Hell-Questioning Pastor Rob Bell Says New Book Has Led Him to ‘Profound Brokenness’
- Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:00am by
Jonathon M. Seidl
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Bell's recently-released book.
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Evangelical megachurch pastor Rob Bell said he did not anticipate the firestorm he would stir with his book that questions the traditional Christian belief that a select number of believers will spend eternity in heaven while everyone else is tormented in hell.
Bell said Tuesday that he not only didn’t set out to be controversial, he had no idea his best seller, “Love Wins,” would bring condemnation from people like Southern Baptist Seminary President Albert Mohler, who claims Bell is leading people astray.
“The last couple of weeks have been most painful in my life,” the pastor from Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., told a crowd of about 1,600 at Nashville’s Belmont University on Tuesday after an audience member asked him about the criticism he has faced. “It has taken me to a place of profound brokenness.”
But he said that with God’s help he has been able to learn and grow from the experience.
Even before the book was published last month, religious leaders and their followers were branding it heresy, hailing it as a breakthrough or landing somewhere in the middle. Thousands have commented good and bad on Twitter, Facebook, blogs or outside their churches.
Bell said he wrote the book because the Christian message that God is love seems to have gotten lost.
“Is first thing that comes to mind when you hear the world Christian, is the first thing you hear, ‘Oh those are the people who never stop talking about God’s love?’ Or are we known for some other things?” he asked the crowd.
“I kept meeting religious people who were incredibly dogmatic about heaven and hell when you die but didn’t seem to care about the fact that 800,000,000 people will go to bed hungry tonight.”
He said that what he called “evacuation theology,“ or the idea that ”Jesus is your ticket to somewhere else,” is dangerous because it can cause people to miss Christ’s message about how to live in such harmony with God that you are creating a heaven on Earth.
“Jesus taught his disciples to pray, not ‘God, beam me up,‘ but ’Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,’” Bell said.
In fact, Jesus didn’t talk much about the afterlife at all, he says.
“Jesus comes and announces the action is here and the action is now,” Bell said.
His 10,000-member Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., has grown significantly under his leadership. He has made online videos and written other books that have been popular among younger evangelicals.
For many traditional Christians, Bell’s book sounds a lot like universalism — a heresy for many churches. It teaches that everyone, regardless of belief, will be saved by God. They argue that misleads people about the reality of the Christian faith. Bell has said he doesn’t teach universalism.
He says hell is something freely chosen that already exists on earth.
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Comments (512)
MaggieRose
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:11amThank you! My faith IS simple… child-like, even… I choose to sit at Jesus’ feet and worship Him the best I can while here on earth, and tell others about His love and what it has meant to me and how it has changed me. I can’t wait to see Him face-to-face someday, and tell Him “thank you.” Simple? You bet.
Report Post »ronmorgen
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:05amWhen Jesus returns we will all stand before judgment. Our justification will be based on our faith, and it’s resultant works. If we are found to have faith we will escape the judgment we deserved. All others will be condemned. It was their choice to reject God’s authority.
Report Post »RevDarwinEllis
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:32amOur justification will be in our confession of Jesus and Him Crucified. Our justification of faith, but faith in what? Faith in his payment at the cross. Period
Report Post »observer6
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:04amI saw Bell on Fox and Friends yesterday. He professed a faith in orthodox Christianity. “For God so loved the world he sent Jesus…” Before this I‘d heard of him in passing but I really didn’t know much. There was nothing he said on that morning show I didn’t agree with. And to be honest it’s not new. I’m old enough to have heard this particular philosophy years ago in an Episcopal Church. The Kingdom of Heaven is on earth NOW. It’s just through a glass darkly.
1 Corinthians
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And Glenn Beck’s favorite
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Report Post »conservativeme
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:04amFolks, I’ve got news. The “belief that a select number of believers will spend eternity in heaven while everyone else is tormented in hell” is NOT traditional Christian belief. In fact, it’s nowhere to be found in the scriptures! Read the Word and learn folks!
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:29amMat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Sheesh, that is off the top of my head. I do not want to even get started on the “hell” verses such as Mat. 25:46, Rev. 20:15…
Are you kidding?
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:47pm@Conservativeme,
It appears that you conservatively read your Bible, as Trolltrainer aptly pointed out. Although your advice in your closing is right-on, you have not followed your own advice.
Report Post »RevDarwinEllis
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:00amOk I will keep it to a few because you are simple. Matt. 5:29 If your eye causes you to sin pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is more profitable for you, that one of your members perish than for the “WHOLE BODY TO BE CAST INTO HELL” VERSE 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for the whole body to be “CAST INTO HELL” Is that enough or do you need more because there are dozens of verse concerning hell if you really care instead of trying to justify your sin!
Report Post »ChiefGeorge
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:37pmYes indeed he warned of it often and the reason being he wants no one to go there. Imagine a place of eternal separation from anything good period? Its easy if you try, just think of the worst terror you can imagine and there you have it, but every second with no measure of time, trapped with no way to escape because you have no real body but a soul.
We live in a world of hope for a better day and some times that day comes around and we are happy for it and then still other times things really suck, but there is still hope once again. In hell there will be no such hope for it will be too late for a second chance to know God. God wants to connect with us…here…his creation through faith…he rewards that faith with something special in the end reserved for those who Love him the unseen but seen God of all time and eternity.
Take it from the man who died and went to an empty place void of nothing he found himself asking God what he would have to do in order not to return to this place. The reply was simple….Get to Know Me!
Report Post »FossilJen
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 5:07pmWow, I just make a post regarding ‘religion snobs’ and you drop in my lap! I would have to assume that means you are on par with ‘the unmentionable one’ as speaking of you brings you to the surface to cause more dissent! I will bear that in mind!
Report Post »mrjansanman
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:57amIn the Bible hell is translated from the Greek word hades, and the Hebrew word sheol. The original meaning of those words means the grave. The “traditional religions of christendom” have painted Almighty God as a cruel sadistic God that would torment people forever. All people that die do go to hell (the grave), but they are not tormented forever with fire and pitchforks. Romans 6:23 says: “that the wages sin pays is death.”If we die we have paid our debt of sin. But at the same time the Bible does not teach that all will go to heaven when they die. Eccl.9:5 says that the dead are not conscious of anything. John 5:28, 29 shows there will be a resurrection of righteous and unrighteous. God is just and loving.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 3:27pmYou must be of the JW persuasion?
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 6:07pmWatch,
There are millions of us. We are everywhere preaching the good news of God’s Kingdom.
Report Post »Matthew 28:18-20, 24:14
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 6:30pm@ WHITE…….hello friend I meant no disrespect truly I just would appreciate if people would state where they are coming from so that people aren’t left guessing or wondering. That is all I ask in the spirit of full disclosure and honest
Report Post »mrjansanman
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:54pmYes
Report Post »teapartychristiannc
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:57am144,000 will be chosen to sit at the right hand of Jesus. The others will live in pardise on earth, and the ones of whom cannot be changed will cease to exist
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:12amYou are repeating yourself!
Tell you what, YOU back that up for me, kay?
I want to see some Scripture.
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 6:03pmtrolltrainer,
Report Post »If everyone goes to either heaven or hell, then who is going to live forever on earth?
Psalms 37:10-11, 29
usually_right
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:55am“The last couple of weeks have been most painful in my life,”
That’s nothing compared to how your followers will feel as they spend eternity in hell because they listened to you tickling their ears.
Report Post »BRAVEHEART
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:08amRight again! Usually Right.
Report Post »teapartychristiannc
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:55am144,000 will go to heaven and sit at Jesus’s right side while the rest of us will live in pardise or earth and the others that cannot change will cease to exsist.
Report Post »jedi.kep
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:23amAhhh. A JW.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:10amBut the 144,000 are Jews!
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
UNLESS! There is ANOTHER 144,000! (insert rollyeyes emoticon of your choice).
John 14:2…
Forget it…believe as you wish…I will stick with the Bible. :-)
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 4:32pmThe Mormons, I being one, believe that the 144,000 are simply leaders, not the only ones making it to heaven. If you read revelations carefully, you will note that there are twelve gates into the kingdom or city of heaven. Each gate is referred to as being “like unto a pearl”. That is where the popular saying of pearly gates comes from. However, it is not one set of gates but twelve individual gates that lead into heaven. Each gate is named or labeled after one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 is composed of 12,000 members of each of the twelve tribes of Israel. They are not all Jews as TrollTrainer says. They are all members, however, of Israel. Christ taught the concept of being adopted into the house of Israel. It is through one of those tribes gates that every person that enters heaven goes through.
