Faith

Married Megachurch Pastor Fired After Admitting to Sex With 16-Year-Old Church Member

Churches are far from immune when it comes to scandal. This is the sad reality that has hit First Baptist Church of Hammond in Indiana, where Dr. Jack Schaap, 54, the pastor there for the past 11 years, is under fire. The allegation being waged against him? That the married pastor and father of two had sex with a 16-year-old female church member.

Now, here’s the irony — Schaap is married to the daughter of the Rev. Jack Hyles. Hyles, who ran the church until his death in 2001, was also accused of being involved in sexual and financial scandals. While he denied the charges waged against him, the church is clearly no stranger to controversy.

As for Schaap’s case, it appears a deacon saw a text message on the pastor’s phone from the teenager allegedly at the center of the scenario. The image purportedly showed the faith leader and the young girl kissing. During a Board of Directors meeting on Wednesday evening, church leaders said that Schaap subsequently admitted to having an affair with the young woman.

On Tuesday, the church put out a brief press release entitled, “First Baptist Church Pastor Dismissed.” While it failed to go into explicit details, the information presented within corroborated the fact that Schaap is no longer working at the church.

“At this time, we deeply regret the need to announce that First Baptist Church has dismissed our pastor, Dr. Jack Schaap, due to a sin that has caused him to forfeit his right to be our pastor,” the release reads. “First Baptist Church is in full cooperation with our local authorities in their investigation of this matter. Our church grieves over the need to take this action and the impact it will have on our people.”

Dr. Jack Schaap Fired From First Baptist Church of Hammond Amid Sexual Scandal

Dr. Jack Schaap (Image Credit: Hyles-Anderson College)

The release goes on to ask for prayer for the families and individuals involved and it expresses hope that the situation can “be handled in a Christ honoring manner.“ The portion of the release that mentions working with ”local authorities” does cause one to wonder if a crime was committed.

But it should be noted that, in Indiana, 16 is the legal age of consent for sexual activity — the lowest of any U.S. state. The church claims that the case was turned over the authorities “for the sake of transparency and honesty,” not because a crime had been committed.

“No charges have been filed, but the FBI is said to be investigating allegations that multiple sexual encounters took place with the same girl across state lines,” WGNTV.com reports.

According to Trisha Kee, a former church member, the pastor had been counseling the young girl at the time of the affair. While this hasn’t been confirmed, the church reports that Schaap and his wife, Cindy, are in seclusion and working on their marital problems.

“I’ve been in this church my whole life. We trusted that man,” said Terry Duff, chairman of the board of deacons. Duff went on to say that the situation was handled and reported the moment that it came to the attention of church leaders.

First Baptist Church of Hammond, a well-known megachurch, is said to have about 15,000 church members.

(H/T: Daily Mail)

Comments (395)

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  • indy1
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:50am

    Another mirage man. It affects Christians and atheists alike.

    Report Post »  
    • midwesthippie
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:56am

      …just being a good christian…osteen is next…

      Report Post » midwesthippie  
    • rickc34
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:19am

      Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
      When a pastor or church member falls the wicked will try and judge the whole body on what one member has done. Temptation comes to all of us but it is how we react in that moment of weakness that will effect our lives whether we believe in God or not. The jails are full of those that could not resist and gave in and everyone is guilty of sin. Do not judge God and his word by the deeds of man, God is not a man that can be taken by temptation and sin.

      Report Post »  
    • mtcountrygrl
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:33am

      Sad when someone falls like this. Even sadder for his family. But it is right for him to be removed, the Bible gives strict requirements for Pastors and Elders and even says they will be judged harshly if they stray. Of course we all sin, but a Pastor and an Elder are supposed to have their house in order. “A husband of one wife”, etc. The two biggest commands after having their family in order are stay away from sexual immorality and don’t steal from the church. Apparently God knew these would be the biggest temptations church leaders would face.

      Report Post »  
    • Trollkiller68
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:26pm

      It is impossible for a pastor to effectively shepherd 15k people. All pastors should have an assistant present while ministering to females.

      Report Post » Trollkiller68  
    • I support God's Israel!
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:59pm

      @rickc34:
      The Bible IS VERY CLEAR about judging one another in the Church.
      http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00269.html

      And another:
      http://bhmathis.blogspot.com/2012/03/judging-one-another.html

      A good source for Biblical instruction and information for followers of Christ:
      http://www.gracethrufaith.com

      Report Post » I support God's Israel!  
    • Jack Rackham
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:05pm

      @ RICKC34 I agree wholeheartedly and wish more Christians shared your sentiment when it came to the Catholic priest scandals. When someone in a position of power in the Church sins in a public way it is not a reflection on the Church but a reflection on the destructive nature of sin itself.

      Report Post » Jack Rackham  
    • rambosharley
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:05pm

      He should’ve followed Billy Graham and never be anywhere with a female alone……..EVER….no matter what age!

      Report Post »  
    • CafeConservative
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:33pm

      “I agree wholeheartedly and wish more Christians shared your sentiment …”

      I want to agree with your post but unfortunately there’s some line crossing here. Your second sentence is spot on when it comes to this church. *Immediately* after discovering the pastor’s misdeeds, he was confronted and deposed. It was the church saying this man is not a man of Christ and the church will not tolerate this kind of behavior. It shall not reflect on the members of this church.

      1 Timothy 5:19-20
      “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.”

      In the Catholic priest scandal, the “Church” went through pains to continuously cover up such behavior. There was no transparency and to this day we do not know how widespread the problem was and how high and low through the clergy the cover up went. It is much harder to distinguish in the Catholic example what is and is not a part of the “Church.” This is not meant to disparage individual Catholics, but until they start exerting influence and holding accountable their clergy, they will continue to share, in part, the blame.

