Famed Evangelical Josh McDowell Details ‘Horrific’ Sexual Abuse & Why He Once Tried to Disprove Jesus’ Resurrection in New Autobiography
- Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:46am by
Billy Hallowell
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Josh McDowell (Photo Credit: Josh.org)
Evangelical leader Josh McDowell has built an extremely successful ministry – one that reaches believers across the globe, helping them to properly “live out their Christian faith.” His inspiring and wide-reaching work, which spans decades, has led McDowell, 73, to pen more than 100 books.
In his latest project, an autobiography called “Undaunted” (both a book and an accompanying movie), McDowell details his path from agnosticism to becoming one of the world’s most respected Christian trailblazers. According to an official description, the book “chronicles the riveting true story of a young farm boy named Josh who carried unspeakable memories of an alcoholic father and a farmhand’s abuse, causing him to defy God’s existence.”
The book, which comes out today, delves deeply into McDowell’s personal life, providing a fascinating lens into the leader’s character and his ability to overcome seeming insurmountable odds. For the first time, he puts to writing the horrific childhood abuse he sustained at the hands of an alcoholic father. In addition to the dysfunction and violence that came along with this dynamic, McDowell suffered homosexual sex abuse at the hands of a farmhand and home helper named Wayne.
Prior to the book’s publication, TheBlaze secured an exclusive look at a chapter in “Undaunted” that deals with Wayne’s abusiveness. While the details are disturbing — and tragic — McDowell’s story is an important one that contains lessons for a great many people whose faith has been impacted by similar injustices.
Photo Credit: Tyndale
In chapter three, the faith leader details the abuse he sustained in rural Michigan in the 1940s and 1950s. Perhaps the most disturbing detail — outside of the abuse itself — was the fact that McDowell tried to tell his mother about what was happening, but she didn’t believe him.
Here’s a portion of the chapter that highlights the abuse, which started when the Christian leader was six-years-old. The text also highlights McDowell’s inability to convince those around him to address what was happening:
Wayne began molesting me within weeks after he started working for my family. The first time it happened I was six years old, and I had no idea what was going on. I remember feeling confusion and shame, then excitement and pleasure, and later seething anger and a deep sense of guilt. Wayne’s abuse and emotional manipulation would continue for the next seven years.
Twice I told Mom about it, but she didn’t believe me, dismissing the subject as unfit for discussion. At that time in America, and perhaps in society in general, sexual abuse was hardly talked about. It was considered something best kept from the public eye—hushed up and consequently never dealt with as it should have been.
When Mom rebuffed me for telling her about Wayne’s actions, I never talked to anyone else about it. I don’t think they would have believed me anyway. And if they had believed me, they would likely have sidestepped the issue, hoping the problem would somehow just go away.
But it didn’t go away. Wayne came looking for me whenever he could, whenever an opportunity presented itself. If I was alone on the farm for an hour or two, he became a hunter in search of his prey. If I was alone in the barn doing my chores, he’d come looking for me. Sometimes I’d wake up early in the morning with him sitting on the edge of my bed, fondling me. “Doesn’t that feel good?” he’d say. Then he’d have me get up and dress for school in front of him. It was devastating every time.
In the chapter, McDowell goes on, in more detail, to describe the horror he faced as a young child, specifically during times when his parents would take trips and leave him with the predator. During the attacks, he remembers feeling the need to “scream” and wanting “to run away.” But, not having any place to go and being so young, he was trapped in a cycle of abuse that, to this day, has left him with painful memories.
Naturally, his tragic childhood experience had a profound impact on the evangelist. In fact, at one point he actually attempted to disprove Christ’s resurrection story. But, in the end, McDowell came to embrace the faith and his subsequent ministry activity has helped to spread Biblical tenets throughout the globe.
Below, see the powerful trailer for the film, “Undaunted: The Early Life of Josh McDowell,” that accompanies the book (get more information on the film here):
McDowell has shared what his web site calls a “gripping story of hope, forgiveness and abundant grace” in an effort to help others who have faced similar challenges. In the end, it shows how he took all of the horrible situations that befell him and turned them over to the Christian God he embraces so fervently. For more information or to get a copy of the book, click here.
Excerpt taken from ”Undaunted.” Copyright © 2012 by Josh D. McDowell. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved.
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davecorkery
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:46pmSurhan
Allah would be a good decider if he existed. But he doesn’t. There are no sky gods living in clouds. get over yourself. The koran was written by men. So was the bible. Therefore they are merely men’s opinions of how they want you to lead your life.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 1:17pm@ DAVECORKERY- Thanks, I don‘t know how I’ve gotten along this long in my life without your pearls of wisdom.
If the Qur’an was written by men, how does it effect your life if I believe it’s the word of God? Is it that you want me to believe like you? I‘ve never met you you’ve never met me so, why do you care what I believe?
Report Post »Joseph2
Posted on September 3, 2012 at 10:56amWho and what are these “sky gods” you refer to? Have you ever actually thought about these religions or do you get all your information from TV and Hollywood?
Report Post »kathystone
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:54amMy mother knew when my dad badgered her into letting him be a boy scout leader even though they had no kids. She knew when he and his buddy, the assistant scout leader, came back from taking the scouts to yosemite and all the pictures were of naked boys. She knew when her brother came to live with us so he could go to college and then without explainatioj dropped out of school. She knew when he convinced her we would look like a loving “Christian” family if she let him open a home for preteen wayward boys and he spent more time in their room than hers. She knew when my 8 year old brother started to wet the bed and act afraid of my dad and his boys.But she wanted that “look” more than she wanted to pretect her kids. When my nephew went to my aunt about being molested she beast him for “lying”,. When both of my brothers ran away from home at 14, she blamed them for seducing her husband. Eventually she did confront him. He kicked her and the girls out allong with my “sissy” brother. He kept my other brother. He was arrested in 1986 and pled temporary insanity.He was sentenced to a6 month stint at a nut house. He left California and changed his name. He and his former friend hooked up and traveled the west coast preying on little boys. His buddy got caught. He had a diary chronicalling over 35,000 “trysts. I pray nightly for these boys. I have no tolerance for child molesters.
Report Post »waggie
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:49pmI’m so sorry.
Report Post »BadBadTiger
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 1:58amThis also happened to me and my hippy mother said it was just “child sex play”; uh not when I am 8 and the other guy is almost 20! My mom is a b*tch and I will never forgive her for this attitude and not protecting me and my other siblings (all of who were raped). The 2 men who molested me WERE gay and are still gay men to this day. They dont identify themselves as child molesters (but they are). Being seduced by older men is devastating and gave me serious mental health issues for decades, including trying to kill myself 3 times. Its just AWFUL how people will molest kids, including close family members!!!
Report Post »Eraina962
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:31amBadbadtiger, I was molested too and so was my sister and I believe my brothers were as well. My sister was addicted to drugs (and finally got off that) but she committed suicide. I decided to take a different path. I developed a strong relationship to God, went through group incest therapy and came out a stronger, wiser and more loving person than I ever thought I could be. In a conversation I had with God, He said to me, “You are my daughter. I gave you that situation as a gift because I wanted you to overcome it with your soul and integrity intact. And you did — just as I knew you would.”
You don’t have to stay in a hurt victim place. It is your right to find love and joy in this life. I hope you do.
Report Post »nonofmybiznez
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:47pmYou should all go to bed and stop arguing with Surhan. He only serves to antagonize you and try to create doubt.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:57pm@ NONOFMYBIZNEZ- Is that the best you’ve got? You asked me to show you proof. I’ve given you proof. Are you the parent/guardian of these people? I think they are smart enough to know when it’s time for them to go beddy bye.
You, on the other hand, well, I’m not so sure. You are like those people locked up in prison, you’re institutionalized, you need to be told when to go to bed, when to wake up, and when to eat.
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 1:15am@ non
You are right. Surhan provokes arguements about the tiny things, and twists and turns to try and make his point.
He does not address the real problem of Islam, which is that it a blight on civilisation.
Let’s just take one of the legions of atrocities committed by adherants of Islam. Each year tens of thousands of young girls are forced into marriage with much older men. These men have usually paid for them, or traded property for them. They cannot escape except by divorce, which is difficult for these young girls to achieve. Their husbands can treat them as they wish – even kill them.
Here is one such 12 y.o. girl who is terrified of her husband and is begging for help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA0Aa71sTPE
But instead of addressing this and other outrages, Surhan argues very fine theological points in order to imply that Islam is a credible, decent, and peaceful religion.
Watch him at work. It is an education.
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:43amSurhan goes straight on the attack because he knows that his normal approach will not work. I know his tactics.
Did you notice that he brought up the fact that the USA has not yet had a female president as an example of how badly western civilisation treats its women? That was funny, but not as hilarious as his assertion that Islam treats men and women equally.
There is a special brutality that Islam reserves for women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2kFzGyKgpA&feature=related
For the most part, muslims are poorly educated. Women, especially are restricted in their potential education as this makes them easier to control. This makes them equal to men, according to Surhan.
If a muslim woman is raped she needs four male witnesses to prove her case. This makes them equal to men according to Surhan.
A muslim woman‘s share of her father’s estate is only half of a son’s. This makes women equal to men according to Surhan.
