Hell-Questioning Pastor Resigns From Michigan Megachurch
- Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:22am by
Billy Hallowell
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GRANDVILLE, Mich. (The Blaze/AP) — An evangelical pastor who started a firestorm earlier this year with his book that questions traditional Christian beliefs about hell is leaving his Michigan megachurch to share his message with a broader audience.
A statement Thursday on the website of Mars Hill church in Grandville, near Grand Rapids, says Rob Bell will discuss the decision Sunday. A portion of the statement reads:
Feeling the call from God to pursue a growing number of strategic opportunities, our founding pastor Rob Bell, has decided to leave Mars Hill in order to devote his full energy to sharing the message of God’s love with a broader audience.
It is with deeply mixed emotions that we announce this transition to you. We have always understood, encouraged, and appreciated the variety of avenues in which Rob’s voice and the message of God’s tremendous love has traveled over the past 12 years.
Bell’s book “Love Wins” questions the traditional Christian belief that a select number of believers will spend eternity in heaven while everyone else is tormented in hell. He has said he wrote the book because the Christian message that God is love seems to have gotten lost. Here’s the trailer for the book:
The Tennessean has more on the controversy:
Bell’s book “Love Wins” questioned the traditional Christian view of hell. Bell argued that hell was not eternal. He wrote that people could choose to leave hell if they wanted too.
That view angered conservative evangelicals like the Rev. John Piper, an influential writer and pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis.
Overall, many critics held the view that Bell was touting a watered-down interpretation of the Bible. Back in March, the pastor appeared on MSNBC, where he was grilled by host Martin Bashir who claimed Bell was “amending the gospel.”:
Mars Hill has grown in 12 years under his leadership. He has made online videos and written other books that have been popular among younger evangelicals.
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Comments (485)
KingDawg
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:47amUnless you read and study and pray on the Bible…just shut up
KickinBack
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:55amGrand Rapids is a nice town. If he wants to preach about no Hell, he should go to Detroit.
Report Post »LibertarianForLife
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:02amSo unless you don’t use the logical half of your brain, don’t speak? Great! We can go back to the days where the Earth was flat and everything revolved around it!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:34amhow much thinking does it take to believe in that racist atheist fairy tale of evolution?
HolyCrap
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:47am@Joe I think you meant ‘that racist fairy tale, the bible’.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:59amno that racist atheist fairy tale known as evolution….here why don‘t you list the ’lower races’ your racist savior darwin talks about…
“The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilised races throughout the world.” (Darwin, Charles R. [English naturalist and founder of the modern theory of evolution], “The Life of Charles Darwin”, [1902], Senate: London, 1995, reprint, p.64).
and what are those ‘favoured races’ mentioned in the title of your bible?
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:00am@crap, why don’t you show us all the racism in the bible? put up or shut up.
Report Post »davistron
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:01amDoes Rob Bell not read and study the bible?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:17amJoe1234, don’t go to war with them my brother. That is no more than those old beer commercials, people yelling back and forth at each other, “less filling!“ ”tastes great!” The people you are arguing against are meaningless, they are not scientists, they will not change anything. Likewise, you are not going to lead a forum Revolution.
Debate with love my brother, even when they spit hatred and venom back at you. We have nothing to prove to them, their own science defeats their theories and it angers them. Their only retaliation is to attack our intelligence. This is childish and shows that they have already lost the argument! Flat earth…No one believed the earth was flat. The Bible tells us it is round. The Greeks knew it was round. Every planet you can see is round. Flat earth is a myth. Likewise, won’t it surprise them when they finally learn that it is the sun and not the earth that is the center of the entire universe. Can I prove that? Nope. But it will not surprise me when we finally figure this out.
Do not attack Joe. They are blinded and cannot help themselves. Attacking them will just drive them further away. Bell is wrong, most are lost and will spend an eternity in hell. We know this, it is scriptural. Just get them thinking, get them to question their beliefs. They are not going to admit it in an open forum, but there are just too many loose ends to their beliefs. Show them the loose ends. With love.
Report Post »ME
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:25amI was forced to memorize entire books of the bible, still have the hand written copies that where my years of writing assignment. I forgot more of the bible them most people claim to know. The one thing I know it that when a moron say to shut up unless… they are insecure, unsure and ignorant of the bible. put that in your holyer then though pipe and smoke it. Yes hell it real and the road there is paved with good intentions and worked by many religions. The best lie in 99% truth you think the master of deception is ignorant to that??? That is why I only believe in the bible and not any religions words of man, mans words are 99% for his own edification. The fact that amazes me is how accurate the term “sheep” is, that people would follow a man like this is proof, fools to the slaughter. And yes it take a lot more faith to believe 0 x 0 = everything in the universe then to believe there is a God that created it. To the atheist and mathematically challenged evolutionist your faith is much greater then mine:)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:26am@troll…I get tired of the arrogant condescension of these atheists…so I tend to throw it back in their face….I guess I’m not that loving, but then you shouldn’t cast pearls before swine….
Report Post »HolyCrap
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:26amWhy didn’t Jesus help the dark skinned woman from Canaan? This was his answer to her. “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matthew 15:24)
Report Post »HolyCrap
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:30amDeuteronomy 24:7 “If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.”
Report Post »In other words anyone not of ‘God’s chosen people’ can be slaves, that alright. Sounds like racism to me.
trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:35amHolycrap, seriously?
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Do you even read the passage or grasp at a verse? The passage is about faith. But you would not get that I guess….
Report Post »dorcaslynn
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:36amI evidently was cut off from my last transmission. I wanted to say, I think people have more of a proble with never ending punishment than thy do with punishment in general. Jesus doe say there will be weeping an gnashing of teeth in Matthew and Luke.
Report Post »–Thanks
HolyCrap
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:36amWould you like me to find you verses about slavery and degradation of women now?
Report Post »Oh, such a ‘good’ book.
trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:38amJoe, yeah…I know. I am a pretty blunt object myself. That is why I am mostly staying out of this hell argument…I grow weary of it. People are generally going to believe what they want and unless you can get them to open their hearts to what the Word really says…I mean i do not doubt Bell’s sincerity and if he can be deluded this easily…
I am just saying that going to war with them is not the way. It will only harden their hearts. Sometimes…often actually…I have to remind myself of this.
Report Post »HolyCrap
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:39amFaith in a book written by many men, translated many, many times? No I don’t have much faith in that.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:43amNo holycrap, you do not have any faith in God. It is obvious. You just keep throwing up verses taken out of context and try to create an argument from that. I am sure there are plenty who will side with you too. It is okay. There is no debating you because you do not want to hear why we have faith in the Bible. You are certain you are right and you are here to rub our noses in it. The fact that you have no understanding of the thing you criticize is not going to stop you.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:49am@Holycrap
“Faith in a book written by many men, translated many, many times? No I don’t have much faith in that.”
Don’t shoot the messenger just because you fear the message. The Biblical versions commonly used (especially King James’ Version) are full of mistranslations and errors. However, ANY Bible you read will talk about Jesus’s sacrifice, His love, and life everlasting. The wording might differ but the message stays the same: you have the option of eternal life after death. You don’t need to take the option, but it is there.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:57am“Would you like me to find you verses about slavery and degradation of women now?
Oh, such a ‘good’ book.”
yeah you atheists did SUCH a great job in freeing the slaves…people like WILBERFORCE that noted atheist *smirk*
you mean verses like this…
“He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16)
that describes slavery in our country….of course slavery was different in the times of the bible (debt slavery, etc)
Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. (1 Corinthians 7:21-23)
so far the only proof you’ve posted is to prove your intellect is rather shallow….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:58am“I am just saying that going to war with them is not the way. It will only harden their hearts. Sometimes…often actually…I have to remind myself of this.”
remember, the Lord loved Jacob, and hated Esau….He hardens whom He hardens, and has mercy upon whom He has mercy…..
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:06amSuite yourself my friend. I am not condemning you, just giving you some advice. Sometimes a little grease is needed, sometimes it calls for a big hammer. The trick is to figure out which to use in each situation.
Go get’em tiger…
Report Post »Apostasis
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:06amI agree.
Report Post »meeknotweak
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:09am@KingDawg(Sic), Unless you read and study and pray on the Bible…just shut up
Maybe that should maybe read different:- how do I read study and pray ON the bible, and the shut up part; Not only are you going with a heresy, but now you want to invoke some freethinking of your own here, whilst throttling others? Maybe this Alpha Male’s knowledge of the Bible and the “Word” who authorized it, is skewed enough into to his thinking and understanding, that his “KingDawg’s”point, is humble opinion.
Report Post »Wow I’m rushing to join this mans movement right now.
joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:10am@troll…I think its impossible to persuade someone on a message board….
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:19amso basically, this fool has declared himself smarter than God.
Good old Saul syndrome. It is in black and white. It is not a buffet, where you get to pick and choose.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Notice the “all”, not “some”.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:27amYo Joe1234:
Report Post »I do not wish to jump on your back. I have previously mentioned the harshness in your posts. You then seemed to get mad at me, it’s Ok I can take it. The bible says better the correction (rebuke) from a friend then a kind word in deceipt (my own words). YOU change NO ONE. I change NO ONE. The Holy Spirit changes the heart. I understand your anger. Focus it at the enemy that puts the veil before their eyes. You attack at the wrong place. You speak many good things. Use the truth in love and that veil will be lifted. Jesus loved the man that drove in the nails. That my brother takes REAL COURAGE. I want to be like that. I want you to be like that. Together brother, we fight the same enemy.
MaruaderMel
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:30amRob Bell’s book does not negate Hell nor confirm it. It is more akin to Moderate Liberal Theological thought. In this is the error. This line of thought seeks to have God bow to the whims of man’s ideas. This is great error. Bible is correct on its teachings about hell.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:31am“@troll…I think its impossible to persuade someone on a message board….”
I know for a fact I led one person to Christ in a forum!!! Me and this guy were friends but hard core antagonists. We argued for 3 years about Christianity. One day he wrote a post telling a 3rd party I was right. Imagine my jaw hitting the floor! He later elaborated that it was my arguments that caused him to search scripture.
Yeah…for the most part you are right. Something else I have found, you are not arguing the person typing the responses to you. You are arguing for the hundreds, even thousands of lurkers who are reading the thread. We must try to give a good account of Christianity. This is why I say that in this format the hammer is not always the best tool. No, the atheist is not going to lose faith and publicly admit you are right. But…You do not know what kind of seeds you are planting. 99 out of 100 times we never see the results of our labor, we simply scatter seed. Every now and then God grants us the privilege of seeing the results, like my friend above. But most often these seeds do not come to fruition until years, even decades later.
15 years before i got saved I was a hard-core evolutionist. I remember arguing with an old lady at work about Adam and Eve. I made fun of her, insisting her ancestors were monkeys. She stuck to her guns and lovingly corrected me. I wish I could tell her now I was wrong and how much influence her love had on me.
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:32amIs it me, o does this guy look like a flaming ****?
Is there any wonder he wants to wish a way hell?
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:43amYo Rangerp:
Report Post »Don’t judge a book by the cover.
I remember meeting a man who acted and spoke like a gay man. Came to realize that he was not at all, never was gay. Had a wife and kids. Good family man. Became a friend…..foolish me!
rangerp
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:43amHe looks like a homosexual.
what else is he trying to remove from the Bible and christianity?
Report Post »This_Individual
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:57amHOLY, Understanding the full intent of a God‘s message loses it’s light to those who have not found peace within themselves. I have studied many religions (especially ancient ones), and have come across very few who can take off their “human goggles” long enough to see the shining light of the Gods. You don’t have to pray to any diety, but convincing others not to is not the answer.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 12:42pmtrolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:31am
Thank you for posting a very good comment.
Report Post »aint it grand
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 1:28pmThis growing belief is gaining popularity among churches nowadays. It was probably pretty popular in old times in towns like Sodom, Babylon, Jericho, Gomorrah… Guess it doesn’t matter any more to this generation of religious rejectors what the founder of Christianity had to say on the topic.
Report Post »The10thAmendment
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 1:35pmRob Bell…….bwahahahaha. He’s about as lucid in his day to day life, as he ever was in preparing a sermon. NONE AT ALL.
Report Post »The10thAmendment
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 1:40pmMars Hill church grew because of the message preached to itching ears removes the message of personal responsibility and pious life as the goal to achieve. Bell is a second rate snake-oil salesman serving his own master, Satan.
Report Post »scarebear83
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:35pmSo if people can “choose” to leave eternal torment then um, why the commands to preach the gospel if everyone can just choose to leave their eternal punishment after this life is over? You could just sin all you wanted to and when the time comes you can simply walk out of torment. This is what happens when one is either not knowledgeable about the Truth of the Bible or they leave Biblical teachings and do what is right in their own eyes.
