Faith

Growing Unbelief? 1 in 5 Americans Are Now Atheists, Agnostics or ‘Nones’

Atheists, Agnostics & Nones a Growing Religious Force in AmericaTheBlaze has provided extensive documentation to show that atheism is anything but a dying breed. In fact, non-belief is alive and well in America.

While the majority of the population still embraces the concept of a “God,” according to a new report, the proportion of Americans abandoning the notion that a higher power exists is expanding. Now, nearly one in five (19 percent) Americans report that they are a part of the “nones” — the growing group of religiously unaffiliated individuals.

Who are these “nones,” you ask? According to the USA Today, they are people who call themselves atheists, agnostics or those who simply embrace “nothing in particular.” According to Barry Kosmin, co-author of three American Religious Identification Surveys, the “nones” may be growing for a variety of reasons.

“Young people are resistant to the authority of institutional religion, older people are turned off by the politicization of religion, and people are simply less into theology than ever before,” he explains.

Atheists, Agnostics & Nones a Growing Religious Force in America

While some may deny that one or more of these reasons are at the center of the growing trend of non-belief, others will certainly agree that this is an issue worthy of further examination. Looking at the numbers, regardless of where one stands, is stunning. USA Today goes on to explain how this proportion has grown over the years:

Kosmin’s surveys were the first to brand the Nones in 1990 when they were 6% of U.S. adults. By 2008 survey, Nones were up to 15%. By 2010, another survey, the bi-annual General Social Survey, bumped the number to 18%.

Meanwhile, the Roman Catholic Church, the nation’s largest religious denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, Methodists and Lutherans, all show membership flat or inching downward, according to the 2012 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches.

The 19% count is based on aggregated surveys of 19,377 people conducted by the Pew Research Center throughout 2011.

Read more about the slow-moving growth of the “nones” cohort here.

(H/T: USA Today)

Comments (286)

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  • TomSawyer
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:35am

    1 in 5 Americans are also liberal.

    Report Post »  
    • Detroit paperboy
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:14am

      God is being replaced by the STATE………it’s called communism.

      Report Post »  
    • tcseacliff
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:21am

      I don’t think Athiest exist! there fore I ignore them!

      Report Post »  
    • AndYetItMoves
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 2:08pm

      Atheism has precisely nothing to do with politics. It has a lot to do with intelligence, as the neanderthals that populate these threads can well attest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

      Report Post »  
    • Pontiac
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 3:44pm

      Must be the other 1/5th. Both Liberalism and Religion are derived from emotion based speculative rubbish.

      Report Post » Pontiac  
    • Chrono_Sleuth
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:12pm

      @Andy

      The only study ever done to somehow prove the superiority of atheists is a poor example of scientific studies. It fails compare apples to apples. People in each category on the same economic standing, with similar habits such as reading and musical tastes. Nor does it consider geographic location. It’s a random amalgamation of various people from various walks of life, where the only concern is their belief system.

      I see no control, only variables. Even then a study like this requires virtually the whole study to be controls and very select random variables. As without a proper direct comparison, there is no accurate measure of actual intelligence and brain function between beliefs. Even then, what belief systems? There are various religions who believe either in a God, or a single creator with many gods.

      So please, when you use source material, try not to ruin the credibility you seem to assume you deserve by choosing a poor representation of your unfounded dogma.

      Report Post » Chrono_Sleuth  
    • jander23
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:50pm

      I’m an atheist, yet not a liberal. I simply believe that the best way to long-term prosperity and freedom is small government and capitalism that hasn’t been tainted with the ideas of Keynes. I not anti-religious in anyway as well. I do however cringe when religion is brought into a debate. It is often used by the corrupt to take away the rights and liberties of the people.

      Report Post »  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:17pm

      Roughly 15% of the U.S. population identify as “non-religious”, not as atheist. Roughly half that number still believe in some sort of higher power, and of that number, only about 4-6% self-identify as atheist. But, hey, USA Today has never been a bastion of objective reporting.

      Gallup Poll. 92% of Americans believe in God.
      http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/americans-continue-believe-god.aspx

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
    • Cesium
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:45am

      People who assume all atheists are liberals are total morons. end of story

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 1:36am

      @TCSEACLIFF

      I never understood this horribly flawed comment.

      I don’t have a problem with your God. I don‘t think your God exists therefore I can’t have a problem with him.

      What I do have a concern of is the people who says he does exists, and the people who threaten others with a perceived eternal damnation. Those people who try to create and pass legislation to force others to live by what they believe God wants.

      Meaning.

      I don’t have a problem with your God.
      I have a problem with you.

      Report Post »  
    • Quiata
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:36am

      @MODERN et al. : “What I do have a concern of … the people who threaten others with a perceived eternal damnation.”

      And the problem with atheists is that they threaten others will hell ON earth: Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. (just for starters….)
      Since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, they must see that their idea of “perfection” — whatever the heck THAT is, or worse, WILL be — come to fruition in the here & now.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:56am

      @ CESIUM…..it doesn’t make them morons necessarily just wrong in their assumption that all atheists are liberal. Thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SecularConservative
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:06pm

      Most non-religious people I’ve known have leaned more Libertarian than anything…

      Report Post »  
    • TRUTHandFREEDOM
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:16pm

      Get your best team of scientists.

      Grab some nothing out of the air. Take that nothing and build;
      minerals
      atoms
      dirt
      gasses
      a star
      dinosaurs
      a man
      a woman
      a dog
      a cat
      a fish
      an ocean
      an eagle
      and a porcupine

      Let me know when they have that ready

      In the mean time, I’ll stick with Faith in our Creator

      Report Post »  
    • TRUTHandFREEDOM
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:20pm

      By the way, the bigger issue is not that there are God “Deniers”, it’s that there are Bible Haters, Christian Haters, God separatists and Anti semites.

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:43pm

      @QUIATA

      They were evil people with evil intentions.

      What about the religious people who have murdered and oppressed millions of people?

      What is the difference between the two?

      Both are motivated by evil regardless of their view point on the universe

      Only thing is

      I can’t be motivated to do anything by my atheism. Atheism is just a rejection of your claim that there is a God

      I can’t kill someone because my Atheism demands it
      I can’t kill someone with the hopes of a reward after I die
      I don’t base my worldview off of dogmatic principles
      I‘m free to accept or reject ideas because I don’t think any ideas are divinely inspired or have a supernatural backing
      I can’t threaten people with eternal damnation for disagreeing with me.

      Report Post »  
    • TRUTHandFREEDOM
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:59pm

      The difference is the failure to adhere to the teachings of Christianity, not the failure of teachings of CHristianity.

      Report Post »  
    • oldduffer
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 12:15am

      Wasn’t it a couple of years ago that they said around 80% believed in God. Looks to me like someone is trying to make something sound different.

      Report Post »  
    • ConservativeCanucklehead
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 3:42am

      TRUTHANDFREEDOM
      “Get your best team of scientists …”

      No wonder Atheists tend to believe Christians are stupid.

      Report Post »  
    • Pontiac
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 1:38pm

      “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
      –Steven Weinberg

      Report Post » Pontiac  
    • MensaMan
      Posted on August 28, 2012 at 1:30am

      The self-styled ‘atheists’, ‘agnostics’, and ‘nones’ have the same problems as the self-styled ‘liberals’ and ‘progressives’ . . . for most it is simply insufficient education . . . for some that is accompanied by a self-blinding arrogance.

      An in-depth and comprehensive education — in science, history, philosophy and theology cannot fail to convince the honest seeker of the existence of a living God who loves us as His children, of the immortality of the soul and of our fully conscious and aware lives that will continue through all time and throughout eternity.

      Report Post »  
  • thegreatcarnac
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:35am

    I think one-in-five is too high a figure and not accurate. Because of the atheistic stance of most schools of ‘higher education’ and other input, I am sure the number of people who do not believe has grown. That is not a good thing at all. Only a fool says there is no God.

    Report Post »  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:42am

      do you “pity the fool”?

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • Gonzo
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:00am

      I just clicked the story to see how many times Philly commented. Do you have an alarm that goes off every time a religion story pops up?

      Report Post » Gonzo  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:13am

      do you?

      religion and atheism stories are the only reason i come here. it‘s not like i’m here for actual news.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • rickc34
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:48am

      Philly- yes I do pity those that reject the free gift that God has to offer . Those that reject will end up first in hell , then the lake of fire by their own choice. The Bible said that this time would come but I did not think it would happen during my life time, but here it is . Alliances made between Russia, Syria, Iran, against Israel, and that Israel would become a nation again and come back to the land God gave them after over 1900 years this has never happened before. Just remember that like the thief on the cross as long as there is breath in your body God is willing to forgive and make a place for you in Heaven.

      Report Post »  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:04am

      i love how your message of love comes with the not so thinly veiled threat of eternal damnation. some “gift”. i‘d accept your kind message were it not for the bullying that it’s tied to. it’s not a gift if there are dire consequences for not accepting it. that’s a mandate! or an ultimatum. sorry, that’s not the type of being i wish to worship. good luck to you though, and here’s to hoping the Rapture comes for you quickly.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:16am

      Good post, PhillyAtheist.

      Threats of violence [if you don't believe me and do what I say] worked for centuries. . . . . until people opened their eyes and began to understand reality. Regardless, . . . if a position is GOOD, . . . it wouldn’t NEED “threats of violence”, . . . would it?

      While I’m at it, . . . . IF the christian god story were true, as believed by christianity, . . . . then the statement “they do to hell/lake of fire of their own choosing” is absurd. A person cannot make a logically sound choice unless ALL information is verifyable and determinable, especially when this deity hides in the shadows, being silent. Punish people for being honest about the topic??? That is spiteful, hate filled, and petty.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • LIB3RTY4991
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:25am

      Philly, what you fail to understand about Christianity is that we are all condemned to hell. Only through the gift of Christ’s salvation can we be saved. There is no punishment for not accepting the gift, you and everyone else who do not accept it will go where you were going to go already. Let me put it this way. We are all beggars on the street, who are going to die of starvation if we don’t find food soon. Myself and a few others know where the food is, and we are trying to tell everyone else where it is. If you fail to come with us and get that food you will die, but instead you are saying that we are threatening you with starvation if you don’t come with us. No, we are telling you that we know where relief is from the starvation you are facing.

      Report Post » LIB3RTY4991  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:32am

      “what you fail to understand about Christianity is that we are all condemned to hell.”

      well what a loving deity you have there. your entire post is complete BS. like literally made up out of thin air. most prominent Theologians reject the idea of Hell (and many if not most Heaven). it’s a tool to keep you afraid and in line.

      your Religion tells you that all people are inherently evil. i choose to believe that we are not. some, possibly you, happen to be deplorable individuals. the majority are not though. you worship an all powerful deity who simply chooses not to give 2 poops about humans and their affairs. i‘d rather put my faith in humanity’s ability for empathy, civility, and righteousness. after all, we all interact and support each other, which is a lot more than you can say about your God.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 1:40pm

      Hell’s never held (heh, pun) much of a threat to me. I happen to believe that, according to the Bible with an actual translation and context, you’ll find that “Hell” as a concept does not exist. It’s not in the Old Testament, and in the NT, short of Revelation, it refers only to the pain of death and the lack of God’s love in your life. The Bible says that the penalty for turning your back on God is not an eternity of torture, but losing out on an eternity of love with God.

      Said another way, the Bible says that if you don’t follow and believe in Christ, death is the end. If you do, you live forever. If Hell did exist, that would also be eternal life; just a life of suffering (which is a VERY non-Christ-like idea). So by that notion atheists are quite right that when they die, that’s the end.

      Of course, if you‘re reading the KJV you’ll read about Hell all over the place, because the translation is horrible.