Oh, and that poor twelve year old in the first clip has probably been murdered by now, and nobody will seek justice on her behalf, because as Surhan says, she is equal to a man and can look after herself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2kFzGyKgpA&feature=related
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:54amHere is another muslim woman that Surhan assures us has been “granted all fundamental rights”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzNFWaTjGws&feature=related
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:57amHere is a young girl who suufered an acid attack fron two muslim men. Her crime was going to school.
This supports Surhan’s statement that women are treated equally under Islam…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo6uRwwnFH0&feature=related
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 4:11amI guess Surhan has gone to check with his imam about what to say next…
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 6:44am@ NZKIWI- Quick, guess which religion, Islam or Christianity says: “If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil.
23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
If you guessed Christianity, you’d be right! Deuteronomy 22:22-29
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 6:47am@ NZKIWI- The village idiot states that: “For the most part, muslims are poorly educated. Women, especially are restricted in their potential education as this makes them easier to control.”
Nzkiwi has never let the truth stand in the way of a good lie: Islam teaches that education of men and women is of equal importance. The Holy Quran holds learning as priceless and tells that only the learned can understand the signs of God and His wisdom, and come close to Him. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has said:
“It is the duty of every Muslim man and woman to seek knowledge.”
The Holy prophet had keen interest in the education of women. His own wife, Ayesha was highly learned and he is reported to have said to his companions: Learn half of the faith from Ayesha. After the death of the Holy prophet his companions frequently asked her for guidance in matters on which there was a difference of opinion and she was considered an authority on many vital issues and a large number of authentic traditions were narrated by her.
Islam denounced the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not posses a soul . Woman’s spiritual equality with man is repeatedly stressed in the Holy Quran. For instance it is said:
“Enter into paradise ye and your wives, honored and happy. (43:71)”
“Whose acts righteously, whether male or female and is a believer, we will surely grant him a pure life; (16:98)
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 6:49am@ NZKIWI- My favorite lie that is told by believing Christians is: “If a muslim woman is raped she needs four male witnesses to prove her case.”
Whenever I see this lie, I feel like a kid opening Christmas presents on Christmas morning. Because it is too easy to prove it is false. And like a bear with his paw caught in a trap Nzkiwi feel for it:
(4:15-16) If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. (15) If two persons among you are guilty of lewdness punish them both. If they repent and amend leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. (16)
As you can see, If a woman is accused of something, the accuser must have four RELIABLE witnesses. The penalty for rape in Islam is death. If a man is accused of rape he must provide evidence he didn’t do it. If he cannot provide evidence, both the man and the woman accuser must swear to Allah on the penalty of death and to be sent to hell if they are liars. If they both swear, Allah will decide who is lying and who is telling the truth. Allah is the best Decider.
Report Post »Platonician
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 6:53am@nzkiwi on Muslim pig surhansurhan “Watch him at work. It is an education.”
You are totally right. I’ve met several of these specimens in academia. They are a very interesting sociological phenomenom. On one hand they owe their whole actual lives to the Western societies they live in, thus to Christianity, on the other hand they live idealizing “their roots”, islam. While living in such a bubble may have worked for pigs like Edward Said, 30 years ago, the world is a small village now. The average individual knows what’s happening in Iran and Syria, etc. everyone has also access to abundant statistical data on the backwardness of the primitive societies they come from.
The nice part is that this contradicition creates a nice psychotic split in their minds, which makes them incapable of achieving anything, which I think is finally good. This guy wouldn’t survive a couple of years in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 8:39am@ PLATONICIAN- You know, you remind me of Saul of Tarsus from the Bible. They called him a babbler. That’s what you are, you’re a babbler. You’ve got nothing to say. You just can’t go to sleep right now.
When you say; “they owe their whole actual lives to the Western societies they live in, thus to Christianity,”
Lucky for me I don’t live in the West. You see, they’ve got this new thing out now called the internet, and no matter where you are in the world, you can talk to other people. Maybe it hasn’t made it to your NECK of the woods. If you get my drift. Intellectual!
You said: “The nice part is that this contradicition creates a nice psychotic split in their minds, which makes them incapable of achieving anything, which I think is finally good.”
Western culture would still be counting on their fingers and toes if it weren’t for Islam and the Arab culture. The number zero and Arabic numbering system are both derived from Islam:
Robert Kaplan, author of The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero and former professor of mathematics at Harvard University, provides this answer:
“The first evidence we have of zero is from the Sumerian culture in Mesopotamia, some 5,000 years ago. The first recorded zero appeared in Mesopotamia around 3 B.C. Zero reached western Europe in the 12th century.”
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 9:03am@Platonician
Notice how he dangles a slew of cut-and-paste quotations hoping that you will rise to the bait and argue one or more of them? Then he will come back with another quote, often out of context, and so on until he has drawn you away from the main point.
That point being the savage brutality that Islam uses to control its poorly educated adherents. The use a variety of strategies to work their way into civilised society until they have sufficient numbers to start using votes and/or force. And always the innocents are callously brutalised. Children are indoctrinated in the Koran, which often amounts to their total education, which increases Islam’s vice-like grip.
Their brittle, backward ideology cannot survive intellectual inspection, so that is “haram”, or forbidden. Surhan’s job is to distract, vex, and isolate, and, if possible, to create doubt by drawing people into one of his pointless debates. He attempts to confer legitimacy on his poisonous ideology by the fact that people are responding rationally. He doesn’t care about right or wrong; he has already partly succeeded. Fortunately, Islamic methods are too unsubtle to be overlooked for long.
Here are the muslim bully boys in security shirts in action in Michigan. I am a great admirer of America, but this is a problem that has been ignored for too long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=-2okgUG_5Ys&NR=1
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 10:07amOne thing that does annoy me about Surhan is his moniker.
Sirhansirhan was the muslim that shot Robert Kennedy to death. While Surhan hasn’t spelled it correctly, it is his sly insult to Americans on the Blaze.
He may bluster at length, but the stories of people who have been sadistically brutalised by their own “religion” are a more powerful and more convincing message.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oVoLqjaKiw&feature=related
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 10:09amAnyway, bedtime for me.
Surhan no doubt thinks that he has “kicked my butt” again.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 10:53am@ NZKIWI- I‘ve said it before and I’ll say it again. This guy thinks he’s the savior sent to protect The (stupid, ill-informed, simple minded) Blazers from little ole me.
Look at how he tries to warn everyone to beware of what he considers to be some kind of strategy on my part: “Notice how he dangles a slew of cut-and-paste quotations hoping that you will rise to the bait and argue one or more of them? Then he will come back with another quote, often out of context, and so on until he has drawn you away from the main point.”
Look at what you’ve done since you got here…you‘ve done nothing but add these stupid links that don’t mean a thing to anything closely related to the subject we’re supposed to be talking about. In just one quick count I counted at least 7-10 links posted by you alone. Oh, I know your strategy, its do as I say, not as I do!
This guy praises his own society for their intelligence, but at the same time he doesn‘t think your’re intelligent enough to read what a Muslim has to say about Christianity and make-up your own mind as to whose right or whose wrong. I give you guys more credit than that.
We may not agree on anything, but at least we had the debate. This guy doesn’t want you to have that. He reminds me of one of those book burning people. He‘s had this conversation but he doesn’t want you to have it because you’re not smart enough to reject it like him so, he’ll just burn it for you.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 11:14am@ NZKIWI- He says: “Their brittle, backward ideology cannot survive intellectual inspection”
What he doesn’t realize is that Islam has been around for at least 1400 years. Christianity had a 600 year head start on Islam and Islam is catching up to Christianity in adherents. Islam is the fastest growing religion not only in the world, but in America as well.
World wide adherents of Christianity is about 1.6 billion people. For Islam its roughly 1.3 billion adherents. But for him Islam will fail any minute now. He’s probably looking at his watch waiting for the shoe to drop on Islam.
This is the funny thing about what he said: “Surhan’s job is to distract, vex, and isolate, and, if possible, to create doubt by drawing people into one of his pointless debates.”
Check out his and my little back and forth to see who started this whole thing and you’ll see, it wasn’t me! I was minding my own business.
He says: “He attempts to confer legitimacy on his poisonous ideology by the fact that people are responding rationally. He doesn’t care about right or wrong; he has already partly succeeded. Fortunately, Islamic methods are too unsubtle to be overlooked for long.”
If I said anything on this string or anywhere else, you’re free to accept it or reject it. To you, your religion. And to me, mine. There’s no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out before lies and errors. (from the Glorious Qur’an)
Report Post »nonofmybiznez
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:12pmloriann12, I understand your point of view. Without being abused, I’m not sure I would be where I am today. I love God with all my heart. He did not cause the abuse. He brought me through it. Satan did not win my soul. Not that he didn’t try for many years. We are tested by the trials to see how deep is our love. Are we willing to forgive even our abuser? I learn from the trials just as I learn from the love he surrounds me with. Love is the only thing in this world that matters. I know that my love of God may target me for persecution. I expect it, but they will not win in the end. The end is the beginning.
Report Post »bdandsl
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:15pmThis happens more than you expect, even in your own family. Keep vigilant and NO ONE is exempt from suspicion. It is often the least likely person you’d expect!
Report Post »PurrrpleMtnMajesty
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:04pmJesus was BODILY resurrected. It is NOT some wishful thinking.
Report Post »Over 500 people SAW him AFTER His resurrection.
TONS more evidence, but people whose minds are made up don’t care about evidence.
Read Josh’s book “EVIDENCE that demands a VERDICT”
He speaks much better than I.
