‘Gay Christian? Yes!’: Movement Sparks Debate Among Believers
- Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:27pm by
Billy Hallowell
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The issue of gay marriage is more than divisive on the nation’s political and religious fronts. As time progresses and public opinion transitions to become more accepting of homosexuality, pro-gay Christian initiatives are experiencing rapid growth. Recently, a West Michigan campaign called “Gay Christian? Yes!” launched in an effort to “proclaim the good news that God’s love in Christ extends to all, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.”
With a billboard and a set of talking points, gay Christians and their supporters are ready and willing to engage with critics about a plethora of issues.
Billboard for the pro-gay Christian campaign (Image Credit: MLive.com)
Rather than embracing the typical Christian belief that homosexuality is not what God intended for mankind, the group is trying to transform the image — and level of acceptance — of homosexuals in church culture.
On the campaign’s web site, the group says that it hopes to “see West Michigan become a region where our vision becomes reality.” This vision is to see every LGBT (lesbian, gay bisexual, transgender) individual “walk freely in the love of Christ.”
The initiative is being spearheaded by Gays in Faith Together (GIFT), a group that is working for gay equality in Christian circles. The campaign’s web site explains its goals in detail:
The “Gay Christian? Yes!” Campaign is a bold and broad faith-based collaborative movement designed to make it clear that God does not exclude or withhold love because of who we are or how God made us. It is also an opportunity to foster healing, understanding, awareness and an acceptance of everyone and everything God has created. [...]
The first part of the message is that yes, you can be gay and Christian. We proclaim the love of Christ for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people—and those who support them. The Bible’s invitation of new life in Christ extends to everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. LGBT people can—and many do—love Jesus and follow Jesus. This is the sincere testimony of those of us leading the Campaign.
The second part of the message is that we affirm the presence of LGBT people in the Christian community. We applaud all the ways that the Christian community is already welcoming and affirming LGBT people, and we invite—we challenge—the Christian community to continue on the journey toward fully embracing LGBT Christians.
The campaign is essentially answering the ongoing question of whether an individual can be both gay and Christian. The Blaze explored this issue last year, with the majority of respondents — 71 percent — claiming that it is possible to be both gay and a practicing Christian.
“We are just opening so many doors, and that’s what’s so cool, especially during this time of year, when people who are gay Christians feel like they can’t step into their churches,” said campaign organizer Theresa McClellan earlier this week.
Watch McClellan discuss the campaign, below:
“Almost all pastors know they have members who are gay, and they care about their own members, but they’re not sure how to care for them, added The Rev. Jim Lucas, GIFT’s chaplain. “Every congregation has some gay members, whether they realize it or not.”
Lucas continued, delving into some of the more contentious areas when it comes to addressing homosexuality in Christian circles.
“People cannot change their sexual orientation; it is who they are,” he said. “It’s a message of invitation to the larger Christian community, to say as Christians, we really need to welcome everybody who wants to follow Jesus, and that includes those of us who are gay.”
But Steve Demers, senior pastor at Lighthouse Community Church in Allendale Township, disagrees.
“We’re about forgiveness. And we want to offer people God’s forgiveness. We want to offer them God’s love,” the pastor explains. ”We just believe that there is a deception that homosexuality is not sin and God calls us to help people and to call them to repentance. There is a generic love being offered that does not hold us accountable to each other and the scripture doesn’t really know that kind of a Christianity.”
Demers’ church is splitting with the Reformed Church in America over the issue of acceptance of gays and lesbians, among other issues.
(H/T: MLive.com)
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Comments (336)
TH30PH1LUS
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:02pmThen he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.” ~ Jesus
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:20pmThat means people must deny their own image and existence for the sake of longevity, and take up the cross which is taking up sacrificing things you may want on earth for the greater good? If you have a Social Security number or more to the point, it you don’t see having a number as evil, then are you doing that? I don’t think so.
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:22pmFor me I can tell if people are of God or not with one question. If you had 5 minutes to live what would you do?
Report Post »cuinsong
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:26pmyou don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see that the perverts are trying to bring their perversion into the church.
Report Post »The people who embrace this distortion of Christianity are them selves being influenced by the devils words.
Sodom & Gomorrah are prime examples of perversion gone wild and for their transgressions they were destroyed!
The good news for all the perverts in the world is that they can still be saved if they renounce their sins and accept Jesus as their savior.
But if they continue down this path of trying force their perverted life style’s into society as normal and their desire to be accepted will only end with their destruction!
I think they are listening to the
“The Devils Song” http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_10789987
and by doing so will be bringing on
“The End Times” http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_10381143
HorseCrazy
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:19pm^^^^^faith is a journey and who are any of us to stop gay folks (or anyone else) from coming to Christ? should we allow the gay community to override the doctrine of our Bibles set by God? No. Should we prevent them or hinder their relationship with Christ through judgement or nastiness? No absolutely not. Holy Spirit will work on their hearts and minds just like he convicts me on a regular basis and what I call fine tunes me to be a better person, walk closer with him serve him better. I do believe the spirit of this movement has its good points and will help many folks. God loves all people getting them to know him is the main point of this,
Report Post »70S_KIDS_FIGHTING_SOCIALISM
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:28pmTo those asking what if and or why God made me this way.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Report Post »iampraying4u
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:22pmI have seen happy christians but never a queer christian
Report Post »Jonah7
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:29pmFollow me…sad isn‘t it that the majority of Christians don’t follow him. Today Christians are followers of tradition. We know satan’s method is to divide and conquer, and so he throws up all of these ridiculous issues, when we as Christians know they are wrong. To be followers of Christ is to walk as He walked, to believe what the Scriptures say, not what some church leader tells us is right. But sad to say, most Christians don’t really know what they believe, or what scripture says. “God blessed the seventh day and made it HOLY” so says the scriptures.
Report Post »silentwatcher
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:17pmI don’t get it. Why are gays making such a big deal out of their sexual orientation? Are they seeking our approval?? Not gonna happen here.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:21pmItsjusttim
For me I can tell if people are of God or not with one question. If you had 5 minutes to live what would you do?
Get stoned and punch a cop. Was that the right answer? Five minutes isn’t a very long time. I’d rather ask, “if you had 1 hour to live who would you do?”
Report Post »black9897
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:33pmDebate? No. There is no debate. The Bible can not be anymore clear on being gay is wrong. If you want to say different, ok, fine, but don’t try to twist the Bible to fit your view.
Report Post »unknownuser
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 10:23pmITSJUSTTIM
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:22pm
For me I can tell if people are of God or not with one question. If you had 5 minutes to live what would you do?
Easy spend time with love ones :) just enjoy the time i have left with the people that i love :)
On this Forum there is no True Christian like what Gandhi said I like your Christ but don‘t like your Christians why because most or all don’t accept people for who they are gay or not thats no Christ like Jesus accepted EVERYONE regardless of what they are and who they are.
Like what Jesus said love all hate none.
Gays should be accepted Because they are STILL HUMAN BEINGS.
Report Post »Paul
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 10:44pmSodom and Gomorrah…
Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
Leviticus 20:13, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
Hello !
Tic Toc…
Report Post »Paul
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 12:06amIsaiah 3
9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. 10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him…
Read all of Isaiah 3 Again your living it.
http://theseason.yolasite.com/
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 1:27amIt is prophesied that the church itself becomes corrupted and the word of God is ignored in favor of the will of man. Now, isn’t that the cause of all sin? Lucifer fell because he put his own will before the Lord’s. Forgiveness is available to any person, but comes with the admonition…“sin no more”.
Report Post »Sexuality is a sin unless it is between one man and one woman in marriage-God’s will. All the rest is sin, and to be forgiven… you MUST get straight, and married to have sex…..just stop trying to make up your own rules. You are deluding yourself and any other impressionable people, for whose condition YOU will be held accountable. You really don’t want to challenge God, especially for a thrill up your leg
Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 1:42amIts just tim(bless his heart) If I had just 5 minutes to live, which as far as I know may be true, I would do exactly what I always do, and with the same intensity as I do everything every time I do it. I refine and accentuate and investigate. I reason, edify and fist fight. And as always I would spend the time with my lovely wifey, after all The Lord put us here to team up and do something. So It really would not matter and it seems as if your inquiry was quite inane…..hey leave me your number I’ll call.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 3:58amThe Old Testament is about FAILURE and a Prophecy of a Messiah & a New Testament: Of Course there can be Gay Christians… I just do not want to be around them or have them in Public Service!
Report Post »StonyBurk
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 7:14amJesus answered and said unto him; Most assuredly,I say unto you,unless one is born again,he cannot see the kingdom of God”John 3:3 and again Jesus answered,”most assuedly ,I say unto you,unless one is born of water and the Spirit,he cannot enter the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.”John 3:5-6 and “therefore,if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation ;old things have passed away;behold all things become new .” 2 Corinthians 5:17 It is impossible for one to be born again and to continue in sin for they crucify Christ
Report Post »and make their salvation of no affect. To those caught in that web of homosexual deceit I say There is a way that seems right to a man,but its end is the way of death Proverbs 14:12
cfreedom
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 7:42pmGays have always been welcome in the Catholic Church, being gay is not the sin, the sexual act is the sin and that is between that person and God.