      In short, Catholics need to return to the Bible and put aside “Church” politics (tradition).

      Report Post » CafeConservative  
    • JRook
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:38pm

      It is clear given the Jim Baker, Swaggert and now these jokers that church’s are equally corrupted by money and the power it brings. So much for it all being about the faith.

      Report Post »  
    • VRW Conspirator
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:44pm

      @Rambo
      YEAP YEAP YEAP!!…NEVER….
      A single or a married man should never be with a woman alone, especially if she is married or underage, unless she is married to him or he is unmarried and legally dating her..but even that should always be done in public and out in the open…which means junior, no going up to her place for a drink after the date….
      I learned that from my faith – Catholic – and my parents and family and from my business association with the World Wide Group….one of their cardinal rules…even if the woman is not currently married, she will be some day and even in business relationships, you never wish to give the impression to her or outsiders that something more is going on or might go on….
      the dad should never drive the babysitter home alone
      a man should never enter the house of a woman, if she is married, until her husband is home…unless of course he is a service repair man or something…and then the woman should either walk outside or outback until he is done

      it might sound a little “sharia law” like…without the full body burka….but it wasn’t that long ago…less than 100 years…that even in the USA, this was the social norm…until the 1920′s anyway..and then only in the big cities did it change…in middle America this was the norm until the 1960′s….

      a married and even a single man should never be alone and in private with a woman he isn’t related by blood to, sister-in-laws don’t count..

      Report Post » VRW Conspirator  
    • colt1860
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:44pm

      Wait! Hold the presses! The pastor has civil rights too. There should be a government law that prohibits discriminating against two people in love. Anyone who opposes infedility and adultery is just full of hate! This pastor deserves special privelages and special treatment. Society must accept his behoviour, and the law must protect him… They’re just in love.

      Freaking liberals and their binary universe…

      Report Post »  
    • PATTY HENRY
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:52pm

      SO you are another HARRY REID eh, Midwesthippie?? Do you have a clue about how WICKED it is to try to besmirch another’s character? Especially Osteen’s? Your mother evidently didn’t tell you “if you can’t say something nice, say nothing at all” did she? I don‘t think I’ve ever seen a post of yours, most are probably forgettable, but every one I see is smearing someone or saying childish things like you have here. I am sorry for you. For the record, there has never been one sliver of anything about Joel Osteen or his wife, Victoria in their 25 years + of marriage, or his church (if you don’t count the jealous). He is one of the good guys, trying to help and encourage people. What are you?

      Report Post » PATTY HENRY  
    • colt1860
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:05pm

      I believe we should ONCE AGAIN punish adultery in the great US of A. How can we have laws against having our grass too high, leaving our cars idly on, broken tailights, making too much noise at night, and yet a married man of one wife, two kids, who took a legally binding vow, go round about with other women and not expect any real consequences. We’re going down that road to perdition very quickly.

      We must return to Christ Jesus, lean not on our own understandings, and trust in the Lord God.

      “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”

      The Revival Hymn
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec5dJHtMTSg

      The great awakening and second great awakening occured with the reading and preaching of the Holy Bible. Practically all sects and denominations used the Authorized Version during this period. Why was this Bible so effective? Words like fornication, adultery, theft, hell, Godhead, sodomite, drunkeness, wantoness, reprove, and rebuke could NEVER be mistaken to mean something else, nor ever have its meaning evolve or become vague.

      Report Post »  
    • Realist4U
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:18pm

      They have laws in Chicago?

      Report Post »  
    • rickc34
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:48pm

      Some who read my earlier post may have got the wrong intent, when something like this happens it gives the left or someone that is new to the faith a reason to rail against the church and push them further away from God. This man will have his day in court, and when we sin we first sin against God as David said in Psalms . We must repent and turn from our wickedness. But many here judge but are guilty themselves of sin, so be careful when you judge it becomes easy to be to self righteous and just judge others when you have a plank in your eye. This man if guilty hopefully will repent and be restored to God, he may never hold a position again as Pastor those days are behind him, and may do jail time , but the important thing is his salvation. When a brother or sister stumbles and fall’s the church will cast him out to the wolves but do they pray for that person? Pray for his family, pray for the girl and pray for him, all are affected by this deed. Remember David and Bathsheba , God forgave David after he confessed his sin and humbled himself before God. The unbelievers rejoice when the Church is Divided.

      Report Post »  
    • holy ghostbuster
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 4:00pm

      Let the bum be judged by 12, and I’m not talking about the apostles.

      Report Post » holy ghostbuster  
    • midwesthippie
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 4:31pm

      …thanks for the lecture PATTY…i can find something nice to say about your pal schaap…it’s “nice” that he got-it-on with a 16 year old instead of a 14 year old…

      Report Post » midwesthippie  
    • BUDDY LITTLE
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:14pm

      @rick34…Do you want to do God a favor! SHUT THE HELL UP!!

      Report Post »  
    • ACTFORCHRIST
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:33pm

      Though I don’t approve of what he did and should have been dismissed, all of us have at one time or another made mistakes. The problem people have is they set pastors on a pedestal and have more faith in the man than in God. By doing this people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

      Report Post »  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:02pm

      If the pastor was gay, he would say adultery is okay because his partner okay with it, the age of consent should be lowered. He also would not be fired but be given a higher paying job.

      Who are the hypocrites?

