revival years, so loans were the only way to pay for growth. He said the church fell deeper into debt after he departed and membership dropped.
“I resigned (from) the church, and I never would have left if I knew the struggles it was going to have,” he said.
A lot has changed since the revival‘s beginning on Father’s Day 1995. Ken Griffin, who first came to the church 36 years ago as a surfer and is now a board member, still marvels at what happened that day. Kilpatrick brought in visiting evangelist Steve Hill and something stirred.
“He just asked a simple question, like `If anyone really wants to get refreshed and get closer to God, then come up to the altar,’” Griffin said. “As he started praying for people, all kinds of things started happening. … People were falling out and people were just getting ministered to, and the next thing we know it‘s 4 o’clock in the afternoon.”
Word spread of people being miraculously healed and converted, and revival services were soon held four and five nights a week. People waited in long lines to get inside the church, located in one of the poorest neighborhoods in Pensacola, a Gulf Coast city known for training naval aviators.
Below, watch old footage from the revival days:
The church began buying up nearby houses and razing them for parking, Horton said. It took in millions in donations and revenue from items like music CDs, but the church used mortgages to expand rather than cash.
“You’d think that money was just flowing into the place,” Kilpatrick said. “But it wasn’t.”
The Pensacola News-Journal raised questions at the time about the revival’s finances and claims of miraculous healings, but the crowds kept coming.
Horton said he’s still unsure what happened to all the money, but he’s concentrating on the future. “What good would it do me?” he asked.
In this March 25, 2012, photo, Brownsville Assembly senior pastor Rev. Evon Horton talks about the financial situation his church now face in Pensacola, Fla. The church that was home to the largest Pentecostal outpouring in U.S. history is on the edge of financial ruin. (John David Mercer / AP)
Kilpatrick said he doesn’t recall the financial details, but he‘s saddened by his old church’s struggles.
“Many times when a pastor leaves churches begin to get into a struggle,” he said. “That’s what happened at Brownsville. I just hate for them that it happened.”
Kilpatrick went on to found the Church of His Presence in Daphne, about 50 west of Pensacola. In 2010, he began the “Bay Revival” with another traveling evangelist, Nathan Morris.
Records from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability show John Kilpatrick Ministries is a subsidiary of Partners in Revival Ministries, which he founded in 1996 during the Brownsville Revival. The organization listed net assets of $1.4 million in 2010, but it ran a $40,000 deficit that year, with revenues of $941,588 and expenses of $981,588.
Kilpatrick is trying to grow his current ministry. In a February talk posted on his church’s website, Kilpatrick asked for extra money to pay a $9,000 deficit from a recent revival in Orlando; to purchase a second TV production truck for $250,000; and to help the church pay its bills. He also lamented the cost of maintaining two homes near the Alabama coast, which tax records show are worth about $1 million total.
In this March 25, 2012, photo, Brownsville Assembly senior pastor Rev. Evon Horton preaches to his congregation in Pensacola, Fla. The church that was home to the largest Pentecostal outpouring in U.S. history is on the edge of financial ruin. (John David Mercer / AP)
Speaking directly into the camera, Kilpatrick said: “You know we’re not a money people; I’ve never been a money grubber. Never asked for money. I don’t even like taking offerings. I’ll ask for pastors to ask for offerings when we go out. I don’t like to take `em. I don’t even like to talk about `em. This is killing me for me to have to talk about this right now, but I have to do it. `Cause we’ve gotta get this message out to the world.”
The problems at Brownsville look familiar to Howard Snyder, a professor at Tyndale Seminary in Toronto who has studied revivals. When the dust settles after a spirited revival, churches can be left with divisions and no long-term plan.
“Revivals may produce rapid growth,” he wrote in an email. “But new converts or adherents need teaching, discipling, spiritual formation over time, and often the church’s leadership fails to understand this and provide for it. So very easily, `what goes up comes back down.’”
In this March 25, 2012, photo, churchgoers at the Brownsville Assembly raise their hands in praise as senior pastor Rev. Evon Horton preaches to his congregation during service in Pensacola, Fla. (John David Mercer / AP)
Back at Brownsville, remaining parishioners are embracing a new calling to pay off their debt and minister to the impoverished community around them.
“This revival touched the world but not this community,” Horton said.
In a fundraising effort that Horton said came to him from God in a dream, the church is trying to raise about $7 million by getting people to give $1,000 each for debt relief. Donors’ names will be engraved in a “walk of faith” around the old sanctuary.
“We can be debt-free if just 7,000 of the millions of people who attended the revival help out,” Horton said.
Robert Helms Jr., a church volunteer and retired Navy aviator, said the church is trying to move ahead without bitterness.
He directs a community center located in the old overflow sanctuary, where pews now hold old lamps destined for Habitat for Humanity homes. They offer day care, GED classes, youth basketball games, women’s self-defense and computer training for the neighborhood.