Report Post »snooop1e
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 8:58pmBeing Homosexual is having same sex attraction, it’s not a lifestyle or an act. “GAY” is a LIFESTYLE, being “GAY” means you are having sex with someone of the same gender. You can be a homosexual and deny yourself and live a chaste (Christian) life. We can’t help how we feel but we can control our thoughts and actions. You cannot deliberately engage in homosexual sex acts and be a Christian. You can be homosexual and abstain from having sex with the same gender and be a Christian. God doesn’t hate “homosexuals” (people who suffer from same sex attraction) God hates the SIN of men having sex with men and women having sex with women. There is a distinct difference. Homosexual Christian YES, GAY Christian? not according to Jesus…..God Bless.
Report Post »USA-Ron
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 1:01amthere should not be a Gay male as an elected Family Court Judge, I read where that happened, somewhere. A good man, and educated I’m sure but, I would not want a Gay man to Judge any Family. That gives the acceptance and approval of a Gay Lifestyle in a public setting. Any Gay lifestyle should be kept private. Homosexuals are people that commit sin, they can be forgiven by God, but a lifestyle must be changed to stay a Christian. We need the “Don’t Tell“ and the ”Closet”.
Report Post »I support God's Israel!
Posted on April 20, 2012 at 12:57pmDoes God reward stupidity? Does he REWARD sin? What is SIN? Sin is the action of wrong – ACTION. You can be gay and NOT do gay action and be saved. However, if you are gay and you perform gay acts, you are in SIN. LOOK AT THE PERSON’S FRUIT. A minister should ask this gay person if he is a PRACTICING GAY. If he says yes, then the Minister should ask him if he wants prayer and/or if he will denounce this evil perversion. If he says no, then he must be excommunicated IN LOVE. Perversion usually tries to get other people into their perversion, so that is why they must be asked to leave that church, based on the scriptures in the Bible.
IF that church does not do this, then true followers of Christ SHOULD LEAVE and go elsewhere. then, God will deal with them on Judgement. They have been told and that is ALL A CHRISTIAN IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Move on. Pray for them, but move on to others who actually WANT to hear and live the TRUTH.
Do not judge them that will HURT THEM in a way that is NOT IN LOVE. Understand yet people?
Jesus would have done as He did with the woman at the well. GO AND SIN NO MORE. The Bible tells us specifically WHO WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN.
Matthew 5:17-20
Matthew 7:13-15
Colossians 3:1-7
1st Peter 1:16
Jesus said that MARRIAGE between a MAN and a WOMAN was sacred. Therefore, it is very very clear that anything else IS SIN. Use your common sense people. God gave you common sense. Satan gives you uncommon sense. Figure it out.
Report Post »Susie
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:01pmHow many pages have to be torn out of the Bible to accommodate those who wish Christianity was something it is not ?
Report Post »Don’t like it ? Just move on.
Jonah7
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:42pmNo pages need to be ripped out. Christians seem to be able to twist things well enough.
Report Post »Ask a christian what day they worship on, bet the majority say sunday. But why? You can read from Genesis thru Revelation and never find a “thus sayeth the Lord” that tells us to worship on sunday Sad to say, most christians don’t know what or why they believe.
black9897
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 11:10pmGod rested on the 7th day (sunday), that’s why most worship on that day. You can worship on any day, in fact, you should be worshiping everyday.
Report Post »RamonPreston
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 12:56amReminds me of the young man who went to church and noticed that the old man next to him didn’t have any pages in his Bible. “Wow, what a memory you must have!” exclaimed the kid. “No, no, you don’t understand” replied the old man. Whenever a minister said “This doesn’t apply”, I tore the page out.”
Put something in the collection plate and everything is all right!
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:08amEnd time prophecy speaks to the apostacy of the church…..what church? Whose church? That church…probably your church. Does your church have someone dressing up like a bunny for easter,
Report Post »Look up“ ishtar”
True Christians are walking out of the churches in droves. Political correctness has no place in His presence. The flood of the great Book of Revelation is a flood of lies and spin, supernaturally covering the earth with a blanket of blindness and spiritual “slumber”. Sooner or later even the most die hard evangelicals will just give up on the hard core…there comes a time when you let the fornicators go to the devil. Let them all get together and play “church”. As for myself and mine we will not be attending.
READRIGHTHERE
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 5:18pm@black
The seventh day of the week is Saturday, which is why Jews continue to celebrate the Sabbath on that day. Chirst was resurrected on Sunday, the first day of the week, and since that time, his followers have met together on that day, making it holy unto them. Keeping the Sabbath day holy, be it the orginal Hebrew Sabbath or the Christian Sabbath, has more to do with tradition and community and the importance of putting the world aside to focus on spiritual needs, than it has to do with the calendar. You could technically rest on any day of the week, the point would be to keep it consistent, but why? Christians “rest” on Sunday devoting that day to the remembrance of their Savior, Jews keep their Sabbath day on Saturday to obey the law given to them by Moses.
Report Post »snufy
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 9:28pmBlack, the 7th day is Saturday. Look at any calendar. One of the 10 commandments is; “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. Most christians do not even keep Sunday holy, much less the Sabbath.
Report Post »As far as this ‘gay christian’ thing, it’s clearly a work of deceit directly from Lucifer. You cannot walk with Jesus and continue in willful homosexuality. He says to repent of your sins and sin no more, which means to denounce them and change your ways to be as much like Him as possible, in the Holy Spirit. Homosexuality is a clearly deliberate act, not something you are born with. I want to rob banks, too, but I have ro refrain from it. I cannot be a bank robber until I walk into one and say, “Stick’em up and give me your money!”
Satrix
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 11:28pmI don’t know. How many? Sounds like you watch a lot of TV like PBS and History Channel. Try something called research before making statement like this.
Report Post »black9897
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 11:49pm@READ Ok. Depends how you look at it. Some see Sunday as the 7th day. Personally it doesn’t even matter. Why? Well, going to church is an important part of being a Christian and growing in your faith. It’s good to fellowship with other believers. And no, it doesn’t matter what day that might be. God does not care.
Report Post »snooop1e
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 11:52pmJonah7 – The scribes and Pharisees condemned Jesus for healing on the Sabbath and Jesus asked them if man was created for the Sabbath or if the Sabbath was created for man. I ask you the same question? Jesus commissioned His Apostles telling them all authority in and Heaven and on Earth Had been given to Him by the Father and WHATEVER they bound on earth would be bound in Heaven and WHATEVER they loosed on earth would be loosed in Heaven. What specifically do you not understand about the word WHATEVER ? What specifically do you think Jesus was referring to when He said WHATEVER? property taxes? carbon emissions? Jesus also told Peter that He was giving him the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Jesus also told Peter that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church He was establishing. Ask yourself, did Jesus give you the keys? Did Jesus give your pastor the keys? Did Jesus give your denomination the keys? If not, by what authority do you question Gods Church? Peace be with you.
Report Post »black9897
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 11:55pm@SNUFY Yeah, there are those who don’t. But remember that “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
Right, I certainly agree with homosexuality being wrong.
Report Post »I support God's Israel!
Posted on April 20, 2012 at 1:03pmWorshipping ANY day of the week has NOTHING to do with being saved. IT IS JUST A DAY OF COMMUNITY WORSHIP, which can also be done in your own home. However, the Bible tells us “… not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.” – HEB. 10:25
Nit Picking is NOT something a true follower of Christ would do. If you are nit picking (accusing your brethen on things NOT IN THE BIBLE, you are IN SIN. You need to repent.
A true follower of Christ would never nit pick another follower of Christ.
So, are you a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST or are you a Christian nit picker?
You need to pray about these things. God will provide the answers you seek.
Report Post »RabbiDRJerkins
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:00pmShalom,
Report Post »There is no such thing as a gay Christian. Homosexuality is very clearly spoken against by the Lord. If you are one of the people of the Lord, you do not engage in what the Lord names an abomination. Saying you are a Christian does not make it so.
COFemale
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:13pmIt is their actions that is the abomination, not the person himself or herself. So a gay can believe in Christ and read the Bible. It is when their continued sin – fornication with the same sex that is an abomination in which they will answer to God. However, now we come to a new issue – living in righteousness. If you are gay and never partake in sex with anyone, but believe in Christ and read the Bible, they are no different than a straight person following that same path.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:27pm“It is their actions that is the abomination, not the person himself or herself.”
@Cofemale hits it out of the park. Absolutely correct.
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:42pmAnd Shalom to you, Rabbi. May your Pesach be blessed w/friends, family, and ha-Shame’s very presence! cHag samach!
Report Post »imsteph
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:43pmwhere there is God—all things are possible.
i wouldn’t deny access to the Word of God to anyone…
it may be cliche’ but sin is sin to God…
and you can hate the sin but still love the sinner and pray, teach, and be an example for them…
everyone must have the opportunity to embrace God and receive the gift of salvation…
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:09pmI could not have said it better than cofe.