      Report Post »  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:11pm

      I support God’s Israel!

      Interesting link

      Report Post »  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:31pm

      Rick,
      The guy had sex with a 16 year old. Think about that for a minute…… It would be one thing if he had an affair with someone his age. He finds 16 year old girls active. There is something wrong with this guy. This is not an issue that you can shrug you shoulders and say don’t judge.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:37pm

      Jack,
      “When someone in a position of power in the Church sins in a public way it is not a reflection on the Church but a reflection on the destructive nature of sin itself.”

      In regards to the catholic church, it is a refection of the church. The church leadership actively covered up the problem with pedophile priests. They kept moving them from parish to parish and destroyed children’s lives over and over again. That is flat out evil.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • txdave22
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 7:42pm

      GOP: PARTY OF FAMILY VALUES?—not a chance———-Bob Livingston, former Congressman (R-La.), Speaker of the House; resigned from the House in the wake of revelations about his past adultery — at the same time he was leading calls for impeachment of President Clinton.

      Donald Lukens, Former Ohio Republican Congressman, was found guilty of having sex with a minor – a girl he was accused of sleeping with since she was 13. Also convicted of taking $15,000 in bribes from the operators of a trade school while he was a congressman. A U.S. District Court jury in Washington deliberated for just one hour before reaching the verdict. Time Article

      Jon Matthews, Republican talk show host in Houston, was indicted for indecency with a child, including exposing his genitals to a girl under the age of 17. Source: ABC News

      Jeff Miller, (R-Cleveland), Senate Republican Caucus Chairman in Tennessee and the sponsor of Tennessee’s Marriage Protection act, getting divorced (as of April 2005) because of an affair he was having with an office aide. ——————Miller described the Tennessee Marriage Protection Act as a means of preserving the sanctity of marriage. He opposed an amendment, however, which stated that “Adultery is deemed to be a threat to the institution of marriage and contrary to public policy in Tennessee.” [11] [12]

      Nicholas Morency, Republican anti-abortion activist from Cape May County, NJ, pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his comput

      Report Post »  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:19pm

      txdave22

      Only that many Republicans? Really? Try Again Harder!

      Out of a nation of 300 million people with however many representatives over the years & you come up with that paltry list. Shame on you!

      Piker! Not willing to spend the time.

      How about this. Do a complete survey of all House Representatives & Senators. Makes a complete survey of all state representatives, senators & governors. Make a complete survey of all city councilmen, mayors & dog catchers. Do this for both parties since 1980 or WWII.

      Let’s see how Republicans & Democrat voters treat such things.

      Crane (R) makes out with a 17 year old intern. He is voted office

      Studs (D) makes out with a 17 y/o intern & he is retained in office & then goes onto say “Give us our space”.

      Try HARDER!

      Report Post »  
    • Two Sheds
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:07pm

      I don’t think Dawkins is sleeping with 16 year old girls… or boys.

      Report Post » Two Sheds  
    • sillyfreshness
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 1:58am

      It is alleged that the church member’s name is Harry Reid. More of this story as it breaks.

      Report Post » sillyfreshness  
    • CafeConservative
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:01am

      “it becomes easy to be to self righteous and just judge others when you have a plank in your eye”

      I suggest you keep reading past the plank. There is absolutely no encouragement by Christ to say, “well, since I’m a sinner, I can never ever discern whether someone else is sinning.”

      Matthew 7 is more than “Judge not lest ye be judged.” It is probably the most famously misused Scripture as none of the verses stand very well on their own though it doesn’t stop people from trying..

      Report Post » CafeConservative  
    • killsing
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 7:47am

      I always laugh when I see trolls like MIDWEST HIPPY making a futile attempt at trying to understand what a “Christian” is. They point with glee all those that fall flat on their face because in their misguided concept of a Christian is a Perfect person. NO ONE is perfect. I suppose it is a lot easier to be a MID WEST HIPPY, No one has any expectations for those like you. Taking a shower weekly is an Achievement for you, isn’t it? It takes mone cojones to live a good life than you will ever know, so I suppose it is so much easier to just say, aww, forget it! How about the millions that do incredible work to help the unfortunates of the world? Funny that you always over loook them. They are easy to find, look at any diaster anywhere on earth and the first people to help are always Christians. They cloth the naked, feed the hungry, visit those who are sick and in prison. A real Christian is an amazing person. Too bad you have no clue what that means. You passing judgement on them is hysterical. Basically you are condemning them for acting like you. Amazing huh? That is the beauty of dealing with liberals. The biggest hypocrites on the planet.

      Report Post »  
    • jimthomjr
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 9:00am

      If only Protestant ministers could marry, then this sort of thing wouldn’t happen. Oh, wait…

      Report Post »  
    • midwesthippie
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 2:21pm

      …wow KILLSING…you should write a novel about how many christians have been SUCKERED by the mega churches and mega rich mega famous televangelists. i have never said anything bad about the quiet do-gooder christians…you are so full of hot air and pomposity with your “christain-like(?)” comments and bigotry towards me based on my posting name…midwest hippie. yes i have long hair and wear sandals and love my red wine…so did jesus…

      Report Post » midwesthippie  
    • HappyStretchedThin
      Posted on August 4, 2012 at 2:02am

