Long-Lost Letter Raises Questions About Lincoln’s Faith
- Posted on April 15, 2011 at 9:55am by
Jonathon M. Seidl
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A long-lost letter written by one of of Abraham Lincoln‘s close friends is raising questions about one of the country’s greatest presidents and his faith. Mainly, what did the lanky Land-of-Lincolnite believe?
According to a letter written by Springfield, IL lawyer and Lincoln confidant William Herndon in 1866, the answer is confusing. In the letter, Herndon claims Lincoln was more of a theist that didn’t believe in the supernatural.
“Mr. Lincoln’s religion is too well known to me to allow of even a shadow of a doubt; he is or was a Theist & a Rationalist, denying all extraordinary — supernatural inspiration or revelation,” Herndon writes in the letter obtained by the Raab Collection of Philadelphia.
“At one time in his life, to say the least, he was an elevated Pantheist, doubting the immortality of the soul as the Christian world understands that term. He believed that the soul lost its identity and was immortal as a force. Subsequent to this he rose to the belief of a God.”
The letter is considered a fascinating development because, despite being raised a Baptist, Lincoln apparently was never baptized, didn’t join a church as an adult, and was often coy about his beliefs.
“In rare instances,” however, “he divulged his true feelings to one close friend, longtime confidant and law partner, William Herndon,” said Nathan Raab, vice president of the Raab Collection. “He did believe in God, however difficult it might be to easily define those beliefs.”
According to Lincoln historian and biographer Ronald White, Herndon’s letter was in response to attempts to Christianize the 16th president after his assassination.
But as Discovery News reports, Herndon‘s knowledge of Lincoln’s faith is relegated to the years before he became president — the years before a national crises may have awakened his faith. And there is evidence that such a thing did happen:
But the challenges of a presidency, the angst of the Civil War and the 1862 death of his 11-year-old son would push Lincoln to consider God in ways he never had before, said White, who added that religion is something most Lincoln biographers have skimmed over.
Lincoln’s second inaugural address points to his eventual embrace of religion in midlife, White said. The speech, which was just 701 words long, mentions God 14 times and quotes the Bible four times, with two references to the Old Testament and two to the New Testament. In comparison, there were zero biblical references in his first inaugural and just one Bible quote in all previous inaugural addresses combined.
After his son’s death, Lincoln also developed a strong relationship with a Presbyterian minister named Phineas Densmore Gurley. And after his own death in 1865, Lincoln‘s secretary John Hay found an untitled and undated document in Lincoln’s desk that both questioned God’s presence in the midst of the Civil War and offered affirmation that God was somehow a silent actor in the war. Hay called it: Meditation on the Divine Will.
“I’m arguing that Lincoln went on a remarkable faith journey that moves forward quickly and matures during his four years as president,” White told Discovery News. “He was not just dropping phrases from the Bible. In both the second inaugural and the Meditation on the Divine Will, he was dealing at a very deep level with profound religious questions.”
The letter is currently being sold for $35,000.
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Comments (232)
BetterDays
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:13am“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” – Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs, May 12, 1779
And Ben Franklin:In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?… I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126) {the first quote was George Washington.}
and Payne:”The reformation was preceded by the discovery of America, as if the Almighty graciously meant to open a sanctuary to the persecuted in future years, when home should afford neither friendship nor safety.” – Common Sense, January 10, 1776
What these men had, is an intense but very personal relationship with GOD. What they despised was persecution because the “churches” control over believers faith by teaching that only the church leaders could have a relationship with GOD and that every one else had to fall in line or else.
Report Post »Eblaze44
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 6:35pmWhat most of them were escaping wasn’t the church leaders who had control, but the government religion which had control. IF you go to church, your church leaders still have control over your relationship with God. the difference between then and now – you can now go to another church or start your own – takes only 6 people in most states.
Report Post »Bolo2811
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:13amHistory revisionists hard at work yet again. Trying to erase ALL truth from historical FACT.
What a bunch if EVIL moronic progressives. They’ve been trying to convince everyone for a long time that ALL of the founding fathers were atheists, idol worshippers, pagans who didn’t really believe in the Bible or follow Christ. The only problem with their little agenda is that they will have to burn EVERY written paper, statement, EVEN THE CONSTITUTION that attests to the fact that they WERE IN FACT GODLY CHRISTIAN MEN WHO ESTABLISHED THE ONLY LEGITIMATE FORM OF GOVERNMENT ON EARTH….THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENT, based on the principled Law of Moses (thou shalt not murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.) That our rights come from GOD-NOT-GOVERNMENT. That Liberty if a GIFT from God our Creator. That Human beings are VERY, VERY valuable to God. That the earth was made for man, not man for the earth (sorry, global warming cooks).
