Federal Court: NY Town Violated Constitution By Opening Meetings With Christian-Themed Prayers
- Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:00am by
Billy Hallowell
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GREECE, N.Y. (The Blaze/AP) — Yet another epic prayer battle has been erupting in an upstate New York town. On Thursday, a federal court of appeals ruled that local officials violated the constitutional ban against favoring one religion over another by opening nearly every meeting over an 11-year span with prayers that stressed Christianity.
In what it said was its first case testing the constitutionally mandated separation of church and state, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit ruled the town of Greece, a suburb of Rochester, should have made a greater effort to invite people from other faiths to open monthly meetings. The town’s lawyer says it will appeal.
From 1999 through 2007, and again from January 2009 through June 2010, every meeting was opened with a Christian-oriented invocation. In 2008, after residents Susan Galloway and Linda Stephens complained, four of 12 meetings were opened by non-Christians, including a Jewish layman, a Wiccan priestess and the chairman of the local Baha’i congregation.
Galloway and Stephens sued and, in 2010, a lower court ruled there was no evidence the town had intentionally excluded other faiths.
A town employee each month selected clerics or lay people by using a local published guide of churches. The guide did not include non-Christian denominations, however. The court found that religious institutions in the town of just under 100,000 people are primarily Christian, and even Galloway and Stephens testified they knew of no non-Christian places of worship there.
The court ruled the town should have expanded its search outside its borders.
“The town’s process for selecting prayer-givers virtually ensured a Christian viewpoint,” it ruled.
The court acknowledges there was no formal policy on who should be invited to deliver invocations, and that the town was open to people of all faiths speaking at meetings. But it also noted the town board didn’t publicize the idea that anybody could volunteer to deliver prayers and made no comment when a prayer in October 2007 described people who objected to the prayer practice as a “minority . . . ignorant of the history of our country.”
Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, which represented Galloway and Stephens, was pleased with the ruling.
“Government meetings should welcome everyone,” he said. “When one faith is preferred over others, that clearly leaves some people out.”
The Alliance Defense Fund, an Arizona-based group that presses faith-based cases in courts nationwide, represented the town in court. It said it will appeal the ruling.
Joel Oster, senior counsel for ADF who argued the town’s case, called the ruling “highly inconsistent” with what the Supreme Court has said on the issue and said it means towns will have to “complete an obstacle course” before they can qualify to say a prayer before a meeting.
“The town has no obligation to go outside of its borders as if it’s an affirmative action program,” he said.
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Comments (113)
Vickie Dhaene
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:44amWe can change this if we pay close attention to the bios of our LOCAL judges more. Change HAS to start at local levels.
Report Post »johnjamison
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 11:47amActually change can come all at once..No court is the land has the power to rule on Religion.
Report Post »Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of Religion or PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE THERE OF. That pretty much covers everything
colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:59pmThe Constitution DOES NOT demand that the US or any city therein forces diversity or madates multiculturalism. Must the town accept the chants of witches at the beginning of each meeting, if they discover that ONE practicing witch lives in their city, though against the will of the people? NO. That’s what elections are for. We elect those who hold our views most closely, thus ensuring they act upon those things we hold in common. If a witch desires occultist chants at the beginning of meetings, she must convert the PEOPLE, not sue the Council.
Every new session in Congress opens with a prayer. THIS is how it started:
“Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils… We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning… in order to open the meeting with prayer.” Elias Boudinot, PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
Report Post »turkey13
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 5:13pmNew York is on my no fly list so no big deal to me. When I buy on Amazon or E-bay I skip over venders in NY, Detroit, Chicago, Phillie and D.C. because they are nuts. Also, they don’t recoginize my carry permit to have my gun and protect myself – yet they have the highest % chance to be robbed at gunpoint. I just want to know why they haven’t stopped Nascar from saying a prayer before the race twice a year in NY?
Report Post »tricia
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:38amA Wiccan priestess? Are you kidding me, this is a religion? How can any Christian begin a meeting or be part of meeting after the WICKED says prayers to their gods? No prayer at these meetings would be better then participation and recognization of falsehoods and insults to Jehovah God.