Look at it this way, a sex addict struggles everyday. they can not help the way they are, or easily “cure” themselves. But no one denies that sleeping with multiple partners is sinful. “Being” a sex addict is not a sin. “Acting” on the urges IS a sin.
“Being” gay is not a sin. “Acting” on those urges is.
We hate the sin, love the sinner. Loving the sinner does not mean we EVER condone the sin, it means we lovingly help the person conquer that sin.
Report Post »70S_KIDS_FIGHTING_SOCIALISM
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:16pm@Cofemale + locked
Matthew 5:28
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
You are completely WRONG if you even think about it then you are sinning. All you have to do is pray for discernment and actually READ the BIBLE and quit listening to people who hate Christianity. This movement is about persecuting the Church and telling LIES about Jesus who is the very WORD of GOD.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:23pm@70s
Have you ever found a woman attractive without sexual desire? For example, complimenting someone on their hair, or clothing?
If you think attraction only means sexual lust, I feel sorry for you and the demons in your heart.
Report Post »The Third Archon
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:32pm@COFEMALE
Report Post »Assuming that the attraction is involuntary, that’s a ridiculously draconian stipulation to come from God, and assuming the attraction is voluntary why wouldn’t they just have already CHOSEN to be attracted to women and solve all their problems?
4truth2all
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:51pmYo … you don’t just stop the sin/ sinning, God changes the heart and the desires of it, so a truely repentent gay person would not refer or continue to “be gay” and would be repulsed at the thought of it, they would not have or want to be part of “gay churches”. Like the Rabbi say’s a gay christian is non existant.
The church I attend would not allow a gay unrepentant person to become a member, cause we follow the teachings of scripture.
The sinning might not stop immediately, but the person would be remorsefull and trun from it and eventually stop, they would not continue in the lifestyle and say Jesus is fine with it!
Report Post »Texas.7
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:34pmRepenting requires that we humble ourselves to God and agree with Him on what is good and evil. It is arrogant for man to assume the role of God, labelling evil as good. We rebel against Him when we reject the instruction of the Holy Spirit, for we know the answer already. (Contempt towards the indwelling Spirit is blaspheme).
I am not trying to sound like I am perfect- only that we must spiritually discern what sin is, in order to walk with Christ. We must agree with God on the nature of sin. Therefore, when we stumble, He is eager to help us back up, because we agree with Him and repent. He knows we are but clay, and forgives a sincere heart. He is faithful, trust Him.
Many in this age try to re-define unmovable truth. But no psychology class or diversity training gives us the authority to teach God from man’s foolishness. Let Him define sin, and then do our best to obey. I support freedom for all in the USA- but this discussion is with brothers and sisters in Christ. No disrespect intended toward others.
Satan once promised man that he could be a god, knowing both good and evil; but this was our introduction to confusion. How long will God strive with man? I don’t know. But it isn’t the sin itself that is a problem for Christ. Sin can be forgiven. But the arrogance of defiance which keeps man’s heart far from the Lord remains unforgiven. Rebellion places a wall between us and the Lord. Surrender to His love.
Report Post »Texas.7
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:43pmAnd let me clarify- sin is an issue with the Lord, as it separates our heart from Him. But sin without willful intention or defiance occurs routinely in our lives. We just keep trying to do better, and that effort shows our devotion towards Him. The obedient receive blessing, but we all know we are a work in progress.
Willful defiance is another matter, and that was what I was addressing in my post. Once someone has decided that God is wrong, and that they aren’t sinning at all, they have taken a dangerous stand as a Christian. For non-believers, who can blame them. They don’t know Christ.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:04pm70 don’t even begin to tell me you have not looked at an attractive man or woman, depending on your sex, and thought they are really nice looking. I am a Christian, I am not married now, but I have seen many men who are very good looking and admired what I was seeing; even when I was married. I am guilty. I am not perfect.
Remember God made a covenant in the New Testament to sent us his son, who died for our sins. Do you honestly thing gay people were excluded? You can be against their life style and not support their sexual preference, which I do not. But as a another human being, I have nothing against them. An atheist can read the Bible, an gay can read the Bible, and a Christian can read the Bible. In order to “claim” Christianity you would expect everyone to follow God’s laws. However, since we are all sinners, what makes your sin less or more than any others sin? Sin is sin in God’s eyes. He specifically points out that men with men and women with women is an abomination to him. How do you think he thinks about two unmarried people together; one man, one woman. Would that be an abomination to him also?
You all can throw Bible quotes all you want. I can return in kind because I read the Bible all the time. However, the true difference is do you really understand what God is trying to tell you. Do you really know what the verse means.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:54pmCofemale, Locked,
“It is their actions that is the abomination, not the person himself or herself.”
That is not correct at all. The person’s nature is the problem. Their actions result from man’s sinful nature. Man’s default position is to rebel against God.To say that it our actions that are the problem shows a total misunderstanding of scripture.
It sounds like you are saying, to be a Christian you need to read the bible, follow the laws, and if you screw up that is fine, God will give you a hug. What you are essentially saying is that you need to follow the law but if you don’t you are still fine.
If that is what you are saying, you are misunderstanding the entire purpose of Jesus’ death on the cross. He died so we would not be judged by the law but rather if you have accepted Jesus Christ or not.
If you accept Jesus, your sins are washed away and the Holy Spirit changes your heart. If you were gay, you would repent from living a homosexual lifestyle and being attracted to the same sex.
The barometer that the Bible uses to determine who is a Christian is predicated on whether there is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If there is no indwelling, the person is not a Christian.
If you are arguing that you can be gay, lead a homosexual lifestyle, or still be attracted to the same sex and be a Christian at the same time, according to scripture that is false.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:58pmYo Cofemale:
Are you trying to say that it is OK to be gay, unrepentant of “that” sin and be a spirit filled follower of Christ receiveing an inheritence in His Kingdom … if so, please show me that verse.
Also God does not look on His as “sinners”, they are saints … there is a BIG difference. Do they still sin ….yes, but they HATE their sin, not justify it.
Report Post »skimmer57
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 9:11pmYup! If you are divorced and get remarried you commit adultery!
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 9:17pmYo Locked:
A persons actions ARE an indication of who they are. The problem with man is his HEART/ MIND …WHO HE IS BY NATURE !
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 10:02pmCofe is saying that w eare ALL sinful. The Bible refers to us all as “filthy rags”. “ALL fall short of the glory of God”.
Any one of you who say you have not sinned since getting saved are guilty of the sin of lying. I am not saying that to judge you as I am just as guilty of my own sins.
Once saved we wont be perfect, we will still stumble, but God will change our hearts, what we once craved will mortify us eventually. For some this happens quicker than for others, we can only assume it happens differently for everyone according to Gods plan.
I have read all of Cofe posts, he has never said any sin is “OK” what he has said is that homosexuals are sinners like any of the rest of us, and should be treated as such. As sinners. ALL sin is equal in God’s eyes. That means that you and me?? ….well we are just as filthy as a homosexual. ONLY the blood of Jesus can make us clean, if we could do it by ourselves through our actions Jesus would not have needed to die.
All of that means that we do our best to follow God’s law, and if we stumble, we get back up and repent. It means we try our best to change not only our behavior but our hearts, I would even argue that our behavior cant change unless our hearts change first.
Report Post »Texas.7
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 10:13pmskimmer57,
Report Post »No, I don’t believe it is adultery in all cases (and I’m not going to do the judging when it is, and when it isn’t adultery to re-marry, but the Holy Spirit will convict someone of this, which is the point of my posts).
I struggled with that one also, and prayed to God for an answer. His message to the Samaritan woman was to sin no more- and my gut tells me that He meant that because she wasn’t married to the man who lived as her husband currently. I have to ask, would Jesus had told her to leave him if she was married to him at that time? (Though possibly her current “husband” was married to another, which changes my analogy- but you get the idea).
According to the Law of Moses, what you say is correct, though man had added all sorts of loopholes to allow divorce. Jesus corrected the Jews about their ideas of divorce, and I agree that divorce is terrible.
Never-the-less, here many of us find ourselves in this condition. I have prayed about it and prayed about it, really already knowing in my heart that re-marriage would not be a sin for me. But I wanted to hear it from God. Was it because I was saved after divorce? Why was He speaking in my heart that I was so cleansed and so forgiven that marriage again would not be a sin???
Sin no more. You are cleansed. We, who are being transformed in Christ, released from the bondage of both sin and the Law, may live in peace, according to the newness that follows His love.
unknownuser
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 10:37pm@70S_KIDS_FIGHTING_SOCIALISM
Genesis 1:28
Report Post »And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
RamonPreston
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 12:58amThat last statement is the truest thing you ever said.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:05amChris,
“Cofe is saying that w eare ALL sinful.”
Cofe said that it is the action that is the problem not the person. From a biblical standpoint ,that is not correct. It is human’s sinful nature that is the problem.
“Some of us truly believe all sin is equal, that is what the Bible”
In other words, in God’s eyes stealing a pack of gum is just as bad as going on a shooting rampage and killing 50 people? Really?