      Report Post »  
    • FoxholeAtheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 2:51pm

      Locked, I don’t have god in my life and I feel pretty darn good. In fact, I feel better than when I went to church and called myself a believer. By your reckoning, shouldn’t my pain have started the minute I said to myself that there is no god? In fact, when I professed both with my heart and my lips that there is no god and started living my life without it, the exact opposite thing you describe happened. I felt better than I had ever felt before and have since been happy ever after, except of course, when the religious try to dictate my personal life or decide that my tax dollars should go to their religious causes. Then I get a little irritated.

      Thinking for yourself can be quite liberating. You should try it sometime.

      Report Post » FoxholeAtheist  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 3:31pm

      @ FOX…no doubt you might feel very good currently as the seduction of rebellion lies in doing what you want to do to please yourself. But, as many things taken to extremes, when loving yourself is unbridaled uncontrolled it ultimately leads to self-destruction. Take for instance drugs, initally they may make you feel great, but eventually at some point you become a slave to that which you once found liberating and wonderful. In the end you become a prisoner and oppressed by your free choice, but this did not happen immediately, but rather over time. And I know that as a good parent you would place boundaries on your children to stop them from making harmful decisions, even if it is what they wanted to do. You wouldn’t tell them, “do whatever your little heart desires”, because you would know that they would serve only their fleshly desires and that many of them would ultimately cause themselves harm by their choices in the long run. You wouldn’t do it because you were a dictator, but because you loved them and knew they were making wrong and harmful decisions. Thank you ahead…

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SquidVetOhio
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:22pm

      @LOCKED

      That’s because you have a second grade understanding of theology. You’ve apparently never read Luke Chp. 16 either. Jesus preached more on hell than He did heaven. Don’t worry, if you continue in your blasphemy, you’ll be an expert on it.

      Report Post » SquidVetOhio  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:17pm

      @ DEVON…..I am saddened that you do not have more of an appetite to defend the “truth” you claim to hold to, especially since you claim to have written 2 books. I have laid out a very clear argument for my position and have illuminated many of the logical flaws in your position. I have been called arrogant and told that following the laws of logic constitute “my opinion”, which so far is all you have given. You have not yet, in all our replies, answered my criticisms of your logic or offerend any objective sound argument for why my position is illogical. You have also not even attempted to answer a very simple and sincere question regarding the 3 areas of investigation you have studied concerning the bible that are considered scholarly and universally accepted as the standard for evaluating works of antiquity. I have not been persuaded by your posts in any way other than to be strengthened in my own position even further. I still await your responses and engagement in a sincere debate of your position contrasted with mine for all to see and decide for themselves. If we truly claim to hold to the truth then we should NEVER hesitate to defend or debate it, as logic will always win out. At this time I have sincere reservations that it is the truth you seek given the substance of your replies. I hold the same request out to all the atheists who have commented on this thread with all sincerity. I do appreciate everyones time and consideration. Thank you ahead.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:40pm

      @ liberty very well put!

      Report Post » DLV  
    • Cesium
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:53am

      Religion is a neurosis.When we teach our children from the beginning there are no certain answers (yet) to explain the origin of the universe or life, and that you can’t assume an intelligent magical wizard made us, and we will all likely die without knowing all the answers, and we must view life as the most precious thing we have because it is so rare, (in our neighborhood of the universe), than we finally produce a population of real critical thinkers. you can still be conservative and be an atheist. It is certainly not a political movment.. it is a movement of truth… even if the truth means “i don’t know”

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:01am

      @Squid

      “That’s because you have a second grade understanding of theology. You’ve apparently never read Luke Chp. 16 either. Jesus preached more on hell than He did heaven. Don’t worry, if you continue in your blasphemy, you’ll be an expert on it.”

      Nice try. The word used is Hades, as the Gospel of Luke was recorded in Greek. However, Christians obviously don’t believe in Hades, so why would they use the term? Because Hades also had the meaning of “The grave.” The consequence of the rich man’s actions are that he will stay dead and not reach heaven (there’s no fire in either idea of Hades, the Homer-esque version nor “the grave” common usage of the time).

      Try doing some research, Squid . As per the Bible’s words (for example, Matthew 7:13, John 3:16, Acts 4:12, Romans 6:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, James 1:15), the penalty for failing to follow Christ’s teachings is death, not an eternal life of suffering. That concept was created well after the teachings of Christ.

      Report Post »  
    • Xyskalla
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:06am

      Atheists have always overstated their numbers, but this time I think there’s some truth in it. Have you seen what they’re teaching in the schools these days? I know an awful lot of people who are coming out of our government-school system who are not only atheists, but automatically assume that anyone who has any type of religious belief is a complete idiot who should be forcibly reeducated for their own good.

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:07am

      @Foxholeatheist

      “I don’t have god in my life and I feel pretty darn good. In fact, I feel better than when I went to church and called myself a believer. By your reckoning, shouldn’t my pain have started the minute I said to myself that there is no god?”

      Nope, not at all. Nice strawman, though! You can’t force yourself to believe; if you‘re lying to yourself of course that’ll bring cognitive dissonance and make you miserable. A better method would have been to ask yourself “Hey, if someone gave up their life for me, why does that idea make me miserable?” An even better method would be asking if your church was actually preaching the truth.

      “I felt better than I had ever felt before and have since been happy ever after, except of course, when the religious try to dictate my personal life or decide that my tax dollars should go to their religious causes. Then I get a little irritated.”

      As do I. I fully endorse a separation of church and state as per the SCotUS’s ruling on the Establishment Clause. Doesn‘t matter if it’s the same religion I follow; no religion should be put above others by the authorities.

      “Thinking for yourself can be quite liberating. You should try it sometime.”

      And you might rethink your abrasiveness. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar*

      *(Note: not actually true, but it’s a good expression anyway)

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:10am

      @ CESIUM…Religion is no more a neurosis than the belief in ex nihilo universe and multiverses my friend. That was a statement from the militant atheist camp and I sure hope you would not ascribe to their thoughts that would take from individuals the right to follow their faith and practice it within the law. That would be inconistent with your statemnt that you are for small government that protects our liberties. You sure would not like it if I thought you had a disease of the mind and therefore needed to treat you by personally demeaning you and forcing you to observe religous practices in various ways to get you to accept the truth as I see it, would you? Secondly, I do not assume a magical wizard did anything (not sure where that belief comes from?), but rather I base my concept of a Designer on evidence that you and I have engaged in before. It is consistent with the laws of logic as we have hammered out. It is not illogical fantasy but evidence supported belief. In fact, the concept of a Designer is more consistent with the scientifc concepts we possess now than ex nihilo universe or multiverse, which by the way has taken a huge blow from one of Hawkins own colleagues (I can’t recall his name right now) and even Hawkings himself stated that if multiverse was not reality then a Designer makes the most sense scientifically. That was why he was such a big sponser of the multiverse theory. Thank you ahead…..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 3:19pm

      Locked- “death” aka “the second death” means seperation from God, his wrath, hell. Again, there is plenty on this subject and means more than just hades. Like the passages you point out, Matthew 7:13 says the wide way leads to destruction, aka hell. It’s in there, you really have to be blind to not see it.
      There are more passages as well Matthew 5:22 Matt 10:28- 5:22 describes fire or hell or hell of fire. I don’t know where you are getting Hades from hell of fire. It’s research! RESEARCH! RESEARCH! Please know what you are talking about.

      In case you didn’t get it in Revelation it even says the second death is the lake of fire! Again, please do your research before typing.

      Report Post » DLV  
  • TN
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:34am

    That number is low….

    Report Post » TN  
    • Silversmith
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:13am

      I disagree. In fact, the group being counted is disingenuous. It combines atheists (those who know there is no God) with agnostics ( those who don’t know either way) and nones (those who embrace nothing in particular – or everything in general) as one group. This is an attempt at a sensational number. I put forward the idea that we are all agnostics, as no one “knows” – that’s why they call it faith.

      This is a polling trick to sensationalize and call attention to atheism by combining unrelated groups to grow the number.

      Silversmith

      Report Post » Silversmith  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:32pm

      The best-selling book of all time is the Bible. Throughout the world, the Bible has sold over 6 billion copies, enough to give every person in the world one copy.

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
    • ConservativeCanucklehead
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 6:39pm

      I hope you’re right TN. I really hope so.

      Report Post »  
    • ConservativeCanucklehead
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 6:44pm

      BINGE
      And the best-selling video game of all time is Call Of Duty: Black Ops.

      Report Post »  
  • katenga
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:33am

    Everyone dies… no matter if they believe in Jesus, Buddah, a spaghetti monster, or nothing. So go ahead and tell non-believers that they’re going to hell. I think they have better things to worry about.

    Report Post » katenga  
    • RRFlyer
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:47am

      Eternity is nothing to worry about???

      Report Post »  
    • Pontiac
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 3:50pm

      @RRFlyer
      An eternity with Christians would be hell.

      Report Post » Pontiac  
  • HemiOwner
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:31am

    If this trend continues, it will truly mark the end of the country.

    Report Post » HemiOwner  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:40pm

      @sleazy, the problem I have isn’t with implicating God as being immoral, it’s that He commanded men to violate the laws that He made for them. While God is free to kill whomever, whenever, men kill in the name of God all the time, and the God of the Bible set a precedent for it. That’s my issue. According to the Bible, it is okay to kill infants and children when God tells you to. I remember a story about a mother who drowned her children because God told her to. Where’s the statue in her honor for being so faithful?

      Your question for me. Murder-why I don’t kill my neighbor? Because my neighbor’s friends and family wouldn’t like it and I would be inviting violence on myself and my own family. Theft – I don’t want my stuff stolen. I get together with other like minded individuals and make laws to protect my stuff, those laws also prevent me from stealing other people’s stuff.
      Moral laws, like the war on drugs, adultery, prohibition, etc have dismal records. Adultery laws only work when a woman is a man’s property. The most effective laws in the world are property laws. Murder is not a moral law, it’s about property. My life is my property. My house is my property. I put up boundaries around my property, whether tangible or intangible. In order to protect my life and my children’s lives, I put up boundaries, such as not killing children. If I’m okay with killing other people’s children, those other people will feel free to kill mine.
      I have to

      Report Post »  
    • Granny58
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:21pm

      @Alinmatt – The god of the OT IS very confusing, how do we reconcile him with Jesus? Since this was something I wanted to know, I found a very enlightening book, “Is God a Moral Monster?” by Paul Copan. Guess what? Turns out god is not a bastard after all!

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:48am

      @ALINMATT…..”If God is the author of morality, it is impossible for Him to be immoral even when He commands men to .violate His own laws. But it is inconsistent.” This is logically flawed reasoning and statement for previous stated reasons. Your conclusions are completely false as they rest on an illogical and flawed presupposition. I’m not really sure why you cannot grasp that as I have pointed out in numerous ways why your reasoning is incorrect yet you keep repeating the same thing. I‘m really sorry freind but that doesn’t make it any more true by repetition. In rejecting the OT you must then have a morality based on what standard?

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Cesium
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:58am

      just remember many of our founders willfully sought to escape “jesus-ism“ in place of ”deism” … If our country continues down the path of “jesus-ism” why did we even bother leaving Europe?

      Report Post »  
  • DeOppressoLiber
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:30am

    There goes Unalienable Rights, no God no Unalienable rights, (to the Atheists, where do they come from?) only the divine rights of Kings and no questioning their powers.

    I thought this was the big question in 1776 and we answered it back then.

    Report Post »  
    • MittensKittens
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:35am

      Remember this article has to do with usa TODAY, WHICH is nothing more than a perverted dumping ground for crap!

      Don’t buy it.

      Report Post » MittensKittens  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:47am

      Unalienable rights superscede any created god being. You are still in your right to live, regardless of “a god” or not. Don’t be melodramatic.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:48am

      substitue inalienable with natural and you will answer your own question. with the Bible there are no inalienable rights, only the rights that a despot deity allows you. the Founders were rebellious against all despots, including the supernatural.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • RIGHTHOOK
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:49am

      @Mitten – You nailed it! That paper has become “everymans paper”. Use it as a doormat when it is left in front of the hotel room door. That is about all it is any good for.

