Indoctrination? Secular Couple Fights to Have Pro-Atheism Book Distributed to Canadian Schoolchildren
- Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:15pm by
Billy Hallowell
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An atheist couple is making headlines for their push to distribute an atheism book to Canadian schoolchildren through the public education system. Rene and Anna Chouinard have been working feverishly to have the book, “Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children and Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist” given out to children attending the District School Board of Niagara in Ontario.
Rene and Anna have three kids in the education system and they’ve been in a battle with the board over the controversial book for more than two years. According to the Toronto SUN, the couple follows “a religion-free way of life” and, naturally, they purportedly want to see others — particular impressionable children – pursue the same avenue. As a result, they’d like to see “Just Pretend” make its way into the hands of fifth grade students in the public school district.
On the surface, some will find their quest bizarre, but the couple’s history fighting with the board provides insight into their reasoning for continuing their atheistic charge. The argument with officials commenced after the Chouinards’ began railing against the distribution of Gideon International Bibles within the school district (the organization has been giving Bibles out to public school kids since 1936, although the practice was banned back in April in a separate district).
After realizing that the holy book was being handed out to students, Rene and Anna, too, wanted a book that represents their humanistic worldview to be made available to school children. However, after initial attempts, they were unsuccessful in getting permission to distribute “Just Pretend.”
Photo Credit: NiagaraThisWeek.com
So, the couple petitioned the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario on August 20 and they were granted a hearing to explore the issue further. While a date has not yet been set, the couple is elated that their views on the matter will be heard. In the wake of the decision to grant the family a chance to argue their case, Rene said, “This is a solid decision by the tribunal that is good for society. We would like to see religion completely removed from the classroom.”
He also said that, if Gideon Bibles are given out, then other groups, too, should have their voices heard through dissemination of books that represent their theological worldviews. “This is not fair for people who may believe in other religions,” he said on Tuesday, according to the SUN. In Rene’s view, Jews should have Torahs available and Muslims should have access to Korans.
This argument is noteworthy, considering that The District School Board of Niagara loosened its regulations back in 2010 to purportedly allow for additional texts from other faiths outside of the Christian realm to be made available. NiagaraThisWeek.com has more (based on its 2010 report):
On Feb. 23 [2010] the school board replaced its existing policy, which allowed Gideon International to distribute New Testaments to Grade 5 students within the board, with a new policy which opens the door for other religious groups to solicit information to students. The new policy caters to Niagara’s diverse population, said spokesperson Brett Sweeney.
“We have many different students of different cultures and faith in Niagara and we wanted to be more inclusive and reflect that diversity,” Sweeney said, noting religion is not taught in the classroom. “We have heard from parents who appreciate that material is available and from one who doesn’t. This policy strikes a good balance between both.”
In this same article, Rene seemed anything but interested in defending the rights of other religious groups. In fact, he made it clear that faith has no place at all in the classroom (a sentiment that, in fairness, has come up, as noted above, in the current debate).
Photo Credit: FILE
“I object to public schools pushing religion. A school is not the place to push religion — no matter what religion it is,” he said. “We send our kids to public schools because we don’t want them to learn religion” (he did say that learning about faith in a cultural or historical sense is acceptable, though).
As the controversy continues, the school board maintains that no one was discriminated against and that the atheist book the family sought to have handed out was “inappropriate” for the children who would be receiving it. A description for the book reads, “Autobiographical story of journeying from fundamentalist/evangelical minister to atheist. Includes criticism of religion, fallacies and harm of Christianity, and invocation of freethought, reason and humanism.”
In 2010, when the family was just beginning its complaint against the district, the ways in which the Bibles are distributed were explained in detail. It seems the books aren’t simply handed out. Instead, there are some steps to take before kids can get a copy:
Gideon bibles have been available at roughly half of the board’s 98 schools for a number of years, said [district spokesperson Brett] Sweeney. The religious material is available to students who request it and have written consent from their parent or guardian. Once the school receives permission from a parent, the material is distributed outside of school hours, Sweeney noted. The bibles are not “pushed” on students in any way, he added.
Distribution of religious material is not a major part of what the school board does, said Sweeney, noting the focus is, and has always been, on improving literacy and numeracy in students.
Interestingly, the “Just Pretend” book was penned by Dan Barker, the co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, an atheist group based in Madison, Wisconsin. To say that he and his group are controversial is, based on TheBlaze’s extensive coverage over the past two years, an understatement.
(H/T: Toronto SUN)
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Comments (122)
South Philly Boy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:55pmCommunist
Report Post »wvernon1981
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:03pmImagine that. Few if anyone on here actually read the story from the Sun but rather went off of the headline alone. The family only did this in order to prove that they’re being discriminated against by not being allowed to distribute their material while the Gideons are allowed to distribute theirs.