Report Post »Black Manta
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:47pmUmm, where in the bible did God say you can leave hell when you want? Wow this guy is preaching a false Jesus…
Report Post »rose-ellen
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:49pmCome back to the catholic church and you you’ll have the 2000 yr.lineage going back to Peter[appointed by jesus] to rely on for theology.Stop trying to add to the revelation of jesus christ now contained in the catholic church.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:55pmRose-ellan writes:
“Come back to the catholic church and you you’ll have the 2000 yr.lineage going back to Peter[appointed by jesus] to rely on for theology.****Stop trying to add to the revelation of jesus christ now contained in the catholic church*****.”
Ha! That is awesome! You are a comedian now!!! Hahaha, I get it! ROFLMAO
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 4:12pmThis man is teaching a perverted Hell. Hell isn’t a place you go, it is a punishment and it is eternal. If this “preacher” doesn’t even know what hell is, I’m unsure how he can be of God.
@HolyCrap
You believe in a book written by Darwin or Hawkins. I believe in a Book written by inspired men of God. You read your book, I’ll read mine.
@Foxhole Atheist
If you dislike Jesus so much, why do you consistently choose to speak about Him. Jesus is nothing of what you said. Jesus actually loves you even while you deny Him. If Jesus wasn‘t God and had no power you wouldn’t be here trying to mock Him and ridicule Him.
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 5:06pm@rose-ellen
If Peter was the first pope, why did the deciples take Paul (after conversion) to meet with James? James was in charge of the new church in not Peter.
If Peter was the pope, why did Paul correct him.
“this rock” was Jesus. It was the truth that he would build his church on. Not Peter.
Report Post »wxflight
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 5:41pmExcepting Jesus as savior does NOT SAVE YOU FROM GOD. It saves you from eternal SEPARATION from God. (Love wins) Yes… Jesus paid for our sins on the cross if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth then you are “saved”! The bible says GOD IS LOVE. So, yes Love Wins!
Report Post »Bill Rowland
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 5:43pmMy daddy told me to never ever get in an argument over religion – you are not going to win but you are going to make a bunch of enemies.
OMG – Psalm 109:8
Report Post »christimacc
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 5:55pmEvery time I see or hear about Bell, the Spirit brings to mind 2 Timothy 4:3-4 “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Well, here we are, smack dab in that time. And it’s up to those of us in the remnant to hold fast to sound Biblical learning, teaching and living.
Report Post »Protoham
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:38pmI have news for you, we are in Hell.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:56pm“I have news for you, we are in Hell.”
YOU might be in hell, things are awesome here! But, I know my Savior. :-)
Report Post »imreddog
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:36pmSatan and the angels that sided with him and were thrown out of Heaven will suffer eternally. Humans that do not love Jesus AND keep His commandments will suffer the second death. The second death will be eternal. It will be as though they never lived. They will never be remembered. The Lake of Fire burns forever, but the Humans that meet this fate are CONSUMED.
Report Post »S G Applebee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:52pmThere’s one word that perfectly describes anyone who believes everything the Bible says is true….‘Ignoramus’.
Report Post »kanthonyb
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:07pm@holycrap
Report Post »Her skin color was never mentioned and you didn’t read the whole context. Keep going to verse 28 and then try again. Typical half-truth propaganda that one would expect from a servant of Satan.
S G Applebee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:10pmNumbers 15:32-36, what does “God” tell Moses to do with a man who is in the forest picking up firewood on the Sabbath? “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”
Deuteronomy 13, “God” tells us what to do with anyone who tries talking you into believing in another God: “You shall surely kill him”—even if it’s your own brother, son, daughter, wife, friend…etc.
In Deuteronomy 15, “God” tells us slavery is OK, but you should (not must) set him free in his seventh year.
Deuteronomy 21: 10-14, “God” justifies rape and forced marriage: “When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord gives them into your hands, and you take them captive, and see among them a beautiful woman, and you have desire for her and want to take her for yourself as your wife…etc,” “after she has mourned for a month you may go into her and make her your wife.”
Numbers 31: 17-18 “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
Deuteronomy 22:13-21, “God” says if a man marries a woman and then finds out she’s not a virgin “the men of the city shall stone her to death.”
Before space runs out, one for the ladies:
1st Timothy “Let woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I will suffer not a woman to teach,
Report Post »PASSIONFORCHRIST
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:57pmHell is ONLY MENTIONED 65 TIMES!!!!!!! MUST NOT BE IMPORTANT!!!!!!! DWEEB!!!!
Report Post »child of God
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:42amJesus didn’t save us from God he saved us from spiritual death
Report Post »thepatriotdave
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:07amProtoham
Report Post »Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:38pm
I have news for you, we are in Hell.
==============================
Then I suggest you move away from San Fransisco immediately!
scarebear83
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:35am@ Rose-Ellen, if the Catholic church is the true church then where in the Bible will I find rosaries, the saying of “hail Mary,” the designation of popes, etc.? If it‘s not in the Bible then it can’t possibly be from God but rather from man. That’s why so many denominations today because people teach doctrines of men and not what the Bible teaches.
@ WXFlight- Believing and confessing aren’t enough. Demons did this (Luke 4:41) and they aren’t saved. We must believe and confess but we must also repent (Luke 13:3) and then we must be baptized FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). These are commands given to us by God that we should follow them so we can have eternal life. Anything short of these or not remaining faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10) will end up being lost.
Report Post »mamachihuahua
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:58amYou know your doctrine is in trouble when Martin Bashir says that the “pastor” is “amending the gospel”! Apostasy anyone?
Report Post »Lux
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:59am@ RangerP
Thanks for pointing that out. After reading through all of these posts I feel I should expound upon the truth you stated about the meaning of “this rock.” I’ve study quite extensively on this very subject and out of all that I’ve learned an address given back in 1981, by an Apostle of the Lord, Elder Bruce R. McConkie, keeps coming to mind. His address entitled “Upon This Rock” (source of full address: http://lds.org/ensign/1981/05/upon-this-rock?lang=eng) is an Apostilic witness of the Divinity of Christ, and of the importance of personal revelation.
“To Peter, Jesus says, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona.” (Matt. 16:17.) How carefully and aptly Jesus preserves the distinction between him and all men. He is the Son of God; Peter is the son of Jonah. The Father of Jesus is the Immortal Man of Holiness; Peter’s sire is a mortal man.
But why is Peter so blessed? It is because he knows by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Lord; the Holy Spirit has spoken to the spirit housed in Simon’s body, telling the chief Apostle of the divine Sonship of this Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.
“Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona,” Jesus says, “for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 16:17.)
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:01amCont…
Then again Jesus alludes to the difference in paternal ancestry between him and Peter and continues his words of blessing and doctrine by saying: “And upon this rock”—the rock of revelation—“I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18.)
And how could it be otherwise? There is no other foundation upon which the Lord could build his Church and kingdom. The things of God are known only by the power of his Spirit. God stands revealed or he remains forever unknown. No man can know that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.
Revelation: Pure, perfect, personal revelation—this is the rock!
Revelation that Jesus is the Christ: the plain, wondrous word that comes from God in heaven to man on earth, the word that affirms the divine Sonship of our Lord—this is the rock!
The divine sonship of our Lord: the sure, heaven-sent word that God is his Father and that he has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel—this is the rock!
The testimony of our Lord: the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy—this is the rock!
All this is the rock, and yet there is more. Christ is the Rock: the Rock of Ages, the Stone of Israel, the Sure Foundation—the Lord is our Rock!”
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:02amCont…
Again we hear Paul’s voice: “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 3:11.) And also: Ye “are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (Eph. 2:20.)
As we ponder all these things, and as their full meaning dawns upon us, we hear anew the exhortation of our ancient Apostolic friend which says, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.” (2 Cor. 13:5.) And so we ask ourselves: Shall the gates of hell prevail against us?
If we build our house of salvation on the rock of personal revelation, if we build it on the revealed reality that Jesus is the Lord, if we build it on him who is the Eternal Rock—it will stand forever.
If we are guided by the spirit of inspiration while here in mortality, we will be able to withstand all of the floods and storms that beat upon us.
If we are founded upon a rock, we worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost.
If we are founded upon a rock, we know that salvation comes by the grace of God to those who believe the gospel and keep the commandments.
If we are founded upon a rock, we forsake the world, flee from carnal things, and live upright and godly lives.”
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:09amCont…
If we are founded upon a rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against us. As long as we remain in our house of faith, we shall be preserved when the rains of evil fall, when the winds of false doctrine blow, and when the floods of carnality beat upon us.
Thanks be to God that we, as Latter-day Saints, are founded upon a rock. And so it is that the faithful among us hear a calm voice of quiet certainty saying: “If ye shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. …
“Behold, you have my gospel before you, and my rock, and my salvation.” (D&C 18:5, 17.)
And so we testify with Peter and with the ancients that we know, as they knew, those things which flesh and blood can never reveal to man. We know by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
God grant that we may be true to Him by whose name alone salvation comes. He is our Friend, our Lord, our King, our God, and our Rock.”
The power behind his words is the same power by which Peter came to know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is my wintess in His holy name, even the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:55amYo Lux:
BINGO !!!
It was what happened that allowed Peter to understand what he understood. It was THAT principle, that revelation of TRUTH. A speaking of God to the heart of a man…fantastic, glorious and personal !
You should save that post and post it every time someone uses Peter as the rock.
Blessings… great post !
Report Post »UPSETVET
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:00amThe title “Evangelical Pastor” is misleading. I don’t know of ANY Evangelical, Bible believing pastor that doesn’t believe in the existence of literal Hell. Jesus taught more about hell than He taught about heaven. Does this so called “pastor” believe in the existence of a literal heaven?
He‘s a wolf in a sheep’s clothing. His intelectual abilities have robbed him of all biblical wisdom. IF he ever had any. I feel sorry for his congregation. If he was so wrong about hell he’s probably been wrong about a lot of other biblical truths and doctrines as well.
The church should send him packing immediately and then start repairing the damage he has done with his un-Christian beliefs. I doubt that the guy is actually saved and is in fact a Christian. If he is a Christian he’s an apostate the Bible warns faithful Christians to beware of in their churches.
I’m an Independent and Fundamental Baptist preacher and missionary. I’ve worked in Brazil for the past 38 years. Catholicism is wrong in a lot of it’s doctrines but even catholics believe in the existance of a litteral hell. I’m afraid that one day the “evangelical pastor” will find out that hell is real and, yes, it is forever for those who go there.
Report Post »black9897
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:25pmIn a way he’s right. Not in the way he says, but love does win. God loved us so much he sent Jesus to take our punishment. He loved us so we could love him in return, so yeah…loving Jesus and trusting in him for your only salvation does make you win. Idk why ppl think “love” is this feel good-everybody’s happy-we all get along-everyones’ right thing.
Report Post »3rdelijah
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:52pmAccording to the bible, hell is an event that will happen at the end of the Great Contoversy between good and evil. The idea of an eternal hell is Greek in origin and distorts the character of a loving God. Yes, love will win at the end. Love also means that you allow people the choice to accept or reject God. For those who reject God’s laws and His goverment of love, heaven will be like hell to them. God has no plan to bring rebellion back into heaven. In the end, those who choose to stand in the presence of God on their own merits without the righteousness of Christ working for them, they will be like fuel. God is a consuming fire to the wicket. At present time, the mercy of God protects us from His glory and prevents us from being consumed. Christ is coming soon! Would you be ready?
Report Post »teacherskj
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:29pmTo say that you read in the Bible that there is a literal place named “Hell” where God our Father and Creator supernaturally keeps us alive to torture us for eternity in flames because we did not accept his free gift of eternal love and life is beyond stupid, and portrays a picture of our loving Father as a vindictive, angry, arbitrary exacting mob boss…who we must serve not out of love but duty,…or else!…just the opposite of who he really is–but, just what Satan says he is. Where will the rebellious and lost go…to death. Like a match which lights but then eventually dies out and is extinguished by its own flame, sin -not God- will eventually extinguish itself and all the infected rebellious for sin and its infected hosts cannot stand in the full presence of God as with Moses on Mt. Sinai. The righteous will be changed in the twinkling of an eye so that they can.
Report Post »Faith1029
Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:05pmIf hell is not eternal, then Jesus death on the cross was all in vain. This is a mochery and blasphemous. This is all predicted that there will be false prophets in the last days. Do not look to man for their view of salvation, look to God. Read His Word.
Report Post »sambachico
Posted on September 26, 2011 at 1:08am“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins” 1 Peter 48. Notice it says a multitude, not all sin.
If there is no hell, then there is no purpose for Christ who saves us from it.