“We need to stop worrying about the debt, and we’ve kind of put that on the back burner,” Helms said. “We’ve said we want to reach this community, and the Lord has graciously given us all these people. Now, the question (from God) is `What are you going to do with them?’”
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Comments (109)
BruceB
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:17amNeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:56am
Show me a non cult church with a pastor that preaches the gospel for free?
Do you live close to Kansas City?
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:51amIs that why I havent got an answer? I live in the wrong place?
Report Post »Racemosa7
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:44pmEmotional out pouring with out the Scriptures leads to this type of mania. They preach healing, not the Gospel. Most Bible preaching was done outdoors.
Report Post »Rohawk
Posted on April 3, 2012 at 11:54pmPaul made tents so people couldn’t accuse his of proffiting from the gospel. He didn’t say he had to, but that he wanted to. Are Paul’s books cultic?
Report Post »KimItemMinistries
Posted on April 26, 2012 at 12:18amOpen your Bible to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and more!… The gospel is free. The kingdom of God is within, Yes! Jesus, the real Church is free-ing. Also, the sermons by Jesus are free. Watching and listening to the Bible around the clock, day to day and even into the night on DVD/T.V. makes for a wonderful church. It fills you up to overflowing, my cup runneth over. My Spirit is on fire. The anointing is flooding my soul, mind, and body, heart and life, walking with Jesus the Word. Blessings, Blessings, Blessings…More than I can contain. Happiness, joy, peace, love, health and wealth are poured out on me and my family, yes! We are blessed by hearing the Word made flesh, Jesus speaking to us night and day as God fills us, blessed us, and delivers me, and speaks to me and to my family. Loving every minute of my Savior, my friend, my Jesus. I call it the “sermon on the tube(mount)”. Enjoy!
Report Post »child of the King
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:57amTheir is a church in my hometown that they built their new church building debt free. It took them several years to build it with mostly volunteer work,but as the money came in to build it, they worked on it .If there was no money or not enogh ,they wouldn’t.I believethis is probably the best way to do it And most of all make sure it is God’s will for it to be done.If it ain‘t God’s will then it is liable to be a flop.
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 2:11pmEven a fool is counted wise when he keeps his mouth shut… Good advice for you…. Your comments again show lack of faith. There is more than enough for the pastor to have the best and me as well. The thinking that reasons if the pastor has abundance, it must have come at my expense is the birthplace of communist thinking…. You should check yourself more closely.
Report Post »Twisted Mind
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:22pmMudd, then maybe you should be quiet then. You sound like a money grubber.
Report Post »Truth Meter
Posted on March 31, 2012 at 9:37amThese are the last days, we were also deeply involved in a mega church in Atlanta throughout the 90′s and up to 07. It was a clanging symbol. Infidelity in leadership, led to a 8000 member church to now be 3000 with 17 million in debt. We now attend a 1000 member church that is debt free and gives away 40% off all tithes directly to help families in the community. Our goal is not to be a mega church but an authentic one ! Those brothers who understand the last days watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdD5IxER59I&feature=related
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:56amShow me a non cult church with a pastor that preaches the gospel for free?
Report Post »You cant because there is no such thing. Jesus might accept a meal or a place to
Lay his head at night but he would never use the gospel to pay his bills or support
His family.
Why is it that so called men of God refuse to preach the word of god without pay?
Why do they demand pay for something that God gave to all men without charge?
rt elms
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:42amDoes a soldier ever serve in the army at his own expense? Does anyone plant a vineyard and not eat the grapes? Does anyone take care of a flock and not drink milk from the sheep? (1 Corinthains 9:7)
Give double honor to spiritual leaders who handle their duties well. This is especially true if they work hard at teaching the word of God. After all, Scripture says, “Never muzzle an ox when it is threshing grain,“ and ”The worker deserves his pay.” (1 Timothy 5:17 –18)
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:50amWhere do you think the offrings went in the old testament? Who do you think ate the burnt offerings? The priests lived and ate well, as they should have. Why would you want to follow a pastor that has no understanding of victory over poverty? Why would you stand against Jesus words when he said you would not recieve less than 100 fold return in this life for forsaking all to follow him…… Sure, there are many who have erred, but a true man of god will have all the fruits of victory in his life. That includes prosperity and health. Why should you expect anything less for the man of God than you do for yourselves…, that is religion at its worst, and with it, you dishonor God.
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:00pm1 Corinthians 9 18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:06pm@mudd. So when Jesus comes back who will get richer him or Benny Hinn?
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:07pmTheres a difference between charging admission, and recieving offerings….
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:17pmAnyone with common sense knows that being paid by the widows mite is wrong.