Report Post »When will the people of the true God, stand for the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and reject this POLITICAL CORRECTNESS LIE, or we will all share in Jezebel’s judgement.
phillyatheist
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:32amyou see, this is precisely the problem. you, TRICIA, may feel that the Christian God is the right one, and you are perfectly allowed to believe that. the Government, on the other hand, cannot favor a particular religion. if you want prayer at Gov’t meetings, you must open it up to prayers of all/any faiths. i agree with you, no prayer at all is the best solution.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:06pm@phillyatheist You fail again. Your opinion is not legally binding. Every President has taken their Constitutional Oath with their hand on the Christian Holy Bible, while a Supreme Court Justice administers the swearing in. Next Inauguration, must we include a Koran, Wicca Book, Coloring Book, Egyptian Book of the Dead, and the Satanic Bible? NO!
“Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.” James Madison
Report Post »obrien871
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:53amAre you freaking kidding me… Congress opens with a prayer! This country is going freaking nuts.
Report Post »o2bsailn
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:58amYes, but not long ago Congress had the “prayer” given by I think it was a Buddhist, who prayed to multiple “gods”. A family I know stood up in the gallery and shouted him down and were arrested. It is time for Christians to stand up and be heard, no matter the cost. This country IS a Christian nation founded on God’s laws. Let us be silent no longer!
Report Post »\
ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 1:18pm“This country IS a Christian nation founded on God’s laws.”
Funny how our Constitution doesn’t mention that.
Report Post »flagkeeper
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 1:40pmScienceIsNotEvil – If you accept the authorityof our Creator endowing us with unalienable rights, you also accept the authority of His laws (10 Commandments, etc.). Either our rights come from God or the whims of governments and men.
Report Post »ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:14pmWould this be the same deity who killed all life on the planet because it upset him and who tells us to execute rude kids?
Report Post »tarm778
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:00pmScience, how you misrepresent about the character of God, makes you the ill-informed fool that you are.
Report Post »You’ve bought a crock of lies and that is very, very sad.
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-evil.html
colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:20pmFunny how atheists always bring up out of context topics or subjects, which were not discussed previously, and automatically dismiss everything presented beforehand, and refuse to substantially refute anything actually stated, but instead choose to insult and distort things around. Next, they’ll say words like Sky God, cookie monster, Harry Potter, Evil God, and will do the hokie pokie just to avoid discussing any real subjects brought up. They will make up or insert outrageous claims, presenting nothing within historical context, or in relation to any subject at hand, especially when discussing things concerning OUR national heritage and history, and will instead give you a whole thesis about things that happened in Camelot or Middle Earth, and not here in the US of A. Just like the liberal Media. Talk about going to the store to buy some socks, and they’ll condemn you for supporting capitalism and sweatshops. What a bunch of idio…
Report Post »randy
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:49amThe court ruled the town should have expanded its search outside its borders.
DO not comply!
“The town’s process for selecting prayer-givers virtually ensured a Christian viewpoint,” it ruled.
Report Post »SO WHAT!
Freedom Hound
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:32amI am not a religious person, I don’t believe in a God. Some may say I am an Atheist, I consider myself to believe in science.
Report Post »With this said, I personally do not have an issue with anyone that believes in a peaceful entity (unlike Islam). I couldn’t care less if people pray at the beginning, middle, or end of any ceremony be it public, private, or government sactioned. The simple fact is this country was built on religious ideals and religious freedoms. It seems to me that the very basis of what this country was built on is constantly under attack.
ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:16pmHow was Noah’s flood peaceful?
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:42pmWhether or not you believe in God. He is real. Heaven is real and Hell is real. What people want to think is of no consequence when the dealing’s done. A tree will lie where it falls.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:21pmBLACK – and you KNOW this how? have you been there, or talked to someone who was?
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:24pm@ScienceIsNotEvil You never stay on topic. Perhaps you be better suited watching MSNBC, and joining a bowling club. Your comments are of no relevance here. However, you have every right to stay here and post… and look like a fool when commenting.
Report Post »crazyoz
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:30amAnti obama federal court at work!
Report Post »tarm778
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:02pmObama’s only religion is progressive-ism and his only goal is to rule this country as its first dictator.