Report Post »Wolfgang the Gray
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:53pmYEA! I don’t live in Canada! If Atheists don’t want to be forced to learn about God, why is it ok to force others to learn about Atheists? More double standard.
Report Post »dlivelli
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:41pmAll I have to say to this is read “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn……it WILL change the way you look at everything that has gone on since 9-11……. and all that is going on now……as well as what will come depending on what we do. Start in the morning….you will not put it down till you finish!
Report Post »davecorkery
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 11:05amRead it. You shouldn’t put it down, since you’ll be able to use it when you run out of toilet paper. Trash.
Report Post »Trance
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:30pmIt’s funny that Christians will support school prayer, but think something like this shouldn’t be allowed. The first time a federal judge allows school prayer, get ready for the onslaught of Muslims, Atheists, etc. suing to have their religious views taught in school as well. The courts wouldn’t have a leg to stand on in denying them. Heck, if I was principle of a public school, and some federal judge allowed school prayer, I guarantee there would be a prayer over the loudspeaker to tree spirits and elves every day.
Report Post »Real Freedom
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 12:46amBeliefs are not equal. Praying to the tree elves or teaching that there is no God does not promote the values necessary for freedom to exist in a society. The Bible does.
Report Post »davecorkery
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 11:09amAll beliefs are equal. The bible teaches no more values than any other self help book. It was written by men, not god, and is therefore full of human vice and desires. Some values. Handing your daughters over to sex starved mobs for gang rape, and then sending your daughters away since they are unclean ain’t much of a value for me. Never mind all the smiting and smoting. Wake up, people.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:22pmOh look at the hypocrites push their religious beliefs on others? In this case it is non-belief. Therefore, atheism is a religion just like Catholics, Baptist, etc. Therefore, it is not allowed in schools.
If Canadians follow U.S. manta, this would fall under Separation of Church and State. In this case, the church is these two women and their book.
FN Hypocrites.
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:37pmDelusional.
Report Post »JJJB4EVERFREE
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 6:13amJust a heads-up, Rene is a male name. Did you even look at the picture above?
Report Post »“[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence.”
Noah Webster
No more need be said!!!
StandingOnMyHead
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 10:43amSeparation of Church and State was designed to keep United States’ government out of freedom of religion and not religion out of government. The amendment has flipped to the other distorted view. Public schools are government schools and therefore should not be involving themselves. However, they want to control all things including schools and religion. I say let people pay into government schools via their tax dollars if they want to be controlled, otherwise leave my money alone and let me pay for my child’s education where I feel they will best be served! It is the only way to take the “hypocrisy” out of the equation. Canada, well you’re a different story.
Report Post »Hephzibah
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:17pm“We would like to see religion completely removed from the classroom.”
From back in the ‘60’s, decent people should have been telling these fools the same thing my dad used to say when I asked for something ridiculous: “People in hell want ice water. Too bad.”
Report Post »Lordcsmith
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 3:59pmKeep in mind that freedom of religion was established before the government became the arbiter of every aspect of our lives. It is easier to practice freedom of religion when you get to raise your kids, grow your food and own your own business and live on your own property. Now, we have regulatory committees, licensing bureaus, department of Family services, Compulsory education, Eminent domain, EEOC, and a host of other “we’ll tell you how to behave” agencies. Who needs religion when government is so willing to take that over for you.
Report Post »hi
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 3:37pm” Includes criticism of religion, fallacies and harm of Christianity”
They don’t want religion taught, just the ability to trash it? That’s ridiculous. If they want to pass out a book, they shouldn’t discuss any religion good or bad.
Report Post »TEIN
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:51pm“…We would like to see religion completely removed from the classroom.”….Come on Rene, say it correctly…you want any competition for the Atheist Religion removed, so that Atheism will be the recognized state religion…
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:40pmAthiestism is a religion? Is there no bounds to the ignorance?.
Report Post »Twobyfour
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 11:29pmI’d a belief based philosophy. It shouldn’t be a religion, but many an atheist behave as it were. Some of them are intolerant of other belief systems, militant and zealots.
From the modus operandi POV, they behave exactly like militant religionists.
Report Post »Twobyfour
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 11:38pmIt’s…
Report Post »damn autocompletion. Turning it off. Feh.
tankyjo
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:18pmRemove religion from the schools indeed????????? Except the worship of baal.
Report Post »Maxim Crux
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:01pmAtheism is a religion. It is a belief and a faith that man is the supreme being.
Report Post »God_Is_Not
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:21pmYou clearly have no idea what atheism is. You only make it what you want it to be in order to slander others.
