Gay Is Now OK for Presbyterian Clergy
- Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:31am by
Emily Esfahani Smith
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NEW YORK (AP) — After decades of debate, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) on Tuesday struck down a barrier to ordaining gays, ratifying a proposal that removes the celibacy requirement for unmarried clergy, in the latest mainline Protestant move toward accepting gay relationships.
The change was endorsed last year by the Presbyterian national assembly, but required approval by a majority of the denomination’s 173 presbyteries, or regional church bodies.
Before Tuesday, the vote stood at 86-62 in favor of change. The Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area, based in Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minn., cast the key 87th vote needed for a majority in support of ratification came during a meeting Tuesday night. So far, 62 presbyteries have voted against the measure.
Differences over the Bible and homosexuality have split Protestant groups nationally and worldwide for years. Within the Presbyterian Church, about 100 of the 11,000 congregations had already broken away ahead of the vote, but a group of large theologically conservative congregations, which calls itself Fellowship, has decided to remain in the denomination for now.
The measure approved Tuesday eliminates language in the church constitution requiring that clergy live “in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness.“ The new provision instead requires ministers to ”submit joyfully to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all aspects of life.” Each regional body will decide who it should ordain, and some districts are expected to continue to reject gay and lesbian candidates.
The new policy would take effect on July 10, after all presbyteries complete their voting.
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), based in Louisville, Ky., is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the country.
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Comments (174)
Tyr
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:44amSo wait a second, I read on The Blaze all the time that Christianity is the ONE true religion. But you Christians yourselves say the “denomination” separates the different beliefs of various Christians. If the latter is the case, then Chritianity cannot be the ONE true religion, because there are numerous versions of it. Do you people ever listen to yourselves, or are you really that good at denial, and self-deception? Think people. This is not meant to be an insult, but your logic is flawed beyond all recognition.
Report Post »NYSTREETKID
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:13amYou are right.The church was warned about this 2000 yrs ago.The churchis built on a very pure,but brittle rock.The person in it most be true to one’s ownself.That to say you give most be total.The splits in the church go back to the what in it for me crowd. Then if he can do it,so can on crowd set up.The Faith.The message or Our lord is not split.It is man,taken what he wants and displacing anything that “he” think is not a go fit.The world faith that mankind has taken to the chop shop.We custom build our own churches in our image.Tyr.You are right about the people.Not the God who,loved and still loves us. We failed him, not him us. I am truly sorry,I think you are looking for what man has alway seached for ,Why?. The God of our father knew,our grandfather knew, We are the lost ones.Not God
Report Post »vennoye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 10:26amTYR
Report Post »Don’t confuse religion with Faith. You have faith in the one true GOD……ALL religious systems are man made! Think at last count, we are up to 38,000 different systems, all supposed to be serving the same GOD. If you want an example of how Jesus felt about religious systems, look at what he said to the Pharisees!!! They were the religious system of his time. He said pay attention to their reading of the Torah in the Synagogues, but do NOT do what they do. Things are still the same today…..the Bible (all of it) is still the only truth, not some denominational doctrines. Don’t think a one of them (denominations) have it all right!! Because in the end, it doesn’t matter what they think, what we think…..it only matters what GOD thinks. He is the final authority.
marjorie faye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:32pmThere is what is known as the universal church. These are the believers of all times who Christ in heaven acknowledges as his own. Human beings are frail creatures. They have divisions among themselves. Many are not even true Christians at all but rather are in it for the prestige that being in a particular denomination in a particular town gives them politically and socially. There are many reasons why people join churches. In the end, Christ will assess. The Bible says that he will say to some, “Depart from me. I never knew you.” Read the New Testament to learn about Christ and the church he established. It’s composed of those who have a sincere relationship with Christ based on scriptural teachings. Cuts across denominational lines, though some denominations are so utterly contrary to Christ‘s essential teachings that it’s a farce. But again, in the end, we will face him one on one, not as a group.
Report Post »lhills
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:43amPlease don’t call them “Presbyterians” the PC(U.S.A.) are the hippie idiots of the Presbyterian Church. The PCA( Presbyterian Church of America), Orthodox Presbyterians, and Reformed Presbyterians are still solid Bible believing churches. This branch of “Presbyterians” has clearly abandoned the gospel and replaced it with political correctness. Any PCUSA pastor who is serious about his faith, needs to switch denominations.