Report Post »michaelgb
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:01pmAnd what is wrong with anything which is anti obama ???
Report Post »christopher.duncan2388
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:30amAm I missing something here? Did this council create a law forcing you to abide by one religion or another? No? The who cares?
Report Post »angiea
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:36amYes, but it’s the Islam trait, “comply only with my religion, and none other”. Islam is the only religion I know of that will “Force” it upon the citizens if we give in an inch! Christians just don’t do that. In Indonesia recently a large group of Islamists threw urine, rocks, etc. onto Christian church members — Tell me, WHO does that?? Not the peaceful Christians. (and please don’t bring up what a sect of people did 200 years ago, it’s sad that people have to go back that far to dig up dirt on a Christian group).
Report Post »ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:17pmYou mean like all those laws which used the exist which allowed public schools to punish kids who did pray?
How is that not force?
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:34pm@ScienceIsNotEvil You mean like public schools today, which for the most part, force parents to send their kids for six hours a day to be indoctrinated by strangers, and to meet amoral, disrespectful, intolerant, bias, rude, high minded, irreligious, liberal, ignorant school staff and students? Why must home school or private school parents support these other fools with their money? I don‘t want my money going to schools that don’t teach that our rights come from God, but from men.
Fisher Ames, known as the primary author of the First Amendment, was a publicist, statesman, judge and congressman from Massachusetts (1791-1797). On September 20, 1789, Fisher Ames was quoted in Paladian Magazine, giving his view of American education:
“We have a dangerous trend beginning to take place in our education. We’re starting to put more and more textbooks into our schools. We’ve become accustomed of late of putting little books into the hands of children, containing fables and moral lessons. We’re spending less time in the classroom on the Bible, which should be the principal text in our schools. The Bible states these great moral lessons better than any other man-made book.”
Report Post »mensa141
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:29amPerhaps these federal judges shoudl clean up their federal counterparts first? Like the prayer that is given to open congress.
Report Post »randy
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:51amThe day Congress or the Senate throws down their prayer rugs and face faces Mecca, we know we’re all screwed.
Report Post »madderg
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:01amGeorge Washington first speech as president.it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States.
Report Post »tarm778
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:05pmJohn Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an “indissoluble” bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.
The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a National Denomination (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: “By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing.” Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut, from which we derive the term separation of Church and State he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:38pmThe father of the Constitution, James Madison, said, as President, in a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation (1815):
“No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the goodness of the Great Disposer of Events of the Destiny of Nations than the people of the United States. His kind providence originally conducted them to one of the best portions of the dwelling place allotted for the great family of the human race. He protected and cherished them under all the difficulties and trials to which they were exposed in their early days. Under His fostering care their habits, their sentiments, and their pursuits prepared them for a transition in due time to a state of independence and self-government. In the arduous struggle by which it was attained they were distinguished by multiplied tokens of His benign interposition. During the interval which succeeded He reared them into the strength and endowed them with the resources which have enabled them to assert their national rights, and to enhance their national character in another arduous conflict, which is now so happily terminated by a peace and reconciliation with those who have been our enemies. And to the same Divine Author of Every Good and Perfect Gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land.”
Report Post »elation22
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:53amIt’s all about FREEDOM – ours to lose with Obama democracy math – 1% = majority. God bless Greece, NY – my prayers are with you. It should not be a fight for free speech or religious freedom. They (obama & his handlers) are seriously focused on taking this country down, piece by piece, freedom by freedom. History is repeating itself and we cannot remain silent – speak out!
Report Post »APROUDVETERAN
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 11:20pmObama OUT in 2012 !!!
Report Post »bigdaddyt46
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:51amBenjamin Franklin said:
i’d rather live my life believing there is a God, and die to find out there isn’t one. then to live my life believing there is a God only to die and find out there is.
Report Post »bigdaddyt46
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:54amthat should be isn’t
Report Post »ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:19pmDoesn’t your religion speak out against the spreading of false rumors and/or lying?
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i_would_rather_live_my_life_as_if_there_is_a_god/221974.html
Report Post »tarm778
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:03pmFor a quick review. Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: “the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen”. Sounds Christian to me.
Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: “God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?”