Salvation according to God’s own word and the New Testament is only available through Jesus. I am going to pray that he did not mislead his own flock at church down a path of believing everyone will be saved regardless of their action. If his congregation is convinced of not taking hell seriously, he has done a huge dis-service to his congregation which may lead them down unfortunate paths.
Since we are all flawed and fall short the glory of God, only submitting our hearts and minds to Christ can show willingness to acknowledge our sin and turn from our sinful ways. If you go to a church with a pastor who think‘s he’s a prophet or a new age philosopher – run!
Report Post »MichaelP633
Posted on September 26, 2011 at 12:08pmRewriting plain Biblical teaching is as lucrative as rewriting history. The flat earth and goecentrism came from the pagams and was absorbed by the church against plain Bible teaching. In todays world rational = atheistic. “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.” The truth always comes out in the end.
Report Post »NO-GODS-NO-MASTERS
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:43amIf the bible is true and not a silly piece of fiction? And all of christians say it is. How do explain this goodie. It seems to me God(who’s name is Jealous) is responsible for everything.
Isaiah 45:7
Report Post »I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
gsplgtr
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:56amGod, not wanting robots to worship HIm has allowed, in His love, wisdom and mercy, these things to give us the FREE WILL to have faith or not to. You see it ( the bible and God) is all about faith not facts. The scripture says tha without faith it is impossible to please God. This is foundational in both the Books of the Laws and the Prophets (Old Testament) and the New Testament. Sorry but I can’t prove it to you. That is not what it’s about.
Report Post »indy1
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:58amIf there is no God, why do you care what anyone thinks? You should be out getting drunk, stoned and have as much sex as you can until your meaningless existence ends.
Report Post »Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:59amIt’s called “free will.”
Report Post »MARCH4HIM
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:01amYep….he even created SATAN AND HELL ….The nerve of a SUPREME BEING…..
Report Post »doing what he wants….And Making all the rules….even Satan know this….
YOU SHOULD TAKE THE HINT…Bible inspired word of god….please read the rule book….
Walkabout
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:02amYup like someone said free will.
There have no bad preachers in a ll of history /sarc
And there no evil person would want to be a pastor (or a politician) to lead people astray. LOL
Report Post »Coolcat51
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:04amFor how can you know what Good is if there is no evil? You must have light to understand dark. You must have Love to understand hate.
Report Post »For ever action there is oppisite reactive. Univeral Law is GOD’s plan.
warner
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:16amYou need the book of Job in the Bible. All power comes from God…at time God allows Satan to tempt man, it is up to us to put on the armor and fight. It’s our decision to either turn to God or turn to Satan. Fath is the key…
Report Post »westtitus
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:22amYou serioiusly need to read the entire Bible before you pull one scripture out of context to back your comment which God sees as a man or women trying to justify their own beliefs. You either have faith or you do not. Free will, so it is totally up to you but there are consequences to every decision, even if you say I can’t decide you have made a decision.
Report Post »gotty
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:34am@ no gods-no masters
I am not sure what translation you are using, but you are taking it out of context. Maybe that is your problem; you need a better understanding of what you are reading. which brings the question; why would you read the Bible if you don’t believe in it?
May God open your eyes.
Report Post »jay01
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:57amThe context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.
Report Post »jay01
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:01amhe gospel is about an individual saying yes to Jesus’ offer to follow him and receive salvation, it is about the forgiveness of sin. It has nothing to do with social justice as it is promoted or practiced. Most use the word in connecting it to their platform to further their agenda. They don’t believe the gospel is focused on the message Jesus gave to forgive sin. Like the cults, they assign a different meaning to the words, and they add to it; works”…. “As Paul Proctor writes that “The social gospel and its increasingly popular “social justice” campaign is not an acceptable substitute for preaching repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Its promoters all too often set aside the vertical, spiritual and eternal issues of sin, rebellion, obedience, holiness and reverence toward God in order to redirect the focus toward more horizontal, physical and temporal values. In the end, the flesh is, for a time, fed and comforted, but the souls of sinners are left abandoned to biblical ignorance because disobedient do-gooders have spiritually sidetracked the Church and its mission”.
Report Post »Xyskalla
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:06amThere is nothing to explain because it is true. But “create evil” is a poor translation in today’s English. “bring calamity” is a much better translation in modern English. God can grant prosperity or bring us to ruin as He pleases.
Report Post »GENEPAGLIARI
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:14amIn the verses you quote and others you don’t (for instance AMOS 3:6) the Hebrew word “rah” is used. It appears over 600 times in the BIBLE and can mean any variety of things. From natural disaster to human discomfort to actual evil. And since GOD created man, and therefore his mouth, in that respect alone there has flowed forth much evil. But back to ISAIAH 45:7, here the author is generally interpreted to be making comparisons and is definitely discussing natural phenomena and human discomfort issues.
Report Post »The fact of the matter is that most people don’t turn to GOD until they become uncomfortable enough with their own particular situation. Therefore HE must make them that way in order to have them turn to HIM, the only source of salvation.
And by the way, where did matter come from?
fl-dad
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:26amCould you please identify which translation you are using that claims God creates “evil?“ Every translation I have looked up uses the term ”disaster“ or ”calamity” – quite a different concept altogether. Thanks
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:27am@Warner
“You need the book of Job in the Bible. All power comes from God…at time God allows Satan to tempt man”
You’re mixing up books. The Satan from Job does not tempt anyone; he points out that God gave Job everyone, so of course he has an upstanding moral character. So God makes a bet and lets the Satan (literally, accuser or adversary, and a title, not a name) test Job on God’s command.
The tempting from the “devil” comes from the new testament. There’s technically no proof that this Satan is the same as the Satan from Job, as the one in Job is an angel with a title while the one in the NT is “Diabolos,” translated as the devil. The logical jump is that they’re the same, but it’s never spelled out.
Report Post »Bullhorn Guy
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 1:08pmFL-Dad,
King James, American Standard, Douay-Rheims, Darby Translation, English Revised Version, Webster’s Translation, and Young’s Literal Translation all use the word evil. There are probably other translations, as well. I’m not agreeing with the original poster by any means, but it was a simple matter to find out there are in fact many translations that render the word “evil”. Christians need not get so defensive when confronted with things like this. Too often, when we don’t know the answer to a question, our first response is to say, “it doesn’t say that!” or something like that. If you don’t know the answer to a question, take that as an opportunity to study, and learn.
Report Post »Greenwood
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:53pm@NO-GODS-NO-MASTERS
God(who’s name is Jealous) Isaiah 45: 7………..YOU have the wrong verse but that‘s OK It’s Exodus 34:14
It means He is a God who requires exclusive devotion. No other gods
Report Post »Exodus 34:14 that says …………14. For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, who’s name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.
TH30PH1LUS
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 4:47pm@ NO-GODS-NO-MASTERS:
If you remember your history, you will recall a VERY powerful and popular ancient religion called Zoroastrianism. No time to explain here, but very much akin to “the Force” religion in Star Wars. 2 equally powerful gods: 1 good, and 1 evil.
Here you have quoted one of the MANY passages in which the Almighty declares that there are NO OTHER gods. He is the only one. And he differentiates Himself from all other pagan gods and religions.
God wants people to know and understand very clearly, that IT DOES MATTER what you believe (Rob Bell), and IT DOES MATTER who you choose to worship.
Report Post »scarebear83
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:43amSimple and to the point I think James Coffman gives a better answer than I could: “The statement in Isa. 45:7 that God creates evil should not be misunderstood. As Kidner pointed out, “The Hebrew word (for evil) is too general a term to suggest that God is the author of wickedness…Some see here an attack upon Zoroastrian dualism, with its rival gods of good and evil; these verses are also equally opposed to polytheism, the target of most of the invective in these chapters.”When God speaks of his creating evil here, he is speaking of the disasters and calamities that he brings upon the enemies of his purpose. “This cannot mean that God creates moral evil, but it refers to the judgments God sends into history. He is speaking of the distress and disaster which men experience from God as a consequence of their sin”
It should be noted that Isaiah 45 is speaking about the prophecy concerning Cyrus of the Medo-Persian empire.
Report Post »concernative
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:52amThe explanation of this verse is as simple as understanding some basics of biblical interpretation. First, the OT uses parallelism in many areas, this is one. If you read the first part it contrasts light and darkness truly opposites. The second parallel must have the same level of contrast or opposite and it does not. Peace is not the antonym of evil. There are 7 Hebrew translations of the word evil. In this context the better translation is that of calamity or the like.
Secondly, think about it for a second, what is our, mans description of “evil.” It is anything bad that happens to us i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah and the raining down of fire. That was G-d’s judgment and was certainly described by those who suffered it as “evil.” So many times evil is simply the perception of those on the receiving end of judgment.
Report Post »Notlad
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:39am“…to share his message with a broader audience”.
Report Post »So, his mission is about pleasing the masses and telling people what they want to hear?
Blind belief is bad faith, run like hell (pun?) from anyone like this.
jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:31pm“I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.” –Robert Ingersoll
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:32pm“A civilized society looks with horror upon the abuse and torture of children or adults. Even where capital punishment is practiced, the aim is to implement it as mercifully as possible. Are we to believe then that a holy God—our heavenly Father—is less just than the courts of men?” — Sidney Hatch
Report Post »MARCH4HIM
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:37amBell …That isnt GOD calling to you …………another pastor….
Report Post »Departs from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits….
If Gandhi didnt except “ the Christ”..? …YEP…..
And if BELL doent repent ….
They will both have alot of time to discus “the error of there ways”……
jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:30pmYou’re talking nonsense.
Report Post »mwhaley
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:32amGod made this so simple. Man is the one that makes it so complicated. John 3:16, That is it. Everything after falls into place. Jesus stated that straight and narrow is the path to Heaven, wide is the path to destruction.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:04amYou are so right that people complicate the bible. The question is why can/will they not. I think the answer is just as simple…….PRIDE
Report Post »It is this reason why God calls us to be humble, and is SO necessary.
mike4him
Posted on September 25, 2011 at 6:52pmAh yes, man complicating what should be simple. John 3:16 is a great place to start. Jesus was given so humans would not perish (die forever) but have everlasting life (live forever). Results of decisions in this life, forever fixed in eternity, some to the second death, some to eternal life. No second chances!
Report Post »mikenleeds
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:30amI think you should not be calling yourself a Pastor , your twisting and perverting god s words ..
Report Post »Gog s word and written to follow blindly , you can t pick and choose the parts of God words you like and dis-like
RRFlyer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:37amHaving trouble figuring out where to place your “S”es?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:20amappears to be a sticky apostrophe. I have a sticky comma myself…
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:28amHell is such an interesting concept in the Bible. In the Jewish version of the Old Testament for example, the Jewish people have no problem acknowledging that their translations and understanding of concepts can be wrong… and the word “Hell” does not appear even once when translated to English with that in mind. The closest one gets is the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.
The biggest issue? The King James Version, which translates all of these to Hell (or in the case of Sheol, “grave” and “pit”). Suddenly, Hell is everywhere! Nevermind that it’s not accurate; many Protestant sects believe in Biblical inerrancy, frequently called infallibility. That is to say: the Bible cannot be wrong. This is pretty easy to disprove.
Always a good idea to remember who wrote the Bible you use: it wasn’t God, but man.
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:35amNot pretty easy disprove. In fact it’s impossible. Show ONE error in the KJV and I‘ll prove it’s not an error. I’ve been doing it a long time. The hell described in the Old Testament is different than the eternal hell described BY JESUS in the New Testament. In fact, Jesus talked about hell more than heaven. The problem my friend is with your theology, not the Bible.
Report Post »Detroit paperboy
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:36amThe truth is , nobody knows for sure what happens after death .
Report Post »But i wanna be a good boy just in case….. ; ))
notatoomah
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:42amGod wrote the Bible, man was the pen. The bible has no errors, it‘s just that if you don’t have the Hioly spirit within you, if you don’t believe God is perfect, then you can’t understand what He has to say to you. The greatest triumph of Satan was to convince man that he doesn’t exist. The second was to get people that don’t know God to try to turn His people away from Him.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:44am@Squid
Are you saying Hell is actually used as a word more than heaven in the NT? That’s pretty simple to disprove. But here’s one quick example:
Report Post »“Matthew 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
The word hell is actually Gehenna. Literal translation is “lake of fire,” historical translation is of course the Gehenna, aka the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, site of human burnings.
Walkabout
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:49am@ Detroit paperboy
Taking Blaise Pascal’s wager? I know I will.
Plus the 10 commandments are good to live by. they kind of keep you out of trouble.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:53am@Notatoomah
I’m glad you can misquote things 150 years old (”The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”/”la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu‘il n’existe pas!”), or perhaps you’re taking it from Jim Carroll in more recent times. Either way, just an aside: know where your information comes from; did you know the quote was from a French short story and the devil in question is referred to in a feminine way?