Report Post »paladin252
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 2:43pmi am a PCA member. we would NEVER allow that. its the part of why we broke away from the PCUSA was because they were WAY too liberal. PCA are still deeply rooted in the Bible.
Report Post »rharmon76
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:40amThe answer is easy. Study the Torah. These are Yahweh’s COMMANDS. The Torah is overlooked and/or looked on as “not applicable” to the christian community, but we have been “grafted into” Yahweh’s chosen. We are not a seperate group. Jesus was a Jew and followed the Torah. If Yahweh’s Word is eternal and does not change, they why would he give us different sets of rules? He wouldn’t! He knew that things like this would happen if we were not to follow his Word. Read, read, read. For so long I have just taken the word of others on what the Bible says. Read it again. It is Amazing!
Report Post »Liberal_Atheist_Critical_Thinker
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:34amchina clipper said -
“Anyone dumb enough to belong to that denomination deserves what they get.”
But how can that be? Surely the members of this denomination have “felt in their hearts” that it’s the One True Denomination ™. How cold they feel so strongly about it and be wrong? Very odd, very odd.
Report Post »NYSTREETKID
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:59amIt not odd, the whole fact of faith is to serve a God or system of belief.If you make yourself . over seer of The god you are“worshipping”. Then You are higher then what you worship.The fact is that people here want their cake and eat it too.They have ideas of being right,faithfull and pure.They dont want however to be tied down with any type of code,like let us say something, like the bible. It is down right hobbeling,Those rules to live by.The nasty little thing called sin,just get in the way of worshipping “God”. It more like we are worshipping ourselves. We dare to say we are Faithful to the lord or what ever their so called beliefs are in.the “I just want to do it my way” church.Christ warn about those who would come to steal and kill.He was talking about those who would lead the church to its dome.He called that one,Mr. Thinker,if you dont mind me calling you that.If you dont believe in the rules, why play the game.If you dont like the areas laws, why live there.If you dont like the faith’s rules, why be in it.If You think this understanding is true.Then the real reason is to take the faith apart from with in .Again ,“think”.Why? To remove it. Why? to stop it from stopping whatever it is against.Maybe this is what is called a fight between Good and evil.But,who is on the right side.well,that where Faith comes in.Faith in a God or in mankind
Report Post »marjorie faye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:48pmPeople in the church are wrong all the time, Atheist. The only one who is totally correct is Christ himself. There is nothing in the New Testament stating that Christians will be perfect or always have the right idea. Christianity is about Christ, not the imperfect people who serve him. It is a striving to be like Christ, to permit him to conform us to his character and nature. Some aren’t really into that. There are just all kinds of reasons as to why denominations differ, many of which aren’t valid, scripturally speaking. He will judge it all in the end, when he says to many, “Depart from me. I never knew you.”
Report Post »china clipper
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:26amAnyone dumb enough to belong to that denomination deserves what they get.
Report Post »eric6161
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:23amThis church quit being a Christian church years ago. Most of the Christians split from it and formed other churches. The title without the “U.S.A.” leaves readers believing all Presbyterians hate Israel, love gay marriage, love cheating spouses, etc. and that is simply not so. The U.S.A. church I went to as a child in the ’60s was teaching social justice back then but we went because the men all talked business over the doughnuts after services.
Report Post »suzy000
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:17amVery liberal governments do this to a nation. Do you think this would have happened under a conservative president? I really don’t think so. The question is how do you get the genie back in the bottle? Or are we doomed as a nation?
Report Post »ByrdsofMisssouri
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:49amUnfortunately our government of the present reflects the level to which our moral decay has grown. While I have to live in this world, I as an individual do not have to stoop to this level. God gave us free choice and we are responsible as to what we do with it. This nation may be doomed, but I am striving for that perfect home.
Report Post »Liberal_Atheist_Critical_Thinker
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:15amSam the Casual Movie Guy said -
“The Catholic Church still hold the moral high ground (let’s not confuse individuals with the institution Herself).”
I guess you’ve heard of pedophile priests in the institution of the Catholic Church, and you say it holds the moral high ground?
Wow. What a corrupt and shameful institution.
Report Post »marjorie faye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:44pmChristianity is about Christ. He said that, in the end, he will say to many,”Depart from me. I never knew you.” Pointing out the horrible shortcomings of various groups, such as perverted priests, is definitely valid. There is much to rail against in the outward practices you see in individuals and groups within established denominations. But at all times there are always those who sincerely worship and serve Christ to the best of their ability. They go quietly about their lives doing good to others and trying to be the best they can be inwardly because of their love for Christ. And they far out-number those perverted priests. So, yes, it is correct to note the perverted priests. But it is completely incorrect to never be honest enough to point out the large number of Christians who are model citizens, loving and caring, and doing good in their communities. How about a little balance, hmmm?