John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; “The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were … the general principles of Christianity … I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:41pm“The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made ‘bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God’.” John Adams
On January 21, 1781, Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734-1802) petitioned Congress to officially sanction a publication of the Old and New Testament which he was preparing at his own expense:
“RESOLVED,
THAT the United States in Congress assembled HIGHLY APPROVE the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they RECOMMEND this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this Recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”
Report Post »HKS
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:44amI think we have a judge problem in this country. Maybe we should address that problem as it seems to me that were putting the wrong people there, sorta like the white house.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:44ammaybe we should put Bishops in their place. then you‘ll start to get the results you’re looking for.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 5:23pmExacta Mundo. These judges are radicals.
@philly LOL. No one is suggesting that churches and states become one legal inseparable entity. You’re confusing religious principles with ecclesiastical institutions. Jefferson wrote in a 1802 letter that he did not want his administration to be a “government without religion,” but one that would “strengthen… religious freedom.” The Northwest Ordinance, passed in 1789, states that “religion, morality, and knowledge“ are ”NECESSARY for good government”. Your statements are made in ignorance. My right to religious liberty doesn’t end at the front door of my house. I may, if elected to office, act upon those virtuous principles which build my character and guide my behavior, and freely express those same principles to others. There’s no restriction or limit upon this right. Our founding fathers encouraged religious principles, especially within our laws, and our constitutions. James Madison, “the father of the Constitution”, and George Mason, “the father of the Bill of Rights”, coauthored Virginia’s Declaration of Rights, and declared, “it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.” The Constitution doesn’t prohibit religious expression, anywhere. The Constitution doesn’t state, Congress shall make no law respecting religion. Rather, it prohibits adopting any one ESTABLISHMENT of religion (not religion in general) as though being part of Government.
Report Post »From Virginia
Posted on May 20, 2012 at 11:29am@Colt – ignore Philly and Encimon. They always do this. Every time someone suggests getting back to Constitutionals principals they SCREEM theocracy!
They are, however, perfectly fine with muslims crowding a busy New York street (ohhh – PUBLIC PROPERTY!!!) – closing it down 5 tims a day – while they pray to the building they hope to make a mosque celebrating the murder of 3000 people.
Truth is, they are anti-Christian, only.
Report Post »Mandors
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:34amSo Muslim towns around Detroit can start their meetings with Islamic prayers? Jewish communities in Westchester County, NY can recite Hebrew prayers before they meet? Of course not. Everyone is okay when it’s THEIR God being prayed to in government, but not someone else’s. That‘s why there’s separation of church and state.
Report Post »MAULEMALL
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:54amGod…Would you please teach these fools to read and then get them off thier lazy arses and have them read the constitution and then get someone with a 20 iq or higher to expalin the big words to them so they will stop saying ignorant things like seperation of church and state..
Report Post »In Jesus name we pray…
Amen
jcldwl
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:12amSeparation of church and state is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. My guess is the life long indoctrinated judge didn’t even read the constitution to see that it does not apply in this case. The constitution states. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” This town hall meeting is not the U.S. Congress therefore they have not violated the constitution. The judges are the problem plain and simple.
Report Post »13th Imam
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:16amThe Constitution protects us from the Government ESTABLISHING A RELIGION. Not from us practicing religion. You are a DUNCE.
Report Post »Stoic one
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:28amMANDORS
Report Post »Google critical reading and take the class…………..
Dougral Supports Israel
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:46amIn a Muslim majority town I would not have a problem with Islamic prayers said at community functions. I believe that people should have the ability in this supposedly free land to express themselves religiously and culturally in their daily activities. I believe it is better to allow everyone to be as free as possible than to squelch freedoms for everyone.
Report Post »Mandors
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:44amSo with the exception of Dougral, you all will be okay if your town gets a Muslim majority and votes to have public calls to prayer every day? I don’t thinks so, you dolts. Thanks for proving my point, and thanks for fostering the stereotype that conservatives and people of faith are idiots.
13th Iman, how ignorant of the Constitution are you? “Establishing” means making a single religion the official religion. Saying Christian prayers before an official town meeting does exactly that.
