Kansas City Christian Church Has Been Praying, Worshipping 24/7 For More Than 12 Years
- Posted on July 12, 2011 at 6:33am by
Billy Hallowell
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There are about 300,000 Protestant churches in America. While each is surely unique, most of them probably have worship services on Sundays (and, perhaps at one or two other mornings or evenings during the week). But, one church — Kansas City, Missouri’s International House of Prayer (IHOP) — has been in an ongoing prayer and worship service 24 hours per day, seven days per week since 1999. Literally. A live feed of the never-ending service can be found here. IHOP explains its service breakdown as follows:
There are two basic worship and prayer formats. Each twenty-four hour day is divided into six two-hour intercession sessions and six two-hour worship with the Word sessions which are more devotional in nature.
Below, Mike Bickle explains the cost — more than $100,000 per month — to run the technology associated with the movement:
The New York Times recently profiled the church, which was founded 12 years ago by Mike Bickle, a self-trained evangelical pastor. The church has a massive 1,000-member staff (they call themselves missionaries) who have abandoned their careers and moved to be near the church. These individuals spend several hours each day in prayer. In addition to an enormous staff, another 1,000 students attend the church’s Bible college where they engage in intense evangelical instruction. The Times has more:
The well-populated prayer room and the devout community growing up around it are at the epicenter of a little known but expanding national network: dozens of groups that are stressing perpetual prayer in a way seldom seen in modern America, said Marcus Yoars, the editor of Charisma, an evangelical magazine…
Mr. Bickle has won praise from many evangelicals, but he has also been criticized by some pastors for what they describe as unorthodox theology and a cultish atmosphere, charges that Mr. Bickle rejects. Some former students said they had been expelled for questioning the fascination with mystical healings, prophesies, angels and demons.
While some pastors believe that Bickle’s church is too extreme, others contend that the spiritual leader has gone too far in his belief that the Jesus‘ second coming will occur during the current generation’s life time. But, supporters fully embrace the never-ending worship and educational experience, claiming that it has changed their lives. Bickle believes that the non-stop prayer has a real-life impact on the world. The Times has more on IHOP:
The staff and students here are required to spend at least 25 hours a week in the prayer room, and they also engage in weekly fasts of a day or more. The focused worship, Mr. Bickle says, affects real-world events by weakening the demons and strengthening the angels that swirl among us. Most important, he says, the incantations, multiplied worldwide, may help usher in the long-awaited final days: seven years of bloody battles and disasters that will end with the Second Coming, with true Christians spirited to eternal bliss and everyone else doomed to hellfire.
Right Wing Watch posted a recent video in which Bickle calls Oprah a “cool,“ ”charming“ and ”classy” woman, but concedes that she is “utterly deceived.“ Bickle says that she is a ”forerunner to the Harlot movement.” Watch below:
Read more about this fascinating church movement here.
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Comments (139)
oneillptgd
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:09amThose who shoot flaming missiles are on what side of the divide? During the Great Awakening, most of the church leaders fought against the new movement. They were afraid of individuals gaining power with out going to the priest or pastor. The fear of the Bible being in the hands of individuals was equally great. From 1611 KJV Bible to 1750s not very long.
Report Post »“If my People who are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray.” God will respond to FAITH.
docmd
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:29amRemember __GOD__ can move mountains and Prayer moves __GOD__ !!!!!!!
Report Post »whitebears
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 1:33pm…. Jesus approved of one teaching alone….Revelation chapter two and three…..who are the Kenites
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 3:41pmwhitebears,
What do you mean by your comment? Can you explain please?
Report Post »PAPPY72
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 5:01pmIf I had to hazard a guess as to what Whitebears is talking about. It’s probably this: http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/docrob/ken001.htm
The site seems to be saying that racial purity is God’s will, and tries to justify that point of view.
It’s not a point of view I care to entertain.
Report Post »BetterStandUp
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 2:36amWell said. Personally, I would rather have a whole NATION of young people worshipping God and loving others than a whole WORLD of young people tearing up our society just to fit in. More powere to them!
Report Post »Gypsy123
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:55amWith Obama as president we need as much prayer as we can get!
Report Post »kbhunter
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:38amIn Leviticus God instructed the Israelites to “Keep the fire on the alter burning continuously”. This and other instruction in the Old Testament was designed to teach the Israelites about worship.
Continuous prayer has taken place before in history, accompanied by great revival. In the 1700′s Moravian refugees in Herrnhut, Germany prayed continuously for 100 years. They sent out missionaries and spread the Gospel. John Wesley came out of this movement and brought it back to England. Also George Whitfield brought it to America where the “First Great Awakening” swept the colonies and had great impact on the men who wrote our constitution.
Prayer works, and is desperately needed.
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:02amTo bad all of us CHristians don’t have something like this going on.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:08amYea, then a lot would really get done… you’d finally be more like muslims and spend all day in worship instead of doing actual work or educating yourselves about things that show strong evidence of evolution.. but then you’d have to read multiple books instead of a single holy book full of silliness
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:14amcesium, what shows ‘strong evidence’ of evolution? sure isn’t the fossil record, its not in the lab…there is no ‘junk dna’ or ‘vestigial organs’ how many failed predictions does evolution have to have before your realize its not science, its just a racist atheist fairy tale?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:34amcesium, no ‘strong evidence’ huh?…no surprise!!! LOL
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 3:46pmThe fossil record is strong and growing!! Junk DNA may be a misnomer but we know there is more into those non protein encoding sequences… if you say evolution is racist you are a total ignoramus… Eugenics is counter to natural selection in the “natural” sense.. People who brandish darwin with such vitriol know nothing about the guy… People like you are so ignorant about fossils… you cannot expect to retain ever specimen that has ever died in a random place in the earth… most deaths decay.. no bones no fossils… It’s difficult to find but we keep finding links of common ancesorts.. get that? common!!! Like most morons, like many who comment on the blaze.. we did not evolve from apes.. EVER! we all evolved from common ancestors… inbetween gradual fossils for each step of the way is impossible.. most deaths do not become fossils!!!