Read Romans 9:4 and the surrounding scriptures to get a more complete picture of adoption.
9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
In any case, in the end, Christ will appoint 144,000 leaders to a specific task and or leadership role, but the number that enter heaven are not limited to this same number.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 5:43pmHmmm…I think in this case I will simply let the Scripture I quoted from Revelation speak for itself. You want to add the condition of adoption to make this say something different. I see no indication that this is the case.
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 5:49pmjedi.kep,
A person does not have to be a JW to understand that only 144,000 will be resurrected to be with Christ in heaven. It is a clear teaching of the Bible.
I do not think teapartychristian is a JW.
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 5:54pmRevelation chapter 7 and 14 identify the anointed followers who will serve as priests and kings in God’s Kingdom, the Kingdom we pray for. Revelation 5:9-10, Matthew 6:9-10
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:08pmtrolltrainer,
Revelation 7:4-8 at first glance may lead many to think the list is of the tribes of fleshly Israel.
But notice who the original twelve tribes were in Number 1:17-43
Why does Revelation 7:4-8 diverge from the usual tribal listing?
If you do not know, then it might be that your knowledge of the Bible is not as complete as you think.
Report Post »It is wise to refrain from criticizing a comment until you know all the facts.
kmichaels
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 12:54pmThe issue of adoption is directly tied to the fact that Christ taught that those that belong to spiritual Israel may easily be converted gentiles, so this is not a disconnected issue, it is a primary and related issue to who may enter through one of the twelve gates into the kingdom of heaven, each gate being named after one of the tribes of Israel. And there is a difference between Jews, being from the tribe of Judah, and the remaining eleven tribes of Israel. That is why I pointed out that not all of Israel is correctly defined as being “Jews”.
If you believe it is not important, to understand the concept of adoption into Israel, then you miss out on the possibility of any gentile entering the kingdom of God, since all gates into Heaven are labeled after one of the tribes of Israel.
Also, Jesus pointed out that his mission consisted of being sent to “the lost sheep of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So to ignore the concept of adoption into the house of Israel is to ignore a huge part of what Jesus taught.
Report Post »jwmarietta
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:54amI just watch a Jack Van Impe show about Obama’s religion and he said alot about the universalism and all.
Report Post »Im pretty sure that the Bible makes it very clear that the only way to heaven is through the blood of Christ.
bew0576
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:27amYou are 100% right!! For Mr. Bell to have so much Bible knowledge, how did he miss this? This is just another example of trampling the blood of Jesus and this being done from the pulpit, is beyond sad. He is misleading people and he will stand before God and answer for this, I ask that people read the Bible for themselves and learn the TRUTH!
Report Post »ArmyWifeNiz
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:53amI have not read this book. That being said, I cannot blame a God that is a just God to following through with what he said he’d do after we die. If we spend our whole lives doing it “Our Way” and not “His Way”. no matter how much He loves us, yet we still turn from Him, we have made our choice. He isn’t condemning us, we condemn ourselves by our choice to turn away from Him. God isn’t going to make us chose to be with Him in the afterlife, especially if we spent our whole mortal lives choosing to turn away from Him. We have free will. It is our choice. Choose wisely. He gave us THIS life to choose. God loves us, but we have to choose by our actions to love Him back.
Report Post »dizzyinthedark
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:53amMake YOUR choice. If it sits well with you, if your soul is restful with it then your choice is the right one for you! Read the Bible for guidance. Pray then, shut up for once to listen to God instead of doing all the talking! KISS, (Keep It Simple Stupid)! God=Love
Report Post »RevDarwinEllis
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:51amSince when is truth hate?
Report Post »MaggieRose
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:48amRev… chapter and verse, please, where Jesus condemned anyone to hell? You know, I’m going to leave calling people “satan” and “demon” to Someone Who really knows their heart… not just the outside package.
Report Post »HamRadioman
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:17pmWhat do you think Jesus meant when he told the people that they will “die in there sins” if they didn’t follow Jesus???
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 6:46pmThe concept is known as a second death, or a separation from the presence of God. It does not imply a second physical death. Merely a different form of existence without the benefit of the presence of God. Think of heaven as a controlled neighborhood where the bad guys will not be allowed to interfere with your lives anymore.
Report Post »toddtheartist
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 1:15pmMatthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Report Post »COT-TOE-MITEY
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:47amLike so many areas of life, a loud mouth few make the majority look bad. Come on Blaze fans…don’t you think the media loves to put hate-mongers in front of the camera? You should know that just because someone calls themself a Christian, doesn’t mean that they are. That is something that seems to be lost in the conversation these days. There is actually a Biblical definition, (a person who has believed in their heart and confessed with their mouth Christ as Lord. That is in the book of Romans) The new testament also teaches that you will know a true believer by the love they demonstrate. Those loving actions aren’t what saves a person, it is simply the evidence of that inward change. Just know that most genuine believers are very different from the HATERS the media wants to show you. You can find God’s perspective on these issues in the new testament book of John and in First Corinthians.
Report Post »ciaranicole9
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:34amI love Rob Bell honestly I’ve read all of his books up til now, seen him live, and even listen to his church’s podcast. That’s why this really breaks my heart. I don’t think for one second that he is a heretic I do on the other hand think he has fallen into a sin we have all committed. The Word says not to worship any graven idols and when you start to mold God into a god that only loves and never shows justice you are fooling yourself. That’s worshiping an idol, but don‘t judge him so harshly because you can’t forget that we break this commandment all the time when we try to justify our wrong doings. I know I’ve done it before, but there is one thing that I cant deny there is a heaven and a hell and where you end up is your decision.
Report Post »“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live” Deut. 30:19
MaggieRose
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:31amI do love the guys question, though… when you think of Christians, what pops in your mind? Those folks that never stop talking about God’s love or something else? Wow, have we missed the boat on that one, folks.
Report Post »toddtheartist
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 1:21pmWhen I think of Jesus, I think of his profound love – but he also had vehement correction for the Pharisees and Sadducees. Jesus never cast judgment upon those that were lost, but he did upon those that taught heresy and hypocrisy.
Report Post »Joelswork
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:27amChrist taught not to judge the unbeliever but we are supposed to question anything taught to us by our pastors and test it against scripture….over and over, this guy teaches non scriptural things
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:34amActually Christ taught that the unbeliever is already judged so there is nothing left for us to judge. We do not condemn their actions because they are (just as we did at one time) following their nature. But I do agree with the spirit of what you communicated.
John 3:18
Report Post »Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
dabbo
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:59amHere’s the biblical answer to you question….1Cor5:9. We’re not to judge the non-believers but anyone who calls themselves a brother in Christ is fair game….including the pastor.
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 12:46pmOtherHand is making his typical error of cherry picking one scripture, combined with an overly abundant flaw of taking all things literally, and drawing a false conclusion that the judgment is already over, if a person currently is a non-believer. Of course his conclusion is ridiculous based on what many other scriptures say, regarding unbelievers, their potential to repent, their potential to be converted, etc. Then we have other scriptures that illustrate that the final judgement comes later in life for most.
The bottom line is don‘t believe OtherHand’s weak interpretation of scripture. He is known for cherry picking and unwise analysis of what is written.
Here is just one example from Paul, illustrating the potential for a non-believer to be saved, and become a believer. Oddly, the wording illustrates that the believing husband and or believing wife is attributed with the ability to “save” somebody else, by their works and actions being a good example to others.
Paul 1 Corinthians 7
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
Report Post »jedi.kep
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:27amThe Bible (where you learn about Heaven and Hell) tells us about people in Hell and in torment. This guy ignores those verses. An honest person deals with the reality of Hell in the Scriptures.
A minister once said, “It’s the hardest thing for Christians to stay in the middle of the road. They get into the ditch on one side or get into the ditch on the other.”
Ditch-God sends all people to Heaven because he is love.
Report Post »Ditch-God sends most people to hell because he’s a God of judgment
Middle of the road- God is a God of Love and judgment. If you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and receive the love of God you can avoid the judgment and get to Heaven. If you reject Jesus and God’s Love, you will go to hell in judgment.
trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:59amGood analogy. I use the same for Calvinism/Arminianism.
One ditch: Total free will, God does not even know what we will choose next.
Other ditch: God does not give us any choice, HE makes ALL decisions including individual salvation.
