Franklin Graham Answers: Can an Evangelical Christian Vote for a Mormon?
- Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:08pm by
Madeleine Morgenstern
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CBN
Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith has been a constant, if at times unspoken, aspect of the campaign. Polls have shown evangelical Christians in particular may be wary of voting for a Mormon. In an exclusive interview with CBN News, Rev. Franklin Graham weighed in on that notion.
So, can an evangelical Christian vote for a Mormon for president? Yes, Graham said.
“Yes. The fact that Mitt Romney‘s a Mormon doesn’t bother me,” Graham told CBN. “I think when we’re voting for president we need to get the person who is absolutely the most qualified. You can have the nicest guy and he can be a Christian and just wonderful but have absolutely no clue as to how to run a country. You don’t want that, you want somebody who understands Washington, who understands government, who understands how to bring people together so that we can move this country forward.”
Calling Romney a “very capable fellow” and similarly praising the other candidates in the field, Graham said this election is a time for Christians to pray.
“We need to pray that God would give the right man [or] woman to lead this country,” he said. “This is probably the most critical election in my lifetime — our country is headed on the wrong course, and we’re going the wrong direction…people have lost their homes, they’ve lost their livelihoods and the politics of Washington right now is not helping.”
Graham said the shape the country is in could be “God’s judgement,“ and that a ”new crop” of politicians is needed to pull America out of its current state.
“We pray that God would — and this could be God’s judgement, he could judging this country for the rejection of his son and our government, our government leaders have turned their back on God and his laws and his statutes. We need to pray that God will give us a new crop of politicians, I don‘t care if they’re Republican or Democrat, but who fear god and who will put God’s standards over everything else, who will take us back to the God of our fathers and that’s what we need to pray.”
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints consider themselves to be Christians, though members of other Christian denominations consider them to have significant theological differences. In October, a key supporter of Texas Gov. Rick Perry ignited controversy when he said Romney belonged to a “cult” because of his faith.
GOP contender Jon Huntsman is a Mormon as well.
Watch the interview clip with Graham below, via CBN:
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Comments (1033)
Baikonur
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:32pmIs this a joke? Mormons are Christians.
I would rarher vote for a Mormon than an evangelical.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:36pmYou are wrong. They arent Christians. That is the myth they have been pushing for years. If you look into their faith they arent Christians. Unfortunatly alot of them have been tricked into thinking they are.
You cannot be a Mormon and be a Christian.
Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:41pmI am a Mormon, and I‘m pretty darn sure we’re Christians. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ leads to Repentance of our sins and Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, after which we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those who have authority. Sounds pretty Christian to me.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:43pm@kank
Do you believe God is a exalted man?
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:44pm@kank
Do you believe through works you can become exalted to the highest level of Heaven and become a god yourself?
If so then yes you are a Mormon. If yes to the Mormon, then No you arent a Christian. Seems pretty clear to me.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:46pmmartinez012577,
Report Post »You are correct. How could LDS have possibly been in it‘s creation ’Christian” if the founder taught multiple wives, when Jesus said “One man, one woman?”
Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:48pmWhat else is he going to be? A big gelatinous blob? A big happy fuzzy feeling? If we humans are his “children”, wouldn’t it stand to logical reason that he is also a human – but exalted beyond what we are?
Declaring Christians to only believe in some abstract, non-real God is just as good as Dawkins talking about a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Time to broaden your horizons and accept that those who believe in Christ, the literal Son of God and Savior of the world are Christians. But, if Christian denotes a watered-down, wishy-washy belief system which is only half-full and pointless, then Christian has no meaning any more.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:49pmI know what LDS is. But they wouldn’t like what I know they are.
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:52pmThe true mormon theology is not sound; meaning the plan of salvation. People need to read the Bible and ask Christ into their life.
Report Post »Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:54pmYour contentious questioning is typical of those who have only a parcel of truth mixed with a bunch of half-baked lies. It is very clear in James that faith without works is dead. Not everyone who cries to Christ “Lord, Lord” will be saved, but those who do his will. And what is his will? Love one another, charity, service, kindness, etc. Not once is his will declared to be “sitting on your couch thinking about how awesome you are after self-declaring that you are Saved”.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:58pmOne man doesn’t marry more than one woman. In the beginning of “Man” God created Adam (one man, One spirit “Man”), then God took a rib of spirit from Adam, and closed up the *flesh, then that rib *mist spirit from Adam went into a multitude of people called “Help meet and wife, and woman.” This is why some religions, and people spiritual insight is slightly blind causing them to think it’s alright to marry more than one woman, but in fact, the multitude of people is still one wife.
Report Post »paperpushermj
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:02pmMartin why don’t you just Say “Mormons Don’t meet My Narrow Definition” of Who is or is Not a Christian and leave it at that. Now I‘m a Golden Retriever so don’t have a Human in this fight but it seems to me If you say you‘re a Duck and Walk Like a Duck and Pray to the Duck God Well I think you’re a Duck.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:02pmOf course Mormons believe they are Christians. But most other Christians do not believe they are. And frankly, Mormons officially don’t think other Christians are true Christians either. Otherwise why would a new “prophet” be need to “reestablish” the church? Baptists don’t think much of Catholicism, and the feeling is mutual, but both of them recognise that the difference between them is not as great as the difference between them both and Mormonism.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:06pm@kank
Stating that God used to be a man implies there are other gods. Believing you can become a god is none Christian. That makes you a NON Christian.
The difference between you and Scientologist is they dont come knock on my door and pretend to be Christian. Mormons arent Christian. Put down your pagan book and read the true word of God, The Bible.
stage9
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:06pmIs mormonism and Christianity the same thing? FIND OUT:
Report Post »http://sourceflix.com/the-bible-vs-the-book-of-mormon/
Veritek
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:08pmChristian 1 (ˈkrɪstʃən)
— n
1. a. a person who believes in and follows Jesus Christ
b. a member of a Christian Church or denomination
2. informal a person who possesses Christian virtues, esp practical ones
Sounds pretty basic to me… A Christian is someone who believes in Christ and strives to be Christ like. Don’t get hung up on details of a particular religion.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:10pmThe “Fruit” that God has given out to people is that *mist rib that came from Adam, and it also came from Christ. That was the water that came from his side.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:13pmHow many people knew my above statement? I bet they don’t teach you that at church.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:14pmmartinez012577 By your definition and that of many evangelicals, Christ himself would not qualify as being Christian.
Matt 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John 10
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Psalm 81
Report Post »6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:17pmI ran into a guy like you several years ago, Martinez. He handed me a pamphlet and began telling me to my face what my religion is all about when I already know what it is about. His tactic, as is yours, is not to persuade one to believe in Christ (which I already do), but to denigrate another’s faith just because you are uncomfortable with it. It is not a good tactic, and it most definitely not a Christian thing to do.
I read the bible. I read it a lot. I like it a lot. I also read the Book of Mormon, a record of the Nephites (also known as the Hopewell Indians of North America), which talks about Christ visiting this land after his resurrection. During this visit he taught the people here the same things he taught to the Jews and Samaritans, and established his church among them. Christ is the Savior of the whole world, not just a tiny group of people in a land most of us will never see. There is nothing about the Book of Mormon which discounts the Bible, and, believe it or not, there is nothing in the Bible which discounts the Book of Mormon.
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:18pmFranklin speaks well. Whatever your theological position on Mormonism, God is able to use even the unrighteous for his own ends, so the real prayer question is to guide us to choose the RIGHT leader.
Report Post »auntmoxie.com
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:18pmI tend to agree. You know what gets me about this type of question? It’s that if we were truly focused on liberty and the Bill of Rights, it would be a moot point. We need someone who will defend our right to worship, speak, and live freely as we so choose.
Report Post »stage9
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:19pmYour “definition” of Christian Church is a SECULAR definition and a simplistic definition.
Mormon: The Mormon Church, officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. According to Mormonism, all other churches are in a state of apostasy. Doctrine and Covenants 1:30 describes the Mormon Church as “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.“ Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt taught that ”…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism, or the Lord’s supper from their hands will highly offend God; for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.255). Because of this, Mormonism teaches membership in this church is the only way to be truly saved. Mormon Apostle Mark E. Peterson stated, “Salvation is in the [Mormon] church and of the [Mormon] church, and is obtained only through the church” (Deseret News, Church Section, Published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 14, 1973, p.14, inserts added).
Christian: Composed of individuals who have recognized their sinfulness and have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. It is not denominational buildings or organizations that comprise the Church but rather God’s people. Acts 4:12 reads, “for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” That name is Jesus Christ, not the Mormon Church or Joseph Smith.
Report Post »tketterer
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:22pmThey are not Christians. Wake up America, Romney =Obama in false prophet sheeps clothing. We are being duped big time. Mormons have infiltrated this govt in order to bring the “Kingdom of god” into existence. Their members have no clue. Read this now!!!!!!
Report Post »Can Mitt Romney Serve Two Masters?: The Mormon Church versus the Office of The Presidency of The United States of America by Tricia Erickson an ex mormon and daughter of a bishop. PLEASE read especially all the people like you Ann Coulter, Joel Osteen etc. The devil is at the door.
martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:22pm@kank
Galatians 1:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
Introduction from the book of Mormon
“On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a GLORIFIED RESURRETED BEING, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and the its destined translation into the English language.”
So lets recap, in Galatians its says no other gospel even if it comes from a angel is real and any other is cursed by God. Moroni as a resurrected being brings Joseph Smith a new gospel and you think its ok. The book of Mormon clearly tries to contridict the Bible.
You bring up works as way to get to Heaven or the only way to Heaven. Nice try, there is only one way to Heaven.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.” — Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Acts are not required. Nor do they get you to Heaven.
“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Isaiah 64:6
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:25pmThere is only one Church in Christ, and many church organizations have members who are among the one true church, and know one knows who they are except Jesus Christ alone. And the disciples of Jesus were the oil in that they went out spreading Christianity, and keeping the covenant best they could, and like that they were the branches, and the disciples themselves the oil.
Report Post »Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:33pmAnd how do you get by Christ? By just giving him a high-five and saying you believe in him? He will stop you in your tracks and ask you if you followed ALL his commandments. Seriously, this is not complicated.
Secondly, your point about the angel thing is valid – if the gospel being preached was different. Read the Book of Mormon, and you will see that the two gospels are the same in message, in law, and in spirit. There is nothing super freaky in the Book of Mormon, and it is an incredible testament to the divinity of Jesus Christ – not to mention a fantastic read and historical record. Seriously, this is not complicated.
I have read the Bible from cover to cover (even Solomon’s Song, which was, frankly, odd) and I know it to be true. I also have read the Book of Mormon and, after intense prayer, meditation, and study, I have received confirmation from God Himself through the Holy Ghost that it is also true. I also know that through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a fulness of the Gospel has been restored, and that through its principles and authority all mankind can be saved, if not in this life, then certainly the next.
Report Post »Bubba
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:34pmIn John 3:16, ‘whoever’ sounds pretty inclusive to me. But I’m not a theologian; I’ve got a pastor for that sort of question. However, I am living in a Republic, not a theocracy. So I’ll be voting for the candidate best able to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution and my ‘negative liberties’, and not for their religious affiliation. It sounds like Franklin Graham is in agreement, at least in principle. Southern and evangelical voters, take note.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:36pmYo kankokage:
Report Post »Scripture say’s to not add or subtract from scripture… does not the Book of Morman do this many hundreds of years latter ???
PATTY HENRY
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:40pmMormons aren’t Christians, but GRAHAM is (as usual) 1000% right. GOD deals with our Faith. As long as we KNOW GOD, HE will lead us where he wants us.
I would NEVER vote for an Atheist because that tells me he’s too dumb to be dog-catcher, much less President…but a different path to GOD, believing and living their faith…you betcha.
WOULD I vote for a MUSLIM… NEVER. WHY? Because that is NOT a faith. IT is a Cult. AND…THEIR GOAL is to controls us/kill us. You don’t find that in other religions…and they do NOT worship the GOD of ABRAHAM. HOW do I know? LOOK at their actions.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:42pm@kank
Answer my questions.
1. Is God a exalted man? Was he like you and I and turned into God?
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
“…you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, – namely, by going from one small degree to another…”
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
“After men have got their exaltations and their crowns – have become Gods…”
Really?
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson ‘14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets’ pgs 1-16, 1980:
“Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.”
Your prophets huh?
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, “Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children…”
The Bible talks about false prophets.
Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
How many wives did Joe Smith have? 33?
Report Post »rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:42pmKANK is brainwashed. Quoting the Bible, book of Mormon and false Native American studies, angelic beings declaring themselves to man. Some here say that he sounds intelligent. You can use correct grammer, anunciation, spell, sentence structure and still be NUTS.
Mormons are Mormans first then Christian. Book of Mormon comes first then Holy Bible. They even exault an American over Moses. Mormon comes first to Mormons because Religion is man at his most depraved.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:49pmtketterer,
Report Post »I think it’s pretty obvious, “Church of Latter Day Saints.“ ”Of?” How do they know they are saints? Maybe they are not. I certainly wouldn’t call myself a Saint, and neither would I want to call myself a Saint. That would be as to call myself at or near perfect, and if I thought myself perfect, then I wouldn’t see my own flaws. I think perfect is the act of being imperfect, but working to be better, and if I was completely perfect, then what flaws would my son see to make better? In that if I was perfect, then my son could only become less perfect.
Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:52pmActually, if you want to ask the deep doctrinal question, Moroni (not Mormon) was resurrected not first at all. Abraham, Moses, Noah, Elijah, and many, many others of the Old Testament have not only been resurrected, but they are already learning how to be Gods. Moroni isn’t even there yet (as far as we know).
And yes, Martinez, God was once a man like us, but when and where is not known. Just as there are many of us, there are many who are gods, but for us here, now, in this world, we have our one and only God, our Father, and his Son Jesus Christ by whom we are saved, and the Holy Ghost by whom all revelation from the Father is given to man. Now I know what‘s you’re going to say. AHA! LOOK YOU’RE WICKED! YOU’RE NOT A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH! Please, spare me the typical response. I believe in my faith wholeheartedly, and that isn’t going to change.
And its enunciation, not “anunciation”.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:53pmEverything aside – I would vote for a Mormon for President because of Liberty and most people are just men.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:56pm@paper
Yes I have a very narrow view on how to get to Heaven.
Believe in the real Jesus Christ who died for everyones sins.
Now Mormons will say, “but we believe in Jesus Christ so we are saved.” Incorrect, you dont believe in the real Jesus Christ. You believe in a Jesus that was created by a god who used to be a exalted man. This exalted man had two sons through intercourse with space goddess. You believe that this Jesus was conceived on earth through sexual intercorse with your god and Mary.
If you believe God is a exalted man, you do not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Its plan and simple. If you believe you can do works and become a god yourself, you do not believe in the Jesus Christ in the Bible.
That is the thing that completely sets your religion apart from Christianity. As I stated earlier, your faith preys on Christian faiths in trying to convience people that you are no different than Baptists or Methodists. Problem is your faith is the work of the devil.
If you believe the part of the Mormon faith that you can become a god then you have been tricked just as Eve was in the Garden of Eden.
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Wake up. Answer the question. Can you become a exalted man and turn into a god. If you believe this you are truely a Mormon.
Report Post »Kankokage
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:01pmNow as much fun as it is being pelted by your arrows, I’m going to have to pull a Samuel the Lamanite and leap off this wall, for I need to go to Toys r’Us and get some awesome toys before the Obama administration outlaws conservatives from leaving their homes. Kankokage loves you all ^_^.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:05pmmartinez012577 Satan did not lie about that part. He lied about not dying. Otherwise you make God a liar also.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
As to more than one God or becoming a God, is Jesus a God? We believe he is. Does he have a Father and God? Absolutely. That would make two Gods. Unless you want to defend the indefensible and false doctrine of a three in one trinity, then you have to admit that there are more than one Gods. As the apostle Paul said
Report Post »1 Cor
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:06pmJust like a lot of Christians trick themselves into believing that they believe in the same God as the Jews. Fact is, you don’t.
Report Post »Faith1029
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:11pmLook up Ed Decker. He is the founder and International Director of Saints Alive in Jesus, a ministry that actively brings the gospel of grace to those lost in the darkness of cultic bondage. He is a former Mormon who spent almost twenty years of his adult life as a member of the LDS Church before he became a born-again Christian. Ed was a convert to the Mormon Church at age 20. He was a member of the “Holy Melchizedek” priesthood, a “Temple Mormon” and active in many areas of leadership in local LDS churches. Ed became a born-again Christian in 1975 led Ed when he discovered the real love of God in Christ. It was then that Ed gave his life to the real Jesus as revealed in the Bible.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:11pm@ Kank
“And yes, Martinez, God was once a man like us, but when and where is not known. Just as there are many of us, there are many who are gods, but for us here, now, in this world, we have our one and only God, our Father, and his Son Jesus Christ by whom we are saved, and the Holy Ghost by whom all revelation from the Father is given to man. Now I know what‘s you’re going to say. AHA! LOOK YOU’RE WICKED! YOU’RE NOT A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH! Please, spare me the typical response. I believe in my faith wholeheartedly, and that isn’t going to change.”
Your statement proves you are not a Christian. Thank you for making my point. Please refrain from spreading this belief you are a Christian faith.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:15pmMormons believe that the way to salvation is perfection, and that’s why they are not suppose to smoke or even drink coffee. But I ask: if I am perfect, then what will my son be? If I don’t drink coffee, and neither has my son been exposed to coffee, then how is it he will know coffee? Then surely he may be a coffee drinker. I find it interesting that some Mormons speak about the things that will happen if we forget our history, and yet they strive to be perfect by not drinking coffee or smoking cigarettes. How is it your children will know these things if they have not been exposed. And then it’s like they forget history, and will be doomed to repeat it.
Report Post »TheCalvinistPastor
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:16pmIf Mormons are Christians…………..then Christianity has lost all meaning. LDS redefine almost every aspect of Christianity, including the Nature of Jesus Christ. Thats no different then what muslims do, and what Jehovah’s Witnesses do.
BOMUSTGO
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:18pmThe early congregation never ever baptized converts in the three titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.. It was always in the singular name of Jesus. See Acts 2:38,8:16, 10:48,19:5,22:16, and Rom 6:3-4. The RCC changed it.There is no power if you use the titles. Power is in the name.Research people.
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:20pmThese are Mormon beliefs and are contradictory to Christian beliefs. Mormons are NOT Christians. You don’t get to eat steak and still be called a Vegan.
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
#
“A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to ‘deny men their agency and to dethrone god,’” (“Mormon Doctrine,” p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
“Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions).” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
“Good works are necessary for salvation.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
“There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
Report Post »Faith1029
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:21pmThe President’s pray for God to direct them in their leadership. Since the President will be asking for His guidance, I want him to be praying to the God of the Bible and not another gospel, another Jesus.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:22pmAdam fell because Adam didn’t know the “Rain.” Adam was placed in the Garden before he knew the Rain, and when he was exposed to the rain by the serpent, Adam fell. Do Mormons want to keep their children from knowing the rain so that their children may fall?
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:26pm“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements—’obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 79).
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts,” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
Now I know most of you will not read what I have posted and just throw back attack arguments, but the truth of the matter is these are STRAIGHT from the source. I did not make these up, they are not merely opinions of Mormons but they are from their own preaching and writings.
I don’t hate them at all. They have high morals and values and I love that about them. But they are not Christians.
christos
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:26pm…Don’t recall Joesph Smith in the Talmud or Torah,,,The King James Bible stems from the Talmud & Torah—+JESUS+ is the Judge know one else +JESUS+ looks at your heart which know one else can see,some peoples definition of a Saint also varies,,,Love everyone and you have fulfilled the law of +GOD+JESUS+ denominations take the focus off +JESUS+GOD+ and puts the focus on man.
Report Post »LeadNotFollow
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:30pmBAIKONUR…. Mormons are usually not considered as evangelical Christians.
Report Post »I would have no problem voting for a Mormon.
rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:35pmKANK,
You will never become a god. None of us will. We are lucky to not be going to eternal damnation if we are born human into sinful bondage.
My biggest fear about Romney is that if he gets the Presidency he will think just like KANK. ‘Hmmmm, gee, now I guess what my momma told me must be true. I’m god of the earth.’
Guess when your confusing politics and religion its easy to mix up words like enunciation for the Annuciation. J/k
Report Post »NYSTREETKID
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:40pmJesue asked us to believe in him and the given of his life to save us from our sin and death. If you are in this camp your are a child of god and a brother in christ. Let not pointing out our faults but hold on to each others love. one god and chirst his son. all other thing are just not important
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:47pm@joel
•”For this is what the Lord says — he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited — he says: `I am the Lord, and there is no other’ ” (Isaiah 45:18).
•”Declare what is to be, present it — let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:21-22).
•”Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me” (Isaiah 46:9).
Three scriptures from the Bible stating there is only one God. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost for the Holy Trinity. One God three parts, not what Mormons believe which is three different gods.
God didnt lie. By eating the fruit, humans did die and are born in sin. The only way to have life is through the true Jesus Christ.
Report Post »sabrinacle
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:47pmMormons are not Christians.They are Mormons. They do not believe the same bible as main stream Christianity and they have added on “gospels” that do not adhere to true Christian phylosophy.It says in the bible that anyone who adds or takes away from the scripture is cursed.That pretty much spells it out for Mormonism.While I agree that they are nice people and mean well and on all other areas I would not hold their faith against them….they will never be Christians.They are just nice people trying to do good.
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:47pmModeration –
Report Post »I’ve yet to met another Christian who believes Jews and Christians believe in the same thing…
joel228
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:49pmAnAppealToGod, good works don’t save but are necessary. Doing good works is keeping the commandments.
Matt 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
martinez012577, by your standards no one can achieve eternal life.
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
How can you know a being that you are not like? Jesus said be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
1 John 3
Report Post »2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
christos
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:54pm@ELIASIM : I have heard your post about the rib before,my teachers are John Hagee Cornerstone Church,Les Feldick.org & Dr. David Jeremiah,I never needed to an inquiry from my kid to know what Church to attend…
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:55pmeliasim-
Plural marriage was the norm through most of the bible. It was a standard practice. Where does Jesus say one man one wife? Exact quote please.
Report Post »bombshelterbob
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:57pmMartin…
Report Post »You couldn’t be further from the truth, our whole faith is Christ centered, you just need to look past your prejudice.
christos
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:57pm@ CHRISTOS : EDIT…I never needed to have an inquiry from my kid to know what Church to attend,,
Report Post »Joey8
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:58pm@Martinez
Report Post »So if Mormons are wrong, which church is right? Why are there approximately 38000 denominations? Help me I want to know which one is right. Obviously, if you all believed in the same thing, there wouldn’t be 38000 interpretations of one book. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Favored93
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:01pm@martinez012577
Report Post »I like your zeal and your knowledge base is good.