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:31amJETINJAXFL….
{{{{{groan}}}}}
He NEVER alluded to God as an invisible man in the sky… and AGAIN, he did not END the speech with those words.
He was a DEIST, and “god” was NATURE.
Period.
Report Post »JETinJAXFL
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:54amWell I did not know the man personally but as stated before, during the Civil War, he often wrote of the “will of God”. How can you call that Deist?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:01pmDoc was there and heard the Gettysburg Address!
Report Post »ChevalierdeJohnstone
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:08amLincoln was an evil, evil man and one of the most destructive and despicable of U.S. Presidents.
Made his start as a tool of the government-entrenched, monopolistic railroad interests (basically, stealing land from farmers)
Avid supporter of unilateral, crippling trade tariffs on Southern farmers and government-promoted monetary inflation, to fund Northern welfare programs and a corrupt political machine – economically promoting the use of cheap (slave) farm labor in the South to fund production surpluses to pay for Northern pork projects
Avid supporter of putting ghettoized immigrants to work in despicable conditions in Northern factories
Avid supporter of the ‘rights’ of slave owners in slave states – so long as they didn’t disturb the “good for business” status quo and consistently promised _not_ to end slavery in slave states
As President, rather than negotiating with seceding Southern states, instituted a policy of mass starvation through naval blockade
As President, jailed dissenting (Union) journalists and citizens without trial, suspended habeas corpus, ran roughshod over the Constitution
Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves only in Confederate states which refused to return to Union control – a somewhat brilliant political/military tactic, but not a great example of moral fortitude
Supported the idea of blacks as ‘2nd class’ citizens – not really American – until his death. Favored segregation laws.
In the “2nd inaugural address” referenced, Lincoln stated his belief that GOD was responsible for the extremely high casualty rates in the war – as punishment
Every other Western nation managed to abolish slavery without a civil war.
Lincoln was a consummate politician and demagogue. Why would we take his pre-written political speeches as any evidence of religious or moral belief?
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:18pmSo much to argue here, so little time!
Lincoln supported railroad-building as essential to economic development–”infrastructure,” if you will.
How is that surprising in a politician from what was then the western state of Illinois?
What was “unilateral” about protective tariffs, which were voted on by Congress and which in fact had been quite low in the fifteen years before 1860? And anyway, how did these support “Northern welfare programs?” What welfare programs were these?
Lincoln opposed the extension of slavery precisely because, like all Republicans, he believed in “free soil, free labor and free men.” That is, he thought slavery‘s westward expansion would close off the white man’s access to cheap land, producing a glut of labor in the east and lowering wages–this is far from wanting “ghettoized immigrants” to continue to labor in appalling conditions in factories. Indeed, except for the Irish, most immigrants seem to have supported the Union cause.
He did not (before 1863) move against slavery in slave states because he was not an abolitionist, and because he did not want to alienate border states like Kentucky and Maryland. Call this “politically motivated,” if you like, but it was sound politics at the time.
“Ran roughshod over the Constitution?” I’ll give you this one, but I would add that the Constitution of the United States could hardly be allowed to serve as warrant for the destruction of the United States, which would have been the likely consequence of Confederate success.
Tried to starve the South rather than negotiating? The South would have been perfectly capable of feeding itself had it not tried to keep large armies in the field for four years, taking free labor away from the land, while at the same time continuing to rely on slave labor for cash crops while its blockade runners concentrated on profitable luxuries rather than food.
Opposed equality for blacks and wished they could all be shipped back to Africa? Yes, like almost all Americans, Lincoln was racist, though less so as time went on and the impossibility of colonization as well as the value of black soldiers in the Union cause became evident.
Britain and France were able to abolish slavery in their overseas colonies by simple decrees from the metropolis. In the US, the “slavocracy” wasn’t in the distant Caribbean, it controlled states which had two senators each, representation in the House (declining proportionately, it’s true) and input in the Electoral College, as well as commanding a majority on the 1861 Supreme Court.
Lincoln was not “evil” or “despicable,” simply a man of his time. We should thank God for him, whether he believed in God or not.
Report Post »AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:55pmJust WOW! I am dumb founded by your complete misunderstanding of history – I will borrow from Lloyd Drako, and say “So much to argue here, so little time!”
Report Post »Robert999
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 3:18pmChevalierdeJohnstone,
I mostly agree with you. That Lincoln was not a Christian explains how he could allow America to fall into its most destructive war merely so he could take an office he was elected to by a minority of the electorate.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:05amObama has stated that Lincoln is his favorite president. I find that odd considering Lincoln’s views on race as stated in one of the Lincoln/Douglas debates.