      Report Post » RIGHTHOOK  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:00am

      @ DEVON and PHILLY….if those rights come from the law of nature then those rights don’t exist, because by your own beliefs the laws of nature are natural selection by way of competition, that means the only right is that the strong survive. You have absolutely no moral anchor to lay hold of to justify any “right”. They can be changed in an instance and as such they cease to be rights. You have no right to life, liberty or the pursuit of anything if the authorities want to remove it. Therefore, this contradicts the idea of a right being unchangeable. Also, if there is no objective law giver and therefore rights based on that law then those laws may change at anytime. Therefore, those rights only exist in the sense that the governing authorities grant them to you. Therefore, they are not rights in any way by definition. They are privileges granted for a time and are not necessarily deserved but are dependent upon time, place and government. Those then are NOT rights. Your positions are illogical. Thanks ahead.

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:06am

      hippos, . . . where we wild animals on the Serengeti, you may have an argument. However, we are SOCIAL species. What benefits the whole is what matters. Those who can’t seem to follow that are placed away from others. It isnt’ perfect, but still works. And, . . . don’t talk of “morals” if you agree with all of the Old Testament actions.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:09am

      SLEAZE – i like to think that humans have evolved (and thrived) beyond Darwinian survival of the fittest. our ability to empathize has been important to human success.

      and i don’t believe in absolute moral codes. were there such a thing, then Religions would all agree with one another. yet Religions and their followers have never agreed on what these absolutes are. ethics are relative, as they need to be. like all other behavioral issues, ethics may vary a great deal between individual humans. most, i believe, are good and decent and behave in such as fashion. others are deprived and indecent. this would be the case if Religion were never invented.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:59am

      @ PHILLY….”i like to think that humans have evolved (and thrived) beyond Darwinian survival of the fittest. our ability to empathize has been important to human success. ” So you no longer believe in the basic tenets of evolution? To my knowledge they have not changed and yet you say you like to “think” they have. Do you have evidence of this change? Or is it just based on a belief (something you are opposed to) that it has changed? That is not a scientifically consistent position supported with objective evidence or with your beliefs about how we have arrived to this point in time. If it has changed, then why has it changed? Have these moral laws been invented or are we discovering them? If they are discovered then that means they already existed, which means that they were conceptualized by someone or something other than ourselves. If they are invented then why do you have a concept of right and wrong? Why does right and wrong even exist in the first place? Do animals possess this knowledge of right and wrong? Does it even exist for them? If invented then who decides when competeing moralities clash which is right? The majority? The position is simply illogical PHILLY. But I have asked a lot of questions I will await your responses. Thank you for your time….

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 12:07pm

      @ PHILLY….BTW you refuted your own argument with..” i don’t believe in absolute moral codes” If the statement is true then it is false because in staing you don’t believ in moral absolutes you stated a moral absolute that they do not exist. This is an illogical and self refuting statement. If ethics are relative then they don’t exist in any meaningful way. Let the moral relativist be lied to, be the victim of false advertising, or of a crime and he instantly becomes a moral absolutist. A person’s reaction to what he considers unfair ethical treatment always betrays his true feelings on the matter of relative vs. objective moral laws….when things go wrong for him. Sure, you might say that we all should want to help society function properly and it does not benefit society as a whole to lie, cheat, and steal. But, this is weak intellectual reasoning. What if there were a global economic meltdown and social turmoil ensued so that robbing people at gunpoint to get food became common place. Robbery would then be a social norm. Would such a norm be wrong? If it is not wrong, then you affirm situational ethics and can’t complain when the situation suits somebody else’s fancy and you get robbed at gunpoint. Of course, this would lead to anarchy. It is simply an illogical position when carried to its logical conslusions. Thanks again.

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 12:15pm

      @ PHILLY….”and i don’t believe in absolute moral codes. were there such a thing, then Religions would all agree with one another” This is a logical fallacy as well guilty of being a non sequitur because it does not prove there is no such thing as moral absolutes. It only proves not everyone has the same understanding of what those are. Again, this is an illogical reason to hold that position. Thanks agin.

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 12:17pm

      Sleazy, . . . feel free to see my comments as “illogical”. Regardless, and at the same time, you are also free to believe in a magical god figure who did things supernaturally in the past in order to set up some sort of “plan” where “man can be set free from sin and live forever in a happy paradise.”

      That is the bottom line of religion. It is a system of scared and selfish people looking to get their own reward . . . . and at the same time state that people are worthy of hell. It is paradoxical.

      As for moral relativism and moral absolutes, I have seen and been involved in too many of those discussions. However, there again, you are free to believe some magical entity set up “absoutes” if you want. Reality isn’t interested in your belief system. PROVE to me your “moral absolute law giver”, . . . pray as hard as you can for “him” to show up in my apartment tonight, . . . and if “he” does, I’ll come back here and discuss things with you further.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 12:51pm

      @ DEVON…where in lies the paradox with the Christian concept of guilt, sin, punishment, forgiveness and slavation? Please clarify this statment with a supported argument. Thanks..

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 1:23pm

      Sleazy, let’s just cut to the bottom line. You are interested in logic? Then have your argument about “an absolute moral law giver AND what that means” with a devout muslim [who ALSO has his ideas of "an absolute moral law giver and what that means"]. As I see it, your position is lacking in logic when it is merely YOUR opinion of what YOU BELIEVE to “be right”.

      Also, . . . once again, . . . pray with “all your heart” that your specific god comes to me in my apartment tonight . . . . in other words, quite hiding and actually show itself, and then we can continue this discussion tomorrow. Else, I have no reason to believe you . . . .just because you say to.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 2:58pm

      Sleazy, where have I admitted defeat, . . and where have you shown the “logic” of your stance? Prove your stance here! Do so without any “given” that YOUR god is absolutely true.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 3:02pm

      As for as my evidence of why I’m not a christian, feel free to pick up my book on amazon.com or lulu.com and you can see for yourself.

      And. . . of COURSE you won’t say that prayer, because you know it would never come true, even though my request has the utmost level of sincerety. And though YOU may have seen this god “revealed”, that doesn’t mean I would, too.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 4:17pm

      Of course. As I expected. A William Lane Craig answer. And of course, it must build upon the notion that “there ARE absolute moralities. With that, . . . we’re done.

      And I never claimed “relativism”, but whether you believe it or not, or claim it to be “illogical”, it doesn’t change the fact that many nations DO set up their laws based on their culture, and all too many religious belief systems insist their god to be the one who set up “absolutes to follow”. . . .and, of course, many of them are in contrast to others.

      Have your last say. Insult me if you feel the need. I reject William Lane Craig arguments.

      As for my book, . . . of course, you have set up preconceived notions. There are quite valid arguments in there. . . but you’ll never see them. Your arrogance has you right where it wants you.

      For what it’s worth, . . . have a good life.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • troymac20
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 4:26pm

      Deavon do you only have the 2 books?

      Report Post » troymac20  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 4:33pm

      @ DEVON….apparently my last post disappeared, but you apparently got to read it before it did. For someone who thinks I am arrogant have you read your posts up and down this thread. I have not once personally assualted or attacked you. Yet you have mocked others on here as the written posts indicate themselves. I know of WLC but have never read any of his work. All I see is a disingenuous engagement of debate with the logical fallacy of distraction and you have yet to answer the very simple question of the 3 areas of investigation you have evaluated where the Bible is concerned. I still await your logical argument against moral absolutes and your logical argument for the defense of your position, but so far all I have received are dodging answers. If you have written what you claim these tasks whould be elementary for you and you should be able to easily rebutt my arguments. Yes I do beleive many cultures set up their laws according to their beliefs. I also believe many cultures through time and civilization would point to the fact the certain things are immoral thus pointing and supporting moral absolutes as a reality. The fact that some laws are in contrast do not argue against the existence of moral absolutes, that is a non sequitur and illogical. It argues that many people base their morality on error or falsehood, ie moral relativism. It is not a proof against the existence of absolutes. I welcome you to summarize your arguments for me. Thank you..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 4:34pm

      @sleazy, what do your moral absolutes have to say about killing infants and children?

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:00pm

      @ ALINMATT…I hold firmly to moral absolutes just fine. In fact, your question infers a sense of those moral absolutes or otherwise you would not struggle with the question you posed. I must thank you for demonstarting the inherent idea of morality indeed, thus proving the reality of absolutes in morality! However, your question is flawed if you seek to implicate God as being imoral because your presupposition is fallacious. In the instruction to the Hebrews to kill the nations around them, God had every right as the creator of life to take that life. God made it very clear that the wages of sin was death. For me to take it upon myself to do such a thing would be immoral. However, it is not morally wrong for one whom has created life to take life when He desires to do so. The better question for you to answer is if there are no moral absolutes what is wrong with killing and why does it bother you in the OT?

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:34pm

      @ ALINMATT…..I hold to them very well thank you. Assuming you do not believe in moral absolutes then I have to ask you, why would you even pose such a question? I mean after all your question seems rooted in an inherent sense that that action would be wrong. Therefore I must thank you for demonstarting that the reality that moral absolutes do exist as you have clearly demonstarted by exemplifying an example from the OT that you find egregious. By what foundation do you implicate the OT, by what standard do you measure it against?

      However, for the sake of answering your question, which is flawed because the presupposition is based on a faulty assumption. God, as the creator of life, can morally take life when and for what reason he desires. He has clearly stated from the beginning that the wages of sin is death. I, acting upon my own will and volition, am not permitted to take life for personal reasons because the author of life has not given me the authority to do so. Therefore, it is immoral if I do. It is an absolute completely consistent with the bibles depiction. The corner you have painted yourself in is raising the question in the first place because you assert those actions to be immoral, this then begs the question where that assertion came from. It cannot be relative because then you have no right to question ancient cultures as you would be guilty of the fallacy of chronological snobbery. I await your response. Thank you ahead…..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:43pm

      @sleazy, the problem I have isn’t with implicating God as being immoral, it’s that He commanded men to violate the laws that He made for them. While God is free to kill whomever, whenever, men kill in the name of God all the time, and the God of the Bible set a precedent for it. That’s my issue. According to the Bible, it is okay to kill infants and children when God tells you to. I remember a story about a mother who drowned her children because God told her to. Where’s the statue in her honor for being so faithful?

      Your question for me. Murder-why I don’t kill my neighbor? Because my neighbor’s friends and family wouldn’t like it and I would be inviting violence on myself and my own family. Theft – I don’t want my stuff stolen. I get together with other like minded individuals and make laws to protect my stuff, those laws also prevent me from stealing other people’s stuff.
      Moral laws, like the war on drugs, adultery, prohibition, etc have dismal records. Adultery laws only work when a woman is a man’s property. The most effective laws in the world are property laws. Murder is not a moral law, it’s about property. My life is my property. My house is my property. I put up boundaries around my property, whether tangible or intangible. In order to protect my life and my children’s lives, I put up boundaries, such as not killing children. If I’m okay with killing other people’s children, those other people will feel free to kill mine.