The only thing I would question is your motive. Are you trying to win the Mormon or win the argument?
If it is to win the Mormon I would just say that on this forum that is a fruitless endeavor. Face to face Bible study is how that is done. If it is to win the argument you need more time then what is afforded to you then this.
I believe there are born again Mormons. Finding the truth takes a bit of time and study.
God was and is not a man… Numbers 23:19 (NKJV)
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”
God does not have a creator this is true but the Mormons are our brothers…wrong on some points as we are on others.
Argue but do so as family because we are.
To the Mormon I would say study harder on the issue of who God is and were He came from … meaning He had and has no beginning or end but Just like the Jew you are my brother.
Argue as family be kind to one another.
lizshade
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:03pmOpen comment to Eliasim : Oh my goodness. I was just introduced to a similar subject in the torah about the rib and side and where did u get this teaching about Jesus and rib? I Am blown away. I have seen your posts before but gloss them over. I am blown away. It is for the birth of the Bride. Like the birth of Eve. I am open mouthed. Please share more. It was straight from God to me I believe from what I was attracted to learning. Felt compelled to walk thru Tora. I know now why.
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:03pm4truth-
“Do not add or subtract”
The Bible was not one book but a bunch of different writings written at different times. The quote you quote was written before several other books that are included in the bible, so it a null argument. There were christians before there was a bible.
Report Post »madasblazes
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:07pmCorrection:
Perry did not call Mormanism a ‘cult’.
A pastor who introduced Perry to speak is the one who called Mormanism a ‘cult’. Perry does not believe Mormanism is, a so called, ‘cult’.
Report Post »sbenard
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:14pm@ Martinez
You’re the most UNChristian person here! I‘m grateful to God that my faith in Christ doesn’t depend upon your FALSE witness!The name of Christ appears 402 times in the Book of Mormon!
“And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” The Book of Mormon
So much for your false witness!
Report Post »joel228
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:15pmmartinez012577, I can find more than three scriptures that say God is one. Can you find one that defines “one”. Try this
John 17
Report Post »21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
hidden_lion
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:15pmThe mormons belief in becoming a god is a deviation of an original Christian concept of “Deification”. This was something taught in original christianity. Protestants are just as heretical as mormons so you should worry about your self and let others find the truth through there own journey. Modern christians have become a hateful lot that Christ would not recognize as his own. You should be Christians no Bible-onians. The bible doesn’t save, Christ does. The bible is there as a guide, not to be used to crush the people with.
Report Post »rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:19pmNYStREEt
That is the point here. What you said about one god. KaNk actually believes other patriarchs are gods and that he and Mitt Romney are gods too. So when you want to sit in another camp, read the damn literature before sitting around their fire. You might be Christians writing on here but that does not exclude you from being idiots. Wake Up!
Report Post »Kiddle
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:25pmAsk any member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints and they will testify boldly that CHRIST is their lord and savior! That they do believe he died for our sins and was ressurected again. If anyone needs to find out what the “Mormons” believe, you best ask a “Mormon” for yourself. Other sources will seek to discredit and tell lies about the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. As a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints, it makes me deeply saddened to see that there are those who would tell these lies. That is the adversary indeed!
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:27pmJoey8_
the right church is the original church. The church that has not deviated from the teachings of the apostles….You would be looking for the the Eastern Orthodox church.
Report Post »Female
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:28pmI am a Chriatian and I agree with Mr Graham. I do not particularly like Mitt Romney as my number one but it he were the nominee. I would vote for him to beat Obama.
Hmmm, Mormon doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Baptist doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Charismatic doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Methodist doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Pentocostal doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Calvary Chapel doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Church of God in Christ doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
Catholic doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
All “Christian” church doctrine has many things I believe are unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether they are Christians.
My personal doctrine is potentialy unscriptural. I leave the judgement to GOD as to whether I am Christian.
Report Post »Lars Skipole
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:36pmI would vote for a Mormon… unless it’s dingy Harry… what’s up with that.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:47pmMormonism is a cult, based on an invented history that is nowhere confirmed in archeology. We have biblical literature (scripture) because it was handed down by a culture, a people. If such a culture existed that believed in Jesus Christ in the Americas then where are the scrolls, tablets, written materials of this culture? If Nephites truly existed, where is the evidence? Answer: They did not. It’s all magically transmitted to us through golden tablets via a reverse rapture from heaven. What a crock of BS Mormonism is.
Beware the Baloney from Moroni, for moron is in his name!
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:49pmhidden_lion,
Answer: King James – Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 But for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife. 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Therefore it is that they were created “Twain” and not “Thrice.” A marriage between one man and one woman.
Report Post »GeorgieBaby
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:54pmEveryone who is reading and responding to Martinez in defense of Mormonism, please stop. Just ignore him. He does this on every story that has something to do with Mormonism. I’ve reported him to the The Blaze a number of times, but they seem to let him continue to spread Anti-Mormon rhetoric. He copies and pastes Anti-Mormon propaganda into the discussion ad-nauseum. He thinks he is wise, and most likely thinks he is “ministering” to us. But the reality of the situation is that he is propagating hatred and intolerance. And he isn’t even generating any original thought. He’s posting information and claiming it as his own anti-Mormon tracts created by other people. He is plagiarizing when he posts.
Anti-Mormonism is equivalent to Anti-Semitism. There is no refuting this statement. I find it ironic that evangelical Christians can stand and defend Israel and fight against Anti-Semitism, yet practice the same hatred, bigoty, and brainwashing tactics that Muslim extremists use in fighting against Israel. Perhaps ironic is the wrong word? Maybe its hypocrisy?
Isn’t this America? Doesn‘t this country allow those to worship accoding to the dictates of one’s conscience?
Report Post »Female
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:59pmFunny, I guess I renamed my faith, “Chriatian”. I just get so upset the way we who call are selves Christian treat each others religious traditions. I don’t believe it is our many words or our arguments which will persuade but a life full of the fruit of the Spirit and a true love for GOD and especially, a true LOVE for are neighbors. The words we speak could be exactly the same but if the look in the eye which they can see into our soul is not love and concern for them but CONDEMNATION we are damaging the very hope of salvation or doctrinal corrections ever coming.
So, I implore you, “Christians” regardless of flavor:
1. To remember, many of our words are harmful to the cause of Christ; especially, when it comes to people who believe nothing hearing/reading.
2. For our very souls sake to be very careful, because the same measure of harshness, judgment, and condemnation which we put upon another by attempting to disect their beliefs, will be….the leaven of the pharisees…prideful self-righteousness….argumentative…The same measure of judgement which we are willing to put on another will be used on us at Judgement Day. I fear for our souls that in our zealousness of doctrinal theology (not love) we have destroyed the works of the Spirit who had been wooing both those with error and the lost.
3. Try sharing privately, humbly, and lovingly the hope that is in us through Christ Jesus. Actions and our eyes will speak louder than our shouting:)
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:00pmFor those non-judgmental people out there interested in understanding, rather than twisting and wrongly impugning, there’s a perfectly biblical, logical non-sinister and non-blasphemous answer to Martinez on the LDS doctrine of exaltation.
Report Post »Romans 8:16-17 talks about the faithful saved inheriting all God has, just the way Christ did. With eternity being such a long time, it shouldn’t seem so bizarre to take this literally. If Christ truly makes us perfect through His sacrifice, then at the end on an infinitely long step by step process of improvement, we might one day learn to become as He is and receive that inheritance of omniscience and omnipotence.
To present it as if Mormons somehow think they‘re God’s equal distorts what they themselves believe. To present it as if it’s non-Biblical and un-Christian to believe it isn’t supported by the above-mentioned scripture. To those who know better, please stop being dishonest because God doesn’t like that. To those who are sincerely misled, please look into it for yourself before you post.
Ralphbp
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:08pm@Martinez How many Mormons do you know? I’m sure that all the evidence you would present would be from people who have never even met or talked to a member of the church. There are over 4,000 publications that have been published trying to disprove the teachings of the church. Have you wondered why so-called Christians are so adamantly opposed to the LDS church? Remember the truth has no agenda. If you want to know the truth, ask the Lord. I promise, He answers prayers.
Report Post »janedough1
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:10pmAnybody but Obama.
Report Post »oneshiner
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:10pmstage9: Doctrine and Covenants 1:30 describes the Mormon Church as “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.“ Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt taught that ”…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism, or the Lord’s supper from their hands will highly offend God; for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.255). Because of this, Mormonism teaches membership in this church is the only way to be truly saved.
————————————————————————————————————————————————-
“YIKES” This passage is exactly why most Christians are leery of the Mormon Church. This is what they teach, but it’s not why my Bible says. I‘ve come to terms that mormons are believers if they don’t delve into their doctrine too much, but when they believe one of their elders can dictate anything contrary to the Bible, that frightens me.
One thing about Mormons’ is they do take care of their own, but I‘ve heard they think it’s God‘s will that they take advantage of everyone else who isn’t Mormon. I’ve not entirely trusted them as business people, because of this belief. I’ve know many Mormons and they do take advantage, when they can.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:14pmlizshade,
Report Post »I read it in the Gospel according to John. When looking water came out of Jesus side. Because the “Water” is spirit, and the soul is the “Flesh.“ And then so it was that the water which sprang forth from Jesus went out to those who received the ”Living waters” and those are the waters that Jesus soul walked on as such when he came to see the disciples gathered in the room, and as such when they were fishing in a “Ship” and they saw Jesus on the shoreline, but at first Peter did not recognize Jesus.
ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:15pm@ANAPPEALTOGOD
Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God while also being God(ie the God of the old testament.)
Christians believe Jesus died for our sins and that the only way to the Father is through him(Jesus). Well, Jews DON’T believe that, therefore they don’t believe in the same God.
Christians just said “Jesus is God” so they could hijack Judaism and say “Well Jesus is the son of God but also is God” so they wouldn’t be breaking that pesky 1st commandment when they worship Jesus. If Jesus wasn’t God, and they worshiped Jesus as they do now, they would be breaking “Thou shalt have no other God’s before me” which would make Christianity even more illegitimate then it is now.
It’s pretty common sense and rational thinking if you actually THINK about it, but I know that thinking rationally about their “faith” is something that is frowned upon by religions.
Report Post »iceironman
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:25pmI figured out awhile back that you cant change other Christians beliefs on the Book of Mormon. Its like a Christian trying to tell an atheist they are wrong. It goes no where. I gave up. I dont argue science with atheists, I dont argue doctrine, I argue through my actions. Its funny how pissed main stream “Christians” get and want to disown Mormons and even see them fail and call them names etc. 90% of those who speak here no nothing. I guess when the Mormon church leaders start having mass corruption, we will be as “Christian” as the rest of the folks on this blog.
Report Post »MartyTr
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:25pmMormon doctrine says that Christianity is an abomination. They wear special underwear to protect themselves from them. Their heavenly father in on the planet Kolob, the wives salvation is determined by her husband. I could go on and on. That is not Christianity. Joseph Smith is a false prophet. So is Ellen G. White, Seventh-Day Adventists, so do the Catholics, with the Pope, so is Islam, with Mohammad, so is the Jehovah Witness Watchtower group, nobody knows who they are. It’s all on the internet. Don’t be lazy. Go to yahoo, type in– What Mormons won’t tell you, or Mormon beliefs, etc. All the false faiths have a false prophet and their book that denies the diety of Jesus Christ. I believe in freedom of religion, just don’t lie about what your “religion” teaches. Athiest are a religion of self. Jesus Christ is the narrow path to the only true God. Choose the others at your peril.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:31pmModerationIsBest,
Report Post »How is it you don’t understand that the Son is also God? Do you not understand earthly things? Are you as the child of a parent the culmination of all your parents work? As a son do you not carry on your father’s name, the house of your father, and father’s before him? Do you not learn from your child, and that is like a vineyard planted by you that you learn from as a drink of wine I suppose?
Bearfoot
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:32pmWhat would be the motive for someone to attack another faith and not give a example of their error?
A attacker has to have a motive, otherwise he would not target that specific faith. And why single out a particular faith who is not even part of the topic being discussed?
TheCalvinistPastor Posted at 4:16pm – If Mormons are Christians…………..then Christianity has lost all meaning. LDS redefine almost every aspect of Christianity, including the Nature of Jesus Christ. Thats no different then what …. Jehovah’s Witnesses do.
What does Jehovah’s Witnesses have to do with this topic being discussed? Seems to be some kind of vendetta being nurtured by the “pastor” and every chance he gets, tries to insult some good people. Every understanding of JW’s is based on scriptural proof and sound reasonings. To say the trinity doctrine is endorsed in the Bible is just not true. It is a lie, a tradition of men.
The nature of our Lord Jesus is well established in the scriptures and to say he is a triune god is not ever found in the Bible.
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:34pmJoel – Learn how to read. It helps understanding what it is someone is saying before responding.
joel228 – you too.
Report Post »marybethelizabeth
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:38pmWho the Mormons call Jesus is not the same being as the Jesus of Christians.
Christians Believe in a triune God: a belief in the Trinity.
The Mormons do not.
But the belief that only a Christian should be elected to public office is looney.
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:39pm*correction
@moderation you too!
Report Post »jacflash
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:48pmGalatians Chapter 1 verse 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed
But though we, or an angel – That Gospel which I have already preached to you is the only true Gospel; were I to preach any other, I should incur the curse of God. If your false teachers pretend, as many in early times did, that they received their accounts by the ministry of an angel, let them be accursed; separate them from your company, and have no religious communion with them. Leave them to that God who will show his displeasure against all who corrupt, all who add to, and all who take from the word of his revelation.
In 1835, Smith identified the angel as Moroni: In 1835, while preparing the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, he made additions to an earlier revelation regarding sacramental wine, and indicated a number of angels that would come to the earth after the Second Coming and drink wine with Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Smith et al. 1835, p. 180). Among those angels, the revelation listed “Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel; to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim” (id.). Around this time, Oliver Cowdery was writing a history of Joseph Smith in which he identified the angel as the prophet Moroni from the Book of Mormon (Cowdery 1835, p. 112).
Report Post »FALSE GOSPEL
This_Individual
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:53pmTrue. I’m not even Christian but I would rather vote for a Mormon than those national socialists who claim to be Christian (if I was ignorant enough to vote for someone soley based on their religion).
Report Post »Damn the Taxes - Full Speed Ahead
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:57pmOh great soothsayer BAIKONUR, You are incorrect! Mormons are not Christians. I am not saying this as inflammatory, just as a fact. I know several Mormons but their belief tenets are NOT Christian. A simple way to find out if a particular denomination or sect is Christian is to find out if they follow, recite, and believe in, the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed is fundamental to all “Christian” worship.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:59pm@sbenard
LOL just become the name Christ is in your book that doesnt mean you are worshipping the same Jesus Christ that is in the Bible.
You do know his name wasnt Christ right? Christ means “annointed one”. The problem with the book of Mormon is you are annointing a man. Jesus Christ wasnt a man. His father wasnt a man. He never was a man. To claim he was a man belittles the one true God.
Mormons, you will not become gods. You will not get to rule over a planet of your own. You are following a book written by a false prophet.
“But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him,” (Deut. 18:20-22).
1. Prophecy about Jesus’ return within 56 years
(History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189)
2. Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith’s Generation
(Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)
3.Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in “not many days”:
(Doctrine and Covenants 88:87)
4.Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled
Report Post »(Pearl of Great Pric
Jenny Lind
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:00pmI am truely sick of this, I am a “Mormon” and I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, “without whom no man comes to the Father”. I believe in being saved, and I am really tired of other people telling me what I believe. I KNOW what I believe, so please stop trying to tell me what I believe-I don’t tell you, and I want the same respect.
Report Post »Patrick Henry II
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:04pmMormons are Christians from a Mormon perspective.
That does not mean that mainstreme Christians like myself do not like, appreciate, fight along side or could vote for a Mormon. I can. Most Mormons are very nice people.
You want to talk serious religion we can. I do not know that this is the place. It could be very counter productive. We should just agree to dissagree.
Report Post »Suggested reading: “New World Religion” by Gry Kah
MAC12ME
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:05pmWe better elect someone who honestly believes that our first freedom is that of Religion and is willing to defend that right. I’m fairly wowed by the ongoing discussion about Mormons and the fact that no other religion gets this kind of blog action. God Bless America!
Report Post »Hawk1775
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:12pm@ Martinez. Sounds like you know a lot, but have you ever asked a member what we believe? Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? Have you ever met with missionaries, or even visited mormon.org? My suspicion is no. We believe the Bible (yes, the Christian one) to be sacred scripture revealed by God. We believe Him when He said “let us make man in our image.” We believe in the Savior Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible. We believe that when He says “be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” that it is possible. We do everything we can to follow and obey, but it is only the grace of God through the Atonement of Christ that it is possible. That is what I sincerely believe.
Report Post »captainwillieoneleg
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:15pmI am so stinking tired of this bickering between religious bigots – WHO THE HELL CARES about your definition – God will judge the heart of each man – if being a Christian means being a FREAKIN’ BIGOT – I don’t want to be a Christian any more… If you’re a Christian, stop your judging, sit up straight, and at least act like you love and respect your Mormon brothers and Sisters like a good Christian does… and stop acting like a FREAKIN’ HYPOCRITE. If we are the body of Christ then act like it… Reach out, and lead by example what Christianity means. If you don’t have anything good and Christ-like to say then do us all a favor and zip-it… you’re making us all look bad…
Report Post »Ishmot2
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:34pmMARTINEZ012577 You have know idea what you are talking about.Please look into it before you bear false witness.
Report Post »Ishmot2
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:36pmDo you believe through works you can become exalted to the highest level of Heaven and become a god yourself?
By our works alone no only through Jesus Christ can we become exalted or as you would probably put it, saved.
Report Post »Stopit
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:44pmWhen a trillion years have passed in the new heavens and new earth, all eternity will have just flickered into its beginning. FOREVER is a long time, people. Better KNOW the truth. Eternal damnation is irrevocable.
The Lord Jesus Christ said, I AM…the truth. Do you know him personally?
My soul is anchored in Christ, HIS finished work, not mine; and HIS shed blood, not mine. He did a perfect work at providing eternal life as a free gift to all who will believe on & receive him by believing on his name…the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord (the Jehovah of Jehovah’s…the great I AM) Jesus (Jehovah’s salvation) Christ (God’s anointed King…of his kingdom there shall be no end) It’s him, and him alone. Have you got him? “He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”
All your religion and works and the very best YOU can do is nothinig but filthy rags and a stench in the nostrils of a thrice holy God. You need HIS righteousness because your’s will send you to a lake of fire.
“For after that in the wisdom of God (the OT scriptures), the world by wisdom knew not God (didn’t know their Creator when he came in the flesh), it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE.”
God changed his plan as part of the “new covenant”…at this present time (II Pet 1:12) it is whosoever will believe their need and God’s provision. Christ has opened to door freely to all who simply believe and trust him as their
Report Post »9635kari
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:45pmMr or Mrs. Martinez. You have either become apostates or you simply do not know what you are talking about. Do you think we woroship Seagulls? We are the Church of JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS. You obviously don’t know your religions.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:48pmYo Hidden_Lion:
What you speak is incorrect… did not God know you before he created you ???
I am fully aware of how the bible came to be.
The bible is as you and I… and God wanted NOTHING added or subtracted to it in it’s completed form, thus the warning!… which you seem more then happy to ignore to suit youself. This would seem foolish… do you always pick and choose as such.
I think maybe I will have a God moment tomorrow as I walk in the woods and title it…”The Additional Teachings of Jesus….. From the Last Days Saints
There was a God before there was a bible and before there were christians…..!!!
Report Post »rokkrawler66
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:08pmyou dont know what your talking about. i am not sure your definition of christian but i am a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, known to most as mormons. i believe in christ our savior. i am a christian and will disagree with anyone who says other wise. so maybe you need to truly check your facts before you say we are not. we as a church live a more christian based religion than most of those who choose to say we are not christian. i vote for the person and not the religion. senator reid is mormon and i would never vote for him. i am not even sure if i would vote for romney yet but if i do its not because of his beliefs.
Report Post »crossfire
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:15pmthis is stupid
Report Post »TXPilot
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:20pmI see no problem with Christians voting for a Mormon, since many, along with people of all faiths, decided to make an uninformed trip to the voting booth last time and voted a Muslim into the White House. I just hope all people, including Christians, will be much better informed next year, before they cast their votes again.
Report Post »rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:20pmYou are either all the way Mormon or all the way Christian. Same for Catholics. Now is the time to stand against all these man made religions in Christ’s name. Religion and it’s leaders will lead you one place…. the PIT.
If your a morman thinking ‘well God has never spoken to my heart, that I have to leave the Morman church to be true ambassadors for Christ’ THIS Is IT!
Jenny Lind ESP. You! You‘r not upset since I’m attacking the Mormon faith, your upset because you know I’m right. Your frustration is the Holy spirit nugging you.
Turn your back on Mormon faith and the world it yearns for. Christ is God. Jesus is alive.
Report Post »AWESOMEONE
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:25pmIt is entirely possible that god or his angels visted ancient sumaria and created the modern day man from the neandertholl. This modern man was adamos, or adam. The adamos we we used to mine natural resources for the gods from the sky. We are there children, you can say. Afterall, the angels are likely beings because they did mate with the human race, right? Likely a race that possibly even created this planet as we know it.
Report Post »Independent-Conservative
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:33pmAll of you supposed Christians telling Kank and other mormans they aren’t Christians are hypocrites to the 100th degree. Who are you to cast judgement on someone else’s faith? Practice what you preach and love thy neighbor, whether you agree with them or not. I am appalled for you and your lack of Chrisitan principles.
Signed,
An Evangelical Christian
Report Post »Darkmoon
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:33pmLook, some of you people need to take a page out of Rev. Graham’s book. You didn’t hear him bashing the LDS people. The ones I’ve met have been really good people…outstanding actually. They have some amazing standards they try to live up to. I wish more of our youth wouldn’t drink, smoke or do drugs…or give two years of their lives for a charity they believe in. This is a story about a presidential race. Take your negative feelings of the LDS religion some place.
Report Post »marjorie faye
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:34pmA Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, coexistent with God, equal to God, eternally existent with no beginning and no end. Mormons do not believe that. They believe that both God and Christ are created beings, that God was not always God, and that Christ is Satan’s brother. That is no joke. That is exactly what they believe. They also believe that human beings can eventually become gods. Again, no joke. There is no way under the sun that is Christian. It is heresy.