As I already mentioned, the message of the Bible is clear. The words, however, are all mucked up. Translations, again and again, have distorted many of the views. Hell didn’t exist as a concept -at all- in the Old Testament. In the New Testament many versions of it are actually not referring to Hell as we know it… and many more not to “eternal” torment.
It’s all a ruse anyway, a carrot-and-stick for religions (not Christ followers) to control people. The message is clear: Jesus died for our sins so we can live forever. Know what would be an eternal torment? Not being with God after we die… and bam, there’s your Hell.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:00amI think that Gehenna is allegorical.
People are told that their souls will perish just lie the bodies of the children perished at Valley of the son of Hinnom.
But the counter argument is that the writers of the bible were one step removed from cave men & couldn’t possibly understand analogies or allegorical references made by God.
God couldn’t use allegory & analogy to talk to men. It was much simpler. Such as “Hey guys the trick is to bang the rocks together”.
Report Post »Seede
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:38amAt one time Sheol was a collective place of all human dead souls. The Hebrews then decided that if there was punishment for the living then there must be punishment for the dead. Therefore Sheol, evolved in their minds, of two sections. One for good and one for bad souls. Souls did not ascend to heaven till after Jesus introduced the kingdom of heaven after His death. The kingdom of heaven is theorized to be the New Jerusalem where the good souls of Sheol were then resurrected into celestial bodies. The bad souls remain in Sheol to this day as spiritual bodies. Hell is nothing more than the Greek understanding of the sections of Sheol. There are sections of hell according to Christian theology. Today the good souls ascend to New Jerusalem (kingdom of heaven) and the bad souls descend to hell just as Jesus teaches. All dead souls are spiritual bodies but only good souls are celestial bodies. Gehenna is a earthly location where all of Jerusalem’s refuge was dumped and not a spiritual location of dead souls.
Report Post »sdarbro
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:45amWhat about Lazarus and the rich man?!?! What you think that the rich man was just suffering from heat stroke in the desert?
You are rationalizing verses to make yourself feel better. But ask yourself this, if John3:16 references eternal life, then is there eternal death?
Report Post »Snorkelbacon
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:51amA.) I’m sick of people saying Jesus talked more about Hell than anything elses, this is beyond false The #1 message in all 4 Gospels spoken about is the Kingdom Of Heaven, pretty much every single parable is about the Kingdom of Heaven. Entire Chapters Dedicated to it.
B.) I may not agree with everything Rob Bell says but he has some very amazing teachings on christ and I wouldn’t start questioning his heart, he has questions and he seeks them out.
C.) I’m aware there are a lot of Mormons on this site, and how many of you are questioning Bells interretations? Might want to take the 500ft Red Wood out of your own eye.
D.) How many actually read his books? I did. Read Velvet Elvis, and Sex God. Guess what Bell never claims he has the truth he simply trys to look at things so he can ask questions. Does anybody think it is important that Gehena was and actual place outside the city, does anybody believe the original greek and hebrew words matter? or just your english translation. Gehena a garbage dump with fires that burned and burned filled with wild dogs that would fight for scraps and you could actually hear the knashing of teeth. I believe theres a hell but my understanding increaes knowing there is a refrence being made when spoken of.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:09am“This is pretty easy to disprove. ”
really, then why haven‘t you atheists been able to in all those centuries you’ve tried?
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:19am“really, then why haven‘t you atheists been able to in all those centuries you’ve tried?”
Hey, Joe the troll is back! Hi Joe!
1. What atheists?
2. Look at translations and find out the original words. I already provided one. Gehenna is not Hell. Neither is Sheol. Woo-hoo, proof provided!
I have a hunch you actually didn’t read -anything- and just replied based on what you wanted to hear.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:32am@Seede
“There are sections of hell according to Christian theology.”
… you mean according to the Divine Comedy written by Dante? Yes, there are. There are no instances in the Bible talking about different sections of Hell however.
As for the rest of your comment, do you have some additional resources I could look at? I’ve never heard anything in Judaism believing good souls ascend to heaven and bad souls to hell now, nor a time when this changed for the Jewish faith; from my understanding of the Jewish faith, souls remain in Sheol, righteous or not. And as far as I know, the Torah is pretty complete and doesn’t change; the only changes are undertaken by scholars who painstakingly research the earliest instances of their holy literature to make sure it is correct. Sadly the same cannot be said for many Christians and their Biblical translations.
Report Post »Bullhorn Guy
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 1:29pm@Locked,
Report Post »Actually there is an instance when hell is described as having at least two divisions. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus is at Abraham’s side (bosom), and the rich man can see him, but is separated by a chasm. The word for hell used in the greek is Hades. I believe this to be a separate place from the lake of fire described where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Perhaps a sort of interim resting place, prior to Christ’s ressurection? So, in that sense, it may be more like Sheol, where all souls go (or went) to await final judgement. There is certainly a lot that is open to interpretation. However, the idea that hell is a real place and it actually exists, seems pretty clear to me.
jonnydoe
Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:24amSquidvetohio,
How would you feel if I used the word “age” in the following manner. First of all I would use it as a period of time with a beginning and an end. I could use it for a very short period of time like 3 days or for a very long period of time covering thousands of years. Then I would also use the word to mean world or course of this world. I would also use the word to mean eternal or everlasting. If I said, “age of the age,” I really mean forever or forever and ever or for evermore. If I said, “age (singular) of the ages (plural),” I mean throughout all the generations of. If I said, “age (singular) of the age (singular),” I also mean for ever and ever. In addition, if I used the word age in the plural form, ages it means more than one age. If I used it as an adjective, I would mean eternity.
It should be clear to anyone reading this, that we would have a very difficult time communicating with each other if I used the word age in the manner I just described. The Greek word aion, which should consistently be translated age, was used exactly as described in the above paragraph in the King James Bible.
(continued on net post)
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:26amA thorough study of this word in a good concordance such as Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible will reveal that the King James Bible butchered that word. Why? If they didn’t twist the word the way they did, the doctrine of eternal punishment could not be supported by the Bible. So they took a word which simply means an indeterminate period of time or an age and twisted it into a word which can be as short as a day to the concept of timelessness, that is, eternity.
The fact that the King James Bible says that the Aaronic Priesthood is an “everlasting” priesthood when the book of Hebrews clearly states an end to it should make one think. (see Ex. 40:15 and Heb. 7:14-18) KJV has Jonah in the belly of the whale “forever” which actually ended three days later. (Jonah 2:6) Dozens of examples like the ones above should make one see that the King James translators did not handle the translation of this word aion and its Hebrew counterpart olam correctly.
Modern Bible translations have come a long way in clearing up much of the outright contradictions found in the King James Bible. But there is still more work to be done. The doctrine of eternal torment is what is at stake. If the translators render the word aion and its adjective aionios consistently as a period of time with beginnings and endings, then the teaching of “eternal” punishment will no longer find a place in the Bible. This teaching has been the main instrument used to hold people in institutional
Report Post »cdavis411
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:27amThis guy is a clown. A dangerous clown, but still a clown.
Report Post »gsplgtr
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:26amIf God was going to let all people into heaven…..1) Why did Jesus have to die on a cross for our sins…2) Why did God allow Satan to decieve Adam and Eve….and the list goes on and on. Once you remove one scripture from the bible, one foundational belief, it (the Bible) completely falls apart. If you believe that the Scripture is inerrant, then Rob Bell has trampled on the Holy Spirit by denying the Word of God. I believe that God will give Rob a front row seat to what hell really is.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:36am” If you believe that the Scripture is inerrant, then Rob Bell has trampled on the Holy Spirit by denying the Word of God.”
Now that begs the question: is it the message of the Bible or your particular version’s wording that is inerrant? I think it’s pretty easy to prove some versions (like the KJV) are horribly mistranslated. Claiming inerrancy for these is blatant lying.
Report Post »notatoomah
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:44amBlatant lying from your perspective. What you believe to be true, is true, for you. And nobody will ever be able to tell you differently, shame.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:52am@ Locked
Report Post »Some pastors or monks erred. So what. You latch onto that so fast that I believe you are scared.
Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:56am“Blatant lying from your perspective.”
Perhaps “lying” is too strong a word. I’m not saying it was mistranslated on purpose (thought it might have been), but that the translation is -wrong- is blatant. If you don’t care to actually know how the Bible was written when it was first created, well… I guess that is a shame!
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:58am@Walkabout
So what? So it means people are getting the completely wrong message. Following Christ is not a carrot-and-stick operation. It’s not “Hey, we’ll give you eternal life or torture you for all of eternity,” it’s “Hey, here’s eternal life. You can take it or leave it.”
Hell is dying without knowing Jesus’s love and not having eternal life with God. That right there is a torment.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:08amOne of my understanding of hell is divorce form God. that make’s you suffer.
An actual lake of fire, where peoples bodies are recreated after death and thrown in? that could work, but is not necessary. People are psychological beings and being eternally shunned would be enough to make most people go crazy for eternity. So the whole physical lake of fire is not necessary.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:24amYo locked:
Report Post »No it is not!
May people would be HAPPY about this,
they don’t want god anyway.
Thats not Hell to them… it’s heaven.
Hell is a place where ALL the GOODNESS of God is gone.
A place of no fun no music no love of ANY kind no light no friendship….etc.
They did not want God and in hell they still don’t.
Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:28am@Walkabout
I feel like we’re saying the same thing, as that’s mostly my view too. Hell isn’t a place of physical torment; it‘s being deprived of God’s love either through ignorance that God exists or through person’s own will (as we have free will, if we choose to deny God we aren’t punished per se; but if we knew God it would -feel- like punishment to not know Him). There literally is “Hell of Earth” for people who live like that.
Report Post »sdarbro
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:48amLOCKED: Where I disagree with Rob Bell is that he thinks that after death, the soul can STILL redeem itself before God. it cannot, or at least that wild policy is never recorded in scriptures. Once you are dead then your decisions are done and made. You then reap what you sowed in life. There is no redemption after death.
Report Post »JustJ
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 12:13pmJesus spoke in parables, so that we may be able to wrap our heads around concepts beyond our understanding. What “hell” actually IS isn’t described… what it’s LIKE however, is. It’s just dangerous business to buy into this idea that there is no hell, and this Pastor is walking a heretical line by leading people to the lie that hell is a place you can just leave whenever you want. Discussing what hell is is just symantics. Does it matter? Let‘s agree that it is a nasty place that we don’t want to go to. It is absolutely correct and wise to note that if there is no hell, then why did we need salvation? Why did Christ have to suffer and die for us? Saying there is no hell usurps everything Jesus died for. You, in essence, claim he died for nothing. I have to agree with Locked, that hell is a complete and ETERNAL seperation from God. No love…. no joy… no peace. No fruits of the spirit for all eternity.
Report Post »SovereignSoul
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 4:49pmApparently, the parable thing was a bad idea, since people are not able to wrap their heads around the concepts to which you refer.
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:49pm1 Timothy 4:9-11 – This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 – Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Romans 5:18 – Therefore, as through ONE MAN’S offense judgment came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, even so through ONE MAN’S righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life.
My question is: Who is greater, Christ or Adam? Whose “one act” had the greater effect?
Romans 5:20-21 – Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded MUCH MORE, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
May God bless you as you consider these awesome truths. This truly is the “Good News”.
Report Post »ares338
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:22amI have to agree with the guy. I don’t think there is a hell. It’s all semantics anyhow. We’ll all find out when the inevitable moment arrives in our existence. I like to leave my options open ya know!
Report Post »notatoomah
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:46amYou won’t have any options when “the time comes”.
Report Post »sdarbro
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:53amGood call, better start the Satan worship now, ya know, just’n case! Oh and don‘t forget the Hare Krishna’s also best to shave all but the ponytail on the crown of you head. Furthermore, just to cover your bases, better rip into some human sacrifice also. Time‘s a’wasting!
Of course, I do NOT advocate human sacrifice personally, but I have what is known as FAITH that I am making the right choice.
Report Post »ninja
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:14amHe shares the same thoughts and speculation of HELL that C.S.Lewis held. (Read The Great Divorce). Lewis was no theological lightweight . Taking scripture as a whole does not rule out the possibilities he ( they) offer. Hell ( whatever it actually is-as if we can even grasp it in total with the limits of human understanding any more than we can Heaven) really has no bearing on a follower. God wants us to love Him for what He is, not for what He can do for ( or to) us. God desires the best for each of us, forever & always. That some reject His love & gift and desire the consequences, whatever they may be, is their own foolish choice & I will waste no emotional or intellectual capital over them.
Report Post »ObnoxiousAndDisliked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:07amThe serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”
Genesis 3:1
They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”
Report Post »Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:27-28
ZAP
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:50amBelief also means obedience– Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Report Post »c.rozycki
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:04amRob Bell preaches his own kind of gospel, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ! He needs to read his bible.