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 3:57pmand because you say that the evidence is “not in the lab” proves how uneducated you really are… There is a wealth of evidence of proof in the lab… check the archives of Nature or Science, for a start! there are many other peer reviewed journals that report on this subject….. we can identify at the molecular level the similarities in transposon elements between related species and how the coding becomes become more disparate in less related species… sequence homology in nucleic acid regions shows clearly how genes diverge in sequence in less related species that harbor the gene for the same protein…A particular ape gene can be shown to be much more identical to the homologous human gene whereas the mouse version, though the same gene, has even less identity to both the human and ape, yet has more identity to the rabbit… If there are no vestigial organs, then why do I have a 3rd nipple? why are some people able to move their ears like rabbits? why are some people born with tail remnants… Face it, you are uneducated… A lot of people are these days in the US
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 4:08pm@cesium..yeah the fossil record is strong and growing and it does NOT show evolution….or do you think Gould was lying when he said:
Doug: What got you started thinking about punctuated equilibrium?
Stephen Jay Gould: It wasn’t broad philosophical or political issues as I think many people assume. It really comes right out of an operational dilemma in paleontology.
I had been trained, as Niles Eldredge had, in statistical methods for the study of subtle changes in evolution. Evolution at that time was defined as gradualism. The two were virtually equated; to see evolution meant finding gradualistic sequences, but every paleontologist knew that they had effectively never been found, and that was a frustration.
http://www.powells.com/authors/gould.html
too bad you’re too much of an ignoramus to even know the full title of your bible: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life
struggle…hmmm where else have I heard ‘struggle’ used in a book title…oh yeah my struggle…mein kampf…
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 4:08pm@cesium…why don‘t you list the ’lower races’ your savior refers to:
why don‘t you list the ’lower races’ your savior refers to:
“The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilised races throughout the world.” (Darwin, Charles R. [English naturalist and founder of the modern theory of e
Report Post »clumsyc
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 4:14pm@Cesium
Report Post »“finally be more like muslims” I don’t understand that comment. You realize that it would be by choice, not force that these people choose to pray. The Bible doesn’t say we have to pray so many times a day to get to heaven. It says that if we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, then we get into heaven, not by killing people who don’t believe in what we believe.
joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 4:15pmlet me repost your savior’s quote with the full reference….
“The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilised races throughout the world.” (Darwin, Charles R. [English naturalist and founder of the modern theory of evolution], “The Life of Charles Darwin”, [1902], Senate: London, 1995, reprint, p.64).
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 4:16pm@cesium as far as being uneducated…you have no links to back up your ASSertions…too bad you don’t have the education to substantiate your fairy tales…
Report Post »holy ghostbuster
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 6:54pm@Joel1234 – the only fairy tale is the bible. Do you believe the Earth is 6000 years old?
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:09pmStephen Gould is not the end all source for evolutionary ideas, and punctuated equilibrium has been met with much contention especially by Daniel Dennet (see Darwins Dangerous Idea) and Zoologists like Richard Dawkins..According to Dennet, Gould wants there to be a mystique to explain away undiscovered gaps in the theories.. Punctuated equilibrium is contended by Dennet’s explanation of evolution being constantly algorithmic within design space lending to gradualism…. Of course you quoted Gould, That is not a shocker at all to me.. You want me to provide you links? I’m mot going to sit here and do the research for you… You can’t send me a single link on LTR analysis to disprove evolution.. sorry . Best I can do for now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment bah.. 600 generation of fruit flys and no change is not impressive at all!! Especially in a lab environment with no predation or weather!!! If you want well compiled lists of evidence I’m not going to take all my time and provide you links to them all.. They are nicely indexed in Richard Dawkins book “The Greatest Show on Earth” I recommend you read that book along with Daniel Dennet’s book “Darwins Dangerous Idea” so that you can achieve a better conception of how evolution works and the evidence for it.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:23pmI’m not a democrat, I’m a registered libertarian… why would you assume I’m a democrat? What does that have to do with looking at the fact of evolution? Evolution is a fact and creationism is not… If Gould couldn’t convince you, you need to at least start with Dawkins and Dennet. Darwin’s View of Race
In contrast to the existing views on race, Darwin showed that:
People cannot be classified as different species
All races are related and have a common ancestry
All people come from “savage” origins
The different races have much more in common than was widely believed
The mental capabilities of all races are virtually the same and there is greater variation within races than between races
Different races of people can interbreed and there is no concern for ill effects
Culture, not biology, accounted for the greatest differences between the races
Races are not distinct, but rather they blend together
You are totally wrong about Darwin!! It’s just sheer ignorance
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 9:36am@cesium…dawkins and dennets aren’t paleontologists like Gould was…so who do you think knows more about fossils? hmmmm? as far as Dennet:
Daniel Clement Dennett (born March 28, 1942) is an American philosopher, writer and cognitive scientist whose research centers on the philosophy of mind
yeah he’s a real fossil expert…snicker….LOL
get a clue, the fossil record does NOT show gradualism…no matter how much that PHILOSPHER dennett may think it does…the paleontologists (people who really know fossils) like Gould and Eldridge say they’re full of it…but then you would know about that.