      Report Post »  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:50pm

      @sleazy, I have to go to work. I’ll be back in about 5 hours though.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:56pm

      @ ALINMATT….The error in your reasoning is that God is not bound by the moral law he gave to man. I can tell my children that they do not have the authority to or freedom to have sex when they are 10. At the same time I am having sex with my wife. Does that make me immoral? No that means I have authority over my children and know that they do not possess the necessary faculties to do what is best or right. In the same way we kill as you have noted for all kinds of wrong reasons. Only God has the right to determine when it is OK and just to take life. So God is not guilty of breaking his own laws anymore than I would be immoral because I have instructed my children they are not allowed to do what I do in some instances. In the same way God cannot violate who he is in that he cannot lie, He cannot contradict himself. But as far as taking life he has done nothing immoral or contradictory as he is not bound by his law in the sense you have referenced. As far as God telling someone to kill this is not an individual mandate where God deals with individuals to kill other individuals this was a national ordinance brought forth by tetsted prophets recognized and proven by the people and the signs that accompanied them.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 6:23pm

      @ ALINMATT…with regard to your argument about laws and morality you may indeed do them so that others do not revisit those actions upon you but then you are arguing for absolute morality by suggesting others know those actions to be wrong and desire to seek justice in this case by revenge. Stealing is inherently understood to be wrong and this is the question your position cannot answer is why. If you say because you don’t want it to happen to you that is not sufficient as many people steal and never get caught. Larger groups take from smaller groups all over the world without fear of their things being stolen, yet we still know this to be wrong. Your distinction about property and moral laws are fallacious because all laws are moral in one way or another so whether you call it property or not does not alter the issue at hand. Moral relativism is illogical and you cannot judge others if their morality clashes with yours if no objective standard exists. Atheists, to be consistent, should in no way impune or redress others for a morality based in religion, in so doing they actually argue against the very moral relativism they argue for as a reality. Let me ask you this, do you believe in moral absolutes? In full disclosure I want to say I used to be an atheist so I am VERY familiar with arguing your side of the coin and its many flaws and weaknesses. Thank you for your time hope wor goes well…

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Granny58
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:23pm

      @DevonReye – One actually shouldn’t agree with all that happens in the OT. A lot of that was what NOT to do.

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    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:48pm

      @ Sleazy, I would bring a point to the table as well and you have probably said this I’m just expanding. We are sinful creatures and God can take the life of anyone of us because we have broken his laws and that means death. The fact that we are not all dead right now is a sign of his mercy. The fact htat all these atheists have the ability to type their responses is a sign of God’s mercy. That being siad, I don’t think God could bring himself to kill an Angel because Angels are perfect creatures. If he did kill an Angel he would be killing a truly innocent creature which would go against his law compromising his nature which would make him unjust. This is something to hammer home as well.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:06pm

      @sleazy, I can’t get a long post to work here. I‘m going to try under the one I accidentally did just above deoppressoliber’s.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:17pm

      @ DLV…I agree completely. My argument was more focused on the human aspect of morality as God operates within it. You are correct in that God although no bound by the moral law he ahs given us is bound by the character and essence of who he is and therefore could not violate is perfect justice and take the “life” of a sinless angel or being. But in the case of sinful man he is just in taking life when and how he chooses. Thanks friend and sleep well

      @ ALINMATT….I will watch for your posts but going to bed soon so will catch ya tomorrow. Thanks ahead…

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:25pm

      @sleazy, According to the Bible, it is morally justifiable to murder children, even though the Bible also forbids murder. Exodus 20:13, Thou shall not kill. Deut. 24:16, children shall not be put to death for their father’s sin. EXCEPTION: When God says to.

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    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:29pm

      I’m not using my own morality to judge the Bible, I’m using the Bible’s. I understand that God has the right to kill, but handing out laws to men and then commanding them to violate them is hypocritical.

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    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:53pm

      Hypocritical isn‘t the word I should’ve used. Inconsistent.
      It may have been judgment, but God is capable of pulling a Sodom and Gomorrah on His own. Instead He has men do it.
      Tested prophets – would you kill children of a heretical religion if your pastor or religious leader (supposedly someone you trust as a tested spiritual leader) told someone to tell you that’s what God wanted? That’s essentially what happened in 1 Samuel 15. Similar story for the Mt Meadow Massacre done by the Mormons.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:57pm

      @ ALINMATT….well not really sure what your trying to argue since I have already addressed why this is a fallacious line of reasoning since God is not immoral in taking life and therefore does not fit the definition of murder with mal intent. He has told us we may not take life except in the manner and course as he prescribes. Since he is the author of life and he has stated that the wages of sin is death from the beginning, then he is just in taking that life. He is not contradicting himself. He simply prohibited us from holding children guilty for the crimes of their fathers. However, since all are conceived in sin and by our very nature our sinful from birth, God can justly take life when he chooses. The fact that we are born in a fallen sinful state is why all die at some point. The doctirne is that of original sin. BTW the commandment is most accurately translated thou shalt not murder. Killing in some instances is permitted by God. Read about self defense in your home in Leviticus. Also, capital punishment as God gave principles for when it was to be carried out. So I’m not seeing where you have much of an argument here my friend because it was never an exception to begin with. It has been entirely consistent througout the bible. I would ask by what standard do you hold those events to be wrong or unjust and do you believe moral absolutes exist? Thank you ahead….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:59pm

      The tested prophets thing. Maybe Catholics could use that with the Pope and kill off the Protestants.
      As far as stealing being inherently wrong. Dogs will fight for something that they possess. That’s self interest, a natural survival tool. I will fight for my property as well.
      I used to be a Christian, and I’m not talking your typical American Christian, but an actively involved one. I left Christianity because of the moral inconsistency of the Bible. I don’t claim to be an atheist. I’m agnostic.
      As far as arguing morality based in religion, I can use a religion’s moral absolutes against it without being hypocritical

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    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:03am

      The problem is that men did the killing. God can do what He will, but men did the killing.

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    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:10am

      I am not saying that God acted immorally. I’m saying that He commanded men to. And yes, I would define “thou shall not kill” as no murdering. That’s my point. Infants are innocent of crimes demanding the death penalty from men. Men killing them is murder, regardless of who told them to do it, it violates the 6th commandment.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:21am

      @ ALINMATT…..Was God inconsistent when he allowed his sinless son to die at the hands of evil men to secure salvation for those who would believe? He could have just killed Jesus himself but he worked, as he often did, within the faculties of man because it was necessary for men to understand spiritual realities. Namely, that sin has terrible consequences, not just the first death but the more serious second death. Death as a picture demonstrates qualities about the eternal death meaning seperation from the living etc. Also, man being created in the image of God is to participate in the system of justice God has established in that they are to obey him even in dispensing the consequences for sin to others. I could ask why does God have the church discipline its wayward memebers in the NT. Why doesn’t he just pull an Ananias and Sapphira everytime? Because there is much to learn about righteousness and the character of God and the seriousness of sin. Men, like angels, are servants of God meant to carry out his instructions. It was angels that carried out the judgement upon Sodom and so he sometimes chooses men and sometimes other means, but this is not a contradiction or inconsistency. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. God has said, “You shall not murder,“ not ”You shall not kill.” After all, God says killing in self defense is justifiable. Exodus 22:2, . Thanks….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:37am

      If God is the author of morality, it is impossible for Him to be immoral even when He commands men to .violate His own laws. But it is inconsistent.
      In His infinite knowledge and wisdom, why bother giving us a law that’s supposed to never be broken if He’s going to command us to break it later. We’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. To murder or not to murder? Do as God commands and violate the 6th commandment or disobey God and not violate the 6th commandment. Either way we’re disobeying a commandment.
      The real answer to this entire dilemma is the most obvious. Men use religion, ideals, etc and kill in the name of them to accomplish their own will, not God’s. That’s what happened in the OT and that’s why I reject it.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:42am

      @ ALINMATT…dogs sure will fight for food to survive, but this has nothing to do with our discussion of moral absolutes unless you are suggesting dogs believe in them? That was a logical fallacy of weak analogy and distraction. If you have something taken by someone you don’t just want it back you want them to be punished for that wrongful action, ie jail. You also possess the concept of the greater the crime the greater the punishment. Dogs do not possess this concept because they are mere animals of instinct. So I do not think you have adequately defended your dilemma of moral absolutes.
      I also do not believe you have demonstrated any moral inconsistency in the bible therefore you have not logical used it against itself in anyway.

      Of course men did the killing at the direction of God, that is not inconsistent. If I told my child they are not to turn the TV on of their own choosing, but then told them directly, hey would you go over there and turn the TV on for me. I am not being incosistent at all because they were not turning the TV on by their own volition, but at the direct instruction of me, their authority. They would still understand when I was not there they were not to turn it on. So I think your assertion is false and unconvincing. If God wants a life taken then it is lawful killing not unlawful murder. You have confused the two in your argument.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:59am

      can’t get responses to post….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Cesium
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 1:02am

      there is no such thing as “god given rights” You’re rights come from nature! You have the right to defend yourself, with your mind, arms, legs.. very conserved traits you can find in other species.. The religious call it “god given.” If I’m born in the forest with no guidance like Tarzan, just because I’m like an ape man, good luck trying to take away my right to defend myself and pursue my own happiness. GOOD LUCK!

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:54am

      @ ALINMATT….the original language is very specific between the use of the word translaed as murder (unlawful life taking) and killing (lawful life taking). However, when you make your argument using the enlish translations for those words you intermix their meaning and then claim God is inconsistent. Unfortunately for you, it is you who is inconsistent as you confuse the meaning of the two which are carefully used in the bible to indicate the different concepts so it remains completly consistent and you are left with no argument about the morality of God being inconcsistent based upon that line of reasoning….Thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:16am

      @sleazy, If your moral absolutes tell you that killing infants and children is lawful, then you can keep them. I call that murder and so does everyone else. If God wants infants and children dead, that’s His responsibility. He can’t pass that one on to men without them committing murder. It doesn’t matter how many times I express that, you don’t seem to get it.
      Dogs fighting over possession. Men use the promise of punishment as a means of fighting or defending property. Dogs will also escalate reciprocity depending upon the severity of attack just as men make punishment more severe. The argument fits well.
      I have read over many of your posts and have seen that you are quick to claim victory. That comes across as arrogant. Just because you claim that your argument nullifies someone else’s doesn’t make it so. I’m more than confident that anyone who reads our posts will find your arguments short on logic. I’ve also seen that you have to have the last word, so have at it.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:38am

      ALINMATT…now we get to the heart of the matter. You struggle with God’s justice and his authority to take life. When Adam rebelled the entire human race was cast into a sinful state/nature from birth (Adam was the federal representation for all of mankind, just as Jesus was the federal rep. of all believers). David confirms this same undrstanding when he states surely he was conceived in sin. So God who does not delight in the death of the wicked is surely within the bounds of justice to take life (all life) when he chooses. Now within that concept is the fact that since infants/children cannot respond in a coherent way to the gospel that infants/young children are given eternal life as David also seems to indicate that he will go be with his son who’s life was taken by God. David knew he was going to heaven as indicated by his many psalms. Saying everyone calls that murder is the fallacy of overexaggeration. It is not murder by definition because God is lawfully taking life. So your struggle isn‘t really God’s consistency, but rather you struggle with believeing that ALL mankind is really guilty before God and deserves death. So now you would speak to his morality even though you argued initially that you did not claim that God was immoral. When demonstrated that consistency was not an issue, you have now switched to another premise, that’s equally flawed as your initial argument because your presupposition is flawed that all men are innocent to begin with.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:54am

      @ ALINMATT….So you are denying the human concept of Justice? And in the same breath want to equate dogs becoming more aggressive if a threat becomes more eminent as being analogous to the human concept of punishement? While punishment is suppose to carry a deterent effect there is also the concept of the punishment fitting the crime which addresses the concept that ALL men possess, justice for wrongdoing. So you deny the concept of justice? Punishment only serves a protection function against future crime? You have just disagreed with most all philosophers (and most of humanity) through the ages my friend who have acknowledged that one of the things that seperate men form animals is the concept of justice. I assure my intent is not to claim victory nor do I want to convey the attitude of arrogance in any fashion, please forgive me if my passion comes across that way. It is not my intent in sincerity, however, I am quick to point out illogical statments so that hopefully all of us can be better sharpened and equipped to argue our position with consistency. I engage in traditional debate style and would leave it up to others to determine who’s argument is more logically sound. Again, I apologize if you receive that as claiming victory. Finally, I thought we were engaged back and forth? You made assertions I thought you wanted responses to. If you wanted to end it then I would have done so. I am sorry you were offended. Take care friend.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 1:57pm