It is funny that we are so quick to condemn those who “compromise” but I have found that in most cases in life everything is on a bell curve. There is a huge pendulum that swings to extremes on either side. The truth is usually found somewhere in the middle. In Christianity another instance is the fight between legalism/liberalism. Both sides are in error.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:31am@ TROLLTRAINER………..I find your position on being in the middle dogmatic and to an extreme. I think you will find the truth of what you stated somewhere in the middle…..lol just joking….How sad I made myself laugh.
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:16pmtrolltrainer:
God DOES know what we will choose. He just doesn’t interfere with our free will. Get your facts straight. The problem with your statement is you are second-guessing God and that is something we shouldn’t even consider. LOOK INSIDE YOURSELF. God gives us free will to choose. He already knows what we will choose, but allows us to choose anyways without interference. If we dwell on what we THINK GOD KNOWS about us, we will stray from the truth. RETURN TO THE SIMPLE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. That is what is important. When you do, the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truths and lead you the rest of the way. There won’t be any need to SECOND-GUESS God. It won’t matter. Heaven will be yours, along with eternity with Christ Jesus.
God made it very simple for us, but man has made it difficult. Just read John 3:16 and go from there. Leave doctrine out of it. Read Paul’s words and then follow them. If you can’t do that, then your heart is not in the right place. TRY AGAIN. Do it the best you can. Ask for forgiveness and move on. God is loving and patient. Christ went to the cross for exactly what you are going through. Acknowledge that, accept it, and follow Jesus. Very simple. MAN MAKES IT HARD.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 1:06pmdem girl, Quit being so durned self-righteous! Do not tell me to get my facts straight when I did not say anything that you accuse me of! You said,
“the problem with your statement is you are second guessing God…”
WHAT statement? Read my post again. I was pointing out BOTH extremes to the argument. I agree 100% with what you are saying, I even say it in another post somewhere else in here talking to a Calvinist.
I appreciate what you have to say, I remember your posts from other articles. But you need to slow down and stop being so accusational with others. Remember 1 Peter 3:15! Give a defense, but always do so with love and respect! And yeah, I sometimes fail at this myself!
Report Post »Magen_daveed7
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 12:45pmThat is just a theological interpretation of what is written.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:23amJohn 14:6; Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Report Post »Jesus told everyone the deal and that’s good enough for me.
Jim
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 10:52amGonzo: That is a silly statement. Jesus told only a few people. In the meantime, people were continuing to die by the thousands each day without having heard the message. So you are fine with them being abused for eternity for not accepting a message they never heard? Wrestle with this issue before you self-righteously assure yourself that you were clever enough to make the right decision.
Report Post »Magen_daveed7
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:23amGod will indeed wipe away ALL tears, even the tears of the wicked but not all will go to Heaven. Many after judgment will cease to exist even in memory.
Report Post »twindaddy
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:22amGod gave us the greatest gift of all…the freedom of choice. We can choose to do good and show compassion for our fellow man or stand in silence and let evil prevail. There is you or heaven and hell. The choice is your.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:18am“It has taken me to a place of profound brokenness.”
When I hear language like this my spiritual sphincter tightens up.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:29amI hope like you friend that it leads to a better understanding of the word and a reconsideration of his thoughts on things.
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:13pm“For many traditional Christians, Bell’s book sounds a lot like universalism — a heresy for many churches. It teaches that everyone, regardless of belief, will be saved by God. They argue that misleads people about the reality of the Christian faith. Bell has said he doesn’t teach universalism.”
It does not SOUND like universalism………….it IS universalism. Call a spade a spade.
Report Post »martnee777
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:11amI don’t know what to think about Bell but I am certain of one thing, it will be God that judges me, not Man. I do not understand where a man thinks he gets the authority to judge me or anyone else and condemn them to eternal suffering.
Report Post »MrsNix
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:21amPutting God in a box and vehemently insisting that you know all the rules is the common lie. I am a Christian, but I am sick to death of the type of Christian who walks around verbally bludgeoning men like this author. Seriously. It‘s intellectual laziness in the extreme to believe you have the answer because you’ve read a book. I believe that The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe that because of what happens every time I read from it in my own life and because of the change it creates in me…my feelings, my outlook, my resolve.
All that said, people love to forget the parts that remind us we do NOT have the answer. Have a trip through Romans. Saint Paul reminds us all to be humble. He reminds us that we all fall short. He reminds us that vengeance is God’s alone. He reminds us that we do not understand and cannot ever understand. Phillipians reminds us specifically not to lean on our own understanding but to look to God for our answers.
That’s what this man did when he wrote this book, and I applaud him.
Getting your panties in a wad over doctrinal issues to the point that you openly condemn others is heavily condemned in the Bible. I, for one, am sick of the cherry-picking from evangelicals in this country and the outright intolerance.
Report Post »thermonator
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:35amAmen……… Well said MRSINX!
Report Post »MaggieRose
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:42am@MrsNix… very well put! The entire Bible points us toward God’s love, and how much He wants to be available to us, and be known to us at least in part here on earth… not to use His words as swords to slash each other with.
Report Post »blazer809
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:03am@MARTNEE777 hey mart, i’m certain christians are instructed to judge rightly, however we do not condemn to hell. remember it‘s the hypocrite that shouldn’t judge…
Report Post »karenjerry
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:36amMaggieRose
Report Post »Hebrews 4:12
dabbo
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:46amWe like to think as we become a more liberal society that God changes with us…..and since its the 2010‘s he’ll overlook the kind of perversions most of us are involved with or dabble in.
God’s the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. There is a hell and that is seperation from God.
“And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:45amI am sorry MRSNIX, but you are wrong. There is a grave difference between differences in theology and heresy and those preaching heresy lead others astray. You claim you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and I commend you for that. It is. The Bible CLEARLY teaches us certain things and to go against those things is going against Christ. That needs to be corrected.
What you wrote is the exact reason why I do not get into theological “fights” with other Christians. I understand that your theology can differ from mine and we both can still be Christians. Too many people do bludgeon others over the head with their understanding of Scripture. In that sense your post was spot on. But the pendulum can swing too far the other way, it is not “everything goes” in Christianity; why do you think God gave us the Bible in the first place? There are some main tenants that you HAVE to believe to be a Christian. Bell is making an error here, and while I believe he is legitimately sincere in his beliefs he needs to be corrected. THAT is why he is broken over this. This is good this shows me Bell is not arrogant enough to believe HE has all the answers and that he is open to those criticizing him. I pray he searched for the answer here, if he is a Christian then the Holy Spirit will eventually get him to the truth. Maybe there is a reason why he wrote his book, maybe that reason is simply so we can discuss it in this forum. God works in marvelous ways.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:55am@MRSNIX………….you said…..All that said, people love to forget the parts that remind us we do NOT have the answer. Have a trip through Romans. Saint Paul reminds us all to be humble. He reminds us that we all fall short. He reminds us that vengeance is God’s alone. He reminds us that we do not understand and cannot ever understand. ………….I would say God most definitely expects that we can and should understand what he has communicated about our personal lives, Heaven, Heall, others, marriage, relationships, money, etc… Your statements are not correct when you say we are reminded about us not having answers. You are right in that we personally do not possess them but by the word of God we possess them. It is a light unto our path as the psalmist wrote. Jesus being the light unto the world came to illuminate our knowledge that was in darkness. And because you combat error which can mean the difference of where someone spends eternity is hardly mean spirited or bludgeoning. You applaud this man for writing a book full of heresy that will make people who are in conflict with an Almighty Judge have a false sense of security that he would never condemn them? I will die to my last breath to combat this evil teaching and people will never be able to say that they were not told the truth by me. I do agree we want to remain humble for what do I possess that I was not given by my Father. I have no knowledge of my own, just that which Jesus taught very clearly in the word…..
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:58amGood post TROLLTRAINER…………Jesus words he said cut deeper than any two edged sword and that the truth will set you free not the war fuzzies and what our itching ears want to hear.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:44am1 Timothy 6:20
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
1 Timothy 1:3
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Ephesians 4:25
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Titus 2:1
Report Post »You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.
MASTER YODA
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:11am“MRSNIX”. You are on the right track but the things you say remind me of a religious person, not a godly person. My first clue is that you say “Saint Paul”. Scripture tells us that all who chose Jesus are the “Saints of God”. I don’t think you know who you are in Christ. Your post sounds like so many Christians I have met who have that attitude that we are worthless sinners who don’t know anything and are full of sin. Tho we can sin, once you are born again, you have God’s nature not the sin nature (thus born again). If we were worthless, Jesus would not have paid such a high price for us. I pray you really dig deep and seek the higher things that God has for you. We are MORE than conquerers in Jesus, demons quake when we pray, we can do ALL things that Christ did and greater things, Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. Have a victorious life my friend.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:00pm@ MASTER…………Agreed we are most valuable in God’s sight and we should be able to enter before the Lord with boldness/confidence if we know who we are in Christ.