600 generations…in a lab is not impressive…I mean really you show your ignorance…in that lab they set up the perfect environment for evolution…they even noted this in the study…you are PROFOUNDLY IGNORNANT….
Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments. This suggests that selection does not readily expunge genetic variation in sexual populations, a finding which in turn should motivate efforts to discover
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 9:39am@cesium…as far as Darwin’s view on race…I POSTED HIS VIEWS ON RACE…you post some lies and BS…where is the source for the drivel you posted? hmmmm?
you have to make up lies about your savior…I mean seriously do you even realize how idiotic you look?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 9:40amoh and here’s what Gould said about racism and the theory of evolution…
“Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.” Stephen Jay Gould,
1.Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 127.
Gould had the guts to admit the truth, why can’t you?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 9:42am@unholyclown: post your proof that the bible is a fairy tale…you can’t…the archeology supports the bible…..nice lie…let me guess you must be a democrat.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 12:12pmOk Joe.. You’re right, I give up… the magic man in the sky created us.. I’ll just take the easy way out like you and dismiss everything we have found so far as true evidience and throw all my eggs in goulds admissions of gaps, which is obvious since science community needs so much more time. Then I’ll just accept the story of jesus which is infinitely more asinine a story to accept as a truth compared to fossil evidence… I have seen at least some fossil evidence which you claim there is not enough of (yet) compared to absolutely a big fat 0 evidence that the bible is a gods word… and darwin is not my savior.. I am a free person, a libertarian, I am my own savior…
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 12:20pmI’m still not surprised the fly experiment in 600 generations in a lab under whatever natural mimicked conditions failed in this particular case… here is an example in our modern life time to explain to you how evolution works.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
I am not going to root through the evidence for you and link it all… If you did that yourself you would find yourself as the ignorant one… but doing all that would take you time and effort so make it easy and bury yourself in the mythic books you like so much to explain away evolution… Even if we have 1 solid piece of evidence.. there is no evidence for god.. none! Agnosticism is the only acceptable position if you are to be someone who lives life by seeking real “truth”
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 1:47pm@cesium…needs more time…yeah thats what you darwiniacs always say about evolution…proving that all you have is FAITH…in your racist god darwin…LOL nothing in the fossil record, nothing in the lab….no tree of life, no vestigial organs, no junk dna…NO EVOLUTION…
oh and your fable about the moths…they‘re still MOTHS after all that ’evolving‘ aren’t they now?? LOL
you obviously haven’t evolved the intellect to understand the implications of that experiment…and many others I could post…your intellect is obviously at the wikipedia level…in other words you’re a typiical democrat….easily led and uneducated.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 1:52pm@cesium…we have far more proof of God than of evolution….look up the anthropic principle…and then explain the fine structure constant for me…and you’re stupid enough to think the vast complexity in biology evolved…LOL what a buffoon…dna is a CODE..get it…and codes only come from intelligence…get a clue….
oh and the bible has been proven to be correct over and over and over again…the critics, like voltaire, are dust…and the bible stands….Israel exists, as the God of the Bible said it would….you can rage against it all you want…good luck saving yourself….you’ll get what you deserve…and then you’ll have plenty of time to think about how foolish you were….
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 2:53pmOMG! you‘re attempt to outwit me by exclaiming the moths are still moths after a single selection event in modern times within a few years is not proof of evolution proves that you still don’t understand how it works!!! Nor do you understand the concept of time and genetic conservation. Dinosaurs had eyes!!! complex eyes!!!! that was 60 million years ago!!! The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and life appeared 3.5 BILLION years ago… do you understand that from 3.5 billion years to the point dinosaurs and mammals appeared over 60 million years ago with with complex eyes is a longer time frame than you can conceive of?…100s of millions of years!!! do you understand how much time that is? It’s that is plenty of time to evolve an eye that has become well suited with much variation in multiple species from reptile to mammal to fish etc… that time goes way beyond 600 generations of fly breeding in a lab… I can’t even laugh at you.. It’s just a pitty I have to live in this country with you
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 10:15pmOMG you’re trying to justify evolution by small changes within a species…next you’ll be telling me different hair color is proof of evolution!!! LOL as far as your beloved moths..
Moth turns from black to white as Britain’s polluted skies change colour
The Peppered moth, which changed its colour from white to black in areas of Britain with heavy pollution, is now reverting to its original appearance.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5577724/Moth-turns-from-black-to-white-as-Britains-polluted-skies-change-colour.html
no evolution…just a case of oscillating selection….sorry…
as far as eyes…yes they did have complex eyes…just like we do…all sorts of different eyes…all produced by the pax 6 gene isn’t that interesting…
It had been shown that by morphological-phylogenetic research that photoreceptor organs (eyes) had developed at least 40 times independently during the evolution of animal diversity.
40 times independently?? that evolution sho is clever shazam, ain’t it gomer??? intelligent design anyone??
why don’t you list the mutations that led to the eye, IN ORDER….oh thats right you can’t…you don’t have a clue, nor does anyone else…all you have is a ‘just so’ story about ‘light sensitive patch of cells’ magically becoming eyes…PRAISE DARWIN!!!
all you have is faith in time….guess you missed this one gomer…
(next post)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 14, 2011 at 10:17pmNew Fossils Demonstrate That Powerful Eyes Evolved in a Twinkling
ScienceDaily (June 30, 2011) — Palaeontologists have uncovered half-a-billion-year-old fossils demonstrating that primitive animals had excellent vision. An international team led by scientists from the South Australian Museum and the University of Adelaide found the exquisite fossils, which look like squashed eyes from a recently swatted fly.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110629132546.htm
see you don’t need much time…darwin waives his holy hands..and SHAZAM EYES APPEAR…its nice to have the magic man in hell…or wherever he is….just poof things into existence for ya!!
evolution is fast when it wants to be, but slow when it needs to be…it makes giraffes tall and pygmys small…evolution is all in all…PRAISE DARWIN!!!