Report Post »USACommoner
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:51pmAnd you, sir or madam, have no idea what Christianity is or about its importance to others. You only make it what you want it to be in order to ridicule others. Just because you‘ve never experienced it doesn’t mean no one else has. If someone wants to believe in something they feel strongly about, who are you to say otherwise…? Are you so all-important that everyone must be like you? Seems like some serious introspection is in order here…
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 6:16pm@ GOD-IS…I find it interesting in my many debates with atheists that they typically stress fervantly that their position is one of a “lack” of belief in God (I don’t know if you are a strong, weak, or militant atheist or agnostic) because they desperately want to avoid being branded a “religion” for both ideological and strategical (access to public forums like schools) purposes. However, if we evaluate more critically and profoundly we find that if someone has a belief in God or a god then this foundational belief shapes every aspect of their worldview (how they see and interpret everything in the world), conversely, if someone does not have a belief in God or a god they too use that conclusion to entirely shape their worldview. So it is my assertion that if one lacks a belief in God, to answer the 4 basic worldview questions, it must be replaced by a belief in something else (humanism, agnosticism etc) to formulate a worldview, which ALL individuals possess. Secondly, I would point out that according to Clifford Geertz’s definition of religion atheism itself does possess all the necessary components of a religion. Nonetheless, I am not so concerned whether atheists accpet this label or not as much as I am with the assumption that their worldview is somehow superior or somehow more worthy of proselytizing in the public schools (even though it already is to a degree) then the majority worldview in this country that espouses belief in a Creator. Thank you…..
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:41pmIgnorance beyond belief.
Report Post »God_Is_Not
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:43pm@USA
What an incredibly ridiculous response. No one mentioned Christianity and no one ridiculed Christians. Introspection? Look at your response and what you responded to and then tell me more about introspection…
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 9:26pm@ MAC…I’m more interested in discussion and debate then ad hominem. Do you care to elaborate or just denigrate? Thank you….
Report Post »God_Is_Not
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 2:24am@Sleazy
No disrespect, but you can‘t just say I subscribe to ’something‘ and if you don’t then you‘re also subscribing to ’something’.
For example:
If we evaluate more critically and profoundly we find that if someone has a belief in their tattoo then this foundational belief shapes every aspect of their worldview (how they see and interpret everything in the world), conversely, if someone does not have a belief in tattoos they too use that conclusion to entirely shape their worldview. So it is my assertion that if one lacks a belief in tattoos, to answer the 4 basic worldview questions, it must be replaced by a belief in something else (humanism, agnosticism etc) to formulate a worldview, which ALL individuals possess. Secondly, I would point out that according to Clifford Geertz’s definition of religion atheism itself does possess all the necessary components of a tattoo. Nonetheless, I am not so concerned whether atheists accpet this label or not as much as I am with the assumption that their worldview is somehow superior or somehow more worthy of proselytizing in the public schools (even though it already is to a degree) then the majority worldview in this country that espouses belief in a tattoo. Thank you…..
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 8:30am@ GOD IS…..I’m afraid that is the fallacy of weak analogy because tattoos do NOT have any bearing on how those 4 basic questins are answered, but a belief or lack of belief in God or a god most assuredly does. This is seen in every single person on the planet. Every single person answers these questions even if they don’t realize it. For instance, if I believe God is the Creator then the answer to those 4 questions are answered according to that presupposition. However, if I do not believe in God then those questions are answered entriely different. The way in which we answer those 4 basic questions are kind of glasses that then shape the way we see the rest of the world and how we answer every subordinate question below it. This is quite a basic concept within anthropology and really is foundationaly to how societies develop the way in which they do because of the predominant worldview of that society. Think about if someone believes in God that shapes how they view govenrments role, education, science, homosexuality, abortion, marriage, business and on and on. If someone does not believe their is an ultimate Judge of our lives then their beliefs about those topics can be entirely different and even often times oppossed to the first person exemplified. Tattoos do not influence one way or another the answer to those four basic questions in any meaningful way so it is an illogical comparison (no disrespect intended). Thank you for your time….
Report Post »The-Monk
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:58pmWhat was that song?
“Teachers, leave them kids alone”…..
Report Post »v15
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 3:01pmI love Pink Floyd but you really don‘t want to know Roger Waters’ politics.
Report Post »Twobyfour
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 11:40pmYea, he’s a loon,99% proof.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:54pm“The argument with officials commenced after the Chouinards’ began railing against the distribution of Gideon International Bibles within the school district (the organization has been giving Bibles out to public school kids since 1936, although the practice was banned back in April in a separate district).
After realizing that the holy book was being handed out to students, Rene and Anna, too, wanted a book that represents their humanistic worldview to be made available to school children. However, after initial attempts, they were unsuccessful in getting permission to distribute “Just Pretend.”
…
He also said that, if Gideon Bibles are given out, then other groups, too, should have their voices heard through dissemination of books that represent their theological worldviews. “This is not fair for people who may believe in other religions,” he said on Tuesday, according to the SUN. In Rene’s view, Jews should have Torahs available and Muslims should have access to Korans.”
Not sure where Canada stands on a separation of church and state, but if this happened in the US, I’d fully agree with the atheists getting to pass out their book if Christians get to pass out Bibles in a public school (though likely passing out the Bible within the school itself would be unconstitutional in the first place).