      @Indy
      You’re right, but the direction of change should be different. Good people sometimes fail to make the choices they know are correct. Christians recognize that we are ALL in need of forgiveness, and therefore understand context: he failed to live up to his standard. Atheists (of the evangelical, militant, Dawkins-ish sort, or TXDave) try to twist things to show that they failed BECAUSE of their religious values, and that therefore religious values are all equally stupid. Their fallacy in failing to recognize the difference between a religious principle and its abuse drives them away, whereas the failing of a leader should motivate Christians to review their own susceptibility to sin and to repent all the more sincerely, frequently, and deeply, thereby allowing Christ to bring them in even closer to Him.
      @JRook
      I’m in amazement at having to agree with you here. The introduction of economic profit into the Church has clearly diluted some of its leaders’ core principles. Christ and his Apostles didn’t get paid for religious services.
      @Kstret,
      You’re right that it reflects on the leadership, and they should all be punished according to their crimes whether for committing heinously immoral acts, or for covering them up. However, don’t make the mistake the atheists make of confusing abuse of their own doctrine with their doctrine. Nothing the Catholics believe as doctrine led to those abuses. They happened IN SPITE OF their own doctrine.

      Report Post » HappyStretchedThin  
    • FoxholeAtheist
      Posted on August 21, 2012 at 6:44pm

      Across state lines? Let‘s hear it for Brother Love’s Traveling Salvation Show.

      Report Post » FoxholeAtheist  
  • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:45am

    The man should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if it is found he was in a state with a higher consent age. I for one sugest this church step back and take a serious lQQk at its own spiritual condition since it has been led by a man in seriously debased sin for who knows how long. I grieve for those who will feel emboldened to speak against the Lord because of this man who could be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Those who would assume to be teachers be warned, God will hold you in stricter judgment and like Achin he is able to expose your sin in a very public way.

    Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • Locked
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:03am

      The age of consent thing is all kinda of messed up. At 16 you can’t sign a legal contract, join the military, or vote. Heck, in Indiana you can’t even get anything but a “trial license” until 18. You are, in all ways, legally a child. But Indiana thinks a child can legally consent to sex?

      This mean should be in jail, not just kicked out of his congregation. I hope this motivates the state to change the law and dissuade any future pedophiles.

      Report Post »  
    • PPMStudios
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:09am

      Taking a minor female across state lines for sex falls under the Mann Act (White Slave Traffic Act).

      He can be prosecuted for that…

      Report Post » PPMStudios  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:39am

      I would say that it’s not “speaking against the Lord” as in showing the faults of Christianity and religion in general.

      I think cases like these(and how Christians respond to them) show the way in which they view their lives and their religion.

      I think a lot of Christians(and religious people in general) live in a world of self contradictions that never lend itself to them really examining what they believe.

      In posts about Christians who do bad things you’re bound to get a good chunk of people who say, “not a real Christian” because they believe that no TRUE Christian would actually do such a thing.

      I get told that “the way is narrow” and then get told to look at how many people believe in Christianity, therefore it must be true.

      I get told, “just truly repent and ask Jesus to come into your heart, and he will”, I then get told “God chooses us, we don’t choose God.”

      I get:
      Good event happens = God is love
      Bad event happens = God is mysterious, who are we to judge God(which is ironic because they have no problem with judging him as good ).

      I was discussing this with my friend who is an Evangelical pastor and a Calvinists. I was saying that if God is love, why does he create so many people knowing they will go to hell? Knowing that they won’t accept Jesus as their savior? If he’s so full of love, why would he create so many people(remember, the Bible says the way is narrow), that are doomed for an ETERNITY of punishment for simply being

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:52am

      “simply for being born.”

      He then went into some speech about he believes in some kind of “awakening” that will turn billions of people toward Jesus and thus be saved. I was kind shocked because I had never heard this argument before, and it was coming from an Evangelical pastor, so I thought he would have some great evidence from the Bible to back up this claim.

      I asked, “oh, where does it say that in the Bible.”

      His response?

      Well God told Abraham that he would make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. Well there are billions and billions of stars in the sky right?

      I was just really shocked that he was trying to make that type of argument.

      As we’ve talked about before, I take the weak stance on atheism. That I don’t think a God exists, but I could be wrong.

      I guess the main problem was, I always thought religion was a belief. That it’s something you have faith in. What I see a lot of people talking about is that they “know” a God exists. I had a friend tell me that his form of Christianity was both fact based and faith based.

      It’s why I eventually left the church but have stayed very good friends with the people from that church. I could no longer stand what I viewed as hypocritical statements, self contradictory stances and intellectual dishonesty that it took to be a religious person. I also couldn’t stand the fundamental nature of Evangelical Christianity and what I viewed as willful ignorance to basic science.

      Report Post »  
    • oneshiner
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:54am

      Whether the girl is of age isn’t the story here, although mighty important. But this type thing happens way too often about women & children being exploited by these pervs.
      We had recently a District of Attorney jailed for trying to force women into sexual encounters. There’s a local pastor who councils women and uses that excuse to have sex with them. A woman & her husband confirm this story.

      It‘s a hell of a world when you can’t trust those in positions of what we think is trust.
      Makes me wonder about so many helpful people what their real cause is; helping the person or setting them up for a personal relationship for ulterior use.