Ephesians 3:12
Report Post »In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
MrsNix
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 2:45amLet’s see…I’m wrong. My understanding of the Bible is wrong. I don’t know who I am in Christ. Gee, I’m probably going to Hell, too, right? You know…where “Christians like me” end up. Vicious. You people are seriously vicious. Enjoy it, but you made my point.
You’ve got your copy of the book, and you’ve read it in church all your life. You’ve put pretty stickers on the box you built for God. You know all the rules because you play every single day. You can spew off 10 verses at me at a time. Yeah. You’re just a better child of God than me, and you know the condition of my soul just by reading an online post about an author being eviscerated by the people around him because he felt inspired to write a book.
Report Post »MrsNix
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 2:47amSomehow…I don‘t think I’m the one who’s lost focus on Christ in this discussion.
Report Post »NickDeringer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:05am“There is no Hell” is the oldest lie in the Bible. Many will be led astray by this perversion of Christianity.
martnee777
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:14amI would say it is the oldest lie of those that interpret the Bible.
LeaderShip
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:47amNick – just because you don’t believe in something does not mean it is not true. The Bible is the Holy Inspired word of God and as written literally, interpreted means what it says. As scripture reads – as they stand before a Holy God in judgment, He will say to them “depart from me” Luke 13:27 which being separated from God for eternity will be hell enough for most people.
Report Post »ManThong
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:48amIf you don’t think hell exists just go to Chicago… in Cook County… in Illinois.
Dante could not have dreamed up three more damnable layers.
Report Post »hillbillyinny
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:54amI believe there IS puishment for those who die in their sin. I don’t completely understand between “sheol,“ ”hell“ and the ”bottomless pit.” But, I do know that Jesus condensed His entire teaching into this: “Love the Lord your God with heart, mind, soul and spirit” (the Shema), and “love others as self” (Jesus message and life, to the point of dying for others!).“ He also taught that there would be seperation or ”death” if we did not follow the above in ALL OF ITS RAMIFICATIONS DAILY.
May we somehow understand that the specific theological discussions are not the important part of the “message” of the Bible. Complete love of God and complete love of others through Jesus’ sacrifice and example which was the final sacrifice is the POINT of the Word become man. We shouldn’t even have to WORRY whether there is a hell or not!
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:57amThe unbelieving culture today has a problem because there’s no basis for truth out there outside the word of god.
Boundry of good and evil runs through every human heart.
How do we overcome the world system? Jesus Christ is the victor. Believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God our creator. Believe what he has taught. Then you’ll believe that he will be victorious in the final analysis. If that faith isn’t present, you’ll be swept along with the world system.
Report Post »Gold Coin & Economic News
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:20am“I kept meeting religious people who were incredibly dogmatic about heaven and hell when you die but didn’t seem to care about the fact that 800,000,000 people will go to bed hungry tonight.”
These are really two separate issues, one a theological issues and one a physical issue. I think the reason people are dogmatic as you say Mr Bell, is because the Bible is pretty clear about what happens after death, you are either with God or you aren’t. That is not dogma, it is belief in he TRUTH. Are you not being dogmatic about your heresy?
On the other hand, yes, I care deeply about the 800,000,000 people who will go to bed hungry tonight but, I can do nothing physical to help the overwhelming majority of them. I can only feed a minute few because the task is a monumental undertaking, it is overwhelming. To say that people don’t care about that is a little misleading, what can you do to care? You can feed a few people and pray for the rest.
How would you like us to care Mr Bell? There are millions to maybe a few billion more that are daily oppressed, or bullied, or victims of theft, or have mental sickness, or are forced into slavery or face a million other hardships in the world today. It isn‘t that we don’t care, but that no individual can do much about most of the evil going on in the world. All we can do is affect the world around us and be an influence in our immediate sphere of contact.
So get off the kick that people don’t care Mr Bell. Billions go to charity every year, obviously people do care.
Report Post »Awakened One
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:40amBell is the best thing to happen to conventional Christianity in a long time. No loving God would condemn his ignorant children to eternity in torment for a few short years of misunderstanding – not even fear mongering judgmental Christians. You wouldn’t condemn your children for eternity, and your love for them pales in comparison to God’s love for us. The truth will set you free. You don’t need the threat of hell to love life.
Highland
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 8:53amHow really sad for him that his heresy is not universally welcomed.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:01amBell said he wrote the book because the Christian message that God is love seems to have gotten lost.
ehmm—-I think that the idea of God being a big sugar daddy who is like a big fuzzy teddy bear is quite alive and well. What has been lost is that God is a holy God and a God of love, but he is also a God of Justice and Wrath and will judge unrepentant people for their sin. This guy likes to play on people with the warm fuzzies and he himself may be sincere. But that doesn’t negate the truth of God that He has revealed in his word. You cannot hold up and teach God is love to the detriment of or lessening of God’s other characteristics such as holiness, justice, and wrath. Bell is leading people astray with his feel good message of God that is void of the main condition, separation of man from God due to sin. Until that is restored by genuine repentance and faith in Jesus Christ then God’s judgment and wrath remains on a person.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
1 John 5:10
Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:07am@ HILLILLYINNY………..While I appreciate your sentiment and spirit, I do have to agree with you strongly. If those other things were not important then why did Jesus choose to communicate them to us? They are very important. Although I agree the law and prophets can be summed up in the 2 commands you listed, because of our sinful natures we need more detail to know what those things look like. How would you know how to love God or others if those things were not communicated. Hell is a very necessary teaching and was a large part of Jesus teachings and communications to people then and now. The Bible has from the beginning spoken of a coming judgment and for man to be ready by believing in Jesus. I came to faith not because I was presented with a warm fuzzy all loving teddy bear, but because I was convicted that I was a rebel against an Almighty God who I would stand before some day and He alone possessed the authority and power to condemn me. My fear of God drove me to repentance the grace and mercy I received drove me to love and devotion…..
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:10am@ FLORIDACRACKER…………I don’t know if you are JW or not but your understanding of those texts is incorrect. Jesus taught the following in Matthew 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Report Post »William
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:12amWow, that pastor needs to get back into his Bible. Stop making things up. God does not like Gays, lires, thiefts, murderers ect. andthere will be a lake of fire after the rapture. You have to live by the 10 commandments and confess your sins. Get on your face before god and get into the word daily. I have no idea where this pastor gets his info from.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:14am@ AWAKENED ONE……….I think your name betrays your reality. Where is anyone other than believers called God’s children? Point to one verse just one. In fact they are called children of the devil when they are unbelievers. Don’t forget your heart is deceitful above all things (as scripture says) when you rely on your emotions and human reasoning to conjure up spiritual truth you are going to be false. Only God can reveal the accurate spiritual realities to us. John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:16am@ HILLBILLY…………….I meant to say disagree with you strongly.
Report Post »hopefulmainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:18amGod doesn’t send people to hell is a true statement. People actually choose to go there. God’s will is that no man/woman should perish but have eternal life. However through the choices people make in life decides their own eternal resting place. It’s just that simple.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:29amAwakened One:
Bell is the best thing to happen to conventional Christianity in a long time. No loving God would condemn his ignorant children to eternity in torment for a few short years of misunderstanding – not even fear mongering judgmental Christians. You wouldn’t condemn your children for eternity, and your love for them pales in comparison to God’s love for us. The truth will set you free. You don’t need the threat of hell to love life.
———————————————————————————————
And you support that with what Scripture? Or is that YOUR logical conclusion because you know what God knows? Do you even believe the Bible? Because the Bible tells me different from what you claim.
You and Bell have missed the boat entirely; It is about a RELATIONSHIP with Christ. It is not about fear mongering or judgment, it is about the LACK of judgment and reward, or a better word, inheritance. You do not receive an inheritance unless you CLAIM it. If you do not claim it then it is nobody elses fault but your own that you lost it. God has created a place for sin, you are sin. God has given you a pardon from that sin, if you do not accept the pardon you suffer the consequence of that sin. The pardon is free, it is yours to choose.