Report Post »bullman76
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:40pmOne of the tennents of the LDS faith is : “We claim the aprivilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”.(Article of Faith 11)
Report Post »Members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Later Day Saints believe in Jesus Christ. We strive to live by his teachings. We have faith that through his sacrifice that we to can be saved. We are Christian. That being said, I think that we must not lose focus of the big picture. I would think that all Christians (especially evangelical Christians)would rather see the country presided over by a Mormon than what we currently have now. Four more years of the current regime will do more to divide and polarize this country than a Mormon president ever would. We are currently suffering under a regime of Godless, Marxist Statists. Everyday we lose more freedoms and liberties. This is done to us and we are told that it is for our own good or the good of the nation as a whole. Thus, by restricting our freedoms, our country is being stifled. This country was founded on the premise of individual freedom. A cornerstone of Mormonism is the belief in Free Agency or in other words, the belief that man should be free to choose for himself. Being a Mormon myself, I would say that my first choice will not be Romney. I like Bachman, however, if it comes down down to Romney vs. Obama, it is a no brainer.
mils
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:53pm@martinez012577
Report Post »Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:36pm
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I suppose next you”ll tell us your a theologian.. you should take up the subject of christianity with Thomas Monson..also, the church today is not the church of years gone by.. They are a good generous people, who say they are christians and you are not in any position to tell them they are not..
Sounds like you just might be excommunicated or got jilted by one of those pretty little morman girls…hhm???
The-Monk
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:54pmYou guys are funny. Even Capt. Kirk said that Mr. Spock, “had a little too much LDS back in the 60′s” and Mr. Spock turned out alright. What happens to each of you if all of you are wrong?
Report Post »Lssmc
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:56pmI don‘t think we have to worry about Romney’s Mormonism. No true Mormon would wage a $10,000 bet on anything! I kinda feel like Franklin Graham. Many presidents in our history have governed without prejudice. Except Obama. You can see right through his Muslim roots. My God! His father was Muslim, his mother only married Muslim men. Israel, has been put on the back burner by this president. I pray we retire him before he destroys Israel.
Romney might not be my first choice, but he’s a lot better than what we now have.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:57pmAnAppealToGod, I’m not sure what you think it is that I did not read or understand. You quote two LDS sources and make no commentary as if we know what you are insinuating. Why don’t you clarify what you interpret those quotes to mean? Are you saying we believe that man is saved by works? If so you are the one that needs to read and understand. We do not believe we are saved by works but we do believe that we can not be saved without “doing” the will of God. He tells us to keep the commandments and that implies outward ordinances as well as being and doing good.
Let me guess. You believe you were saved on a specific year, day and hour. Is that right? All you had to do was say a few words acknowledging Christ as your savior.
Report Post »JesusDied2SaveU
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 9:00pmFor all Mormons who are serious about finding the truth please, please, please read and/or view these two links at least: http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormon-Christian.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i29nHMGOdA&feature=share
Report Post »bluelock
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 9:07pmChristians believe Jesus has always existed and always will. He is God and literally one with the Father and Holy Spirit. Mormons believe Jesus was born into existence from the Father (God) and his wife (therefore He didn’t exist from eternity past) and is Satan’s brother. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. The differences are not trivial, they are fundamental. Mormonism uses the same terminology but changes the definitions in order to sound like Christian theology, but you‘ll find it’s completely different when you define the terms.
Report Post »Stopit
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 9:20pmDuring the ratification process of the constititution, some of the founding fathers had to promise the baptist contingents that there would be added the bill of rights which would secure religious freedoms, protections from the establishment of a state church, and liberty of speech, assembly, etc., or there would have been no constitutional agreement from some of the colonies.
Securing religious liberty, speech, and practice with all the bill of rights should be foundational in the leader we choose for our nation. With that said, God ordains the “powers that be”, and super rules over all the nations of the earth. Our current leader is by his appointment. We better pray for a leader that will be vigilent to secure our liberties.
I disagree mildly with Franklin Graham here. The religionists were who the baptists feared taking away their personal liberty at our founding. A leader that truly knows God, and is not just religious, is much preferred when national testing times come. Knowing how to run a business or country is not enough, and character & spiritual light rooted in freedom matters much more than ability. But in reality, how many Presidents have we had for which that was true? Maybe that has some bearing on why and where we are.
Report Post »IslandMama
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 9:20pmThat is just not true. Mormons are Christians. They believe that Jesus was the son of God, that He came to earth as man in the flesh and died on the cross to save us from our sins. They just also believe other things that traditional Christians – evangelicals if you will – do not. I have had very close friends who are Mormon and have spent countless hours talking this through with them to understand it. Go talk to some Mormons … you will see.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 9:35pmMormons are not Christians because they aren’t even theists, as the “God” they believe in was not always God and did not create everything that ever has been. Their god is one who was born in another universe and became a god and created this universe, or something to that effect. But who created him? Some other god from long, long ago (in a galaxy far, far away).
This concept of a god is less than even the that of the Muslims. At least they believe in a supreme deity who created everything and who existed before anything else existed.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 9:38pmMartinez you are wrong. Mormon’s are Christians. They believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior as do Christians. They read the Bible also, but they have the Book of Mormon which tells another side of the story. People refer to them as a cult only because Joseph Smith is looked upon as a prophet by the Mormon Church and the Mormon church restricts only members to enter the Temple. It does not matter whether you agree with their beliefs or not. As someone who has family members that are Mormon I think I know. I am a Christian, I grew up Presbyterian even though my dad grew up Mormon. He changed for my mother.
So until you know from experience, I think I would shut up and not make a fool of myself.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:06pm@favored
Fair question to question my reason for posting. One of my best friends is a Mormon. We have religious talks fairly often and one day he sent me the Book of Mormon. So I started to look into it and what the church stands for. I was shocked. I couldnt believe my friend of nine years, smart guy with a degree could be thinking this was ok in accordence with the Bible. The deeper I got into the book the more I found complete contridictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
I post on here since I feel its my duty to help and give information about a certain group. I dont need to post on here about Muslims, Hindu, or Scientologists mainly because they dont pretend to be Christian faiths. They dont go door to door in Christian neighborhoods trying to get people to convert to their faith.
As far as my friend, I am gathering the proper amount of information to give to him. I understand excommunication from the Mormon faith is hard. He is married with children so I do not take what I am doing lightly. I understand that if chooses to leave the church he was born into it could have major ramifications on his life. His familly could quit talking to him, he could lose his wife, or he could lose the friends he has made in the church.
Report Post »stage9
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:08pmDNA VS THE BOOK OF MORMON
Report Post »http://sourceflix.com/dna-vs-the-book-of-mormon/
NYHuguenot
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:14pmMormons disavow all of the teachings of the church since the first century. They deny that there is one God. They deny that Jesus is God incarnate but state that he is a created God by another god. The say that all men can become gods and get their own universe to create and/or rule. That say matter is eternal. They deny original sin, In the book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25:23 says Jesus is an insurance policy providing salvation “after all we can do”. There is no assurance of salvation. It creates many rules to follow making making works the true saving power.This list could on and on. It is very man centered and more closely resembles Islam than Christianity
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:16pmMormons are not Christian, period!
Not all who say Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said it.
Just because you use the name, or rather attach the name to your silly invented religion, does not make it Christian, or of Christ.
Mormonism has no connection, historical or otherwise, to the Old Testament or New Testament. Any claim otherwise is pure invention.
Mormonism is just one of many faux religions from New York’s “Burned Over District.” I wouldn’t be surprised if Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith are related in some way.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:31pm@Kankokage
I also know that through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a fulness of the Gospel has been restored…
———
Restored? Where in the Bible does it teach that God is an evolved spirit from another planet? That Jesus was the offspring of physical intercourse between that evolved spirit and Mary? The Book of Mormon doesn’t restore anything; it changes the identity of God, while retaining the names ascribed to him in the Bible. You wasted your time praying to God about the Book of Mormon, because it contradicts his written Word, the Bible.
Key Mormon Heresies:
1) God is one of many evolved spirits: “…you have to learn to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you, – namely, by going from one small degree to another…” Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 4, 1844.
2) The Father (an evolved spirit) had intercourse with Mary and begot Jesus: “Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children…”Brigham Young, ibid, v. 15, p, 770, 1853.
Sorry, dude, you are a polytheist, and your prophet was an adulterer and a heretic. Call yourself what you like. Your god is not my God.
Report Post »Luke611
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:34pm@Martinez… “a” and the word “lot” is two words.
Why would Christ be defined as the firstborn in Hebrews 1:6 ?
Are you willing to apply the same standards to Protestants as you do Mormons?
Then read of Roger Williams
Roger Williams, a former Anglican and a Puritan chaplain, established the initial Baptist church in America, The First Baptist Church in Providence, Rhode Island (now the First Baptist Church in America) in 1638. Williams’ views of theology were studiously refined and defined as Calvinistic Baptist with strong agreement in antipedobaptist (Anabaptist), a possible influence from Katherine Scott and Anne Hutchinson.
Report Post »It is of historical note Roger Williams was only briefly Baptist. He was convinced that the ordinances, having been lost in the Apostasy (when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire), could not be validly restored without a special Divine commission. He declared: “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.”
The-Monk
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:47pmLuke611
@Luke611
…@Martinez… “a” and the word “lot” is two words.
Try… “are two words.”
Wow, are you guys are really silly tonight. What if both sides (points of view) are incorrect?
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:52pmKrypotonite,
That quote from Brigham Young is hilarious. It’s as if he thinks we believ the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in the womb unconsciously, like he can’t help himself when he enters a young woman. Did he think the Spirit was just a blind baby making spirit that God sent down?
It shows what a poorly educated man he was. Truly a religious illiterate. That is the theological sophistication of a four year old. And I do not mean child like. I mean ignorant and unable to handle non-materialist thinking.
Mormonism‘s basic cosmogeny really isn’t very far above that of ancient polytheism or maybe even animism.
This is the problem with Mormonism and with Mormons. Most of them know these wacky beliefs are there, but they try and hide them pretending they are just a different kind of Christian like Pentecostals or even the Amish. But they aren’t. They’re a whole different kettle of fish.
I think that is one reason that a lot of people don’t trust Romney. He has the same level of dissembling about what he really believes POLITICALLY as most Mormons do about their faith. I always feel I am being sold a line when A Mormon talks to me about faith, like he is being anything but completely honest. There’s stuff he is deliberately hiding. Same with Romney when it comes to his politics.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:26pmMartinez;
“Do you believe through works you can become exalted to the highest level of Heaven and become a god yourself? ”
While mormons do believe that we will all be judged according to our works, they do not believe that works save. “21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.” (Mosiah 2). It is through the atoning blood of the Lamb of God, the very Jesus Christ, the great I AM, that one can achieve exaltation. Obedience to the laws and ordiances of the gospel are what gives man access to God’s grace. God has always bdemanded obedience and reprentence has always been necessary when man falls short. And, man most defiintely has fallen short.
Is exaltation real? Yes. It is becoming a “joint-heir” with Christ. It is also done by and through Christ.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:30pm@ISLESFORDIAN – Amen to that! Well said! Romney has a clean cut look, like those fella’s who come to your door in their white shirts and black ties. But when they speak, they’re hiding something. When you ask probing questions about their Book of Mormon, there is always a side-skirting of the issue, deferring to “faith” to deliver them from the difficulties which stem from the un-truth of their message. At some point they will say it, “You just gotta pray and have faith, and God’s spirit will show you.”…i.e, “Don’t ask me those tough questions, cuz I know the kind of hotwater I will get into if I attempt to answer your questions with depth and honesty.”
Politicians are good at this kind of side-skirtinig. Mormon politicians are extra good at it because they were well trained in their white-shirt, black-tie, politicing they call evangelism.
The mere fact that he is a Mormon shows Romney to have a huge integrity problem…and it ain’t fixed with *faith*.
Report Post »JesusFollower
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:31pmSo, if I say that I don‘t believe in the Book of Mormon and that I don’t believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, are you willing to call me a Mormon?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:32pmTroninthemorning;
“The true mormon theology is not sound; meaning the plan of salvation. People need to read the Bible and ask Christ into their life.”
Asking that Christ comes into an individual’s life is the very foundation of Mormon theology. Reading the Bible is an excellent source to come to know of Christ. It was for me. The LDS halso have an open canon of doctrine and so inclde scripture alongside the Bible. Thisi s not “adding to” the bible in the sense that the Bible warns. For the Bible itself does not say, “just read the bible”. Sola scriptura is not biblical but philosophical. What one needs to do is to seek God and to seek how to serve Him. That through the Holy Spirit that individual is guided to truth and sanctified by living God’s truth.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:37pmMormonism proved – http://sourceflix.com/dna-vs-the-book-of-mormon/
Report Post »conservator
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:53pmThe Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. Their whole church revolves around the teachings of Jesus Christ found in the Bible. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, the atonement of Christ in the garden and on the cross. The resurrection of Christ that all may resurrect again.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:00amEliasm;
“One man doesn’t marry more than one woman. In the beginning of “Man” God created Adam (one man, One spirit “Man”), then God took a rib of spirit from Adam, and closed up the *flesh, then that rib *mist spirit from Adam went into a multitude of people called “Help meet and wife, and woman.” ”
Here’s when King David wasa very righteous man: ” 7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.” (2 Samuel 12) Here’s some passages about Abraham: ” 3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.” (Gen 16); “1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.” (Gen 25). For whatever reason, there most definitely have been timeswhere the Lord has allowed men to marry more than one wife. Thisi s hardly unbiblical to say and thus hardly unchristian.
Report Post »Kankokage
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:03amI go out and have a splendid night, only to come back and find personal insults at me and my faith. Way to go. So Christlike of you!
But, alas, this is a lost argument. I apologize for even stepping in and trying to defend against what I feel are baseless, illogical, and outright slanderous attacks against my faith. I probably should have just let the hatred spew forth from the mouths of those that claim to know Christ. But I will not, nor can I ever, disavow or reject the witness that God Himself has given me in my heart that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true, that the Book of Mormon is true scripture, and that through continual repentance my sins have been and can continually be forgiven. You can tell me I’m a liar and a brainwashed zombie, but if I reject what I know to be true, then I am no better off than Judas.
Finally, notice, if you will, that I have not levied such an accusation against any of the anti-Mormon detractors here, that any of them aren’t Christians. Maybe you all should take that as an example, if anything, of how we wish to be treated in kind. And I prefer Kanko to Kank. Personal preference.
Report Post »AZ_Mike
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:21amI would rather have a mormon than what ***** in the whitehouse now.
Report Post »gordonknapp
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:45amJesus said to ‘beware of false prophets that come in my name’. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. BEWARE!
Report Post »Hobbs57
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:52am@ Martinez, Evangelicals as yourself, actually, you yourself right at this moment after reading your bigotry, is the reason I will never ever go to a church such as yours again. No, you know what,it is the fact that there are more like you who posted as well that assure me there is entire churches of people who believe like you, and is the reason I will never even consider the path of salvation you represent. Great job, you have done an excellent missionary job carrying the message of Jesus Christ. If you really believe that fear of not believing is what God wants or Christ taught, then maybe you are speaking to same one Jesus had in the desert during his 40 days, or Eve in the garden of Eden. You know the one who has rein over the kingdom of earth, that is the flesh. Fear only exists as a result of life, that is mortality. The spirit knows nothing of fear, only faith. Faith is love and trust. For you to judge those who are Mormon and to tell them their faith is no good or not Christian, is to claim yourself as the very Jews who had charged Jesus with blasphemy. It is you who spread the message that he was not the son of God and that to follow him was to be part of a cult. Seriously, the left hates Christians because of that crap, trust me, I am in college. I can’t even defend your ignorance, how do I ? I know my God knows we all have our journey in the desert in this life, we must in order to know Christ in our heart and love God because we love him, no out of FEAR !
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:30amIslefordian;
“Mormons are not Christians because they aren’t even theists, as the “God” they believe in was not always God and did not create everything that ever has been. Their god is one who was born in another universe and became a god and created this universe, or something to that effect. But who created him? Some other god from long, long ago (in a galaxy far, far away).”
What are you talking about? Here’s official Mormon doctrine on the creation:
http://lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-creator?lang=eng
Where do you find anything remotely close to teaching that God was born in a Star Wars universe? Does it also teach that God hyperspaced over here on a circular transport ship? Where does it remotly teach that God did not create all things? The only thing these in that aspect is that God “created” all things with matter apparently already existing. But you can find orthodox Jews who believe similarly for the bible does not teach ex-nihilo. ex-nihilo is a philosophy regarding the creation; not a biblical doctrine. Not believing it does not make on unchristian.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:40amWSGAC & Stage 9;
Using DNA or any other of man’s science to “prove” or “disprove” any faith is really foolish. Man‘s science is not God’s wisdom; nor can any man possibly know all tings that God knows. Presenting man’s science as if you were omniscient inthat science is foolishness and about the most unscientific positions you can possibly present. Also, at the very least, please present Haplogroup X into your arguments and please stop rendering that which is Ceasar’s unto God. It doesn’t work that way.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#x
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:52amTketterer;
“Wake up America, Romney =Obama in false prophet sheeps clothing. We are being duped big time. Mormons have infiltrated this govt in order to bring the “Kingdom of god” into existence.”
Huh? I think you’re a reasonable person. Please do not prove me wrong.
“12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” Also, ” 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” (Articles of Faith). The law is the law. We as citizens are to uphold it.
“80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.” (D&C 101). Mormons believe intheir own official doctrine that the Constitution was brought forth by God. This includes checks and balances for preventing any one group to gain too much power as well as establishing no official religion.
It’s not the Mormons who need to wake up. I think it’s Tricia Erickson and those like her.
Report Post »gobiemeister
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:59amI too am a Latter-Day Saint and talking to people who blind their minds will never be convinced. ELIASIM, oh ye of little faith, I percieve you seek for signs. Well, look up at the heavens. Not until the last 20 years have we been given the knowledge to see beyond our own universe and beyound our Milky Way. We thought that we were it. The linke contain an image that was taken by Hubble from a small patch of the sky that revealed an astonishing 10,000 galaxies! Each one full of billions of stars as the sands of the sea, just like ours! Each one 100000-120000 light years in diameter with Super Massive Governing stars in their centers that control the orbits of their billions of stars and companion planets! We have been given a view by our Father-in-Heaven in these last days that is miraculous. The simple mind of man cant even begin to comprehend it! If you and I are created in his image and the pinnacle of His creation, and as all these galaxies exist for that same purpose, it stands to reason that we are not alone and that there are many people out their inhabiting worlds without number. All for what purpose? What does HE want you to become? Open your eyes and behold the Glory of God!
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/tours/tour-hudf/
http://universe-beauty.com/Space-photos/Earth-from-space/Galaxies-Hubble-Ultra-Deep-Field-Partial-5489p.html/(mode)/search/(keyword)/hubble+ultra+deep+field+1920
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:00amMartinez;
“So lets recap, in Galatians its says no other gospel even if it comes from a angel is real and any other is cursed by God. Moroni as a resurrected being brings Joseph Smith a new gospel and you think its ok. The book of Mormon clearly tries to contridict the Bible.”
What contradiction? Continue on with the introduction to the Book of Mormon and you’ll read, “Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.” That’s hardly “another gospel” but thee gospel. As part of thee gospel, Mormons believe, “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” (Article of Faith 13). There is good in all religions and that is what the LDS focus on. Yes, the LDS believe they have the restored gospel of Jesus Christ but theirs is not a message to go forth and denounce all other faths; but rather share what they believe and invite all who are interested to worship with them and through the power of the Holy Spirit, all may know for themselves that it is true.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:01amMartinez;
“You bring up works as way to get to Heaven or the only way to Heaven. Nice try, there is only one way to Heaven.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.” — Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Acts are not required. Nor do they get you to Heaven.’
They are not required except when they are. “26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2)
Report Post »WeDontNeedNoSteeninBadges06
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:04am“Graham said the shape the country is in could be ‘God’s judgement,‘ and that a ’new crop’ of politicians is needed to pull America out of its current state.”
That Mormon is not among them … for a couple of reasons (both of them obvious, so no need to state the obvious).
Report Post »MuskratProblem
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:50amDa*mit, it is stupid arguments like this is why people like Obama get elected. I really do not care what his religion is. Mormons do not fly planes into buildings, nor do they chop off hands for stealing, make women wear ninja costumes, wiki even told me that they have not practiced polygamy in over 100 years. Band together and get rid of the tyrant in office. I vote for the name opposite of Obama, I see it as the lesser of two evils.
Report Post »Jim AZ
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 3:12amWay to start-off the usual scrappiness, there, Baiko!
Report Post »I noticed, Franklin talked about “skills” rather than principles.
How could a preacher skip an opportunity to talk about principles???
Like, honesty, integrity, incorruptibility, consistency, honor, fidelity…. OH! Must be ’cause it would get MORE voters for that OTHER guy… What was his name???
kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 3:30amIsles,
I don’t think most Mormons are intentionally dishonest. Yes, their leaders purposefully “suppress the truth in unrighteousness,” but most of the common folk are simply deceived not because they are unaware of the mythology behind Mormonism (or any other cult), but because for some uncanny reason they find it credible. If one third of the angels chose to follow Satan even though they were living in the presence of Almighty God, it comes as no surprise that so many among fallen humanity are entrapped by the devil’s lies.
Romney does not appear to be a fervent Mormon; however, the same can be said about Obama regarding “his Muslim faith,” yet without question Islam has influenced many of Hussein’s presidential decisions. We are deluded if we think our individual belief systems can be set aside when we make daily decisions, all the more so since a multitude of like-minded believers offer the support and/or apply the necessary pressure to keep that belief system alive and productive. I don’t know how much power Mormonism would wield through Romney if he were elected president, but I am willing to bet it wouldn´t be anywhere near as devastating for America and the world as communist-atheism and Islam with Obama at the helm.
Report Post »cozmo
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 3:52amTo all who are arguing about a religion may I remind you of Benjamin Franklin saying, “When a religious people quarrel about religion or hungry people about their victuals it looks as if they had not much of either about them.”
And also what Washington and his deeds showed us which is that as long as a religion made someone better and they were upstanding people he would fight for them (He did for a long time). Washington believed that a man had to worship according to his own conscience not what someone told them was correct. Providence would make that known to the individual man for his own life. and the quote in a letter to a relative about even the truest foundation can be corrupted by the evilness of man seeking his own power.
So live washington’s creed of freedom of religion without persecution of what label you are under because that is between yourself and God. And truthfully even if someone worships differently than me but it helps them live closer to God great I am going to need my own route to get closer to God. But I cannot judge others in what they see as better for them, i can only treat them as a Christian and that is with love.
Report Post »TexasKnight
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:07amSorry, but while I respect many mormons, they are not christian.
Report Post »You will not find anywhere in the bible that God is just an exalted man.
You will not find that you can pray your ancestors into heaven.
You will not find that you can earn your way into heaven.
You will not find Jesus saying he would make an appearance and produce tablets of gold.