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 15, 2011 at 1:58am@schmo what?!?! of course the moths changed back after the black smoke stacks were taken away!! like you’re assuming these moths lived in one specific location in the world. Only where those stacks are? You’re just not getting how it works! After the black smoke stacks were gone the black moths could be contrasted more easily by predators again while they also BACKCROSS MATED AGAIN WITH PEPPERED MOTHS THAT ARE THE DOMINANT! NO ONE SAID THE PEPPERED MOTHS WENT EXTICT!!! See this is how your brain doesn’t think properly. Especially concerning what you just said about eye mutation. Go ahead, line up all the gene sequences(so far known) that determine an eye from one species to the next, and you will all the variations that arose through mutation! you’ll homology drop between primates down to insects yet retain certain required nucleotides.. the changes account for the differences. The genetic ontology of those differences is on going research, and it involves a lot of biochemistry and biophysics. Let me know when you’ve finished aligning gene sequences.. I’d like to hear you try to explain that away. (Unfortunately you probably don‘t have access to PubMed so you can’t look at the nucleotide databases.. but I suggest you get access somehow and prove it for yourself, instead of pleading me to show you the mutations.. If you don’t know what SNP is, look it up!!! it is a fancy name for viable mutation variation within a species.. There’s your eye answer.. next!
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 15, 2011 at 12:19pmAnother tidbit of evidence I see frequently in favor of evolution….It’s called LOSS OF HETEROZYGOSITY In some individuals(or experimentally manipulated mouse models) who only genetically have only one functional copy of say a tumor suppressor… The chance the functional copy mutates (background radiation, environmental teratogens) and the cell type transforms into malignancy is increased immensely with age and is tractable.. EVOLUTION IS A FACT BECAUSE CANCER EXISTS!!! How do you think neoplasias form??!? You think god does it? God gives you cancer? This is a selection process! Dependent on time, genetics, and stochastic processes.. If scientists did not view evolution as FACT, then what we’ve learned about cancer progression would have never come to fruition… This is proof you are out of your mind about evolution!!! Whether or not there is an initial mover to the the universe? I DON’T KNOW but EVOLUTION IS A FACT!! Otherwise cancerous cell formation would not become more frequent with age(excluding childhood leukemias) The fact that you utilize modern medicine(or may in the future for something like cancer) derived from the discovery of people who relied on evolution as a fact to make those discoveries renders you a big fat hypocrite… If you ever seek modern treatment for cancer, (which i hope you don’t) realize you will be a big fat hypocrite of a patient… Cancer only makes sense in light of evolution!!!!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 15, 2011 at 8:05pm@dumbass…what are you babbling about going extinct??? you’re a nut-case…get some professional help…
evolution is a fact because cancer exists???? this is some seriously stupid sh** wow….I’ve seen some stupid stuff spouted by you brain-dead darwiniacs, but this takes the cake….LOL BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
damn you’re dumb.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 15, 2011 at 9:58pm@ joe Arn’t you lucky.. There’s even a wikipedia article about it so of course I must have made it up…including 99 references
Report Post »http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_evolution_in_cancer
You don’t understand anything about cell/molecular biology!! Even if some god did just plant us here half a million years ago, evolution is still a fact!! From a new trait in a species to selection against cancer. Both have been shown! I forgot to show you the famous guppy experiment http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/lines/IVCexperiments.shtml
I couldn‘t get access to the original papers online but there’s ANOTHER example!
The fact that you find the progression of cancer which includes the process of evolution unbelievable is the nail in the coffin regarding your lack of knowledge on the subject of evolution.. case closed. You can keep calling me whatever you want, but I‘m getting my PhD on your tax dollars and it’s our understanding of evolution especially in cancer biology that will benefit medicine.. medicine you or your evolution denying family and friends may utilize someday… I guarantee you without modern science’s current assumptions of evolution, we would not be to our level of advance in medicine right now… This is why you are so unbelievably ignorant. Medical research REQUIRES an evolutionary basis to parse out cancer progression and figure out knew therapies. Everyone in cancer research knows that!!! Go find a cancer researcher and ask them about evolution i
Cesium
Posted on July 15, 2011 at 10:04pm…in neoplasia.
Report Post »CommonSenseis Missing
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:53amYou have to ask yourself, what exactly has been accomplished by this activity? Perhaps they could accomplish more by being out in their community, working and helping others in need. God will not solve our problems, we must solve them ourselves.
Report Post »EJ1979
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 3:28pmI agree with you, and one could also assume by the same group of people always doing this, chances are they are going through the motions, and not accomplishing anything at all!
Report Post »On Eagle Wings
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 1:32amI am from IHOP-KC
Report Post »and we have multiple ministries that reach out to the surrounding community as well as the inner city.At every conference that we have our first offering that we take is always for the poor in Kansas City.
gbtv4free
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:47amIf your budget is tight like most people these days, you can still enjoy GBTV for free! Look for details on the web in the days ahead!
Report Post »suzshofar
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 1:40pmWhat’s this?