Report Post »@leftfighter
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:36amI think that’s the problem. He’s reading HIS bible, not God’s.
Yeah. Rob Bell “quit.” I’m sure the reaction to his apostacy within his congregation had nothing to do with it.
Report Post »psalm33
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:21amAnyone who has heard him preach or actually reads Bell’s books knows this is simply not true.
Report Post »James 4:11-12
sdarbro
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:56am@LEFTFIGHTER You took the words out of my mouth! I was wondering if he was ‘persuaded’ to leave and find a larger audience?!?!
Report Post »@leftfighter
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:20pm@Psalm
Actually, I’ve read Bell and heard him speak. Even Satan can quote the Bible chapter and verse.
The problem here is, Bell has chosen to make the stand that a large majority of the bible isn’t worth believing in. If there’s no hell, why would God bother to send a Savior? What would he come to save us from? What’s more, he’s calling the Word of God (thus, God Himself) a liar when it repeatedly says hell is the repercussion of not accepting Jesus as Savior.
The bible (specifically the New Testament) is all or nothing. You believe it or you don’t, and he clearly doesn’t.
Report Post »@leftfighter
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:24pmActually, what Rob Bell says disqualifies him as an “evangelical” by definition. I wish people would stop calling him that.
Definitions of evangelical (adj)
e·van·gel·i·cal [ van jéllik'l ] 1.of Protestant churches emphasizing personal salvation: relating or belonging to any Protestant Christian church that emphasizes the authority of the Bible and salvation through the personal acceptance of Jesus Christ
2.relating to Christian Gospels: relating to or based on the Gospels of the Christian Bible
3.with strong beliefs: enthusiastic or zealous in support of a particular cause and very eager to make other people share its beliefs or ideals
Please refer to my above post as to why he doesn’t fit the definition… that is, unless you want to go with the third definition, which would include even Satan as an evangelical.
Report Post »Silvertongue
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:57amWOW!! I am dased and confused at this spew. The scary part is he’s a pastor and lots of people believe this spew. My Heart Aches for these people. Notice it was what he felt and believed not one scripture or any scred of evidence. Not that it is soe, but if im wrong and he‘s write i’m still ok but if the oposite is true……. I’ll let you fgure that out.
Report Post »kaydeebeau
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:06amEvangelical??? Not even close unless the implication is evangelical of the anti-christ certainly not an evangelist of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:02amThese are some of the religions that do not believe in hell.. Buddhism, Confucianism, Hare Krishna, Hinduism, Black Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Rastafarianism, Gypsies, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Vedanta, Agnosticism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ..Revelation/14-11.The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief. 1Peter3 :18-22 reads of Jesus decension into hell to preach the gospel to the Nephulem after His resurrection. The Jews believe that you are there for only 9 mos or so, I think to get the ones who need to be lined out. they have a very sweet view of the end times which everyone in the world will know YHWH and will worship Him in peace. When you read about them..you can see the ones who will have their eyes opened. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology
Report Post »GENEPAGLIARI
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:27amThe Bible warns about this guy and others like him in the end times. Matthew 7:15 talks about “Beware of the false prophets which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” And then there is Col.2:8 which you may look up.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 11:52amAshestoashes,
Just for your information Jehovah’s Witnesses have a clear understanding of the words Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna which, in the original Hebrew and Greek mean ‘the grave’ or ‘pit’.
The modern English word ‘hell’ means a fiery place of torment. Accurate Bible translations do not use the word ‘hell’ as it does not reflect an accurate understanding of Hades, Sheol or Gehenna.
This is why questionable sources such as wikpedia should not be quoted as a reliable source of information.
Knowledge trumps the mythology of misguided teachers.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 12:28pmGENEPAGLIARI,
Our Lord Jesus Christ always taught the truth.
Report Post »It is false teachers and apostates that have brought confusing doctrines into what we now see as Christendom. As a result there is discord, and many people are insisting on their favorite ideas and cannot see the need to go to the source of truth, Jesus’ words the Bible, to really understand through a serious study what the Bible really teaches.
They are conditioned to accept the false, and prefer to chastise a man if he accurately believes that our GOD and His SON would never torment a sinner by burning him forever in a fictitious “hell”.
The penalty for sin is death. – Genesis 2:17
4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 12:53pmYo Blacktooth;
Report Post »Are you a Jehovah Witness?
Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 1:01pm4truth2all,
Yes.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 2:46pmYo Blacktooth:
Report Post »Thanks for responding…
Why?
Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:55pm4truth2all,
Why am I one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Because I love my God and my ransomer, Jesus Christ.
The first scripture that comes to my mind is Revelation 4:11 – The true God deserves my worship.
And my Lord Jesus, the Lamb of God. By means of his obedience and love for his Father, and us, we have the opportunity to receive everlasting life in the paradise Kingdom of God. Revelation 5:6-10, John 17:1-26
Next time we visit, why not give a conversation a chance. We won’t bite. :-)
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 5:03pm@Blacktooth
Howdy. Can you tell me the major difference in Jehovah Witness belief VS Protestant beliefs?
My faith which is non denominational also recognizes Hell as punishment of sin. Hell is eternal in that the soul is destroyed with fire to exist no more, never again. Death is physical, Hell is spiritual. Only believers have eternal spiritual life.
Curious as to what else your faith holds different…Thanks for your time.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:09pmOkie from Muskogee,
This is a difficult forum to have such a conversation. It is better to talk face to face to make real progress in understanding each other. We are not a secret society/organization as all knowledge is freely dispensed and without charge to any sincere Bible appreciating person. That is why we make such an effort to reach every person with the “Good News of the Kingdom” in your town. – Matthew 24:14, 28:18-20
Report Post »Next time we call on you, ask your questions, we love to talk about the good things in God’s Word. You will find however that if a person is argumentative or prone to wrangle, not reasonable, we will discontinue the conversation to keep the peace.
You can also go to http://www.watchtower.org for plenty of information.
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:22pm@Blacktooth
The website really doesn’t distinguish between Jehovah Witness belief and Protestant belief. I’m simply looking to understand what is different in Jehovah Witness belief is all.
Being I live way out in the middle of the country, I rarely if ever get visitors. I must disagree in that this forum is the perfect opportunity to display ones beliefs. If you are uncomfortable doing so I can respect that.
Please know I look not to argue or cast judgement but was simply looking to see what divides your belief from other beliefs is all. Thank you again for your time.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:48pmOkie from Muskogee,
A major difference is the teaching of the catholic invented trinity doctrine which promotes the false idea that Jesus the Messiah is the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. – John 17:3
Report Post »This is incompatible with the Bible’s description of Jehovah God the Almighty. Also it is not compatible with the Bibles description of Jesus Christ who is the SON of GOD.
No where does the Bible promote the pagan idea of a trinity or three gods in one.
There is only one true God, Jehovah is his name. –
Exodus 6:3, Psalm 83:18, Isaiah 12:2, 26:4 (old KJV)
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:09pmBlackTooth
We are in agreement on this. Jesus’s baptism was a clear example of 3. It shows Jesus, Holy Spirit flying over Him, and God in Heaven speaking. Also Genesis speak of making Man in *our* image. Trinity is Catholic doctrine that most Protestants today adopted. Trinity doctrine was not always accepted by Protestants.
Okiefrommuskogee33@yahoo.com if you would ever like to share further your beliefs differences and Protestants of today. I look not to say your right or wrong, I just like to understand all different beliefs and Jehovah’s Witness was one I honestly lack knowledge of. Apreciate you much.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:34pmOkie from Muskogee,
For another big difference which is on topic, you might want to check out the posts from Walt G on page six.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:09pm@BlackTooth
If I understood Walt G correctly, Hell is spiritual Death, the death of the soul. Hell is not a place where one burns for eternity like Carholic Doctrine teaches. My faith also agrees with this and once again Protestant Churches have adopted Catholic Doctrine that a lot of Protestant leaders didn’t believe.
So there are two things I agree with you on….Yikes! Ha ha just kidding.
Thank you for sharing and helping educate me on your faith.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:17pmYo Blacktooth;
Report Post »I do speak with them when they knock. I however, do not agree with your beliefs concerning Jesus. I suspected you where, that is why I asked.
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:35pm@4Truth2All
How are you? I hope well. What is it you find different then Blacktooth on Jesus if I may ask? Stay safe and in the good book.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:02amOkie from Muskogee,
Just for clarity, to fine tune this point. You concluded and stated “hell is spiritual death, the death of the soul”.
The word “hell” means the grave or pit.
So it cannot be a spiritual death because to be spiritual requires a person to be alive.
A alive person can be spiritually dead but not yet physically dead. Only when they physically die do they become a dead soul.
Also, they cannot be spiritual in death because spirituality requires thought, and the dead are conscious of nothing at all.
Am I making sense? It’s late and I need some sleep. Thanks for a stimulating conversation.
Later!
BT
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:43amI’m probably not the best at wording this but I believe we do agree.
When you “die” your flesh is dead (physical death) and your soul sleeps, energy less, put on pause in time until Christ awakens, re energizes, resumes play in time of the soul from the pit, grave. Hellfire destroys the souls unworthy of eternal life. Soul dies, ceases to exist, Hell. (Spiritual Death, maybe better put soul death?)
I try not to use “hell” at all for it is used 3 different ways if I remember correctly.
I agree a person can be physically alive and soul be lost or lifeless but the soul is still there. The play on words is so frustrating isn’t it.
Is this the same as you come to view physical and soul death or do we disagree?
I too appreciate this good conversation. Thank you much for it.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:14amHey Okie:
Report Post »Doing fine…how about you.
I did not get into it with Blacktooth because… been there before. Nothing personal against Blacktooth. I believe that the bible very clearly presents Jesus as God many many places. He Himself said he was. Blacktooth mentions Abraham… Jesus Himself said; before Abraham I was. My suggestion to you is do some homework on the organization… I did. If your belief is that Jesus is not God, guess we don’t see eye to eye on this either…..still not my enemy, but your workin on it (joke)….blessings
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:29am4Truth2All
Humor is always good to add to lighten the mood. Thank you for it. Blacktooth does seem pretty respectful and I can respect you for trying not get into a debate you’ve already been down.
I would contend the Trinity doctrine peaches Jesus isn’t God or only 1/3 God. That’s a weak Jesus or less Godly Jesus.
My faith believes God is the head
Jesus is His Son and functions as God differently then God almighty.
Holy Spirit is the 3rd function of God differently then God and Jesus.
Jesus died and rose for sin, not God or Holy Spirit. If they were one with 3 heads, this could not be.
God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are one just as man and woman are one after marriage. You aren’t physically smashed into one person with two heads but act accordingly as one unit, each doing their part of the unit.
If God is one with 3 heads, one entity, who is “our image” spoke of in Genesis and why do we not have 3 heads if we are made in their image?
I appreciate conversing with you. You hold your ground respectfully but are willing to converse and listen graciously. Thank you.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:07amYo Okie:
Report Post »I think we agree… I never said that there were three Gods or three one third Gods. God manifested Himself in the flesh in Christ. Three aspects of God… same God….one God… three ways He presents Himself. Genesis…. “ let US make God in our image”. Must I explain everything to you backwoods guys! See bigfoot lately?
Thanks for the kind words….likewise…peace!
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:46am@4Truth2All
Ha! I told you Keep It Simple for Stupid (me). :-) No Big Foot round here!
I didn’t mean to assume you held the trinity, my apologies. If we agree I believe BlackTooth also agrees with us as well if I understand correctly. Either way a good conversation. Appreciate you. Laters
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:54amHell is nothing but a bedtime story to make children behave (and unnecessarily scar them for life. Good job, everyone.)
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:00amWRONG.
HELL is quite real as our current non-leadership courtesy sorocitos, satan and his minions are showing us. This is just the tip of hell’s iceberg.
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:04amHave you been there?
Report Post »Pics or it didn’t happen.
kickagrandma
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:08am~~ Oh, yes, I’ve been there, in spades.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:09amThose who act foolishly and demonstrate wickedness will become the sea of fire.
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:11amAnd have a totally radical dance party. C:
Report Post »Jack of Hearts
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:48amHell is a creation of man (or In Kickagrandma’s case woman). If she claims to have been there it was in her head. No true Christian would believe in the vengeful evil God who would condemn people to eternal torment. maybe she’d be happier in another religion – I believe Islam is becoming more popular.
Report Post »notatoomah
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:48amMake sure you remember to tell Satan that Hell isn’t real when you get there. Frankly, I think he will really be surprised.
Report Post »Jack of Hearts
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:59am@Notatoomah
Report Post »You poor sad, frightened little man – cheer yourself up, read the bible it’s full of really good news.