Mormons are Mormons. Just as Muslims add to the Bible and consider Jesus an important figure, they to are not Christians.
That said, I wish my fellow Christians were half as dedicated and moral as most mormons I have met.
I am not sure why Mormons would want to be considered Christians.
To answer the question in the article, of course evangelicals can vote for a mormon. I have seen nothing in Mormanism that would disqualify. If their religion taught something against Christian values, like sharia law, then a no vote would be required. Everything a Mormon would vote for is what Christians would vote for. If it was not for Romney care, I would be voting for him….
3L
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:20amGive me a break, every time we have a story about Gov. Romney do we have to debate weather Mormons are Christians. The question is “would you vote for a Mormon to be President?
Report Post »I would
JJ Coolay
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:27amDon’t put God in a box.
Report Post »I don’t believe the message of the Mormon church or LDS is scripturally on mark, but I do believe there are Mormons that are saved. Just like I believe there are Catholics that are saved.
But all of that is moot.
We need a man that will lead our country out of the mess we’re in. We need an economist. Not a Christian, per se.
Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:36amSo Darren,
Did God create the heavens and the earth BEFORE he was exalted or AFTER? If it was BEFORE how exactly was he not God already? If it was AFTER then he must have been living in some other universe, one which he did not create. Who created THAT universe? It stands to reason. He either always was God, the Creator of all that is and ever was, or he is merely a demiurge and not the Eternal Creator that Jews. Christians and Muslims believe in.
The concept of God being an exalted man means that Mormonism isn’t a theistic religion because THEOS means the God who always was God.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:29amAnd just to be clear:
When I say that Mormons aren’t Christian I am speaking of their theology, not their faith. I am not saying that they are wicked or that they ahte the truth about God. Most of them are simply deceived because they were born into that faith and knew no other or because they never knew the truth in their heart even while growing up in a nominally Christian church. I am certainly not saying that they are going to hell (or that I wouldn’t vote for them).
In fact, I am willing to believe that many of them, and even atheists like Hitchens who hated the idea of God, may be received into heaven before a “Christian” like Jim Wallis, whose creedal faith is sound but whom I suspect may be like the fools who say in their heart that there is no God. A man may profess faith in God while acting like he owns Him. And as an Episcopalian I can attest for a fact that Romney is more Christian than the head bishop in our church because I know she doesn’t believe the faith that is still officially ours. She doesn’t belive that Jesus really rose from the dead.
God knows the heart. It is for him to judge those things. But we can know the theology and whther what someone belives is the Truth or not. Mormonism isn’t the Truth. It’s a lie, a BIG lie, just like Islam. That doesn’t make people mwho have fallen for the lie damned. It just means that their religion isn’t Christian, because Christian means the follower of Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Report Post »louise
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:42amAmos 8:11,12
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:32am@JJ Coolay
I agree with you that some Mormons are saved. It is Christ who saves, and he saves us not according to our knowledge of him but according to our faith. And God alone knows the faith that is in a person’s heart.
And I agree that “we need an economist, not a Christian, per se”, though a patriot also would be a good thing.
But about this: “Don’t put God in a box”
What if God Himself made the box so that He could get inside it and tell everyone, “Look! I’m over here in this box”? What if he had others make it for him (the Temple)?
Or what if he made a “box” of flesh, that we know as Jesus, son of Mary? Maybe the only way we can see God is when He boxes Himself in.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:11am@DARREN
Your words: “Using DNA or any other of man’s science to “prove” or “disprove” any faith is really foolish. Man‘s science is not God’s wisdom; nor can any man possibly know all tings that God knows. Presenting man’s science as if you were omniscient inthat science is foolishness and about the most unscientific positions you can possibly present. Also, at the very least, please present Haplogroup X into your arguments and please stop rendering that which is Ceasar’s unto God. It doesn’t work that way.”
REPLY: You don‘t know what you’re talking about, and yours is typical of one who has no answer to the questions. When you have no answer, call the question foolish and then claim God on your side because you have faith. Well faith doesn’t do it. The evidence is clear. There is NO…NONE…NADA middle eastern genetic material found in native americans (ie. the supposed Lamanites). It isn’t there Darren, and faith doesn’t cover for the lie.
There is also NO..NONE..NADA archeological confirmation of the Book of Mormon. Where is this ancient culture, and writings to go along with this invented history.
There is no linguistic evidence for it either.
You believe a lie to be the truth, simply because the name Jesus is attached to it. Faith will not turn a lie into truth Darren. The book of Mormon crumbles under the weight of its lies.
Don’t be fooled by the baloney from Moroni, for moron is in his name!
Report Post »WakeUp
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:57amWhy? Are you opposed to people that are honestly and deeply commited to their beliefs? I guess only “politically correct” Christians are ok?
I don’t care if a President is Mormon, Chritian, Jewish, or Muslem – provided they are capable of doing the job of President honestly. That is to ENFORCE and DEFEND the Constitution.
I would rather vote for someone that is open, honest and committed to their beleifs than someone that uses the tag of Christian but won’t really commit to what it means.
Report Post »FreedomPurveyor
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:17amWow. I am absolutely stunned at the amount of anti-Mormon garbage coming out of so many so-called Christians.
There is so much ignorance in this thread that I don’t even know where to begin. I guess a good place to start is why Mormons are hated, and have been since the founding of the LDS Church, by mainstream Christians.
The premise of the founding of the LDS Church is that there is a second testament of Jesus Christ, meant to maintain the integrity of the original Church of Christ. Mormons maintain that there was a period of falling away, where priesthood authority was lost. From that point on, Christians relied on the interpretation of men to learn the scriptures, principles, and ordinances of Christianity.
Now, if you’re a Catholic, of course you don’t believe that ever happened. If you aren’t a Catholic, then you have to accept that at some point, the Catholic church lost the whole and true gospel. If that is the case, then Martin Luther and John Calvin still had only the interpretation of man to form their respective denominations. This means that it is impossible that the full gospel was restored.
Naturally, most people do not like being told that their beliefs are wrong. Mormons told everyone that they, and only they, have the gospel of the church which was originally founded by Christ. This is why every denomination MUST hate Mormons, and why most of you have been taught that Mormons are not Christian. It is in every denomination’s interest of surv
Report Post »spreadthefaith
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:30amNewt has stronger pro-life record, promises to defund planned parenthood and is against non traditional marriage, Why wouldn’t christians be voting for the candidate who promises to take the most action to protect life?Romney shouldn’t be the first choice for christians. Peole are afraid of Newt because he will make good on his promises and won’t be pushed around by the republicans or the democrats. As for Glenn, Conservatives do not need to be afraid of Newt because he didn’t support anything but Ragan type issues when he was Speaker of the house. There is only one Reagan but we can vote for another President that holds his same values and same determination.
Report Post »JPDevuyst
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:56amWow I can’t believe how many people on this thread are just plain bigots. Also on how many people (both LDS and Non-LDS) don’t really know what the Mormon Church teaches. First of all, Martinez and Kank need to both know that the entire concept of “God is a glorified man” yadda yadda is NOT LDS DOCTRINE. It originated as speculation by a high ranking leader of the Church, and because some members of the Church and some enemies of the Church can’t be bothered to do any research, this is suddenly “Gospel Truth” to LDS. The argument of whether or not Mormons are Christian comes down to this — Evangelicals believe that anybody who disagrees with their theology isn’t Christian. Its as simple as that. To an Evangelical, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Catholics, Anglicans, and any other denomination which claims a “Christian” path of faith will never be called Christian. That is it. Amen.
Report Post »ILRobb
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:24pmFaith1029, you need to find better sources. Ed Decker was renounced by even his fellow anti-mormon authors as distorting issues and misrepresenting their beliefs. How bad do you have to be to cause that? He was also an adulterer and abuser of his first wife which is the true reason he left the LDS church. Nice try though.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:29pm@Freedompurveyor
“If you aren’t a Catholic, then you have to accept that at some point, the Catholic church lost the whole and true gospel.”
Uh, no we don’t. We claim that the catholic church OBSCURED it with new teachings. Nothing was “lost”.
“If that is the case, then Martin Luther and John Calvin still had only the interpretation of man to form their respective denominations. This means that it is impossible that the full gospel was restored.”
They had the Bible and an understanding of it in its original languages. They had the writings of the early Fathers of the church to guide them in recognizing how far catholicism had drifted from the simplicity of the original faith. Everything that the Reformers needed to see the original faith was inside the church all along. It only needed to be dusted off.
It is a signature of a NEW faith that it comes with new revelations purported to be from God. The Reformers were not seeking a NEW faith but a restored one.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:49pm“To an Evangelical, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Catholics, Anglicans, and any other denomination which claims a “Christian” path of faith will never be called Christian. That is it. Amen.”
Well that would be news to evangelical Anglicans like myself. I know there are certain types of fundamentalist Christians who deny the Christian faith of anyone who deviates in the slightest from their beliefs, but Evangelicalism has never been like that. Charles Wesley was an Anglican, and would be ranked as a Evangelical or Charismatic Christian by many today. William Wilberforce was an Evangelical Anglican.
And many if not most Evangelicals today recognize Catholics as Christians even if they believe that catholioc faith obscures the Gospel with false teachings about Mary, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc.
Mormons, JWs and l to a lesser extent Seventh Day Adventists are still held to be non-Christian or quasi Christian by Anglicans, Catholics and Evangelicals because they have created new scriptures that stand on a par with the Bible and because they have departed from central aspects of Christian doctrine involving the nature of Christ. Adventists are primarily guilty of the first sin, much less so the other.
It‘s amazing how you Mormons come accusing us of not knowing the truth about your faith when you make clear that you haven’t a clue about us. You only read your own sources and have zero curiosity about what others believe.
Report Post »Kankokage
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:04pmAgain, it isn’t prudent to tell a Mormon what they believe, when it is false. It is LDS doctrine that God is of the same species as us, and it is LDS doctrine that man can become exalted even as He is. This is not up for disputation. Trust me, I’m a Mormon and I kinda know what Mormons believe.
Second, there is considerable linguistic, archeological, and historical evidence of the Book of Mormon societies existing in the Eastern United States/Southern Canada from 2000 BC to about 400 AD. These societies are known archeologically as the Adena Indians (2000-600 BC – Jaredite timeline) and the Hopewell Indians (600 BC – 400 AD – Nephite timeline). Their structures are found all over Ohio, Inidiana, and Illinois, their existence is given in the eastern Native American tribes’ histories, and their language has been partially preserved, most distinctly in the Micmac tribe, whose language has been called by non-Mormon scholars as “reformed egyptian”. Artifacts and armors described in the Book of Mormon are found in many of the burial mounds around the Ohio valley, and mass graves filled with the bones of men, women and children are found from Palmyra, NY all the down to Kentucky. The Native tribes of the Eastern US talk about a light-skinned people that was very advanced, and that the Indians destroyed these people in about 400 AD.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:42pmIsles,
In fact, I am willing to believe that many of them, and even atheists like Hitchens who hated the idea of God, may be received into heaven before a “Christian” like Jim Wallis… God knows the heart.
——–
Come on, Isles, the gospel is so simple and clear, even fools can understand it if they are willing to give up their self-centered ways: “Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:12). Hitchens rejected God and “made Him out to be a liar.” Sure, there is the *slight* possibility that he repented on his deathbed, but it is very slim. Quite simply, his heart was hardened. Hitchens not only refused God’s grace time and again, but he was an atheist activist who led many others astray. When he became terminally ill, he had time to reconsider his human frailty, yet he persisted in denying God.
Regarding Mormons, no one can enter the presence of the Most Holy God unless he is cleansed from sin, and only the Jesus of the Bible can atone for sin . We are absolutely called to judge/discern who follows the biblical Jesus and who doesn’t. In 2 Cor. 11:4, Paul strongly reprimands the saints in Corinth for failing to do so:
==> “For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.” (Cont.)
Report Post »HippoNips
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:49pmTranslation…..Graham….Morons are just as bad as Catholics as far as Im concerned.
He might be right.
Report Post »Barrettoc
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:53pmI live in Arkansas. My neighbor, an evangelical, told me he had to “rebuke” two guys who came to his house a couple of days ago. He was upset. Said they were “false prophets”. Turned out they were a couple of rather likeable Mormons.
Report Post »There is a strong resistance among the Christian right against Mormonism where I live and, right or wrong, I don’t see them turning out for one in the general election.
Bluebonnet
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:55pmJust look at the likes we’ve voted for in the past! But as to who the true God is, I can only quote the Bible and have to agree with all it says.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God: John 1:1.
(This says the Word was with God and was God, and the Word is also Jesus.) Then in John 10:30 it says: I and my Father are ONE.
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us: John 1:14 (again, the Word is Jesus)
For there are 3 that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are ONE! And the 3 that bear witness in Earth: The Spirit, the Water and the Blood and
these 3 agree in ONE. 1st John 5, 7&8.
Jude 18 There would be mockers in the last time who walk after their own ungodly lusts. (yup)
James 2:19 Thou belivest that there is ONE GOD does well. The devils also believe and tremble!
Luke 21:36 Watch & pray you may be worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son of Man (Jesus)
God said it, I believe it, case closed.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:19pmAs I said, Kryptonite, God knows the heart. Neither you nor I can see into a man’s heart or penetrate the mystery of the soul to know what God knows and see what He sees. All we can know for sure is the Gospel He has given us, to preach the truth to others and recognize the lies that enslave them.
You may be right about Hitchens. But you may be wrong as well. We will not know until we are there. Since there is a chance, no matter how small I remain content to let God sort it out, and I know that God is merciful. If he can find a way to save a sinner He will.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:34pm@ISLESFORDIAN (CONT.)
Notice the possible deceptions: another Jesus, a different spirit, or a different gospel. Any and/or all of those lead to a cult.
John goes a step further regarding false brethren:
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. (2 John 1: 10)”
The gospel was given to the apostles by Jesus Christ himself, not by angels, since some angels serve Satan. Most Mormons have heard the truth, but like John says, “We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.”
We are called to be separate and holy unto God, and to warn others against those who spread deception, lest we be judged by God as being wicked too. You are being lured into the world’s concept of love and tolerance, aka PC, brother. :)
P.S. My point regarding Hitchens is that there is only one way for a sinner to be saved, and it looks like he rejected it. Whether he made a confession of faith on his deathbed, I don’t know, but that is the only choice he or any other man has.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 3:54pmAgain, listen to some ex mormons who are molecular biologists about the evidence on American Indians which absolutely shatters the idea that they are descendents of Israelites. So let’s hear from some believing Mormons who can counter these men. http://sourceflix.com/dna-vs-the-book-of-mormon/
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:04pmKryptonite,
I hope I don’t sound all squishy liberal here :-) Heaven forfend!
The case of one who rejects God all the way to the end seems utterly clear cut. And yet…I bow to the reality that it is only clear cut if God says it is. The mystery of Man‘s Fee Will and God’s Sovereignty, and of the whole intersection of God’s eternity with the space-time continuum is too great a mystery for me to claim to understand it all. So I reserve hope for a good many things trusting in God’s Mercy. So, I won’t be surprised if Hitchens is NOT among the blessed. But if I find that he IS I certainly won’t turn to God and say, “But you said….” :-)
Report Post »audiemurphy
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:11pmAs I read the posts from anti- Mormon Christians I am left with the sad feeling that the Christian spirit of tolerance which the founding fathers of the United States of America hoped would be a blessing and set America apart from any nation ever created is lost! This is why Obama type presidents get elected and thrive. A wedge has been placed between those who honestly in their own way and according to how their conscience dictates strive to follow christ.
Report Post »To pass judgement on one group of people’s intents and faith and elevating ones self over the intentions of another is a pridefull judgemental stance that those who call themselves “Christians” should avoid. Jesus taught to remove the beam from thine own eye before passing judgement and trying to remove even a splinter from the eye of another.
“ By their fruits ye shall know them” evil cannot EVER bringforth good fruits !
It is normal and fair to disagree but be men and women of honour and disagree with love and respect and without judgement lest ye be judged by that same spirit which ye judge.
I may disagree with many faiths creeds And doctrines yet I know that their belief if adhered to bring them closer to God and Christ . This I celebrate and encourage.
The spirit of intolerance, mockery, and disrespect are not godly traits and any Christian behaving as such denies the teachings of Christ and loves not his fellow man and therefore must change his or her ways or stand in judgement of him who has authority to
Gazelem
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:14pmSatan is the one laughing at this joke. He laughs it up when good people insult other good people and argue over their differences. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints my life is devoted to following the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and only through his power, grace, and atonement can humanity be resurrected and return to a glorious life with our Father in Heaven forever. Let us pray that Martinez can overcome his feelings of bitterness and anger and acknowledge that while we have some different ideas about the Savior, we all still love Him and wish to serve Him. To all my fellow church members, please do not allow yourselves to be offended when people say hurtful things on these sites, let’s try to respond in love and humility even in the face of unjust and distorted criticism. I hope all Christians and good people of other faiths will join with us, as Billy Graham’s own son is willing to do, and promote fundamental values that all of us share and help one another. Thank you, and God bless you all.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:23pm@AUDIEMURPHY – You said, “As I read the posts from anti- Mormon Christians I am left with the sad feeling that the Christian spirit of tolerance which the founding fathers of the United States of America hoped would be a blessing and set America apart from any nation ever created is lost!”
G.K. Chesterton said it, “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” Meaning, tolerance is no virtue at all.
So many here seem to have been students of the Rodney King School of Theology, where the principle teaching is, “Can we all just get along?”
Beck speaks of truth, and the necessity of seeking and adhering to the truth. Yet, when it comes to Mormonism he jettisons this core conviction/value. It seems people want to give Mormon falsehood a pass, cuz Mormons are such nice people. And since they’re nice people, “can’t we all just get along?” Hang the truth; let’s all just sing kumbaya. We gotta defeat Obama, so let’s be nice!
Good freaking grief!
Beware the baloney from Moroni. Do not compromise with falsehood. Get a spine and spare us your faux attitude of pretending to be above it all.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:36pm@ISLESFORDIAN
God does not speak to his children in abstract terms, Isles. Not really. He does use typology and parables, but they remain a mystery only to the unsaved. The mystery of salvation has been fully unveiled — actually the veil of the temple was torn, from top to bottom, so the message was physically visible and clear to our puny minds.
I hope you are not implying that people can be saved beyond the grave — and you know I don’t mean near death experiences. That is not liberal theology. It’s apocryphal false doctrine, brother. We live in time, and when we die, i.e., when “the silver cord is severed” (Eccl. 12:6) our spirit man departs from our mortal body forever. By definition, faith cannot operate in eternity, and you said it well: We are saved by faith in (the biblical) Jesus.
Report Post »miklamx
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:45pmI’m a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon). “Mormon” was the name enemies of the church gave us in the 1800‘s and I’m a Christian in that I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God at least that’s who I pray through when I get down on my knees to pray. I appreciate Christians of other faiths and have a number of them that are very good family and friends. I also have very good friends that are not Christians but are good people. I hope we are able to stand together to take America back. I’ll admit that I like the fact that Romney is a man that prays, and waits to get answers to those prayers. That makes some liberals nervous but I count on Romney doing what his religion, the scriptures, and prophets have taught.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 4:59pm“I hope you are not implying that people can be saved beyond the grave”
Not quite, and I am only saying that I am leaving the door open on the possibility, if God allows, because I do not see Scripture as crystal clear on this as some make out. There is a great deal of mystery left in the reaches of God’s universe. But what I was really imagining was salvation THROUGH the grave, that when the soul is loosed from this body of sin in death that God may see something in it NOT truned against him, and save that soul for the sliver of grace that is there.
I think this may be possible for the insane. Their minds are not right. How can we know what their souls have chosen. And I reflected that insanity comes in many guizes. A man may not be in his right mind for a time. What if he died during a manic rage? And what if some emotional trauma hobbled a man’s soul so that he was angry at God and denied Him to ease his suffering? Would God not mercifully try all his life to get through to the man, to get him to let go of that pain? Yes, I think. But what if the man foolishly resisted until death? Might God not have one last shot then? Death would take the pain away and the soul would be laid bare in a way impossible in life. Maybe then, at the very gate, on its other side, God could test the soul one last time to determine its desired destination, either to life or to death.
You may think these are foolish ponderings. God will show us eventually.
Report Post »ephraim88
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:02pmWhy don’t we let Jesus himself tell us who he considers a Christian? In Matthew 25:
Report Post »“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me”.
Notice nothing in here of doctrinal fine points, was Lucifer Jesus’ brother, is the Trinity one in essence or one in purpose, are we saved by Grace alone or is faith without works dead, and so on. I know I will get a lot of flak from those quoting other scriptures, but to me Jesus’ words are very plain and I like them. The true Christian is one who shows mercy. Go and do likewise.
swiftouch
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:36pm@martinez012577 You’re an idiot. You slander Mormons and you can’t even spell “a lot” correctly. You don’t even get the point of the article…. bring in a leader that FOLLOWS CHRISTIAN VALUES. The article is NOT about whether Mormons are Christians.
Report Post »mo7888
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:42pmI don’t believe Mormons are Christians either…. but I could certainly vote for a Morman for President.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:49pmNow, to the even thornier issue of Catholic doctrine, have you ever spent time in a Catholic country? If you have, you’ll know that their so-called Christianity is firstly, inherited, and secondly, anything but Christ-centered. They worship the Virgin Mary, who BTW isn’t even the Mary of the Bible. The Mary of the Bible was a surrogate mother, meaning that God used her womb, but Jesus did not carry her genetic material or blood. She provided the baby with nutrients, oxygen and the appropriate environment to develop, and she was thus graced by God, period. The Catholic Mary is the “Mother of God,” a pagan concept that is more in line with Mormon and other polytheistic religions.
Of course some individual Catholics know the Lord and serve Him, but no thanks to the Vatican or its teachings. In fact, the Vatican never really approved of the Charismatic movement. The Catholic hierarchy has robbed God of the glory He alone is due, and is quite content teaching Catholics the precepts of men rather than the Word of God. Those Catholics who truly love the Lord will have to leave once their church openly joins the NWO.
Report Post »SFsuper49er
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 6:02pmThen your a nut
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 6:13pm“The Mary of the Bible was a surrogate mother, meaning that God used her womb, but Jesus did not carry her genetic material or blood. ”
Reeeeeealllllyyyy????!! OMG, Kryptonite, where in the world do you get that? You certainly don’t get it from the Bible. Did an “angel” tell you this?
Do we really need to enter into wacko territory here too?