Report Post »War_Eagle
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:32am@ Joelapp
What you’re talking about comes from Matthew 8 and only refers to personal offenses addressing the sins of an individual within the church. It doesn‘t have anything to do with addressing false teachers and it certainly doesn’t say we shouldn’t confront false teachers when they make their false teaching publically. Paul, for instance, called several people out publically in his epistles.
What’s more, it isn’t just “The Time” that has noticed issues with Bickle and his church and their doctrine. Many Christian leaders, including Al Mohler, Phil Johnson, Mike Horton, etc,, as well as para-church ministries that study cults and abberant movements within the church, such as James White’s group, Stand to Reason, the Christian Research Institute, etc.
Todd Friel and Chris Rosebrough have critiqued Bickle, IHOP, and their doctrines many times and on many different issues.
So it isn’t as if these things are just rumors. They have been investigated, corroborated, and are there for everyone to see.
Bickle is a heretic, his church is a scam, and Christians need to address this.
Report Post »joelapp
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:45amThat’s fine (it’s the Times not “the Time”).
I suppose if you want to show yourself as hateful to each other in front of the world. I would be surprised if your effort to break down something in your ignorance (since you most certainly don’t have direct knowledge of the people or the place) wins one person to Christ which after all is the point.
You can split hairs about the situation, but Mike Bickle is an individual, not a church. If you have a problem with him, you are bound by scripture confront him personally and in private first.
One other thing, I have seen far too much of this kind of back biting and it is neither Biblical nor even effective. I suppose we will see what happens in the end. If IHOP is God’s doing it will stand, if it is not it will not.
Why not leave it to Him? Probably because your flesh will not let you. Examine yourself first.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:49amjoelapp: oh please, you’re not going to get close to bickle….you take a verse, and twist it. bickle would have you arrested if you confronted him personally. who made you the biblical authority on how the rest of us are to act?
Report Post »joelapp
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:20amI guess you misunderstood – I am not an authority nor do i pretend to be one. How you act will be between you and God.
If Bickle preaches the Gospel (the fallen nature of man, the response to it by God in Christ, His death and resurrection to redeem us from Sin and our salvation through grace by faith) then I simply don’t understand why you get caught up in ancillary issues such as the personality of an individual or how he runs his church like you are. Sounds like petty jealousy from here.
Anyway, you are entitle to your opinion. My point is that Christians tearing each other apart in public is just plain wrong.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:39amI don‘t consider promoting false prophets to be an ’ancillary issue’ you do know what the bible says about false prophets right? since you think we should follow the bible in ‘confronting bickle personally’ do you think we should follow the bible and put the false prophets to death?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:47amand lets be honest, anyone who promotes false prophets, or is one himself, should be disqualified from the ministry…he should go hang his head in shame..but he just ‘reinvents’ himself and continues to sell the snake oil…kind of like jimmy swaggert. You can read the criticisms of bickle’s theology all over the internet…I know for a fact he runs a very cultish church…since he was my pastor for a while…its very ‘us vs. them‘ with the ’us’ being in the new vangard of spirituality….right.
Report Post »joelapp
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:29amI am so sorry for you that bitterness toward this man has soured you to this extent. You need to move on.
“All over the net” is NEVER a strong endorsement of “facts”. His decisions are between him and God. It is clear that you can’t see what you are doing with that big log in your eye.
Please help me understand where exactly in the New Testament we are called to kill people? Not that I am relegating the Old testament, but we are not under Law any longer. False prophets fall of their own weight and need no help from you. If his fruit is evil, it will fail.
We are to do our best to live at peace with each other. Leave the things he did to you to God. Vengeance is one thing He reserves WHOLLY to Himself.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:44amyou sound like one of his lackeys…the truth hurts…‘bitterness’ LOL more like the TRUTH HURTS. he’s a con-man. get a clue.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:46amoh and joel, why don‘t you tell us the ’facts’ of his ministry, since you are one of his lackeys? hmmm? why don’t you explain all the false prophecies this man promoted? and tell us why you think lying in the name of God is a good thing. I see you’re not so big on following the bible when it goes against your leader now are you? what a hypocrite.
Report Post »joelapp
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 12:22pmas i said – never been there.
I live in Florida.
Just reacting to the unseemly behavior of people who should humble themselves and behave like Christians and not like the world. If you have a legitimate issue with him, go to your Pastor and, as the leader of your flock, he should contact Bickle, leader to leader, and explain your concerns privately. Or maybe you will be told that you are in deed out of line (which you are by the way).
But maybe you think it is your job to break Bickle down? Are there any other doctrinal miscreants you think you are called to judge as well? Please let us know. Maybe God has indeed called you into this particular ministry. If not, maybe you should be quiet.
Have a blessed day.
Report Post »Don Fulano
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 12:24pmI respect all of the men you mention, and the ministries they represent. Nevertheless, they all have a bone to pick with Charismatics, which Bickle unashamedly is.
I have met Mike Bickle, and while I might not agree with him in all of his doctrinal positions, he is passionate about revival coming to the USA. So I say, God Bless him. God has used much odder people than him to accomplish His purposes.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 12:31pmJoel, perhaps you should ask bickle to stop the unseemly behavior of promoting false doctrine and false prophets…but that doesn’t bother you at all for some reason…..why is that?
As far as ‘talking to my pastor’ I don’t need to go to my leader to do my talking for me…as I said I knew bickle…I would have no problem telling him to his face what a faker he is…but why should I go to KC to tell him something he already knows?
apparently you need leaders to do your thinking and talking for you. I think YOU are the one that is out of line….accepting false doctrine, and lies in the name of God..do you lie for God all the time? what ‘god’ do you serve? If bickle would tell me I‘m ’out of line’ I would rejoice..knowing that I am on the right track.
it sure is my job to tel the truth about bickle…why do you think its your job to promote his lies?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 12:32pmoh and joel, as far as juding, you sure are juding me…but then I guess its OK for you judge people, guess you think you’re holier than thou…
have a blessed day…you holier than thou hypocrite.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 12:33pmDon, does God use people who lie about what He says? false prophets who lie in the name of God?