      Just look at the most recent: Sandusky and all those little boys he suckered in with his kindness. Disgusting! And, I believe there are many more out there if it comes close to home with the DA and a local pastor. Heard a number of these stories, but was never quite sure I believed them, but so many kids & women are so gullible.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:43pm

      MOD….If self-contradiction exists for those who believe in an absolute moral standard given by a Moral law giver, then the moral relativist is in serious trouble with regard to a contradictory presupposition. In fact, it makes your statement essentially irrelavent in that no standard for right or wrong really exists. I am not about to say he is or is not a real Christian as I do not know him personally, also “real Christians are capable of great evil, eg David is just one example. However, I owuld ask you, do you not believe that someone could claim they are something and really not be sincere? Wolves in sheeps clothing is a very real concept to a Christian and the bibles teaching. Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. To not accpet this possibility is simply illogical as people can and do deceive others. I do agree that many Christians inadequately explain the role God plays in the affairs of men. I do not or will not shy away from those explanations. God is both good and perfect in all he does, however, if you assert that God is not also Just and judges evil actions of individuals and Nations then you misunderstand the character of God. Now to discuss the theology of predestination or free will is a discussion that is difficult for us to undertake because as it is now you don’t even believe God exists. CONTINUED…..

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:54pm

      While I am well versed in the idea of predestination, I would say it is a difficult topic to discuss in this format due to its complex nature, but I am willing to try and answer any question you might have. With regard to what you asked your friend, it really is irrelevant question for this reason. If God exists as the bible describes and he knows all including the future then whether he allows you to choose or he chooses you really does not matter because I could say even if he let’s you choose that he knows if you will or not so why did he create you in the first place knowing your ultimate destiny? Agreed? So that is a question we mus address regardless. (I will in another post if you want me to). I do not agree with your pastor friends answer at all about an awakening. I believe almost the opposite as Jesus said in the last days the love of most would grow cold and wickedness would increase in the last days. I would say that your definition of faith is not my definition based on the problem you have. You have faith that a chair will hold you up when you sit in it. It is a very reasonable faith given the fact that there is plenty of evidence to suggest it should, but the chair could be broke, it is possible it would not hold you up. You have just exercised faith, a very reasonable faith. Same with the brakes on your car. In the same way the Christian faith is based on a collection of evidence that makes it very reasonable.. CONTINUED…

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:03pm

      @ MOD… Does this mean that every question is answered? Of course not, but no other worldview answers every question either. However, after much examination of many fields of study and many worldviews, biblical Christianity explains, in a reasonable and evidence based fashion, the reality of this world and life better than anything I have ever investigated. Especially the existence of the concept of good and evil, forgiveness and redemption and the concept of morality common to men. I too am grieved by the hypocrisy of Christians who give trite answers to lifes difficult questions and do not possess a handle on the deeper things of the bible. I also am deeply grieved by those who claim to be of the faith but then shame the name of Christ by their behavior (I guess we all do this to a point at times as we all sin). However, we must bevery careful not to indict God because of the evil of men. Thanks for all your time in your comment. Have a good day MOD let me know if you have any questions….

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:50pm

      @Hippo

      I personally don’t think absolute morality exists. I think morality is relative. As I’ve said before, if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable. Everyone has different moral standards(which is why you had Christians who used the Bible to support slavery, and you had Christians who used the Bible to condemn slavery).

      No, I agree that people can say they are something, and not be sincere. Unfortunately that isn’t the case though because I see how easy it is for people of faith, to call other people from different denominations a “non Christian.“ What would be a judge of a ”true” Christian? You and I will fully admit that it‘s not a Christian who doesn’t make mistakes, we all do. It surely isn‘t a Christian who doesn’t “sin(i put sin in quotes because I don’t think such a thing exists but I know you do)” because as we know, most forms of Christianity believe in original sin. We know there can be mass murderers who convert and can become “true” Christians, so it also has nothing to do with previous actions.

      I think it has to do with people building up their moral compass(Christianity) in their head to seem infallible. They base Christian morality, on their own morality, so when they see a Christian do a really immoral thing, it’s “oh well, they’re not a true Christian.”

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:59pm

      @CONT

      Which is why you can have people say “I’m a Christian” and I try to discuss with them Christianity(as I’ve been exposed to it) and they will say, “That’s not what Christians believe!“ I just read ”Bad Religion : How we became a nation of Heretics” and he spent the whole book saying how everyone was calling everyone a heretic, while he calls everyone he disagrees with a heretic.

      Before you had people who would say, “I’m a Catholic, I’m a Protestant, I’m a Methodsts, I’m an Evangelical” so I knew what kind of Christianity they followed before hand. Now when people say, “I’m a Christian” I have ask a bunch of qualifying statements and specifically find out what they follow. Not that I don’t like meeting new people, it’s just hard to go from person to person when they follow completely different versions of the same religion.

      I will skip the predestination thing as I don‘t think it’s really relevant. It just goes to “another form of Christianity” as I said.

      I instead wanted to focus on this notion of “faith.” as you described it as I think you made a contradictory notion(or at least one that I disagree with).

      You said, that I had “faith” in the chair by sitting down on it. You then said I had “evidence” to suggest my faith. There is where you and I disagree. If I have evidence in something, it is my view that I don’t need “faith” or “belief” in it.

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:14pm

      @CONT
      I recently had my appendix out. Did I have “faith” in my doctor? No.

      I looked at the evidence for why I think he would do an excellent job at removing my appendix.
      1. His medical degree
      2. He is still employed at the hospital
      3. He knew what he was talking about.

      If those things weren’t up to snuff, he wouldn’t be at the hospital being allowed to perform surgery.

      Faith would be having no standards as to what I think makes a Doctor, qualified and having them perform surgery.

      So while you may say that Christianity is based on “reasonable evidence” I would just have to say that I think you standard of evidence is less than mine.

      Look at the story of Thomas refusing to accept that the disciples had been visited by Jesus. It wasn’t only until after he touched the wounds that he “believed.” I would argue here that he didn’t “believe” he had reasonable evidence to think that it was Jesus. And what was Jesus’s response to this? “Blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed, because without faith, it is impossible to please God.”