      You go on and on about me struggling with the concept of God being able to take human life. I keep telling you I have no problem with that. My problem is that God did not take human life, but men did. It doesn’t matter if God commanded them to or not (by proxy I might add), men were personally active and responsible for the murder of infants and children. Men killed babies, not God. Biblically, babies are innocent of crimes that demand a death penalty. Apparently those laws only applied to the Israelites babies. What good are the moral absolutes of the Bible if they don’t apply universally?
      It was typical genocide, but you will never acknowledge that. Instead you would prefer to justify it, which says a great deal about the quality of your moral absolutes.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 4:50pm

      @ ALINMATT…I’ll stand on my argument thus far as I have addressed this issue even using examples. I will let the readers decide for themselves. You like to lay charges at my feet about being arrogant, claiming victory, and going on and on, having the last word and such and thats fine you may have your opinion. I’m a big boy and not threatened by that in the least. You however are being intellectually dishonest and engaging in ad hominem and distraction both of which are logical fallacies and that is before all to see…Good day sir.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 7:34pm

      @ Alinmatt- sir, Sleazy has said before and I’ll say it again. God has the authority to take a life even through people. It is not hypocritical/inconsistent. God has many methods as for the reasons to those methods who knows? The point is there are many methods can use to carry out judgment all are fine and do not break God’s laws. For instance, he can judge them with his own power, weather, random events or yes *gasp* people. All are justifyable because he using people to bring about his judgment. Many times this was for the peole’s benefit as well. Take Saul for instance, he was told to completely destroy a people, absolutely everything, he was God’s judgment on them but he spared a few things. This also served as lesson of the Israelites faith for God. Again, I’ll say it one more time God can use people to bring about his judgment and not break his law. When God says do not kill he is talking about people‘s daily interactions with other people but when God is using the Israelites for judgement they no longer need to worry about breaking the sixth commandment because they are serving as God’s judgment tool get it?
      Additionally, contrary to what you might believe not even babies are truly innocent in God’s eyes. Yes he loves them but they still have a sinful nature and can suffer judgement at any time. That being said since God judge’s people on whether or not they accept Christ and since babies cannot make that decision it would be unjust for god to judge babies.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 7:35pm

      Although there is no complete answer on how God judges babies, a nice answer can be found in hte David and Bathseba story when David’s child does and he knows he will see the child again in heaven. This is a nice reminder that although God hates sin he his merciful is not about to condemn a baby to an eternity in hell on a decision that it was unable to make. That is unjust and the baby question more or less just needs common sense. So while God can take babies when it is their time here on earth because they are sinful it would be against his nature to condemn them. Keeping up? If you have any questions, shoot.

      As for your concern about Israelite judgement from on people and babies. Read hte OT again because countless times he lets them go to their depraved ways. The Babylonian captivity for one, when they were ruled by the Assyrians, the Persians. In fact, they were ruled more than they ruled themselves so don‘t go off saying God’s laws are not universal, if the Hebrews screw up God judges them. Please, read the bible before making an comments.
      “It was typical genocide, but you will never acknowledge that. Instead you would prefer to justify it, which says a great deal about the quality of your moral absolutes”
      No not really it was judgment. Genocide would be wiping out another people group by themselves without God’s judgement. His word makes all the difference. Cont.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 7:36pm

      Lastly, I would agree with you about God being inconsistent/hypocritical if and ONLY IF in one verse he says do not murder and then in another verse says and if you get angry at your neighbor you may slaughter him on your own initiative. That would be God breaking his own law because he is giving people the freedom to kill other people without his judging consent while in another verse saying do not murder. He never ever ever ever says when you feel like it take things into your own hands. As a final closing note, remember God judges sin no matter how small and the wages for sin is death always always always the fact that you and I are here is a testament to his mercy. God would turn unjust however if he killed a perfect creature lets say an Angel. Since they are perfect his law he cannot judge them and they remain innocent. Do you get it? That was my final point if you have any questions feel free to ask.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 10:42pm

      @sleazy, you are correct. I did engage in ad hominem, for which I apologize. I became impatient, because I’m in the middle of harvest and shouldn’t have engaged in lengthy debate when I have minimal free time.
      I will charge you with diversion and distraction in earlier posts. You diverted the argument to my beliefs, while responding to a question about yours. My moral beliefs were irrelevant to the original question. You also engaged in ad hominem by asserting that a moral relativist has no right to question moral absolutes.
      @DLV, thank you for acknowledging what I was trying to say. God used men to deliver judgment. You both obviously agree that God has the right to use men to deliver judgment. From a Biblical perspective, I also agree, but I disagree that men can be used to deliver judgment on somebody not guilty of the crimes being judged. I also have to disagree, based on Biblical conscience. If the laws of God are written on our hearts, it would be morally repulsive for men to kill babies. They would have good cause against God based on conscientious objection.

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    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 2:22pm

      @ Alinmatt “thank you for acknowledging what I was trying to say. God used men to deliver judgment. You both obviously agree that God has the right to use men to deliver judgment. From a Biblical perspective, I also agree, but I disagree that men can be used to deliver judgment on somebody not guilty of the crimes being judged.”
      Thanks for understanding… sort of. I understand this is your opinion but if we are going by God’s laws and God is judging sinful people and he is using people to do it, then there is no problem because he is the ultimate judge and as long as he doesnt condemn a perfect being or allow people to murder on their own initiative then God keeps his law as judge of the universe. Ultimately, everyone can have an opinion against God but as long as He keeps his law he is fine. Ultimately, our puny opinions do not matter. We can keep our opinions and God can continue to be Holy and there aren’t any charges we can bring against him. Each time in the OT god is using the Israelites to judge a GUILTY people not innocent. Another thing to keep in mind is that we are not judging people God is judging people and we are merely his tools in the OT. A great example would be the Aurora shooting who would you judge the person doing the shooting, James Holmes, or the tools he uses?

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 2:23pm

      The tools are innocent and only act under order of the people using which is why the old saying guns don’t kill people, people kill people rings true and it is the same exact thing in this case. Tools are not in the wrong.

      “I also have to disagree, based on Biblical conscience. If the laws of God are written on our hearts, it would be morally repulsive for men to kill babies. They would have good cause against God based on conscientious objection.”
      I would completely agree if God was not the one to tell the Israelities to wipe out nations. If they did on their own initiative then they would be guilty of breaking his law. God’s word makes all the difference. Please explain how they would have any argument agaisnt God on conscientious objection? If they are his judging tool against wicked people, how can they possibly object? If perhaps a King on his own accord went out and did this then yes, but God is not condemning anyone innocent, and tools are not to be held accountable for God’s judgment. Again, please explain how you came to this conclusion?

      Report Post » DLV  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 2:50pm

      @DLV, I came to the conclusion based on the thought of actually running a sword through a child in front of his mother, or vice versa. I can say that would personally violate my conscience in the most horrific way possible. I would not be able to do it and I would have to appeal to God on the grounds of conscientious objection. By commanding me to do it I’m sinning if I don’t, or sinning if I do because I would be violating my conscience, the laws of God which are wrote on my heart.

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    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 2:58pm

      A command to violate one‘s conscience is also a command to break God’s law, since that is what our conscience is.

      Report Post »  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 8:11pm

      Alinmatt- Can I get a verse on the sword running through someone passage? If you had one it would possibly help me explain better.
      “I came to the conclusion based on the thought of actually running a sword through a child in front of his mother, or vice versa. I can say that would personally violate my conscience in the most horrific way possible. I would not be able to do it and I would have to appeal to God on the grounds of conscientious objection.”
      I understand where you are coming from and yes even to me it sounds horrific. But you must understand we are not on God’s level and we cannot possibly see how bad sin is from our level and how much he hates it. Basically, God hates sin as much as this scenario, if you saw someone raping your wife and children in front of you and you could not do anything about it would you be able to forgive the person? How much would you hate the act? Would you punch them to death to make them stop? Well, God forgives people like that all the time. Assuming you despise the act A LOT!!! God hates sin pretty much a million times more than you hating someone for raping your family. This tells you a lot about God‘s character when he forgives people but that’s how much he hates sin and if he decides to judge someone through a terribly horrific means because they have done some despicable acts who are we to judge his plan. Cont.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 8:20pm

      Another scenario. Have you heard of Lord of the rings? Assuming you have, would you run a sword through a ringwarith? Well, not be too extreme but that is sort of how God views us, evil with no good without Christ and yet he still loves us. That explains a lot. Even unbelievers who do good acts aren’t really doing good because they are not doing it for the embodiment of good Christ. They are doing it for themselves or others but that is not truly good. Since god is the author of everything god anything that is not for him is against him aka “not good.”
      Believe me I understand where you are coming from about running someone through with a sword. Yes, it sounds horrific, but to truly understand how much God hates sin we must put ourselves in God’s shoes so to speak. Instead, of a scenario envisioning Israelites killing innocent people imagine them killing ringwraiths instead. Seem a whole lot less bad doesn’t it? That’s how views wicked people. Btw, God told Israel to annihilate terrible people groups it was up to Israel so to speak on the “how to do it.” It’s not even that God told them to rape everyone and then kill them he just wanted the Israelites to rid them from the planet. If one country wanted to destroy another they mainly used weapons and people have died a lot more gruesome ways (without God’s consent might I add.) If one ancient civilization was to kill another how would you suggest it be done in the best way possible?

      Report Post » DLV  
    • alinmatt
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 10:21pm

      @dlv, as far as “running a sword through them”, I’m making an assumption based on the time period. They used swords to fight wars.
      From a Biblical perspective, I can see God viewing us like a ring wraith, but my issue is with men killing babies, not God. While God may have ordered it, it was men who followed through. I try to put myself in their shoes and see how it would effect my conscience. While I may view their culture as evil and worthy of destruction, being a participant in the killing of babies would make me feel just as evil (imagine the PTS from that). If God killed babies with a plague or with fire and brimstone, I wouldn’t have one complaint.

      As far as how one ancient civilization should wipe another out. I’m not judging ancient warfare from a modern context, just the Bible’s claim to moral superiority. God could’ve wiped them out and kept the blood off the hands of men. The Israelite’s destroyed other civilizations the exact same way as every other civilization has, and that’s my point. They were no different. Civilizations throughout history have killed in the name of some sort of god or ideal, and all the winner’s believed themselves to be justified.

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    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 11:56pm

      Alinmatt- “as far as “running a sword through them”, I’m making an assumption based on the time period. They used swords to fight wars.”
      -Fair enough.
      “From a Biblical perspective, I can see God viewing us like a ring wraith, but my issue is with men killing babies, not God. While God may have ordered it, it was men who followed through. ”
      - Yep, and if God of the universe orders you to kill someone guilty of a crime whats the problem? Did you have a problem with executioners back in the day giving the death penalties to criminals? It‘s the same today if not more valid because it’s God of the universe as the judge.
      “. I try to put myself in their shoes and see how it would effect my conscience. While I may view their culture as evil and worthy of destruction, being a participant in the killing of babies would make me feel just as evil (imagine the PTS from that). If God killed babies with a plague or with fire and brimstone, I wouldn’t have one complaint.”
      Again, I see where you are coming from as for me it would be hard as well, I’m not going to lie. Before I answer, I’m actually very curious to response on the evil act of someone raping your family… not to be mean or hurtful, but seriously some of these people groups did just that to the Israelites. If I remember correctly one people group harrassed the Hebrews in the desert and caused major damage. Years later God ordered them destoryed. Cont.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 11:57pm

      If a people group wronged you that much, if you are indeed trying to put yourself in Hebrew shoes then they probably would have a lot more motivation to destory a people group that wronged them. You have specifically targeted babies because they are the most innocent of man, woman and child. Again, I’m sure soldiers in the army had trouble with this no doubt but again, if you knew those babies would survive and continue to fuel their evil civilization then there might be more motivation to wipe them out. The reasons are fairly simple and straight forward, We don’t want this civilization to survive neither does God. To fuel my point just look at the Muslim countries of the middle East ,while many babies over there may seem innocent as they grow they will be indoctrinated to hate the west, Jews, Christians, atheists, all of the above. They are not so innocent anymore are they? They may be recruited as suicide bombers. Another very helpful thing to realize is that God always looks at the soul, flesh is just something that keeps the soul here on earth. Ultimately, who those babies are is in the soul, and God, at least hte evidence in the bible points to the fact that God does not judge babies. So in actuality, while they may experience one sudden burst of pain, God keeps them safe. If he actually take a look God is saving those babies from indoctrinated and evil. Think of that. Cont.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 11:58pm

      I understand that as a very here and now culture, we tend to focus just on the body. We think thats everything especially atheists so that when you kill babies it is just the most horrific thing in the world (cough cough and yet they have no problem with abortion) to which I would agree, but God looks beyond the body and to the soul and that is what he saves with babies. Otherwise, in my opinion, he would not be a just God and he would be breaking his own laws.