Report Post »whitebears
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 2:00pm@War_Eagle and Joelapp – Unless a church/minister is teaching who the Kenites are and what the Three Earth Ages are…they are not teaching GOD’S TRUTH….Mark 13 says we were foretold ALL things…Kenites and Three Earth Ages are topics only a few churches teach and that in Revelations 2 and 3 Jesus approved of. Those who say they are of Judah and are not….unless you have ears to hear and eyes to see you will not UNDERSTAND what Jesus is saying…Most of the so called christian churches in America are more concerned about money than they are teaching the TRUTH…Truth is only revealed when sought after…thus neither of you have found the truth but have found man’s doctrine. Below is Paul speaking to Timothy…
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Report Post »2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:26amBickle was my pastor in st. louis a long time ago…then he move to KC, why I never figured out…apparently some ‘prophet’ told him to….and several of my friends went with him…I never understood why they did…it seemed rather cultish to me…follow the leader. Then bickle was involved with the so-called ‘prophets’ and they turned out to be false prophets…I remember all the ‘prophecies’ that his brother, who was a quadraplegic would be healed…never happened…..I would be very sceptical of anything bickle was involved with.
Report Post »War_Eagle
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 7:55amJoe, when I was a new Christian, I got caught up in the WoF cult and this is very common. Little personality cults are all throughout that movement.
In fact, I was thrown out of one church, World Harvest Christian Center, in Pennsauken, NJ, for daring to ask the pastor there about some comments he made in a service.
Report Post »Hisemiester
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:17amFor a lot of you who have commented on this church, your Christ-ain’t-ity is showing.
Report Post »Can anyone tell me the answer to this question? You have a community of less than 90 heads of households and you have three or maybe four fundamental protestant churches. Why?
War_Eagle
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:38amThere could be many reasons. It could be that church attendance is not limited to that community. It could be that the churches belong to different denominations. It could be that the buildings are not large enough to accomodate all people. It could be that they differ in their beliefs on the non-essentials.
We don’t measure truth by how many churchhouses there are, but by faithfulness to the Word of God.
I don’t care if there are one hundred in a community of four people. As long as they’re preaching the Gospel, carrying out the role and responsibilities assigned to the church, and being obedient to the Word of God, that’s fine by me.
Report Post »joelapp
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:11amAnyone who is a Christian making negative comments on this board about this or any church who has not followed the appropriate Biblical path for confronting a brother in error needs to stop making negative comments. We should not be tearing each other down in public and certainly should not take the word of the Times (certainly neither a Christian paper nor qualified to speak on Doctrine) to make a judgment on the validity of what Pastor Bickle is doing. And no, I have never gone there, I do not live near there. I do know people who have gone and come back glorifying God – which is obviously good fruit.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:09amwe need to end blind faith for all religions
Report Post »joelapp
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:21amnot advocating blind faith. I am advocating faith in God to take care of error in His church. He will deal with it in HIs own way.
Report Post »jb.kibs
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:13pmwell… faith, by definition… has to be ‘blind’ … otherwise it’s fact and not faith…
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:52pmuh.. faith in god is blind faith… It would only be non-blind faith if we knew a god existed and he was capable of intervention but that is a myth… hoping for god to be there or manage something = blind faith
Report Post »Curtman41
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:57amIf this was a story about a mosque with Muslim worshipers, the New York Times would sing its praises.
Report Post »louise
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:33amHow we live is a state of worship and shows others who or what we worship.
John 4:23,24~~An hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
Report Post »christos
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:11am……The beast who rides the woman/harlot who sits on the 7 hills–Rome Catholic Church,everyone knows this
Report Post »willbedone
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:45amI don’t know that Rome is the harlot. It does not fit ALL the descriptionns.
Report Post »christos
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:57am@WILLBEDONE : The Vatican does and it is in Rome and it is the head of the Catholic Church,Rome sits on the 7 hills—Be saved then through +CHRIST+ become +CHRIST+ like,put no one before +JESUS+ when praying to +GOD+ or any other time,do not change the words in the scriptures or be cursed.
Report Post »mils
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:30amreally…“everyone knows it”….prove it…show me the words that say
“catholic”..please, show me. “catholic”, wow me with your evidence..words, just words. I‘m not even Catholic and I’m offended!.. Thie bible you follow…you don‘t know that’s what was ment…you don’t know…you guess…you don’t even know who wrote the book, who edited it, who took from and added to it…
So many self righteous people on this site. People like this are the reason we left the “christian” church…self righteous, know it all…you’re wrong and going hell people. You are not the judge of man kind… Your bible is not better than the koran…
Report Post ».I do not for one moment believe God set forth a precise way for man to pray…it’s between you and God.. Man has been here more than a few thousand years…it‘s when he realized he could dominate others with what ’GOD SAID”, that he began his decline….Self righteous pigs.
Duddio
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:23amChristos,
Report Post »Did you ever stop to think that the seven hills might refer to the continents of the world? That the harlot will be a world-wide faith system that affects every corner of the world, not just a tiny corner of europe? It is very small thinking to pronounce a curse over someone else‘s insight that doesn’t violate the Scripture. I’d leave that to the Father, for He knows all hearts.
saranda
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 12:38pm@Christos – unfortunately for your argument the Vatican is not even built on one of the 7 hills of Rome. Time to start a new theory.