Luke21
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:04amLuke 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. (23) And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ (25) But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things…’ (27) “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, (28) for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ (29) Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ (30) And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ (31) But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
Revelation 20:13-15 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:07amI was terrified; suicidal even, when I was a religious kid.
Report Post »I became an atheist, got on with my life and haven’t looked back. Now I actually appreciate my life.
Luke21
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:11amMatthew 10:27-37 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. (28) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (29) Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. (30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. (31) Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (32) “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. (33) But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. (34) “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. (35) For I have come to ‘SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW’; (36) and ‘A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD.’ (37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:29am@DISCORD,
Sorry to hear that, looks like you were given religion rather than Christ. Perhaps rather than ditching the Lord, try Him & see that He is good:
Matthew 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, “…Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (30) For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
John 4:9-14 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. (10) Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” … Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, (14) but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. (26) And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:04amYo Discord:
Report Post »There is a healthy fear of the Lord, and there is one that is not.
The one that is unhealthy comes from the devil to make you think that God is evil.
It is also the devil that now tells you that “you are fine” without that evil God.
The devil knows you are not fine… the devil hates you because you are created in the likeness of God Himself.
The devil is tryin to play you. I know his B.S. he trys to play me to.
Even though I have put my faith in Jesus he still wants to keep me down.
He hates me….. and I hate him, and because I hate him I will expose him any where I can as long as I have breath.
Even in your Discord He loves you.
We all want some love
He stands before you, and offers it to you,
TAKE IT! don’t get played by the enemy.
HolyCrap
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:08am@Discord and Jack of Hearts
Report Post »I’m glad to see people using their heads and not following the words of an ancient, selfish, bigoted, racist book.
joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:25am@crap, post your proof…but you’ll probably slink away…..
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:01pmI appreciate your sentiments, guys, but part of my distress as a child was the nagging feeling that belief in a supernatural entity made no rational sense, and I had to constantly rationalize and force myself to find (pretty ridiculous) ways to keep myself believing. Eventually I realized that my suspicions that the mythical being didn’t exist were most likely accurate, and that I would be happy if I stopped trying to make up things for myself I would feel much more relaxed. This has proven to be true.
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:03pmIt was like a magnified version of when I was 7, and beginning to think that Santa Clause didn’t exist, but my mother kept trying to tell me that I was wrong at that he did. So..
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:48pm@Discord
I find your story intriguing to say the least. You find comfort in saying God doesn’t exist, which cannot be proven, and yet was traumatized believing God did exist which you believe couldn’t be proven. So pretty much you are still holding on to an idea that isn’t proven, just like Santa Claus. Shouldn’t you be as traumatized holding onto an unproven thought of no God?
Look at a clock or watch. Unwind it completely or take the battery out. The clock does not work as there is no energy to create movement. Now wind the clock or put the battery into it. The clock will work as long as energy is there to move it. That energy will eventually run out unless an outside source adds energy, replaces battery or winds it up.
Something had to start the clock, either winding it or placing a battery in it. 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us this. That someone is God.
If there is no God, what started the clock? Hope this helps you find God.
You are correct, Hell has been twisted and used by many to threaten their children into behavior. Hell isn’t where you go, it is how your soul is destroyed for not believing.
Have a great day.
Report Post »Discord
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:06pmThe way my mind works by default is to not believe anything definitively does exist unless I can see proof for it. It’s always been that way, but I had been trying to force ideas that did not compute into my mind. I’m more comfortable relying on reason, because that’s just the way I am.
Report Post »Thanks though. You are being very considerate, and appreciate that.
4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:35pmYo Discord:
Believing in the bible does not remove reason. My faith is not blind. Maybe you need to open the door that YOU have closed. Maybe you need to find reasonable believers of knowledge and wisdom.
There is a verse in the bible in which God says…. “come let us reason together”.
Report Post »God will not prove himself to you until you believe,
once you believe He will begin to show you the reality of Himself.
There may be exceptions to this… I suspect they are few.
I would love to talk (reason) further with you.
I will indeed pray for Discord to become harmonious.
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:04am@Discord
There is nothing wrong with thinking that way. Just realize believing something doesn‘t exist isn’t proven or something you can see and if you need logical reasoning, like most of us do, science 2nd law of thermodynamics is a good logical explanation you can see, especially using the example of the watch.
Thomas, who was loved by Jesus, had to feel His scars from the crucifixion before he actually believed. Thomas saw the miracles of Jesus and all and still needed “proof”.
We are to treat people how we want to be treated, regardless of belief. Just encouragement from a fellow human to not discount anything until proof can be seen to do so. :-)
Take care!
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:17pmOkie wrote:
“Wicked is burnt to ashes, ceasing to exist. “
How do you burn a soul? How do you make ashes from that which does not consist of matter?
Okie: ‘Genesis 3:4, “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:” Satan tempting and calling God a liar by saying you can’t die because of sin.
Which do you believe, God and sin equals death, or Satan and sin means you won’t die. I believe God.’
I believe God. Sin leads to death, death of the body = separation of the soul from the body (when the redeemed die they are absent from body present w/ the LORD); death of the soul = separation of the soul from God and all that entails (such as being cast into the lake of fire at the final judgment)
You on the other hand apparently believe satan – you shall not surely be punished with the 2nd death, you’ll simply be burnt up & cease to exist. You preach nihilism.
Or do you teach purgatory – are you now agreeing w/ the catholic doctrine you rail so against?
Okie: ‘“(Mar 14:21) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”
Jesus speaking of Judas. What does hell have to do with this?’
It has everything to do w/ what you preach. What is the difference from ceasing to exist & having never been born? Once again you appear to be of the opposite opinion of the LORD.
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:20pmOkie wrote:
‘“(Rev 19:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Are you saying Hell is the lake of fire? If so how is Hell cast into itself?’
I didn’t say anything – but the Word of God – which says hell (hades) is cast into the lake of fire (aka geenna – gheh’-en-nah). Apparently you again disagree w/ the LORD who does think it possible to cast hell (hades) into hell (geena). Your issue is w/ scripture, not what I said. You appear to be making God into your own image – making Him to conform to your own beliefs. You appear to have much in common w/ the teachings of your stated enemy the pope (nihilism, temporary punishment, etc.)
Okie: ” Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and soul both destroyed in Hell (death)…Not eternally burning…”
The word hell in Mat 10:28 is gheh’-en-nah – to be distinguished from hades (defined nicely by the LORD in Luke 16 – where there are 2 halves, one of comfort, the other of pain)
Consider Mark 9:39-50 Where the LORD 3 times quotes Isaiah 66:24 to describe hell (geenna – gheh’-en-nah) as a place where ‘THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.’
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:22pmOkie: “Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha … suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today. They did burn in fire until they were ashes and that burning was eternal as they still cease to exist.”
You confuse the literal cities of Sodom & Gomorrah w/ the souls that dwelt there. The cities were destroyed & the souls will face the judgment – 2nd death (2 separate events). Here you quote Jude 1:7 & it is staring you in the face & you can’t see it. What does the word ETERNAL mean? You can choose not to believe it, but the language is clear. It would be one thing if you were ignorant (simply in error) but you profess great knowledge and are dogmatic in your doctrine.
Okie: “Fire destroys the impure soul just as fire destroys impurities from Gold.
Fire purifies, it separates the dross from the metal (gold). If you burn gold ore does the gold cease to exist?
Okie: Sorry but your trying to use scripture to fit your agenda it seems. I’ll post scripture next.”
It’s the other way around friend. It is you that uses the reasoning of men & your own misread of scripture to support your doctrine. What you preach is dangerous because you tell the unrepentant that they have nothing to fear but ceasing to exist (& possibly a temporary fire). A lie from the father of lies. You would do well to take 4Truth2all’s advice & let scripture interpret scripture.
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:23pmFinally, Okie wrote:
Okie: “There are many more examples to give. And the Parable of Lazarus does not elude to a place hell at all, not anymore then trees can talk.”
So you call out the LORD Jesus as a liar? He gave the account & it was NOT a parable. Parables are stated as such. He said “there was a certain beggar…”
BTW apparently rocks can talk: (Luk 19:40) But [Jesus] answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
Thus, I have no doubt that God can make trees talk (and donkeys – Numbers 22).
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:55pmYou know it’s a parable and how that works. I won’t insult you with any discussion on that.
“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”
We no more go to hell after burial then we go to Abraham’s bosom carried by angels. Both are figurative. People in Abrahams bosom can’t speak to those in Hell. Figurative. If you claim this is showing hell as a place you hold it’s literal which is untrue. Knowing it’s figurative we must look at the message. Poor man in heaven, rich man in hell. Wealth doesn’t buy your eternal salvation. Your heart does.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 6:33pmLuke
I’m dangerous now. If you would like to hold a conversation respectfully we will.
“Sin leads to death, death of the body”
So does repentance escape us from physical death? No you are perverting God’s Word.
“when the redeemed die they are absent from body present w/ the LORD”
That’s odd cause Jesus tells me in John He will RESURRECT the dead souls. How does He resurrect believers if we are already with Him? Perversion your teachings are…..
”you shall not surely be punished with the 2nd death, you’ll simply be burnt up & cease to exist.”
Soul death, ceasing to exist is the eternal 2nd death. Perversion again by you.
Purgatory no, that is pagan. Asleep, non energized, put on pause yes. Somewhere twiddling my thumbs no. Good try…
It would be better not to be born, innocent, then live and feel eternal death, ceasing to exist. Your verse had nothing to do with YOUR hell.
I’m not in disagreement but you are. Hell (hades) is cast into the lake of fire, burning pit of flames. Are we in our bodies or souls at this time, souls. So the only thing to go to hell (hades/death) is the soul….After this there is no need of hell (hades/death) for the soul and hell (hades/death) is cast into lake of fire. It is not needed any longer.
I need not go further. If that is how you believe ok. I need not listen to your smugness when I have others who will converse civilly. Have a great night.
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:02pmOkie: You know it’s a parable and how that works. I won’t insult you with any discussion on that.
Actually, no I don’t know its parable. I know it is NOT a parable. I didn’t read any word even like “parable” anywhere in that passage. Please point out the verse. Jesus gave the account and said no such thing.
Okie: Flavius ”Josephus’s Discourse to the Greeks” first began teaching …
Is that where you get your “truth”? Josephus wrote AFTER the Gospels were written. Maybe Augustine read Luke 16 & Rev & believed God. Stop blaming catholics for all that you willfuly ignore in scripture.
Okie: I’m sorry friend believing Hell is a burning torment is more proven Pagan and inline with Pagan than Biblical.
So now you accuse the LORD of pagan teachings – that the account in He gave in Luke 16 was a pagan myth? He gave it, He meant it, I believe it. I don’t need to start looking to men (especially secular sources) for their opinions on that passage or any other (Acts 17:10-12).
Okie: Figurative again. The message is faithfulness to God’s word… Listen to Moses and Prophets, follow God’s Word.
Would that be the “figurative” word of God or “figurative” god’s word? Were Moses’ teachings also figurative?
Okie: To be straight forward with you in truth I tell you hell as a fire eternal torment pit is pagan that was then adopted by Catholics…
Okie: If I’m in error please point it out. Thank you for listening.
I (not
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:45pmLuke
It might help to read the Bible and understand how it’s written when doing so.
And he spake this parable unto them, saying, (Luke 15:3 KJV)
Parables start after this verse. Pretty simple. Did original texts have chapters…..We do know it’s a parable….And you did just show your ignorance…..
Lots of speculation around why Jesus used these analogies but it sure wasn’t to describe “hell” as a place….
Your belief is Pagan and I don’t blame Catholics but TRUTH is Catholics adopted it from Pagans and then Protestants began adopting it from Catholics. That is truth just as it’s Pagan is truth.
I’ve conversed with you before and it is now as it was then. You want to fight and bicker, that’s all. So enjoy fighting and bickering with yourself. Believe how you wish. If my views are so invalid I’m no threat to your views you hold as truth and you need no validation from me. Have a great night.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:04pm2 Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
MANY use this passage as a basis of “proof” that because it says “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” it must mean Paul is advocating life after death immediate. One point many miss in regards to this passage is the fact that Paul is commenting on the carnal nature of the people that should be “absent” so as to walk “in the Lord” as true and obedient Christians. With that said, do these next two passages declare Paul dead and speaking from the grave?
1 Corinthians 5:3, “For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,”
Colossians 2:5, “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.”
The meaning is obvious when taken in context to that which is written. To be absent from the body is to deny the flesh and therefore present with the Lord as we walk in the Spirit. Romans 6:6-8 put it ever so plainly when it said, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:”
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on September 30, 2011 at 11:29pmLuke 21,
Matthew 13:31 – Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens is like a mustard grain, which a man took and planted in his field; 32 which is, in fact, the tiniest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the largest of the vegetables and becomes a tree, so that the birds of heaven come and find lodging among its branches.”