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 8:46amYes really Kstret.
In God’s eyes all sins ARE equal, so stealing a pack of gum is as bad as a murdering spree. That is why Jesus had to die. If sins were “tiered” then we could easily rest in “small sins” and pat ourselves on the back for “not being really bad”.
But the Bible says there is no way to heaven except through Christ who has cleansed us
Report Post »Texas.7
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 10:15amRamonPreston, I replied to you, but it went to the top of page 4 of this topic. You will find it there. Thanks
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 4:58pmThere are a LOT of people out there who like to think they are Christians, who have no idea of the role of satan in our modern world. His goal is to corrupt the church and possess God’s throne. It’s been going on a long, long time. One of his practices is to play down his own existence and influence. He must slander and discredit God’s Elect because they know where the evidence is hidden.
Report Post »His main malfunction is his present condition, he can only play on the “pee wee” field. He has lost his heavenly role and is now only vigorous on the earth. He IS vulnerable here, and he knows this.
The great book of Revelation clearly states that his plan is successful, early on and becomes more precarious as his evil intent becomes more and more obvious. But he does “RULE” the world for a time. The Elect needs and receives spiritual aid during this ‘tribulation’.
This is one mean, angry hombre and he has nothing more to lose and the whole world to gain.
All these other “distractions” though significant to some, pale in importance. Gird your loins.
TRUMPETCALL
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 9:29pmIs THIS at all CLEAR?
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Corinthians 6:9-11
Fairly CLEAR!!
Report Post »snooop1e
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 12:02am@IMSTEPH – There is sin that leads to death and sin that does not lead to death. 1 JOHN 5:16-17 Having a selfish thought does not lead to death, it wounds our relationship with Jesus Christ but it does not completely separate us from Him. Knowingly committing grave sin (such as fornication with the same sex) is choosing to separate ourselves from the will of God and severs our relationship with Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:26 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left”
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 2:28amChris,
You are conflating all sins being washed away for everyone who accepted Jesus with equality of sins. Just because all sins are washed away by accepting Jesus does not mean that God views all sins the same. Do you honestly think God views Hitler and someone who stole a candy bar in the same way?
There isn’t one person who has not sinned and fallen short. What does that mean? It means you might have stolen a candy bar you and you might not be that bad compared to other people but compared to God you are not as good as you think you are. That does not mean all sin is equal
Report Post »Wyo_cowboy3331
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:58pmRomans 1:26-27. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:32. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 2:4-6. Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
Report Post »5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”
inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:58pmYou need to define gay before you try to discuss it.
Is it:
– an attraction to the same sex
– a desire toward the same sex
– a physical attraction to the same sex
– a sexual attraction to the same sex
– socializing with the same sex
– committing yourself to the same sex
– holding hands with the same sex
– kissing the same sex
– hugging the same sex
– having physical relations with the same sex
– sodomy, etc
People are different and have different desires. Where do you draw the line?
What did God condemn?
Some people have an attraction to multiple people – is that wrong?
Some people have an attraction to people much younger than themselves.
Some married people are attracted to people outside their marriage.
I don‘t think it’s the attraction that is right or wrong – it’s what you do.
With all the physically attractive based links on web pages, i think that sex sells even to married people so where do you draw the line. Do you click on those links?
I am for maximum freedom for gay people, but I don’t call it marriage if they commit to each other legally or religiously – it’s just not in my definition.
From my religious point of view any sex outside of marriage is wrong and gay sex cannot be part of a marriage so it is wrong, but I‘ll let adults make their own decisions and I’ll leave God to judge.
Report Post »mycomet123
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:37pmThe Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a SIN. Romans 1:26-27. God’s kingdom IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!. It’s so easy to just let people do what they want & God be the judge, but that is not Biblicial sound! It clearly states that if you brother is sinning you should go privately & speak to him, & if he doesn’t listen go again with another believer, & if he still doesn’t listen depart from him.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:25pm@MYCOMET123
Then go privately and then please leave the church.
Your confidence that your sins are somehow less than a gay persons amazes me.
The idea that you would choose to distance a sinner further from God by not allowing them in a church is sad as well. All our churches would be empty for we are all sinners.
God bless you.
Report Post »mycomet123
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:31pm@INBLANK, You are correct in stating that we are all sinners BUT, there is a difference between sinning & repenting versus sinning & REFUSING TO EXCEPT THAT IT’S A SIN, even though the Bible states it clearly.
Report Post »mycomet123
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:42pm@INBLACK, You may want to refer to 1 Corinthians 5:5. TRUE LOVE tells the TRUTH, it doesn‘t tolerate let alone condone something that is intrinsically harmful to another’s soul. If you see someone nearing a cliff, don’t you have a morale obligation to warn them or does that only apply to the physical realm & not the spiritual realm.
Report Post »Fletcher13
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:49pmThose “pastor’s“ that know that they have ”gay members” are just as apostate as the homosexuals they allow to infect the Body with their degenerate cancer!
Any denomination that includes or turns a blind eye to accepting known homosexuals as members is not a Church, it is a fraud.
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 4:29pmGiven the many detrements associated with homosexuality, the Bible prohibition against homosexuality is arguably one of the many examples where the Bible exhibited knowledge that was ahead of its time.
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 5:13pmI doubt there are 2% of all American Christians that know why this country is fallen, although the reasons are recounted in the old and new testaments. It comes down to the place God has in the desires of the heart.
Report Post »Where do you put love of God in all your daily actions…day after day? The answer to this question will show your true character.
LouC57
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:58pmI can‘t pretend to know God’s infinite mercy. Wish I could remember the nickname of the poster here who sounds very much like a preacher, I‘m wondering what he’s thinking.
It’s hard to not judge. It’s hard to discern. All I can do is try hard to love everyone (man, that’s REALLY hard) and wish no one ill (not as hard). My fundamentalist background agrees homosexuality is sinful, wrong and so on. I lean that way myself, but this is an issue I’ll gladly defer to the Kingdom of the Almighty.
Frankly, i can’t get myself worked up on the issue, whether these folks are born that way or not, I have no clue. I think people are forced by society’s constant throwing sex-in-your-face are far more vulnerable than they were when there was a Moral Majority. Not trying to be unkind here, as I said, I’m trying to defer to the Most High.
But, oddly, if you ask me how I feel about muslim extremist butchers–I won’t hold my absolute hatred back.
such a hypocrite :(
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 5:47pmSatan has a false gospel, a false church and false co-workers; he is a false father–a father of liars and murderers. He has a counterfeit family and a law of sin. He is a false Christ and he comes on the scene with a false mystery.
Report Post »SpankDaMonkey
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:57pm.
Will someone please tell me again why we need gay people?……………..
And do I still have to tolerate them?……….
Once again God said for ya’ll not to put that in your mouth. That’s Nasty……
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:03pmGod made those people – therefore you have to love them.
With the name you have chosen on this site, I’m not sure where your head is, but remember that Jesus treated the sinners with love and kindness. Of all the generation of people, only Jesus could have cast the 1st stone without sin and he chose not to. Are you a Christian?
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:27pm@ inblack….why do people who want to site the “cast the first stone” passage always fail to include the important part at the end where Jesus says – “Go and sin no more”?
Report Post »SpankDaMonkey
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:35pm.
INBLACK,
God did not make Gay people that’s a free will thing……..
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:35pmExactly. Go and sin no more! In Christ, we are forgiven all that is past. In Christ, we are given life renewed and empowered. In Christ, we fight against the temptation to sin.
Live holy; live free in Christ!
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:36pm@Kaydee
“why do people who want to site the “cast the first stone” passage always fail to include the important part at the end where Jesus says – “Go and sin no more”?”
What is the new commandment Jesus left us? @Inblack’s absolutely right. God made them; we, as Christians, are called to love them as we would love ourselves. It doesn’t mean we need to accept or condone their sin; but neither should be hate them for sinning (we’re all sinners). If asked about it, respond truthfully. If not, their sin is between them and God… and their choices are their own. A good Christian will love them no matter what.
Report Post »James 2.26
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:59pm@ LOCKED
Report Post »Your theology is way off balance and you seem to have a knack for taking half of a verse to make your point. To answer your question this is what Yeshua said, “A new command I give you: Love one another. AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.” Jesus was never okay with allowing anyone to remain in their sin. He rebuked his disciples often when they took their eyes off God and placed them back in the world. Kaydee’s point was that He loved the woman but He also told her to STOP what she was doing. A homosexual can become a Christian but they cannot continue in their lifestyle.
inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:01pm@KAYDEEBEAU
I left the other part out because I was reminding someone not to judge – not reminding them to sin no more.
It does not say don’t judge unless they have sinned multiple times, if they have sinned multiple times then by all means stone them now.
Have you ever lied? Have you done it more than once? Being Christian is hard. We know we will fail, but we do not give up trying to be the best that we can. This is what we are called to do, among many other things.
Some people on this site are self-righteous and we know that that is an illusion. Only God is righteous and we are only saved through Christ’s love and death. So you people need to back off and pray for the sinners and try to help them, not judge them.