Report Post »christos
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:44pmDUDDIO or is it DOEDOE: Never said I pronounced a curse on any one the King James Bible says if anyone takes away or adds anything to the Bible +GOD+ will curse them,as for your theory isn’t great we live in a place where we can have freedom of speech–my teachers are John Hagee Cornerstone church and Les Feldick.org,Hats off to you……
Report Post »christos
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:57pm@SANDRA : Clay and Iron never mix,,,,,,Never said the Vatican was built right on one of the 7 hills,my teachers are John Hagee Cornerstone Church and Les Feldick.org they both know Biblical Prophecy also Dr. David Jeremiah Bless You SANDRA Good Day.
Report Post »theoph
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:06amThe reason why IHOP prays 24/7 is because they believe in Dominion Theology. They believe in a “Latter Rain” revival is coming where Christians under the leadership of regional apostles will regain major influence take dominion over society through the demonstration of signs, wonders, and miracles. Then once society is perfected, Christ will return. Unfortunately, many who attend IHOP and support this ministry have no idea that the leadership of this church supports postmillennialism and believe also in Preterism (the belief that the book of Revelation has already been fulfilled).
Report Post »sm1019
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:54amOh ok….so because this guy‘s ideology is different then your’s his prayer‘s don’t count? Seriously? Last time i checked your passage to heaven is based on a certain belief not on how you interpret the bible or what religion you are with. It saddens me to see such hypocrisy by others.
Report Post »vennoye
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:58amThank you for your explanation. I had seen some postings of this nature on an Amazon board and wondered where on earth it was coming from. Amazing how scriptures can be twisted slightly to conform to what you want them to say……….can get you totally on the wrong track.
Report Post »timmers
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:41amError and misinformation are rampant. NO, IHOP-KC does NOT believe in Dominion Theology. You can find their entire doctrinal statement online at ihop.org. In short, they believe Jesus will come back after many of the horrific events of Revelation, and ONLY then will society be perfected during what is called the millennial rule of Christ. They do NOT believe that Jesus will come back to a Christianized society. Just like MOST evangelical churches.
Report Post »timmers
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:50amTHEOPH, you are completely wrong on every sentence. IHOP is utterly and thoroughly PREMILLENNIAL. The leadership does NOT believe in either postmillennialism or dominion theology. Where you obtained this information from, I have no idea. It is simply not true. Why is there so much misinformation out there? They do NOT believe the Book of Revelation has already happened. In fact Bickle is attacked for that belief that the events in Revelation are still to come.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:51amSM: that ‘certain belief’ is tied to how you interpret the bible…for example, is your Jesus the Jesus of the historic christian faith, the jesus of mormonism, or the issa of islam?
Report Post »ndeyarman
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:43amIHOP does not support Dominion theology. They are premillenalists not post. They do not believe that most of Revelation has happened. You need to listen to some of their teachings. I have been down there numerous times, last for their Israel and End Times conference this May, lead by speaker David Pawson. As for the worship they follow David’s example when he set up the temple worshippers. 24/7 prayer & worship. They also have a Bible School, various inner city ministries, and missions trips. They are extremely Pro-Israel. They also have developed a partnership with YWAM (Youth with a Mission), The Call (Lou Engle). I have yet to find any of their teaching unbiblical. My husband is a pastor and I am a youth leader in our community. I think, not just you, Theoph, but others, should research things for themselves, cautiously, before listening to what others say…so here’s their website http://www.ihop.org.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:52amwe have done the research…
http://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology
http://biblefacts.org/cult/cri/promov23.html
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue107.htm
Report Post »theoph
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 4:32pmFrom their web site, the following quote . . .
“IHOP–KC holds to the historic premillennial view of the end times with a post-tribulation
rapture and victorious praying Church emphasized (Eph. 5:27; Rev. 19:7). The Church will be
victorious in love with power during the most dramatic time in history. This view gives us
confidence and urgency to dynamically participate with Jesus now and in the coming revival.”
I believe I stand corrected.
Report Post »TylerD
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:36pm@THEOPH
Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but here’s what you posted from the IHOP-KC website:
“IHOP–KC holds to the historic premillennial view of the end times with a post-tribulation
rapture and victorious praying Church emphasized (Eph. 5:27; Rev. 19:7).” … I believe I stand corrected.
But in your original comment, you said they held a post-millennial view. So doesn’t that mean you proved yourself wrong?
Report Post »chigger
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 10:28pm@JOE1234: we have done the research…
http://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology
Report Post »http://biblefacts.org/cult/cri/promov23.html
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue107.htm
—————————————————————————————-
Joe, I dont know about the last 2 sites you listed but the first, equip.org, is famous for bashing every preacher out there. I’ve listened to this “bible answer man” and every program is aimed and tearing down someones ministry no matter what faith that ministry is. He’s seems to feel his opinion is the only one is right. I think if you are calling yourself Christian you need to follow the biblical example and go to this pastor in KC and express your concerns to him personally. That is what the Bible tells us to do. Your incessant bashing and angry words against him here on this board is no better than the false teaching you accuse him of. And, quite frankly does nothing to promote the Christian faith. Im sure the man would sit down with you and discuss your differences. I live not far from KC and many of my friends have been to these services. There is nothing bad going on there. I find it surprising that you would take information from the internet from people you dont know and believe it over what the KC-IHOP has listed on their own website. It would seem they themselves would know what they believe and what they teach, and not some stranger posting stuff out in cyberspace.