      “God could’ve wiped them out and kept the blood off the hands of men. ”
      That’s the nice thing about this, one of the only times you can actually claim you’re free, blood is not on people‘s hands since they were the tools of God’s destruction. The reason why many times God used his chosen people instead of pulling a sodom and Gommorah is I believe I already stated was for THEIR own benefit. How far am I willing to trust God? Do I trust him with my life? Do I trust him to know what is best for me? The leaders? The country? The faith of the Hebrews was always put into question and they either passed or failed. That is why God used them. This is the bottomline for all of my posts and I will highlight in caps.

      IF PEOPLE HAVE DIRECT ORDER FROM GOD (as long as the person they are killing is guilty, which they always are) TO WIPE OUT A CIVILIZATION THEY ARE NO LONGER KILLERS BUT ARE RATHER TOOLS FOR HIS DESTRUCTION AND WILL NO LONGER SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES FOR BREAKING GOD’S LAWS.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 11:59pm

      Lastly, I‘m sure you wonder how do you know if you’re receiving a direct order from God. Well if you’re curious I can help with that answer. The short version for at least, today‘s age is that you can’t. If people went out and killed and then said but God told me to they would be labeled insane and rightfully so. Bottomline is God does not speak to people nowadays for a few reasons. The first and most important reason is that we have the bible and since Jesus came and there is no one race of people God speaks to on a daily basis those old rules do not apply anymore. We have the bible and that will suffice. For things that go beyond the bible like things in our personal lives, that is what prayer is for. No God will never say go out and kill someone anymore but he does speak to us very personally when reading scripture or through prayer. I myself have heard his voice, not a literal voice mind you but more like a VERY strong feeling about something. I have also heard about his works like miracles one that he did for my aunt curing her Emphesyma even though doctors perfomed no surgeries and gave her no medicine, she was just magically cured one day.

      I do have this to say. I do appreciate this civil discourse and the fact we can disagree and not have to hurl insults across the internet. I also appreciate your willingness to learn unlike many atheists who just wish to rant and not care about truth or context. Thank you very much.

      Report Post » DLV  
  • ChildofJesus
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:27am

    Scary isn’t it? God’s children have to be strong and courageous. He hasn’t given us a spirit of fear, but of Power,Love, and a sound mind. we have to stay fixed on him no matter what. To be a City on a Hill. Be with us Lord, help your children to be salt to this dying world.

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  • h20sue
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:19am

    They are athiest when they want to be, but if something major happens, they seem to jump in front of the cameras and claim they prayed for their lives. Such a bunch of c—p.
    I’ve known only one athiest in my life, and he committed suicide. His widow was helped financially by a local church and changed her religion. Amazing, just amazing, and because he was an athiest, I wish I knew whether he made it to heaven or hell. Even more of a shame, as he was a nice guy, and always helpful to others, just battled demons after he lost his job. The demons won.

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    • wvernon1981
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:13am

      Why would you follow a god that would send someone to hell for disbelief?

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    • commonsensefreethinker1
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:37am

      @H20SUE

      While I feel sorry for the guy that committed suicide your point means nothing. If you are saying that all athiests are suicidal . That’s like saying everyone that owns a gun is going to commit murder. Believe me !! there are far more christian and religious nut jobs that have caused murder, death and, suicide. People are realizing that your book of jibberish is just that……Jibberish. If you actually had a true show of hands in your church alone of people that actually had the balls to admit that they do not believe what is being spewed out of the pastors mouth you would have heart attack i’m sure of it. They just want to be accepted in their community and are not willing to rock the status quo boat.

      Report Post » commonsensefreethinker1  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:44am

      @WVERNON….God is simply giving you what you have clearly stated throughout your life, that you don’t want to be with Him. Not wanting to intrude on your desire to be seperate from Him, He is simply giving you what you have stated you desire by the way you have lived your life. The definition of hell is the complete and absolute absence of God in any meaningful way. He simply gives you what you have wanted.

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:47am

      @ COMMON…Tell me where you derive your sense of what right and wrong really is? Do you believe in moral absolutes? Thanks ahead…

      SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:36pm

      Bam sleazy strikes again like a verbal batman! Haha I was going to give my argument but Sleazy continues to mop up resistance. You’ve got a fan sir! I highly respect you.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:26pm

      @ DLV…I truly appreciate your encouragement, but I can claim nothing of myself. I am what I am only because of Christ. I have no truth or wisdom of my own, its all plagerized from God. Maybe Alfred would be more fitting rather than Batman haha. Fight the good fight, God bless !

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:40pm

      @ H2Osue

      Point well taken. Scandanavia is a majority atheist and they have the highest suicide rate in the modern world.
      According to a recent study published in The American Journal of Psychiatry religious affiliation is associated with significantly lower levels of suicide compared to religiously unaffiliated people, atheists and agnostics.
      http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
  • barber2
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:15am

    Guess this explains why Big Brother Government is becoming so powerful. The New Age God of Government Who will redistribute your material goods according to how Big Brother dictates and Who will govern you , not with 10 Commandments, but with a billion Laws and Regulations . Big Brother’s New Heaven on earth . ( think this has been tried before in other places. Did not turn out too well . Was more like Hell )

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    • commonsensefreethinker1
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:39am

      @SLEAZYHIPPOS

      Not sure what my post has to do with the sense of right and wrong but I guess I will enlighten you.
      It is called a conscience, and “my definition” is a natural instinct that one has to determine the act of right or wrong doing. It does not involve as portrayed in cartoons and cheezy movies an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. I really can’t believe I just had to explain that.

      Report Post » commonsensefreethinker1  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 4:34pm

      @ COMMON…..My reply seems to have disappeared…

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 5:38pm

      @ COMMON…I really don’t have the time or energy to rewrite why your position is illogical so please refer to the thread of posts above at DEVON and you will understand my argument aginst your position and why your statement is illogical. Thanks….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:38pm

      Sleaze if I may give a suggestion copy all your long arguments just in case they “disappear” it annoyed me as well when they vanished but copy paste does wonders for back up. :)

      Report Post » DLV  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:13pm

      @ DLV…I agree have done that but sometimes have 4 or 5 comments going at a time. Oh well, I can always just reply again although it is frustrating at times… Thanks and God bless…

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
  • 5th generation american
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:07am

    Yet have a shooting, like the movie in CO. and everyone is THANKING GOD they lived through the shooting. They hid behind seats and PRAYED.

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    • TRUECON19
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:16am

      What about the 12 people that died. I bet they prayedtoo.

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    • holy ghostbuster
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 7:18pm

      And what about the ones who got out safely but didn’t pray? Rather than waste time praying, and hoping they would be “saved,” some actually took action and saved themselves.

      Report Post » holy ghostbuster  
  • Copo
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:03am

    Most of this is probably from the mix and match type pantheist people who think that all roads lead to “God or whatever you want to call it”.

    Report Post » Copo  
    • ReynMansson
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:34am

      No those folks are counted in categories like “spiritual”. Nones doesn’t include that.

      Report Post » ReynMansson  
  • truthnstuff
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:02am

    The turn away is not from GOD. It is a rebuke of “Christianity”. As a former zealous zombie, following with “BLIND FAITH” the myths and distortions of the so called Old Testament I finally stopped drinking the kool aide and did some research for myself.

    Yes God exists and he exists just as He revealed himself to Moses in the original book. Nothing about the NT can be verified outside the NT writings. Even the most famous god-man of all history cannot be found outside the Christian writings.

    Since all this information is available now and can be researched by just about anyone with a computer, discerning minds are waking up. Go outside the book and one will find that a goose does not lay golden eggs.

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  • sWampy
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:02am

    http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/ is working as planned. ;-(

    Report Post »  
  • Master.Debater
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:00am

    These days there is less stigma attached to being a godless communist, I’m afraid.

    Report Post » Master.Debater  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:44am

      You fear what isn’t real.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:44pm

      @ Deavon

      And you condemn and ridicule something you claim isn’t there? You spend hours and hours getting all hot and bothered over something you claim doesn’t exist, but we’re the irrational ones??
      Let me stop laughing now….

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
    • hatchetjob
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 6:29pm

      BINGE_THINKER, Right on!!!

      Report Post » hatchetjob  
  • ElDeVerde
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:57am

    I have been listening to the arguments for and against a belief in God all of my life. To accept God as real requires you to accept that Satan and evil are real. For some reason many are unable to wrap their head around a heaven and hell concept. Ergo, I find that arguing belief or non-belief as fruitless. When the end finally does arrive (and it will for all of us) then the truth shall truly be revealed and all those who are so **** sure that God doesn’t exist will either pass into nothingness or into an eternity of regret. Either way, when I encounter a non-receptive group I “shake the dust of that town from my feet” and move on.

    Report Post » ElDeVerde  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:06am

      “When the end finally does arrive (and it will for all of us) then the truth shall truly be revealed and all those who are so **** sure that God doesn’t exist will either pass into nothingness or into an eternity of regret.”

      Belief alone won’t get you to heaven according to the Bible. Even demons believe. You‘re making Pascal’s Wager, a terribly weak justification for belief. You’re also saying in effect that you only believe because you want eternal life, rather than because you accept and follow Christ. I wouldn’t be too sure of your “final destination!”

      Report Post »  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:56pm

      Locked- honestly, what are you talking about you are not making one iota of sense. The entire religion of Christianity is centered around the fact that We believe in Jesus as our savior. The quote from the bible is that even the demons “believe that god exists” but they don’t “believe that Jesus died on the cross to save them from their sins.” There is a huge difference. Do your homework before typing. PLEASE! Ignorance about christianity is insanely profound from atheists and sadly from christians as well sometimes.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:03am

      @DLV

      Are you claiming Pascal’s Wager is proper justification for belief? Ie, that the ONLY reason to believe in Christ is because you can live forever?

      As that’s what Eldeverde said, and you just defended him.

      Report Post »  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 9:35am

      Locked- The reason we believe in Jesus is because A- we need to be saved from our sins and Jesus was that sacrifice. I follow Jesus because it is also the truth, and the truth I will follow. I am not following Jesus for the selfish reason of I only want to get to heaven and have be all about me, me, me. I realize I am sinful, I realize I need a savior to save me from myself, that is why I believe in him. Simply because it is the truth and I need to be saved from myself. It’s very simple, at least the way to get to heaven is. I’ll be the first to admit however, that the problem of evil and why doesnt God to this and that is anything but simple and these questions are often wrestled by everyone. I have found many answers but many more still I wrestle with and thats part of the christian experience. That’s fine.