Report Post »capitalismrocks
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:14amThe gay thing is one whole story in itself, but the celibacy part is unacceptable… Men the cloth give a level of devotion to God and are supposed to not want for the flesh… this is a continued break down of the church as it instead of trying to lift people up to a higher standard, it continues to lower itself to be PC…
Report Post »sbleve
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:06amChurch organizations that are omnibus in characteristics may reflect the very issue that is at our Nation government and today’s turmoil.
That provocative rebel Martin Luther – money does not buy salvation. Money given to the poor is not an automatic ticket.
Report Post »Tony
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:06amIn Rev 3:20 Jesus says in the last letter to the seven churches, a church that thinks it is rich and needs nothing, the church that marks the end of the church age, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him, and will dine with him, and he with me.” Note that the Head of the Church, the Christ, the Word, is no longer welcome in this church…. Clearly, this “denomination” has no need for “The Word” having become wise in its own eyes (Prov 3:5-7). Nimrod would be proud.
Report Post »ByrdsofMisssouri
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:31amGod knows why they are doing this and they shall be judged accordingly. Very good comment!
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
1Cr 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
Report Post »discipleall
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:04amFirst, a denomination has women elders and pastors which then leads to homosexual leadership. It is happening at our church. I refuse to give my tithe to a conference that promotes unbiblical standards.
Report Post »Rational Minds Will Prevail
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:22amWomen elders… The horror!
I’m always curious how people such as yourselves reconcile your own sinfulness while condemning others… “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”
Jesus associated with prostitutes, thieves and tax collectors… Have you forgotten? I can promise you that Christ would welcome a homosexual man into His church
Simply said, most of you have a very selective reading of God’s Word, yet claim to be on His side while the rest fall away… You couldn’t be more wrong
And why is homosexuality any worse than any other sin? It’s one in a long list of laws in the Pentateuch
You’re all guilty of as much sin as a homosexual Christian… Will he not be saved?
Report Post »eric6161
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:42amRational Minds will Prevail: Jesus would have had dinner with homosexuals if He chose to. He would have told the man to sin no more. If the man castigated Christ for his admonishment; Christ would have used that as a teaching moment for His disciples.
Report Post »Homosexuality is a choice and a lifestyle. If it had ever been an inherited mutant trait it would have died out millenia ago when the homosexual died childless.
Veritas vos liberabit
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:55amRational Mind – Of course Jesus would welcome gays! However, by your reasoning, no sin is worse than other, then lets let a child molester, a murderer and a thief be ministers.
Report Post »Rational Minds Will Prevail
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:14amComparing homosexuality to child molesters and murderers is an utterly illogical false equivalency… How could you compare a “choice of sexuality” (which it isn’t, there are examples of homosexuality in animals) with a violent crime?
There is no comparison… That is a straw-man argument, yet one I see presented in these comments again and again
All of our ministers are sinners… Welcome to the world
Report Post »thetwilightzone
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:19amTo Rational Minds Will Prevail:
Report Post »Jesus associated with prostitutes, thieves and probably murderers and homosexuals. They would all be accepted into heaven because Jesus said, “Go and sin no more”. It’s the desire and ability to stop the offending behaviour that earns you forgiveness.
GayDem4Beck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:45amJesus never taught for or against homosexuality. This raises the question, if homosexuality truly is a sin worthy of eternal damnation, as some believe it is, then why didn’t Jesus discuss it? He certainly preached at length concerning every other sin listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Timothy 1:9-10. Why would He leave this one out?
“God is not the author of confusion” (1 Corinthians 14:33) therefore I cannot see Him leaving out such a ‘critical’ sin from His discussions. A more plausible explanation is that God has never been concerned about homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. Each are equally part of God’s plan of creation. It is only mankind’s fears and prejudices that have concocted this monstrous imaginary sin, not God. Jesus talked at great length concerning many other issues such as love, mercy, grace, reaching the lost, the ministry of reconciliation, stewardship, and the healing of body, soul and mind. Yet at times the church seems more preoccupied with a subject He never taught about, than about the matters He did.