Either need to allow all viewpoints or none. In the US, at least. Anyone know if Canada’s constitution is similar?
Report Post »Atrum Angelis
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:55pmThere is no clause in the Canadian Constitution or the Charter of rights and freedoms for the separation of Church and State, nor is there an equivalent of the Establishment clause found in the US Constitution.
Religion is mentioned in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms twice: first in section II
“2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association. ”
and again in section 29 (though not explicitly, though the intent was to allow religious schools to continue):
“29. Nothing in this Charter abrogates or derogates from any rights or privileges guaranteed by or under the Constitution of Canada in respect of denominational, separate or dissentient schools. ”
I would add that both the Charter and Constitution begin:
Report Post »“Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law…”
Lord_Frostwind
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 5:03pmIt seems like a waste of resources to me, Bibles aren’t too expensive, parent’s and children who want them should get them on their own. Still, if there is going to be a separation it must cut both ways, if you can’t teach Christianity, Secular Humanism goes right out with it. No more of this bull of “oh it’s philosophy so we can teach it,” if Christians can’t push theirs, you can’t push yours.
Report Post »cookcountypatriot
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:52pmmy kid would never ever read that crap……..if progressives want to abuse thier children with that crap thats thier sick twisted buisness,,,,,and years down the road when your kid is strung out on dope and a leech on the system totally void of morals…we can look at you mom and dad and say…YOU BUILT THAT!…AND YOU TAKE CARE OF IT….AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE ,,,WE WILL SERVE THE LORD!
Report Post »antitheist
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 7:22pmYou would rather they read the biblical “crap”?
Hosea 13:16 – “16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”
Yea, I fully support distributing a book with infanticide and abortion to schoolchildren.
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:44pmThats right, by God, I’ll be damned if my kids grow up smarter than me. Hell, yeah. Praise the lord and pass the ammo.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 9:38am@ ANTITHEIST…I’m not sure what problem you see with that verse? If God is the creator of life then that means he is also the Judge of that life according to the standards of the character that make him God (rightness and wrongness). If you believe the verse you posted, then we must also remember that that same God said that the wages of sin (disobedience to his proscribed way of living that reflects his character) is death. Being that he has created life and therefore can justly take that life when it is used to rebel against him (Samaria rebelled in spite of God’s continued longsuffering, mercy and repeated calls for repentance). I’m not sure why you ascribe evil or wrong doing to him? The other thing you fail to illuminate in your example is that God gave many instances and opportunites for these people to repent, however, they persisted in their rebeliion eventually exhausting the patience of a holy and just God and received in their consequences the wages (what they earned) for the decisions and actions that they were forewarned would occur, yet they listened not. While the consequences are terrible it was of their own choosing as they had been given the precription for avoiding it. Thank you….
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 9:58am@ MAC…your fallacious statement is rooted in your assumption that someone who does not believe in God is somehow more intellignet or “smarter” than one who does. This is simply an illogical statement because it is not a truthful one. Intelligence level and the validity of a worldview really has no correlation to one another in the sense that there are unintelligent and intellignet people who hold many different views and conclusions about the world we live in. Also, arguing the validity of a belief based on the intelligence or ignorance of a person or persons holding or opposing that belief is guilty of the fallacy of appeal to authority. Thank you….
Report Post »antitheist
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 10:30am@sleazy
Report Post »I wasn’t arguing whether the action was just or unjust, just the logic of giving a book with such graphic descriptions of violence and sex to schoolchildren. I mean, I see so many christian groups trying to ban books for the most minute of offenses, without judging the context of that offense. Yet, they turn a blind eye to their own book, which has verses like the aforementioned one, and verses like Ezekiel 23:20. Again, I’m not arguing about the context of these verses, just their inappropriateness for school children at a surface level.
SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 10:38am@ ANTITHEIST….Ah I understand my friend. And in your post calrifying your assertion I think we find common ground for I too believe that there are certain sections of the Bible that should not be communicated to little children, but just as the movies we watch there should be age appropriate discernment to determine when our children are ready to learn certain things. I believe Jesus said to his own disciples, “I have much to tell you, but you are not yet ready.” Thanks ANTI for clearing that up. You have a good day my friend. I think we wholeheartedly agree on that issue.
Report Post »v15
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:46pmI believe it can be safely assumed that everyone – both secular and religious – is indoctrinated by their environment from Day 1. Parents, family members, school, and religious institutions indoctrinate ALL people.
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:47pmNo, that can not be assumed. Some of us are smarter than others. Some of us read beyond what our parents or teachers tell us too. Some of us rebel against the status quo and look for the leading edge of existance. Some of us refuse to go quitely into the night. Some of us refuse to comply, or be conditioned.
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 10:11pmI think MAC just proved your point V….thank you….