On Eagle Wings
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 1:54amYou have no idea what you are talking about, you have not heard any of the teachings that come out of IHOP to make such a dumb statement. You should do more research by listening to the teachings first, it is easy to find its on mikebickle.org,
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on July 15, 2011 at 8:12pmfirst of all I used to be in his church…he’s a tireless self-promoter…he’s a con-man…if he had any integrity he’d quit the ministry after being involved in those false prophets…
sitting down and talking to him? I would have no problem with that..but it would be like talking to jimmy swaggart…casting pearls before swine…he thinks he‘s God’s gift to the church..and he’s going to lead us into a glorious new age…he‘s the repository of ’special annointing‘ and ’wisdom’
right.
and you can’t dispute what those sites say…only denigrate them….
Report Post »Aequitas
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:44amHe’s the same as the Islamic extremist and just as crazy.
Report Post »SgtHenick
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:21amNo, and even though I dont believe he is on the right track, there are very very important differences that separate these guys from muslims.
Report Post »NEAF
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 9:08amAre you stereotyping and/or profiling? I guess all cats looks black at night. I guess soon all these extreme people become violent calling for the killing of Jews and world control, right!
Report Post »gdhead
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:38amFYI: Unity Worldwide Ministries (also in K.C.) has operated and staffed the Silent Unity prayer service 24/7 for over a hundred years. Visit http://www.unity.org or call 1-800-NOW-PRAY (1-800-669-7729)
Report Post »for someone to pray with you. Any prayer request is honored. “Whenever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there.”
MrldPatriot
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 8:17amSatan is happy when people attend Unity as well as IHOP. They both take the attendee away from the true Gospel.
Report Post »On Eagle Wings
Posted on July 13, 2011 at 1:57amI am sorry but IHOP-KC is not affiliated with Unity Worldwide Ministries
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:29amWe have started a 24/7/365 prayer movement in our mainstream denominational church for the saving of AMERICA and ISRAEL and the awakening of GOD’s “kids” all over the world. We invite you to join us…. any hour, any day or night, from now until we die or JESUS calls us HOME.
It is a lifetime commitment, not just a day or a week or a month or a year, but prayer for the return of AMERICA to GOD as our leader and the restoration of GOD in all things AMERICAN.
You can pray a minute, three minutes, five minutes, an hour, etc. Just “do it”!~
Report Post »wchidi75
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:24amI think that’s wonderful what this church is doing, but I have to echo what the other writer said about Catholic monks….only it isn’t just monks in monasteries: I can name three Catholic churches I know personally where Eucharistic adoration chapels have been open for prayer and manned by faithful worshipers around the clock for years. My home church in a small town in Idaho has had 24-hour-a-day, year-round prayer for not 12 years but 26 years. Another Catholic church in central Texas has had similar round-the-clock prayer since the early 1990s.
This is in NO way meant as negative commentary on the church mentioned in this article: in fact, it’s a wonderful thing to read of their piety and desire to praise the Good Lord throughout the day and night! However, the Kansas City church is not unique by any means. Not just monasteries but probably hundreds of Catholic parishes around the country and throughout the world, as well as comvents and monasteries, have had this round-the-clock prayer going on for a long time.
Were that more churches of all denominations able to and willing to support such prayer. If our country needs anything, it is prayer.
Report Post »mikenleeds
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:10amthe fat asses chicks on the view,obama, Clinton and Oprah are all part of the destruction of America
Report Post »hightide
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:09amInteresting. Only one way to heaven…
Report Post »jedi.kep
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:04amOMG! He touched the annointed one’s woman of the year! Egad!
He’s got a good point though. LOL.
Report Post »Brandolyn
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 6:57amI’ve known about IHOP-KC for about 7 years now, and when I travel the 6 hours to KC, I attend their services. I also watch their webstream and utilize their bookstore and free online teachings. Amazing. Simply amazing. Walking into that prayer room that has been saturated in worship and intercession for so long is the most amazing experience. It is not, as one commenter said, a sane person’s nightmare. If you are a christian this is something you might want to check out. The worship is (I hate to use this word again, but…) amazing. Mike Bickle is an awesome teacher, but so are the other teachers at IHOP-KC. Allen Hood is my personal favorite. He did a teaching on the mercy of God that changed my life. Anyway, for what it’s worth, I urge people to check out IHOP-KC and see for themselves.
Report Post »faithwalker
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:02amI have visited their website many times and have never seen anything that I would call unorthodox theology and a cultish atmosphere but thats only seeing from the outside. I have enjoyed their worship music many times, it’s mostly mainstream. Of course when you have a secular orginazation like The New York Times recently profiling the church what can you expect.
Report Post »LiberalMarine
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:03amThe idea of the 24/7 prayer area isnt the sane nightmare, just what he was “teaching.”
Report Post »Brandolyn
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:35amI disagree with LiberalMarine. This is a good, solid chruch that teaches the love and compassion of God. They strive for holiness and exhault God. You can disagree with the teachings, but I personally think you would be wrong.
Report Post »Swamp Yankee
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 6:53amCatholic monks have been doing this sort of thing for sixteen hundred years.
Report Post »LiberalMarine
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 6:44amThat video is a sane person’s nightmare.
Report Post »faithwalker
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:01amTo understand the Harlot movement we need to understand Bible profecy.
Report Post »Brandolyn
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 7:35amAmen, Faithwalker! :)
Report Post »Twinspeedr
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 11:22amYou guys are right on!
Report Post »Taxpayer550
Posted on July 12, 2011 at 6:37amSounds like a liberal’s nightmare!
Report Post »