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:27pmWould you feel confident going to a doctor that was always sick himself… Would you take legal advice from a felon? How about taking business advice from a school teacher. Why would you listen to a pastor who doesn’t understand the authority we have over the curse…. Poverty is a curse. Abundance is a blessing. When was the last time you turned down a raise at work?… But you expect the man of God to eat hot dogs and beans, and drive a compact Kia. No, Gods man will drive the best, eat the best, live in the best, wear the best…. Or is that just for your favorite athelete?
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:31pmIts comments like that, “the widows mite” that show your true indignation towards God and giving…
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:37pmAnd that’s another thing…. Jesus never said the widow was walking in common sense. Anyone with common sense and only one mite would have bought a slice of bread. But she was walking by faith, not sight. Something you might not understand.
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:39pm@mudd I would not take legal advice from a felon or moral advice from one that seeks to get gain from the poor. By your reasoning a bank robber is blessed with abundance.
Report Post »Jesus walked. He wouldnt take a kia from the poor. You know in your heart that you are robbing god.
Repent Mr Mudd.
rt elms
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:42pmWhat was his power? He could have demanded payment as an Apostle, but his discretion was not to burden the Corinthians. He did receive payment from other churches.
Another translation of 1 Corinthians 9:18 reads as follows:
So what is my reward? It is to spread the Good News free of charge. In that way I won’t use the rights that belong to those who spread the Good News.
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:51pmThats classic, once again, the hypocracy shines through…. Pastors should walk, but you should drive….with a/c, cd player, power Windows, and monthly payments to boot
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:01pm@mudd oh how comunnist of you. The comman is a hypocrite for keeping the fruits of his labor.
Report Post »Jesus lived as an example of the way we should live our lives. Even he had a job as a carpenter.
But you are above him and should have the very best from the labors of the poor. Now that is hypocracy!
muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:15pmWhats more, Jesus wasn’t too convened about the widow. He saw her faith, and she didn’t doubt the son of man. Obviously, she was a little different than some one who finds fault with the fruits of faith.
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:40pmOne more thing, “Christian” is a verb and not a noun. You are only a Christian when you are in the act of doing Christ like things for your fellow man
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:48pmrt elms
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:42am
Does a soldier ever serve in the army at his own expense?
Yes, they were called Minute Men, and today they are called Patriots, you may not see them, but they are there.
Report Post »Show me a preacher like John the Baptist and I will lend him my agnostic ear.
muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 3:06pmOops, meant to say concerned…. Jesus was not overly concerned about the widow, He saw her faith. He is concerned about you however…. Considering that he has given you far more than she had…..redemption. and you repay him with words lacking knowledge.
Report Post »rt elms
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 4:22pmMCPAPPY – Surely you know Paul wrote that well before the Minute Men existed. Given his Roman citizenship, I’m certain he was using Caesar’s army as an illustration. And we know from history they did not serve for free.
John the Baptist was one of a kind. There are no more in the queue. But if you liked his preaching, pay close attention to what they said he said about Jesus.
Sorry to hear about your agnostic ear. Maybe it will get better over time. “Faith comes by hearing…”
Report Post »Racemosa7
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:46pmAre you kidding? Show me one that preaches the Gospel. Go to http://www.soulwinner.com
Report Post »bmarchand
Posted on April 1, 2012 at 12:26am@MUDD – Please show us some scripture that backs up anything you are saying here.
Report Post »bmarchand
Posted on April 1, 2012 at 1:12am@MUDD – You said “but a true man of god will have all the fruits of victory in his life. That includes prosperity and health”
Really, MUDD? Jesus didn’t. Come to think of it, neither did Paul, Peter, John, James, Stephen… Huh, none of Jesus’ followers did. Weird, huh?
Report Post »Sh3LLz
Posted on April 3, 2012 at 2:40pmJehovah’s Witnesses do not receive any salary or compensation. There are no dues when they worship or tithes. All expenses are paid for by voluntary donation. They are unified in their worship throughout the world, unlike other denominations. And from what I’ve seen, they are the only christians who practice what they preach.
Report Post »TEARS FOR AMERICA
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:41amSomething just ain’t kosher…God loves the humble at heart and there is some failure here to stay focused…going in debt for grandios plans of man..interesting concept.
Report Post »sjohn70037
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:22amWhat was that parable about a fool and his money? If you financially support Joel Osteen, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swagart ad nauseam THIS IS YOU!!!!!
Report Post »rickbob
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:53amJust goes to show what happens when you value money more than God. . .
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:20amI was a sincere christian, during that time, . . . playing on the music team for my church, and saw the “Mercy Seat” song [with many rushing to the alter], as well as the Allison Ward video, . . . and I was moved by it. . . .powerfully. My city starting having “Brownsville Revival” style evenings where I was asked to play bass for it. It lasted several months and I even found myself getting caught up in the “jerking movement” [to some extent], and “falling over in the spirit”, . . . weeping for my “sins” and wanting “a true indwelling”. Eventually, the “revival” died out. People went back to normal.