IF you choose to live like there is no God -you had better be SURE you are right.
Yeshua, Jesus, is our Jewish Savior predicted over and over since Genesis through
Revelation.
PS In my youth, I read extensively, including other faiths, exploring in detail their claims
against the Bible. I not only am now convinced, I’m convinced that the Bible is the unerrant
Word of God. Take it, leave it, but know the consequences as salvation is a FREE gift, but
one you have to willingly ACCEPT. That’s where the crusades, and many such actions got it wrong.
They were NOT acting in accordance with scripture. You cannot be FORCED to convert. IT HAS
to be an act of FREE WILL; anything other than that is INVALID.
Baruch Hashem!!
SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:22pm@ PURRRPLEMTNMAJESTY- The Bible says: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
There is no such thing as a bodily resurrection. There’s a bodily resuscitation (Lazarus), but not a bodily resurrection. In order to be resurrected you have to die a physical death, and your soul has to leave your body. The two go hand-in-hand. You can’t have one, without the other. Just like you can’t have a marriage engagement without a ring and a date. So it is with a resurrection. You’ve got to have death and the soul must leave the body.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:45pmSadducees denied a bodily ressuerection as well. The biblical evidence and doctrines are VERY clear unless you want to purposely twist them.
14 and aif Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 1 Co
9 And behold, Jesus met them 1and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. Matt 28 (why did they worship someone who didn’t die and ressurect?)
“And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have,” (Luke 24:38-39). I have already debunked your “swoon theory” so we clearly see Jesus was raised from the dead in his literal physical form.
“Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body,” (John 2:19-21)
Thank you….
Report Post »nonofmybiznez
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:53pmSurhansurhan…How do you know? There are lots of things we think we know. But there are many things that are unexplained. Belief in God is based on faith. Sometimes you just have to believe he can do anything…
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:02pmSleazy hippo, he IS trying to twist words. Don’t fall for his posts. He’s here to stay, get used to it y’all
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:44pm@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- You left out a very important part in 1 Corinthians 15. Not to worry. I’ve got your back.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is buried in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is buried in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is buried in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is buried a natural body; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:49pm@ NONOFMYBIZNEZ- Because the Bible tells me so. You may have missed it, but I didn’t.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:04pm@ SURHAN…..I purposely left that out hoping you would bring it up my friend, but no worries I got your back….
Paul is not stating that there are two separate bodies to each person, the physical and the spiritual and that after the physical one dies, the second and different spirit body takes over. Rather, when referencing the same body, he states, “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body,” (v. 44). The “it” is referring to the same body in both clauses, not separate and different ones. This same body becomes a resurrected body — which is the spiritual body to which He is referring. In other words, the spiritual body is the very same body he previously had, though it had been changed into a spiritual one.
Our perishable and mortal bodies put on the imperishable and immortal aspects of the spiritual body which is the physically resurrected and changed body of the believer. Jesus was simply the first fruits of this resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20). Therefore, we can see that our future resurrected bodies will be spiritual bodies. But, those spiritual bodies are in fact physical, the same bodies we have now, only glorified. Otherwise, there is no resurrection. CONT….
Report Post »nonofmybiznez
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:06pmSurhansurhan, please let me know where in the Bible so I may read it? Thank you.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:15pm@ SURHAN….And Jesus lied when he said he would raise his body after 3 days in John 2:19..The phrase “I will raise” is translated from the single Greek word “egeiro.“ ”Egeiro” is the future, active, indicative, 1st-person singular. The active voice in Greek designates who is performing the action. In this case, since it is first person, singular (“I”), Jesus is saying that He Himself would perform the action of the resurrection. This is precisely what the Greek says. Thank you…
@ CABRITO…Have no fear my friend, I know who SURHAN is and have debated him before. While I completely agree with you that he is a dishonest debator and twists very straight forward scripture meanings to fit his illogical agruments I want many others to see the difference between the presentation of truth in a very logical and reasonable form and those who simply twist and distort clear meanings and reason to justify their own illogical positions. The purpose isn’t so much for SURHAN as it is for others who will read the thread. It is obvious to any clear thinking person that he is disingenuous in his argumentation and commits many logical fallacies from straw man, to equivocation, to argmentation from ignorance, to circular reasoning, to subjectivist fallacy. When distortions and mischaracterizations are exposed it demonstrates the shaky ground any arguments rests upon. Take care my friend and God bless you….
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:34pm@ NONOFMYBIZNEZ- 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is buried in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is buried in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is buried in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is buried a natural body; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
Luke 20:35-36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are EQUAL UNTO THE ANGELS; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
As you know, it is an axiomatic truth, that angels do not have flesh and bones, they are spirits! Jesus says in Luke:
Luke 24:36-37 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Jesus is proving to them that he is not what they’re thinking. That he is not resurrected! That he is alive! Flesh and bones standing right there, before their very eye’s!
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:48pm“Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body,” (John 2:19-21)
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:57pm1 Co 15
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your s
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:40am@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- Jesus said in the book of Matthew:
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
As you can see the time factor is 3 days and 3 nights. We are told that this crucifixion took place on a Friday night. Jesus was taken off the cross on the same night and placed in the tomb.
If we assume he was dead Friday night. He could have come out of the tomb Saturday morning, but the Bible doesn’t say that, so I wont say that. So, let us say he was still dead on Saturday morning. He could have come out Saturday night, but the Bible doesn’t say that, so, I wont say that. So, if we assume he was still dead Saturday night. He could have come out of the tomb Sunday morning.
Ah yes, that is exactly what Jesus did! He came out of the tomb Sunday morning!
John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
So, if you count the number of days and nights like Jesus did. Jesus divided the day from the night in the scripture. All you get is 2 nights and 1 day. Even Einstein can’t help you with this one. As you can see the scripture is not fulfilled.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 9:17am@ SURHAN…Obviously you lack knowledge of how Jewish people at that time counted days. They counted the day something happened in until 6 O clcok in the evening so Friday was day 1 since jesus died at about 3pm as the bible clearly states, Saturday was day 2 and Sunday was day 3 since he rose that morning. Therefore we have a total of 3 days and on the third day he rose just like it was prophesied. So thank you for admiting that the prophecy of Jonah was dead on according to any Jewish observer of the day. Try again my friend…Thank you…..
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 9:20amBTW, I don’t need Einstein, he was wrong about many things. I have the ones words, who created all knowledge, I find them to be quite sufficient in this case. Thank you…
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:59pm@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- I guess it’s lucky for me I have the Bible to guide me. I don’t need some phony website to tell me what I already know. It has been my experience when you Christians can’t prove your point with the Bible, you’ll throw that thing down and pull up a website in a minute.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The Jews and the Muslims reckon time the same way. Day part, and night part. You say Jesus died at 3:00 pm. Okay, I wont argue with that. Golgotha is about 5 miles outside of Jerusalem. Jesus’ secret disciples had to walk back into town to go to Pilate to see if they could take Jesus down from the cross. It probably took them about 1.5 hours to walk that distance.
I’m sure Pontius Pilate was not just sitting there waiting for these people to return to ask if they could have the body. I’m sure they probably had to wait at least an hour maybe more to see him. It probably took Pilate another 1/2 hour or so to make up his mind, and once he agreed they could have Jesus’ body it probably took them another 1.5 hours to get back out to where Jesus was.
Now they’ve got to take down the body and apply the 100 pounds of medicine (John 19:39) which takes about 2 hours. So, as you can see there’s no way Jesus could have been in the tomb during the day.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 4:10pm@ SURHAN….First do I spy a hint of hypocrisy in your post? Ah, I think I do when I lQQk at your reply about the Filipinos from the Daily Mail. Secondly, not sure why you use the bible at all since yous stated it was “full on contradictions” (It really does no good to use something if you mishandle its meaning anyway). Thirdly, you agian, rely on faulty exegesis when you interpret the belly of the whale to mean a literal tomb instead of simply what it was intended to picture—death. If you were being judged for your logical gymnastics you would score pretty low for all the misteps you have made in asserting your points my friend. Again, you keep stating how you have the bible only to use it to disprove its most central claims, all the while stating it is full of contradictions anytime I clearly rebutt what you have erroneously asserted the bible teaches. Do you see the illogical irony of your position yet my friend? Of course I know how you will answer, I’m just thankful that others are able to witness for themselves our discourse. Again thank you for your time….
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 5:49pm@ SURHAN…I can’t believe that it took me this long to figure it out, but I finally realized that you are using Deedat’s argument about Jonah. Can’t believe I missed it at first. Now it makes much more sense why you are unaware of the debunked nature of some of your arguments and why they are rooted in very poor exegesis and lacking in cultural and historical knowledge of the 1st century jew. Again, here is a cite exposing the faulty logic of criticisms from the line of reasoning regarding the “sign of Jonah” and Jesus burial and resurrection. Thank you….
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/jonah.html
@ DLV…the site listed above is great it clearly demonstrates where SURHAN has gotten his arguments from (Deedat and a couple of his older books he had published, Resurrection or Resuscitation? and What was the Sign of Jonah) and what the errors are at their core. Hope it adds to your library and it will explain a lot of where SURHAN is coming from. Be blessed….
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 9:25pmSLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- How does that change anything we’ve been talking about?