Report Post »AllLost
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:44pmIf there is a book and a belief it is religion with or without a deity.
Report Post »CatB
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:59pmAgree .. don’t get it .. if you don’t believe . fine … but why do you have to try to push Non Belief RELIGION on others. If you really don’t believe … what do you care? These people are so threatened by others believing ? Very intolerant indeed.
Report Post »GodHatesFigs
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 3:59pmI’ll try to answer as honestly as possible. Some people care about what is actually true. They care that others’ false beliefs can cause actual harm in the real world. People’s beliefs do not live in a vacuum, they affect their decision making and actions. As an example, some people do not believe in getting medical help for their children and choose to pray to their god for the cure. That causes actual harm to the children not receiving proper medical attention. That is just one, obvious, example, but their are many more.
Report Post »GodHatesFigs
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:00pmIs the South Beach Diet a religion?
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:08pmGod – Apparently you don’t care about the truth.
Report Post »GodHatesFigs
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:13pmOops, the south beach diet was directed at another comment.
Report Post »@GIT-R-DONE
I do care about the truth. How is it apparent that I don’t?
macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:51pmNever heard of the Shakesspere religion? Never heard of the Math religion, never heard of the Fairytale religion. I’ve seen books on Poetry, and I believe in poetry as a healing element, does that make it a religion. maybe you better rethink that statement.
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 5:25pmGod – You want to tell parents what they can and can’t do with their children for medical cures.
Report Post »GodHatesFigs
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 11:02pmYou think it is ok for a parent to withhold life saving treatment from their child because of an unsubstantiated belief? Well I don‘t think that children should undergo torment because of their parents’ immoral beliefs.
Report Post »vaman
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:44pmBiblical teaching should never be allowed in any public forum, to include Canadian schools. The brainwashing and indoctrination used by religion to control people should be kept in places where people chose to learn it (church, home, parochial school). The public forum is not the place for your particular brand of superstitious belief. Conversely, atheism is not a religion. It is based on the best scientific data available, making it appropriate for the school environment. Contrary to the popular and ill informed belief of gullible people, your religion (in the case of every blaze story), christianity is based purely on credulous information that is, at best illogical and at worst the greatest lie ever told. Either way, keep it away from children and schools that want to teach something meaningful and useful.
Report Post »THE_SUPPLANTER
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:05pm@Vaman
Biblical teachings? What, are we going to scrub laws that ban killing or are based on Biblical teachings (steal, rape, etc.)? If not, why? What makes killing wrong? Or anything wrong for that matter?
In an honest question, if there is no God why should Western societal laws which were founded upon Biblical teachings be allowed to limit me? Why should human life possess any value above a common house fly, which I can kill with impunity? The “ability to reason”, you say? Reason would suggest that mankind will eventually go extinct through the process of evolution, and if there is no God what does it matter that humans go extinct through murder?
Therefore, I would ask, again, why should human life be valued? Based upon pro-death advocates, I already know the answer to that… human life is not valued above the common house fly. After all, we are simply a bag of meat and bones eking out a meager existence, right? Why exiting the womb suddenly changes their perspectives, I don’t know.
What I do know is that something within mankind encourages us to be good. It is not the ability to reason alone, but rather the whisperings of the eternal soul that yearns for improvement and the betterment of mankind. Sure we can ignore it as much as we want, but it is there nonetheless. If you choose to listen, you may just recognize the spark of divinity within you.
Report Post »macpappy
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:58pm@THE_SUPPLANTERTHE
Report Post »Really? So you think that these things are wrong because the bible says they are wrong? You can not be that blinded by your faith.
The bible says these things are wrong because they are, they always were, and they always will be. It would not matter wit, if the bible even existed, these things would still be wrong.
OK, since I’ve explained that to you, let me elevate your knowledge a little bit more.
God did not create man in his image. Man created God in “his” image. Religion is, and always has been the method that is used to keep billions of poor folks from killing millions of rich folks.
Class over, my work is done here.
Next.
THE_SUPPLANTER
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 12:23am@MacPappy
If I am capturing your “lesson” correctly, you are stating “They are wrong because they have always been wrong.” Did I sum that up correctly? I would again ask, taking your premise that God is a superstition, at what point in man’s evolution did these things become “wrong.“ Look at nature and tell me where killing has been considered ”wrong.” Many species kill their own species in order to procure mates and ensure offspring. Where in our evolution did we suddenly have a mandate dictating that our killing our own species is “wrong?” If I were a cynical guy, I might just take up your own argument and suggest it was the strong who created it to make sure the weaklings would not ban together to overthrow the control they had over their human pride/tribe.
Your “lesson” of “it is, therefore it is” was neither convincing, nor educational. You apparently ascribe to the notion of eternal truth, but if there is eternal truth, where did it come from? I call that source of truth God. And if man were to create god in his image, they would look a lot more like the Hellenist gods of Greece & Rome, fallible, fickle beings. That is not the Christian God. He is a perfect God, unchanging, the source of truth. Man is free to choose to follow God’s truths (i.e. kill, rape, steal, etc.), but as you so nicely point out, man has a tendency to ignore, abuse, and even usurp His name for wicked purposes.