In hindsight, it is quite understandable what happened. . . and what happens in such events. People are emotional beings. It’s why music is a HUGE part of entertainment [in movies, to set up the mood]. I saw something exciting and wanted to be a part of it. I saw people jerking, and suddenly so was I. It is simulacrum. Something that seems so real that your mind makes it real.
Ultimately, it was far from reality and more about people wanting something to be real. Even during that time, . . . even when laying on the floor, . . . even when crying out to the god I thought was real, . . . I can think back to that time and remember that I, myself, was doing these things because others were. There wasn’t anything supernatural happening. It was just my longing to fit in, and even then, I felt an empty nothing.
Report Post »Juniemoon
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:55amYou never got baptized by the Holy Ghost, you faked it. What I find odd is how people jump and shout, get excited by ball games and rock and roll concerts, yet praising God is somehow wrong? You don’t have to have the spiritual indwelling to praise God, you feel it and yes many get carried away by excitement, but I’d much rather find myself excited by the good feeling of knowing God rather than the dead excitement of a ball game which renders you nothing. God wants you to praise him, lift your hands up and praise him, then thank him and if you don’t have the baptism of the Holy Ghost, ask him to give it to you, tarry for it if you have to, you will experience a sign that you have it.
Report Post »The greatest form of worship is when God speaks to you. Without the baptism of the Spirit, you’re just dead empty vessels with no chance of entering the kingdom. You must be born of the water and the Spirit. Proof of the spirit is speaking in tongues. It is a pouring out of God’s Spirit, just a taste of it. The real pouring out comes in the 1000 yr reign, where the Spirit is poured out on all flesh, and everyone speaks in a new tongue. Today we have a sampling of the kingdom coming to earth, just as the Apostle John taught, the kingdom of God is at hand, Yeshua came, died and poured his Spirit on those who accepted it, you will speak with an unknown tongue in this world as the Spirit gives utterance. It’s that simple, things to come and you can have a taste of it today.
DeavonReye
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:06amJunie, my point was . . . yes, I wasn’t “filled with the spirit”. But only because there IS no “spirit” that “fills people with himself”. It is all about the psychology of the church movement, and [again] about simulacrum. People can make themselves FEEL what isn’t there. It’s a part of how our body works, . . . and why you can “feel the spirit”. It was what I “felt” back then. A systematic response to input stimuli . . . BECAUSE I thought it was real. It’s why many christians get all excited about the music being played, but after church, they act pretty much like anyone else. They aren‘t screaming the praises of god and jumping up and down through the week when they’re at work, in line to order something at McDonalds, or watching TV in the evenings. It is a group mentality. You are more likely to participate in large crowds and feel moved by the excitement of the others. And yes, . . . it is the same thing that happens at sports arenas.
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:09amTo add to that thought, . . . many have “felt the spirit” because of that systematic response. . . misinterpretting it because a pastor TOLD them “it was god/holy spirit”.
Now, I’m not calling anyone “a liar” when I make my statement. I’m sure your experience is very real to you, and if it gives you comfort. . . and you need that, . . . then enjoy the experience.
Report Post »meltzen
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:25pmDeavonreye, Music does play a major part in a persons life, Lucifer was an angel of light, he was the praise and worship leader in Heaven, when he walked it was like music playing with each movement. God uses music. All through Pslams David would play music to please God. I was at the Brownsville Revival in 1998 and God was their. I am spirit filled believe according to Acts. God touched me very much, I felt it first hand and it was not just psychological reaction. God sends a revival to revive his people. But we do live in a sinful world, where sinful things happen. Yes after you leave church on sunday you may be faced with things that are not Holy or Godly. That is why we need to ask for guidance, strength and direction in our daily walk, we also need to set aside to walk and talk with God. God has never left you. Hes waiting on you.
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:08pmMeltzen, I appreciate your concern for me, but I have no reason to believe that the “god” I attempted to believe in is in any way real. If what you feel works for you, then enjoy it. However, I insist upon more than ethereal manifistations that are highly subjective in nature. It is just who I am and I cannot change that. That’s why I say, . . . IF there is a “god being” that cares about me and has the “omni” characterics, it will know where to meet ME in the process. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Report Post »Jezreel
Posted on March 31, 2012 at 7:46pmSounds like you were worshipping the golden calf, the false image of God that the church world has provided for those who are not His. God is destroying the system of religion. These music worship teams are not pleasing to God. It is a waste of time. It is all vanity, emptiness. The people of God who are truly his take delight and praise in the fact that they have been forgiven and saved by his blood and love him. We don’t need to be entertained. We don’t need to have others pray for us. Our relationship with him is so close that we strive to just have Him and non other. What you can do is go to those who buy and sell. I will not give you some of my oil unless there not be enough for myself.