The Founding Fathers did not want anything that looked like the Church of England. THAT’S what the First Amendment is at least in part about. The other part includes the right to pray how or whether you want, not holding a church service during a town meeting.
Considering how government messes everything up, I don’t want it near my religion.
Report Post »BeeAlert
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:57amOf course YES! That is exactly the point. Local control means local control. Why would a Jewish community open with a Christian prayer? Why would a community with NO religious members (enough to have a local congregation) other than churches, open a meeting with anything BUT a Christian prayer?
Report Post »Obama_Sham
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 11:09am@Mandors
““Establishing” means making a single religion the official religion. Saying Christian prayers before an official town meeting does exactly that. ”
It does not, in fact, establish religion at the governmental level… However, I will extend that it can lead to ESTABLISHMENT…
“So with the exception of Dougral, you all will be okay if your town gets a Muslim majority and votes to have public calls to prayer every day? I don’t thinks so, you dolts. ”
That is why one has the right to MOVE… If one does not like the area they live in, whether it be for religious beliefs, crime, ethnicity, or whatever, they can move… Stop imposing your views on everyone else…
“That‘s why there’s separation of church and state.”
Ahhh yes… The blurb that the left loves to use… Funny how it was taken from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote but at the same time, we cannot use ANY of the FEDERALIST PAPERS in order to clear up the thoughts of the founding fathers concerning the constitution…
Go away dolt, you bore me…
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 5:45pmThe first amendment does not say, Congress shall make no law establishing a religion, Nor does it say, Congress shall make no law respecting religion.
It says, Congress shall make no law respecting an ESTABLISHMENT of religion. Religion, or religious principles, was NEVER prohibited by the Constitution. Herein, as Madison noted, the meaning is meant as a “separation between ECCLESIASTICAL and civil matters”. That intent here was to ensure that the US would not incorporate any ecclesiastical body as a function of Government, as those that were existent in England or Rome. This however did not discourage religious principles or expression within the public square. In fact, Jefferson’s Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom
begins by stating, “Almighty God hath created the mind free.” Our Constitutions and laws have always presupposed a Divine Being.
“On Monday last the Circuit Court of the United States was opened in this town. The Hon Judge [Supreme Court Justice] Paterson presided. After the Jury were impaneled, the Judge delivered a most elegant and appropriate charge… Religion and morality were pleasingly inculcated and enforced as being necessary to good government, good order, and good laws, for “when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice”… After the charge was delivered, the Rev. Mr. [Timothy] Alden addressed the Throne of Grace in an excellent, well-adapted prayer.” New Hampshire Newspaper from Portsmouth 1800.
Report Post »AmericanWomanFirst
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:32amAh, life in ny state. Perfect example of a self absorbed NYC transplant who took a train to the burbs to see how the rest of NY survives with out her intellectual dribble on how it is so unfair to her and a “few” lost missfits. After all animals have rights too….
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:26amRead, if you haven’t already, THE HARBINGER by Jonathan Cahn.
The comments here about the spiritual warfare we are in are true. We have broken down the hedge of protection around us by giving up GOD in our own lives and in our society. The only way back to it is II Chronicles 7:14 and now, not “tomorrow” or “someday”.
To those of you who pride yourselves (good clue to your spiritual state) on being atheists, agnostics, non-CHRISTIAN: Time is short. You would be wise to start questioning your own arrogance and why it is you think you are more important than the CREATOR GOD WHO made you and gives you breath to this moment. May HE lift the veil from your lives so that you see and know HIM before you choose to live eternally without HIM. In JESUS’ MIGHTY NAME, amen.
Report Post »Baddoggy
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:19amJust finished it.I would not want to be living in that town if they turn away from God. I would tell the UNGODLY Federal Court to go pound sand. I would rather face prison than God Almighty’s judgement on the matter……
Report Post »EP46
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:24amIt’s freedom of speech. If you can have a meeting….then you can have freedom of speech. If not, it is not a meeting it is a censored presentation.
Report Post »johnjamison
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:18amIt’s time communities stood up to this BS. The courts have no constitutional right to rule on this either way. If the people of the community take issue with this let them handle it.