Report Post »GayDem4Beck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:45amScripture says that when we see Jesus, we have seen the Father (John 14:9; Hebrew 1:3). Since Jesus never talked about the issue we can deduce that neither Jesus nor the Father is concerned about homosexuality. Instead, He preached “the good news to the poor” and proclaimed “freedom for the captives and recovery of sight for the blind”, to “release the oppressed”, and proclaimed the “year of the Lord’s favor” (Luke 4:18-19) to all who would accept Him. Teaching us that we would do well to focus our thoughts upon Jesus and turn away from the prejudices of men.
Report Post »Veritas vos liberabit
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:57amYes, all ministers are sinners. The difference (and the problem) is gay ministers have now been given permission to commit the sin of homosexuality.
Report Post »thegreatcarnac
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:45pmIf everyone that had the correct beliefs denied the radicals their tithes…the whole stinking religion would collapese and have to start all over again in the biblical way.
Report Post »marjorie faye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 1:01pmTo Gay4Beck,
So glad you raised the false issue that Jesus is ok with homosexuality because he never discussed it. That is a very similar argument to the argument employed by children trying to rationalize disobeying what they know to be the spirit but not the letter of the rules set by their parents. They say things like, “Well, Dad didn’t specifically say not to do this.” They know in their hearts their Dad is not ok with what they are doing, but they use a thoroughly hypocritical legalistic device of rationalization to explain things away to themselves. Again, it is CHILDREN who think like this.
But here is the truth of how to interpret Christ’s teachings, per the Scriptures. Scripture teaches that Jesus is God, that Jesus created the world, that Jesus did everything the Bible says God did, because Jesus is God. Since Christ is God, it is Christ who instituted marriage in the first place, as related in the book of Genesis. At no time does Scripture state that God or Christ redefined marriage to be between anyone other than a male and a female, or that God or Christ redefined human sexuality to approve of homosexuality. It was once for all time defined, and never redefined. Christ is quoted in the New Testament as upholding the original definition of marriage. Throughout the Bible, all sex outside of marriage is a sin, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Jesus had no need to address the issue. It had already been addressed by him in the beginning and never a
Report Post »Sam the Casual Movie Guy
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:03amThe Catholic Church still hold the moral high ground (let’s not confuse individuals with the institution Herself). I hope this newest example from Martin Luther’s followers will open the eyes of the Protesters and convince them to return to the One, True Faith. I’m just surprised the collapse of the Protester cliques took so long…
Report Post »svtp
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:52amWe welcome all Moral Presbyterians that seek truth to come back to the Universal Truth where our Holy Father has been making great strides of reforming the reform and keeping the One True Faith – Authentic. We are all sinful, but Christ asks us to strive for perfection. He set the bar, not man. We love the sinner but hate the sin, but the sinner must bend, not the church. Man’s greatest sin is pride and it is obvious reading through this article and some of the comments.
Report Post »NC
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:42amThree points I would like to make:
1) These posts will change no ones mind about their stand on religion.
2) The PCA (Presbyterian Church of America) is following the footsteps of the Methodist Church who has an openly lesbian bishop and she frequents official events with her live-in partner.
3) The EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church) broke off from the PCA about 10 years ago because the PCA was not following biblical teaching as to homosexuality and actually allowed a gay protest to occur as part of their annual meeting. More on the EPC can be found at the link. http://www.epc.org/
I was a member of the EPC for 8 years but was asked to withdraw my membership because I am living w/ my girlfriend and we are not married. Am now attending a Methodist Church and feel much like Will Rogers when he said “I would not join any organization that would have me as a member”)
NC (non church member)
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:55amI can’t tell for sure, but it sounds like you respect the EPC for sticking to their principles even if you don‘t agree with them or aren’t living up to them.
Report Post »Veritas vos liberabit
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:30amThe PCA (Presbyterian Church of America) is following the footsteps of the Methodist Church who has an openly lesbian bishop and she frequents official events with her live-in partner.
NC – I believe you mean the Presbyterian U S A not PCA. PCA doesn’t even allow women to be elders much less a lesbian bishop.
Report Post »eric6161
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:34amN.C. You have confused the P.C.A. with U.S.A. PCA does not have any homosexual ministers where the USA church does. USA is now encouraging them to come out of the closet.
Report Post »GayDem4Beck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:40amThe Episcopal Church also has openly gay priest and bishops. Your all so wrapped up in your fear and prejudice of gays.