And you need to see the plank in your own eye.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:05pm@SPANKDAMONKEY
You are wrong, God did make every single one of us. AND we are all sinners, that is the free will thing.
If you choose to not love someone because they are gay, how can you love yourself or your wife, because you are a sinner too.
That said, God bless you, and I’m praying for both of us.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:17pm@James
“To answer your question this is what Yeshua said, “A new command I give you: Love one another. AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.” Jesus was never okay with allowing anyone to remain in their sin.”
You, unfortunately, seem to have not read my post. If you had, you would have seen I addressed this:
“It doesn’t mean we need to accept or condone their sin; but neither should be hate them for sinning (we’re all sinners).”
The full verse further clarifies my point: Jesus loves everyone, and we are called to do the same, no matter their sinfulness.
Report Post »girlnurse
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:29pm@INBLACK…Jesus said to the prostitute.. “Go and sin no more”…
He loved sinners…but he was trying to help them. He healed the demon possessed.
But His message was clearly to “Go and sin no more” “Be Holy for I AM Holy”
When we do sin, we can come and request forgiveness….but we are not to accept and live in perpetual and continual sin. Jesus died for our sins but we have to accept His sacrifice and repent which is something preachers rarely preach about any more (repentence).
“The recognition of sin is the beginning of salvation”.
Report Post »Author: Martin Luther
kaydeebeau
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:29pmThe latter part of the passage is important as the beginning.
The story of the woman caught in adultery was a much bigger lesson than most understand or want to know. The trap was laid for the woman and for Jesus. The men were using the woman, not becuase they really cared that she had committed adultery but to try to “one up” Jesus. They were falsely claiming outrage while they were blatanly and purposfully sinning.
This link tells the story beautifully – http://www.maxlucado.com/articles/topical/finding_courage_to_overcome_the_past
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:45pm@GIRLNURSE
No argument with that.
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:01pmWe all may be basically trying to say the same thing – hard to get the sentiments expressed exaclty as intended in such a small space of words
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:17pm@ Inblack by ending your last post above with this phrase “And you need to see the plank in your own eye.” is that a stone in your hand?
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 6:36pminblack…..I don’t want( unrepentant) deviants in my house, near my kids(or yours), I won’t break bread with one nor will I bless them with “Godspeed”. It would be the same with practicing thieves or assassins, prostitutes or pimps(there are many “reverends” In this last group) A discerning person will always know who is who and what is what.
Report Post »This is not to say that I believe they are doomed. Salvation is available.
When the Lord planted, the devil came right behind and scattered his own seed. These evil creatures are with us still and mean to harm the church and the Elect. I believe in discrimination.
I am “untrusting” and hard to convince.
snooop1e
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 12:14am@INBLACK – GOD tells us not to judge PEOPLE , He never told us not to judge BEHAVIOR. As Christians we are supposed to know very well what constitutes sin and what does not (how else do we avoid sin?) We must identify sin, we can love the sinner but anyone who is deliberately living in sin is not truly “repentant” and separates himself from the body of Christ, true repentance is turning from your former life of sin and living in Christ (as Christ lived) Christ is our model. We cannot serve 2 Masters SIN and JESUS. It’s one or the other. We are either slaves to SIN which brings death or Slaves to JESUS which brings eternal life. Jesus never condoned sin. God Bless
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:54pmGod has shown his love for His creation through the work of Jesus Christ. when you accept His plan of salvation then you are changed, the Holy Spirit helps you in your sanctification, (becoming more holy in the image of Jesus Christ) the homosexual can become a christian as everyone else can, but cannot be a practicing homosexual, although sanctification takes longer for some on certain issues of their lives than others. through prayer and the study of God’s Word all things are possible.
Report Post »LouC57
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:00pmRight, repentance.
Report Post »(note to self: learn something new every second)
VoteRightDammit
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:52pmMy new group:
GAY ADULTERERS!
WE CHEAT, ARE PROUD OF IT, AND ARE CHRISTIANS. REALLY!
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 7:03pmMY new group…the NAAPC….national association abolishing political correctness.
Report Post »No meetings. No dues. To become a member in good standing you must call it like you see it.
SpankDaMonkey
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:52pm.
“With a billboard and a set of talking points, gay Christians and their supporters are ready and willing to engage with critics about a plethora of issues.”
Ok, God said not to put that in your mouth in the first place. So what’s your excuse?…..
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:14pm“Ok, God said not to put that in your mouth in the first place. So what’s your excuse?…..”
Bet you don’t tell your wife that.
Sorry had to add some laughter to all of this
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:52pmJesus‘ House couldn’t possibly extend to gays, because the Father created Marriage as one man and one woman, opposites, and to get to the Father you have to go through the “Word” of Christ himself. If you can’t go through the word, then you’ll not have the Father. But I’m all for them getting married because a word is only a word without understanding, just as you see Jesus’ word, but without understanding his word it means nothing.
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:00pmIf in the eyes of a child a parent’s word has been wrecked, and the parent says “Quit throwing the ball in the house or I will take it away” but the parent has wrecked their own word because for two months the parent only made threats without following through, then the parent saying they will take away the ball is only words with no meaning. That’s why Jesus was here 2000 years ago, and he left his word, but Jesus had not made threats for 2000 years, but that he just left his word. And therefore I can guaranty you that because he didn’t accuse, while over-time making mundane threats that have become rote as with the parents in my example above, I can guaranty you that Jesus’ word is true as you will find out.
Report Post »TimeForReason
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:51pmI am really getting sick of the arrogance of people. It doesn’t matter what my or your opinion is. What does the Bible say? Homosexuals will NOT go to heaven, nor will any in the following list. You CAN go to heaven if your repent…
1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (10) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Rom 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (27) Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:18pmwe can not say none will go to heaven. I knew a gay guy in my church orchestra, wonderful musician, wonderful christian.
The difference was that he accepted God’s Law and understood what that meant for him. He chose not to marry since he could he was not attracted to women but he also chose NOT to be with men. He lived his life celibate and served the Lord.
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:24amSo…the only good queer is a celibate queer…….Ok.
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 8:48amdefine “good”. None of us are “good” gay or straight, we all fall short
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 6:05pmGood as in acceptable.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:50pmHomosexual acts are pretty clearly defined as sin. Homosexuality (ie, just attraction) is not… although it is said that one who looks lustfully has already committed adultery, so depending on your view of such things, you might be in trouble anyway. But let’s leave that aside for now.
Who here does not sin? Anyone?
*Crickets*
Then there‘s no reasons homosexuals can’t be Christians any more than divorcees, or unmarried people in monogamous sexual relationships, or even those who just sleep around. A sexual sin is a sin; and I guarantee you, there isn’t one Christian here without a sin to their names.
People do need to ask for forgiveness, but Jesus doesn’t expect us to be perfect; he knows we’ll mess up. And honestly God’s dealt homosexuals a crueler hand than most; while heterosexuals can eventually get married and find sinless sexual companionship, there’s no outlet for that in the Bible for gays. They will have to spend their lives knowing that even if they fall in love, the Bible calls the physical act of their love a sin. But that doesn’t mean they need to choose between love and Christ; they just need to ask forgiveness for their weakness… as do all who sin.
TL;DR Homosexuals (and anyone else) can be Christian as long as they love and follow Christ as much as possible.
Report Post »Southpaw
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:01pmI disagree that you are asking for forgiveness for weakness. You are asking forgiveness for sin, not your sinful nature. Asking for forgiveness for weakness and not the sin takes the responsibility away from the individual.
You cannot claim to be sorry and repentant while continuing on the same path. It doesn’t work that way.
Imagine if your spouse cheated on you, said they were sorry, then went out and cheated on you again and again. Are they sorry? Repentant? Forgiven? Maybe, but the continued action is the key factor.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:21pm@Southpaw
“I disagree that you are asking for forgiveness for weakness. You are asking forgiveness for sin, not your sinful nature. Asking for forgiveness for weakness and not the sin…”
I‘m not sure I’m understanding your wording. The sin is a sexual act outside of marriage; doesn‘t matter if it’s gay or straight. Attraction is not sinful (lust is; again, gay or straight). If you ask forgiveness for the act, that is the sin. The “weakness” is giving into it… which many couples do. If they ask forgiveness and try to avoid sin in the future, that’s what God wants, no?
The adultery situation is somewhat different, as your sin actively hurts the other person as well as your relationship with God. A person who stays with a cheater is an idiot, Christian or not. It’s the ONLY reason Jesus Himself allows for divorce. Whereas sex outside of marriage can be a sin done for love; still a sin, but not one that causes harm between a loving couple; just between the couple and God.
Report Post »James 2.26
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:53pm@ Locked
“…although it is said that one who looks lustfully has already committed adultery, so depending on your view of such things, you might be in trouble anyway.“ ”But let’s leave that aside for now.”
Depending on our view??? Why should we leave that aside for now? Because your point only works when we do? Sin is not in the act, it is in our hearts. That is why Yeshua made a point of saying those verses you want so badly to lay aside. These verses make your entire argument false.