Report Post »conservativejon
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:15amWOW even if you dont like what they did IT DOSENT VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION. the establishment clause referse to passing laws in regards to a religion. no law was passed.
when our courts cant even correctly interpret the constitution on a clearly expressed point theres a problem
Report Post »holy ghostbuster
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:34amWhy don’t you become a federal judge? Every federal judge and the Supreme Court has ruled for decades, since becoming an issue, that the First Amendment, applies to the states and that “establishment” does not have to mean enacting laws. Lets look at another part of this First Amendment… “Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech…” Following your logic and reason, states would be free to make laws prohibiting your free speech. Are you ready for that?
Report Post »conservativejon
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:57amread the establishment clause it says clearly “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” the Free Excirsise clause is very diffrence “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” see the diffrence.
your arugment on free speech dosent apply to the establishment clause.
and dont say the Supreme Court is the end all be all of Constitutional interpretation, this is the same court that said slavery was right because blacks we infreior and we should be allowed to kill our unborn children
Report Post »conservativejon
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:05am“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
is clearly separate from
“or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”
no where does it even allude to not saying a prayer in government meetings.
Report Post »13th Imam
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:38amHoly Ghost There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting buying a carbonated soda at lunch. Should the state’s be able to prohibit it?? Oh Wait, the DEMOCRAT”S nanny state ………
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:05pm@ghost LOL. You’re wrong. If that were the case, the incorporation of a Christian Bible, at a swearing in of an actual Constitutional Office, would be unconstitutional. The use of a Bell, at a Government building, with a Bible verse on it, would be unconstitutional. The use of the capitol building for divine services, would be unconstitutional. The ten commandments on display inside the Supreme Court, would be unconstitutional. A President stating, in his official capacity, that “this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom”, would be unconstitutional. A congress, beginning its new sessions with a prayer, would be unconstitutional. A congress, recommending the distribution of the Bible, to the inhabitants of the US, would be unconstitutional. Our presidents mentioning God, and imploring for his blessings, guidance and providence, in all their inaugural and farewell addresses, would be unconstitutional. Our Congress proclaiming days of Thanksgiving to acknowledge our Creator, and be grateful for his favor upon our nation, would be unconstitutional. A Governmental declaration appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our actions, would be invalid. To think that our founding fathers, who constructed and ratified our Constitution, would be so traitorous as to commit all these acts, would be ridiculous. According to your logic, our founding fathers were a bunch of liars, rebels, and traitors to our Constitution.
Report Post »moussiagilda
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:15amNo. Not exactly.
Report Post »circleDwagons
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:14amIt is time for America to fall on her knees and PRAY to the One True GOD.
Report Post »good people must continue to support good. For God to bless America, America must first Bless God.
lgccac
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:13amPeople can deny it till the cows come home, but America is a Christian nation, founded on Biblical principles.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:37amok, i’m denying it. consider it denied. deny deny deny. not a Christian Nation. not even close. never was, never will be.
Report Post »ScienceIsNotEvil
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 2:24pmYour religion prohibits you from lying so please provide facts that support your statement or issue a retraction.
Simply stating something as fact doesn’t make it so.
Report Post »tarm778
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 3:17pmOur Republic form of government, expressed in the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and finally the Constitution, is based on Judeo-Christian ideology of individualism in our relationship to our Creator, and to each other, and natural law which arises from that foundation of deity/creation relationship. It is the Natural Law which gives us the rights and liberties expressed in the Bill of Rights, which the government created by the Constitution DOES NOT give us, and therefore cannot be taken away by any law passed within that form of government.
Report Post »To claim, as many godless liberals do, that America is not based upon a moral Christian foundation is totally at odds with the truth and the facts of history.
colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:16pmn 1883, the Illinois Supreme Court stated, in Richmond v. Moore, “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian”. ALL fifty state constitutions acknowledge God, and that our blessings of civil and religious liberty come from him alone, not from men.
The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: “…the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen”.