Awakened One, you are SO close! You believe in God, you believe in Christ. Satan believes in Christ too. Mere belief is not going to help you. Why do you think Christ walked among us? Read your Bible carefully, look at the verses Watchtheotherhand provided you, dig even deeper. Read John chapter 14. Get down on your knees and ask Christ to send the Holy Spirit to you. Ask for forgiveness and ask Christ into your life. Ask Him to show you the way. Commit to Him, serve Him, and love Him. That is why you are here, to choose Him or reject Him. It really is that simple.
Report Post »NSDQ
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:52amSo if a crossing guard at an intersection tells me to stop and wait to cross, and I ignore him and cross anyway is the crossing guard evil for letting the car hit and kill me?
Report Post »StonyBurk
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:54amIMO a man who would there is no hell– is already broken.I kinda like the scripture that speaks of some
Report Post »being like fat burned on the fire. The guy with horns and a long pointy tail,and pitchfork and horns is myth. But it is appointed for a man once to die and then the judgement . And if judgement then there must be a parting of the evil and the good. And being denied the comfort and company of my Lord Jesus would be Hell indeed.
MASTER YODA
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:47amBell truly has a clue not. Head of the dumbed down, watered down, touchy feely believe what ever you want church He is.
Report Post »John1717
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:52amSo… Jesus was lying when he used the phrase: “eternal punishment”…? (Matthew 25:46)
ltb
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:02amSpankDaMonkey
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:38am.
There is a Hell…
Over the past 3 yrs Obama was elected, my 13 month old grandson was beaten over a french fry(he is fine now), trying to build our dream home the contractor walked off with our money and in Texas it is next to impossible to get your money back. Just like the Baby beater, the guy who stole $300k will get a pass in TEXAS. Oh 90 days for beating a baby, and a very strong warning to me from the court……
REMEMBER KIDS TEXAS SUCKS…………………….
—–
How often do you pray over your grandson and how many times did you pray before you decided to go with the contractor you chose?
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:05amJust look at all these loving comments from loving Christians…..by their fruits you shall know them…they are not disciples of Christ. Go Brother Bell…you are very correct in your teachings. Remember all the good “heretics”…Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, …etc.
Report Post »BlackPantherParty
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:06amProve it.
Report Post »Cerealface
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:12amOnly you bible thumping extremists are so closed minded about a belief that you forget you were open minded to believe that crap in the first place.
RTARDS
Report Post »mrclean
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:23aman audience member asked him about the criticism he has faced. “It has taken me to a place of profound brokenness.”
He’s broken because he has been rejected and condemned by religious people. A completely human emotion. Welcome to the real world. Jesus told us that if “they” rejuected Him, they would surely reject you (paraphrased), although I’m not sure that even applies here. It’s no big deal that he feels “profound brokeness.”
I would think he counted the price before he published the book…. but I guess he thought he was right and everyone would stampede to his front door to worship his words. Time to puke.
Report Post »LeaderShip
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:34amAwakened one- the people on earth are not ignorant to the message of Christ dying on the cross for their sins, John 3:16 is so clear and you can’t even watch a football game without seeing the message. The Bible is very clear people WILL be dammed to a literal eternity of burning in fire not because they have not been told, but because they reject Christ!
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:42amHad just seen an APP “Catholic Cheat Sheet”, it’s amazing to me how ridiculous people can be, to what great lengths people go to avoid truths in the Bible. There’s no short cut to salvation, it isn’t a mystery, unless you idolize mysterious people such as Bell & Beck.
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:45amDoes Bell mean “profound brokenness” in that, no one is buying his book?
So, he tried to be an Aesop and write a Fable. Not only that he went a step beyond Aesop and tried to peddle it as truth. Rob should have been honest and peddled it as “Bell’s Fable.”
Not A Good Idea To Re-Write Scripture! Bell needs to come in off of that slippery slope and read the Bible. It’s obvious he knows nothing about that of which he is writing and speaking.
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:55amHere’s a question no one has asked: DID YOU READ ANY OF THIS IN THE BIBLE? Did you actually READ the New Testament words of Jesus Christ? DID YOU? DID YOU? Or, are you just taking someone’s word for it, which could actually lead you, yourself, to hell?
Read LUKE 6:39. YOU CANNOT DEPEND ON OTHER PEOPLE TO LEAD YOU. You must read the Bible for yourself and then ASK GOD AND HIS HOLY SPIRIT for direction, believing He will guide you ALWAYS using your scriptures as guidance.
What is wrong with all you people? People are people. They are NOT infallible. They are sinful by nature because of Satan. READ YOUR BIBLE and see what Christ tells us, not what some fool says in Michigan because it sounds good or soft and fluffy. No wonder this country is in the state it is in. No one goes to the SOURCE, which is GOD’S WORD. Get into your Bible and READ IT and stop all this controversy. Satan twists words, deceives people, makes things sound good, but it is all a way to counterfeit the word of God. GO DIRECTLY TO GOD’S WORD FOR YOUR ANSWER. God does not change. MAN DOES.
Report Post »OneFootRandy
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:56amENOUGH!
Mathew 7:13-14 – 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it
Isaiah 13:12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.
The bible is based on love, but it is not a lovefest as Pastor Bell would prefer to portray it. I understand the compassion a man of God has for the possibility of salvation for his flock, but very few of us are going to make it, even many of us bible thumping extremist wont measure up at the final judgement.
Gods compassion is our opportunity, our decisions, our choices our faith are the realization of that compassion,
Report Post »BMMiller1975
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:00pmJesus talked several times about those who did not repent and believe being thrown into the fires of Hell. Yes, there is love. But love demands accountability, expects the best, and doesn’t excuse what is wrong.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:05pmPersonally, I think that Jesus was speaking literally when he said the father of men is the devil (e.g., Jn 8:44) and I believe that we all deserve to go to Hell. The Bible makes it clear that everyone will either go before Jesus to receive our rewards (2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15) or before God the Father to receive their punishment (Rev 20:11-15). The Bible also makes it clear “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Ro 10:9). Saved from what, if not saved from Hell? The way I see it is that God has invited all of mankind to come live with him for eternity if they will accept the key to his house. The key to his house is the blood Christ shed for the sins of humanity. If you reject the key, you are going to spend eternity with your father, the devil.
If you want to make sure that you never see Hell, unless it’s from across the great chasm that separates it from Heaven, get on your knees and pray the following prayer:
“Lord Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins, I receive your free gift of eternal salvation, please come into my heart and teach me how to love you. I pray this and everything in your holy name, Jesus. Amen.”
You don’t have to pray those exact words. The prayer is an act of faith through which you receive salvation, it is not what saves you; what saves you is Jesus’ sacrifice, on your behalf, for your sins. Just humble yourself, acknowledge that you are a sinner and let God know you want to receive his awesome gift of salvation. When God makes it this simple for people to go to Heaven, who cares about Hell?
…..
“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!’” (Jn 8:42-8:45)
..
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Eph 2:8-9)
Report Post »democratgirl
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:05pmWilliam:
God does not like gays????????? What? HE LOVES ALL PEOPLE. HE DOES NOT LIKE SIN.
Love the sinner, hate the sin…….ACTION…..the action or sin of being gay (COMMITTING A GAY ACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON) is what he does not like. On judgment day, he will look at those who were active sinners and look at them in deep, deep love, but HIS WORD IS TRUTH and He will have to PUNISH THEM, just like a parent does. He is our Father. He has given us so many warnings. What is it that you do not understand? Then, go to HIS WORD and see what He says about it. On Judgment Day, you and I will have absolutely NO EXCUSE because we have been warned and told what God will do. Accept His love and His Son, Jesus, and change our sinful ways, or suffer the consequences of HIS JUDGMENT. What part don’t any of you understand? Oh, I see, it doesn‘t fit into your sweet little box of man’s idea of fluffy love. It is easier and funner for you all to sin and then wait until the last second to repent. It does not work the way you all think it does. GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART. You cannot fool Him. Satan will try to fool you. You have been deceived by man and by Satan. READ GOD’S WORD. He is patient and waiting for you to repent and follow HIM, not man, not Satan. JUST REPENT AND MOVE ON. Do good. Worship God. READ YOUR BIBLE and forget what man says!!
Report Post »Jim
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:06pmThe oldest lie was “you could be like God”. There is no mention of hell or any concept relating to eternal punishment in the entire Old Testament. I remember being very confused after I became a Christian and read the Old Testament and found no mention of hell in all 37 books. Why didn’t God tell Adam, Noah, Moses or any Patriarch about such a significant place????