      Pascal’s wager has a certain amount of mystery to it. With Christ it’s simple and straightforward. If you believe, then you go to heaven 100 percent there is no shred of doubt. If not you don’t. There is nothing confusing about that. For Christians belief in Jesus is certainty. This is what you must understand. For muslim’s however, your argument certainly does have validity because even if you are a muslim, there is a chance you won’t get into heaven. There is more mystery involved. Thanks for your time.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • formidable_foe
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 5:50pm

      @Locked,

      It seemed to me that Pascal’s Wager was primarily arguing that our life would be better ON EARTH if we were to live our lives like there is a God vs. there being no God. In other words, if we live an immoral, Godless life and we find out at death there really was no God… well, we get to be right. Big woop. However, if there is a God…. well, that’s creates some serious problems for us if we spent our entire life denying Him. If we live a moral life that would please God and we find out at death there really was no God… we still at least benefited by likely having many friends, loved ones, less stress, more happiness, better physical health, etc. If we are to find out there really is a God…. AWESOME ~ we will have eternal life with Him. By the way, I think Pascal was a mathematician, not any kind of religious zealot.

      Report Post » formidable_foe  
    • Chet Hempstead
      Posted on July 27, 2012 at 12:56am

      Arguments in support of the existence of God are not going to change how people view religion. Even if we all grant that the complexity and organized nature of life, the universe and everything indicates that is some unidentified and unquantified force acting to increase the probability of chaotic processes yielding orderly results, and agree that in the absence of any other name for it there is no point in objecting to people choosing to call it God, that doesn’t mean that it is necessarily conscious, and it certainly doesn’t mean that it talked to people in one part of the world a few thousand years ago and gave them a book of rules to be followed by all people everywhere forever, even if some parts of it really seem to only make sense for the people of the time and place when it was written, but that people from other parts of the world who made the same claim about some different old book which says a lot of the same stuff but isn’t exactly the same were all lying or crazy just like people today who claim that the invisible organizing force of the universe talks to them.

      Report Post »  
  • Johnny916
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:49am

    I’m a non-religious American who is good person without religion and spirituality. There are times I do believe in a personal God and identify as a deist. I have friends who are religious and there are times I will attend services at the churches my friends attend or the mosque my other friend attends. There is no shame in being a skeptic and wanting to understand why people choose to believe in their lives. I only wish others will respect the beliefs and identity of others.

    Report Post »  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:56am

      here here, JOHNNY! now watch as the hateful messages to your plea for harmony roll in…

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • Miguelito
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:09am

      I am a believer. That said I believe Jesus did not come to earth to give us another religion. Religion is ruled by man and we know how rule of man has worked out. For me it is my personal relationship with God. There is evil all around us. It is sad that this great country appears to be turning its back on God. This great country was founded on God’s Principles and has become a great nation. Now the country is being destroyed from within and I mean Dems. and Repubs. I pray everyday that this nation will turn back to God!

      Report Post »  
    • Johnny916
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:24am

      I will have to respectfully disagree. America in my opinion was conceived as a secular nation. However, we do have a rich Christian history. I believe many Americans enjoyed living in a secular society better than have a one church or Christian denomination that would have power over other Christians and non-Christians. I do not believe in Jesus but Jesus is a interesting figure to me.

      Report Post »  
    • MrButcher
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:26am

      Deists don’t believe in a “personal God.”

      Their concept is, at best, very non-personal.

      Report Post » MrButcher  
    • Johnny916
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:37am

      I see my beliefs coming closer to deism. That is why I say I identify as a deist.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

      Report Post »  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:58pm

      I actually respect Johnny’s honesty and humbleness unlike your outright hatred Philly. So there will be no hateful remark from this Christian.

      Report Post » DLV  
  • DeavonReye
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:45am

    I really have to wonder how many people would BE “a christian” if there had never been a “fear of eternal hell” put into the mix. If it had ONLY come down to “belief in an unseen god”, how many would have “given their life” to that concept?

    I once was “a christian”. Put in quotes because, . . . though I read the bible and fully agreed with what I read. . . .and agreed with pastors at the pulpit, . . . I “believed” because it was what people expected of me. I did so because PEOPLE told me that if I didn’t, I would “go to hell”. So I embraced it for a couple of decades. . . . all the while [as I understood later] feeling/detecting/seeing nothing even remotely close to “a supernatural god”, . . . and cannot even think of a time when I came away from praying at the alter AND feeling as though I “heard from god”. What I remember is an undenyable emptiness and silence when “pouring my heart out”.

    I understand the disconnect now. There never WAS a connection outside my THINKING there “had to be one, because they told me it was real”.

    So if people are falling away more and more, there IS a reason. . . . . and it has nothing to do with “rebellion”.

    Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:00am

      DEAVON – there‘s a powerful passage from Dan Barker’s book “Godless” that describes his final sermon before coming out Atheist. before he went on stage, he was excitedly informed that the town’s lone Atheist was in attendance. the tortuous description that he offers of that final performance is nearly too painful to bear. he describes wanting to stop in the middle of a song to call out to the unknown man named Harry and tell him “Harry, i’m sorry, you’re right. this is all nonsense and gibberish.” highly recommend the read, if only for the first several chapters where he describes his path from Evangelical soul winner to Atheist activist.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • Copo
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:12am

      Actually that doctrine is finally being brought into question (how it survived the reformation is beyond me). People are finally realizing that unquenchable means will never be satisfied, not that things put in the fire won’t be destroyed, that the Greek word hades is equivalent to the Hebrew sheol, and the Gehenna was an actual place outside of Jerusalem where bodies were burned during times of plague that Jesus was drawing a comparison to.

      Report Post » Copo  
    • sawbuck
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:17am

      Deavon
      ‘I really have to wonder how many people would BE “a christian”
      if there had never been a “fear of eternal hell” put into the mix.’
      __________________________________________________

      Are you really that ignorant…?
      That was like saying – I wonder how many murderers there
      would be, if there wasn’t a fear of death penalty or prison ..?

      Actions always have Consequences .

      Report Post » sawbuck  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:41am

      Sawbuck, . . . are YOU that ignorant? I didn’t realize I was addressing the U.S. Judicial system in my comment. Firstly, you MUST be presented with a physical law and system that WILL incarcerate you. Secondly, you KNOW you are being arraigned by actual people!!! Thirdly, you will FEEL the bars between you and the outside world. No “faith” required.

      Are you going to bow to the Muslim who tells you that YOU must convert to Allah and bow to his will . . . or else? What’s your response to that? “Well, . . . Allah is a false god, blah blah blah”. Prove it.

      Of course, there is no Allah. .. . . . . . .same for your vision of your god.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:20am

      Thanks for the suggestion, PhillyAtheist.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:23am

      Besides. . . . it was a rhetorical question.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • sawbuck
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:27am

      Deavon
      First off I worded that poorly..
      I should have said that it was a ignorant statement..
      I should NOT have implied that you were ignorant .
      and thus bringing defensive wording to this discussion.. My bad.

      That said..
      This is the old ‘what came first the chicken or the egg’ argument.

      Believers In God say ..He made the rules .. He handed down the laws to us
      …Giving us punishment to actions that GOD forbids.

      Atheist say man made the rules and use God as tool .to control the people..
      Saying this is the law ..Giving us punishment to actions that MAN forbids.

      Where did man get this crazy notion of what should be right and wrong
      in the first place.. Evolution ..?

      Because “IF” it was ‘evolution’…
      It would appears that we are ‘evolving backwards’ these days..

      Toward MORE ..Corruption and Lawlessness and Perversions…

      Kind of like it was …‘In the days of Noah’

      Before the Ten Commandment were handed down
      From GOD to Moses…

      How ironic is that …..or should I say Godless…?

      BTW.. I put Islam in the perversion category.

      Report Post » sawbuck  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:39am

      Dan Barker is easily demonstrated illogical in many of his conclusions. I know some prominent atheists that are not fans of his because they are intellectually honest. There are better informed men than him. All of that said, atheism is an illogical position. Thanks ahead…We can debate it if you wish, I used to be an athesit as PHILLY is well aware.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:50am

      SLEAZE – i‘m not so concerned with Barker’s assertions as i am his story. you could argue is reasoning is faulty, but that really doesn’t matter. the beginning of his book is where the real meat is. the rest is his personal philosophy regarding the Bible and religion. quite frankly it gets boring once he gets into that.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:01am

      Sawbuck, thank you for clearing that up. I retract what I poked at you with as well.

      Yes, there appears to be two sides on the subject “did a god make rules, or did humans make rules”. In my honest and sincere opinion, . . . and since I have seen nothing remotely similar to “the supernatural” at work, I must resort to the most likely reason.

      In the past, people were war like [well, seemingly more than the present], superstitious, and wanted more things then they had [which is still much like today]. I can conceive of the possibility that a system was set up where people, due to their lack of knowledge of the natural world, transferred that lack of knowledge to “something bigger than them”. Lightning can be awesome, and appear “supernatural” when you don’t understand the principles that make it happen. So, I can see a few men, eager for power, deciding what this “supernatural being” [because it HAD to be a being like us, afterall] wanting from people, and how to act [to induce fear when they act natural], and eventually have a large group of people who would be at their command to . . . wage war. . . pillage for goods . . . enslave for free labor . . . . . . and all the people looking to them who were [conveniently] the ONLY ones who could “enter the holy of holies without dying”.

      A short snynopsis, but seems far more likely than an actual supernatural entity that did stuff for a short time, then vanished, never to be seen again.

      Anyway, just

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 3:01pm

      @ PHILLY….It may be boring but you are wrong asserting that the meat of the book is in his personal story because it is in his reasoning (that is faulty and easily argued against) that he came to the conclusions he did in his personal life. The reality and therefore the truth of what he stands on is only as good and useful as the reasons and logic he used to arrive at those conclusions. Therefore to me it is extremely crucial when evaluating his life story. Would you not agree?

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
  • Baddoggy
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:40am

    Obama is doing a good job of expanding his sick in the head voter base…Great job Mr President, you sorry POS.

    Report Post » Baddoggy  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:03am

      “sick in the head voter base”

      says the guy who correlates the increased Godlessness of the country to the Christian President of the United States, and then calls him a POS. hmmmm……

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • SoNick
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 1:02pm

      Ok, so a person hears voices, becomes a born again christian and is, all of a sudden, a righteous and moral individual. Another person is filled with doubts, studies the human experience, reads lots of books, religious and anti-religious, has discussions with people with opposing viewpoints, weighs the evidence and decides to become an unbeliever. And you’re telling me the second one is “sick in the head”? Atheism is not a “revealed” truth, it is usually the product of a long reflexion on what it means to be human (hence Humanism). Religious sentiment has a lot more in common with mental disorder than atheism does. And no, I’m not saying relidions people are nuts!

      Report Post »  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:49pm

      The God-hating left dismantle and ridicule religion because it provides a realization of their corruption to mankind.
      They HATE people of independence because people like that are HARD to deceive and difficult to bully. Socialist HATE what they cannot CONTROL.
      They are corrupt in everything they do because their ethics revolve around their agenda. Their agenda is control, deception, wealth and power.

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
  • RightUnite
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:40am

    I wonder if the polling they did was only done on Democraps.

    Report Post »  
  • kaydeebeau
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:39am

    A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell. C. S. Lewis

    Report Post » kaydeebeau  
  • marybethelizabeth
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:38am

    I guess the growing unbelief is the reason for all the unsold seats to Mr. Beck’s Summer of Love Music Fest.

    Report Post » marybethelizabeth  
  • hauschild
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:36am

    “1 in 5 Americans Are Now Atheists, Agnostics or Nones”

    And, then, the masses have the gall to wonder incredulously when mass murders occur – like they have no idea why these things happen. It’s utter insanity.

    Report Post »  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:42am

      i know right. there are still far too many Believers.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:57am

      “And, then, the masses have the gall to wonder incredulously when mass murders occur – like they have no idea why these things happen. It’s utter insanity.”

      Hmmm… Columbine happened in 1999, so halfway between the 1990 rate of 6% and the 2008 rate of 15%. So that means that roughly 10.5% of the population were “Nones” during that massacre… and yet it still happened.

      I believe in God, but I also believe that people will still murder others even if more of the population has a belief in the supernatural. Human emotion (and lunacy) will override belief quite often.