John Adams said, “The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were… the general principles of Christianity… I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
In 1892 the Supreme Court stated, “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people… This is a Christian nation.” This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a “Christian nation”
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:18pmOn Mary 27, 1854 the House delivered a report (the Senate report was very similar), responding to a group petitioning Congress to separate Christian principles from government:
“Had the people [the Founding Fathers], during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect [denomination]…. In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity…. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”
Two months later, the Judiciary Committee made this strong declaration:
“The great, vital, and conservative element in our system [the thing that holds our system together] is the believe of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Washington said, in his Farewell Address, when speaking to the American people, “With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles.”
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:24pmThomas Jefferson said, in his second Inaugural Address (1805), “I shall need, too, the favor of THAT BEING in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, AS ISRAEL OF OLD, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.”
Thomas Jefferson, said, “The older I grow and the more I read the Holy Scriptures [the Christian Bible], the more reverence I have for them and the more I am convinced that they are not only the people’s guide for the conduct of this life, but the FOUNDATION of our hope respecting THE FUTURE STATE.” (Upper Room Bulletin, Vol. 3, 1916, p. 8.)
John Hancock, signer of the Declaration, proclaimed, “Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual… Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us.”
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:28pm“Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.” John Dickinson, Signer Of The Constitution; Governor Of Pennsylvania; Governor Of Delaware; General In The American Revolution
“It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver… and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Samuel Huntington, Signer Of The Declaration Of Independence; President Of Congress; Judge; Governor Of Connecticut
“For my part, I am free and ready enough to declare that I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice.” James Iredell, Ratifier Of The U. S. Constitution; Attorney General Of North Carolina; U. S. Supreme Court Justice Appointed By President George Washington
Report Post »holy ghostbuster
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:23pm@ Colt1860 – Thomas Jefferson also stated:
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.” -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
“I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshiped by many who think themselves Christians.” -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.” -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Report Post »And my favorite…
“The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.” -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:28pm@holyghostbuster I provided real historical facts supporting one thing, and refuting the claim that the OP was lying. You provide irrelevant quotes that are posted to mean something else than originally intended.
Sure, I have questioned God’s existence. After careful investigation though, and a period of serious thinking, I deemed God to be real. I did not one day out of the blue on some random day out of nowhere believe in some Divine Being.
As to the rest. All the founding fathers were against the Popish Church at Rome, and against the Monarchical Church of England. Of course, they had negative things to say about religion, but more specifically, and within context, organized religion, especially as that exclusively practiced by the States in Europe.
Jefferson quotes:
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.”
“The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.”
“I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.”
“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:32pmA cover letter, dated in Philadelphia, July 6, 1776, was attached to the Declaration of Independence, as it was sent to the British authorities, wherein John Hancock states:
“Gentlemen, Altho it is not possible to forsee the consequences of human actions, yet it is nevertheless a duty we owe ourselves and posterity in all our public councils to decide in the best manner we are able and to trust the event to That Being who governs both causes and events, so as to bring about his own determinations. Impressed with this sentiment, and at the same time fully convinced that our affairs will take a more favorable turn, The Congress have judged it necessary to dissolve all connection between Great Britain and the American Colonies, and to declare them free and independent States as you will perceive by the enclosed Declaration, which I am directed to transmit to you.”
“The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.” General Order, (9 July 1776) George Washington
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 9:35pmOur common law was greatly influenced by the Magna Carta which makes references to God, “…Know that, having regard to God and for the salvation of our soul, and those of all our ancestors and heirs, and unto the honor of God and the advancement of his holy Church and for the rectifying of our realm, we have granted as underwritten by advice of our venerable fathers…”
The Mayflower Compact, which is part of our national heritage, states, “Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.”
“Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.” James Madison
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 19, 2012 at 12:03am“The House of Representatives of the Thirty-Fourth Congress, 1854,… passed the following preamble and resolutions:—
Whereas, The people of these United States, from their earliest history to the present time, have been led by the hand of a kind Providence, and are indebted for the countless blessings of the past and present, and dependent for continued prosperity in the future upon Almighty God; and whereas the great vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it eminently becomes the representatives of a people so highly favored to acknowledge in the most public manner their reverence for God:” (pp. 327,328)
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 19, 2012 at 12:04am“The character and qualifications of a chaplain for Congress are presented in the following view, given by Rev. Thomas H. Stockton, himself having occupied that responsible position for several years. He says,—
Report Post »‘The Congressional chaplaincy is not (or ought not to be) a sectarian ministry, but a great American representative of a pure Bible Christianity, above all parties, all glowing with the divinest energies of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,—arresting and commanding attention and exerting saving influences by its’ heavenly loftiness and majesty,—something worthy of the sublimest Christian position on the face of the earth. We want evangelical ministers who represent the immense majority of American Christians, noble witnesses for Christ, orators of the Spirit, worthy to challenge heaven and earth to hear their ‘Thus saith the Lord.’ It is a glorious thing rightly managed.’