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:07pm@ LIBERTY……….your concept of what constitutes truly loving people in a godly way is has been diluted by the world’s wisdom. The most loving thing anyone can do is tell them the whole truth about God, sin, hell, heaven and salvation. To do anything less like pretend there is no judgment or hell is actually a hateful not loving act. Would you say (me being a physician) that I was loving if I told people they had cancer that I told them was relatively harmless and not to worry when in reality it was terminal? Or would you say I cared for that person and their well being by telling them the truth?
Report Post »ltb
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:07pmCerealface
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 11:12am
Only you bible thumping extremists are so closed minded about a belief that you forget you were open minded to believe that crap in the first place.
RTARDS
—–
I‘ll bet you’ve never even read the Bible, have you? If you have, you obviously didn‘t understand a word of it and if you haven’t that makes you about as closed minded as they get.
Report Post »walkwithme1966
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:44pmI finished reading this book last week. God is love and if we do not follow God and Christ with the message of love, we live in our own hell. Loved the book!! http://maboulette.wordpress.com
Report Post »foobear
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:54pmThere’s a huge difference between saying “Hell doesn’t exist“ and ”everyone who was born before Jesus automatically went to hell to be tormented”.
This is a not-so-fine point that a lot of you guys are missing.
If there’s no way to the father except through the son, and everything you do to the poor you do to the son, and the son will reject people that spout piety but don’t do charity, well. I don’t think the theology goes exactly how you think it does.
Raised as a Lutheran, it was kind of painful to realize the Bible rejects the notion of salvation by faith alone.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 1:11pmFoobear,
That is the old argument with Martin Luther and the book of James. It appears James contradicts what Paul teaches. But he does not. You ARE saved by faith alone. But…As a saved, spirit led Christian you MUST have good works. You are not saved by these works, and you will not be perfect, you will still not do everything you could for others, but you will not be able to not help others.
Report Post »Sgt.Crust
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 1:18pmHe opened the pandora’s box, and should suffer the consequences of his actions! Obviously, if he really read the Bible he would believe in a Heaven and a Hell. But he has (progressively) deluded himself to read other words instead, a fate of Hell awaits him unless he wakes up…
Report Post »DogTags
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 1:36pmThe oldest lie in the Bible is the one the Serpent told Eve in the Garden: “You will become as God.” Funny, that is the same lie Mormons believe, that we will become gods of our own planets and make spirit children. Mormons believe God was once as we are and attained godhood, and that we, too, can attain godhood. It is a lie just like Bell’s lie that there is no hell.
Report Post »vivrobbins
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 2:06pmThat‘s Gods’ business. Anyone searching for God will find him trough Jesus the Christ. God is love, it’s not Love is god. Blessings to all.
Report Post »Anti_Spock
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 2:13pmBell’s quote, “evacuation theology,“ describes religion, from muslims who murder infidels for an immediate ticket… to christians who routinely belittle non-christians while thinking Jesus has their back. If there is a Hell, hopefully its a place where muslims and christians get to spend an eternity at each others throat.
Report Post »gofigureinternational
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 2:22pmBe interesting to know how much Mr. Bell actually ‘donates’ from his royalties and salary towards the 800K or if he considers his “words” donation enough.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 2:35pmThe word Hell was translates into the English KJV Bible from 3 distinct and different words, which accounts for the confusion.
1. Hades (Greek) i.e. Grave or whole in the ground (this is the place we go for our first death, sleep until a resurrection)
2. Gehenna (Greek) i.e. This word is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky Valley of Hinnom, which lies just outside Jerusalem. It was the place where refuse from the city was burned up. Trash, filth and the dead bodies of animals and despised criminals were thrown into the fires of gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom. Ordinarily, everything thrown into this valley was destroyed by fire—burned up. Christ used gehenna to picture the fate of unrepentant sinners. (this Hell is where you go for the second or eternal death at the Great White Throne judgement; this second death occurs only to those who refuse to repent and follow God’s ways during the “second” resurrection (first resurrection is for the elect only); the body in this Hell will be completely consumes by fire never to be thought of again, God will not make people suffer forever because; He is love!
Jesus says: “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are “IN THE GRAVES” will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of [judgment] (second death)” (John 5:28-29). Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6, Rev 21;8
There is an accounting for our behavior in this life! Every human being who has ever lived will ultimately give an accounting and be in a resurrection.
3. Tartaroo (Greek) 2Pet 2:4 the word hell here refers not to a place but a condition. The condition of restraint that God imposed upon those angles which rebelled against Him and followed Satan.
God Is Love
Why do so many people have a false concept of “hell”? Because they have been deceived and do not understand God’s overall purpose for creating mankind.
God’s purpose for man is that he develop the holy, righteous character of God, which will make him “fit” to receive the precious gift of eternal life. But God created man of the dust of the ground, subject to death, so that if he failed to develop righteous character, he could—unlike Satan and the immortal angels who sinned and became demons—be released from his misery by[second/eternal] death.
God has no desire to torment or to torture anyone. God is love (1 John 4:8). He created us mortal for our own good. He will condemn no one because of ignorance, and will see to it that every person ultimately learns the truth and has a real opportunity for salvation upon sincere repentance, no matter how terrible his or her sins have been.
The god of this world “Satan” (2 Corinthians 4:4). will do anything to keep this truth from mankind because God’s truth is power against him. Mr. Bell only seeks the truth! We should all seek truth! Why condemn a man for that which Christ asked us to do? Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. “Let him without sin cast the first stone.” •
Report Post »ltb
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 3:08pmfoobear
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 12:54pm
If there’s no way to the father except through the son, and everything you do to the poor you do to the son, and the son will reject people that spout piety but don’t do charity, well. I don’t think the theology goes exactly how you think it does.
—–
Notice that Jesus said “brothers and sisters of mine” when he said “whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me” (Mt 25:40). Christians should take care of each other (i.e., our brothers and sisters in Christ) and while we certainly should show compassion to other people in need, you’re wasting your time if you’re counting on “good” deeds to get yourself into Heaven.
Anyone who stands before God and says “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” is going to be told to leave (Matthew 7:21-23). You don’t want to go before God and start spouting off all of the great things you did that make you worthy to enter his kingdom. Not that this question is going to be asked when you stand before Jesus, but if he does ask “Why do you deserve to be here,” your answer had better be something like, “absolutely nothing, thank you for dying for my sins so I can be here right now.”
As Trolltrainer said, God has prepared works for us, even though works do not save us. If one Christian gives $1,000,000 to an Islamic charity in Indonesia that feeds poor Muslims while teaching them that Jesus is merely a prophet and one Christian gives $10 to send Bibles to Muslims in Indonesia, which person has glorified Jesus and served God? Common sense says that the only “works” that matter are those which involve sharing the gospel and I believe such works are what the Bible is talking about when it says “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Eph 2:10).
Salvation through Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with our own deeds, which are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6), rather it is all about what Jesus did on our behalf. This is a simple truth, but for whatever reason, most people can’t seem to grasp it.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 3:24pm@ LTB……….Amen !!!
JBLAZE ………comes from the JW perspective with her assertions.
ANTI-SPOCK…………Hello friend !! I would simply point out that I do not see you as less in anyway whatsoever, that would be the height of hypocrisy on my part and would demonstrate that I truly missed the message of Jesus. Namely, that all of us every single one deserves eternal death for our sin as no one is without it. I have received eternal life only on the merit and grace of what Jesus did for me because of his love for me. I hope you will discover this for yourself someday friend. I will pray for you and I don’t mean that in a condescending way at all but more as good will for toward you. Good day friend.
Report Post »GONESURFING
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 3:27pmJBLAZE, good post. It is better to be safe than sorry. The Bible does has many almost contradictions, but not really. Jesus spoke of hell, Paul wrote about God redeeming ALL THINGS. One thing is sure, GOD IS LOVE, and JESUS is the answer.
Report Post »604karen
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 3:30pmMartineee777
I would say you don’t have a clue as to what is in the Bible.
Report Post »Anti_Spock
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 4:24pmWATCH… I enjoy your feedback… “Namely, that all of us every single one deserves eternal death for our sin as no one is without it.”