      When people ask me what evidence I would need, I usually tell them that if I were here at the “end times”, and Jesus came down and started performing miracles, that would be sufficient evidence. I always then point out that it’s ironic that a lot of Christian believe, that at that point, it would be too late to “believe.”

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    • Walkabout
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:46pm

      Locked
      Your 1st paragraph makes a lot of sense. The only right they give you is the right to have sex, but not drive, vote, enlist or buy & sell property.

      But technically speaking he is an ephebophile not a pedophile.

      Ephebophilia refers to a primary or exclusive sexual interest of adults in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophile

      But Greek gays were ephebophiles, so I guess we must bow down to their superior morality

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    • KStret
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:53pm

      Mod,
      “I personally don’t think absolute morality exists. I think morality is relative. As I’ve said before, if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable.”

      What a ridiculous comment. When slavery was accepted and legal, there was a large movement that believed that slavery was wrong. To argue that if slavery was still legal and permissible, people wouldn’t have a problem with it, is laughable. I though you use reason and logic before making a comment?

      Secondly, absolute morality would mean that something is right or wrong regardless of whether we recognize it or not. Even if people believed slavery was good, absolute morality would mean that slavery is still wrong.

      Last, If you don’t believe that absolute morality exists, you can’t make moral judgements. You are taking the position of a moral relativists. I seen many of your comments on here and you do not argue from a position of moral relativism.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 7:23pm

      Mod
      “So while you may say that Christianity is based on “reasonable evidence” I would just have to say that I think you standard of evidence is less than mine. ”

      Your entire bag of atheist cliches and slogans are all predicted on logical fallacies but you have a higher standard for evidence? Really?

      You also made the standard youtube atheist claim that Hitler was a Christian. This notion is based entirely on quote mining. The people who make this claim have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. To claim you base you decisions and opinions on logic and reason, turn around and show you can‘t even do the most remotely simple task of reading a freakin’ history book, is dumbfounding.

      The moment you run into a Christian whose arguments are not predicated on throwing bible quotes at you or telling you that you are going to hell, you run away, and pop up on another story making the exact same argument while acting as if you are intellectually superior. Your faith revolves around atheist websites who make horrible arguments.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 7:52pm

      @ MOD….at the risk of beating the dead horse. You do realize that the statement, “I odn’t believe absolute morals exist”, is an absolute moral judgement? It is in itself self refuting and contradictory. If it is true then it is false and therefore nonsensical. Having said that you didn’t really argue against moral absolutes, if anything you argued for them using your example of slavery because your presupposition is that it is bad. You stated, ” if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable.” You stated this as if it would be wrong for us to think it was OK today. Where does your sense come from that it is even wrong to begin with? You stated, “ Everyone has different moral standards”, while this is certainly true it hardly argues against the existence of absolute moral standards. It would simply support the bibles idea that we are rebels against that standard. Again, it is not a logical argument to argue against a moral absolute based on what people do because as you argued no man is perfect and all “sin”. that is not support logically for relativism it is an argument for the evil of the human heart. The marks of a true Christian are listed in various places throughout the NT as well as marks of a false believer. If you want we can make a list but they are there. Continued….

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:06pm

      @ MOD….”They base Christian morality, on their own morality, so when they see a Christian do a really immoral thing, it’s “oh well, they’re not a true Christian.”…..While I cannot speak as to what “other” Christians do (that seems to be the fallacy of over generalization or exaggeration), I can say my standard of morality is not my opinion but what the bible teaches using the principles therein as my compass. I can never say of people I do not walk with that they are or are not true Christians, unless they deny essential doctrines therin, based on their actions since Christian are capable of gross sin, eg. David, Moses, Lot, Paul, Sampson, to name a few. Thank you for your example in the doctor (I’m a physician so I can relate ha). It was a perfect illustration of my point. You dmeonstarted a faith in that physicisan based upon reasonable evidence. He had a degree, he met the criteria of the hospital, he has done them before, however, it was entirely possible (it happens all the time) that he could have messed up, been negligent, and brought harm upon you as a result. You had faith that that would not occur and it was reasonable to assume it would not. Same with the brakes on your car, but brakes do fail as there are many instances of it. So in my opinion it is a very solid illustration of the faith Christians possess as it is not blind and not without evidence based in reason. Continued…..

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:18pm

      @ MOD…Your litmus test of evidence is apparently less than Thomas’. Remember he walked with Jesus for 3 years and saw him perform many miracles including raising the dead and yet he refused to believ until he saw Christ and put his fingers in the marks. So was it that Thomas had insufficient evidence to believe? The others apparently believed. So could it be, that we today, having the full revealtion and plan of God in the bible actually possess more evidence than Thomas did? It seems that there is quite a bit of evidence but it always seems to fall just short of a persons sufficiency. I hope you would truyl investigate deeply and objectively, remeber I used to be an athesit until I engaged in an indepth investigation of the bible, its claims and the criticisms. Thank you…

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:01pm

      @KStret
      “You also made the standard youtube atheist claim that Hitler was a Christian. This notion is based entirely on quote mining. The people who make this claim have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. ”

      Who the hell mentioned Hitler here? Secondly, it’s not quote mining when the quote says, “I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. ” Secondly, whether or not he was a Christian or not is irrelevant, one thing is for certain, he wasn’t an Atheist and his soldiers DEFINITELY were Christians. The entire stigma around the man reeks of someone who believed in a higher power. Again though, I didn’t mention Hitler anywhere here, so I don’t know where this comes from.