Report Post »bmarchand
Posted on April 1, 2012 at 12:53am@DEAVON – It’s sad to me to read your words because I can relate to the damage that “religion” or churches can do to people when it‘s discovered later that it’s not authentic or it’s manufactured. You said “I have no reason to believe that the “god” I attempted to believe in is in any way real.” I would totally agree – the “god” you attempted to believe in isn’t real. But that does not mean that there is no God. While your experience in that church was horrific and damaging, you can’t honestly say “Well, if that wasn’t real then God must not be real.” That’s throwing the baby out with the bath water. I know you’ve heard other experiences, but trust me when I say that, when you really surrender yourself to Him, you will realize that God is very real. It’s not about the emotion or group mentality because He will come when you least expect it, probably when you’re all alone. All it takes is to earnestly seek and ask? I know it‘s hard to even think like that after all you’ve been through, but it is worth it. Seek God while He may be found. Ask questions. Challenge. If “believers” won’t answer you, find ones who will. Shoot, get in touch with me, I’ll answer you. And then you search the Scriptures. That’s where God will answer you. Don‘t take anyone’s word for anything unless they can back it up with Scripture. But seek the real God. I’ll be praying you do.
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on April 2, 2012 at 10:24amWell, Jezreel, it is absolutely true that I was attempting to worship a false god. At that time, I was sincere and quite sure I WAS, . . . but knowing what I do now, it was just the group mentality thing. In my ~20 years of “looking/seeking/opening the door being knocked on”, I never had anything even remotely close to “a relationship”, . . . and even MORE remote [read: didn't happen at all] of a “personal relationship”. I was absolutely sincere in my attempt.
I’m feeling much better these days! :-)
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on April 2, 2012 at 10:33amBmarchand, while I appreciate your words and concern, my life in the church was not all “brownsville revival”. I would say that 5% of my time was that, . . . and quite frankly, I felt foolish deep inside when I was in it. But in my normal experience, I absolutely did earnestly seek and ask of the god I felt was real. What was far more obvious to me was the inky black nothingness that was my reality during that time. I learned from many church leaders on how a “relationship” was found, . . . but try as I did, nothing ever materialized [because none of it was real, as I know now].
I know that you would graciously present me many arguments for why I should give myself over to your god, . . . but you should know that I have heard them all. Indepth study and “questioning the very existence of god” was an mind opening experience. As a agnostic, I cannot conclude that “there IS no god, goddess, or the multiple thereof”. What I DO know is that I have not had any reason to accept it. Extraordinary claims absolutely DO require extraordinary evidence.
Report Post »rt elms
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:20amFrom the article:
“loans were the only way to pay for growth”
and
“the church used mortgages to expand rather than cash”
From the Bible:
Report Post »“…a borrower is a slave to a lender.” Proverbs 22:7
Texas.7
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:21amSo true, in government, in personal finance- and most of all within our churches.
Report Post »NealPatrick
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:16am“In a fundraising effort that Horton said came to him from God in a dream….” As I have previously said, anytime you find scamy, weird, fraudulent, bizarre activity in the protestant religion world, you will find charismatics. Bad theology, emotionalism and cult-of-personality are not a sound basis for Christian belief and practice.
Report Post »techengineer11
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:37amI’d take it any day over some pathetic dead dried up pharisaical type Orthodox Church. As someone that has attended both I’ve seen from experience that the congregations in the more non-denominational Churches typically have a far greater understanding of the Scriptures than do the more traditional congregations..
Otherwise this a fair and balanced article Billy warning us of the dangers of debt and profligacy.
Report Post »JabberwockyBandersnatch
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:43amDid anyone happen to catch the sentence that read: “He also lamented the cost of maintaining two homes near the Alabama coast, which tax records show are worth about $1 million total”
Report Post »Upon further investigation it turns out that the two homes are a 5,557-square-foot house and a two-story, 4,916-square-foot garage-guest house. I always get suspicious when a “man of God” lives in such lavishness.
DeavonReye
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:08amTrue. You can gauge a minister’s true calling by the size of his home[s].
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:04pmIf you think you can Guatemala a ministers true calling by the size of thier home… Then you walk by sight, and not by faith. God is only pleased with faith. If you don’t like the way that shoe fits….. Change it, only you can….
Report Post »muddpuddle
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:12pmIf you think you can gauge a pastors calling by the size of his home, then you walk by sight and not by faith. If you don’t like the way that shoe fits, change it…. Only you can…
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:03pmMudd, my point is, . . . IF a pastor/evangelist truly cares about “winning the lost” and “helping the sick, hungry, thirsty, naked”, then any exhuberant wealth is hypocritical to the utmost degree. If you’re just in it for YOUR bottom line [houses, cars, business jets], then you should admit it to yourself and those who gullibly send you money for their “prayers to be placed on a table and prayed over” by said evangelist/pastor.