colt1860
Posted on May 19, 2012 at 12:16amThe renowned Constitutional scholar, Henry Black (1860-1927), author of Black’s Law Dictionary, and editor of The Constitutional Review from 1917 to 1927, recognized and acknowledged America’s Christian foundations. In his Handbook of American Constitutional Law (2nd ed. 1897, 3rd ed. 1910, 4th ed. 1927), he stated,
“…that many of our best civil and social institutions, and the most important to be preserved in a free and civilized state, are founded upon the Christian religion, or upheld and strengthened by its observance; that the whole purpose and policy of the law assume that we are a nation of Christians, and while toleration is the principle in religious matters, the laws are to recognize the existence of that system of faith, and our institutions are to be based on that assumption ; that those who are in fact Christians have a right to be protected by law against wanton interference with the free and undisturbed practice of their religion and against malicious attacks upon its source or authority, calculated and intended to affront and wound them ; and that the prevalence of a sound morality among the people is essential to the preservation of their liberties and the permanence of their institutions, and to the success and prosperity of government, and the morality which is to be fostered and encouraged by the state is Christian morality, and not such as might exist in the supposititious “state of nature” or in a pagan country.”
Report Post »Obama_Sham
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:12amIt is time for the localities to tell the state to pi$$ off… And it is time for the states to tell the feds to pi$$ off…
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:43amso you’re an Anarchist?
Report Post »Obama_Sham
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:55amNo… Not an anarchist… It’s time for the concentration of governmental power to be held at the local level, then at the state level, and the least amount held at the federal level…
Learning is fundamental…
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:45pmWe’re a federal Government divided into states, counties, cities and towns, NOT some absolutist centralized nation.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:09amTreason!
Report Post »Jezcruzen
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:08amThe Covenant is broken. The hedge of protection has been removed. America is in imminent danger.
These judicial idiots will have a lot to answer for!
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:25amI know the Answer!
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 10:40amhighly Religious people in the late 19th century were screaming the same thing. they said America would be damned for not including Jesus in the Constitution, and they fought for decades to get Christianity sanctioned as America’s official religion. didn’t work then, won’t work now. and i’m pretty sure America went on to become the greatest Nation in the world, despite the rantings of the early American religious right.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 6:32pm@phillyatheist Stop exaggerating, and revising history. While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington’s response, he first told them that “Congress… will look on them as on their own children.” That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision, “You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.”
“On Monday last the Circuit Court of the United States was opened in this town. The Hon Judge [Supreme Court Justice] Paterson presided. After the Jury were impaneled, the Judge delivered a most elegant and appropriate charge… Religion and morality were pleasingly inculcated and enforced as being necessary to good government, good order, and good laws, for “when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice”… After the charge was delivered, the Rev. Mr. [Timothy] Alden addressed the Throne of Grace in an excellent, well-adapted prayer.” New Hampshire Newspaper from Portsmouth 1800.
Report Post »Thatsitivehadenough
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 7:02amThe communist war on religion and God continues. Make no mistake. That is what this war is all about.
Report Post »jcldwl
Posted on May 18, 2012 at 8:21amIt’s not the communitst. It’s satan. It is a spiritual war and satan is simply using those that don’t believe in The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit as useful idiots to do his bidding. Remember Saul Alinsky dedicated his book Rules for Radicals, to Lucifer, who he refered to as the first radical. So where do you think old Saul got the ideas he put in his book? Funny Saul Alinsky referred to useful idiots and the whole time he was a useful idiot of Lucifer himself. Pray and Believe. Read the Bible and it will open your eyes. It is the truth.
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