Christians have to count the cost of following the Christ. He tells us that “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” Locked, you are deceiving people when you tell them it is okay to remain enslaved to their sin as long as they “ask forgiveness.”
One is not a follower of Yeshua if they “love and follow Christ as much as possible.” You have to follow with everything you are and sacrifice the parts of yourself that cling to the world you left behind.
If you want to follow Christ, you must make Him the Head of your life. You cannot remain in your old life. You cannot live for Him part time. It’s all or nothing. Please don’t be deceived by false teachers like Locked.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:04pm@James
Whoa, slow down there, sparky. I said “leave that aside for now” because it is the ACT in question. As I mentioned before (and you failed to respond), attraction does NOT equal lust. You can easily be attracted to someone without lusting for them. At least most people can; I’m not sure you are about to, as twice you’ve been unable to make this distinction.
“One is not a follower of Yeshua if they “love and follow Christ as much as possible.” You have to follow with everything you are and sacrifice the parts of yourself that cling to the world you left behind.”
You, sir, are either a walking contradiction or a liar. If you love and follow Christ as much as possible, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so any more than you are. If you are able to give up everything, then it is, by definition, as much as possible.
@James, you come across as a Pharisee, needing to make yourself seem superior to hide your own impiety. You should spread the words of Christ… while leaving your ego behind.
Report Post »girlnurse
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:34pmRight! But the point is: Do they admit homosexuality is a sin? NO. They want it to be “accepted” as the same as a heterosexual relationship. THAT is the part you will not see on their commercials or in the lamestream media..because its more of those Alinsky tactics and baby steps to “normalizing” homosexuality. Preachers better start preaching against sin again!
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:05pmLocked,
“The adultery situation is somewhat different, as your sin actively hurts the other person as well as your relationship with God. ”
No it is not. You seemed to be saying that a homosexual can keep living a gay lifestyle and just keep asking God for forgiveness and everything is fine. That is not what the Bible says. If that is what you are saying it leaves two possibilities.
1. The person was not saved
2. The person is in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This is the only unforgivable sin.
“. As I mentioned before (and you failed to respond), attraction does NOT equal lust. You can easily be attracted to someone without lusting for them. ”
When a man tells a women that he is attracted to her does that mean he wants her to be his best friend and is not interested in any kind of a sexual relationship?
If a dude told you that he was attracted to you, would you take that to mean there was no sexual connotation to his comment?
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:13pmNurse,
“because its more of those Alinsky tactics and baby steps to “normalizing” homosexuality.”
I think they have pretty much accomplished normalizing homosexuality. This is really about attacking the churches. Once you see the churches being attacked it is a very bad sign of what is coming over the horizon.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:41pm@Girlnurse
” Do they admit homosexuality is a sin? NO.”
Attraction is not a sin. Lust is. Adultery is. Sodomy is. Attraction (which is what homosexuality is) is not. You seem to be using the incorrect terms here?
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:48pmlocked,
When a man tells a women that he is attracted to her does that mean he wants her to be his best friend and is not interested in any kind of a sexual relationship?
If a dude told you that he was attracted to you, would you take that to mean there was no sexual connotation to his comment?
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 7:57pmIn order for your assertion that attraction is not a sin to be correct, you would have to believe that when a man tells a women that he is attracted to her, that has absolutely no sexual connotation to it whatsoever. If a man said that he was attracted to you, you would also have to believe that he had absolutely no sexual connotation in mind.
Obviously, we both know that isn’t true and your point to defend Christian homosexuality has gone down the toilet.
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:06pmLocked,
Report Post »Since attraction is a sexual desire, that would just be another way of saying lust. As Jesus said, if being attracted to a women is a sin, that would also apply to homosexuals. This is probably why you ignored my comment and addressed G.N’s point.
4truth2all
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 9:39pmYo Locked:
Not sure I follow you’re logic … repent means to turn around, to change direction, to not do what was being done. So the person who has gay thoughts or attractions as you put it is to bring those thoughts under control and change their thinking or attractions, just as a man is to stop lusting in his heart, the person who is gay is to stop the same sex “attraction”. GOD CHANGES HEARTS … a person does not continue as they were … How many verses do I need to write to back this up?
Report Post »KStret
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:18am4,
Locked is trying to defend homosexuals being Christian by arguing that attraction is not sexual. He thinks if gays are attracted to the same sex that is not a sin.Hence, you can be attracted to the same sex but it’s not a sin unless you have sex.
The flaw in his argument is that attraction is sexual and is just another word for lust. I am sure if you told him that you feel like you climbed really high on the rope in gym class and you think that you are attracted to him, he would not think that was sexual in any way.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 4:41pm@Kstret
“The flaw in his argument is that attraction is sexual and is just another word for lust.”
Absolutely false. They are very different terms. Your insults aside, you apparently cannot see any one in terms except for sexual. That’s the only reason I can think of for why you think lust is equal to attraction. Either that or English is not your native language, in which case I apologize.
Do you find your mother attractive? Your daughters? Do you lust for them?
Report Post »Do you find your hometown attractive? Your country? Does that mean you lust after every single thing in them?
KStret
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 2:45amLocked,
“Absolutely false.”
Really? Why didn’t you answer my questions then?
“They are very different terms. Your insults aside, you apparently cannot see any one in terms except for sexual. That’s the only reason I can think of for why you think lust is equal to attraction.”
When a man tells a women that he is attracted to her does that mean he wants her to be his best friend and is not interested in any kind of a sexual relationship?
If a dude told you that he was attracted to you, would you take that to mean there was no sexual connotation to his comment?
“Do you find your mother attractive? Your daughters?”
No I don’t and I would never use that term to describe how I feel abut a family member.
“Do you find your hometown attractive? Your country? Does that mean you lust after every single thing in them?”
You are equivocating. Saying that you think a house that you are thinking about buying is an attractive house is not the same as saying that you are attracted to a member of the opposite sex. Whenever you say you are attracted to a person, it has a sexual meaning.
Would the the statement: Locked is attracted to his mother
Report Post »be construed as
A. Sick
B. an insult
C. meaning that you just really like your mom.
KStret
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 12:25pmLocked,
“Your insults aside”
I did not insult you.
You are asserting that homosexuals can be attracted to each other and that is not a sin as long as they don’t act on it. You are equivocating with the meaning of the word ‘attracted’. You are equivocating between being sexually attracted to someone and being attracted to a inanimate object, a concept or a place.
The very definition of a homosexual is someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex. Being attracted to the same sex is a sin that would require someone to repent of even if they do not act on it. The context of homosexual attraction is not the same as finding a house attractive.
You obviously know this or you would have answered my questions.
Report Post »SPOT_OF_TEA
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:50pmThere is an attack on Christianity on many different levels and this is just another attack only this attack is within…..You have the outer forces banning Jesus from society and we also have inner forces such as Chrislam.Also now atheists and Gays are joining churches calling themselves Christians on purpose to eventually change Christian beliefs…As someone once siad in order for them to succeed they have to change our history…Now who was that?
Report Post »girlnurse
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:44pmThat would be Moochelle…
Report Post »term limits for congress
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:49pmAww Naww!!! Next they’ll claim that smokers and drinkers can be Christians, too. (And, we know they can’t be!) I’ll put the gays in the same catetory with the dancers, make-up wearin’ floozies, smokers, and drinkers.
Luckily, I am perfect.
Report Post »youdidthis
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:48pmjust re-write the bible…
why not? been done more than a few times.
put in/leave out what ya want…designer bibel’s are us.
anyone can be a decent human being…it is called having common flukin sense.
Report Post »SacredHonor1776
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:51pmJefferson Bible?
Report Post »James 2.26
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:22pmThat’s actually woefully inaccurate. The text we have today is extremely close to the original texts. Scholars call it an “embarrassment of riches.” We have over 5000 copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin, and 5,000 in other languages; all going back before the printing press and many dating to within decades of the originals. The church fathers quoted the New Testament over a million times and independently quoted almost the entire New Testament.
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:51amYoudidthis – What would be defined on what a decent human being would be?
Report Post »Itsjusttim
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:48pmJesus’ love does extend to all, but it‘s Jesus’ house in Heaven that doesn’t.
Report Post »Southpaw
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:47pmI am not sure it if is apples to apples, but to me being a Gay Christian is sort of like being an openly alcoholic AA counselor. It’s sort of hard to pick one sin and say it OK to do THAT one. Can you be attracted to the same sex and Christian? Sure. The difference is acting on impulses. I can be a Christian who occasionally wants to steal things, lie, cheat on my wife, hurt people, etc. The key is that I am not A: Acting on those desires and B: Attempting to take the sinfulness out of those desires.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:52pm“being a Gay Christian is sort of like being an openly alcoholic AA counselor.”
I think all AA counselors are alcoholics; I‘m thinking you don’t really understand AA. You never become a “former alcoholic;” you always have to confront the desire. Hence why they open with “I’m So-and-So, and I’m an alcoholic.”