Report Post »Sh3LLz
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:17amIf this were a true ministry from God.. Wouldnt all pentecostals from around the world be able to help each other? You know? I know there are other pentecostals out there. Why dont the churches who are doing well help this one out???
Sounds like this faith isnt dwelling in unity like Jesus commanded….
Report Post »Dismayed Veteran
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:16amIt sounds as if Kilpatrick draw was his personality. The cult of the personality is a dangerous path to walk down. Trust in the word of God not in a charismatic pastor.
Report Post »EqualJustice
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:11amPeople don’t have any MONEY these days and IF they do, it goes for basics, taxes and thousands of NEW FEES (which we can NOT call TAXES) PLUS, Churches and religious organizations are constantly trying to DEFEND themselves against the OBAMA administration attacks. This is the main COMMIE goal.. take GOD out of EVERYTHING. This administration is systematically destroying ANYTHING Christian, Jewish or moral.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:17amAccording to the article, this church has never had money; the breaking point might have come recently, but its foundation has been there for years and is nothing new. By their own admission, they only expanded through debt. From the article:
“Kilpatrick said Brownsville was never the wealthy church many assumed during the revival years, so loans were the only way to pay for growth. He said the church fell deeper into debt after he departed and membership dropped.”
Report Post »Marine25
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:34amWhat new fees are you paying? What attacks against churches are they paying millions to their lawyers to defend? Fact is, this administration has stood up for the establishment clause and teat gets fundamentalists all worked up but they are idiots who don‘t understand the meanings of simple words like ’communist’ as you have well proven. There is about a 99.7 percent certainty that your federal taxes have gone down since 09, and if not, well you are wonderfully wealthy and good for you.
Report Post »Please check the facts before your rants, seems to me the only fact you are likely interested in is that this President doesn’t look like all the others.
Walkabout
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:10amMarine25
State income taxes went up by double digits. Fees went up on tags. Vanity tags used to be free but renewing them in the last 5 years has not been. Someone said get a vanity tag it will be easier to remember. It costs nothing. Well it didn’t until 5 years later. Then you can‘t get rid of them without paying a fee that you won’t recoup until after 5 years. Property taxes go up every year regardless of the housing market.
Worse comes to worse in a generation you will be taxed based on your income for roads if you don’t have car.
There is a problem. the pols will live in low crime gated communities with the highest ones receiving round the clock police protection. They will be anti gun pols. They will look around & say the average person doesn’t experience crime & doesn’t need guns. They will still be making laws whether or not there is new technology or there is no new tech. They will spend more time glad handing & politicking than a holder of a PHD studies, researchers & publishes. Who is worth more to society?
Fees will keep going up. It will be for cell phones & laptops for the poor while you make do with one that should be retired. Do you have to be mugged like Mike Savage? As social working in NYC he had to hand a gov check to a welfare recipient for furniture for more money that he made in a year.
Report Post »There are people unable to work because of AIDS who get free housing & other benefits that equal to any 03 & below. But they are
NotALiberal1
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:50amTim, this early in the a.m. you really ought to give the ‘meds’ at least an hour to ‘kick in’ before you start posting! Say, a doughnut and two cups of coffee, then post.
Report Post »RepubliCorp
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:45amFree Market
Report Post »OUTRIDER WRITER
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:43am@ITSJUSTTIM and others
Report Post »I’m much more reluctant to criticize the misfortunes of a church or its members when all my info is from the media. Your flowery and actually boastful assessment sounds way too cynical and judgmental.
…
In my own city, a small church that was housed in an old early 1900s building acquired a really good pastor who tripled the membership to where he preached two services and darn near had to preach three services each Sunday. A lovely (and big…) new sanctuary was built and funded based on conservative principles. Then came the recession. The church wasn’t to blame that half their congregation fell on hard times and/or lost their jobs. You can‘t tithe if you don’t have a job. Best to keep slander and what might be misinformation to yourself unless you have first-hand knowledge of the cause.
Locked
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 9:14am“A lovely (and big…) new sanctuary was built and funded based on conservative principles.”
No debt was used? The small parish I attended as a child built a new, lovely church… after saving and fundraising for 15 years. No debt, lots of volunteers, a beautiful building, and the efforts of the entire community – now THAT’S what conservative principles look like in action. Foreclosed churches because the clergy was bad with money or debt? Not so much.
Report Post »Centurian
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:59amLocked,
Not necessarily true. The fact is that when the housing bubble burst, more and more banks were reluctant to work with churches, where in the past they were. Thus, churches who had a long history of refinancing, suddenly found that they could no longer renegotiate their loans.
Again, while it is true that many churches may have bitten off more than they can chew, it is also true that the banking industry has changed the way they do business over the last 5 years.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:09am@Centurian
“Again, while it is true that many churches may have bitten off more than they can chew, it is also true that the banking industry has changed the way they do business over the last 5 years.”