So how about it, when did those things become “wrong” in the c
Report Post »THE_SUPPLANTER
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 12:36amCorrection:: (i.e. NOT kill, steal, rape, etc.)
Report Post »SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 8:56am@ MAC..if somehting has “always” been wrong then it is an eternal moral truth. Since moraltiy is a conceptual reality, for it to exist, means it must be a thought in an equally eternal conscious Mind outside of humanity, otherwise it really does not exist as you stated. Otherwise, it would be something we invent, rather than something we discover as we go along, meaning that if it has always existed we only discover it, not invent it. Also, if we invented it, then it really is relative because it is not the standard of anything external to ourselves. If it is relative then nothing can ultimately be declared right or wrong because if it is invented, one mind can invent a different morality than another. In that case you have 2 competing moralities with no standard to determine which one is better or right (even assuming one would be better at all). Therefore using the laws of logic (themselves eternal and absolute) we must conclude that if morality has “always” existed then there MUST be an equally eternal conscious mind external to humanity otherwise, morality cannot possible exist in an eternal manner. If, however, you assert morality is NOT eternal, then it is relative (changeable), if it is relative then your statements of morality (an absolute truth) becomes self-refuting by violating the law of non-contradiction. If your statement is correct, then it is wrong because you stated an absolute morality in your statement. So how do you answer your dilemma? Thank you.
Report Post »Small World
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:44pmlet them have there Pro-Atheism as long as they have a Pro-Christian also.
Report Post »TROLLMONGER
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:43pmIndoctrination? LOL…thats a hoot considering the fact that the chrisitanity is the largest form of indoctrination in the history of civilization.
Report Post »v15
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:58pmChristianity is indoctrination, but so is Atheism. And both accuse their opponents of being close-minded. This is why it is important that a person exercise some critical thinking and come to their own conclusion. Don’t let religions or atheism bully you into thinking a certain way.
Report Post »GodHatesFigs
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:20pmAtheism is taking the null hypothesis, which is a cornerstone of critical thinking.
Report Post »THE_SUPPLANTER
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 7:40pm@God[LovesAtheists]
I would agree that taking the null hypothesis is the start, but then you must test or experiment to check the validity of that hypothesis. Adopting the hypothesis without checking its validity surely cannot lead to a valid conclusion, especially if you have not experimented upon the words of Christ. How do you experiment with the words of Christ? You would have to live according to their teachings.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:30pmChristianity is indoctrination
I constantly see my friends talking to their young children(2 and younger) about Jesus, about what the Bible says about God, etc etc etc
Atheism can only be indoctrination if I constantly tell my future kid, “there is no God” and continually talk about how there isn’t a God.
If I don’t approach the subject of the existence of a God, it’s not indoctrination by not mentioning it.
My friends don’t tell their kids, “there might be a God.“ ”we believe this is the word of God“ ”I personally believe in a God”
They tell them, “There is a God” “The Bible IS the word of God” “I know God exists.”
If a kid were to come and ask me about the existence of a God, I would say, “I don‘t think a God exists and here’s why…..”
When someone asks me about God, Ghosts, and other things that seem to strain rational thinking, it’s usually, “Well do you believe in(blank)?” I always respond with, “I don’t think(blank) exists.” I try to make it clear that it’s not about a “belief” but about “thinking” and evidence.
It seems like religion has gone from a form of belief, to a form of fact.
It’s no longer, “I believe in God” but now it is “I know God exists”
I had a friend tell me his version of Christianity is both based on faith and on fact. When I told him that once you have fact, you no longer need faith, and that without faith, religion is meaningless, he disagreed, but didn’t say why.
Report Post »ketchasketch
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:53pmmoderationisbest… your analogy that belief has warped into fact is disingenuous as they are two different entities. When a Christian says He believes in Christ, he/she is not saying that they do not know that He exists, but rather that they know He exists and they believe in Him… just as I know my wife exists and I believe in her… I trust in her… I place my faith in her. You cannot put your faith and belief in something that does not exist. You are using the wrong definition of belief… the one that purports that “I believe He exists” as opposed to “He exists and I believe in Him”.
Report Post »ketchasketch
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 8:55pmBecause the Bible never says that we have to believe He exists to have eternal life… we have to believe “in Him” to have eternal life. We have to place our lives in His hands to have eternal life, not simply believe in Him in your generic definition of the word believe. And we can know that He exists… it is proven… because I know He exists… what more proof do I need? If you don’t have the proof of His existence that you need, then you can say, “I don’t have proof”… not that there is no proof… because believers have proof.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 10:19pmWhy do you say you “believe in” your wife?