Report Post »Southpaw
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:03pmI specified OPENLY alcoholic. It doesn‘t mean you aren’t struggling, it means you aren’t acting on the struggles.
You shouldn’t lead an AA group while drunk.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:24pm“I specified OPENLY alcoholic. It doesn‘t mean you aren’t struggling, it means you aren’t acting on the struggles.”
I believe you meant “drunk” then. Openly alcoholic, again, is exactly what all AA counselors are.
To give a relevant analogy, it would be the difference between a homosexual leading a prayer group, and two men fornicating while leading the group.
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:40pmTry “active alcoholic”
Report Post »cemerius
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:46pmI think a better campaign should be…Catholic Priests Marry? YES!
Report Post »westtitus
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:10pmA Priest “chooses” to not be married. He knows what it means to be a Priest and if you want to marry there are plenty of other religions you can join. What does this have to do with anything? I could care less if you are gay or just a fornicator (living with someone) you don’t put signs up saying it is ok to live out of wedlock so why would it be ok to put one up saying it is ok to be a gay christian? It is clearly a sin as living with someone and if you do the acts you are not a Child of God because you are not “Born Again”. If you are truly “Born Again” you will not want to sin against God period. I know how I was before and I know how I am now and there a huge difference. Everyone says OH but you can‘t do this or you can’t do that, but guess what, you don’t WANT to do those things anymore and that is the differece my friend.
Report Post »The Third Archon
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 6:43pmIt IS okay to live out of wedlock though–it’s just YOU who believes otherwise, not the default belief, nor necessarily the truth.
Report Post »NHwinter
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:44pmI think the can be gay and Christian. They need to refrain from sexaul relations, just like all single people are supposed to do. If they can do that, then they can be gay and Christian.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:52pmAgreed. Just like an alcoholic can be Christian if he doesn’t drink. Some in both groups have argued that they were born that way. I think it’s a good analogy.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:26pmWhile I agree with the idea, we have to admit we are all sinners. Therefore sinning does not make you a non-Christian. Only turning your back on God can.
If you cheat or lie you are a sinner and if you are committed to God, you will fight that and try over and over to not sin. To me, not giving up on what Jesus asks of us is what is important.
I do find it funny that as Christians we get so hung up on gays. Pornography, masturbation, premarital sex or oral sex are just as wrong.
How do sex sins compare to lying, judging, insulting, rumoring, or not helping someone in need?
I’m not making excuses for people, but some of you seem to be awfully comfortable in your condemnation.
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:34pm@INBLACK
I really don’t see where they said ANY sexual sin was ok.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 4:52pm@CHRISTELLE
You are right, but we seem to get a lot more heated condemnation of gays than of pornography, divorce, premarital sex or even abortion. I’m not saying gay sex is ok, just that we seem to get hung up on that one a lot.
Report Post »christelle
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 5:00pmI think all of those sins cause deep sadness. Even though the world would have us believe other wise.
Some of us truly believe all sin is equal, that is what the Bible says. Other do kinda get caught up on homosexuality because they like to “categorize” sins. Which in itself is kinda sin since you are judging.
Sigh……………..
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 9:53pmYo Gonzo:
By definition an alcoholic IS someone who has an addiction to alcohol / drinks. If one stops drinking they are then a “former” alcoholic.
God breaks the chains of that addiction.
Report Post »I struggled with drugs/ alcohol/ sex (not gay) and smoking. I am free from these things today. I do not refer to myself nor any christian I know as an alcoholic/drugie, I am not a sinner I am a saint and that is the way God sees me.
Docrow
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:39pmWell said.
Report Post »alwayshappy
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:39pmI believe a person can be both gay and Christian. But if they are, then they have the same obligation to live an upstanding moral life just like a Christian who is straight. Quit asking for exceptions!
Report Post »CapitalistUno
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:44pmRomans 1:26 – For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Report Post »Romans 1:27 – And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:28 – And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
TSUNAMI-22
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:57pmThe Bible dictates that homosexuality is an abomination and immoral, so how can a homosexual live an upstanding “moral” life?
Not trying to pick on you, but it seems like your comment is contradictory. I think our country has been so brainwashed into thinking “tolerance” that we expect that we can have our cake and eat it too.
I don’t have anything against homosexuals per se, but I don’t feel sorry for them either. I can’t remember when heterosexuality was deemed a protected class.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 3:40pm@CAPITALISTUNO
So if I read your selected quotes correctly, gays are just the ones that are being punished because people like you and I have been immoral and misused the relationship between man and woman.
It is lewd sex, pornography, Victoria Secret and Miss America that are the sins. The result is the gay people who are cursed to have sex with the same sex.
Do you read it differently?
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 8:08pmI read it and I think that I do understand it. It is my understanding that in the old days the ruling elite would bolster their authority and command the obedience of the people by claiming that every law they passed was dictated to them by God.
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:37pmYou may not be able to change sexual orientation, but don’t make sex your god. We all have some kind of genetic defect, but most do not inhibit our lives completely. Neither does that defect drive us fm the presence of a Holy God. Don’t make sexuality and sexual activity more important than obeying God. Obedience is a sign and symptom of living faith!
Resist the devil and he must flee if you are in Christ. If you are in Christ, resist the desire to live outside of God’s game plan. Be alive in faith!
Report Post »alwayshappy
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:37pmMarriage is between a man and woman. Like it or not. It is! Gay people need to wake-up to the reality of thousands of years of belief, practice, and tradition. Call your relationships what you will, but please do not insult us by trying to call or consider your relationships as ‘marriage’. Commit yourselves to one another as you see fit and the Lord will judge your accordingly. But to play games with marriage is simply unaceptable!
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:34pmWhen an act is sin as described by God, and you, at the time of your supposed acceptance of Salvation, are knowingly going to continue in that sin, you haven’t truely repented so there can be no such thing as a gay christian
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:39pmYeah I have a hard time seeing how you can be both. I mean God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah not because they were not believers, he destroyed them for the horrible acts.
Report Post »Docrow
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 2:40pmWell said
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 8:41pmNonsense. If you accept the divinity of Jesus and try to follow his teachings, you are a Christian. You don’t have to be a fundamentalist who believes that every word of the Bible is the word of God. You can believe that some of it is just mythology, or a bunch of old rules and regulations that people of the time tried to pass off as the word of God in order to get others to obey. Fundamentalists hate to admit it, but that’s what most of the people in this country who identify themselves as Christians think, and if you reject their claim to be Christians, then this is not a Christian country with a Christian majority.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 9:58pmYo Chet:
If you would be so kind, could you please point out the parts that are true, so I don’t waste my time reading the other ones.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 5, 2012 at 10:34pm4truth2all
Report Post »Sorry dude, for the most part you just have to look in your heart and ask yourself is this something that the God I want to believe in would say. But just to point out a few obvious examples: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,’ that one I agree with, but “And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast” (Lev 20:15), that seems so completely unfair to the beast, that I just don’t buy it. “As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.” (Deut 23:13), I certainly agree with this but I wonder, is that really something that we need a divine revelation to know? Is something like that, which even mere humans should be able to figure out for themselves, more important than telling people not to keep other people as slaves, which he never got around to mentioning? Not eating pigs, that one strikes me as a man-made health regulation that makes a lot of sense if the pigs are allowed to run around eating garbage and excrement, but is out of date if you live somewhere the pigs eat the same food as the cows. Oh, and gay sex being an abomination? No. No decent person believes that nonsense Anyone who thinks that’s the word of God is just mean.
Tim Law
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 12:40amA few truth’s! God is, God has always been, God will always be! The bible is the Word of God written by the Holy Spirit threw men. Jesus Christ is the living Word of God. Jesus Christ has always been with God, Jesus Christ is God,and will always be God. We are instructed to Love our God with all our hearts, our strength, our minds and our spirits. We are instructed to love our neighbor as our selfs. We are not to choose who to love! We are not to choose what parts of the bible are true! You either believe every single Word of God or you don’t believe any of them. There is no choice when it comes to the Word of God! The Word has never changed and it never will. Read the Word, pray ( really pray ) for understanding, let the Spirit guide you! God‘s Word is truth and all truth is found in God’s Word!
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:07amThere is a choice. You can believe in God and Jesus, but not believe that Noah’s Ark is a true story or that God has anything against gay people loving each other in a way that will make them happy. You can look at what people claim to be the word of God and choose to accept some of it and reject some of the rest. You may not trust your own heart and mind to choose wisely, but that is what most people do, and it is the only way that people are going to continue to accept any of what you believe instead of throwing away the important parts along with the parts you won’t admit aren’t important.
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 2:49amChet – If you decide to cherry pick, then you can’t claim to be a Christian. It’s being dishonest, which is what the Lord is against.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 10:25amYo Chet:
“the God you want to believe in” … there is you’re flaw. God is not what YOU want him to be. HE is who He tells you He is.
Trust you’re heart you say …“ the heart is deceitful above all things” … guess that’s one of the verses you have no use of.