Absolutely correct; the banks have screwed countless people, organizations, and churches. However if one didn’t rely on loans, or anticipated a “worst-case scenario” plan in case this exact kind of catastrophe happened… then they didn’t lose their home, office, or place of worship. That’s what I mean by (financially) conservative principles: it’s living within your means, and anticipating how to continue living even if your means change.
That’s the thing about banks. If you don’t do business with them, they can’t screw you over ;-)
Report Post »OUTRIDER WRITER
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 12:34pm@LOCKED
Report Post »Touche. You got me, by way of what I’d written.
…
More clarification (I’m not a member of the biggie church; MY small, recently built 350-capacity church was built debtfree)– I’m sure the biggie church had debt, but the accountants figured their mortage was easily attainable based on the large number of members earning top-end professional wages. They figured wrong as jobs tumbled and people fled. Our area got hit harder than others by corporate downsizing. Just sayin‘ that some churches don’t deserve the Bible thumping. On the other hand, if a church were funded via the “Dave Ramsey” principle, none would be slave to the lender. So, you are factual in your reply to my post and I stand corrected.
MrMagoo
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:42amMy parents took me and my 12 brothers and sisters to a little Catholic church in the boonies in Indiana one day,in a old but nice red and white 1966 Ford Fairlane station wagon.We weren’t all in it ,of course.I remember half of us were..:)
1 small church,1 priest, my family and a couple other people.I was unsure about it all.We sat down in the pews and remained silent…..what was Mom&Dad doing?…Bringing US here..out here?
The priest had invited his best friend,a rabbi,to preach the sermon.It was very simple and direct.Seemed like 15 minutes ….l
Here’s what he said,I’ll never forget it…it was something like this…….
http://www.comflm.com/crn-teambreakingnews/id6.html
My sister won $250,000, 3 days later.
Susie
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:37amI guess if their followers had tithed, the way the bible directs – 10% – without fail – then they would have had a contract with God. But those who rely on the weekly offerings put in a collection plate are not following the teachings of Christ, but preaching the doctrines of men.
Report Post »Not surprised then, when they seem to have “no idea” what happened to the money.
Plain & simple.
Juniemoon
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:36amYou don’t know what the bible teaches about tithing, it was in the temple days that the 10% tithing took place, it was the first fruits of the people for the temple. The first fruits were the grains, wheat, barley, the olive oil for lamp burning, for cooking, for anointing, the spices, herbs, first male animal without spot or blemish for the daily sacrificing. And guess what? It was only done in the land of ISRAEL! The Apostles never lived off of donations, they attended their trades, Paul still made tents, Peter still fished. Paul while staying in Alexander with Jason, said if you don’t work, you don’t eat, he made tents, he was not going to let Jason feed him and Silas while staying there. Sure people can tithe but to think you are obligated to keep a minister up is wrong. Yeshua told us to feed the poor, help the widow and the orphan, you don‘t find him or the Apostles telling anyone to feed the church’s ministers. Do some study on it, instead of taking it as the gospel.
Report Post »bmarchand
Posted on April 1, 2012 at 1:05am@JUNI – You said “The Apostles never lived off of donations, they attended their trades”
Really? Matthew 10:9-11 – “Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart.”
See also Mark 6:8-10 and Luke 9:3-4. If the Apostles never lived off of donations, they must have been some hungry, thirsty souls staying in some really stingy homes. I’m pretty sure they were getting donations to live on, since even Jesus did say “the laborer deserves his food.”
Report Post »watashbuddyfriend
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:36amNo matter how small the church is, INTERNAL CONTROL over the flow of funds, is a MUST!
Report Post »watashbuddyfriend
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:39amAnd, the Pastor, Preacher, Minister, etc., shall have no say over how the funds are to be handled!
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:34amEveryone I have personal input on this case; I lived in Pensacola and had to deal with the leader of the Brownsville church. Kilpatrick often made the claim that “Only in Brownsville could you receive the Holy Spirit” and yes there was a massive influx of wealth brought in, including a land cruiser given to the pastor himself….which he managed not to pay any taxation upon via the church.
So in the case of Brownsville I have to say this much; if the new pastor has God in his heart and walks in true faith and humility, as God wants, then to the good for all.
If not, then so be it.
Under Kilpatrick I had seen too much wrong happen, too much exploited, too much of mortal riches getting in the way of things.
Let Gods will be done.
I will say no more.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:34amSpend more than you take in and you go broke. That goes for churches, individuals and governments too.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:24amBaptize in Jesus name.
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:35amReally, are you really baptized in Jesus’ name? So you think the rote of putting your head under H2O is baptism, Because Jesus came by water and blood, and that’s how Jesus was baptized by the waters of John the baptist, by nations growing and falling, growing and falling over and over again. You surely don’t baptize your children in the name of Jesus especially when you turn around to only coddle them.