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 6:24pm@ISLESFORDIAN
Report Post »“…what I was really imagining was salvation THROUGH the grave, that when the soul is loosed from this body of sin in death that God may see something in it NOT truned against him…”
——–
Good grief, I hope that is not what you teach from the pulpit. Nowhere in the NT is there a hint of that possibility, so why are you letting your mind run wild? Allowing your carnal mind to indulge in spiritual conjectures is a dangerous practice. You have a very fertile mind, friend, but that can work against you. Remember we are to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. God placed that verse in the Bible especially for guys like you. Later.
gordonknapp
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 6:35pmJesus said: BEWARE OF WOLVES COMING IN SHEEPS CLOTHING. Many false prophets shall come in my name.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 6:39pm@ISLESFORDIAN
Report Post »Reeeeeealllllyyyy????!! OMG, Kryptonite, where in the world do you get that? You certainly don’t get it from the Bible.
———–
Of course I do. Why are you swearing, man? Does the Bible not say that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit? So what do you think that means, huh? Just exactly what DO you believe, Isles? Jesus is GOD’S begotten Son — his and his alone. We have a Holy Trinity, so please leave Mary et al. out of it. If Jesus was the product of Mary’s ovum and God, then you need to consider becoming a Mormon (how ironic!). Or do you believe that Jesus was the baby of Mary and Joseph??? Well then, you are no better than your head bishop; you are still in your sins. Which one is it, Isles? I simply offered the medical facts for the Biblical account. Please explain how that is “wacko.”
BaritoneBro
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:03pmYou are all missing the point of the question. What really needs to be asked is do you want Obama, a extreme progresive who would give away our country to the one-world-governement or Mitt Romney a true American. It appears now we have two leaders for the Republican nominee; Mitt and Newt. Newt has changed his denomination three times and his wives three times. Mitt has one wife, one faith and probably more reverence for God than Newt. I for one would vote for Mitt and I’m a Southern Baptist.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:05pm@ISLESFORDIAN
Furthermore, Isles, that is why Jesus is called “the last Adam.” God was made flesh, and He literally birthed a new race:
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13). “The first Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)
In that sense, He is the “firstborn” or “first fruits” (to answer some clueless Mormon’s question here). Our body was “sown a natural body,“ but will be ”resurrected a spiritual body,” (1 Cor. 15: 44) in the likeness of the last Adam, just so you know what the wacky Bible teaches.
Report Post »indy1
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:10pmJoseph Smith asked the Savior which church he should join. He was told he should join none of them, that they were all wrong. The Angel Moroni later appeared to him and told him where the golden tablets were buried near Manchester New York containing the fullness of the gospel in the Book of Mormon. Why would posters claim Mormons are Christians when their founder very clearly said all the Church established by Jesus Christ while he was on the earth fell into an apostate condition as predicted by the apostles, and that the church could not be reestablished upon the earth merely through a reformation, but only through a restoration through the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith was clear that Mormonism stands alone from the Protestant and Catholic Church.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:12pm“Jesus was the product of Mary’s ovum and God”
Her ovum means her egg, containing her genetic code, which every mother gives to her child. What is missing is the male code, specifically the male chromosome. That had to be a divine creation, as the woman doesn’t possess it at all. So the Holy Spirit was the means by which her egg became fertilized. The Holy Spirit isn’t physical Himself, so HE isn’t the one conceiving. Mary conceived Jesus BY the Holy Spirit. As it says in Isaiah, “A virgin shall conceive”.
Jesus is the biological son of Mary. Spiritually he is the eternally begotton Son of god. Making Mary his biological mother does not bring her into the Trinity. The Trinity is the eternal Godhead, existing before time and space. Mary is a creature, as is the flesh she bore for the incarnate Son of God. Jesus of Nazareth is a man who was born 2,000 years ago. But as the Son of God he is eternal, in his divine nature.
It seems like you are bending over so hard to keep Mary from becoming an idol robbing the glory from Christ that you have slipped into an unnecessary and rather silly position. The danger of what you are proposing is that Jesus would have less of a physical connection to us. He would not be of the physical descent of Adam and would be less of a representative of our race. He would in fact be a newly created race inserted in her womb. That makes his offering of himself as a propitiation for the sin of Man less obvious.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:50pm@ISLESFORDIAN
“Conceive” simply means she became pregnant. Surrogate mothers get pregnant without their genetic code being involved in the pregnancy. God doesn’t have to get physical to create or beget. He created Adam and he begot Jesus, the first and the last Adam, respectively.
You know, Isles, you do have a lot of religion in you (said in love). If you believe Mary is Jesus’ biological mother, then you are still in your sins. Adam sinned and all the human race INHERITED that sinful nature. Sin is passed via the blood. That is why there is no atonement without the shedding of blood. Mary’s blood was just as sinful as yours and mine. She had to make atonement for herself, like any other Jew. When you say that Mary was Jesus’ biological mother, you are effectively stating that Jesus was born in sin, like any other human being who descended form Adam. Jesus was like us in that He came in the likeness of man, except without sin. He emptied himself of his Godly glory and lived in complete communion with God, like Adam could have and should have lived, so don’t say we have nothing in common with Jesus. However, He is still the Word of God made flesh. He is not half-human, half-God. There is a world of difference between the two.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:00pm@ISLESFORDIAN
Report Post »“He would in fact be a newly created race inserted in her womb.”
———
And just so we’re clear, Isles, I never said that either. That sounds alienish. Jesus wasn’t created. He was begotten. I know you understand the difference. Gotta go, now.
Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:05pmTexasknight;
“You will not find anywhere in the bible that God is just an exalted man.”
Nor in the rest of the Mormon canon. The concept of God being seen by man as a being like them only exalted has long been lost. Edmund LaB. Cherbonnier was a professor of religion at Trinity College and gave a talk in Provo, UT called, “I Defense of Anthropomophism” and where he, “argues that the biblical and the Mormon understanding of God are indistinguishable.” He made a grat case.
http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/reflections-mormonism-judaeo-christian-parallels/9-defense-anthropomorphism
“You will not find that you can pray your ancestors into heaven.”
Read Macabees where a Jewish group performed rituals upon one of their own who died without ever receiving such rituals himself. They did so believing this would help the deceased person enter into heaven.
“You will not find that you can earn your way into heaven.”
Mormons do not believe that. Getting into heaven is througfh Christ and through His grace.
“You will not find Jesus saying he would make an appearance and produce tablets of gold.”
But you will read Jesus going to visit sheep not of the Old World fold. You will als oread about the sticks of Judah and of Joseph uniting together a one.
(con’t)
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:07pmKryptonite, what church believes as you do about Mary not being Jesus’ mother in the flesh? You can’t prove that from Scripture. You are reading it in, and their is no historical teaching to back you up. So what is it except YOUR “religion”?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:08pm(con’t);
“Mormons are Mormons. Just as Muslims add to the Bible and consider Jesus an important figure, they to are not Christians.”
Muslims believe it’s blashamy to call Jesus the Son of God. mormons fully accept Jesus to be the son of God. That’s a very big difference. What do you call people who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to heaven? I call them Christians.
“That said, I wish my fellow Christians were half as dedicated and moral as most mormons I have met.”
No arguing there. ;>)
“I am not sure why Mormons would want to be considered Christians.”
Because they are perhaps?
“I have seen nothing in Mormanism that would disqualify. If their religion taught something against Christian values, like sharia law, then a no vote would be required. Everything a Mormon would vote for is what Christians would vote for. If it was not for Romney care, I would be voting for him….”
Good points.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:17pmIslaforidian;
“Did God create the heavens and the earth BEFORE he was exalted or AFTER? ”
Did you read where I posted that Mormons do not believe that God was an exalted man before he was God. They do not believe that He was a mortal man on another world, became God, and then created all things. I presented you with official doctrine where I asked you to use and then to show me where God was once a man on another world (”in a galaxy far, far away,” as you vainly put it to obviously make fun of Mormon beliefs). Ddi you do that? Nope, you simply asked me questions continuing to assume this is what Mormons believe after I said that they don’t. There have been individual leaders who taught it and personally believed it but it has never been part of the Mormon canon of doctrines, nor will it ever be as far as I can tell. So, it is these person’s idea, an idea I’m fine with but only an idea. It has no bearing upon Mormon faith, nor worship.
Here’s the irony. Mormons do not believe God (Elohim) was once like a man on a world, you do. Since you believe the Son and the Father are one being then you therefore believe that the Father dwelt upn a world (this world) “like a man”. Mormons believe YWHY came to earth as Son of God and dwelt as a man but not the Father. Not this earth or any earth anywhere ever. I showed you official doctrine where you can learn for yourself what I’m talking about (con’t)
Report Post »MamaP
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:28pmI can not believe anyone who is educated in the least, questions his religion, I may not follow the same road he has taken but who is best for this Country! He has proven that his religion doesn‘t mean he doesn’t do what is best for his State or Country! Ignorance is not bliss! Change is needed now, this time with a plan! I will vote for him as a person, not as a Morman! Is he perfect no, but is anyone! I just believe he is the best person for the job!
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:29pm(con’t);
So, why is it unbiblical and unchrstian tofor Mormons to believe that God (Elohim) once was a mortal man on another world when they don‘t believe such a thing but you have a belief that’s most similar to it and you’re the true Christian? That’s highly ironic.
“It stands to reason. He either always was God”
elohim was always God in mormon doctrine. We use Genesis just like you. Any scripture that’s unique to Morm,onism will teach you no different. As for Jesus Christ (YWHY) we can read in the Book of moses, ” 3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my cname; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?”; ” 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” (Moses 1). There is no wording by which one is to derive that God was a mortal man, became God, and then created this universe. None whatsoever. Nor is there such wording anywhere in official mormon doctrine. Please stop pretendting that you know more than me about what I believe.
(con’t)
Report Post »bbse
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:34pmIt is no joke, NO, Mormons are not Christians. They use all the right terminology but it all has different meanings. Jesus is a created being and the brother of Lucifer. God used to be a man like us and rose to God status, grace is earned through the performance of the Mormon law and ritual. I could go on and on. Also, your founder Joseph Smith received this new gospel from an angel(with no proof btw, he took the magic glasses with him) when Paul strictly warned against this in Galations 1:8-9.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:38pmMary was Theotokos. This has been taught since the beginning.
Kryptonite’s beliefs lack historical perspective…i.e., he’s ignorant. I wonder if he even knows that in its early years the virgin birth was cited to show Jesus to be true man? Only later, when Docetism was falling out of sway, did the church began teaching the opposite. Hence, Kryptonite’s views are more docetic than orthodox. He sees the incarnate Son as nothing more than God in a Jesus suit.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:41pm“The concept of God being an exalted man means that Mormonism isn’t a theistic religion because THEOS means the God who always was God.”
Theos does means God and by philosophy and doctrine, God always was. This aligns perfectly with Mormon beliefs. The same belifefs that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in.
“When I say that Mormons aren’t Christian I am speaking of their theology, not their faith.”
And one desire I have here is to clarify what their faith entails with regards to your accusation. God was NEVER once a mortal man and became God in the Mormon faith. That is not what mormons place any faith in. They place their faith in coming unto the Father through the Son. There is nothing more Christian than that.
“Most of them are simply deceived because they were born into that faith and knew no other or because they never knew the truth in their heart even while growing up in a nominally Christian church.”
Huh? You again to presume to know more about what I believe than me. Stop it. Many are born LDS as was I but many others were of oter Christian faiths and became Mormon, as were my parents. But in all cases, like that of my parents and I, it is the Holy Spirit which confirms the ruthfulness of The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in their hearts as well as in their minds. It’s that simple.
(con’t)
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:45pm@DARREN – You quote from the book of Mormon in your post,
Any scripture that’s unique to Morm,onism will teach you no different. As for Jesus Christ (YWHY) we can read in the Book of moses, ” 3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my cname; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?”; ” 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” (Moses 1).
Can you tell us why the Book of Mormon is translated into King James English? People in Joseph Smith’s day did not use early 17th Century English, so why does the Book of Mormon?
By the way the tetragrammaton is YHWH, and not YWHY.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:48pm(con’t);
“In fact, I am willing to believe that many of them, and even atheists like Hitchens who hated the idea of God, may be received into heaven before a “Christian” like Jim Wallis”
Thanks for lumping Mormons in with the famous atheist. How about, to be consistant with your saying, “I am not saying that they are wicked or that they ahte the truth about God,” that you think many Mormon will go to heaven before many Catholics or Protestants? Now, how does anatheist get to heaven when one clearly must come unto Christ to get there? Mormons have a speldid answer to that. What’s yours?
“And as an Episcopalian I can attest for a fact that Romney is more Christian than the head bishop in our church because I know she doesn’t believe the faith that is still officially ours. She doesn’t belive that Jesus really rose from the dead.”
That I do truly appreciate. And, WOW, that’s a pretty significant denial of faith.
“Mormonism isn’t the Truth. It’s a lie, a BIG lie, just like Islam.”
Mormonism is the resttored truth. That is why it goes against the grain of so many of Christianity’s traditional beliefs. In terms of traditional Christinity, ike the Holy Trinity, it isn’t the same, in terms of doctrine and action, it is 100% Christian.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:58pm@DARREN who said, “God was NEVER once a mortal man and became God in the Mormon faith. That is not what mormons place any faith in.”
Darren, you are either unaware of your church’s teaching, or you are lying. Consider:
1) God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
2) “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s…” (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).
3) “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
4) God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
5) God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
http://carm.org/teachings-of-mormonism
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:58pmWSGAC;
Since you either didn’t read or completely ignored my link which does show DNA evidence from the Middle East, espcially, from Isreal, I’ll ask you, what is Haplogroup X?
Pretending to have omniscience of man’s science is foolish. In fact, that’s an perfectly acceptable scientific conclusion in and of itself.
Linguistic? Bicolon and tricolon usage. These were identified in the mid 20th century as a form of ancient Hebraic fstyle of writing. It is found in the bible and in the Book of Mormon. There are also names like “Alma” which is only recently to have been discovered to be an authentic Hebrew name, and that of a male. Before this discovery, people criticized the Book of Mormon for ncluding a Latin name, which “Alma” is as well.
Archeological evidence: Archeology is very much in its infinatiel stage for the New World as compared to the Old World. But not all ofthe Book of Mormon is in the New World. Lehi’s journey in the Book of Mormon which they arrived at a lace they called Bountiful and later a place called Nahom where they burried Ishmeal can be traced today using the path the BoM describes. You can dfinsd a place in the desert very much like Bountiful and then later a place with “NHM” inscribed on an alter. This place is a burial place.
But it is not my the science of man by which I know the Book of Mormon is true. It’s by the Holy Spirit.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:03pm“Mormons do not believe God (Elohim) was once like a man on a world, you do. Since you believe the Son and the Father are one being then you therefore believe that the Father dwelt upn a world (this world) “like a man”. ”
Ah, Darren. logic is not your strong suit.
We believe that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are one being, God, but three Persons. Only the Son came down to earth.
But about YOUR beliefs: when I was visited by a group of Mormons one of the first things they said to me, and it was very important to them, was “God has a body”. Now I take it that by God they meant the Creator God, God the Father, Father of the Son of God, et cet. HE has a “body”. So he is physical. He has a body of flesh and bone. Joseph Smith taught that he was once a man like us. Now you say that is wrong. If your “prophet” was wrong on this how could he restore the Gospel to you?
It seems you have a problem with your teachers.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:18pm“But it is not my the science of man by which I know the Book of Mormon is true. It’s by the Holy Spirit.”
There are many spirits in this world. They aren’t all holy. But they all like to “teach”.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:32pmWSGAC;
“Can you tell us why the Book of Mormon is translated into King James English? ”
Joseph Smith used scriptural language most familiar not only to him but of pretty much everyone at the time.
Thanks for the correction on “YHWH” . Grammar errors is my blogging fingerprint.
“@DARREN who said, “God was NEVER once a mortal man and became God in the Mormon faith. That is not what mormons place any faith in.”
Darren, you are either unaware of your church’s teaching, or you are lying. Consider:”
Neither, sir. You did not represent the conext of what I posted. I said, “That is not what mormons place any faith in. They place their faith in coming unto the Father through the Son. There is nothing more Christian than that.” You also did not include my posts saying to focus on what is official LDS doctrine, not the ideas of individuals. This includes McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”, “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”, “History of the Church”, “Journal of Discourses” or “Gospel Through the Ages”. So stick with what is part of their official canon, two of which you cited: “Doctrine and Covenants” and “Pearl of Great Price”. Where does it say anywhere in there that God (Elohim) was once a mortal man? Mormons do not place the faith of their worship on any book whose texts were not authoritative. And many cannot be traced to its original sources.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:43pmIslefordian;
“We believe that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are one being, God, but three Persons. Only the Son came down to earth. Only the Son came down to earth.”
Then the Son and the Father are not the same being? You just said they are. One being in three persons. If 1/3 of a being came to earth and 2/3 stayed in heaven than it is stil that same being who is the 2/3 who came to earth as 1/3. Are the Father and the Son a different being?
“HE has a “body”. So he is physical. He has a body of flesh and bone.”
Yes, the Father is a physical being. What official LDS doctrine do you cite that says He was once a mortal man? I do not know of any.
“Joseph Smith taught that he was once a man like us. Now you say that is wrong. If your “prophet” was wrong on this how could he restore the Gospel to you?
It seems you have a problem with your teachers.”
If it is accurate that Joseph Smith tasught that God was once a mortal man, than I say that was his idea, which, as a mortal man himself, he ws entitled to. And I’ve no problem with it, nor have I ever said it was wrong. In fact, I have said that the idea rests well with me but that it is only an idea. I’ve also said clearly tha my intention is that you represent “what Mormons believe” by using their official doctrine, not sources which cannot be authenticated nor were ever authoritative.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:51pmDARREN, you said, “Since you either didn’t read or completely ignored my link which does show DNA evidence from the Middle East, espcially, from Isreal, I’ll ask you, what is Haplogroup X?”
LOL! Are you serious? You need to get away from your Mormon apologists and do some reading. Haplogroup X. But let me ask you some questions:
1. Haplogroup X is found in a very small percentage of Native Americans. Specifically, those who primarily reside in the North East US. Are you aware that this X group has not been found in any native South Americans?…you know, that place where it all began in Mormonism’s origins?
2. Are you aware of the time elements involved? Funny, but it doesn’t square with Mormon timelines. The discrepencies are in terms of milleniums, not centuries. Check the studies on subgroup X2 for more enlightenment on this matter.
3. Could you tell us what Mormon apologists do with the “founder effect” in DNA studies, as it pertains to Mormon claims on it own origins?
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:54pmThe obvious problems with Mormon belief that the Father “has a body of flesh and bone”:
Jesus said “God is spirit”, Jn 4:24. Paul says that he is invisible, Col. 1:15 and 1 Tim. 1:17. That’s why John says that “no one has ever seen God”, John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12. That’s why the Son has made him known, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”, John 14:9.
So Moses didn’t see the Father. Abraham didn’t. Adam didn’t. Who then did they see? The pre-incarnate Jesus?
But who did Joseph Smith see? He claimed to see BOTH Jesus and the Father.
You don’t see a problem there?
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:00pmDARREN, “Linguistic? Bicolon and tricolon usage. These were identified in the mid 20th century as a form of ancient Hebraic fstyle of writing. It is found in the bible and in the Book of Mormon. There are also names like “Alma” which is only recently to have been discovered to be an authentic Hebrew name, and that of a male. Before this discovery, people criticized the Book of Mormon for ncluding a Latin name, which “Alma” is as well.”
How about the name Mosiah? Do you think this is a Hebrew name? It isn’t. “Mos” is egyptian in etymology, “iah” is Hebrew. Can you show from the Hebrew scriptures any Hebrew names that are conflations of Egyptian and Hebrew roots? Answer, No! This is a made up name, and not a very good made up name. It may sound good to the uneducated, but it is as phony as a three dollar bill.
Report Post »Poppie
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:07pmTo:martinez012577
Report Post »You are a liar and have no clue about Mormons
Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:14pm“Then the Son and the Father are not the same being? You just said they are. One being in three persons. ”
Again, you have a problem with logic, and vocabulary. Being and Person are not synonymous. They may practically be used so now but as clasical philosphical categories they aren’t. Being is akin to nature. In Greek the term is ousia, or essence. This might make it easier to distinguish their nature from their personhood. You and I have the same nature, a human nature. We are Man. The Father and the Son have the same nature as well, a divine nature. They are God. They share the divine essence. But they are not the same Person, just as you and I are not the same person. Man is divided into many persons, individual men. God is divided into three persons. The difference is that their unity is greater than ours so we do not refer to them as separate Gods as we refere to ourselves as separate men. This is to clarify that there is no distinction of purpose.
The best model for the Trinity is a family. A father and his son, and a thrid family member (the Spirit doesn’t fit any physical model). The father and son have the same last name but different first names. But they act as one. The son does the family business and represents the family in all things, but the business belongs to the father. You want to deal with the father you deal with the son. They are ONE. Three persons. One Family.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:22pmWSGAC;
“1. Haplogroup X is found in a very small percentage of Native Americans. Specifically, those who primarily reside in the North East US. Are you aware that this X group has not been found in any native South Americans?…you know, that place where it all began in Mormonism’s origins?”
Fine, non in South america, and no, it is NOT “where” “it all began”. Nobody knows and only people have offered theories tha it was in South America. but you missed the point of Haplogroup X. It has traces in European and Isreali peoples but not Asia. And, as you as said, it is found ,however a small group, found in american Indians. So ,thus we have a DNA strain that is found in Eurpoeans, Isrealis, and American Indians. Here’s what you previously said about DNA and the Book of Mormon: There is NO…NONE…NADA middle eastern genetic material found in native americans ” And now you say there is. Tha’ts all I ask. You later said, “Again, listen to some ex mormons who are molecular biologists about the evidence on American Indians which absolutely shatters the idea that they are descendents of Israelites.” Unlike your using man’s science to denounce the truthfulness of the book of mormon, I‘m not using man’s science to prove it’s right. That come by the Holy Ghost. But what you have done is selectively use man’s science to “disprove’ the Book of mormon. That’s foolishness.
By the way, does your link contain a man by the name of Southernton?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:28pmWSGAC;
“2. Are you aware of the time elements involved? Funny, but it doesn’t square with Mormon timelines. The discrepencies are in terms of milleniums, not centuries. Check the studies on subgroup X2 for more enlightenment on this matter.”
Subgroup X2 is not the same as Haplogroup X. That’s been looked into and concluded that ithey are notthe same strain of DNA.
“3. Could you tell us what Mormon apologists do with the “founder effect” in DNA studies, as it pertains to Mormon claims on it own origins?”
I’ve no idea. Why don‘t you tell me what you do with the ’founder effect”.
The Book of Mormon does not claim only one group left the Old World to the New World. The Nephites and the Lamanites are two predominant groups that emorged but not the origins. There could have been several groups for all we know. in fact the Mulekites were discovered by the Nephites who were lost because they did not keep the Lord’s records.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:35pmWSGAC;
“How about the name Mosiah? Do you think this is a Hebrew name?”