Report Post »Abraham Lincoln:
“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:04amLincoln wouldn’t be able to stop RETCHING at the sight of what the republican party has become today.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:21amAnd this comment proves you are simply trolling. The fact of the matter is Lincoln was a lot like GW!
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:32amLOL!!!
How so?
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:44amTrolltrainer:
Report Post »Which GW do you mean, George Washington or G. W. Bush?
trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:59amI meant Bush!
I am ambivalent about Lincoln. I think he did what he felt he had to in the circumstances. Likewise, I believe GW acted honestly according to his perspective. I disagree with things both did but I can understand their reasoning.
Doc,
You make a blanket statement about the whole Republican party. It was a stupid statement. It amounts to childish name calling and it was intended to illicit a negative response, as all your posts seem to do. It would be equivalent to me calling Democrats the party of slave owning KKK members. I would not do that. I may not agree with your ideals but I can at least show some respect.
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:09pmTROLLTRAINER…
EVERYTHING that the GOP has done for the last 30 years and EVERYTHING that they are currently proposing is ANATHEMA to what Lincoln believed in.
I stand by my assessment.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:35pmlol, and I stand by mine! :-)
Report Post »JETinJAXFL
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:58pmMy stomach gets quesy looking at BOTH parties, Republicans and Democrats.
Report Post »WTSpike
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:52amTimes of crisis – They had Lincoln. We have Obama. Aparrently, Darwin was, indeed, wrong.
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:47amI noticed that you can’t REFUTE any of it, can you?
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 7:56pmExcept for your premise that the “address” did not include, “under God” in your previous posts (which you never directly responded to). That one was easy to refute. What else was it that you wanted us to squash? Was it something about your basement dwellings? I forget.
Report Post »jfreak13713
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:47amSay what you will about Lincoln and his faith because it simply does not matter to me. However, what does matter is that he believed in a LARGE CENTRALIZED FEDERAL GOVERNMENT which lead to the Civil War where THOUSANDS lost their lives! That my friends are facts that are NOT in dispute. Now of that awful war came good thins such as an end to slavery but that just proves that God can produce good even when man intends evil but the fact remains that ever since our FEDERAL Government has been out of control. How long will the UNION stand? Who jumps ship first?
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:37amDid Lincoln really “believe in” a large centralized Federal government or was he simply compelled to enlarge and centralize power to deal with an unprecedented–but temporary–emergency in the nation’s life?
After the Civil War, the Federal government was swiftly downsized almost to prewar levels, the Army was reduced once again to a barely adequate Indian-fighting force, the greenbacks were retired and the currency placed on a de facto gold standard, and the income tax rendered nugatory.
Report Post »hauschild
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:45amIs this supposed to divert our attention away from the fact we have a Marxist for a president? (rhetorical)
Report Post »stefooch
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:44amthe libs will have a field day with this story…
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:37amThey already are. Have you read the “strange docs love” posts above?
Report Post »BetterDays
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:01pmLol, let them purvey their propaganda. Imagine the amount of time it took the first socialist to cull through archival information to garner bits and pieces they could skew for their malevolent purposes. Funny how libertards decry others failings, yet Strangeprogressive is most likely guilty of plagiarism and for sure isn’t guilty of original thought.
Let’s have our Tea Party ( not republican…) field day in 2012.
Trolls live under bridges and eat volkswagons.
Report Post »bhscpa
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:41amAnyone catch the hit piece History channel ran the other night on George Washington? The lies about our founders from Progressives has been around for some time. After Washington, History ran “The Real Lincoln”. I’ll bet that was fact-filled too. Did anyone know Washington had a mistress and told many lies?
Report Post »Hugie 59 PA
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:39amIt seems Lincoln had a conversion experience when confronted with the Civil War. People many times when the incidentals are stripped away begin to recognize their need for some kind of Divine Intervention and when it occurs they become believers.
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:00amCite, please.
Report Post »John 3:16
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:38amWhether Lincoln believed or not, GOD used him for his will.
Report Post »dawg of gawd
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:52amGod used Hitler too.
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:47amDawg: and Hitler, in his way, apparently believed in God, or “Providence,” or something.
Report Post »Bhaub
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 2:47pmThe Nazis had belt buckles which said, “Gott mit uns,“ German for ”God With Us.” Frightening, isn’t it?