33 Another illustration he spoke to them: “The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.”
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; 35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.”
Jesus always spoke to his listeners with illustrations, parables or stories. Your denying this does not help your credibility I am sorry to say.
Report Post »sbynyc
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:52amNot to be confused with Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Mars Hill in Seattle has no difficulty in following the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:11amWhich Bible? Might want to make sure it has the right words before claiming inerrancy!
Report Post »donh2
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:51amNo such thing as HELL…How do you explain Maxine Waters ? .
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:55amLOL! Right on!!!
Report Post »biohazard23
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:04amOr Obumbler.
Report Post »chrishw
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:51amI get sick of people thinking they know better than God. God is the one that makes the rules and He has His reasons even if we don’t always understand them.
Report Post »rickbob
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:50amHe has, apparently. accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. The Christian creed says that once you have accepted and confessed Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you are forever saved. So what does it matter what he now believes??
Report Post »c.rozycki
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:07amYou can’t accept Christ without accepting his Word. The Bible.
Report Post »gsplgtr
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:15amRickbob it is a deeper matter than you know. there are too many scriptures that state that salvation is NOT a once saved always saved issue. Read in Romans where Paul wrote to the believers in Rome “you have been grafted into the true vine(Israel). IF God did not spare the original branch, how much more quickly will He cut you off and cast yo into the fire(hell). Paul also wrote…”to those that FINISH THE RACE belongs the crown.” The imlication is that you MUST continue your relationship with the Savior.This “pastor” is now preaching against the Word of God which makes him a blasphemer to the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is the unpardenable sin. Jesus spoke of hell more than hHe did of heaven. Just look at the descriptions of hell in the Revelation.
Report Post »@leftfighter
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:54amLook, you can‘t know for sure what’s in a man’s heart or whether he actually is a Christian. There are likely millions of “small c” christians who were raised in the faith but have never accepted Christ. You capitalize the c when you accept Christ as Savior.
How can you have a good idea if your pastor is a “capital c” Christian or a “small c” christian? Simple: check for apostacy (meaning a falling away from the faith- I would expect him to renounce completely at some future point), or gnosticism (meaning secret teachings not found in God’s word) in his teachings. The two tend to go hand-in-hand.
Report Post »John White
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:38amI wish he was right. But unfortunately, the Bible happens to disagree with him, so even though he or I would like to see everyone go to Heaven, that’s simply not the case. I will say this: He’s KINDA right about being able to choose to leave Hell. Since we’re all deserving of Hell, we do have the choice in THIS LIFE to follow Christ, thus leaving the path to Hell that we were already on. I wish him the best, and hope and pray he come to full truth sooner rather than later.
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:49amI like how the story says he decide to leave the megachurch…..like he was thrown out for contradicting the Bible.
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:38amUnfortunately, “watered down” preaching of THE TRUTH sells big time. PC is satan’s great tool right now, along with lies which are his specialty….see current administration and “leaders” in ww unrest, esp. sorocitos and company.
However, back to the subject at hand, I suspect this man and many others “in the ministry” (the Osteens –sp? in Houston come to mind) will someday stand before our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST and hear HIM say to them, “Depart from Me. I never knew you.”
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:04amI don‘t usually kick grandma’s…but when they’re crossing the street I speed up….just trying to save social security for the children.. :p
Report Post »Miguelito
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:38amMy only question, is it in the Bible?
Report Post »qpwillie
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:59amActually, there are four different words in the Bible which are translated as “hell”. None of them imply people burning alive in unimaginable torment for eternity.
The Messiah used the example of Gehenna (Valley of the Son of Hinnom) which at the time, was the garbage dump for Jerusalem. The bodies of executed criminals were also thrown in there and they fed the fires with sulfur (brimstone) to make sure the materials burned completely up with nothing left. Revelation 20:14 calls it “the second death”.
Report Post »c.rozycki
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:11am@QPWILLIE – Luke 16:22-24
Report Post »22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
schmite123oh
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:46amPlease read Luke chapter 16. i will post the Hell part in 2 comments.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
Report Post »19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
schmite123oh
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:48am27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
And the best question to ask yourself if Hell is real. WHY did Jesus have to Die on the Cross then?? ReJoice!!! Dont steal The Lords Glory!!! Repent! for he loves us and wishes none to perish!
Report Post »qpwillie
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:16amYes, I’m familiar with the parable in Luke 16. I believe Lazarus rested in the bosom (heart) of Abraham, as we all hope to do while waiting for the resurrection and the rich man was facing the lake of fire (the second death). The parable can’t be separated from all the other Scriptures on the subject. We also need to look up the translations of the words and not put all our faith in the men King James ordered to translate the scriptures.
King James was an Anglican and his men knew they had better translate the words to coincide with his beliefs. Remember there was no King James translation from the beginning of time until 1611.
John 3:16 makes no mention of anybody perishing AND having everlasting life. It’s one or the other. I believe “perish” means “perish” and “life” means “life”. I’ve heard all the arguments to the contrary.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:45amYo Qpwillie:
Report Post »Why do you change the meaning that is right in front of your face concerning the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. God does not ask you to think what YOU think, He ask’s you to think about what He thinks. Whenever I hear someone say I think, I think…it means the are usually wrong.
Since you refuse to believe that parable here is another one more direct….MATTHEW 25:31-46 the sheep and the goats… notice verse 46..THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE. There it is right in front of your face and anyone else that reads this. These are the words of Jesus. they are NOT words of hate, rather they are words of love.
The love of Jesus does not want us to go there, that is the reason for the warning.
qpwillie
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:21am4truth2all,
I’m not going to spend a lot of time arguing with you. You seem to be claiming to have the mind of Yahweh. I only claim the ability to take what he has told us and conclude from that. Yes, I will say “I think” or “I believe” because I don’t claim to KNOW everything as you seem to be doing.
Believe what you will. I just hope your beliefs are based on the research it takes to seek the truth and not just what the preacher tells you or what “my church believes”.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 12:27pmYo Qpwille;
Typical… you falsely accuse me of what I have not done,and do not speak to the issues I have posted!
Never claimed prefection… nor am I interested in arguing. I am trying to reason. I gave you scripture that says what it says. Why do you still not believe this. It could not be MORE plain and simple
Listening to the teaching of others is wise and is stated in the bible to do so. I myself teach….so I do read Gods word for myself and indeed have found false teachings such as Bells.Who if Jesus was here would say to him …Satan get behind me, as he did with Peter…one of His own disciples.
I do function with the mind of God…. do you not know the verse that says we are to ??? Would you like to know it?
If you are trusting in yourself you have a problem… because the bible says ‘that the heart is deceiptful above all things”.
If I my… of what belief are you.. this may help clear some issues.
Again, I do this in love, not to argue.
Report Post »I am interested in the truth, and I am willing to listen to anyone in search of it.
However, I am also a Barean (not sure of spelling), because I hate being lied to !!!
I have spoken truth to you… and yes, of this I am sure.
I would say to you in kind…believe what YOU will….question is, is it His will ???
jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:18pmIf Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word “Hell” come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word “Hell” not found in the Jew‘s Bible which is the Christian’s Old Testament? Furthermore, the word “Hell” has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word “Hell” comes from the Teutonic “Hele” goddess of the underworld “Hell” of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be “Holy,” why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word “Hell” and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:20pmIf Hell as a place of everlasting tortures was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn’t God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone.
If Hell was real why didn’t Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.
If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, “Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there? (Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word “Hell” in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 350 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word “Hell” in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the originals. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:22pmIf Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated “Hell” thirty-0ne times, “grave” thirty-one times and “pit” three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King’s translators make some gross translational errors?
If Hell is real, why don’t the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell? They say they don’t believe it because it is not in their Scriptures. Most scholars today can not find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament. (Genesis through Malachi.)
If Hell doesn’t exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through “traditions of men?”
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:23pmIf Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word “Gehenna,” in the New Testament, why didn’t this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form “ga ben Hinnom” in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God’s response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say “such a thing never entered His mind” if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children?
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 6:24pmIf Hell was real, why did the early church appoint an avowed universalist as the President of the second council of the church in Constantinople in the fourth century? (Gregory Nazianzen, 325-381)
If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind?
If Hell was real and a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive? (Eph. 4:8,9; Psalm 68:18; 1 Peter 3:18-20)
If Hell was real and the grave settled the matter forever, why did the early Christians offer up prayers for the dead?
If Hell was real, why did the first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, contain the tenet of universal salvation?
If Hell was real, why did the first complete presentation of Christianity (Origen, 220 A.D.) contain the doctrine of universal salvation?
If Hell was real, why didn’t the church teach it until AFTER the church departed from reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, substituting Latin in its stead several centuries after Christ’s death?
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:59pmYo jonnydoe:
Report Post »Alot of stuff…..
If hell is not real, why did Jesus himself speak about it ?
jonnydoe
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:55am4Truth2all,
The examples I gave are concerning the “hell” modern Christianity teaches and what they mean when they use the word. Jesus NEVER used the word hell.
Jesus spoke plainly of gehenna and those in attendance knew exactly what/where He was talking about. He was talking about the valley outside of Jerusalem which was basically a dump, but ironically was also the same location the Jews caused their children to “pass through the fire” as a sacrifice to Molech. But it is a physical place you or I can go to today and see trees, green grass, etc.
So again I ask, why didn’t this same place, Gehenna, get translated Hell (with its modern meaning of eternal conscious torment) in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form “ga ben Hinnom” in the Old Testament?
God bless.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:03am@4Truth2All
Howdy! As someone who does call you friend, even if we disagree along the line, I would like to share one thought with you. Eternal is forever, everlasting, as you pointed out. I agree. Ceasing to exist is eternal, forever, everlasting. If your soul is punished by Jesus to never exist again, that would be Eternal Punishment as Jesus spoke, would it not?
Report Post »Luke21
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:56amOkie wrote: “Ceasing to exist is eternal, forever, everlasting. If your soul is punished by Jesus to never exist again, that would be Eternal Punishment as Jesus spoke, would it not?”
Only problem is Jesus DIDN”T speak of it that way.
(Mar 14:21) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”
(Rev 19:20) Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
(Rev 20:10) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Rev 20:14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 20:15) And ANYONE not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 21:8) But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:53amYo Okie:
I would answer yes to your logic, but I would also not agree that non-existence is punishment. I do believe that (please see below) Luke21 answers your question for me.I would add a number of parables of Jesus to that list and many other places in the bible that stand in agreement. I again would say to you let the bible explain the bible. (KISF) = keep it simple friend.
Do you have a problem with a “loving” God and eternal torment ?….seems many cannot come to terms with this reality and therefore try to explain it away.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:47amYo Jonnydoe:
What faith are you?
Have you put your trust in Jesus? Do you think that the bible is full of errors ( I use the NIV)
I cannot answer your question… don’t know enough about it… which means I don’t even know if you have all your info correct. I would take issue with a number of the items on your list but find them not pertaining to the simple issue of hell at hand. I like to keep things simple…..tends to not complicate the issue. Further it does NOT disqualify “a place” call it what you will; of eternal torment/ punishment.
Report Post »The dump…….. was it not a place of continued burning?
I will refer you to the post off LUKE 21 (above)… and say that there are many other verses, parables of Jesus, that stand in agreement. Matthew 25:31-46; the parable of the sheep and the goats, is a very direct statement of Jesus. He does not mention hell, but he does mention eternal punishment.
Ido not wish or want hell for anyone… but I also do not deny it because it is unplesant. It also does not go against the idea of a loving God
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:50am(Mar 14:21) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”
Jesus speaking of Judas. What does hell have to do with this?
(Rev 19:20) Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Are you saying Hell is the lake of fire? If so how is Hell cast into itself?
(Rev 20:10) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Just like Sodom is to burn eternally….Is it burning still today? Hmmmm…
(Rev 20:14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Again, how is hades (hell) cast into itself if lake of fire is hell?
(Rev 20:15) And ANYONE not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Just as those tempted and surround the saints are destroyed forever with fire from above. (hell fire)
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:56am(Rev 21:8) But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Fire destroys the impure soul just as fire destroys impurities from Gold.
Sorry but your trying to use scripture to fit your agenda it seems. I’ll post scripture next.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:29amThe wages of sin is DEATH. But the gift of God [is] eternal LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 If you don’t repent, you die. If you do, you live.
Genesis 3:4, “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:” Satan tempting and calling God a liar by saying you can’t die because of sin.
Which do you believe, God and sin equals death, or Satan and sin means you won’t die. I believe God.
2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Punished, not punishing. Burning to ashes or non existence is punishment. Burning forever is punishing.
Malachi 4:1,3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
Wicked is burnt to ashes, ceasing to exist.