I’ve no idea.
Here’s what I do know: “32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech. 33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.” (Mormon 9).
““Mos” is egyptian in etymology, “iah” is Hebrew. Can you show from the Hebrew scriptures any Hebrew names that are conflations of Egyptian and Hebrew roots? Answer, No! ”
If that’s accurate (liker I said, “Alma” was once considered exclusively a Latin name) than thanks for the insight. That very much conforms with the story of the Book of Mormon. You see, even you can show linguistic authenticity of the Book of Mormon if you look hard enough.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:46pmIslefordian;
“Jesus said “God is spirit”, Jn 4:24. Paul says that he is invisible, Col. 1:15 and 1 Tim. 1:17. That’s why John says that “no one has ever seen God”, John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12. That’s why the Son has made him known, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”, John 14:9. ”
First off, God is spirit is true. But isn’t Islefordian spirit? Isn’t Darren spirit? Yes, we are. God is also love. Are we to interpret that as God as nothing more than a warm fuzzy thought? It is rare that anyone has seen the Father. The ancient Hebrews spoke of a God who is distant and a God who is intimiate.
“So Moses didn’t see the Father. Abraham didn’t. Adam didn’t. Who then did they see? The pre-incarnate Jesus?”
That’s what I say.
“But who did Joseph Smith see? He claimed to see BOTH Jesus and the Father.
You don’t see a problem there?”
Why should I?
” 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.’ (Acts 7)
Who did Stephen see? Don’t you see a problem with your interpretation of scripture; not with Joseph Smith’s claims (nor that of Paul. Timothy, or John)
(con’t)
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:47pmDARREN, you don’t understand! My three questions were intentional and would lead you, but you don’t want to be lead.
Haplo X is a distant DNA connection, not a recent connection. If the Book of Mormon is true, what we need is not a distant connection but one within that last several thousand years to substantiate the book of mormon. Haplo X is moot to this endeavor because of its great distance in the time factor. The Haplo X connections between any Native American and an African, or a Near Easterner, or Middle Easterner are connections that originate over 20,000 years ago, and hence well outside the time frame of the book of mormon.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 10:59pm“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.’ (Acts 7)
Who did Stephen see? ”
He didn’t see the Father. He saw the Son and he saw the GLORY of God, not God the Father himself. God’s glory is a manifestation of him, an emanation. It isn’t the same thing as himself.
You are still ignoring the verses that say “no one has ever seen God”. Try explaining that.
And as for you and I being spirit. No. We are not spirit. We HAVE the Spirit in us (well, at least I do) but no man was ever called a spirit in the Bible. A Soul, yes, but not spirit. The Gnostics believed we were essentially spirit, the early Christians did not. Saint John fought against the Gnostic constantly.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:00pmIslefordian;
“Being and Person are not synonymous. They may practically be used so now but as clasical philosphical categories they aren’t. Being is akin to nature. In Greek the term is ousia, or essence. ”
Correct. Homoousia (same essence) is what essentially (pardon the pun) distinguishes the nicene Creed with the Mormon concept of the Godhead. The Bible does not say the Father and the Son are of the same essence. You spoke of the source of that belief, philosophy. It is, therefore, not doctrinal that the Father and the Son are of the same essence but philosophical. Over time though many take homoousia as if it were doctrine. This is what creeds do. As you can see, it is the Mormons who take strides to distingush creeds from doctrine. Traditional Christianity are a blend of the two.
Before continuing, please not e that i sadi that you believe that the Father and the Son are the “same being”. Which is 100% true. I did not say “two persons of the same being”; simply “same being”. furthermore, I said it is you who has a very similar belief that you say Mormons are wrong to believe which they do not belive in the first place.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:18pm“”The difference is that their unity is greater than ours so we do not refer to them as separate Gods as we refere to ourselves as separate men.”
Everything you said up to that point leads directly t the conclusion that they are separate beings. And frankly, scriptures do not aupport your belief. the Greek for “one” as in numerically one unit is “mono”. Where in the scriptures does one translate the Father and the Son being one back to its Greek roots and find the word “mono” to describe them? As far as I know, it is the Greek “hen” which is used to declare the Father and Son as “one” (each and every time). “Hen” is used as “one” in the sense of unity or purpose. The precise corresponding Hebrew word for “mono” is “yachid” and the precise corresponding for for “hen” in biblical Hebrew is “echad”. When Adam and Eve (man and woman) are said to be “one flesh”, it is “echad” which is used, not “yachid”. Likewise all Old Testament declarations tha God/LORD is “one ” uses the word, “echad”; not. if the scriptures were trying to teach that that God is only one numerical being than it should use “mono” and “yachid ”, yet it does not. Instead, it uses “hen” and “echad”.
I could be wrong; but I don’t think so.
(con’t)
Report Post »Luke611
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:18pm@Darren,
Report Post »I was once a member of the largest Southern Baptist congregation in the world–WA Criswell was even the President of the convention at the time. I was wholly invested in the excitement of anti-mormon culture. Walter Martin was a “friend”, Ed Decker and David Hunt were also my acquaintances until the day I found a mis-qouted bibliography concerning the date of the Deseret News. Why would such an honourable and truthful book have an incorrect bibliography. Then, in June of 1979 I began to read the bible and truly study the scriptures as never before. Acts 7:56 declares two separate personages God and Jesus….and I asked who was Jesus Praying to in the Garden and also who was he praying to on the cross. I offered a list becuase I needed these question answered…Matthew 3:17 God speak to the savior, Matt 26:39 praying in the garden, Luke 3:22 Gods voice, Luke 23:34 father forgive them…John 20:17 touch me not for i have not yet ascended to my Father….and of all — John 12:28, God assures Jesus that his sacrifice and work does glorify God.
… Additionally, in verse 30, Christ shares with us “This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes”. Verse 30, Christ concedes God speaking from verse 28 was for the benefit of man. This benefit would be to substantiate without doubt the very identity of God the Eternal Father, and his Son Jesus Christ as two separate and individual personages. God is not a god of confusion.
The Bible is as is man’s creed from
Hobbs57
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:22pmHonestly, You people are no better than a bunch of Muslims. The Sunni‘s and Shia’s sharing beliefs in the same faith but fighting about who is more correct. It makes me sick. NO kidding, half of you far right wing folks are earning the names and labels placed upon you by the left. They have used your closed mindedness to make a divide of this nation, to drive prayer out of the schools, and to take nativity scenes out of our public squares. Your complete disrespect to the Mormon faith is sickening. There are countless Christian faiths who call themselves Christians but according to your interpretation of the bible, they are not. Which by the way, how do any of you know the accuracy of the bible you so strictly point towards ??? Many pages have been removed and banished from history forever, who knows what else has been added. Unless somebody on here has direct;y spoken and been a disciple of Jesus, than SHUT UP !! You have no business or right to demean anybody else faith. I was born and raised a Catholic, was a Mormon for 3 years, and had participated in countless Christian sects. AS a member of AA and NA, I have a significantly strong spiritual understanding. I have practiced Zen and even checked out the Jewish faith but only briefly. You Evangelical who want to convince yourself you have the only game in town when it comes to Christianity are most certainly the ones who most assuredly had Jesus crucified, because you were so sure he couldn’t be the Messiah, cause you kno
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:23pmYour essential argument is that the Fatherand Son are two separate being but we cannot declare them as two separare beings because they exist on a much higher plain than that of us. But I find no scriptural affirmations to your argument and so it is only by philosophy, which is not doctrinal, that you say mormons are wrong and Christianity is right and thus Mormons are not Christians. If you say mormons are not trraditional Christians, I’d fully agree with you but you do not. You say Mormons are not Christians and yet doctrinally-speaking, Mormon beliefs and worship are quite sound.
“The best model for the Trinity is a family. A father and his son, and a thrid family member (the Spirit doesn’t fit any physical model). The father and son have the same last name but different first names. But they act as one. The son does the family business and represents the family in all things, but the business belongs to the father. You want to deal with the father you deal with the son. They are ONE. Three persons. One Family.”
What you described to represent the nature of the Godhead are separate beings acting in one purpose and in unity. That’s exactly what Mormons belive.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:26pm“There are many spirits in this world. They aren’t all holy. But they all like to “teach”.”
Then none of them are the Holy Spirt, are they? Which spirit did I say to rely upon? It was no spirit except for God’s Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit not only likes to teach but that is his divine purpose for our salvation. To teach and to sanctifiy. The Holy Spirit confirms the truth of the father and of the Son. The Holy Spirit does so despite what man’s science says.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:30pm“Before continuing, please not e that i sadi that you believe that the Father and the Son are the “same being”. Which is 100% true.”
You said this: “Then the Son and the Father are not the same being? You just said they are.”
It is difficult to discuss things with you when your logic makes no sense. The use of that question above can only imply that you are interpreting my remarks about the Son coming down to earth and the afther not as meaning that they are not the same being. Now you say thta’s NOT what you were saying. Please explain the sentence, “Then the Son and the Father are not the same being?”, then. What did you mean by this?
Creed and doctrine. They are not separate. They are essentially united. The creed CONTAINS doctrine. Your problem is with certain philosophical words in the creed like homousios that are not found in the Bible. Many Christians had the same problem. But the church decided that these new words adequately explained the ideas that ARE in the Bible in answer to questions that were not asked when the Bible was written.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:37pmWSGAC;
I answered two of your questins and the third I answered saying thta I had no idea as to what Mormon apologists say about a “founder effect”. I don’t even know what that is and I asked what you thought of it. So, please enlighten me. I’m here and (it’s late so perhaps not for too long) And don‘t hold it against me if I don’t want to be lead (whatever that meant). If one doesn’t want to be manipulated, then that’s OK, isn’t it?
“The Haplo X connections between any Native American and an African, or a Near Easterner, or Middle Easterner are connections that originate over 20,000 years ago, and hence well outside the time frame of the book of mormon.”
Actually, I think it’s more like 30,000 years ago. At least that what science says. My purpose, as I repeat myself yet again, is not to “prove” anything. But you did say that there is no DNA link between the Native Americans and the Middle East. That is simply not true. It was once thought to be true; but not now. In other words, man’s science, as it has evolved, has come closer to the authenticity ofthe Book of Mormon. Yet, unlike you who has a focused desire to use science to show that Mormonism is not true, I have no desire to use science to show it’s true. That’s done by the Holy Spirt; not man’s science. Jesus did not promise “man’s science” on the Day of Pentacost; but the Second Comfortor; that is what will testify the truthfulness of of things.
Report Post »Luke611
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:48pm@Daren
…Creed from Niceae 325.
Report Post »Asking my questions I soon found what I was seeking: truth. And Dr Criswell was interested in apply me with satisfactory replies, he was interested in intimidation. I have come to realize in all my discussion on the topic of religion no one wishes to take responsibility for their laziness to search for answers of the many errors and contradictions in the bible. Islefordian and Martinez are the opitome of this spiritual laziness…just as i was thirty years before. I paid my preacher for that; that was their JOB to prostitute Satan’s creed and distort the true nature of God and Jesus Christ—and with a bit of assistance through Roman Imperial Edicts, twisted influences from pagan trinitarianism and generational persecution that was accomplished.
The “Christians” on this site don’t read their Bible and those that do have no concept of its volume or origin. They are who will be saved into the promise of a life of mortality instead of the promise of eternal life. Their judgment is convicting without trial, and thus they will reap what they have sown. At some point, hopefully as I so found, one simple observation will begat a humble question that will transform their life.
But I seriously doubt it and you need to be standing in front of an a s s kicking machine for debating them. They’re idiots, bigots, most likely their greatest accomplishment is writing in this blog.
Darren
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 11:58pmIslefordian;
“He didn’t see the Father. He saw the Son and he saw the GLORY of God, not God the Father himself.”
That is what it says directly but do not ignore the rest f the verse, “and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,” That’s clearly an anthromorphic description of a being, not Jesus, by whom Jesus stood next to. I guess one could say that this wasa symbolic declaration of this event but what is so unbiblical about saying that the Father and the Son stood before Stephen and Stephen saw them both? I fail to find why this is.
“You are still ignoring the verses that say “no one has ever seen God”. Try explaining that.”
Right before Jesus declared Himself to be the bread of life He said, “46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” (John 6). I think this is a more complete vision of John 1:18, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” I think John 1 was referring to anyone not ready to see the Father. Those who are, could have seen Him. I think modern-day revelation binds these two passages together perfectly: “For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.” (D&C 67:11)
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 12:03am“Your essential argument is that the Fatherand Son are two separate being but we cannot declare them as two separare beings because they exist on a much higher plain than that of us.”
No that is not right at all. You are constantly using BEING as synonymous with person. I am using it as synonymous with nature. The father and Son and Spirit are three distinct Persons with a common nature, which in philosophical terms could also be called their BEING or essence.
My point about the many spirits in this world is that many claim to be led by the Spirit. but how do they know it is the HOLY Spirit and not a deceiving spirit? Where is the proof? Don’t all madmen claim to hear from God? How do you distingusih a madman from a prophet or from a false prophet?
I had forgotten how incredibly stupid this statement struck me:
“God is also love. Are we to interpret that as God as nothing more than a warm fuzzy thought?”
Is that what you think “love” is, a warm fuzzy thought? What does Jesus say love is? “Greater love hath no man than that he should lay down his life for his friends”. and “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life”
And you went for “warm fuzzy thought”?
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 12:12am“I think John 1 was referring to anyone not ready to see the Father. Those who are, could have seen Him. ”
So at the time of writing John 1:18 no one in fact had yet seen the Father. No one was ready. Moses wasn’t ready. Abraham was never ready. Isaiah wasn’t ready. John the Baptist was never ready.
That’s what I call a flexible interpretation. With that you could get Scripture to mean just about anything. God is invisible, yet people can see him. No one has seen him, but they could have if they were ready to. Not much point in arguing when logic is useless.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 12:19am@Luke611
“The “Christians” on this site don’t read their Bible and those that do have no concept of its volume or origin.”
What typical arrogance. Put up or shut up if you think you know more about the Bible than I. Go on. “School” me. I know its textual history, the canonical history, the hsitory of its interpretation from the halakic and haggadic schools of the Rabbis to the allegorical and typolgical schools of the early Christian church to the historical critical school of modern times.
I wat with bated breath.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 12:41amIslefordian;
“And as for you and I being spirit. No. We are not spirit. We HAVE the Spirit in us (well, at least I do) but no man was ever called a spirit in the Bible. A Soul, yes, but not spirit.”
Isn’t a “spirit” the very essence of the soul? “Soul” includes body parts. “39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” (Luke 24). Firs off, this does not apply wel to your interpretation that “God is spirit” as far as I see. I may be wrong, but I don’t think so. Second, “spirit” here was used to place the apostles at ease who were frightened because they, “supposed that they had seen a spirit.“ They thought they saw ”a spirit”. How did Christ confort them? Pretty much by sayng, “don’t worry, I’m not a spirit”. I do not recall when Christ got rid of His resurrected body. In fact, He left to heaven with it. So, is it that only 1/3 of God has a physical body of flesh and bone? That only 2/3 of God is spirit but 1/3 flesh and bone? How does a person who is God have a physical body of flesh and bone but not another person who is God not have a a body of flesh and bone? How does God have a body of flesh and bone but not havea body of flesh and bone?
Also, regarding man having a spirit: “59 And they stoned bStephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7). Stephen gave up his spirit; not “the Spirit”.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 12:59amIslefordian;
Here’s what i originally wrote at 8:17 PM, “Mormons do not believe God (Elohim) was once like a man on a world, you do. Since you believe the Son and the Father are one being then you therefore believe that the Father dwelt upn a world (this world) “like a man”. Mormons believe YWHY came to earth as Son of God and dwelt as a man but not the Father. Not this earth or any earth anywhere ever.” I was basing my statement that you beieve that the Father and the Son are the same being. When you replied that they are two persons you confirmed that they are the same being which should be interpreted monotheistically (numerically one).
“It is difficult to discuss things with you when your logic makes no sense. The use of that question above can only imply that you are interpreting my remarks about the Son coming down to earth and the afther not as meaning that they are not the same being’
You responded at 9:03, “We believe that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are one being, God, but three Persons. Only the Son came down to earth.” Here you’ began to show how they are one being in three persons. My original statement was that you believe they are the same. In your response you seem to disagree withthat statement saying they are “one being”. To me those are symatical differences with the same conslusion and thus I aksed @ 9:43, “Then the Son and the Father are not the same being? You just said they are. “
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 1:08amIslefordian;
“Creed and doctrine. They are not separate. They are essentially united.”
Here’s the gist of why they are not regarding the Nicene and subsequent creeds. You will not find “homoousia” anywhere in the scriptures. This was never biblically taught and therefore not doctrinal. It is a philosophy derived from a doctrinal teaching that the Fatherand the Sone are “one”. The LDS very much believe that the Father and Son are one; just not of the same physical substance in terms of them being mono in a physical nature. Butr since the LDS reject the monotheistic nature of the Godhead, they are viewed as non-Christians. Why? Becuae of the philosophy that the Fatherand Son are one means that they are one physical being. That is taking a philosophy and making it into doctrine which should be a very big no no in Christianity. Essentially what happened is that people took the creed and made it into the foundational doctrine of the gospel. As two authors elequantly put it, the Sermon on the mount was pruly doctrinal. All of jesus’ pronouncements there andthen came straight from doctrine. The Nicene Creed, (and all other creeds), were philosophical. You do not find “essence” to describe God’s oness in the Bibe but you could find it in Greek philosophy. The Nicene Creed moved Christianity away from being doctrinal to it being more philosophical.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 1:15am(con’t);
But the church decided that these new words adequately explained the ideas that ARE in the Bible in answer to questions that were not asked when the Bible was written.
As I read this I see that you said exactly what i just said That philosophy was used to teach the Bible. Not only was this used to “answer” questions not asked (more on that next) but became the canacal part of Christianity. Huh? A philosophy? Again, Christianity moved away from being doctrinal and towards being philosophical.
Now, why was this question not asked? The very best and clearest way to answer this is because this is not what first century Christians believed. They did not view God the Father and God the Son as one being of essence. They viewed them as two separate beings in perfect unity one with the other. That all things from the Father to man was through the Son and all these from man to the Father was through the Son. That the Son carried out the will of the Father and the Holy Ghost bore witness of the Father and of the Son. Believing as I just described it does not go against biblical doctrines but against the philosophies adapted to explain biblical doctrines. That’s all. So, no, Mormonism is not traditional Christianity but it is very much biblical Christianity. Mormonism restored Christianity as it once was. Nothing more.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 1:26amIslefordian;
I said said: “Your essential argument is that the Fatherand Son are two separate being but we cannot declare them as two separare beings because they exist on a much higher plain than that of us.”
You respond: “No that is not right at all. You are constantly using BEING as synonymous with person. I am using it as synonymous with nature. The father and Son and Spirit are three distinct Persons with a common nature, which in philosophical terms could also be called their BEING or essence.”
The reason I said what I did is based on how you answr the following question: Are there three separate and distinct divine beings or one?
If you answer three then you are saying that there are three persons all of which are equally divine. that would make you polytheistic. If you say one then you are saying exactly what I said you believe. You cannot say that three persons exist but they dwell in the same essence and therefore are only one being. First off, you’d be declaring amost precisely wat the LDS believe. That there are three distinct persons all three divine and one in their eternal nature. Second, by saying there are three separate distinct persons, you’re saying that there are three separate and distinct beings (meaning intelligent and divine entities). And this is precisely from an example you provided: a family of three beings working together. One family but three beings in unity. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 1:36am(con’t);
If there are three divine and distinct persons than there are three divine and distinct beings. So what if they all dwell in the same essence. There’s still three persons. How do three persons make one mono God? By it’s nature, “three” cannot be “mono”. It can be “hen” and therefore three persons can be a “henotheistic” God; but not a “monotheistic” God. But you believe in a monotheistic God, no?
Her’e something I recently thought of and this isd strictly Darren speaking: The Church f Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints claims to be God’s true church restored to earth today. If that is true then pay attention to this doctrine: “22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;” (Abraham 3). This says that of all God’s creations, one was like unto Him. Perhaps this *could* be the origins ofthe idea tha the are of the same essence. Don’;t know for sure but a possibility.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 1:46am(con’t)
“My point about the many spirits in this world is that many claim to be led by the Spirit. but how do they know it is the HOLY Spirit and not a deceiving spirit? Where is the proof? Don’t all madmen claim to hear from God? How do you distingusih a madman from a prophet or from a false prophet?”
Good grief, man, here’s what you posted to Luke611; “Put up or shut up if you think you know more about the Bible than I. Go on. “School” me. I know its textual history, the canonical history, the hsitory of its interpretation from the halakic and haggadic schools of the Rabbis to the allegorical and typolgical schools of the early Christian church to the historical critical school of modern times.” All that and yet you don’t know what the Holy Spirit feels like? Huh? And then you compare those who seek to be guided by the Holy Spirit as “madmen”. Double huh? The Holy Spirit should be the very reason you know and I know the Bible to be the true word of G od. Are you saying that if you, Islefordian, pray to the Father in Jesus’ name that an evil spirit wll answer your prayer? The Spirit of God is a gentle flow, a peace and contentment in both your mind and soul. It’s a subtle assurance that you are on the right path to God. god did give you a mind ofr reason so use it but reason with the Lord; you do that through the Spirit.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 1:57am(con’t)
“Is that what you think “love” is, a warm fuzzy thought? What does Jesus say love is? “Greater love hath no man than that he should lay down his life for his friends”. and “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life””
No, I don’t. But just as “God is a spirit” does not mean He does not have flesh and bones; there is more to God being love than an abstract thought. As you showed, it’s action God took for our behalf. But is love *only* laying down your life for a friend? Not quite. Therefore “God is spirit” does not only mean He is *just* a spirit. it does not exclude flesh and bone, as Christ had whe He ascended to the Father.
“So at the time of writing John 1:18 no one in fact had yet seen the Father. No one was ready. Moses wasn’t ready. Abraham was never ready. Isaiah wasn’t ready. John the Baptist was never ready. ”
How do you glean that from my remark, ““I think John 1 was referring to anyone not ready to see the Father. Those who are, could have seen Him”? ‘Could have seen Him’ does not mean “did not see Him” which is what you’re asking me. I think John 6 clarifies the meaning oh John one where “no one has ever seen God”. Those who aren’t ready, have not, nor will they ever in this life. Those who are, could see God. Thus Moses and Abraham, *could have* seen God.