Report Post »tmb2bjb
Posted on September 3, 2012 at 12:32amWhen I read all of these anti-Christian posts the following scriptures comes to mind…Jude 1:18-20
18 They told you beforehand, In the last days (in the end time) there will be scoffers [who seek to gratify their own unholy desires], following after their own ungodly passions.
19 It is these who are [agitators] setting up distinctions and causing divisions—merely sensual [creatures, carnal, worldly-minded people], devoid of the [Holy] Spirit and destitute of any higher spiritual life.
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [[a]make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit;
1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
There really is nothing left to say, except they eyes of the non-believer are blinded to the truth and will never understand until they are sold out to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 3, 2012 at 8:24am@ TMB2BJB- Glorious Qur’an 5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save one God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
(5:74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messenger (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat food. See how they are turned away!
Report Post »avgconservative
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 3:26pmJust reading this confirms the wide and narrow gates.
Report Post »v15
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:05pmAfter reading all of the comments below, I don’t think anyone really knows anything about God. I don’t pretend to know but I am sick of people using god and hell as a weapon against others.
Report Post »loriann12
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:43pmI had multiple abusers as a child. Would I change it? I’m not sure, it’s made me who I am. Would I wish it on my worst enemy? No. But, like I said, it’s made me who I am. I’ve forgiven my abusers. One is dead and the other is serving life in prison. There is a God, and even before I believed in him, he was holding my hand and giving me mechanisms to cope with what was going on. I firmly believe he was there crying with me. I, too, was agnostic (prove it and I’ll believe it) as a teen. I had a loving (healthy) uncle who debated with me on God’s creation and planted the first seed. I didn’t get saved until I was 29, 25 years after the abuse started. There is a God, and there is a Hell. We don’t know if someone comes to Christ with their dying breath or not. But all deserve forgiveness from God if they ask. As for me, to not forgive hurt me more than it hurt them.
Report Post »v15
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 7:43pm@Loriann, if you were able to go back in time to prevent from being molested you’re still undecided on if being molested is a good or bad thing? That’s crazy! anyways, glad you seem at peace now!
SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 7:57pm@ LORIANN….First, let me say I’m terrible sorry for what you have suffered. It grieves my heart to know of all the little ones that are harmed at the hands of the evil one. Secondly, I want to commend you for giving off the aroma of Christ. What a flavor of grace and mercy you displayed in your post. Revelation says that we will overcome the evil one by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. You obviously have the victory. May God bless you and make you fruitful in the “land” of your affliction as he did Joseph. For what Satan meant to destroy you with, God is making you a powerful tool unto salvation for those that would hear you. I often debate the truth here on this site with those who wouldn’t call Jesus Lord and Savior (and that’s okay), but nothing displays the power of the Gospel like someone who is a walking example of the power of forgiveness and redmeption. Thank you again and be blessed my friend….
Report Post »china clipper
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 3:12pmIt’s creepy about the molestation. It’s weird that everyone seems to have been victims of child molestation.
Report Post »jbcheesehead
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:44pmGod promises that His Word will not return unto Him void. Besides the Word of God, I would recommend that all soul winners study a copy of “Evidence That Demands A Verdict”. It‘s the best tool to win intelligent skeptics to Jesus I’ve ever seen. Josh can cover all sides of an argument like C.S. Lewis. I had no idea he had suffered so as a chile. That and knowing the life he has lead are extreme evidence of freedom at the foot of the cross! I will buy this book immediately.
Report Post »truthnstuff
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:44pmHmmmmmmm…isn’t it interesting that everyone seems to be coming out of the woodwork claiming abuse as a child.
When the bandwagon seems to be going by so many want to jump on it. Just sayin.Nothing garners attention like sympathy and victimization.
SATAN
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:19pm@truthnstuff
Report Post »You make even me vomit.
The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 4:08pmSup Stan. What’s the weather like down there?
Report Post »MajorLeagueInfidel
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:10pmI was expecting him to say “Its HOT its DAMN HOT.”
Report Post »Alessandre
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:23pmhow does one “come out of the woodwork” while a victimized child, particularly when there’s no one willing to listen or if one is too young to express what is happening? can you begin to imagine what it’s like to grow up w/ such a secret? have you any idea how many years it takes before one can get past shame & speak? do you know what it’s like to live a “normal” life w/ your friends thinking you’re fine, if intense & then go home where the only escape from memory is vegging out or fantasy that eventually becomes reliving the abuse, trying to understand or rework it so that it’s bearable? can you imagine what it means to live w/ guilt & the conviction that you deserved such treatment?
You Have No Idea What You Are “Just Saying”! NONE!
Learn! Read McDowell’s book. Read Dawn Eden’s, My Peace I Give You: Healing Sexual Wounds With the Help of the Saints. Read my blog (http://heirsinhope.blogspot.com/). Read some of the stories of the 1 in 4 women & 1 in 6 men who were sexually abused as children. (There are a lot of us.) Learn before you glibly write about abuse survivors who coming out of the woodwork now. We’re not jumping on the latest bandwagon. We’ve finally reached the age & maturity when we can speak. The world is finally ready to listen & believe. It’s time for the scandal to come out: Adults Frequently Abuse Children. Ditto Adolescents. Thank God McDowell survived & found Christ. He is the only hope for healing.
Report Post »GlennaBeckski
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:50pm@ TRUTH
Report Post »Speaking as one who unfortunately experienced molestation as a young girl, as did my daughter when she was 5.. children are confused and ashamed AND shamed into not telling anyone.
I can only hope based on your attitude you don’t have any children. You don’t sound like someone they would run to, to confide in.
nonofmybiznez
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:04pmDepravity is prevalent, silence only hides it. Let evil see the bright sunshine and you will see the light.
Report Post »GoodStuff
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:04pmHis mom is just as sick as his abuseres.
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:58pmI honestly would have punched anyone who didn’t believe him or attempted to keep it hush hush.
Report Post »ThriCeSLewis
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:02pmShadowlands starring Anthony Hopkins is another powerful biopic with a similar theme. It’s about British Christian philosopher/author CS Lewis’s journey to understanding the heart of God through pain and suffering. He became an atheist after his mom died of cancer when he was a boy. He remained self-protectively single, consumed with academia until old age when he married New Yorker Joy Davidman who died of cancer soon after. Brutal. He coined the phrase “Pain is God’s megaphone to rouse a deaf world” I had no clue Josh McDowell had a similarly dark-toned childhood (very different shape of course). Awesome to see God reclaim what man has stolen…
Report Post »Pontiac
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:49pm[Pain is God’s megaphone to rouse a deaf world]
Report Post »Yup, I’m so going to worship that. Nothing like religion induced endorphin releases to numb the pain and warp the mind.
The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 4:18pmPain is necessary. Without the body communicating pain to the brain, we could not survive.
There is a little girl with a rare disorder that leaves her immune to pain, and so she must be watched 24 hours a day. Sad life.
But how can God give a debilitating illness to a little girl? If you believe in evolution, you have to accept that mutations can often be good. (sickle cell for example) without mutations, well, Rich Deem said it better than I can:
“The error rate for copying DNA is actually quite small. Human genomic mutation is among the lowest of all eukaryotes,28 estimated to be ~2.2×10-9 per base per generation.29 The rate of DNA replication is ~60 bases/sec, which is very fast. If it were not that fast, then cells would not reproduce fast enough for humans to even exist. There is a trade-off in speed vs. accuracy. For example, bacteria replicate at ~500 bases/sec, but have an error rate ~1×10-8 per base.30 So, the ten-fold increase in speed for bacteria results in a 10-fold decrease in accuracy. Given the laws of physics and the nature of quantum events, it is not possible to design a biological machine that operates with 100% accuracy. In fact, many biological systems are operating right up to the maximum theoretical limits. So, given the laws of physics, it is not possible to create an organism that does not possess at least a small mutation rate. Therefore, genetic mutation and disorders are inevitable for any reproducing biological species.”
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 4:23pmThis is my favorite article by Rich Deem,
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html#natural
A must read. This man is truly one of, if not, the most wise men on the Internet.
Report Post »Alessandre
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:40pm@Pontiac, we don’t worship pain or the way God uses it but we know when we have pain, God wants our attention. just as certain chest pain is a message to get to an ER, all pain is a message from God. God doesn’t cause pain. pain is caused by sin & not necessarily the sin of the person in pain: an innocent person may be hit by a drunk driver. the innocent person will still feel pain though not at fault. but God still uses that pain, often in surprising ways. faith makes that clear. I know you don‘t have faith but I’ll give you one example from my life. I pray it helps.
my parents were killed when I was about 5. the pain of losing them was so great, I wanted to die & be w/ them in heaven. I tried killing myself but the methods I used hadn’t worked so, by the age of 7, I began taking pills. my foster family was abusive & about the same time, my foster father began beating me. I hated the pain & mistreatment & fought back. planning ways to fight & carrying them out, I forgot about killing myself: when I was 7 1/2, my foster mother became very ill. suddenly, there was a great deal of deadly medication available. years later, I realized God had used the pain he allowed my foster father to inflict on me to distract me from my foster mother’s medication & save my life. I don’t support child abuse for suicide prevention but I know, God used a horrible sin & crime to distract me & keep me alive. He knew what He was doing & I am so glad He used pain & saved me.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:38pm@ THE CABRITO….thanks for the link. This is in essence the argument that CS Lewis makes in the problem of pain as well..Never hurts to keep adding to the library. God bless….