Report Post »greatgrand
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 10:10amNC, you couldn’t be more wrong. As has been pointed out, PCA stands for Presbyterian Church of America. It is totally NOT Presbyterian Church USA. If you are really interested in verifying PCA doctrine, you can find the Book of Church Order and the Westminster Confession of Faith online and NO where in these publications will you find approval of homosexuality. On the other hand, it denounces the practice as sin and anyone found to be practicing this behavior would be disciplined and expelled from fellowship/membership if not confronted and repentance made.
Report Post »DHD
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:40amIt was predestined to happen.
Report Post »TC
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:49amFunny! But also possible.
Report Post »yooyanks
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:07am2nd Timothy 4:3
Report Post »explains this succinctly
ByrdsofMisssouri
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:15amI charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Report Post »sacrificeforkids
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:02amThere is no compremise when it comes to God’s law…Clearly it tells us that Man willnot lay with Man, nor Mother, nor Sister..Yes we sin, however as a good Father will do, disapline he does not waver.. This move would also constitiute the ”False Teaching”’ God speaks about… We need to Pray for this Church..In my opinion, if your Church home does not strickly preach the Bible,, it would be in your best interest to find one that does..
Report Post »ByrdsofMisssouri
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:57amAMOS37: God will never accept this deviant behavior! Very good post!
Report Post »Joseph28
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:52amThe Bible says what it says. It says it’s an abomination. If you can‘t promote what the bible says than you really aren’t promoting Christian values now are you…
Report Post »GayDem4Beck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:02amAnswers To Sodom and Gomorrah – Is God condemning the people because they were homosexual or because they were cruel, selfish and showed no mercy or compassion to others? Ezekiel 16:49-50 answers many of these questions when he states: “Behold, this was the inequity of your sister Sodom: pride, overabundance of food (in Hebrew this phrase literally means eating to the point of retching…), prosperous ease, and idleness were hers and her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abominable offenses before ME.”
In other words they were evil and self-centered people who totally ignored God and thought nothing of attacking, raping and killing people. Here is where the interpretations begin to differ. One side believes the sin of the Sodomites was the method of rape they intended to inflict upon the angels (i.e. the act of sodomy), while the other side believes the fact that the Sodomites wanted to attack and harm the strangers at all demonstrated the evil nature of these people and their complete abandonment of the law of Love. In other words it wasn’t the method of rape that was important – but the fact that the Sodomites wanted to rape and kill them at all that is truly the issue!
Report Post »vennoye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 11:37amGayDem4Beck—-Each verse in the Bible has 4 levels of interpretation–the P’shat level-plain sense of the text. The Drash level which is the principled level and what the Hebrews refer to as midrash. The Remez which is the esoteric, hidden, or hint level (This deals with hidden patterns, messages and themes. The Sod, which is the mysterious level (the jots and tittles Jesus referred to are part of that level). So both sides of the S&G argument are probably right.
There is a hidden meaning by our being told (Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.) because Lot said (Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.) and the men did not want the daughters, so MORE than sexual immorality is being expressed here.
Just read your Bible for yourself, don’t let anyone just tell you what it says, too important for you to be wrong!! Because Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {strange: Gr. other}
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:52amIndeed, the moral compass has swung mightily in the opposite direction from when Peter Marshall was a great Presbyterian minister. I believe we can now say goodbye to that church as well.
Good the CHRISTIAN faith does not rely on either buildings or denominations to thrive.
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:56amI haven‘t attended a church in over a decade and my faith in God couldn’t be stronger. I try to do the right thing when crisis calls and try to live my life as a good person.
Report Post »eric6161
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:30amWhere two or more gather in my name… I will be there also. It’s amazing how some people are happy praying by themselves. I enjoy it more when Christ is present.
We all “try” and do good but we are born in sin and the only way out is by the blood of Jesus Christ. Everything we do that is “good” falls short.
Who is John Galt?
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:54amEric I find it hard to believe that Christ would shun or turn away a good person simply because tey had not heard and recieved his message. Fact is those people who live there lives as Christ would have them to without ever hearing his word are the best of man. Whose guiding principles are based in a belief system self spawned from within. With no need for external stimulus or endoctrinations to do what‘s right a self governed soul who found God’s path without ever knowing him. I would think that Christ would welcome them faster than someone who geard his word but continued to do thing that are contrary to his doctrine.
Report Post »marjorie faye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:23pmSmith,
Report Post »The New Testament says “And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and(C) all the more as you see the day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10)
Thun
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 1:24pm@ SMITHCLAR3NC3
That’s a great start but why not go all in? This quote from Bill Wiese always made sense to me.