      “The moment you run into a Christian whose arguments are not predicated on throwing bible quotes at you or telling you that you are going to hell, you run away, and pop up on another story making the exact same argument while acting as if you are intellectually superior”

      Wait, are you accusing me of something that you just did yourself? I don’t remember the last time I saw you on here. You “pop up” on this thread, make some kind of nonsense statement that I mentioned Hitler(I‘m assuming you’re saying I mentioned him in some other post?) and you‘re coming off as if you think you’re intellectually superior.

      Your entire post has to be a joke post, no serious person can say what you just said.

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:12pm

      @Kstret
      The Blaze chopped off my first post aimed at you. This post goes before the one above it.

      Wow, did you even read what I said? Go re-read what I said. I even pointed out in the very next sentence that people were for and against it during the time of slavery. I even said that “we” meaning “me and hippo” “might” think it was moral. Nowhere did I say or insinuate(in fact I even said the opposite) that everyone was for it, or that we would necessarily think it was morally acceptable.

      We define what is right and wrong. Let’s say that I think something is wrong, and society thinks it’s right and allows it. If society then comes to agree with me, was it then an absolute morality issue? You are essentially defining absolute morality after the fact.

      I always argue from my view of morality. I view what I think is morally right and morally wrong. I might change my mind on that and it’s up to us as a society as to what we allow.

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:34pm

      @Sleazy

      I’m just going to assume it was an honest error when you misquoted me. We both know that I would never qualify my stance on morality by saying “I believe…” :-D

      Secondly, I get where you’re coming from on the absolute morality argument but I think you might be flawed. Hear me out. I would argue that the statement, “I don’t think absolute morality exists” isn’t a moral stance on a specific moral issue, therefore it isn’t self contradictory. That might not make sense.

      We can now say slavery is wrong because we’ve been brought up being told slavery was wrong. One could argue our goal should be to minimize human suffering. We as a society determine what we will and won’t accept. You and I might say slavery is wrong, but if we die and our future generations then say slavery is right, slavery in their mind, would be right.

      I think moral absolutes are itself a contradictory because what absolute are you basing it off of in the first place?
      If it’s a God, and we’re “rebelling against a standard” you are arguing for something that is inherently unknowable(because everyone interprets what their God says differently) and unattainable.
      If something is either always right or always wrong, you wouldn’t have difference of opinions. Again, you might say it’s a “rebellion” but then you are arguing for the unattainable in which case, morality is relative, not absolute.

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:49pm

      @CONT

      As you were an Atheist before a Christian, I was an Evangelical Christian before I was an Atheist.

      It wasn’t until I decided to take off blinders and not read the book with the presuppositions that everything in the book was true, and that it was a guide for morality, that I saw tons of contradictions and tons of immoral teachings.

      The core of Evangelical Christianity(and mainstream Christianity) turned me off of it. I don’t think people are born inherently evil. In my view, if I was alive at the supposed time of Jesus being crucified, I would have to try to stop it. At most I would have to protest again it and say I don’t want it done on my behalf. I could never go back to thinking it’s moral to send people to an eternity of damnation for the crime of “not believing.”

      I always struggled with stories like Adam and Eve, Noah’s Arc, Sodom and Gommorah, but I didn’t really think critically and how likely they were to be true. It wasn’t until I objectively looked at the book that I said, “yeah I can’t accept this stuff as true.”

      I could no longer look at a promotion and say, “God is good” and then look at suffering children and say “God is mysterious. Who are we to understand God’s will?” To me, if God is always good, then the only response to any event should be “God is good!” and not some platitude of working in mysterious ways. I view prayer as contradictory as well.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:19pm

      @ MOD…you are right I took liberty with your statement by summarizing and that was not accurate. You simply said you did not think moral absolutes existed. While I hear ya on stating that you don’t think …” isn’t a moral stance on a specific moral issue, therefore it isn’t self contradictory”. I would argue it must be a moral judgment because it is by its very nature asserting a morality, essentially that it is relative. Therefore based upon this presupposition you will base all decisions/evaluations regarding morality upon this statement. It therefore must be a statement of morality as it seeks to descrobe its very essence/character reagrding the truth of right and wrong which is the very definition of morality.
      “One could argue our goal should be to minimize human suffering”…I would argue this is a flawed argument because it assumes that suffering is something to be avoided. Suffering in itself may not be enjoyable but actually can be a very good thing. Through suffering charcter is deepened, compassion is fostered, suffering also alerts us to problems that need attention be them emotional or phsyical. The depth of love for others is accentuated through suffering/sacrifice. Let me illustarte. If you had a child addicted to drugs/destructive lifestyle would you not that a little suffering enter their life that might cause them to awaken to their choices that they might turn from their destruction. In this instance suffering is a “blessing”….CON

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:42pm

      @ MOD…also how do measure less suffering? What might alleviate suffering in one might actually cause suffering in another. Also, If a minority was enslaved by the majority so that the majority does not have to suffer hardship then is that morally OK as we would have decareased the overall suffering? Wether someone thinks something is right in their mind or not really doesn’t argue the point for or against absolute morality or relative morality as people have all sorts of notions, but that hardly can be evidence of reality.
      …”I think moral absolutes are itself a contradictory because what absolute are you basing it off of in the first place?” God’s word. Simply defined we could use the 10 commandments as a very simple and basic standard.
      …” you are arguing for something that is inherently unknowable(because everyone interprets what their God says differently) and unattainable” I Would say this is a false assertion as the 10 commandments are pretty clear as a simple moral foundation. I’ll even concede taking out the commandment about the sabbath and keep it strictly to relational morality.
      ….”If something is either always right or always wrong, you wouldn’t have difference of opinions.” Again this is an illogical conclusion as the standard can be constant as differing opinons do not suggest a flaw in the standard but rather in the opinions about the standard. Science operates in this way constanatly.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:56pm