Wouldn’t a better statement be “based on the evidence I think that my wife is(whatever statement you’re trying to make)”
It’s also not disingenuous because it is my friend who said that his Christianity is both fact based and faith based.
Your post wasn’t a refutation of my point, it was a refutation of my friends stance.
When people ask me “do you believe in God?” they are asking me in the sense of a God’s existence not in the sense that you are trying to portray. They don’t come up to me and say, “well you already know a God exists, but do you believe IN him?”
Besides, if you know a God exists and you know what he’s supposedly done for you, you wouldn’t need to believe IN him. You would have all of the evidence, thus your belief is unnecessary and redundant.
It would be like me asking you “do you believe in dinosaurs?”
Well, you already know that dinosaurs existed, therefore you don’t need to believe IN dinosaurs.
I didn’t “believe in” the doctor who took out my appendix. I didn’t put my “faith” in the doctor.
I had tons of reasonable evidence that the doctor was capable of performing the necessary task.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 12:21am@KETCHASKETCH
According to your reasoning.
Allah exists because Muslims believe he does
Santa exists because children believe he does
Zeus believes because people believed he did
Once you have proof that something exists, you don’t need to “believe”
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:42pmEven an a non-believer I am repulsed by these atheist creeps and organisations whining about this and suing over that.
Christians, you have 100% of my support and solidarity. These attacks on your faith are ugly, mean-spirited and totalitarian.
I will gladly stand next to you and defend your natural RIGHT to believe and practice your faith however you see fit.
I encourage all other non-believers to do the same. If it can be done to them, it can be done to you!
Report Post »drphil69
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:41pmWell if they have to read this athiest book, then they should have to read the Torah, the New Testament, the Koran, etc., etc.
Why is it OK to push atheism in schools but prayer is not allowed? Why are liberals so insistent that THEIR “GOD” be shoved down our throats? Their “God” is the god of BIG GOVERNMENT, BIG UNIONS, AND BIG ENVIRONMENTALISM. The main difference is, we can PROVE their “god” doesn’t exist – big government fails every time its tried, unions destroy companies and jobs, and the environmentalists are outright liars who base their ‘beliefs’ in faked computer models that have no basis in reality (at least according to NASA and CERN).
Report Post »v15
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:49pmWhat’s YOUR proof that God exists and what kind of God is he?
Report Post »Twobyfour
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 11:33pmv15, what’s your proof that God does not exist?
Report Post »chips1
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:34pmLucifer and Obama are getting desperate.
Report Post »paperpushermj
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:30pmMaybe this is the couple I should ask?
Report Post ».
What Hospitals have Atheist built ?
How many Hungry have Atheist feed ?
How many Children have been Educated by Atheist ?
How many Universities have been built by Atheist ?
What is the Atheist response to what makes for a Good Society a Good Person ?
PATTY HENRY
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:33pmAsk them Where Conscience or Love or HOPE or JOY comes from…none of that is needed if we’re just evolving. I think it’s high time we CHRISTIANS and all RELIGIOUS DREW a LINE in the SAND.
Report Post »They can teach their kids anything they want to but not my kids!! MARANATHA!!
chips1
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:38pmWell….. I think…..you should…… Maybe…… Give me a hint!!!!!!!
Report Post »paperpushermj
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:41pmGood questions: I’ll add them to my list.
Report Post »GodHatesFigs
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:17pmHere are some atheist charities. http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 10:50pmAll of those are concepts of the mind.
Case solved.
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 5:26pmThe atheist charities are small compared to the religious ones. Not to mention that atheists tend to believe that the government should provide for all.
Report Post »red_white_blue2
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:29pmOh goodie, I get to comment first. Another group of Satin’s Heretics looking to do his bidding and further drag the population into the Den of Iniquity and Desolation. Perhaps you haven’t read our money-“In God We Trust”-ring a bell–Ding-Dong? This is a judeo-christian nation. This is not China, the middle-east or Russia. Are those countries pass out Bibles? I doubt it. Hence…figure out my point folks.
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:34pmIt’s Satan not satin.
Though I hear the Dark Lord looks mighty snappy in a red satin sash.
Report Post »PATTY HENRY
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:47pmWe knew who he was talking about, Dude. Aren‘t you the one that insists upon saying YOUR when you mean YOU’RE ? Enjoy your role as editor from your basement. PS: Nothing looks good on that
Report Post »dope in the WH…uh…Satan.
Locked
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:07pm“Oh goodie, I get to comment first. Another group of Satin’s Heretics looking to do his bidding and further drag the population into the Den of Iniquity and Desolation.”
^What Mrbutcher said.
“Perhaps you haven’t read our money-“In God We Trust”-ring a bell–Ding-Dong?”
…Canada’s money said that? I thought it said “a mari usque ad mare.” Latin, translates commonly to “From sea to sea.”
“This is a judeo-christian nation.”