“If you were to go to the most expensive home in the country, knock on their door, and say to them, “Hi, I’m moving in with you.” What do you think they would say? No. You would not expect them to allow you to just move in. You don’t know them and have no relationship with them. Yet, people go throughout their entire lives and want nothing to do with God, reject that Jesus is the Son of God, don’t go to church, don’t want to read the Bible or learn about Him, and yet…. When they die – they expect to move into His house. Who is the unreasonable one? You never made God your Father even though He tries throughout your lifetime to reach out to you. When you receive His Son, He then becomes your Father, and you may now move into His house. Until you receive Jesus, God is your Creator, but not your Father (Gal. 3:26; John 1:12, 8:44; Rom. 9:7-8; John 17:9; Eph. 1:5).”
Hell is for an eternity!
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 1:57pmthuns you like many other misinterpete what I‘m posting I’m not talking about good people who reject Christ and yet live a good life. I’m talking about people through-out history who were good people and never learned of Christ. Never even heard the name Jesus but instead were good because they chose to be. I don’t think for a second that Christ would turn away those good people simply because they lived in areas cut off from the civilized world. Think of the natives that resided in America prior to our arrival there were no better keepers of his earth than those who only took what they needed and used as much of every kill as possible. Villages where everyone raised the children and everyone worked to support the old people and those that didn’t were exiled from the tribe.
Report Post »Thun
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 3:53pm@SMITHCLAR3NC3
My apologies, I made that post in response to your reply at 7:56 am. As a Catholic, I reject the doctrine that only Catholics can be saved. God will save who He will. That someone cannot reach the fullness of truth, through their honest efforts, will not be held against him and I believe that includes those who you refer to. Those who knowingly reject the truth will perish in their sin and be damned. God will judge all by their works.
Pope Pius IX, “those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord.” We believe that not one soul is saved by any other name than Jesus, even those saved who never heard His name.
Report Post »Atilla
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:48amI am beginning to believe that political correctness is the anti christ. We have met the enemy and he is us. If you think about you must conclude that the Islamofacist do have a point in that we are in fact, a decadent and immoral social structure. Trying to normalize abnormal behavior is the ultimate rejection of both biology and moral direction in one action.
Report Post »TC
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:48amAtilla, I have wondered that myself for a while. Its close if its not the real thing.
Report Post »ZAP
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:48amMan can not change Gods laws
Report Post »GayDem4Beck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:45amMatthew 22:37-40 (NIV) “Love the Lord God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
John 3:16 when he wrote that “whosoever” (King James translation) believes in Jesus Christ will not perish. “Whosoever” does not exclude anyone, instead it includes everyone! Simply put, it does not matter if you gay or straight, black or white, male or female. What matters is whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not and have accepted Him as your Lord and Savior.
Report Post »Thunderstorm 316
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 10:01am@ zap, no man cannot change God‘s laws’ but that has not stoped man from trying before. I cant help but think of when Jesus said “Judas you betray me with a kiss?”, now it’s to the presbyterian clergy, you betray me with a vote?
Report Post »marjorie faye
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:15pmTo GayDem4Beck,
Report Post »You can‘t just quote a couple of passages and say that’s the end of it. It’s not. Jesus also stated, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” It’s not just about feelings. Take the New Testament as a whole or else you take things out of context.
Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 12:28pmMan changes gods’ laws all the time.
Religious laws can’t change the laws of nature.
Report Post »LetUsReason
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 3:15pm@ Lesbian
That’s not correct. Man does not have the power or authority to change God’s laws, even if they wanted to. They can only change their obedience to the laws, for it is the laws that govern all things in heaven and earth. It is our duty to learn God’s laws and abide by them.
Report Post »Lesbian Packing Hollow Points
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 3:35pmWas Jesus a man, as created being? Was Jesus god, eternal? Was Jesus a combination of a god in a man?
These were critical questions which threatened to destroy the early church. Some sects clung to one interpretation (god’s laws). Other sects clung to other, different interpretations (god’s laws). it took the First Council of Nicea to dictate which sects had to change their versions of god’s laws and who did not.
“I remember when eating meat on a Friday was a Hell-worthy trespass.” — Bartleby, “Dogma”
At one time, if you celebrated Christmas, you could be excommunicated from the church.
“Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.” — Lev 19:19
Ever eaten beef from a hybrid breed? Ever worn cotton/wool socks? How many good, solid Christians would agree that those are still god’s laws? Which is to say nothing of growing corn and soybeans side by side in a single field as is common across the bread basket.
Gods’ laws change all the time. Sometimes, it‘s from a new sect taking over from the older and instituting new gods’ laws to supercede the old. Sometimes, it‘s the overthrow of an established religion by a completely new religion and so the old gods’ laws are no longer in effect and the new gods’ laws are. Sometimes, there’s just a mutual agreement that a given prohibition is no longer
Report Post »Bob_R_OathKeeper
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:41amThis is the opposite of good. Good luck with that, you’ll need it.
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:15amSo the church can change a Holy Doctrine written thousands of years ago with a simple vote…hmmm
Report Post »How long before they switch roles and make Jesus the devil and satan the savior…..I mean all they need is a vote …right?
LetUsReason
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 3:12pm@ Smith
Yeah, but this isn’t a new thing. What do you think the early Roman church was doing at the Council of Nicea and elsewhere? So many plain and precious truths altered by the simple raise of a hand.
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:35amwhat can one say? the moral slide continues.
Report Post »Creestof
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:45amAs long as they are open about it and disclose it to all who walk in the doors…that way they can keep their sons away from them.
Oh, and they’ll have to make those confessionals “2 seaters” now.
Report Post »Amos37
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:46amWhat is wrong with these people? Oh yeah, God said this would happen
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall
Report Post »Ironmaan
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:47amSo the Presbyterian church is now ok with fornication and it on the way to supporting the abomination that is homosexuality. I’d say if your serious about your faith and your a Presbyterian you might want to find a new denomination that holds closer to the bibles teachings. if you just go to church for the sake of appearances, don’t worry about it.
Report Post »http://guerillatics.com
MOLLYPITCHER
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:48am@ old white guy
Report Post »I think thats all you can say.
misteryuck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:49amAs someone once said “Slouching toward Gamorrah”….
Report Post »Forgive the mis-spelling.
Amos37
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:50amGod told us this would happen, I’d make sure to stay away from this “church”. Seems like impressing or appeasing man has overtaken following the will of God.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Report Post »Jarski
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:53amThe moral Presbyterian’s will break from the immoral ones. I’d like to see the congregation count of any given gay lead Presbyterian (or any other religion) church. I‘m betting they couldn’t survive financially.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 6:55amTo quote QUEEN, “Another one bites the dust”.
Report Post »faithwalker
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:03amGod’s Word Is Never Wrong. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
Report Post »redneck
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:06amThere’re coming OUT so you better get this party started
Report Post »grandmaof5
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:08amPresbyterians don’t have confession, CREESOF. I wonder which other faiths will follow now that the Presbyterians have opened the door. May have to make a change.
Report Post »HappyStretchedThin
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:08amI don‘t get how they think God’s will can be determined by a vote. It‘s doctrine or it’s not, people. I bet the PCA ranks swell.
Report Post »Meyvn
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:16amThings such as this is why I study scripture independently and stay away from organized denominations.
Report Post »Veritas vos liberabit
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:22amMy father-in-law, rest his soul, was a Presbyterian USA minister. He’s rolling over in his grave!!!
Report Post »After this, I don’t think they will be able to claim to be the largest Presbyterian denomination in the country anymore! I’m sure many will split!
Gates
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:24amThis among other liberal changes is why the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America was created. It is a very strong Christian denomination.
http://www.pcanet.org/
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:53amOrginized Religion is dead and or dying as they embrace things that are sinful in order to be accepted by more people.
Report Post »sbleve
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 7:54amThe evolution of belief and faith. A visit to this church some decades ago left a neither sour nor sweet impression. Some intangible thing without a meaningful definition, at the time. A later visit to the church found by John Wesley with a similar felling of ?.
Today I recognize from recent past lessons, the beginning art of Collective Salvation was present in both visits.
Report Post »Cherbear
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:29amYou said it; even more rapidly than I ever thought.
Report Post »GODSAMERICA
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:35amSome of these congregations that decided to remain in that denomination, even if they voted against it are aligning themselves with evil and therefore they will still be held accountable.