Report Post »Cemmi
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 2:30amI don‘ agree with Graham I agree with God’s word.A true Christian has GOD’s spirit in them.Mormon’s have a Mormon bible God warns about adding to his word in Dueteronomy 4:2. Revelation 22:18 Hebrew 12:4 For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow,and is a discerned of the thoughts and intents of the heart.A true Christian should not vote for a morally ignorant Mormon.They should vote for the Christian who has the mind of Christ.Christians should not listen to a Mormon.Mormons should listen to Christians.Glenn Beck is against adding to the constitution but he’s too blind to see that the Mormon bible is forbidden by God.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 3:35amIsles,
That was a lame rebuttal, coming from a theologian like you. I expected you to back up your claim with Scripture like I did, but you have given me only one verse and it does not support your interpretation over mine.
It stands to reason that there is no historical teaching, because this subject is being discussed in terms that did not exist until recently. However, the understanding has always been there for most Protestants… but then Episcopalians are almost Catholic. :)
For your sake (not mine), I surfed the Internet to find a credible Christian man who agreed with me. I did find one likeminded and renown brother, whose exposé is quite eloquent. Please read: http://www.icr.org/article/76/
His resume in case you don’t know him: http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/people/morris-h.html
Report Post »beckinista
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 7:11amInteresting discussion; I’d like to offer another view. “By Grace you are saved through Faith – and THAT not of yourself; it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast”. Boast in what? In his works. God will save whom He wills; we are not to be the judges of salvation. Is Mormonism historical Christianity? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Is our salvation based on our understanding perfectly all that God is and says? Nope. That would be a ‘work’. We are saved by FAITH in Jesus, and His atoning death & resurrection. And the only way we GET that faith is by God’s grace (UNMERITED favor). It’s perfectly plausible for a Mormon to be SAVED; just not in agreement with how to understand spiritual reality. There are many denominations with differing doctrine on the Trinity, yet we still consider them ‘Christian’. If a Mormon expresses faith in the work of Christ for his salvation, I can accept that without accepting his doctrine. Catholics teach that you must go to confession and do penance to have your sins absolved. Most protestants teach total trust in Christ alone; some say you must exhibit works to offer evidence of your salvation. Yet all (should) consider the others Chirstians. To each Mormon here : I can accept that you are ‘SAVED’ without accepting your doctrines. I believe you are living under unbiblical teaching, but if God has – by HIS Grace – given you true faith in Christ’s atoning work, I can call you Brother. Your comments are welc
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 8:22amKryptonite, I only need one verse to show that Mary conceived Jesus and the The Holy Spirit was the instrument. YOU claimed that the HS conceived Jesus and that Mary was simply a vessel, invoking the language of the creed. I showed that Scripture sats plainly that the virgin conceives. Now you shift ground and redefine the meaning of conception.
You claimed that God just used her ovum and that Mary did not give Jesus her DNA. But I countered that using her ovum is precisley taking her DNA.
You clearly don’t have this worked out well. Yet you stick to it as if it is a necessary point of Christian dogma, claiming that my nbelief that Jesus is her biological son makes me “still in [my] sins”. This is ridiculous.
You don’t identify where this idea comes from. You had to search for someone who thinks like you. This shows that this idea has little pedigree in your church (if you even have one). I looked at Morris’s argument. But, like you, it gives no biblical justification for assuming that sin is transfered through the mother’s genetic material. It simply assumes it.
As a counter argument I point you to this site that gives a list of ancient Christian writers who refuted exactly the point we are arguing.
Report Post »http://www.theholdemans.com/heretics.htm
You see, this isn’t MY idea. I follow the Christian tradition of reading the Scripture and understanding the Creeds, not making up an idea that seems good to me and stciking to it regardless of the evidence.
Heyzombieminions
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 8:58amAnd another Christian leader sells out his soul for politics.
Report Post »inhock4u
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 9:08amI agree with Mr. Graham. I think that Mormons are good and moral people and I could vote for a Mormon for president. I’m not sure that I could vote for Mr. Romney because he is primarily responsible for the Homosexual Marriage situation is Massachusetts. I believe he would be Obama lite. I also agree with Mr. Graham that we are a nation under judgment, the blood of 40 million aborted babies is crying out from our nation’s soil. I read bible quotes from another person (joel228), who is apparently a Mormon also, that were taken entirely out of context.
Report Post »John 10
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Psalm 81
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
First the passage you quote as Psalm 81 is actually Psalm 82. God is speaking to the Judges of Israel to tell them that they are “like” gods (notice the little g) in that they have a duty to give the people justice. Read the entire passage. Jesus in John 10 is speaking to Jews who were judging him in the same context quoting the verse in Psalms 82. You can make the Bible say anything you like if take verses out of context. I don’t want to hurt your feelings but Mormons don’t worship the same Jesus that Franklin Graham does. Do some real research about the Mormon faith and you will find the true Jesus. I have read the book of Mormon and find it to be gibberish just like the Quran or the “edited” bible of the Jehovah’s Witness.
WSGAC
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 11:29am@DARREN
MY WORDS: The Haplo X connections between any Native American and an African, or a Near Easterner, or Middle Easterner are connections that originate over 20,000 years ago, and hence well outside the time frame of the book of mormon.”
YOUR REPLY: Actually, I think it’s more like 30,000 years ago. At least that what science says. My purpose, as I repeat myself yet again, is not to “prove” anything. But you did say that there is no DNA link between the Native Americans and the Middle East. That is simply not true. It was once thought to be true; but not now. In other words, man’s science, as it has evolved, has come closer to the authenticity ofthe Book of Mormon.
There is NO DNA LINK! That Haplo X exists in some native americans does not show a connection to Israelites. Haplo X is much much older in the DNA strata. The 4 main Haplo groups A,B,C and D which account for 98% of all Native Americans (ie. your supposed Lamanites), are NOT found in Israel. These 4 are, however, found in East Asia/Siberia, which is why Native Americans originate from that region, and not Israel. If Native Americans are descendants of Israel through Laman, as the Book of Mormon purports, then why aren’t these 4 Haplotypes found in Israel?
Again, Haplotype X is a moot point. You’re striving to make a connection where there is none!
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 11:43amISLESFORDIAN, where do you find in scripture that God used Mary’s ovum? People of the premodern era, and this would certainly include the people of Jesus’ day, women did not contribute to the child’s identity (i.e., the woman was seen as merely a vessel, or fertile ground, in which the father’s seed was planted.) Jesus would then be seen as the Son of God in the literal sense.
I can understand that Mary’s *womb* was used by God, as this was the conventional understanding of how conception worked in that day…the womb was simply the safe house where the seed grew, but ovum was not a biblical idea. Gentically speaking, ovum is more accurate, but 1st century Jews new nothing of ovum.
Report Post »deeberj
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 3:17pmMormons are considered a cult by most mainstream Christian churches.
No matter what Mormon’s say, the words they use that Christians use don’t mean the same thing. As a Christian I believe that Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Mormon‘s don’t believe that. There’s more, but this is THE most important difference because if Jesus isn’t God & man in one, then what he did by dying on the cross doesn’t hold the same weight.
Not that this would stop me voting for him. Better a mormon than Obama. Besides, our president isn’t supposed to be pushing his religion on us, so if he’s my only so called conservative choice I will choose him. Although I’d really like someone way more conservative and someone who is a Christian.
Report Post »deeberj
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 3:40pmhttp://www.allaboutcults.org/what-do-mormons-believe.htm
Report Post »ChickaSawman
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 5:33pmTO: martinez012577
Report Post »How unChristian of you. I was a Baptist & now I’m a Mormon & I can tell you I am a Christian so are my fellow Latter-Day Saints. Your obsession with our Concept of a Heavenly Father who provided a perfect Son to pay the price of all, appears to be disingeniue because we profess a belief in Jesus Christ, we preach of Christ, we teach our children to look to him for our Salvation. Yes we are.
Plojka
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 5:38pmMay I know, MARTINEZ, what authority you are to say that I, a Mormon, am not a Christian? Are YOU a Christian? If so, you need to read the word’s of Christ just a little better. You know, the part about judging others. Who are you to say anyone is a Christian or not? I’d say you better repent of your holier-than-thou attitude.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 10:49pm@WSGAC
“where do you find in scripture that God used Mary’s ovum?”
It was Kryptonite that said God merely used her ovum and not her blood or genetic material. I countered that the ovum WAS her gentic material. I think he really meant her womb.
“People of the premodern era, and this would certainly include the people of Jesus’ day, women did not contribute to the child’s identity (i.e., the woman was seen as merely a vessel, or fertile ground, in which the father’s seed was planted.)”
You should read the statements of some of the fathers in the link I gave above. The early Christians did not hold to such a simple concept. The Greeks like Aristotle might have, but Irenaeus in the 2nd century knew that the mother contributed part of herself to her child.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 12:09amWCGAC;
“There is NO DNA LINK! That Haplo X exists in some native americans does not show a connection to Israelites.”
No matter what the accepted age of Haplogroup DNA connecton is, the facts are that it is found in American Indians, Europeans, and Isrealis. It’s not “proof” (nor am I trying to say it is nor do I need any from man;’s science) but it does open the door to a possible connection. It is a more advanced idea than “no DNA connection” which people say.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 12:13amCemmi;
“Mormon’s have a Mormon bible God warns about adding to his word in Dueteronomy 4:2. Revelation 22:18 Hebrew 12:4 ”
This is true. In your interpretation, ten, what in the world are the books, Revelation and Hebrews doing in the Bible after Deuteronomy?
Report Post »joel228
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 5:51aminhock4u, I appreciate your civility. However I am not taking Psalm 82:6 and John 10:31-36 out of context.
Read Psalm 82 – in Hebrew.
God (capital G) is found twice.
gods (small g) is also found twice.
All four come from the same Hebrew word elohiym. They capitalize the title God. Just an english thing.
Ps 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Now read John 10 – in Greek
All references to God and all references to gods come from the same word “theos”.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
It would not be very effective for Jesus to tell the Jews that wanted to stone him that a prophet of old (“to whom the word of God came”) told judges of old to judge justly. Those Jews already thought they were judging justly and said as much “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” They judged him as blasphemous regardless of his works.
It was more effective for Jesus to point out their hypocrisy. They believed they are gods (clearly future tense) and at the same time they call him blasphemous for making a lesser claim of being the son of God.
He did not criticize the doctrine but confirmed it to the condemnation of the Jews that wanted to stone him.
Report Post »The Bible confirms multiple gods (not “god like” judges). However as Paul said “to us there is but one God”
kryptonite
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 3:14pm@ISLESFORDIAN
I only need one verse…¨¨
———-
God always provides at least two or three verses to unveil truth. It gives both coherence and cohesion to his written Word. Besides, being compelled to search the Scriptures to get the whole counsel of God builds us up on our most holy faith.
…to show that Mary conceived Jesus and he Holy Spirit was the instrument. YOU claimed that the HS conceived Jesus and that Mary was simply a vessel¨.
In God’s kingdom people are always the vessels. The HS is the One who gives life. That is the law of the land. Matthew 1:20, which precedes the verse you quoted, says: “…because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.” The agent of conception is clearly given in this verse. It is the Holy Spirit IN Mary, not Mary BY the HS, as you claim. (CONT.)
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 3:25pm“You claimed that God just used her ovum and that Mary did not give Jesus her DNA.”
Geez, Isles, you are forgetting what the point of contention is. I said exactly the opposite. Go back and read my comment @6:39pm. Mary provided nothing. Genesis, (God, not Moses) identifies Jesus as “the seed of the woman,” but as you know women do not have seed. She merely carried the heavenly seed, a male, the Son, and that explains the apparent contradiction. The Bible also states that the Spirit overshadowed Mary. He begot Jesus, proclaimed his divinity, anointed Him, worked miracles through Him and raised Him from the dead. From start to finish it was the work of the HS. No need for an ovum — or sperm, for that matter.
I am not alone in my belief. I was simply looking for a source on the Internet for you. Granted, your interpretation has been around for a longer time than mine, but should time per se settle spiritual truths? As for the forefathers you cite, their allusion to “Mary’s flesh” only proves that they were using arithmetic to solve a calculus problem, so to speak. Darwin delved into origins without the slightest notion of genetics and came up with the evolution crock — which most scientists and the secular world back up to this day.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 3:33pm@ISLESFORDIAN (CONT.)
Nevertheless, I can posit some plausible reasons: Jesus came in our (current) likeness, which means He had to experience birth; He could fulfill his ministry as teacher, prophet, and Messiah only if he rose from within Israel; there is a rich array of promises and prophecies in the OT that are fulfilled in the NT as a testimony unto mankind of Jesus’ divine nature and the Bible’s divine inspiration, and that could only take place if He had human lineage, i.e., was “son of…” I’m sure you could think of many more, if church tradition didn’t get in your way.
“…it gives no biblical justification for assuming that sin is transfered through the mother’s genetic material.”
God has made “from one blood every nation of men” (Acts 17:26). We now know this is possible because human blood carries the human genome. We also know that through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners (Rom. 5:18), and that sickness & disease and finally death entered the human race because of sin (Rom 5: 12). (Sickness & disease are tangible, so that it why I am making the connection between sin and disease.) How do you think we inherited sickness & disease, death and sin from Adam? We know they are inherited via the body (Heb. 10:10; 1 Pet. 2:24) and the only way that can happen is through the human genome.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 3:40pm@ISLESFORDIAN (CONT.)
Moreover, we now have proof that some sicknesses and diseases or the predisposition to them is carried in the genes and passed on from one or both of the parents. Recall what Jesus said when a paralytic was brought to Him: so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” (Matt. 9:6). Have you ever wondered why Jesus never got sick? I’m sure Mary did, because ALL human beings get sick – except for Adam before the fall.
“Now you shift ground and redefine the meaning of conception.”
God has his own dictionary. That is plain to all Christians, so why are you getting on my case, Isles? Here’s a nugget: Luke 2:21 says that Jesus was “conceived in the womb.” However, HUMAN fertilization occurs in the fallopian tube. That’s where Mary’s egg would’ve been if she had been ovulating, and where she would have “conceived,” NOT in the womb. God is very precise – for the sake of people like you. :)
“…claiming that my belief that Jesus is her biological son makes me “still in [my] sins”. This is ridiculous.”
Well, the HS sided with you on that one. I blame Betsy, for not including an editing feature. Seriously, I apologize. I’ve claimed you are unsaved twice, and you’ve called me a heretic twice too. Now that’s what I call brotherly love. Peace.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 20, 2011 at 7:53pmKryptonite,
You are looking at Sin as a genetic infection, a corrupt addition to the original genome that was created. I look at Sin as a malformation of the genome itself. If Jesus received his genetic material ONLY from Mary you might have an argument there there he still received a defective genome. BUT, if he also received genetic material through a special creation then that could correct the genmoe. Remember, I said that God had to create the male chromosome because the female doesn’t possess it. Perhaps sin is passed down through the male line, or rather, perhaps the original perfection would have been passed down through the male line. If Adam hadn’t fallen as well the race would not be fallen. Eve’s sin would not be transfered to the children. But once Adam sinned the male line was corrupted and the race fell. This comports with what The Bible says about male headship.
Anyway, my argument rests on the witness of the early church. Since your view was never accepted by the church and my view was that settles it for me, and it ought to for you. The habbit of theorizing in opposition to the tradition of the church only creates pride and schism, neither of which serves the Gospel.
Report Post »Kangana
Posted on December 24, 2011 at 11:28amTo those of you who bash Mormons, would you vote for a Jew? An Eastern Orthodox? A Southern Baptist? There are two maybe three dozen different Christian denominations and they have different views than you do. If you only vote for a politician who shares your particular religion then you’re a bigot. It’s not abiding by your faith. It‘s being bigoted towards people who mean you no harm and don’t threaten your religion or religious beliefs any more than any other politician of a different religion does.
Veritek got it right Martinez,
A Christian is someone who follows Christ. If you believe there is something else that’s necessary then you are a specific kind of Christian. Kack is right. He’s a Christian, only he’s willing to say that you are too. The difference is that he recognizes that his specific Christianity is Mormonism, while you, and lots of other people here, arrogantly lay claim to the whole umbrella designation.
By reading some of your posts, I assume you are a born-again? It’s not a slur. I‘m just trying to explain that it’s one type of Christianity. Great then. You’re born-again and Kack is Mormon and you’re both Christians. It’s really, really that simple.
Report Post »yada_yada_yada
Posted on January 4, 2012 at 6:20pm@Martin
Let me guess, let me guess… you are a baptist… as we all know baptists have the only true definition of what it is to be christian… except that the baptist version of what it is to be christian differs from what other sects believe to be… now baptists are willing to go around and point out how every other religion is not christian… mornons, catholics, seventh day, unitarians, protestants, etc… what a surprise… here you are claiming that mormons are not christian…
Yeah whatever….
Report Post »momsense
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:32pmYou had better mke up your mind and get over your problem with Mormonism if Romney is the nominee. Would you want another 4 years of Obozo and his Black Liberation Philosophy dictating what goes on in our country?–or his disregard for the Constitution, or the criminality of the Black Panthers or people like Elizabeth Warren who is an out and out Com munist in the Congress? Think hard and long on it. this is where we’re headed if Obozo is allowed a second term.
Report Post »Rob Adkerson
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:04pmAs much as I want Obama out of the whitehouse, I won’t vote for Mitt Romney. I’m glad we got Obama instead of McCain because at least it woke people up. If people are still so asleep that they would nominate Mitt Romney, I want Obama to win because it means that too many people are still ignorant sheep who will vote for someone who knows how to play the political game, but doesn‘t have America’s best interest at heart. I’m sure he makes you feel warm and cozy inside, and that’s why you want to vote for him, but think critically: Is he really going to lead the country in the right direction?
Report Post »jakartaman
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:14pmRob – Your an Idiot – but I cannot spend the time to tell you all the reasons you are a fruit!
Report Post »longbow719
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:22pmI cannot stand Obama, I would vote for any Republican candidate over Obama except for Romney.
I will vote for Obama over Romney. Romney is a wet noodle and I would rather let Obama continue to destroy our nation than allow the democrats time to regroup under a completely useless RINO republican. If the American people aren’t mad enough about Obama to vote in a real republican than I am content to wait until they are ready or we all die.
Report Post »Leopold
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:21pmI am an evangelical christian, and I find it repulsive that this question is even being asked. Not just because of Obama and the need for a good candidate, but the very thought that a Mormon may not be qualified to lead the country.
Shame on the people who make that an issue.
Report Post »NYSTREETKID
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:50pmyou are right.those on here would give the devil another four years then to get over a word here or a verse there just so the feel they are the bigger man. God knows who right and wrong. God judges his own way. We have no right to put God in a box. We say this is way we want God to act. Judge not lest you be judge. The Lds church is filled with Loving families and Good americans. Can you all say the same. I am a Born again in christ,Not in the church I walking to.I am have faith in him not to any one type of church.
Report Post »GoodStuff
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:26pmOnly God knows whether someone is genuinely saved and born again. However, the Bible makes it clear that the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross is sufficient. That’s why Jesus said, “It is accomplished.”
Therefore, anyone that tries to “add” to the cross, is guilty of following a man-made works-righteous religion. This includes Mormons (who add the Book of Mormon and “works”), Catholics (who add books to Bible, confession, purgatory and other “works”).
A false convert sees the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross as insufficient and tries to fill in the gap with their own “good works” as a means of salvation. Good works do not save you. The Bible calls our good works nothing more than “filthy rags” next to the Holiness and Righteousness of God though the person of Jesus Christ.
This is why Mormons and Catholics, those who believe in “adding” to the Cross through works, are not true converts and not Christians. Their beliefs are entirely un-Biblical. It is unfortunate, but true.
All one must do is recognize their sins through the Ten Commandments (the “schoolmaster” that leads us to Christ. as Paul stated). Realize that they are not “good” and their “good works” do not save. Repent (make a decision to turn from sin, do a 180) and trust and know that Jesus and Jesus alone paid the penalty for your sins. Do that, and the Bible says you are saved and a new creature.
Report Post »rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 8:51pmSadly we might be better off with an atheist as president than a religious person. Religion takes the cake for example of man’s spiritual depravity.
I can give you example after example of what happens when an atheist becomes supreme dictator of a region. It is bad and harsh. Mormonism has a few very terrifying claims that could prove to be more horrifying than A Socialist. If a Mormon becomes President he/she could use it as an excuse to declare themslf God of the world. This is based on their own doctrine. Any religion that says man can become god is a danger to all men and a compete slap in the ae to God the father of highest, heavens and earth.
All religions are man made. A theocracy is another form of government that man creates hatclaims to be the gov’t of God. Their is only one gov’t of The true God and it is visible and possible if you read the bible. Any gov’t in the mean the is perverted and is based on the sin of man.
This election 2012 we will not find an answer in any candidate. As these horrors unfold we have to look away from Washington and to the bible and prayer and meditation with Jesus. If Jesus stands with you none can stand against.
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:05pm@rdietz7
Report Post »~ Many of you are exactly like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ time, judging while all the while sinning in doing so. Jesus taught to go out and declare His word, to be like Him as He is like our Father in heaven. Doesn‘t sound like sitting around on your butt saying you’re saved and declaring others are damned, sounds like YOU are trying to be the ‘prophet’ to me. Jesus did NOT teach to condemn your brother nor declare someone else’s word is untrue with NO authority to do so, He taught to go and do as HE does (and did), that doesn‘t sound like ’NO WORKS’ to me. I read the original King James version of the Holy Bible…you? Oh that’s right someone elses interpretation of the original translation, I see…hmmm. Clear the mote from your eyes brothers.
richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:09pm@Rob Adkerson
Report Post »Many of you are exactly like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ time, judging while all the while sinning in doing so. Jesus taught to go out and declare His word, to be like Him as He is like our Father in heaven. Doesn‘t sound like sitting around on your butt saying you’re saved and declaring others are damned, sounds like YOU are trying to be the ‘prophet’ to me. Jesus did NOT teach to condemn your brother nor declare someone else’s word is untrue with NO authority to do so, He taught to go and do as HE does (and did), that doesn‘t sound like ’NO WORKS’ to me. I read the original King James version of the Holy Bible…you? Oh that’s right someone elses interpretation of the original translation, I see…hmmm. Clear the mote from your eyes brothers.
richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:12pm@longbow719
Report Post »Many of you are exactly like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ time, judging while all the while sinning in doing so. Jesus taught to go out and declare His word, to be like Him as He is like our Father in heaven. Doesn‘t sound like sitting around on your butt saying you’re saved and declaring others are damned, sounds like YOU are trying to be the ‘prophet’ to me. Jesus did NOT teach to condemn your brother nor declare someone else’s word is untrue with NO authority to do so, He taught to go and do as HE does (and did), that doesn‘t sound like ’NO WORKS’ to me. I read the original King James version of the Holy Bible…you? Oh that’s right someone elses interpretation of the original translation, I see…hmmm. Clear the mote from your eyes brothers.
rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:40pmI’m not casting judgements on any. Nor am I saying that one candidate is better than another. The blaze puts up a story and I comment what is on my mind regarding the issue. Mormans are people like everyone and need to be treated as the golden rule says. When a Morman wants to be president of the Us he then better know that he will have opposition. The Morman gov’t will not be in charge of America if i can help it. I’m a regular Joe expressing my feelings about a religion I believe to be false. I’m not saying that Muslims, jes or anyone else can’t come to know Jesus and find the reward of salvation. I don’t want any of them imposing their beliefs on me through a government. That is just as dangerous as what is going on with Obama. Like Obama brings in other marxists, atheists and thugs into this administration; a Morman President would bring in behind the scenes people from the LDS. I’m terrified of this. Most normal morman have no idea what goes on behind the curtain of the Morman church. Keep the Morman Church out of American gov’t at all costs.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:41pm“Jesus did NOT teach to condemn your brother nor declare someone else’s word is untrue with NO authority to do so, ”
yeah and He told us not all are our brothers…..
protestants, orthodox, and catholic all agree, mormons are not christians, therefore not our brothers.