Report Post »Pontiac
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 1:03pmWell I see walls of text but didn‘t bother reading them because they’re likely nothing more than apologetic word salads. Speaking for god is to speak as god and you people seem to enjoy speaking as god. God kills Jobs family in a bet with the devil. From that alone one can determine that the christian god, real or not, is an ***** unworthy of worship. Your human sacrifice to himself to save yourselves from himself is one of the longest running ridiculous and absurd myths out there.
Report Post »Lone Ranger
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:59amJosh McDowell is the reason I became a Christian. I just couldn’t argue with his logic.
Report Post »american_rose_126
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:47amI will never understand or be able to explain this side of heaven why God allows some things–and then prevents others–often seeming to allow the most horrific…things I’ve been spared–but far worse that I have endured…of course–no one ever knows just how much they have been spared…but wow–can I ever relate to this man’s story! My own family treated me so badly as well…the disbelief–and then of course–laying the blame on me…multiplying the pain exponentially. And they somehow felt righteous in it…crazy! But God’s Love has done wonders to heal my heart…He’s been my Best Friend all along…every dark and painful night–every moment when I felt utterly abandoned. And He has done the same for the sweet love of my life–a great man who also endured the unimaginable…we heal each other with the Love of God.
Report Post »jman-6
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:25pmGreat post but remember GOD doesn’t cause any evil, when we sin we open ourselves up to attacks from the enemy.
Report Post »nonwinger
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:25pmJMAN-6: Who do you think created evil?
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:05pm@ NONWINGER….That’s easy, God’s creation, specifically Satan and men created evil. Thank for the inquiry. Just in case you dispute this relatively simple answer i will elaborate. If I as a parent have a child and I do all things good for that child and they then decide of their own will to do somehting evil (rob, kill, rape, etc) does the onous fall to me for having the child that then chose to do evil of their own will and volition? Of course not. The entity that choses to do evil is the one culpable. God can use evil in a manner of speaking and bring about good just as in the story of Joseph an dhis brothers, but he did not compel Joseph’s brothers to do evil. Thank you….
Report Post »Small World
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:11amI do believe in God. Many times I think how could God let such things take place.Why did God not send someone to save him? Children and animals need safety and protection. We need to teach our children self defense.God bless him.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:27amThings happen a certain way so that man can glorify God. Case in point he was molested by a men (actually a singular word also as deer and deer) who was looking to increase his own fruit by stealing it from a child. Such in the case of the molester being worth 10 Shekels wanting to increase his Shekels by stealing them from a child – which actually removes more Shekels from the molester causing the molester to hunger for more molestations (such as the case with Sandusky). His dad (not going to say Father because we all only have one Father) was an alcoholic because his dad wanted to make himself into a Eunuch, because of the pain the earth is inflicting, and his dad knew by God suicide is wrong – so instead he drank.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:42amAs a people (as a society) you haven’t been living in Liberty – therefore a dad leaves his family – a dad becomes a drunkard – to extend a type of Liberty for the children to learn without hands on manipulation. Truly I say to you no men are fatherless. The lack of Liberty in America reflects itself in dadless families.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:47am@ WATERSRPEOPLE- Are you saying the God of Christianity is so narcissistic to get glory that He would allow a little boy to be molested over and over again so that that little boy will grow into a man and give God the glory?!
Is that your idea of a Compassionate, Merciful, and Beneficent God?!
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:53amSurhanSurhan,
Report Post »No not the God of Christianity – the God of all. You were created for his glory – not the other way around. Or you can always just be plagued by some rotten disease if you want to keep on arguing.
watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:00pmSurhanSurhan,
Report Post »When immortality is achievable, then what pain is there really? perhaps you just didn’t work that hard on the alter in your past lives whereby you are just the walking dead.
SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:22pm@ WATERSRPEOPLE- Your idea of God is from a Christian perspective. Its narrow minded and opinionated. It is not a true representation of who/what God really is.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:33pmSurhanSurhan,
Report Post »Oh alright, have a good day. I have no interest in forcing you to understand, but you should be informed you stand in the way of the Saints who are lively.
Platonician
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 3:56pm“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.”
God couldn’t send anyone to save him, because God is not the powerful being some imagine he is. He is not a superhero. God is feeble, made of spirit alone, like beauty, civilization or goodness. God is the ultimate human consolation that’s his reality. . That‘s what atheists don’t understand, God is easy to destroy or deny, like a flower one can totally burn it, but try to create one out of nothing.
The paradox is that thanks to such being, made of pure spirit, a WORD, humanity achieved charity, compassion, and civilization. The pure spirituality, God, operates in the world thought our acts and in our souls bringing comfort, and as such there is nothing more powerful.
Report Post »gsk
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 4:55pm@SurhanSurhan: you have it backwards. God is so humble that he would come and suffer with a little boy at the hands of an alcoholic father, an abusive farmhand, and a helpless mother. He’s also borne your darkest moments, though you don’t acknowledge the gift. Your choice, friend.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:36pm@ GSK- You’re the one that has it wrong. The Bible teaches that God doesn’t give us more than WE can bear. God knows that we are His servants. When we’re born we come from Allah, and when we die we go back to Allah.
God does not take on the form of a human being, neither metaphorically nor spiritually. We all must bear our OWN burdens. We will be judged on how WE handle those burdens.
The American slave was treated to way more abuse at the hands of his Christian slave master, more than Josh McDowell will ever know. Everyone has a story.
Report Post »gsk
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:03pm@SurhanSurhan: fine, you’re a Muslim, I understand. Your religion has no theology of grace. We can’t do anything without the grace of God. We prevail by means of His strength, not our own. A fundamental difference between our two faiths is the need for humility, which God taught through the Incarnation.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 6:37pm@ GSK- Your religion teaches grace and incarnation, and they are great platitudes, but they are just that, platitudes.
The Bible teaches that WE must bear our own sins and burdens:
Ezekiel 18:20-21 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
So, even with grace and incarnation you still must keep ALL the statues and do that which is lawful and right to get into heaven.
It is beneath the dignity of God, to take on the form of a human being.
gsk
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:13pmGod, as Person, offers Himself as Redeemer. Man, as person, is invited to make a free will response to that offer, which is echoed in a life of gratitude and virtue. The Incarnation is a matter of faith which Christians believe, insults not withstanding, and in that faith, personhood confers dignity.
All of this is predicated on the value of humility, which you will not attribute to God. OK, but the Christian worldview hinges on that, not the narcissism that you initially posited.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:20pm@ SURHAN….I have debated many Muslims and I know your many tactics in arguing for your faith, but I will agree with you on this it is defintely below the diginity of God to become a man. However, that is exactly what he did because he loves us so much that he “stoops down to make us great” as the bible states. All the OT is a picture of Jesus (Son of God and Son of man) dying on the cross from the picture of Adam and Eve’s cration, to Noah’s ark, to Jospeh and his brothers, to Jonah (which we have debated before), to David and Goliath, to Sampson at the end of his life, to David and Saul, to Hosea nad Gomer, to Caiphas the high priests prophecy, to Cain killing Abel, to Abraham and Isaac on the mountain, to Daniel in the lion’s den, to bronze serpent, to the prodigal son story where the “fatted calf” (Jesus) is killed, to Is 53, to Psalm 22 and on and on I could for pages of all the typology of Jesus and what he would do. namely die and redeem the people of God. It is arrogance on the part of men to think that we can somehow add to the work of Christ. It is the pride of men that think they can be “good enough” to enter into the presence of a Holy and perfect God. That is the reason Jesus told the Pharisees that they would die in their sin because they would not humble themselves and confess their inability to walk righteously before God. For if you break just one part of the law, then your are a lawbreaker and have earned condemnation, for those wages are dea
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:45pm@ GSK- I stand by what I said in my earlier statement. Christians believe in incarnation and they/you believe we are made in the image of God. That is a narcissistic view point. Which is not shared by any other religious group. Not even the Jews.
God Almighty says in the Glorious Qur’an, there is nothing at ALL like unto Him.
The Bible says: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
There’s no proof from the Bible that Jesus said God and I are one and the same.
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:50pmYou do realize jihad can take many forms, correct? You are witnessing it right now.
Surah 9:5
“When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.”
“wherever” includes the Internet. Trolling/being belligerent are legitimate cyber jihad tactics. This user, Surhan, has many times trolled people into submission with hook and bait incendiary posts such as these. (which is what “Islam” translates to, submission)
I know I can’t make you guys do anything, but I URGE you to save yourself the agony of talking to this Surhan fellow. There is truly no chance for middle ground with him. This is jihad, remember that! I hate to see these boards enveloped in flame wars, so please, do not associate with him from now on. He did not sign up to discuss stories, he signed up to antagonize and aggravate. You cannot win.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:17pmGenesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
Report Post »in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:20pmGenesis 9:6
Report Post »“Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:02pm@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- and @ GSK- Do you see what I mean about this narcissism I was talking about earlier. Sleazyhippos said: ” However, that is exactly what he did because he loves us so much that he “stoops down to make us great” as the bible states.”
It does not benefit God to love His servants. It benefits us if we love Him! He will still be God regardless. Our job is to get into His good graces so that we might get another life.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:06pm@ THE_CABRITO_GOAT- You’ve anointed yourself the savior for The Blaze. They‘re too stupid to catch on to me so you’ve made it your mission to ferret me out. Do you have a halo like Jesus?