Report Post »NYSTREETKID
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 8:38amThe church is as jesus told those in the temple. “you have become dead mans bone.”.The church is all but dead in europe. The slide here is unreal. I was in all of the born again movement of the late 1980‘s and90’s. I however.I started to notice that after clinton and the rest of the PC started full bore.The churches started to dry up. If you look around at most RC churches or Church of the old bible Belt. You well find old people.The average age of a church member is 48 yrs+. The youth in the west have been told by there schools and their 1960′s generation parents that there no right or wrong.That how you feel about yourself is all that matters.That it is wrong to judge others life styles.,That the old ways where hateful.there is no evil,just misunderstood people ,who were not as luck as you.As The church falls. something will fill the void of the spirt. The people in the middle east plan on it.The call to pray is heard all over europe more and more each day.The plan fact is we have failed our Christ,our faith,in the end the our souls of our children.
Report Post »roofster
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:10amagree
Report Post »Cemoto78
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:25amKinda makes me ashamed to be a Presbyterian.
Report Post »joseph Fawcett
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 9:43amI don’t know what to say, except to thank God that in His wisdom he has shortened the days in the last days of this age to prevent all the believers from being decieved. It is amazing to me to see the moral values that were in place when I was a kid to have almost completely been done away with. The next step for this church is to allow and condone gay marriage. How could God not be angry with this nation? How can we be so blind as a nation to what we are doing? Are we such a Godless nation now that we would invite God’s wrath upon us. This is not idle words, I have been praying for this nation and I am reminded over and over again how the Jews kept losing sight of God and how they were brought into bondage and sometimes given into slavery. If God did not spare His chosen people why would he spare us. We slap God in the face each and everyday many, many times a day with each and every death of an unborn child. We blame our Courts, we do not take personal responsiblity. Oh folks, we really have to get serious about our faith, our moral condition, our seeking repentance, or else we will be given over to the progressives, the Muslims, and the ungodly. We will be worse than captives and slaves. We really need more than a mighty move of the Holy Spirit, we need a mighty flood of the Holy Spirit. It appears that we don’t respond to natural disasters. Look at New Orleans they have contiued to be as ungodly as they were before.
http://www.josephfawcettart.com western artist
Report Post »jackrorabbit
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 10:08amOne more “church” down the tubes. We are in the final generation, before Revelation.
Report Post »kevinkruis
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 10:52amFor those of you who are in the Presbyterian Church USA, you might want to check out the Evangelical Presbyterian Church at http://www.EPC.org who still stand with the original doctrines of Christ.
Report Post »Kansas Mom
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 1:19pmPlease, please make note that this is only the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Not all Presbyterian churches are ultra-liberal, anti-bible social groups.
Report Post »OkieMandy
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 2:46pmI applaud the Presbyterian church. I can understand how you may not agree with homosexuality. I do not hate or condemn your feelings of hatred. But remember gay people are human beings as well. We have emotions and the only one who shall judge our soul and actions on earth is God. Why do you condemn us for our loving others. What many people fail to realize is that it is not your responsibility to judge. I am a gay woman who is ultra conservative and I have a voice too. How can you judge me for my life. I do not flaunt my being lesbian. I share your values for family and country. I do not define myself as lesbian or gay. First I define myself as a daughter, sister, co-worker, student, and friend. I am not ashamed of who I am but we need to come together to save this country you cannot continue to do that when you are condemning fellow Americans who are homosexual. I am not a minority. There are many homosexuals who dislike how the country is being run and want to speak out. How can we speak out when we are constantly being silenced. You should stand united with all Americans regardless of race, sex, gender, and sexuality.
Report Post »LetUsReason
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 3:04pmSo the Presbyterian church adjusts its value system to align with the world’s? True disciples, right there….good work, boys.
Report Post »Veritas vos liberabit
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 3:19pmOkieMandy, Most Christians would welcome gays into their church, work, school, etc. I am not, and would never condemn someone only for being gay. I, and probably most here, am only addressing the gay minister issue. The difference here is (as I said in another post), the church is being hypocritical by saying on one hand follow the bible, but the other hand is giving gays permission to openly sin. Where does this slippery slope stop? Can I be a minister if I openly and repeatedly commit adultery? A lot of people say this is OK because Jesus didn’t address homosexuality. May be he didn’t address it because it was unheard of among Jews. He didn’t deal with a lot of things directly. Because Jesus didn’t directly say it by name, although Paul did, does not mean we ignore all the other references to it in the Bible. Glad you are here on The Blaze!
Report Post »jzs
Posted on May 11, 2011 at 4:22pmGood post Okie.
Report Post »Secret Squirrel
Posted on May 12, 2011 at 6:01am.
Report Post »I wonder what next year will bring?
Human sacrifice?