2Peter2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
I think Peter clearly tells us what happens to the ungodly…
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:38amJude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today. They did burn in fire until they were ashes and that burning was eternal as they still cease to exist.
2Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Burned up, not burning forever…..
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and soul both destroyed in Hell (death)…Not eternally burning…
There are many more examples to give. And the Parable of Lazarus does not elude to a place hell at all, not anymore then trees can talk.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 3:10pmYo Okie:
Not sure who your last posts were to, I don’t like to assume, but I’m thinking they are in part to me and Luke21. I could take offense being accused of having a personal agenda and using scripture to suit that purpose.
Psalm 119:165..“Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them”.. a lofty position to attain to, not there yet, but closer. Be careful what you accuse others of, as I don’t believe that Luke21 has one either.
When a person commits murder and the judge passes the sentence of life in prison the punishment is not over at the passing of the sentence.
Atheists believe that when you die you die = done…. so, are you telling me that this is what you believe the bible says?… If so, then the atheists are correct… have a good time and die.
I’m afraid to ask about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man cause I just went through this with another, and he ADDED all kind of stuff that is not there… again I say; it is what it is don’t add to it or take from it!
That is not the only parable that speaks to this issue… what about Matthew 25:31-46 (sheep and the goats). I am not going to address all the verses that you list and that Luke 21 listed. Okie, you can’t just throw away the verses that speak of eternal punishment.
Glen Beck makes a statement that truth has no agenda… not really true; it does have an agenda, and that agenda is truth. I am 4truth2all here because I am four truth….searching till death.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:03pm4Truth2All
My apologies if my ignorant use of words offended you. In my view it seems as if these verses are being used to fit an idea instead of the idea fitting the verses.
“When a person commits murder and the judge passes the sentence of life in prison the punishment is not over at the passing of the sentence.”
Correct nor is sentencing punishment. Sentencing is ones judgement how they’ll be punished. This case life in prison. If it were an execution punishment would occur at death.
“Atheists believe that when you die you die = done…. so, are you telling me that this is what you believe the bible says?… If so, then the atheists are correct… have a good time and die.”
Correct, Atheists believe you die and that’s it. No I am not telling you this is how I believe. And Atheists IMO are not right. Your body dies (Physical Death), Jesus who is order by the Father over ressurection (raising of DEAD) will wake your soul, either first to Him or second to judgement (sentencing) of Hell (Soul Death). If you believe you, will not see Hell (Soul Death), if you do not believe you will see Hell (Soul Death). All bodies experience Hell (physical death) except the ones transformed at His coming.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:09pmI’m afraid to ask about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man cause I just went through this with another, and he ADDED all kind of stuff that is not there… again I say; it is what it is don’t add to it or take from it!
We only find truth thru loving discussion, whether you obtain it or I, I’m glad to seek it with you. I’ll post my comments on Lazarus Parable and you can share your thoughts.
That is not the only parable that speaks to this issue… what about Matthew 25:31-46 (sheep and the goats). I am not going to address all the verses that you list and that Luke 21 listed. Okie, you can’t just throw away the verses that speak of eternal punishment.
IMO respectfully, that is one thing your not grasping, Soul Death (Hell) thru being burnt to ashes is eternal punishment. Not living for eternity with Jesus is eternal punishment. Only Satan needs a God of a fire eternal Hell. God‘s punishment isn’t slow but swift and eternal. I don’t feel I am throwing away any verses but am sharing verses showing what Hell is that I feel your not accrediting in defining Hell.
Glen Beck makes a statement that truth has no agenda… not really true; it does have an agenda, and that agenda is truth. I am 4truth2all here because I am four truth….searching till death.
I agree 100%
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:58pmYou know it’s a parable and how that works. I won’t insult you with any discussion on that.
“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”
We no more go to hell after burial then we go to Abraham’s bosom carried by angels. Both are figurative. People in Abrahams bosom can’t speak to those in Hell. Figurative. If you claim this is showing hell as a place you hold it’s literal which is untrue. Knowing it’s figurative we must look at the message. Poor man in heaven, rich man in hell. Wealth doesn’t buy your eternal salvation. Your heart does…
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 6:01pm“And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”
Figurative again. The message is faithfulness to God’s word prepares them to obtain eternal life. “If they hear not Moses or Prophets and aren’t persuaded not will they if one rose from dead.” Listen to Moses and Prophets, follow God’s Word.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 24, 2011 at 6:06pmTo be straight forward with you in truth I tell you hell as a fire eternal torment pit is pagan that was then adopted by Catholics.
Flavius ”Josephus’s Discourse to the Greeks” first began teaching the Greeks in behalf of Jews (Pharisees) of wicked being conscious in Hades, their separation by a chasm, unquenchable, unending fire, and the Bosom of Abraham. In fit right in line with a lot of Greek pagan belief…Pluto and Socrates…. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas then taught the idea of an ever-burning, fiery Hell in Catholic Church which was adopted in 1253 if I’m remembering correctly. I’m sorry friend believing Hell is a burning torment is more proven Pagan and inline with Pagan than Biblical. I encourage you to research these truths yourself. If I’m in error please point it out. Thank you for listening.
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:07am4truth2all,
I am a solid believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. And while I do not believe the bible is full of errors, I do believe you need to dig a little deeper to find the truth in some matters. For example, there has been alot of scripture quoted on this page using the words eternal, everlasting, forever, etc. Even you used them in your reference to the sheep and goats. What many fail to realize is that those words, like hell, were never used by the original writers. The word ‘eternal’ is not a scriptural word. Unfortunately, our English bibles were not translated from the Greek, but rather from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate (380 AD), and this is where the trouble begins.
The word was/is “aeon”, or it’s adjective “aeonian” or transliterated, “eon”. And if you’ll look up that word in any honest dictionary or concordance, it will tell you that eon is a ‘time’ word that has a beginning and an end. Other translations use the word “age” or “age-during”. So the verse you quoted should read: “And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (Matt 25:46)
I know this seems to be somewhat off the subject of hell, but it’s not. If you look deeply you will find that alot of what we have been taught is not what scripture actually teaches. I encourage you to step out and begin this journey into the scriptures with an open mind.
A great article concerning eternity:
Report Post »http://thedifferentiator
jonnydoe
Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:16amIt seems my link at the end was cut off. Although I do recommend the entire site (it’s a massive amount of articles, but well worth your time) the link I posted was specific. It’s called “Whence Eternity?” by Alexander Thomson and it plainly shows how and where this word made its way into modern theology. It’s quite long, but again, I do encourage you to check it out, as well as the other articles on the site.
God Bless.
http://thedifferentiator.net/wnetern.html
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 26, 2011 at 9:07amYo Jonnydoe:
Report Post »Don’t know if you will follow the story to this page; if so, thanks for getting back to me. I had to remove some characters to prevent going into a second page. I had removed .. ( just having a cup of coffee)
after I asked the few presonal questions concerning your belief/faith. The reason being I don’t like being “talked at”, not that you were, but it is easy to do on sites like this. I was glad to hear of your faith. I did begin to read the article in the link you posted. I think you are trying to give me a taste of hell….as I find this kind of reading hard, but God is moving me into other areas of learning, so I do appreciate your reply. I got about half way through and will finish it today–day off. At this point it’s kind of like the idea of having 10 people in a line and you tell the first person something and by the time it gets to the last person it is completely different. Once I read it I will double check it with some friends. Again, thanks….blessings!
4truth2all
Posted on September 26, 2011 at 9:13amYo Okie:
Report Post »I did want to respond to your last couple of postings, but for a couple of reasons I am holding my tongue.
Just thinking….can you imagine how long it would take in the 1500′s or what ever, for 2 people to hold a long distance conversation by sending a letter at a time.Will be in touch buy E-mail…peace!
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 26, 2011 at 10:29pm4Truth2All
I totally understand my friend. I do want you to know I enjoy speaking with you. You are respectful, blunt, and hold your belief until God’s word shows you different. I respect that much. Look forward to hearing from you. Peace put!
Report Post »jonnydoe
Posted on September 26, 2011 at 11:46pm4truth2all,
First of all, thank you for taking the time to respond and to actually read and consider the link and what’s been said. Many folks simply shut down when their beliefs/traditions are questioned. Congratulations, you have gone further than most will go, lol.
Secondly, I had to laugh at your comment about a “taste of hell”. I admit, some of Alexander Thomson’s writings can be quite difficult. I sometimes have to read them more than once for it to sink in, but they are worth the trouble. I encourage you to continue.
And lastly, I will refer you to an excellent site where alot of the reading is a little less difficult, but they also have the in depth articles (and full books) if you’d like.
The site is:
http://www.tentmaker.org
And the more in-depth part of the site is:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
I will continue to check back in here from time to time.
Report Post »God Bless.
4truth2all
Posted on September 29, 2011 at 1:03pmYo Jonnydoe:
Report Post »I case you check again….made it through hell.
Went to the Tentmaker site… read the explanation of Universalism and went through and copied15 pages most of which are verses in defence of.
Listened to about 2hrs of video.
Double checked facts with another will triple check with another.
Having a hard time being in agreement with the verses defending Universalism.
Having a harder time with the idea that everybody gets to heaven… even Hitler as debated.Believe this idea goes against ENTIRE bible.
Blessings…
TH30PH1LUS
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:37amI‘ll take Jesus’ word over Rob Bell any day.
Rob, repent of your heresy and return to the truth.
Report Post »NealPatrick
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:33am2 Peter 3: 3-9 – Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For [a]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Report Post »Non-regulator
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:45amHeresy is not love.
Report Post »GENEPAGLIARI
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:30amAmen
Report Post »SpankDaMonkey
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 7:31am.
Report Post »At the very last moment of one’s life, the Good Book say’s all you have to do is reach out your hand, ask to be forgiven and believe…………
JustPeachy
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:39amAre you banking on “that very last moment,” Spank? How do you know for sure you or anyone would be given that, after been given so many more during one’s lifetime?
And if one waits until “that very last moment,“ is it genuine faith or simply a way to ”save one’s skin?”
God also wants His own to spend their lives in trust and obedience to Him. (The “Good Book” indeed DOES say that.)
Are you sure the “Good Book” says what you think it does? Can you quote the verses?
Report Post »MARCH4HIM
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:52amNot everyone gets that moment…
Thats why you alway have to be in tune with the lord (Jesus)…
Narrow is the way….
A person can have hope….That a person is right with the lord…
But when you think of ( example ) “ J F K ” ……
We do not know the condition of a mans heart ?
But God does…..
Report Post »SpankDaMonkey
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:56am.
Report Post »No I’m not banking on the last moment. But it’s there if one needs it. Look at the thives along side Jesus on the cross……….
OUTRIDER WRITER
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 9:11am@SPANK
Report Post »Not quite. You must know WHAT you are believing. Tons of people who raised their hands thinking God grabbed it to pull them into Heaven will be disappointed when they discover God’s plan has requirements:
..
Acknowledgment that you were born dead in your sin and have ZERO hope of extracting yourself from your birthright of hell as your final destination.
..
That payment of your sin requires a substitute death that pardons your sentence of belonging to hell, and that Christ is the only one who qualifies as a substitute.
..
That Christ, Son of God and perfect in every way, gave Himself to becoming a man in flesh and allowed Himself to become a sacrifice, which is your personal pardon and immediate entrance into God’s spiritual Kingdom.
…
That Christ’s physical (man in flesh) death did not end in death. Christ was resurrected and lives today. Had Christ not conquered death, there’d be no pardon, and he’d be no more “god” than every prophet who has died before Him or since Him.
…
That believing these events and believing in Christ’s promise is sufficient for salvation. It’s pure grace and undeserved mercy. No one can pedal good works as a substitute for Christ’s own death. Being “good” is not good enough.
…
If you are a follower of Christ and are living in His Kingdom, all will know this because of how you live and how you love others. If you are known as a turd, are hateful, deceitful, or don’t walk the talk, you best re-evaluate where you
woodyl1011fl
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 10:17amThe problem with that is you never know when that last second is upon you!
Report Post »JustPeachy
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 3:22pmSpanky one of the thieves recognized Jesus as the Son of God and to him Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” With the other one, no such thing was recorded.
But that does NOT guarantee EVERY person on the planet has an opportunity just before he dies to accept Christ as his Lord and Savior. To think so is presuming on God!
God wants us to accept Him–as He is–willingly, etc. Isn’t that how we want others to love US? Do others love us when they say, “OK, I’ll love you, but only after I can change this or that about you.” Is that true love???
And He desires an actual relationship with us–now–in this life. How much of a relationship can we have with someone we just met moments before we die?
And if we only cry out to him to save our skins at the end–it’s all about us, isn’t it? Save my sorry butt even though I had NOTHING to do with you all my life! Not saying God wouldn’t do it (if the person really desired to be with God) but how selfish.
Report Post »