Not boasting, but I could pick apart everything you said … it’s clear you trust yourself and not God
I could get 10 people that believe as you do and line them up, and I would get 10 different answers… so, will the REAL God please stand up!
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 3:14pm“the God you want to believe in” … there is you’re flaw. God is not what YOU want him to be. HE is who He tells you He is.
No, the God you believe in is what people tell you that He told them He is. You have chosen to believe everything that you are told about what God has told other people. Others have chosen not to believe what they are told. It’s not that I trust myself and not God. It’s just that I trust myself more than I trust other people who tell me about God.
will the REAL God please stand up!
That would make things easier, but He hasn’t done that for thousands of years, if he ever did it.
Report Post »Max jones
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 6:53pmCHET hempstead…..Sounds like a duck walks like a duck must be a duck. Every word in the bible is there for you to read and try to understand….for your own sake, stop using your own suppositions, and pray for understanding.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 9:04pmNo CHET:
The God I believe in is the God who tells me who he is in His WORD, and I have studied the history of that in my search for truth.
I read and study for MYSELF and listen to others because a fool is unto himself.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 6, 2012 at 10:08pm4truth2all
I read and study for MYSELF and listen to others because a fool is unto himself.
Yes, but your belief that what you read and study of yourself is the word of God is based entirely on believing what you’re told to by others.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 9:05amNO CHET:
I do not believe everything I hear … wanna know why … cause many people teach badly or plain slimply it is false teaching, and the ONLY way to know this is to do my own homework and compair to what scripture says which is exactly what scripture says I am to do.
Report Post »Do not ADD or SUBTRACT from it … know that one?
Get wisdom , knowledge and understanding … know that one?
Do you know the names of the people mentioned in scripture that after listening to someone teach they would go and search their own scriptures for the TRUTH of what they heard?
Do you understand decernment, and that we are be decerning?
Scripture say’s to search scripture for the truth … what more can I say.
Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 3:13pmI’m talking about the scripture. The only reason to believe that the scripture is the word of God is that you were told that it was. Some people have examined this question for themselves and decided that it is not. Some have examined the question for themselves and decided that some is and some isn’t. There is no logical reason to hold their belief to be less rational and informed than your own.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 3:34pmOh yeah, and the whole don’t add or subtract thing, the Bible says that twice in Deuteronomy and Revelation. If you were to allow yourself to question the divine origin of the scripture, those would be two of the books that would raise the most suspicions of fallible human origin – Deuteronomy because it prescribes the death penalty for even the most minor transgressions, and Revelation because its predictions of things that never happened make a lot more sense in the context of the time that it was written than they do if you twist them around to try to pretend that they are about the world of the present day.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 9:14pmYo Chet:
Report Post »In you’re first post April 5 8:41pm you mention the divinity of Christ as a believer. I assumed you were talking about you. Now you question the divinity of the entire scriptures, yet you say that you believe some of it.
You are like a race car driver driving 400 miles in circles and ending up at the same place you started at.
Talk about talking nonsence…………….why do I bother………….
Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 7, 2012 at 11:53pmIt may seem like nonsense to you, but most of the people in America do believe in the divinity of Christ and do not believe that every word of every book of the Bible is divinely revealed truth, and it is no more illogical to hold both of these beliefs at the same time than it is to believe in Columbus’ discovery of America while rejecting the made-up folk tale that everybody else in Europe thought that the world was flat up until then. As for your last question, “why do I bother?” God alone knows.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 8, 2012 at 12:00amOr try this – believing in the divinity of Christ, but not in the divine origin of the whole Bible is no crazier than believing in cats, but not believing that The Cat in the Hat was written by a cat.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 8, 2012 at 5:59pmYo Chet:
You’re defence is perfect (almost), you pick what suits you and disreguard the rest for whatever reason you decide. I cannot use scripture with you as you’re defence only allows through what you what … it’s genious and brilliant! (Please read Genesis 3) Satan (if you believe in him) still uses this lie quite successfully to this day. Why change it… it works great!
I used scripture to defend scripture and could post a whole lot more of it for most everything I say. Scripture say’s that we are to speak the TRUTH to one another.( know the verse?) This works on two different levels – 1) to simply be honest. 2) to use scripture (truth), but because you do not abide to that it greatly hinders our conversation and disallows you further understanding. So, if indeed you are saved at all there is no growth. Again, as iron sharpen iron, so one man sharpens another ( as scripture say’s). Which means that you remain a dull knife because it is the truth of scripture that actually is doing the sharpening through us in our honesty with one another. So while you’re defence is brilliant it IS NOT from God, so it is to you’re own detrement.
ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16)
Report Post »Sir I teach … I would never use this verse ( though many do) with unbelievers, because the message is for believers. This one verse alone completely destroys you’re almost perfect defence.
4truth2all
Posted on April 8, 2012 at 6:18pmChet cont.
IF and I repeat IF you are interested in TRUTH. If you indeed are a true believer you‘re position only does damage to yourself and you’re place in eternity that is dependent on what you/we do here. This is not the wisdom God calls us to.
I give you scripture as my defence and you give me Cat in the hat. If this is to be you‘re continued reply don’t bother …. as to why I do… yes, God does know … I will receive a reward because I sincerely am interested in helping you see the truth of Gods Word to you’re own benifit, and this I KNOW, cause the bible tells me so. I will not stand in front of God one day and have him say to me …“ Oh ye of little faith”.
I HIGHLY suggest you read the book by C.S.Lewis called The Screwtape Letters … if you are willing to provide info I will purchase and ship it to you…. sincerely
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 8, 2012 at 7:06pmYou are never going to convince me or the majority of modern day Christians that the entirety of the Bible is the word of God for two very good reasons – some of it isn’t true, and some of it is evil. For example, we know that the story of the Flood, if it is based on a true story at all, is a wild exaggeration, because there were people living in other parts of the world who didn’t drown and animals that only lived in other parts of the world that are not extinct, and more different kinds of animal all over the world than could fit on one boat. Much of the Old Testament is evil by the standards of any morally conscious person of our era. It proscribes the death penalty for everything from disrespecting your father to trying to convert people to another religion. How can any of that monstrous nonsense be the word of a perfect, all-knowing God? Is He perfect now, but just okay back then? Was He all-wise and perfect back then and now he’s even better? Was it the word of God, but tailored for the people of a different time and place? That would be effectively the same as saying that it wasn’t all the word of God, since we’re living in a time and place more different from the world of the New Testament than their world was from that of the Old Testament,so it would still be up to us to pick and choose what parts of the scriptures still make sense.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 8, 2012 at 8:56pmOops. I mean “It prescribes the death penalty,” which is of course the opposite of proscribes. I’m usually very careful about that one.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 8, 2012 at 9:50pmSo be it, but I would suggest you find some good christian science sites and learn, because what you said concerning the flood and the ark … not true, but it does not sound to me you are interested in truth. And Jesus said He was the way the TRUTH and the life. So again, IF Jesus is you‘re saviour truth is one’s pursuit. What you say to me causes great concern.
If you wish to follow the path well traveled, good luck!
Report Post »Would you like to know the verse that speaks to that … no luck involved and it does not end good. Futher, to call the bible evil is a serious step in the wrong direction.
Finally: if what you say concerning the majority is actually true it might be why the “church” in America and America itself is so screwed up.
No faith … No power … No effect …
I tried …….
Chet Hempstead
Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:19amOkay, it’s been fun. I love a good argument, but I don’t engage in debate with people who convince themselves that they can cherry pick scientific and historical knowledge to support a reading of the Book of Genesis as anything more than allegorical myth. I regard that as a form of intellectual corruption, a mental degeneracy that dishonors rather than respects God’s will by spurning His greatest gift to us, and one of the strongest pieces of evidence for His existence, our human minds. Anyway, this all started with some guy saying that gays can’t be Christians, and I think we can call that one settled, because as much as it may distress you that I cling to ideas that you consider wrong, you’ve always known better than to try to claim that these views were in any way unique to me or rare among professed Christians. They aren’t even rare among the clergy of the some of the long-established mainstream Protestant denominations that still make up a large percentage of American Christendom.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on April 9, 2012 at 8:42amYo Chet:
Again, scripture (that evil book) does not speak well of those that love to sit and argue. Not my purpose at all.
YOU GOTTA BE JOKING ME … you accuse ME of cherry picking. You have NO idea of my knowledge of science or my efforts taken to bring me to my present understanding.
I take it then that you believe Moses to be a complete lunitic, or you don’t believe he lived, or that he didn’t write the first 5 books, but was a nice guy …. where does it stop Chet?
In speaking here with you, you sound far more like an atheist then a believer, and I don’t mean that as an insult.
Finally; there will be those that say to Me Lord, Lord. But Jesus will say to them depart from me I do not know you.
I am curious… Why do you call yourself a christian, and for how long.
Report Post »I have given you simple biblical principles (elementary math if you will), and other advice and you completely ignor it. This is not very wise and believe that you’re pride blinds you to the truth. I will again say that I am not interested in what the “MAJORITY” thinks, and attempting to go with the flow. AGAIN. scripture say’s to do the opposite, so that’s my heading……..