Report Post »Thing
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:10pmNazis belived that they themselves are descendats of arian gods, so Gott that was mit them, wasnt God of Christians
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:38amLINCOLN wrote that, “The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”.. and his colleagues knew he was a Deist as well. His first law partner, John T. Stuart, said of him: “He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard.”
Most of our Founders were Deists… the fact that they had created a Nation of SELF-GOVERNANCE was a new concept, as up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. A notion rejected by the likes of JEFFERSON… who wrote;
“It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.”
“On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.”
“Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself.”
… OR BEN FRANKLIN.. ;
“. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
TOM PAINE was an unapologetic Atheist..;
“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity.”
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
GEORGE WASHINGTON was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason…;
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and LIBERAL policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
JOHN ADAMS…;
“The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?”
.
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”
JAMES MADISON…;
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
“Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
GREAT MEN ALL.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:18amI can refute all of it. These men were all thinkers with evolving beliefs throughout their lives. I can quote just as many documents from any of them that proclaim Christ. Even Thomas Paine in his later years, when he was supposedly an atheist, supported schools using the Christian Bible in their curriculum.
What is the point of these arguments? Does it even matter one way or the other? George Washington’s writings are plastered with his belief in Christ, Thomas Jefferson attended church every Sunday at the Capitol. You are simply trying to force these men into your belief in the effort to claim that this country was not founded on Christian principles. How about the other 200 odd founding fathers, many of them men of God?
You refuse to see or understand it because it does not agree with your theories. That is fine. Many of us have read the writings of the people you cite, and while some of them might not fit exactly into the Protestant Christian mold we would like they all did have a strong belief in a higher power, including Paine. They all knew it was through that power that allowed them to forge this nation.
Refute you? Why bother!
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:26amTROLLTRAINER..
Have at it, then.
These are the FACTS, little one… like it or not.
Report Post »BetterDays
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:29am@Troll:
Report Post »He is like his father a kier, for his father is lucifer the father of lies and the truth is not in him.
JETinJAXFL
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:47amDoc, I will give you Thomas Paine, he was indeed a confused man on many fronts. I could give you George Washington because he was not an outspoken Christian. But if you were to do a thesis on him and spend months reading his actual writings, you can easily come to the conclusion that he believed in God. When he attended a church, he attended a Christian church but that alone does not prove him to be a Christian. It would be quite the stretch to think he did not believe in God, but you could argue he was not a Christian.
Ben Franklin did spend much of his life as a Deist, but after Thomas Jefferson left office, his letters to Jefferson did reveal is faith and belief in God. These letters do not reveal him as a Christian but they do reveal he had the belief that God was alive and active in man’s life. That is not a Deist.
John Adams, biggest Christian of them all from birth to death. The quotes that you reference where aimed at the Church of England. The same is true with the first quote of James Madison. The remaining quotes, I am not familiar with. Please provide their references so I can see them in context.
Lincoln’s law partner knew the young Lincoln. As referenced in other places in this string of comments and many books that I have read or even a simple “Google” on “Lincoln’s religious beliefs, you see Lincoln question the beliefs of his youth. Again, I find no written evidence of him becoming a Christian, but he came to believe in God, that much is certain.
These are the things that I know.
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:51am@troll
Report Post »It is nor very convincing to say you can refute something and then end a few general paragraphs with – why bother? Truth is that Christians want to claim all the great men of history even when these men would most likely not claim them.
AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:44pmBen Franklin to Thomas Paine re: “the Age of Reason”
DEAR SIR,
I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence, that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion, that, though your reasonings are subtile and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind, spits in his own face.
But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.
I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it. I intend this letter itself as a proof of my friendship, and therefore add no professions to it; but subscribe simply yours,
B. Franklin
Report Post »ME262
Posted on April 16, 2011 at 11:34amMan, what a scholar you are I guess you are way more informed than David Barton, who by the way holds the largest collection of founding fathers documents other than the Library of Congress! You need to quit reading Howard Zinn and get with the picture. Where did you think the “House divided against itself cannot stand” quote comes from? Deist indeed!
Report Post »Deutscher
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:28amThis only further exposes a dangerous trend in the last century regarding faith and politics. We have had great men ( founders among them) that could not get elective office today because of their beliefs or lack thereof. We have somehow gone from rational thinkers to creationist as frontmen for political parties. Think about the idea that many of these men could never get elected today and where we would be without them.
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 1:15pmIt‘s a sign of how far we’ve (not) come that an “out” freethinker like Robert Ingersoll–a Republican, mind you!–is almost inconceivable in American politics today!