… Canada?
“This is not China, the middle-east or Russia. Are those countries pass out Bibles? I doubt it.”
I don’t think “the middle-east” is a country, but let’s ignore that. China and Russia? Yes, you can buy Bibles in those countries. Looking for missionary trips, it’s fairly obvious that people will pass out bibles for free as well.
“Hence…figure out my point folks.”
Is it… you’re bad at reading articles? You don’t know much about Canada? You don’t know the first thing about other countries?
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:09pmLocked – Apparently you’re not smart enough to figure out that freedom of religion is illegal in China.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 4:35pm@Git
You don’t even make a good troll :-(
“Apparently you’re not smart enough to figure out that freedom of religion is illegal in China.”
Who said freedom of religion? I said you can buy bibles, or get them from missionaries. Christianity is restricted and operated only with state approval in China, but most certainly not illegal or not present:
“At least twenty million citizens worship in official churches. Government officials stated that there are more than 50,000 registered TSPM churches and 18 TSPM theological schools.
The Catholic Patriotic Association (CPA) reports that 5.3 million persons worship in its churches and it is estimated that there are an additional 12 million or more persons who worship in unregistered Catholic churches that do not affiliate with the CPA. According to official sources, the government-sanctioned CPA has more than 70 bishops, nearly 3,000 priests and nuns, 6,000 churches and meeting places, and 12 seminaries.
On August 30, 2010, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revealed its on-going efforts to negotiate with the Chinese authorities to regularize its activities in China. The LDS Church has had expatriate members worshiping in China for a few decades previous to this, but with many restrictions.”
Nice strawman, but you might want to be less obvious next time. Back under your bridge, Mr. Troll :-)
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 2:26amLocked – It‘s obvious that you’re the troll since if it’s government approved religion, it means no freedom of religion. Which is what you lefties want for this country.
So back under your bridge, troll.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 8:01am@Git
“It‘s obvious that you’re the troll since if it’s government approved religion, it means no freedom of religion. ”
Do I hear an echo? It’s like I just said “Yeah, there’s not religious freedom but Christianity is allowed in China and you can find Bibles easily,“ and you just repeat ”There’s no religious freedom!!”
Congrats, we agree on that point? Willing to admit you’re not responding to me yet? Trollolol
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 5:27pmLocked – Apparently you’re not smart enough to get that missionaries hand out Bibles in secret in China and will get arrested or executed if they get caught.
Report Post »momrules
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:28pmOh these poor simple minded atheist zealots. They happily and with forethought destroy not only their own chance at an eternity in God’s presence, they want to teach not just their kids but other peoples kids this mind rot.
God will judge them harshly and He will judge harshly any school authorities who allow this Godophobic drivel into their schools.
Please be praying everyone. Time is short. Eternity for us all is just one heartbeat away.
Report Post »thegreatcarnac
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 1:28pmI am tired of the minority telling the greater majorities what will happen and what they want. This is happening in the US and Canada. Atheist are pushing themselves into a corner with the homosexuals and perverts. When the backlash comes…it will come hard. Bye bye atheists.
Report Post »justangry
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:32pmCome on now. The backlash you’re referring to is alarming. Not every non believer is the same. I’m an agnostic, but I’m raising my daughter as a Christian, and I’ll stand with you to protect our religious freedom any day of the week.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 2:43pm“When the backlash comes…it will come hard. Bye bye atheists.”
A Christian does not threaten others. Who do you worship if not God?
Report Post »TeresaJ
Posted on August 29, 2012 at 5:45pm@ locked.
On the contrary, when freedom is threatened, backlash is exactly what formed this particular country. When you push to remove any mention of God from schools whatsoever, and also push to give materials like books on atheism and homosexuality to our children, you are taking away the freedoms and rights of the parent. How dare anyone say that they have the right to raise our children over us.
I hope the only “fighting back” that happens is in the courts. But if we exhaust every legal possibility, and our freedoms are being taken away, then you can bet a more serious backlash could be on the rise.
Atheist parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit, and refuse any materials they see fit, just as we do. What neither of us have a right to do, is force the other to either accept each others views, or to force the other stop practicing their own views.
This article might be about Canada, but it’s become all too familiar in the US as well. Oh yes, we are fighting back. Our ancestors came here for religious freedom, and we are not going to hand it over.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 8:03am@Teresaj
“I hope the only “fighting back” that happens is in the courts. But if we exhaust every legal possibility, and our freedoms are being taken away, then you can bet a more serious backlash could be on the rise.”
I ask you the same question. If Jesus said turn the other cheek, and you are threatening violence because… well, because you only allow bibles in school but ban other books?… who are you worshiping? It’s not God.
Report Post »Git-R-Done
Posted on August 30, 2012 at 5:30pmLocked – Apparently you didn’t read the whole story since the couple says that they want to ban the Bible yet allow for their atheist books to be passed out in schools.
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