Let me throw one by you and get your take on it. Imagine eternity and what that means. To me that means no beginning and no end. ETERNITY. It can’t be measured by time as we know it. But imagine an eternity ruler passing in front of you, no end on the left or right. Now imagine placing a molecule on the ruler. This molecule represents your lifetime compared to eternity. Its important that you visualize that before tackling this question:
Knowing what we know about the human condition (you say its sin / I say its human nature) do you honestly believe that your actions spent within the molecule of time determines where your soul will spend for all eternity? (btw… religion says its a soul.. I say life is manifested energy)
Our life span is quicker than the blink of an eye on the eternity scale. Genetics, diet, you name it causes a huge variety of human outcomes. So my second question would be do you really believe god intervenes in genetics, diet, (you name it) to influence a gathering?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 4:47pm@ ANTI-SPOCK…..Thanks for your response I always read yours as well. First let me say I agree with you on the point of it being our nature (being sinful humanity by nature we sin, just like by nature a bird will fly). And I also agree wholeheartedly with you that our lives are a mist or vapor here today and gone tomorrow in the context of eternity. I also agree with you that eternity as we understand it from a time perspective is more of a description to help us understand spiritual realities rather than an actual time measurement per se.
Now to answer your first question to the best of my ability…..First I will have to state that I believe first that creation is as much about us and our works as much as it is about God and the full expression of His being, ie omnipotence, wrath, mercy, compassion, justice, omniscience etc etc…..That being said He has chose to reveal His many characteristics thorugh the way he relates with that creation namely man. It is not so much what I do in my speck of time on the ruler as much as it is about what he has done from all eternity past to all eternity future in the person and work of his son Jesus. I simply put my faith in that work as he has given the prescription for my salvation. He has clearly said it is not based upon my works they are filthy rags because many times even what appears as good may have many tainted motives of the heart.
Second……I believ that God can and has intervened in miraculous ways ie the connotation miracle. However, this is not the norm or the typical because creation has been tainted or corrupted if you will by sin therefore there are consequences variations diseases etc…..not sure if I answered what you were asking and not sure by what you mean gathering????? Sorry bout that just clarify for me if I missed your point thanks again.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 5:00pm@ ANTI-SPOCK……….meant to say that creation is NOT as much about us as God………sorry
Report Post »RJO
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 5:20pmYes….hell does exist Pastor – at different levels. Want an example?
HELL would be the task of viewing all of the “leading” Democratic women in politics, during Bathing Suit competition – Hillary, Sonja, Kagan, Piven…….OK gotta stop…getting nauseous….
Report Post »RJO
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 5:29pmSooooooooooo….Evangelical “megachurch” pastor Rob Bell represents the latest Christian “schism” in the 95-thousand schisms that have happened since Martin Luther? No wonder we’ve lost our sense of direction.
Bell received his Divinity degree from “Larson’s School of Religion and Hair Design” – located in the back of the Hardware Hank store in beautiful downtown Toledo….or was it Toronto?
Report Post »So Ready to go
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 6:09pmThe is the oldest trick Satan uses on mankind…”oh, surely a GOD of love won’t send you to Hell!” It was the same thing he told Eve in the Garden of Eden, “surely you will not die!” People, be careful that you don’t fall for that trick! Read…nay, study with earnest your Bible, and spend time on your knees! Your eternity depends on it!!
Report Post »Anti_Spock
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:41pmWATCH.. I think I know what you are saying, only our perspectives are different. If I interpret you correctly on these two points;
Point one: The term “eternal” is an unknown from how we think about time. The word eternal in a biblical context has more to do with spirituality than actual physical time. (I think thats right… if not please square me away)
Point two: (Best if I quote you); “…this is not the norm or the typical because creation has been tainted or corrupted if you will by sin therefore there are consequences variations diseases etc….”
If i understand the first point correctly, the objective in “being saved” is to attain spiritual unity with God as opposed to attaining a spot in Heaven. These are different, since although attaining spiritual unity might transpire in a place called Heaven, it remains intact absent Heaven (not saying there isn’t a heaven.. just ranking the goals… which is unity with God first, entry into heaven second… even if the second goal naturally occurs after the first goal.)
Linking this with the second point…
If it is sin that taints man as the primary corruption factor (using your example of diseases as fallout from sin) then it is only fair to examine the occurrence of diseases in all life forms, not just man. And it is also fair to compare diseases between populations of people. In both cases, disease is indiscriminate, attacking all types of people of all religious faiths and backgrounds. Even what we term a “miraculous cure” occurs rather indiscriminately.
These two points do not mesh. On one hand, people look for salvation as earnestly as they look for miraculous cures. I think you would agree that miracles are rare events. Since both points appeal to spirituality, attaining one without the other imbalances the spiritual equilibrium. Maybe a better way to explain it… suppose your son (or daughter) does something stupid and seeks your forgiveness. You observe he/she is sincere in their asking and you give it. Now part of being in your good graces is you provide 3 square meals a day. But suddenly you stop feeding them. Your spirit deprives them of what they need to cope and survive. That (to me) exceeds cruelty.
Report Post »nonwinger
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 7:59pmThe oldest lie is that there is a place of non-ending torment for those who never heard or were incapable of knowing Christ. What is sad is that you are ok with the majority of mankind suffering forever and ever and you actually believe that our Father is ok with it too.
Report Post »YouGottaProblemWithThat
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:08pmYou may make the decision to believe what ever you like, however you will not make the decision regarding the consequenses of that belief.
Report Post »jackrorabbit
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:22pmUmmm, Jesus did talk A LOT about the after life. Remember this little diddy, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through Me”. I could go on and on. The camel through the eye of the needle… My father has many mansions… The story of the rich man and the poor man “dip you finger in the water and cool my tongue for I’m tormented in the FLAME”
Report Post »Anti_Spock
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 9:48pmJACKRORABBIT.. “My father has many mansions…”
Isn’t it odd that Jesus would publicize his fathers BLING and promote heaven as a place for the ubber-rich? I don’t care how many souls you preach to, sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 1:20am@ ANTI-SPOCK……….sorry it took a while for me to comment back I was actually at church haha. I appreciate your comment and there is no doubt that discussing things of this nature would flow so much better in person than this format. It is sometimes difficult to me as some things seem to be somehow “lost in translation”. I tend to think of God as being outside of time as we know it. Time just as man or earth being a part of God’s creation if you will by which we are bound and operate within its confines in this life. So eternity is a communication to us to signify the unending existing nature of things not bound by time as we currently understand it. I completely agree with you that sin effected the whole of creation men, animals and the Earth itself. I would also agree that our motive ultimately should be to love God as the Bible actually defines eternal life as knowing God, meaning in complete intimacy as a husband might know his wife. In this sense my goal is not necessarily heaven but rather communion and worship of God. Heaven to me by definition is the place where I may experience the full presence of God and communion with Him. By contrast hell would be the complete absence of His presence or communion with Him. I believe that physical life and death are meant to reflect this reality. When we are alive we can enter into each others lives and commune (albeit tainted by sin currently it still illustrates the point), but when we physically die we are cut off from the land of the living as it were and all communion with them thus representing the reality of hell as the second death and separation from the eternal living………………….
. And it is also fair to compare diseases between populations of people. In both cases, disease is indiscriminate, attacking all types of people of all religious faiths and backgrounds. Even what we term a “miraculous cure” occurs rather indiscriminately…………….
Completely agree only thing I would state is that the condition of death is common to every one so in this regard the ultimate final result is not indiscriminate but rather universal.
……….people look for salvation as earnestly as they look for miraculous cures………….This I am not sure I agree with you fully as there are many who care nothing for searching or even believe there is such a need as salvation. But so far as that some do there has been made a way and this is why the gospel has been commissioned to be carried into all the world.
………..I think you would agree that miracles are rare events…………. Agreed !!
………….suppose your son (or daughter) does something stupid and seeks your forgiveness. You observe he/she is sincere in their asking and you give it. Now part of being in your good graces is you provide 3 square meals a day. But suddenly you stop feeding them. Your spirit deprives them of what they need to cope and survive. That (to me) exceeds cruelty………………..While I appreciate your example I think your struggle can be boiled down to the problem of pain/evil/injustice and a loving all-powerful God if I understand your point correctly. I understand your struggle as this has perplexed many many people. For me it goes back to understanding that all that exists is not so much about us as it is about Him. Evil is real and exists in my opinion and if you think about it what truly makes something evil? Where does your concept of what makes something evil come from? Why is killing evil? Is evil not defined by the creator of all things as anything that opposes His character and essence? Anger is not necessarily evil in the Bible but we are instructed not to sin in our anger. God expresses in human terms that he can have a righteous anger and still not sin. But the evil one has an anger that is not holy and leads to the embodiment of sin or evil. So when I say that each and every human has sinned I am stating that evil has entered into this creation and it does bring pain, hardship, struggle, injustice, betrayal, death, deception, etc etc….It is within this context that a God who loves his creation has chose to express his righteousness and supremacy over this evil by conquering it with good and by subjecting himself to that evil (ie the passion and cross of Christ). God being in nature a God of justice, and wrath as well as love and mercy will now be able to express all of his qualities to the glory of His name without violating the freedom of man to make choices about following evil or good. The nature of man being evil i believe then requires a nature change if he is to submit to the Lord and His word this being what occurs when one repents and receives the forgiveness God demonstrated through the person and work of His son Jesus upon the cross and verified through His resurrection to satisfy the holiness and justice of God for the sin of those who would receive His free offer of salvation so that God’s characteristics again are expressed and yet not compromised. Thanks again for you sincerity and enduring my long posts. I enjoy our conversations. God bless you SPOCK have a good nights sleep.