Report Post »Evileye
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:25amGod must shake his head in disbelief of how man has interpreted him
Report Post »Eblaze44
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 6:32pmWhat “GOD” would allow this insanity called Christianity to go on for 2,000 years with such myriad interpretations of His “supposed” words. Christian sects are no better than Islamist sects – they hate each other and believe that their way is the only way – and with no clue about who is right and who wrong – what GOD would let such stupidity go on and on for 20 centuries.?? There is one church around here that I like – it’s called a cult by many – their children are well behaved, they are hard workers, they live in a nice neighborhood, they are astute business men, they go to church every sunday – just don’t be at the entrance to the church parking lot when the sunday service is over – it’s like the daytona 500 as they tear out to be the first in line at the restaurants.
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:24amIf even remotely true I’ve often found through my own research and life that the man who honestly and with integrity wrestles with his belief in God will ultimately through maturity find himself faithfully anchored in God.
Report Post »TMan2020
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:24amLincoln certainly allowed a lot of occult junk to go on is his home, regarding his wife. I have never thought he was a man of great Christian faith. History has been most kind to this president for reasons other than his faith.
Report Post »AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:18amSIGH – Lincoln struggled with faith for years, this isn’t any revelation. He questioned the existence of God and whether God did in fact have a plan for man. Ultimately decided that God did exist and that the Civil War was a necessary evil; Necessary because it was the only way to completely eradicated an even bigger evil the bondage of our fellow man in the “Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave”. He believed a war of such magnitude was the only way to do away with such an evil institution – does everyone remember – “He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword. His truth is marching on.” Has anyone every really thought about what those words meant?
Report Post »AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:30amI forgot to mention, Lincoln came to believe that the Civil War was part of God’s plan.
Report Post »hoopojoop
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 2:01pmYou believe that waging war on civilian populations was part of God’s plan? Maybe you believe that God was high-fiving with the FBI as children burned to death in Waco.
Report Post »psst
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:18amWe can raise ?’s about everything under the Sun.
But, don’t dare raise ?‘s about Soetoro’s LFBC, or for damn sure, you’ll be called all kinds of names
Even raising the ? of whether God exists will get One in Less Trouble than raising ?‘s about the one’s LFBC..
Let Ole Abe alone. whether he believed or is now w/ Ol Madalyn MurrayO’hare or someplace else is his problemo.
Report Post »We can’t do anything about it.
Let’s be concerned about the present president(?)
JEANNIEMAC
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:17amSome months ago, Glenn Beck played a tape of a telephone conference between the White House and over seventy members of the Arts and Endowments organization. They were asked to use their talents to publicize and glamorize Obama’s agenda. Since then, various TV programs have introduced homosexual characters, bashed the Catholic church, trashed pro-lifers, and supported Obama. Advertising portrays characters who lie and cheat as if it was funny. Female dancers on TV programs wear as little as possible. Our nation is being programmed into becoming illiterate, promiscuous serfs, being given “bread and circuses” of pornography and government handouts, while the elites laugh and eagerly await the day they attain dominion over the peoples of the world.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:21amNot that I am arguing with you, but…
What does this have to do with Lincoln being a Christian?
Report Post »conversationcanwork
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:36amBecause Lincoln is so integrated into Evil Leftist Pop Culture.
Report Post »AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:36am@Trolltrainer I was wondering the same thing.
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:40am“TV programs have introduced homosexual characters, bashed the Catholic church, trashed pro-lifers. . . Advertising portrays characters who lie and cheat as if it was funny. Female dancers on TV programs wear as little as possible. Our nation is being programmed into becoming illiterate, promiscuous serfs, being given “bread and circuses” of pornography and government handouts.”
You think all this began with Obama?
Report Post »delhoghe
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:33pmLLOYD…and who are the people in charge of bringing all of those evil things to us through their media empires ? Liberals ? Comminists ? Or maybe….Jews.
Report Post »BetterDays
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:11amSeems to me that when we who are Christians get home, we will find out if Abraham Lincoln is there or not. Of course once there, if he is not this story will be moot.
Report Post »The more I learn about history, and prior to Glenn I had studied it, the more I question a great deal about Lincoln’s presidency. His declaration of war using the original “war powers act” has led to the debacles we are involved in today, police actions. some have even correctly pointed out that the act of war was an unconstitutional act as I violated STATES rights as to their own self determination. I don’t condone slavery, but a sad fact is that slavery is still with us today after a fashion. Today we are economic slaves to a fraudulent financial system of debt that was created from nothing and has no cause for collection. Yet off to work we go as our Government taxes us to pay off these frauds, in other words indentured servants, or slaves.