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:26pm@ SURHAN…..You may have your opinion based in faulty human reasoning sir, I will stick with what Jesus himself stated in John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 3:35 “35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”
35 You make your saving help my shield,
and your right hand sustains me;
your help has made me great. Pslam 18
Try lQQking at the story of King David and Mephibosheth in 2 Samuel. It is God’s picture of his love for the crippled (by sin) believer. David is the typology of Christ/God and mephibosheth is every repentant child of God. You have your opinion and I have the testimony of God. Thank you…..
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:50pm@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- I laugh at you sir/ma’am. Everything I’ve given you is supported by Bible scripture.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:09pm@ SURHAN….laugh away…”Our job is to get into His good graces so that we might get another life.” UNBIBLICAL….
15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of [n]the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of [o]the Law; since by the works of [p]the Law no [q]flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through [r]the Law I died to [s]the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and [t]the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through [u]the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Galations 2
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:36amSleazy- I realize he is frustrating, I don’t understand how someone could say things like this and not realize all the mistakes they are making. The atheists we debate have more intellectual honesty.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:41am@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- Un-Biblical?! It’s 100% Biblical.
James 2:17-23 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:56am@ DLV- If a mistake is made, the Bible made it because I sure didn’t. Everything I gave you came straight from the Bible. You guys need to reread your Bible.
Report Post »Platonician
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 6:19am@surhansurhan ”Our job is to get into His good graces so that we might get another life.” That’s what your depraved religion, Islam, teaches to you and your zombie peers, the ones that trying to accomplish that “job” end up with bomb suppositories in the name of the primitive intellectual abomination you call allah. LOL. Please you too, do “the job” as son as possible. Your virgins are waiting for you, they look like Michelle Obama.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 7:49am@ PLATONICIAN- You want me dead because we disagree on the concept of God: “the ones that trying to accomplish that “job” end up with bomb suppositories in the name of the primitive intellectual abomination you call allah. LOL. Please you too, do “the job” as son as possible.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but is that what your God teaches you to do to your enemy? To wish death upon them?
You’re not a very good Christian. You totally ignore the teachings of your God/Lord.
Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Matthew 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly.
Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too.
Matthew 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
Which one of these does your comment fall under?
You said: “Your virgins are waiting for you, they look like Michelle Obama.”
Again, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Michelle Obama a child of God too? But hey, At least your mother wont be one of the virgins. We know she had a mouth full of sex organs…read between the line…intellectual!
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 9:09amJames says plainly so to FAITH without works is also dead. His point is that TRUE faith, SAVING faith produces good fruit. You know the fruit in keeping with repentance mentioned all over the place?
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph…You once again have practiced poor hermeneutics to support your erroneous position. Thank you…
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 11:02amSur- everything you said is from the bible but you’re doing a nice job of twisting to fit your argument making it not from the bible. Me and everyone else here can see right through you. If you were really making any progress and brought up any legitimate points people would say “Ya you know I never thought of that.” I’ve said something like that to atheists before which caused me to study and know my stuff better. All of your points are easily deconstructed and it‘s simply depressing to see someone who can’t see how weak their argument is. I’ll say it again atheists have better arguments and bring stronger points, they make me think harder although they can be more insulting at times. With you it’s like watching a fly get caught in a web, struggling thinking if he just struggles hard enough he will get out…..
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 11:05am“These 4 individuals do not have a book in the Bible. Their story has been conveniently left out. If we had their story we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If these 4 had seen signs of life in Jesus, they were not got to yell out, hey, he’s still alive! No, they would take him to a safe place for treatment. The tomb!”
Report Post »There are no written records from them to date. A. They didn’t write down what they saw. B. They did but it didn’t survive time. Either way, it doesn’t matter literally your entire argument on both posts is speculation and wishful thinking. I’ll stick with the people who saw jesus die and resurrect. Thanks rather than you who has no proof that Jesus was alive just a lot of what could have happened. Lame!
SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:53pmSLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- All you did was find a scripture that you liked that contradicted James (which is easy to do since the Bible is full of contradictions) and you used it. Then you found a word that you like and used it to describe what you think I’m doing.
If you think your faith alone is good enough to get you into heaven, go for it. James is the brother of Jesus he aught to know what his brother taught him.
Remember, you said it was not Biblical, as you can see, it is. Are you practicing Biblical exegesis?
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 1:30pm@ DLV- You said: “There are no written records from them to date. A. They didn’t write down what they saw. B. They did but it didn’t survive time.”
Where are you going here?! First you say there are no written records. Then you say they didn’t write anything down. And then there’s the, they did but it didn’t survive theory. You’re all over the map!
You say: “Either way, it doesn’t matter literally your entire argument on both posts is speculation and wishful thinking. I’ll stick with the people who saw jesus die and resurrect. Thanks rather than you who has no proof that Jesus was alive just a lot of what could have happened.”
You don’t have an eyewitness account to what happened that day at Calvary! The disciples were not there, the Bible says:
Mark 14:50 THEY ALL FORSOOK HIM AND FLED!
They were not eyewitness to the events that took place. They were earwitness, they had heard what others said about it, but they did not witness it.
We know Jesus was still alive and had not died because of the behavior of Mary Magdalena, the centurion, and Pontius Pilate. The Bible says:
John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
They used this to heal the wounds Jesus had incurred. Jesus weighed about a hundred and sixty pounds. With this medicine on him that makes him about 260 pounds…what is Mary…
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 1:53pm@ SURHAN….The bible has NO contradictions. People who cannot interpret meanings correctly may have contradictions, but if one just practices the simple rules of hermeneutics, which is a scholarly discipline well understood and accepted by all whether believer or unbeliever, then the meanings actually become amazingly straightforward. Such is the case in the Scripture I posted which is very black and white on the issue. You simply fail to understand who James was writing to and for what purpose. He was illustrating that there are very obvious signs (deeds) that accompany those who truly have saving faith. This lines up exactly with Jesus when he talked of the end of the age and many will come and say Lord Lord, did we not DO this and did we not DO that and he will plainly tell them depart from me for I never knew you. The bible must be understood in context and understand the meaning that the original author intended, not to take something out of context twist it to your meaning and make it fit what you want it to read, that is called isogesis and is faulty and illogical. Paul had to rebuke Peter because he began pulling away from the gentiles when men that came from James (brother of Jesus) arrived, so James words are no more elevated than Paul (given the hand of fellowship) as both were inspired to write what they did by the Holy Spirit. You simply are not intellectually honest nor are you practicing good exegesis when stating what you have asserted. Thank you…
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:04pm@ DLV- …going to do with this 260 pound dead body? Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus. I’m asking John, why did she go there? Or, let’s put another of your witnesses on the stand, Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark, tell us – why did Mary go there?
And Mark tells us, “She went to anoint Him.” Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is ‘massahah’ from which we get the word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for both Arabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, to anoint.
I’m asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? And the answer is no. I say to you Christians, do you massage dead bodies after three days? Do you? The answer is no. We Muslims are the closest to the Jew in our ceremony of law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies after three days? The answer is no. Then why would they want to go and massage a dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours, you know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells, the rotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three days’ time the body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting body when you massage it falls to pieces.
Why would she want to go and massage a dead, rotten body unless she was looking for a live person? She must have seen signs of life in the limp body as it was being taken down from the cross.
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 3:19pmYou don’t have an eyewitness account to what happened that day at Calvary! The disciples were not there, the Bible says:
Mark 14:50 THEY ALL FORSOOK HIM AND FLED!
They were not eyewitness to the events that took place. They were earwitness, they had heard what others said about it, but they did not witness it.
We know Jesus was still alive and had not died because of the behavior of Mary Magdalena, the centurion, and Pontius Pilate. The Bible says:
John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
They used this to heal the wounds Jesus had incurred. Jesus weighed about a hundred and sixty pounds. With this medicine on him that makes him about 260 pounds…what is Mary…
Here we go again on the intellectual dishonesty. I told you if you’re going to quote the bible on how Jesus was alive then I already closed the debate when it says he breathed his last. And then you use the bible again (wrongly) to argue your point. This entire argument is null and void. You offered theories of how Jesus still could have been alive but nothing from the actual time period or from the bible itself on how he was still alive. Nobody actually says Jesus is still alive. Only your wishful thinking. Cont.
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 3:20pmAs for why Mary didn‘t recognize Jesus I don’t know. I‘ll be the first to admit since the bible or other sources don’t say, I’m only SPECULATING! You just throw things out there and pretend they are facts with no evidence whatsoever. My guess is that he looked very different when he appeared to her so she didn’t recognize him right away, she wasn‘t expecting him to be back from the dead so her mind just closed off the possibility that it was Jesus or Jesus didn’t want her to recognize him until he said something key. Any of these theories are possible but none are fact. The gospel of John does say “she did not realize that it was Jesus.” This gives support to the theory he looked different but again nothing truly affirmative. Anyway, it doesn’t matter none offer any evidence as to the fact Jesus was alive.
Report Post »As for the whole anointing thing, it says embalming was not practiced by the jews. In my bible it specifically says she brought these spices out of devotion to Jesus. On Luke 23:56 it says in the notes “Yards of cloth and large quantities of spices were used in preparing the body for burial.” So here we know that the Jews do this to prepare for burial. As for why Mary did it that late and not the night of his sealing of the tomb.. I don’t know. More speculation from me at this point that perhaps when they initially sealed him away they were not fully done with him and Mary wanted to finish it. Cont.
DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 3:21pmThe bible does specifically say “they” she was not alone and they asked “who will move the stone?“ As if to say ”yeah, oops we had a bunch of people before to seal him in, how are we going to move the stone ourselves?” In any case, this is all really beside the point because none this is definitive proof that Jesus was alive and only more speculation. What is definitive is that the bible said Jesus was dead and that’s fine with me. Where we have a problem is when you don’t take the bible at its word when it says Jesus was dead and then you use it to help you balance your arguments elsewhere. That‘s called picking and choosing and it doesn’t work. All of this is speculation and no evidence for your side.
This intellectual dishonesty has reached its breaking point. You struck out fair and simple. I’m done here. Until you show some intellectual honesty, Sleazy and I gave you hard evidence against your position and you refuse to see it and keep throwing wishful ideas with no back-up. That’s not how things work and until you stop with this nonsense, I’m done responding. You are officially the first blazer to strikeout on me. Like I said before atheists seem to have intellectual honesty. So shape up and when you decide to have a real debate and actually try to LEARN THE TRUTH and not just find errors where none exist talk to me. Until that day, no one is going to bother responding to this nonsense. I would never do to the Koran what you are doing to the bible.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 5:52pm@ DLV….SURHAN is getting all of his arguments from a guy by the name of Deedat who published some books on these topics. Here is the link I posted up earlier, but didn’t know if you would catch it so here it is again.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/jonah.html
Report Post »okaaay
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:05amI have a ton of respect for this man. I first heard him speak when I was in high school and he is a very powerful speaker. He faced death threats on the University of Washington campus way back when for daring to speak out against atheism and if you haven’t read More Than a Carpenter, even if you aren’t a Christian, you should. I‘m glad to see that he’s still going strong after all these years of writing and speaking.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:57amSomeone should tell Mitt Romney that he isn’t going to be tilling the ground.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:10amIf you attempt to till the ground you will surely be thrown on the lake of fire.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:50amJesus spirit was lifted up, not his skin and bones. That’s why Revelation says when Jesus returns we will learn his new name.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:19amThat’s not what Jesus said: Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
This proves that Jesus did not die, and he was not resurrected.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:34amJohn 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him. Rabboni; which is to say master.
Report Post »John 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:36amSurely since John was the beloved disciple – his word means more than all the others combined.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:13pmI would think that Mary loving Jesus with all her soul, surely would have recognized Jesus’ voice when he said: Woman why weepest thou?
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 12:49pm@ WATERSRPEOPLE- Thanks for helping me make my point. Your original post stated that Jesus was a spirit. Now you’re saying he was in a physical form. Which is what I posted from Luke.
If Jesus is resurrected he would come back in a spirit form.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
Why didn’t Jesus want Mary Magdalene to touch him?! Probably, because he knew they if she did touch him, she would give him a bear hug, and it would hurt him. Especially, after the ordeal he had already gone through with the cat-of-nine tails. Because she was not expecting to see him.
John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken unto her.
She told the disciples that she spoke to a physical Jesus, and they didn’t believe her. They were not eyewitnesses to the events that had taken place at Calvary, but they had heard that Jesus was dead and had been resurrected. So, for them to hear now that he was alive, they didn’t believe her.
John 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
Jesus does this to prove to his disciples he is alive and in physical form not resurrected and in spirit form like they thought.
You Christians have gotten it wrong for 2000 years.
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:06pmSur- Reserructed in bodily form. What? Spirit form… what would that prove? nothing. Why didn’t Jesus want Mary to touch? Who knows but you’re just speculating with no basis. But then at other times he wanted his disciples to touch the holes in his hands to make sure it was really him. Keep in mind they carried a DEAD Jesus back to the tomb, not a barely living Jesus. Remember the Roman soldier stuck a spear in his side to make sure he was dead…. Gah why do I waste my time with people who have no idea what they are talking about. I think I‘ll trust a Christian’s understand of the bible over a Muslim’s understanding of it any day of the week considering that there motivation is to disprove it and not learn the truth.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:14pmWhy didn’t George Washington like people to touch him? Because you’re contaminated.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:25pmMary Magdalene was a woman – she was not women. Mary Magdalene was taken from Man, and not from men. Thus she was the light.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:34pmPeople like the idea of a resurrected physical Jesus, because they relish their own skin and bones, and they fear a spirit that can move like the wind.
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:39pm@ DLV- You can believe whom ever you wish to believe. It doesn’t matter to me. The Bible doesn’t say Jesus was killed by the sword that pierced his side. Isn’t that speculation on your part? The Bible says they saw Jesus was dead already. Did anyone exam him to see if he was really dead. Did anyone hold a mirror to Jesus’ nose to see if he had stopped breathing
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
“Forthwith” tells me that Jesus was still alive, that his circulatory system was still working. His heart was still pumping and blood was still circulating through his veins. He could have still been alive.
I can give you a story right now, where a doctor examined someone and declared that person dead and that person was still alive.
Of course it matters if Jesus is in a physical form or spirit form. The Bible writers thought it mattered so much that they added it to the Bible to let you know the difference between the two events.
watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 1:45pmSurhanSurhan,
Report Post »What are you trying to disprove? Don’t you know there are people alive who were there?
watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:03pmDon’t you know there are watchers whom are watching? Even the United States is turning into [a place of the skulls] like Gotha, and Americans are turning more Gothic on me. Do you not think I see, and others who have eyes to see see.
watersRpeople
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:05pmSurhanSurhan,
Report Post »I said I’m not going to force you, and I said have a good day which I meant.
SATAN
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:21pm@surhan
Report Post »Nice job, i couldn’t have twisted it better myself.
SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 2:30pm@ SATAN- Where are these so called twist you’re referring to?
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:06pmHeheheh Satan…you must have read The Screwtape Letters. Good book. Very satirical, dark humor, but also enlightening.
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:30pmSur- FacePalm* see this is the reason why I don‘t bother explaining things to people like you because no matter what you won’t understand and you keep giving weak responses. If you just be quiet for one moment and actually try to learn something then you might understand.
“You can believe whom ever you wish to believe. It doesn’t matter to me. The Bible doesn’t say Jesus was killed by the sword that pierced his side. Isn’t that speculation on your part?”
Well, it says he breathed his last when he prayed to God, so there he is dead END OF DISCUSSION. The spear in the side was just conformation. No it did not kill him, he was already dead.
“The Bible says they saw Jesus was dead already. Did anyone exam him to see if he was really dead. Did anyone hold a mirror to Jesus’ nose to see if he had stopped breathing”
Completely beside the point. You’re arguing that the bible makes the argument that Jesus was alive the whole time. And when Jesus was carried off the cross don’t you think people would have checked if he was alive? I mean if he was breathing, his heart was beating even if slowly they wouldnt have sealed him in a tomb. Honestly…. silliness. Cont.
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 5:31pm“Forthwith” tells me that Jesus was still alive, that his circulatory system was still working. His heart was still pumping and blood was still circulating through his veins. He could have still been alive.”
Orrrr it could mean that what it means by dictionary definition that it came forth immediately. Blood doesn’t just evaporate instantly when you die. It’s still in the body and if you stab a dead guy blood will still pour out. Lol come on now. Silliness.
“I can give you a story right now, where a doctor examined someone and declared that person dead and that person was still alive.”
I‘m sure that’s possible but that doesn’t mean it applies to this situation. If you’re doing a counter-argument you need to give an argument why he was never dead in the first place. So far there is no evidence that he was alive only your desperate wishful thinking. If you can bring me evidence in the bible or other outside sources from the time that say “Oh yeah, he was alive the whole time, the disciples are just idiots.” Then I’ll look into it. good luck. Not to mention that Jesus said on numerous occasions that he would die and rise again. Thtat’s a very big point in the bible.
“Of course it matters if Jesus is in a physical form or spirit form. The Bible writers thought it mattered so much that they added it to the Bible to let you know the difference between the two events.”
I’m not even going to bother addressing this. It’s so silly. You gave me my joke
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 7:59pm@ DLV- You said: “Well, it says he breathed his last when he prayed to God, so there he is dead END OF DISCUSSION.”
I love how you Christians like to have the last word. I get this every time I have a discussion with one of you. Unfortunately, it is not the end of discussion. Jesus was anywhere from 8 to 10 feet off the ground in the air on the cross. How could anyone be sure he was dead from where they were standing, looking up at him? He could have just, passed out from the shock that he had just endured with the cat-o-nine tails.
You said: “Completely beside the point.” No, that’s exactly the point.
You said: ” And when Jesus was carried off the cross don’t you think people would have checked if he was alive?”
Yes, I do think people would have checked to see if he was alive.
Because of the eclipse, earth quake, and thunderstorm the crowd that had gathered to watch the events dispersed.
That left 4 people to take down the body of Jesus. The Bible says Joseph of Arimathea was there, Nicodemus was there, the centurion that had pierced Jesus’ side was there, and Mary Magdalena was there.
These 4 individuals do not have a book in the Bible. Their story has been conveniently left out. If we had their story we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If these 4 had seen signs of life in Jesus, they were not got to yell out, hey, he’s still alive! No, they would take him to a safe place for treatment. The tomb!
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:00pm@ DLV- The centurion that had pierced the side of Jesus, did accept Jesus as a man of God.
Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
He wanted to protect Jesus as well! So, he helped the others place Jesus in the tomb so they could get him out of sight of the Jews that had tried to kill him, and to treat his wounds. To them, the blood and water coming out of Jesus did not mean that Jesus was dead, to them he still could have been alive.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:28pmOh my not the swoon theory again. This old argument was dead and buried long ago.
I have neither the time, energy, or interest in engaging something that isn’t even worthy of entertaing it is so lacking in evidence and logical foundations, but here is a quick reference if anyone wants to brush up on why it is totally bogus. Thank you….
http://carm.org/swoon-theory
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:30pm@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- Stay away from those bogus websites and use the common since God gave a billy goat, and figure this out for yourself. No one is talking about who moved a stone.
Yes, people can walk after having been nailed to the cross. They do it each year in the Philippines.
Boy, 15, nailed to a cross as Filipinos whip and crucify themselves in gory Good Friday ritual
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-540453/Boy-15-nailed-cross-Filipinos-whip-crucify-gory-Good-Friday-ritual.html#ixzz25GrwPGxJ
“In the small village of Cutud, about 80 km (50 miles) north of Manila, men cried out as nails the size of pencils were driven into their hands and feet before they were hoisted up in the scorching heat. Nineteen were to go through the process.
For hours before the crucifixions lines of men, hooded and half naked, flayed their backs with bamboo whips and paddles tipped with broken glass. Blood splattered over the road.
No one has ever died during the rituals.”
As you can see from the story, no one has ever died during the rituals. Jesus did not die either. If there’s no death, can you really call this a crucifixion (means to die on the cross) or is it a crucifiction (not a real word spelling of the word. I just made it up for demonstration purposes)?
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:47pm@ SURHAN….do you really think your arguments are rooted in logic? I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but that is just silly. You just commited the logical fallacy of distraction. You did not desconstruct one logically based argument against your “swoon” theory. To my recollection none of the Filipino had a spear stuck into their side, hmmm? To suggest that the disciples and followers of Jesus did not state very clearly in ALL of scripture that Jesus was dead, buried, and ressurected (physically) is just disingenuous and is plain ridiculous with all due respect. To think that they with all the followers of Christ along with the Pharisees that never disputed his death were really that gullible is dancing awfully close to the fallacy of chronological snobbery. The Filipino crucifixions are NOTHING compared to the flogging (which 3 out of 4 people did not even survive Roman flogging), beatings and torture inflicted by the Romans at the cross. Please give me and all of us a break with the ridiculous claim that Jesus actually survived the cross. If he did then he was a liar when he said that he gave up his spirit and breathed his last. It makes your position lQQk weak and desperate. BTW you also committed the illogical mistake of genetic fallacy in your statement. Finally, you stated no one died in those rituals, that is because that was not the goal. The cross was the Roman form of execution, were they idiots that didn;t know how to kill people? Thank you….
Report Post »SurhanSurhan
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 12:41am@ SLEAZYHIPPOS ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING- Oh, I see, it was the spear that killed Jesus. Sense the Filipinos were not speared they did not die. So Jesus died from being pierced in the side (talk about un-biblical).
Jesus was in disguise after his post-crucifixion. The Bible says Mary Magdalena saw someone standing by whom she took to be the gardener.
John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Why did she take him to be the gardener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? No, she took him to be the gardener because he’s disguised as a gardener, and why is Jesus disguised as a gardener? Because he does not want to be apprehended by the Jews that tried to kill him.
If he was resurrected in spirit form he wouldn’t have to worry about hiding because he would be immortal.
Another ex. of disguise: The trip to Emmaus: Luke 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about 3 furlongs.
Luke 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Luke 24:But their eyes were holden that they did not know him.
Why didn’t they know him? Because Jesus was in disguise. He had not been resurrected. He was alive!
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 9:26am@ SURHAN….My response to your last post never appeared so suffice it to say I don’t have the time to debate someone who is intellectually dishonest in their presentation of “evidence”, but I will say this: If you believe that what the Filipions due is anything close to Roman flogging (3 out of every 4 men sentenced to be crucified did not even survive the flogging process) and if you believe that the Romans did not know how to kill prisoners sentenced to death after thousands of successful attempts prior to Jesus and if you believe that the torture and goal of the Filipinos was the same intent as the Roman soldiers then you just keep resting in your “argument” my friend. Well, I am off to church now to worship God Almighty and Jesus his Son, my Savior & Lord, I’ll check in later on your responses. Thank you….
Report Post »DLV
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 11:12am“These 4 individuals do not have a book in the Bible. Their story has been conveniently left out. If we had their story we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If these 4 had seen signs of life in Jesus, they were not got to yell out, hey, he’s still alive! No, they would take him to a safe place for treatment. The tomb”
Report Post »There are no written records from them to date. A. They didn’t write down what they saw. B. They did but it didn’t survive time. Either way, it doesn’t matter literally your entire argument on both posts is speculation and wishful thinking. I’ll stick with the people who saw jesus die and resurrect. Thanks rather than you who has no proof that Jesus was alive just a lot of what could have happened. Lame!
SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 2:03pm@ SURHAN…Oh my word, you surely are a test of my patients my friend. Did I say the spear killed him? I don’t think so, but I can assure you that even men and women that have passed out have a reaction when painful stimuli is applied (unless they have been given a paralytic agent as with a general anesthetic). They may react involuntary, but they react (I am a surgeon and see this all the time). Again, no legitimate evidence for your position and I will let my posts from this point on speak for themselves. I have already entertained this silly assertion too long and to do so any longer gives more of an appearance of legitimacy than it truly deserves. It is a serious flaw in logic and reason to suggest Jesus survived the cross to the ignorance of the observers of that day and if you want to continue to avoid very legitimate and obvious evidence to the contrary I am afraid you do so to your own peril. Thank you….
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 2, 2012 at 3:18pmHey DLV….I agree with you…Be blessed my friend.
Report Post »txblaze
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:29amWe love this man. My husband has given out his book More Than A Carpenter to more people than I can remember over the years. We will look forward to seeing the movie.
Report Post »klevalt
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:15amI believe that his story is the story of many…. Not many people can rise above that kind of abuse, and not become some sort of derelict in society…. it really does know that God’s Grace is bigger than everything that we have had to endure…. and then the ability to embrace it as an experience that though not deserved, is a part of who we are…. and continually fighting back the personal guilt and shame, which is an ongoing struggle that lasts a lifetime… AND it is not impossible because through the forgiveness of our offenders, we find peace.
Those who don‘t find God’s grace through all of their turmoil will experience turmoil throughout their lifetime, and will either deny the experience, or always use it as a reason for being the way they are…
Report Post »GlennaBeckski
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:26amYou are so right KLEVALT … look at Joyce Meyer’s story.
Report Post »GlennaBeckski
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:35amWhat’s really disturbing is like Josh.. Joyce Meyer’s story was way before the advent of the internet where any “spirit killer” has the ability to feed their lustfull desires all at the push of a button. I shudder to think what goes on behind many closed doors in this country as well as across the globe.
Thankfully God sees all … and what is done in darkness will be revealed and dealt with in the Light.
Come Quickly Lord.. It’s getting really ugly down here : (
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:13amJosh is one cool fellow. I have had the honor of him being on my radio show. I can’t even imagine how many souls he has brought to Christ. I salute this man.
Report Post »Jenny Lind
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:04amHow can I get your channel and show in Ohio? Still learning on the internet, takes us old dogs a bit longer, but we get there. Thanks
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 11:21amWe are changing internet providers so we are not streaming yet. As soon as we are, I will be shameless in promoting that fact. {:
Report Post »nzkiwi
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:06amHmmmm.
Report Post »fande3rls
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:58amJosh Mcdowell has been an inspiration to millions , God bless him . he has told the story about how he tried to disprove god before , and how it turn him to christ .
Report Post »corbecket
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:13amTrying to disprove God is no different than trying to prove his existence. It won’t work in either direction. Either is an exercise in faith, as you’re attempting to prove (or disprove) the supernatural with natural tools.
Josh really could have saved himself a lot of time and effort if he had realized it’s all an exercise of faith. Glad he’s set his path on something more productive. Sounds like he has an interesting testament.
Report Post »GlennaBeckski
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 10:13amLee Strobel a former Chicago Journalist/Lawyer also set out on a 3 year venture to disprove Christ and the Bible. He is now a commited Christian. God always takes what the devil means for evil and turns it into something good and beautiful. How great is our God */*
Report Post »Oh yes You are Lord… Worthy to be Praised */*
SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 8:23pmSo did Lew Wallace the author of Ben Hur……
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on September 1, 2012 at 9:08pm@ COR…I totally disagree, with all due respect. Jesus is most defintely provable. Of course God is supernatural, but he became a man and walked among us and left us a testimony and great cloud of witness in the form of many eyewitnesses, miracles and a ressurection that all stand the test of evidence be it bibliographical, internal or external evidence. In fact, the evidence is so overwhelming that I used to be an atheist until I set out to fully examine, in the most objective way possible, the claims of the bible and all the evidence I could acquire from many sources including crtiques of that evidence. I have read for over 30 years many many religious texts and arguments and only one contains both the wisdom and evidence demonstarting that it truly is the word of God. All other texts I have examined most defintiely have the fingerprint of men upon its creation. There is NO OTHER book on Earth like the bible in composition, topics, realness, wisdom, or inspiration. Thank you….
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