Report Post »GdHUs
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 2:23amAfter a trillion, trillion, trillion years is finished eternity is just beginning. Is it fair for a person who missed heaven for any reason, small or large, to suffer that long? If you knew God like I know Him it just doesn’t add up. One plus one isn’t adding up to two. The bible says God’s mercy endureth forever, that He is a just God, that He is a God of love. The longer I live the more amazed I am at how merciful and loving He is; at least to me, and the bible says He is no respecter of persons. Would an earthly judge sentence a man to life in prison for j-walking? How much better is God than a man?
Report Post »So what’s the answer? The bible says it over and over and over, but it seems no one is listening. It says,”The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE” In an informal search I found it in 44 places in the bible! What part of death doesn’t the Christian world understand? Your punishment then is the destruction and death of your soul which could have been immortal and lived in a place frighteningly beautiful forever
watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 10:00am@ GDHUS……….I know it is very difficult doctrine for people but you have to be careful about applying human reasoning that is incomplete in knowledge and allow God to reveal the reality of things spiritual. Jesus said in Matt 25 the following…….. 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” ………………
In the original language the same word used for eternal life is the same word used ofr eternal punishment by Jesus himself so then what you use for eternal life you must use for eternal punishment or be inconsistent. Also in revelation……Revelation 14:11
Report Post »And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” …………
The construction of this verse in the original language communicates a torment that last forever not in the sense of unchanging but as a measure of time hence the qualification of day and night forever and ever. It truly is unavoidable. I do not know if you are JW in which case I would better understand your statement. Thanks for commenting.
Cerealface
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 10:20amYou guys still haven‘t realized you’re reading a book?
Hey, I heard other religions have books too.
Report Post »Hey, I bet if I were born in a different part of the world I’d be into a different religion.
Fancy that.
ltb
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 10:35amFor those of you who are wondering what happened to people before Jesus, I’m not sure about what happened AFTER Moses was given the law, but the Bible says “For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law” (Romans 5:13). Since the Bible says sin is not imputed when there is no law, that would mean those who died before the law was given to Moses (i.e., even those in Sodom and Gomorrah, and those who were wiped out during the Great Flood), did not suffer eternal punishment for their sins, since their sins were not imputed to them. On the other hand, the Bible says that anyone “who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy” (Hebrews 10:28) and the Bible makes it very clear that anyone who rejects the gospel of Jesus is worthy of much worse punishment than those who rejected Moses’ law (Hebrews 10:29). Why anyone would want to reject the awesome gift of Jesus’ sacrifice is beyond me, though, and quite frankly, I have no pity whatsoever for anyone who does such a foolish thing.
Report Post »Oil_Robb
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 11:23amAnother sheep in wolves clothing
Report Post »ronschnarr@yahoo.com
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 12:06pmWow, you completely missed the end of the article. I have been known to skip over stuff to and just state my opinion so I won’t be condemning, but the problem is that most Christians skip over Jesus teachings to and go straight to their churches theology. My message to you. Read the Bible and then read this article.
“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.”. ~Rom 2:13-15
Jesus Christ agrees with Rob Bell.
Report Post »We do to: http://ncbv.org/?p=433
emartin35
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 12:22pmThere is no Hell. Period. In a couple of thousand years, the historians will look back on fundamentalist evangelical Christianity and realize how far humanity has progressed. They will look back on the Hell preaching folk like historians today look back on ancient people who believe the Earth was flat, there were demons, ghosts and dragons, heaven and God lived in the clouds, the Sun was an actual God, etc.
Report Post »Scruff
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 12:55pm@ “Awakened One” – you say, “No loving God would condemn his ignorant children to eternity in torment for a few short years of misunderstanding”. You’re right that 1 Jn 4:8 states clearly that God is love, but it‘s clear throughout the whole of scripture that He’s also a holy, righteous judge (among other attributes). By your way of thinking, would a Loving God condemn His own innocent Son to death? Ironically (intentionally) the very next verse (1 Jn 4:9) reads: “In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.” Sounds a lot like John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” . . . whosoever believeth in Him. . . the others perish. Get the big picture, or prepare to say “hello” to Gandhi. Further irony – the verses preceeding 1 Jn 4:7-8 are a warning against false teachers.
“A text without a context is a pretext.”
Report Post »Anti_Spock
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 1:12pmWATCH.. you are very articulate in your writing. I want to respond to your specific beliefs…
“I completely agree with you that sin effected the whole of creation men, animals and the Earth itself.”
Some say sin, I say nature. When you look at how creatures adapt to their environment, and when you consider all creatures reproduce at numbers far greater than what the environment can sustain (Example: One salmon lays up to 7500 eggs but only a fraction survive in the wild) you begin to see the beauty of life in a physical environment, where everything is feeding on everything else. It seems violent, but it isn’t. Taking the salmon example, if every offspring survived to live a full life (then multiply that by every species) the planets resources would become extinct.
“I would state is that the condition of death is common to every one so in this regard the ultimate final result is not indiscriminate but rather universal.” I completely agree. Our difference is behind the meaning of death; yours spiritually based; mine nature based. Do you agree with some religious beliefs that animals go to heaven? Makes me say hmmmmm. I actually agree with that notion except I believe energy from all life continues on in ways we do not understand>>> Life being manifested energy.
“I think your struggle can be boiled down to the problem of pain/evil/injustice and a loving all-powerful God” I’m not struggling with my belief. While I’m not going to thump my chest and proclaim a degree of goodness, I do believe in Humanity. That we are all connected. That we all came from a common ancestor. That our silliness over skin color can be seen in nature everyday, but the dark colored moths haven’t built up alliances over the light colored moths, or vice versa. Everything man needs in order to get along is right in front of our nose, in physical form. Yet we reject what our eyes see in favor of a belief in something we have never seen. That just seems off to me.
Anyway I think we have had a good discussion. I’m not someone who can be swayed though (just telling you straight.) I will read your response but won’t reply as this thread is getting old… I‘m sure we’ll pick up somewhere on a religious thread.
If you allow me, thank you for your civility. I think you would make a great neighbor.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 1:48pmI just read something in the Bible that I’ve never noticed before. Evidently, those who died before the Law were given an opportunity to be saved after they died (notice the second sentence, 1 Pe 3:19).
“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.” (1 Pe 3:18-22)
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 1:58pm@ SPOCK…..thank you friend the feeling is mutual….
Report Post »Scruff
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 2:24pm“Awakened One” – you say, “No loving God would condemn his ignorant children to eternity in torment for a few short years of misunderstanding”. You’re right that 1 Jn 4:8 states clearly that God is love, but it‘s clear throughout the whole of scripture that He’s also a holy, righteous judge (among other attributes). By your way of thinking, would a Loving God condemn His own innocent Son to death? Ironically (intentionally) the very next verse (1 Jn 4:9) reads: “In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.” Sounds a lot like John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” . . . whosoever believeth in Him. . . the others perish. Get the big picture, or prepare to say “hello” to Gandhi. Further irony – the verses preceeding 1 Jn 4:7-8 are a warning against false teachers.
“A text without a context is a pretext.”
Report Post »Robert W
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 10:48pmMaybe God’s trying to wake you up pal so you dont go to the place you dont believe in.
Report Post »GEW
Posted on April 7, 2011 at 10:53pmWhat do you mean there is no hell. Has anyone looked around today!
Report Post »strongbad
Posted on April 8, 2011 at 12:01am@Leadership- uh. he gets it. he said the same thing you did… please re-read the statement.
Report Post »cece959
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 10:25amAmen.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on April 6, 2011 at 6:40pmHe does not teach that everyone will be save by God unconditionally. That is simply bad reporting.
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