      Report Post »  
  • Godswatching
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:31am

    Funny how Atheist spend their lives trying to prove there is no God. For I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper, not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future. ” Jeremiah 29:11

    Report Post »  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:38am

      Uh. . . . . .they don’t. Atheism is ONLY a rejection of the CLAIMS of those who profess a “faith system” without adequate/credible evidence.

      So, in a way, YOU are “an atheist” concerning Allah, Vishnu, Thor, Loki, Zeus, etc.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • justangry
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:50am

      @Deavonreye, You mean that the drought and bad crops this year isn‘t because Demeter is PO’d? :)

      Report Post » justangry  
    • Copo
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:07am

      @Deavon well technically all the pagan deities can be traced back to 3 deities who are based on real people (Nimrod, his prostitute wife who killed him, and her illegitimate son.) who deified themselves to answer the question “why should we obey you?”

      Report Post » Copo  
    • Copo
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:16am

      And by deified I of course mean that they pretended to be supernatural powerful deities and made a religion based on themselves in which they gave themselves superpowers and told people to worship them. They enforced it through confessions with priests (sound similar?) that would be used as blackmail.

      Report Post » Copo  
    • commonsensefreethinker1
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:08am

      @GAWDSWATCHING

      Sorry but there is no god plan. You as a human create your own plan, destiny, future, etc. You and you alone are responsible for you actions in life. For example the guy in Co. jesus,god or the devil had nothing to do with it , he made a “CHOICE” A “DECISION” to do what he did and carried it out. The devil did not make him do it, he is just crazy and psychologically broken that’s all. So stop quoting your old fish wrap book and come back to reality.

      Report Post » commonsensefreethinker1  
    • Godswatching
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 2:24pm

      To Devon- There are allot of “Gods”, but there is only one true God. The one who created you and this earth. I will pray that you will find the one who has come to save your soul before your death. It is written that “Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

      Report Post »  
    • DeavonReye
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 2:48pm

      godswatching, . . . you mean . . . save me from himself. After all, it was his plan from the beginning. Creat people flawed, order them to be perfect, become angry when people can’t [or rather, when they act natural], set up some sort of weird focus on “blood spilled”, then when his initial plan [sacrificing animials to appease his anger] fails, . . . comes as “his son”, to pay himself for people’s “sins” [again, acting naturally], so that he would no longer be angry and cast those, who don’t believe other people who make incredulous claims, into an eternal fire for “not believing . . . . a story”. Then remains completely unseen, unheard, unfelt after setting up a book that reads like some sort of weird fairytale.

      As I said to another, . . . feel free to pray fervently for your god to come to me in person, tonight, then I will be able to understand better what you’re pushing.

      Report Post » DeavonReye  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:51pm

      Devon- No Devon save you from yourself.
      “Creat people flawed”
      No he created them perfect, read Genesis.
      “order them to be perfect, become angry when people can’t [or rather, when they act natural],”
      It’s called free will, even Lucifer had it come on keep up. God still gave humans a choice and they chose incorrectly. God is saddened by our sins, sure, but the fact that you and I are typing is a huge testament to his mercy and the delay of his nature to punish evil/sin. You atheists love to bring up that God is some evil psychotic monster and yet you’re still here typing. If we put ourselves in the Christian mindset it goes a long way to showing his mercy.

      “[sacrificing animials to appease his anger] fails,”
      *Picard face palm* Jeez don‘t type unless you know what you’re talking about. It’s statements like this that make me think you were lying when you said you were a Christian before. This is simple stuff and Christians should know it. The reason why there was animal sacrifices was not to appease anger but it was symbology transfering sins to the animal so that the animal could “take your fall” and that you may live. You must remember that God hates all sin and it is his instinct (not the right word but its the closest I could come up with) to punish all sin and protect his law. He loves humans so much that he delayed his judgement or sins were transferred. I just judge must carry forward jusice this is why he is just and we are not. Cont.

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:52pm

      Jesus was the reason why it changed. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for everyone so the animal sacrifices would not be needed.
      You’re right sin is in our nature, that much you understand (thankfully). Sin is a constant temptation for Christians and God realizes that it is difficult and doesnt exactly expect us to be sinless which is why Jesus was neccessary. I don‘t claim to know the answer why God just doesn’t erase everything and start fresh with the world perfect when Adam and Eve screwed up, but he is God and looks into the grand scheme of things so I don’t exactly question those things. There is a reason, but that’s not the point. The point is God loves us so much that he gave us a way out of our own sin. The fact that you think God is evil for condeming everyone to hell is just ignorant. That‘s pretty much saying it’s evil for the judge to sentence that man to life in prison for murdering someone. Before you say something “I didn’t realize we were talking about the American judicial system” it‘s a great analogy so don’t even bother. To continue, it’s like the judge saying however, if you take this long class, do community service and what not we will lessen your sentence. Then the defendant just says no, I think I’ll stick with life in prison. Instead, of taking the judge’s gift he goes with life in prison, that’s his choice SOOOOOOOO DO NOT BLAME GOD FOR YOUR DECISIONS! :D

      Report Post » DLV  
    • DLV
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:52pm

      so that he would no longer be angry and cast those, who don’t believe other people who make incredulous claims, into an eternal fire for “not believing . . . . a story”
      You really need to look more on the evidence of Christ. It’s not just believing a “story.” Christians belive Christ’s death and ressurection as fact, and there is plenty of evidence for it. God doesn’t expect us to be lazy, do your homework. Being skeptical and doing your homework is good if you find that God doesn’t seem to answer you. I can say I pray a good amount and it seems like God doesn;t answer me on several different things but I‘m not weak willed and I don’t give up, I’ve felt his presence, I’ve heard his voice (in a different way than normal obviously). May I suggest the Case for Christ, Lee Strobel, former atheist, it’s a good read and it gives good evidence on why Lee found the evidence for Christ so convincing. Again, it’s more than a story.

      “Then remains completely unseen, unheard, unfelt after setting up a book that reads like some sort of weird fairytale.”

      I have said it before and I’ll say it again Christians feel and hear God. You need to be actively searching for it. Not for selfish reasons. Like prove yourself to me now God! I demand it! He doesn’t need to prove himself to you, you need to prove yourself to him. If you take this humble approach, you’ll find communication eaiser. Unseen is where faith comes in.

      I always find that being an atheist takes m

      Report Post » DLV  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:04am

      You have to understand that when people like Deavon and NoCommonSense chime in and challenge you to “prove God” they are doing so out of a challenged emotional state. God can be described. He is a Being who has the capacity to communicate with us through prayer and meditation, who is perfect in knowledge, power, love, and justice. If God exceeds our capacity of complete or comprehensive description, that is proof of our limitations, NOT of His nonexistence.
      This is a good book in understanding the fallacies used by the godless and why they do what it is they do.
      Philosophy of Religion: Thinking About Faith (Contours of Christian Philosophy)
      http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Religion-Thinking-Contours-Christian/dp/0830838767/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343275343&sr=8-1&keywords=philosophy+of+religion

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
    • formidable_foe
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 6:13pm

      @Deavon,

      I think if God did visit you in your apartment tonight, you would probably think he was some kind of hallucination from the drugs you must be taking… AND STILL WOULDN’T BELIEVE! There are many verses in the Bible where Christ calls out his own disciples on their lack of faith, and they were with Him every day seeing His works first hand. It should be no suprise that you are the same as the disciples in this regard. However, the way you are different is that you don’t listen to Christ and feel ashamed of your lack of faith like the disciples did. By the way, before you go there: Christ wasn’t trying to shame his disciples, but was rather trying to reassure them that they need not have any fear.

      Report Post » formidable_foe  
  • historyguy48
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:30am

    Comrades the wife and I are unafiliated, but that doesn‘t mean we don’t believe. Our church went Marxist and we haven’t found another yet.

    Report Post » historyguy48  
    • kaydeebeau
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:40am

      praying for you in your search. Don’t give up the hunt!!

      Report Post » kaydeebeau  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:44am

      jeez, where do you live? were is so inclined i hope nearly 20 options within a mile radius of my house. how hard is it to find another Church?

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • Locked
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:58am

      “Comrades the wife and I are unafiliated, but that doesn‘t mean we don’t believe.”

      Then you wouldn’t be a “None,” would you? You’d be Christian.

      Report Post »  
    • Copo
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:04am

      @Phillyatheist most of those options are probably either mainline liberal Protestant or Catholic.

      Report Post » Copo  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:18am

      COPO – so what is an acceptable Church to join?

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • watashbuddyfriend
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 10:39am

      @historyguy48, the most important thing is to Believe in Jesus Christ, nothing else matters. Of course, it is nice to be able to associate with fellow believers. Sound like you have taken the Right Road. With the proper decision in your Right Lobe (the Heart that counts), you are covered. Do you know that all you can take to Heaven is Bible Doctrine in your Soul? The heart in the chest stays behind!

      Report Post »  
    • LIB3RTY4991
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:19am

      @ Philly, being one who is looking for a new church himself, and as you would not understand as an Atheist, choosing a church is not the same as going to to the Supermarket and learning that your favorite brand of cereal is now discontinued and you just pick up a similar one and move on with your life. Choosing a new church requires that many variables come into play. Big church vs. small, hymns vs. contemporary, full body baptism vs. dripping water on the head, does the church take communion weekly, quarterly, annually etc. How is the pastor does he focus on growing the congregation’s faith or does he attempt to explain Christianity to new believers. Sermon series or not. Although none of these characteristics are “right or wrong”, personal preferences come into play. To imply that he should just move on and another one because there are 20+ nearby is wrong, and as long as a church teaches the Bible, I don’t have a problem with it on a philosophical level. If you choose to respond to me with sarcasm or anything like it I will not reply, but I would enjoy having a civil discussion with you.

      Report Post » LIB3RTY4991  
    • phillyatheist
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 11:49am

      LIBERTY – while i have never had to pick a church, i was raised Catholic. i also attended many other denominations of Christian Churches. also my family has had to find a new Church from moving, so i have some familiarity on the subject.

      my assumption was that with so many options, at least one of them would seem a good fit. perhaps i’ve over simplified my thought process. thanks for the input.

      Report Post » phillyatheist  
    • commonsensefreethinker1
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 11:48am

      @BINGEDRINKER

      (He is a Being who has the capacity to communicate with us through prayer and meditation,)

      NO! it’s called schizophrenia. Just call your local psych ward and ask them how many of their residents say they communicate with jesus or god. You just havn’t been caught.

      Report Post » commonsensefreethinker1  
    • The_Cabrito_Goat
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 1:20pm

      Perhaps I misjudged you Philly

      Report Post » The_Cabrito_Goat  
  • The Jewish Avenger
    Posted on July 25, 2012 at 8:28am

    dont worry in 20 years, 50% of those 1 in 5 are going to start vocailizing an admittance that they actually do pray… they just never had anyone to help confirm their faith.

    You dont live a Christian nation without getting some of the morals rubbed off on ya… that’s called “planting a seed”

    Of course, that’s why we have secualr and SOME ****-whatevers bombarding the media and the public with shame tactics so that its as suppresed as much as possible.

    Report Post » The Jewish Avenger  
    • ReynMansson
      Posted on July 25, 2012 at 9:40am

      In 20 years the Nones will be the majority.

      Report Post » ReynMansson  
    • binge_thinker
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 12:12am

      122 million people attend religious services in the U.S. on a typical weekend, and couple that with the percentage of folks that do not believe in God has remained dormant for decades and there is little to fear from this small but loud group of demagogues.
      http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/americans-continue-believe-god.aspx
      The only thing that has changed is that the media now gives them more attention than what they actually deserve.

      Report Post » binge_thinker  
    • Quiata
      Posted on July 26, 2012 at 8:49am

      @REYNMANSSON “In 20 years the Nones will be the majority.” Mmmmm… really? Not unless they can out-birth certain other religious populations….ahem.

      Report Post »  
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