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:37amNow, me telling you the things I’m telling you is me telling you what Baptism is, and when the world collapses, then you have been baptized in the waters.
Report Post »Juniemoon
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:13amYou are so right, it was the only way people were baptized after the death burial and resurrection of Yeshua. Paul re-baptized those that were baptized under John’s formula. Peter baptized in the name of Yeshua. There was nothing wrong with the way John baptized at that time. The death, burial and resurrection hadn’t taken place yet. Baptizing in the name of Yeshua means that you are accepting the Authority given to him by God, and that you accept him as the blood atonement, the sacrifice for your sins, the lamb. It means you believe that the death and resurrection happened, it means you are burying the old man (death) and are resurrecting the new man in Him. It means that you have washed your sins by burying them in the water, (mikvah) and are raised a new man, a vessel ready for the infilling of God’s breath, the Holy Spirit. That infilling doesn‘t come as as soon as you’re baptized, some have to tarry and pray for the infilling and you will speak with a new tongue as the Spirit gives utterance. It’s the sign (proof positive) of being filled with his Spirit. It’s the sign of things to come. The new millennium where his Spirit is poured out on all flesh and there all speak in a new tongue and in one accord.
Report Post »hauschild
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:22amI’m thinking we all need to focus less on religion and more on the Constitution, as the former doesn’t appear to be doing much positive these days. Too many crooks in every profession.
Report Post »Rational Man
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 10:30amGeorge Washington
1st U.S. President
“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.”
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
“It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors.”
I guess Washington didn’t agree with you. And neither do I.
Report Post »bmarchand
Posted on April 1, 2012 at 1:16am@Rational – BEAUTIFUL!!! Well done.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:12am“Kilpatrick said Brownsville was never the wealthy church many assumed during the revival years, so loans were the only way to pay for growth. He said the church fell deeper into debt after he departed and membership dropped.”
Sigh. I’m sorry their church is floundering, but they turned away from the Bible.
” 1 A good name is more desirable than great riches;
to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.” Proverbs 22:1
” 7 The rich rule over the poor,
and the borrower is slave to the lender.” Proverbs 22:7.
The Bible’s teachings, or even common sense, would have helped them. If you can only expand through debt, and cannot ever pay it off, eventually you’ll go broke.
Congress should probably read the Bible or get some common sense as well…
Report Post »soybomb315
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:21ami completely agree. this is a problem in churches throughout this country – and financial matters have completely been ignored by churches in this country….too sensitive i guess
gold is the currency of kings,
Report Post »silver is the currency of merchants,
and debt is the currency of slaves
MrMagoo
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:10amAlways start over
Where people are gathered in my(God) name…………
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:18amSure that means, after you have been beaten all over the place with misery and tragedy everywhere, if you can still not curse the Lord, but instead gather in God’s name, then there the Lord will be.
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:22amThe problem with Americans is that because of their spoiled lifestyle, they think some of the smallest things is tragedy.
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:27amTo me tragedy is getting gathered into captivity in Babylon to worship the Dallas Cowboys, Ford Mustangs, and getting some piece of paper that says you’re learned, when in reality you are not learned or even intellectual otherwise you would know you are in captivity. Ding Dong!
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:08amGood. There’s nothing quite like watching the useless fountains of the deep get broken up. And they go into their useless Chapel saying “Oh gosh, oh gee save me Lord” and the lord says: I gave you my beloved son, and he laid the path to the Father with his testimony through the “Word” through Jesus to the Father, and you have let your own understanding slide growing lukewarm with your useless rote. Save yourselves.
Report Post »Juniemoon
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 11:24amYou left his mercy. His mercy endureth forever, he even forgives murderers. Are you an atheist, because I‘m pretty sure you’re not a bible scholar?
Report Post »Cida
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 1:46pm@ ITSJUSTTIM
Report Post »I have read your post as you intended, or you would not have posted them for all to see. I am perplexed but really trying to understand the meaning behind them. Is this your own personal philosophy or did something crawl up your butt and decided to speak for you because you are not making sense. I find your post judgemental with a holier than thou christian attitude. You attact other peoples intelligence but have problems with your own. You only answer other peoples post because you have no original thoughts on the subject. I did not want to say this but maybe you need to go lie on a couch and talk to someone, then perhaps you can handle a deeper conversation after you have collected yourself. I Stand With Israel…Am Israel.
MWMWMW
Posted on March 30, 2012 at 8:12pmTim, why do hate God so much? He certainly loves you. He has never hurt you or harmed you. Yet you hate the one who died for you so that you could have a sweet, sweet relationship with him. Give him your heart and he will give you a loving brand new one that is not filled with so much torment and pain. God does LOVE you.
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