All that being said, I pray that Abraham Lincoln will be in heaven.
jedi.kep
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:07amJust another liberal, anti-God/Jesus/Christian attack trying to undermine the true faith of some of our greatest presidents.
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:12amReally?
A letter written in 1866????
Admit it, little one…. you didn’t even READ the article, did you?
No surprise here.
Report Post »dawg of gawd
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:55amDoc . . . you won’t win any arguments here, because conservatives don’t make any arguments here. Butif you wanna read stuff like “You’re a doody head . . . I got lots o’ gubs, come get ‘em . . . I‘m just callin’ a spade a spade” . . . well you’re in the right place.
Report Post »conversationcanwork
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:04amDawg, are you George Soros?!
Report Post »Nick Pable with Buckshot
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:11am@Dawg of Gawd
Report Post »Welcome back.
SimpleTruths
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:27amGood to see you Dawg, and I for one don’t think your a doody head.
Report Post »ozchambers
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:33pmHey, its a liberal troll roll call!
Report Post »DarthVader
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:04pmRumor has it, he was a bit gay too. More evidence that the secular, gay promoting progressives were ruining our country by saving the union and ending slavery.
TheBlaze — what happens when you light pharts.
Report Post »teddrunk
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:02amFour score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom— and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
UNDER GOD
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:11amSorry… but the Gettysburg Address did NOT end with “Under God”.
Why attempt such am easily exposed LIE?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:17amlol docstrangelove, you are silly! He was pointing out the phrase “under God” is in the speech. Lol.
But that does not prove Lincoln was a Christian. Almost everyone believed in God at the time, even if they were not Christian. I believe he was a Christian from other writings, but does it matter? Only God knows!
Report Post »AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:34am@DocStrangelove
Report Post »Who are you talking to? jedi.kep didn’t say anything about 1866.
sooner12
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:40am@Docstrangelove
Look at the bottom of the speech, go up three lines and look at the end of that line you will find “under God.”
Report Post »This I think was what TEDDRUNK was emphasizing when he made his last “UNDER GOD.” Did you even read the speech?
DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:43amTROLLTRAINER..
Again… the SPEECH (Gettysburg Address) ENDED with the words, “….and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
He NEVER said “UNDER GOD”.
Period.
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:57amALLAMERICANG…
He alluded that this was some sort of “Liberal plot”.. and I pointed out to him that this ARTICLE was quoting a letter written in 1866….
Does he feel that this letter is a FAKE??
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:58amSOONER12….
I had committed the speech top MEMORY as a young child.. and Lincolns allusion to “god” is NOT inconsistent with his being a Deist… as he often spoke of the “God of NATURE”… and not some invisible man in the sky.
Report Post »JETinJAXFL
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:12amOK Doc, one more person to try to point this out to you. Here is the end of the speech: “…..that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom— and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” Go verify this anywhere. There are thousands of sites with this speech. Believe there is a mass consipiracy on the internet, fine, go to your local library. It is there. I do agree that does not make him a Christian but you are leaving out part of the speech. Why? Does it scare you?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 11:46amI think his point is there are numerous copies of the speech and we do not know which one Lincoln actually read.
Whatever…It is pointless to argue with him/her/it…And stop and think about it, does it even matter?
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:00pmDespite the number of drafts (5 in total written both before the 19th and after) this is the NY Times report on the 20th (day after the speech). It clearly quotes Linclon as having said “under God”. Here is the link to the jpg of the Times article.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Gettysburg_Address%2C_New_York_Times.jpg
Report Post »DocStrangelove
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:06pmOZCHAMBERS…
What are you BLATHERING about, throwback?
You BORE me.
Report Post »ozchambers
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:21pm@DOCSTRANGELOVE, Oh, the irony, being that you amuse me.
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:39pmHey Doc,
“Every stenographic report, good, bad and indifferent, says ‘that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom.‘ There was no common source from which all the reporters could have obtained those words but from Lincoln’s own lips at the time of delivery. It will not do to say that [Secretary of War] Stanton suggested those words after Lincoln’s return to Washington, for the words were telegraphed by at least three reporters on the afternoon of the delivery.”
This report was about the three telegraphed responses on the day of the speech, and from reputible sources at the time….AP, Philidelphia Press and Boston Advertiser. This, along with my other posts, pretty much put your dogma to rest, only if you are willing to open your eyes.
Report Post »DR STRANGE LOVEs NURSE
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 2:06pmHe really is quite strange!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Eblaze44
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 6:21pmand we’ve been throwing it away since Woodrow Wilson.
Report Post »mrsmileyface
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:01amLincoln was “The Hand of GOD” and thank GOD that he was president at the time he was. Scarry to think otherwise.