Report Post »GeorgieJo
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 2:05amWOW All these attacks on Mormonism!!!!
You guys are playing right into Obummer’s STACKED hand
OBUMMERS religion wasn’t a problem for the lefty moonbats
BTW WHAT is Obummers religion??????
Heaven forbid if a candidate was Jewish—-HOW would that go over?
VOTE for the MAN——NOT THE RELIGION
OMG—-Obama MUST GO
Report Post »Stick your right and vote this marxist OUT!!!!
JJ Coolay
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:32amWOW!
Report Post »WOW!
WOW!
WOW!
I can’t believe my friggin eyes!
Are you people for real??????
You would vote for Obama over Romney?
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU
Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 7:51am@Goodstuff,
Catholics do not “add books to the Bible”. What you or I call the Apocrypha they call the Deuterocanonical books, and these books have been in Christian “Bibles” from before there really were Bibles. They would have been part of the scriptures of many 1st century Christians. Since they were never part of the Hebrew canon but were written in Greek by Hellenized Jews in Alexandria as part of the Greek translation of the Bible, the LXX, there has been a debate in some quarters of the church whether they have the same status as the Hebrew scriptures. The Orthodox and Catholics say they do. Protestants follow the critical thinking of Erasmus, who was taking the opinion of Jerome, that these books are good, but not divinely inspired. Jerome was following the practice of the Jews who rejected the purely Greek texts.
It would be more accurate to say that Protestants took OUT of the Bible books that they believe didn’t belong there.
Plus, I think you are simplifying the distinction between justification and sanctification. With James i would say, “You say you have faith. Show me your works.” Faith without works is dead. It’s not as simple as you make it out.
The type of thinking that can say that Catholics aren’t Christian is the same fringe Protestant thinking that led to things like Mormonism.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 8:17amI have said that I would vote for Romney against Obama . i would vote for an atheist against Obama if the atheist would stop some of Obama’s policies. Romney’s religion is not a disqualifier for me. But it may be for many people, especially in the more religious South and Midwest. I wonder if some are trying to downplay the difference between Mormonism and Christianity in order to calm the minds of THOSE people. That is something I will not go along with. God is more important than America and I won‘t allow the Truth of God to be confused for the sake of saving a nation that I know won’t last until the end (I’ve read the Book).
This election is a very important worldly thing. but it isn’t eternal. If Romney‘s religion is a serious impediment for many people isn’t that all the more reason why we should avoid his becoming the nominee? I don’t know how many will say with me, “I don’t like it, but I’ll vote for the Mormon to kick the Marxist out”, or how many will simply stay home or vote third party. It’s a serious consideration.
We’ve still got a few real Christians in the race that the nation might find appealing. Michelle, and the two Ricks. Newt’s a Catholic, which is much better than what he was before IMHO, but I don’t think his faith will “save him” politically.
What I find ironic is this panic to jump on the bandwagon of a guy people don’t really like and then we are told to put our highest beliefs aside and vote for the guy. Very inspiring.
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 12:38pm@rdietz7
Report Post »So let me get this straight, you speak now for not only Mormonism, but all the organized religions as well? All of which have varying points of view & doctrine, but You know that it’s just the one church (LDS) that is dangerous…unlike the inquisitions of the past that ACTUALLY murdered innocent people and kept them in ignorance & squalor by burning & hoarding all the books. How about this, Matt. 7:20 KJV: 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. A man’s heart is reflected in the way he lives, speaks & treats others, not by what he adheres to in doctrine, a man can live his life never knowing Christ in the flesh yet live an exemplary life of goodness and kindness to his fellow man, whether he knew it or not he was serving the Lord & would be rewarded the same. Jesus said as much, “Matt. 25:40 KJV: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Doesn‘t sound like Jesus said the ’least’ among us have to pass a litmus test first…I’m just saying. The fact that you can comment on this site about issues not even being reported on the ‘lamestream’ news sites is because of a Mormon brother, oooh that sounds dangerous and spooky doesn’t it…
richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:02pmOOPS, my last comment was actually for ‘RUSH_IS_RIGHT’, my mistake.
Report Post »deeberj
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 3:30pmTo comment on these people saying they will vote for Obama over Romney because the country needs waking up….I think I understand them.
The bible says God puts kings into power, sometimes to judge a country. Basically give them what they want. Like the Israelites wanted a king, so God gave them Saul. They got what they wanted.
The USA has been on the slow train of progressivism for a long time. Obama taking office just moved us quicker in the wrong direction, which woke people up about the evils of progressivism. So in this way Obama fulfilled a purpose. If McCain had won instead of Obama, we’d still be on the slow train and so many would be blind. I thank God Obama won if only to show us where we were headed.
Report Post »just slap me
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:30pmhttp://www.godlikeproductions.com
Speaking of Franklin Graham, this site might be worth a look on a quiet Saturday night.
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:30pm100 percent agree with FG.
Report Post »ares338
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:30pmI don‘t need anyone to tell me that it’s ok for me to vote for someone! I alone will make that decision!
Report Post »Bluebonnet
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 3:07pmI‘d vote for Romney in a heartbeat before I’d let the election go back to a Marxist.. What’s the deal? Some would rather cut off their leg than do what’s right for the Nation. It’s time we as a Nation stood together. What’s wrong with that? It’s dogs who return to their vomit.
Report Post »inferno
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:29pmJimmy Carter is / was a Christian, Obama is a whatisit. How did Carter do ? How is Obama doing ?
Report Post »There is no way a Morman can be any worse as president !
Baddoggy
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:24pmFYI Jimmy Carter does not believe in Christ’s divinity……Same as a non-believer. He is on the same rail to hell as Obama.
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:08pm@Baddoggy ~
Report Post »Many of you are exactly like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ time, judging while all the while sinning in doing so. Jesus taught to go out and declare His word, to be like Him as He is like our Father in heaven. Doesn‘t sound like sitting around on your butt saying you’re saved and declaring others are damned, sounds like YOU are trying to be the ‘prophet’ to me. Jesus did NOT teach to condemn your brother nor declare someone else’s word is untrue with NO authority to do so, He taught to go and do as HE does (and did), that doesn‘t sound like ’NO WORKS’ to me. I read the original King James version of the Holy Bible…you? Oh that’s right someone elses interpretation of the original translation, I see…hmmm. Clear the mote from your eyes brothers.
Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:18pmBaddoggy, since Carter is a Southern Baptist, and their doctrine of the divinity of Christ is clear I wonder what source you have for saying that Carter dissents from his church on that issue. You may well be right. he IS a liberal Christian, after all, and I know many liberals in MY church who don’t believe much of anything in the creed and they still call themselves Christian. But I haven’t heard Carter say anything like that yet. I have thought his faith was the one decent thing about him.
Report Post »TEXASGRANNY73
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:29pmThank you Franklin Graham for a common sense and Christian answer to an asinine question. We went through this same ridiculousness in the 60′s when JFK ran for President and he was a Democrat.
Report Post »neverending
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:44pmAgree with you 100%
Report Post »jakartaman
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:28pmRev. Graham hit the nail on the head.
Report Post »We need a president that will put god back into our lives and one who knows how to fix our economic ills. I for one think Romney fits that bill.
God save us all from four more years of our Muslim/socialist weak leader
ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:10pmWould you vote for an Atheist?
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:26pmCould you vote for an Atheist?
Report Post »bullcrapbuster
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:33pmno
Report Post »abbygirl1994
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:37pmHe’s already in office.. You don’t really think he is a Christian after listening to Wright for 20 years… he deranged and so is his new pastor!! God help us!
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:05pmFunny how voting against someone because of their religious belief is taboo……until that person doesn’t have the same thoughts as you, then it’s open season.
Report Post »Favored93
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:30pmThe reason I would say no is because 95% of this country belives in “God”.
Report Post »I would at LEAST want some one that represents the people … though I know that may not be me he/she represents.
I would rather it be Bauchmann. Because she is (as far as I know) Born again. And that does represent me.
Welcome Black Carter
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:33pmAtheist – No
Report Post »muslim – Hell no
Mormon – If the choice is obummer or the Mormon – Yes
Ishmot2
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:40pmYes if he didn’t try and make me one, but knew how to run the country, unlike what we have now.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:41pm@FAVORED93
That is completely illogical.
And the fact that 95% of people in America believe in a God shows how idiotic America still is.
Report Post »richard the lion-hearted
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 10:01pmMany of you are exactly like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ time, judging while all the while sinning in doing so. Jesus taught to go out and declare His word, to be like Him as He is like our Father in heaven. Doesn‘t sound like sitting around on your butt saying you’re saved and declaring others are damned, sounds like YOU are trying to be the ‘prophet’ to me. Jesus did NOT teach to condemn your brother nor declare someone else’s word is untrue with NO authority to do so, He taught to go and do as HE does (and did), that doesn‘t sound like ’NO WORKS’ to me. I read the original King James version of the Holy Bible…you? Oh that’s right someone elses interpretation of the original translation, I see…hmmm. Clear the mote from your eyes brothers.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:09pmHere are two atheists that I would vote for over against Obama: Ayn Rand and Christopher Hitchens,
Note that they are very different. Hitchens despised Rand, and she would have no respect for him. I like Rand for her radical libertarianism and Hitchens for his commitment to fighting fascism in the form of militant Islam.
Of course they’re both dead. So how about Penn Gillette? I don’t know his position of the war with militant Islam, but he seems a reasonable fellow.
Of course, if I had someone who believed in God and who wasn’t a socialist or fascist I would prefer him over an atheist.
Report Post »countrygirl
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:25pmDear Blaze, In sentence two the word you need is wary, not weary, please correct.
Report Post »rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:24pmLOL, like they have time to read the comments. I like country girls just for that reason.
Report Post »Veritek
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:24pmSo basically the question was: CAN A CHRISTIAN VOTE FOR A CHRISTIAN?
Umm, yes!
Report Post »CatB
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:30pmYes .. that was the question … ;-)
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:32pmMormons arent Christians.
Report Post »Veritek
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:49pmWe aren’t??? Crap, I wish someone would have told me sooner… Could you please explain my religion to me? Clearly I’m not capable and need you to help me out.
Report Post »CatB
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:57pmLOL … Martinez .. you really don‘t know what you don’t know.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:12pmCAT
The thing that Mormons did to Christianity is the same thing Christianity did to Judaism. Judaism just did a buffet style selection of beliefs from previous religions before them fit to a story that they like.
You all keep hijacking each others beliefs and calling them your own. None of yours or anyone else’s beliefs are original much less true.
Report Post »GoodStuff
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:45pmVeritek –
The fact that you use the phrase “my religion” says everything. Religion is man-made (Joseph Smith) and based on “works-righteousness” (Mormon belief that good works in addition to the Cross, is what “saves” someone.)
Please, reject your man-made, work-righteous religion and look at the Ten Commandments the way Jesus described them: looking with lust IS adultery, having hatred toward someone else IS murder. Please, see how the Bible describes our good works as nothing more than “filthy rags.” The Bible says the Cross is entirely sufficient and that our sin-debt has been completely paid. To believe that we need additional “works” to save is un-Biblical false teaching, and is an insult and affront to our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “It is accomplished!”
Jesus Christ is Truth!
Reject man-made religion at all costs!
Report Post »PGMike
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:26pm@goodstuff,
Report Post »As a lifelong Mormon I must disagree with you. Any Mormon who truly understands the teachings of the church knows that Salvation comes only in and through the blood of Christ. Let me try to exlain it this way:
Mormons do not believe that righteous works will save them, we believe that unrighteous works will damn us. Having said that we do, of course, believe that baptism is required for salvation, as do many other main stream Christian religions. We strive to keep the commandments because we want to be like Christ, not because we think that our works will save us.
On another point is not the very act of accepting Christ into your life a “work”. Most main stream Christians will condemn Mormons for beleiving in “works” and then turn right around and say that all you need to do is accept Christ to be saved. From our point of view accepting Christ is a work. It is something one must do in order to be saved.
Ishmot2
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:46pm(Mormon belief that good works in addition to the Cross, is what “saves” someone.) Holy Joseph Smith Batman, I didn’t ever know the cross is what saved me.You are a complete moron, not to be confused with Mormon. All the Mormons or members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I know are very good and giving people, which is what is needed to bring us out of the ditch Obama has run us into.
Report Post »JJ Coolay
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 5:41amWho cares what one religion hijacked from another. None of that matters.
Report Post »Denominations are useless.
If you have accepted Christ and try to live a life that is pleasing to God, you’re saved. Doesn‘t matter if you’re Baptist, Mormon, Catholic–whatever.
People keep trying to fit God into a box.
Will the human race ever learn anything?
NOT A CRAZY
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 4:35amMoronism is an adulteration of Christianity. They have made changes to the Bible including changing who Jesus Christ is. This is false doctorine and a lie. The Mormon Bible is also a fabrication and a lie. The true Holy Bible has never had one thing proven wrong in it and yet the Book of Mormon has had multiple things proven as false. Not to mention the phony golden tablets and DNA issue.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:24pmVote for a Mormon or vote for an atheist socialist?
HMMMM. That is is a tough one. NOT!
The Mormon of course unless he is Harry Reid.
Report Post »easyed598
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:50pmMartinez says Mormons aren`t Christians.Huh? How about Jesus Christ of the later day saints-isn`t that what they practice? Sounds Christian to me. Had some other Christians say Mormons practice Polygamy. Over a 100 years ago they gave up that practice and just think our current President`s father(Obama`s) was practicing Muslim Polgamy when Barack was born. He already had another wife besides Barack`s mother(some say two).
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:13pm“How about Jesus Christ of the later day saints-isn`t that what they practice? Sounds Christian to me.”
Uhm..a title doesn’t make something so. Otherwise the People’s Republic of China would actually be a Rebublic rather than a dictatorship.
The fundamental difference between Mormonism and Christianity is what you guys say about CHRIST. You have a false conception of who and what Christ is, thus it is not Christian.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:13pmAnd Christians have a false idea about their God that they stole from Judaism.
Fact is, you don‘t believe in the same God and it’s pretty common sense thinking.
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:30pmMormons are christian, but teach a heresy. As do most protestant churches.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:40pmWhat “heresy” do you think most Protestant churches teach? Mormonism fundamentally disagrees with the doctrine of Christ held in common between Orthodox, Catholic and Mainline Protestants.
Report Post »SHIPMONEY100TRILLION
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:24pmGram is week when he speaks.
Report Post »wwwjr
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:26pmHey idiot: Learn to spell.
Report Post »wtune
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:37pmDid you major in English as a Second Language? Check out a dictionary when you write comments. People might actually read your drivel if the spelling were correct.
Report Post »SHIPMONEY100TRILLION
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:23pmGraham is not my pacifier.
Report Post »AhLeahIris
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:56pmThis article prompts only one question in my mind: How long before Glenn changes his endorsement?
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:23pmIf you are Christian that thinks voting for a Mormon is ok, then so is voting for a Muslim, Hindu, or a Scientologist.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:28pm“I would rather be ruled by a wise Turk than a foolish Christian” – Martin Luther
Of course finding a wise Turk in the days of ascendent Militant Islam would be trickier.
Report Post »CARS60
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:39pmBelieve it or not a person’s faith does define him or her. In a subtle way but it is there. I think of morals first so if this person shows married to one wife/husband, is pro life and doesn’t expect the rest of us to follow their brand of faith, yes, I could vote for them.
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:48pm@cars
Yes the morals of the person do matter. If I have the choice between a true Christian with good morals and a Mormon with good morals I choose the Christian.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:07pmThe test is Glenn Beck versus Jim Wallis, or Jimmy Carter.
Report Post »Baikonur
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:22pm@martinez012577
Report Post »Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:23pm
If you are Christian that thinks voting for a Mormon is ok, then so is voting for a Muslim, Hindu, or a Scientologist.
Report Post »Reply
Islesfordian
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:28pm
“I would rather be ruled by a wise Turk than a foolish Christian” – Martin Luther
*********************
Hodja Nasreddin–The Disturber of Peace (medieval Sufi faity tales about Central Asia)–I promise you will like them. ;)
hecowe
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 4:41pm@martinez
“Yes the morals of the person do matter. If I have the choice between a true Christian with good morals and a Mormon with good morals I choose the Christian.”
But that may not be the choice we have. If it’s Obama or Romney, you’ll have to decide if you can vote for a good Mormon (who will stop a country’s suicide plunge) over a “negligible Christian” (who presides over the destruction of this country and its founding principles.) If you can look God in the eye and say you didn’t vote for a man who literally could save the Republic and freedom itself (whether you vote for Obama or choose to stay home and don’t vote at all will be the same), you‘re a colder man than I’d ever want to meet. I’ll pray for your soul.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:22pmWhat a silly Question!
Report Post »garyM
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:22pmRomney‘s Mormonism is not what I’m worried about, it he’s liberal record and liberal way of thinking I most concerned about! I find almost with a chuckle that Beck accuses Newt of being a progressive and Romney is really the progressive. Beck gets allot things right on Obama but he has fallen from the “THE TRUTH LIVES HERE” in this primary!
Report Post »bullcrapbuster
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:36pmC’mon preacher he has also called Romney out many times.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:06amI think Beck has made clear that he views both Romney and Newt as Progressives. I think he views Newt as the bigger Proressive, or the more dangerous one. I think he is wrong on that estimation. And eirther of them would be a vast improvement over more Obama. Glenn has developed a fanatical hyper-allergy to all things progressive and goes into anaphalactic shock whenever someone praises TR or FDR or Wilson. It’s becoming tiresome.
Report Post »SHIPMONEY100TRILLION
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:22pmReal People know that. His message is right, but ten years behind reality. Can you say Obama is evil?
Report Post »Can you say Romney is Evil? Can you say Gingrich is evil? That might me more appropiate Graham.
13th Imam
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:34pmBarry is evil.
Report Post »TEXASGRANNY73
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 3:55pmThis commenter became a member Dec 11 2011. And if you read the other comments they are full of nasty language no Christian would make so take that into consideration when replying. Just another troll couldn’t wait to get to this freebie site belonging to a Mormon to incite and divide.
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 5:25pmObama is evil, as he is pushing a philosophy that brings only evil. “By their fruit shall ye know them…”
Report Post »Jenny Lind
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 7:30pmHi Granny! Thanks for pointing out how the “new” trolls are trying to get us to fight each other. Sometimes those who come here all the time forget the principles Christ taught us, the one He wanted us to hear and obey is to love one another as He loves us. If we say we believe, that should be our priority. He also said “judge not that ye be not judged”. No one this blog is qualified to judge the heart of another christian. Those who want to do evil here should get dismissed and not answered. I appreciate the “homework” you do on the newest troublemakers. This sometimes gets really distressing to me.
Report Post »tbacct
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:19pmPerhaps a better question would be: Can a Christian vote for a socialist who is hellbent on destroying our country? Seems many of them did in 2008 and will do so again in 2012.
Report Post »Lazier Than Thou
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:17pmWow, someone making news that doesn’t hate Mormons. That’s a nice change of pace.
Report Post »jackbauer
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 6:04pmI don’t think anyone here “hates” Mormons. I think, they may think, Mormons are confused, mislead, etc… Just because someone disagrees on Theological matters does not mean they hate each other. I would love to believe Mormons are Christians but there are question marks in their Theology that throws up caution flags. From writings of ex-Mormons I am lead to believe there are issues with Joseph Smith’s character, his interpretation of the writings he claimed to be given, and the historical facts surrounding the timeline of things that he said happened. According to ex-Mormons, the LDS hierarchy has a tendency to shrub things from the records that don’t follow the narrative laid out by Smith or other Church founders. As far as Christian or not. I believe Mormon’s are mislead, but I don’t pass eternal judgements, because it’s not mine to make.
Report Post »ThatsWhy
Posted on December 19, 2011 at 6:37amVery interesting reading from former Mormons: http://www.utlm.org/other/changingworld.pdf
Report Post »garyM
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:17pmThe odd think about this is Franklin would have gave the same answer about Obama in 08!
Report Post »NOT A CRAZY
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:15pmHave any more unclarified stupid comments Barber2?
Report Post »Johnny916
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:14pmI agree with Graham. Neither a Christian or a Mormon Christian. Everyone should vote for the best candidate.
Report Post »13th Imam
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:13pmThe question should be . Can a Christian vote for a Pro Abortion(Baby Infanticide) DEMOCRAT or Republican??
Report Post »NOT A CRAZY
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:20pmI am not a Romney fan. In fact, I am going to vote for Bachmann or Santorum. However, Romney has come out over and over and said he is Pro-Life now. People do make mistakes so I guess you either believe him or you do not.
Report Post »easyed598
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:59pmObama is definitely anti-life- He actually said this a few years ago–”Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old,” he said. “I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby. I don’t want them punished with an STD at age 16, so it doesn’t make sense to not give them information.”
Report Post »rdietz7
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 11:10pmNot A CRAzY
Good luck with your two candidates
Report Post »peterson
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:35amReagan was once pro-choice and changed sincerely. Romney has done the same.
Report Post »NOT A CRAZY
Posted on December 17, 2011 at 2:13pmA bunch of “Christians” voted for a Marxist Black-Liberation Theology Muslim Zero the last time. I think the rest of us can vote for a mormon to get rid of the current mistake.
Report Post »Bill from NJ
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 1:04amTHANK YOU Sir,
You read my mind.
American voters should not fall for this divide and conquer line of BS.
Report Post »The POTUS is a POS and Americans must throw this bum out of office.
This is just another ploy from the left to cause splits and controversy in the election against obammy.
hbear
Posted on December 18, 2011 at 9:37amI certainly agree with you. A Mormon President will not hurt this country. Personally I prefer a Conservative Christian but it doesn’t look like that is going to happen. After Obama, I could live with any of these candidates except Ron Paul.
Report Post »