Report Post »ozchambers
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:13amIf someone knew me during my service in the U.S. Navy, and for quite sometime after, they would know a guy who voted Democrat (I voted for Clinton both times), who believed that all religions provided ways to Heaven, and didnt attend church. But the birth of my daughter forced me to really confront my beliefs and I began attending a Christian church and The Lord, Jesus Christ woke me up and opened my eyes to His truth in a powerful way. I believe the same happened to Lincoln, during his presidency.
Report Post »TexasCommonSense
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:14amI agree mrsmileyface. He was a tortured man. He battled depression on and off most of his life. Between the war and having three of his four kids die, including the one with whom he bonded the most. I can understand how it all affected him. He was a great President, none the less.
Report Post »Cymry
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:15amamerican presidents are not what they seem to be. even when the contemporaneous pundits try to portray them in a certain light. those who are trying to portray obama as eligible for the presidency will be remembered as foolish.
Report Post »afishfarted
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:23amwell, I can’t remember the contxt of the quote or who he was talking with, but at the onset of the civil war the other party made a statement something like may God be on our side. Lincoln replied “No, may WE bo on God’s side”.
Report Post »The other observation I have is that why is this “letter” coming out now? Is it to validate Obama’s statement that we are no longer a Christian nation and later said We are more a Muslim nation?
felina g
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:24amLoads of crap falling lately.
Anyone watch the History channel last night ?
Report Post »stifroc
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:25amI fail to see how this letter is shocking, or radically alters the the way Lincoln’s faith is viewed. He was a Christian that doesn’t believe in the supernatural? Okay, what do you mean by supernatural? Ghosts? I know many many Christians that do not believe in Ghosts, or “displaced souls”. Lincoln questions God’s presence in the midst of the Civil War? (this nations most brutal and deadly war) Well who doesn‘t question God’s presence in the midst of such horror, death and destruction?
In the past 5 years there has been a subtle push to discredit and tarnish Lincoln, a great man, a great president and a hero of the republic. Maybe it’s been going on longer than 5 years, but I have encountered a lot of it in the past 5.
Report Post »AllAmericanG
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:27am@mrsmileyface
Yes, thank God indeed. There are certain events in history lead by certain men. Those men, I believe were put on this Earth for a reason… Ben Franklin, George Washington, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln and so on, because they had a large role to plan in furthering God’s plan for us – his children. Lincoln struggled and was often reluctant, but I believe he knew he was part of God’s plan, as did George Washington. I don’t think there is any coincidence that Lincoln had premenitions of an early death. I think God was telling him he had a purpose and Lincoln knew that. I also think that God allowed Lincoln to see that the war was not in vain and took him home shortly after the war had officially ended (even though there was still fighting for weeks and months before those in the west were made aware of the ceasefire). Much like Moses was allwed to view the Promised Land, but not enter. Lincoln was allowed to live to see the end of the war but not guide the country in reconstruction. His purpose had ended and it was up to us to do the rest. Much like Dr. King had a large role to play a 100 years later in doing away with discrimination.
Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:35amBefore I even would think of challenging the views of Lincolns faith, and mind you I indeed think he was doing the will of God here on earth at the time and place he was needed; I want to know if this letter is authentic.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:37amI’m sure the people behind the effort to paint Lincoln as a non-Christian are the same liars who try to say that most of our founding fathers were diests. Sounds to me like Lincoln was a Calvinist – they pretty much discount the supernatural, but they are definitely Christians.
Report Post »Marylou7
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:49amozchambers
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 10:13am
If someone knew me during my service in the U.S. Navy, and for quite sometime after, they would know a guy who voted Democrat (I voted for Clinton both times), who believed that all religions provided ways to Heaven, and didnt attend church. But the birth of my daughter forced me to really confront my beliefs and I began attending a Christian church and The Lord, Jesus Christ woke me up and opened my eyes to His truth in a powerful way. I believe the same happened to Lincoln, during his presidency.
___________________
That is a beautiful testimony. I believe the same about Lincoln.
Report Post »I Love Section 8 Housing
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:18pmlincoln was too smart to believe those fairy tales. only when he lost someone close to him and longed for the comfort of believing that they were not over forever did he embrace the fairy tales. he had it right the first time. when people die. they’re over. their identity and mind are gone forever. the electricity in their bodies goes somewhere though. probably into the ground.
Report Post »felina g
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 12:39pm“Question with boldness”……….yadda,yadda…………..
Good Man !
Report Post »I LOVE SECTION 8s LANDLORD
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 1:25pmYou still owe me 2 months rent you free loader. I am tired of all your unemployment checks coming to my address too. If you don’t start paying your rent on time your out on your ear buster !!!!!!!!!
trailzilla
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 2:00pmLincoln was a tyrant. He was also racist. He wanted to ship all the blacks out of the country. The war between the states wasn’t about slavery. Slavery was ending on its own because it wasn’t profitable anymore. Many southerners were learning that free men, paid men, were much more productive than slave labor. Every other country that abolished slavery in the 1800s did so peacefully. The same could have been done here. The man who wrote the song “Amazing Grace” played a huge part in freeing the slaves in Britain and war wasn’t needed. You all need to do some research into who Lincoln really was. He ruled with the barrel of a gun, just like Mao. He used force to get what he wanted. He turned us from a Confederated Republic, as our forefathers created, into One Nation. The war between the states was about freedom. Southern freedom from the oppression of the North. Please do some research before responding.
Report Post »sWampy
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 2:19pmHe was a progressive terrorist, who split the nation in half, let his generals commit war crimes that would have made Saddam and his sons blush, stole all the wealth from the south he could, burned what he couldn’t, who gives a flip what religion he was, whatever it was was just a scam to con the useful idiots to let him rape the nation.
Report Post »I Love Section 8 Housing
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 3:16pmI made this name for the irony because I work for someone who is a hardcore republican who HATES social programs and rants about it all the time but he owns a bunch of rental properties and fills them with as many section 8 renters as he can. so if you were the landlord of a section 8 renter then you wouldn’t be asking about a rent check. He hates section 8 renters but he loves that section 8 money.
Report Post »he thinks there’s a difference between the people who live off that and him building his retirement off of it. He loves section 8 housing. he’s a hypocrite just like most business owning republiclowns.
abc
Posted on April 15, 2011 at 6:04pmCensorship is not dead on the Blaze. I’ll try this again…
You have drawn the opposite conclusion from what the post is saying. Lincoln’s religion is difficult to decipher based on the evidence, so to suggest that he is unequivocally religious is to ignore the facts. Ignoring the facts, when it conflicts with your belief system, is an exercize in insanity. And if you are a voter in a democracy, it is bad for your country. It led to the fall of Rome, and it will lead to the same here. If you cannot form a view in your head that comports with the facts, then you ought to change your view, not ignore the facts. There was a wonderful editorial at cnn.com about this very subject. I’ll leave you to find it yourself, but the thrust of it dealt with Senator John Kyl‘s insistence that Planned Parenthood’s activities are 90% related to abortion when the reality is that only 3% is related to it. When asked to clarify, his aide said that his comments were not meant to be fact-based. This is proof that many conservatives cannot deal with reality and ignore the facts that get in the way of their views. This is beyond sad. It is dangerous because it hampers good policy making. Clearly, some here can appreciate that. The rest, apparently, would rather censor the message, ignore the facts, and live in a blissfully ignorant world.
Report Post »DonaldH
Posted on April 16, 2011 at 5:18amUnless you are of the “ends justify the means” variety, then certainly one would have to agree all aspects of Lincolns “greatness” are immensely over exaggerated. For God sake, he not only drove the nation into our bloodiest conflict to this date he also was the reason for the first Geneva Convention to be to be convened for the abuses of Confederate wounded and the intentional slaughter of civilians and destruction of private property.
In 1862 Lincoln appointed Henry Halleck General-In -Chief of the federal armies at which time the Lincoln Administration issued General Order No. 100 “The Leiber Code” which had basis from the philosophies of Francis Leiber who believed the American Founding Fathers created a “confederacies of petty sovereigns” and further dismissed the Jefferson philosophy of government as a collection of “obsolete ideas”
Lincoln was assassinated NOT because he defeated the South in the Civil War,, he was shot in the head because of the brutality in the way in which he defeated and brutalized the people of the South….
Report Post »There has never been a bigger tyrant nor war criminal to ever inhabit the White House then that of Abraham Lincoln…. And that aint just my humble opinion,,, that’s historical fact,, we just won’t cop to it….
At to that I close with a reminder of this; The Victors always write the History Books.
Derfel Cadarn
Posted on April 16, 2011 at 2:07pmIf Lincoln was the hand of god then god has very dirty hands indeed. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives expended and countless bodies and minds ruined ALL for the concept of the union. Not to stop slavery,one needs only to read Lincoln~s speeches to see that slavery was not a factor. Lincoln was responsible for breaking a great many laws and the death and ruination of a great many lives for unjust principles,for that reason alone he was NOT a great man.
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