      @ MOD…what immoral teaching and what contradictions do you see? Your issue with pain/suffering/ evil is dealt with very nicely in a short book by CS Lewis called the problem of pain. I would refer you to it to answer some of your objections in this area. I guess I would say your atheism makes evil in this world even more intolerable in my eyes because there is no ultimate jsutice. Hitler had a great run then put a bullet in his head and ended it quickly. No ultimate justice for all the evil he committed? Child rapists. molesters, abusers, murders that never get caught live out their lives in relative ease continuing to victimize the helpless and innocent with no consequnces? How do you deal with that thought? At least in my worldview no evil goes undealt with, everything done in secret will be shouted from the mountain top. All is laid bear and all will be answered for and all will be sentenced if not found to be in Christ. Atheism can offer no answer for pain, suffering, and injustice other than, “well that sucks” Ask yourself this, why has God allowed you to do the evil you have done to others? Why did he not just strike you down before you could do it? Or me or anyone for that matter. That is the nature of sin it defiles everything it touches. If we are born good then why do all do wrong? Why can’t we simply continue in the manner we are born if we are born good? Why do we become selfsih? Why do we become proud? Thank you for your time MOD….

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:30pm

      @Hippo

      But when we’re saying whether something is immoral or moral, we are judging that based on our own thoughts about morality. It is neither morally right or morally wrong to say that absolute morality doesn’t exist. Therefore I would think that it’s not a moral judgement.

      If your goal is to “allow” a “little suffering” to turn away from what you perceive as a destructive lifestyle, then you are already making the claim that they are suffering. By allowing a little suffering, you are thereby trying to minimize suffering.

      In your case, you could make the argument that black people suffering through slavery may be a blessing, because after all, a lot of those slaves(and their descendants) potentially ended up turning to Jesus Christ, and were then saved and went into Heaven. Therefore, their suffering through slavery was actually a blessing because they got saved where normally they might not have if they weren’t brought to America to be slaves.

      While a valid point about suffering but I think it would lead to morality being relative as we determine how much suffering to allow.

      Let’s say someone has lost their arms and legs, and they are suffering. So much so that he wants to kill himself. How would we try to alleviate that suffering? Counseling, love, medication? What if after all that, he is still suffering and just wants to die. Aren’t we then making him suffer more by not allowing him to kill himself?

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:46pm

      @CONT

      I think the 10 commandments are a poor moral guide as in the first 4 are all about God’s jealously and demanding of love and of the like.

      As a child, if I am constantly beat and raped by my parents, why should I honor them?
      Thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not steal were well known as guide to a more tolerable society before the Bible was written. One could argue that human civilization wouldn‘t have gotten to when the OT was written if older generations didn’t punish killers and thieves. Thou shalt not bear false witness is a good one but then it goes into another argument in that just because I find one good teaching in the Bible, doesn’t then mean everything else is true.

      Even Jesus’s talk(which I know isn’t in the OT) about doing unto others as you want have done unto you(which isn’t original) is a good teaching, but that’s only assuming everyone wants to be treated nice. If someone doesn’t care whether or not they get raped, that kind of preachment is downright dangerous.

      Yes, but if people can’t agree what the standard is, then “what the standard is” is irrelevant. What was the standard of Adam and Eve before they ate the fruit? They didn’t know good and evil until afterwards. It sounds like you‘re saying that if we hadn’t “sinned” then the standard would be what it is. Therefore, the 10 commandments wouldn‘t be the standard as we both know Adam and Even didn’t have kids until after, there were no other Gods, etc.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:53pm

      @ MOD…I think the statment of the fact that no moral absolute exists is something we won’t probably ever agre on because if absolute morality exists it is based on truth. To state there is no absolute morality is a statement about truth. Therefore, if it is true it is actually false because it is an absolute statement in itself. But I digress and step away from that dead horse. I think I will stand on my argument. While I agree that you are minmizing suffering in the long run the goal of that illustration was simply to show that suffering can be good so therefore it is illogical to suggest all suffering should be minimized as something inherently bad or to be avoided. That was the point of those examples. So I will stick by those points as well. I agree with your assertion about slaves suffering here yet finding Jesus. This is no different than the story of Joseph in Genesis who suffered only to bring slavation to his family from a famine. His suffering ended up being a blessing.
      …”While a valid point about suffering but I think it would lead to morality being relative as we determine how much suffering to allow.” Is this a bad thing in your mind?
      Take your example, if that man had family that did not want his life to end then what do I do? If I end his suffering I increase theirs permanently. Even if we agreed in this instance his suffering should be ended I think we both can see the danger of using this as the standard for basing morality. Thank you.

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:56pm

      @Hippo

      I read Mere Christianity and really enjoyed it, so I tried reading the Problem of Pain and it really bored me. I only got like 25 pages in before I had to put it down.

      I‘m sure we both agree that because you think something would be intolerable doesn’t mean that your stance would then be true, right? I can’t help it if in my world view, there is no “cosmic justice” if it means I‘m forced to accept things that I can’t honestly accept(noah’s flood, rising from the dead, genesis account for creation, etc) It also makes me that much more eager to seek out real justice here. It is Christianity that I see so often say, “well that person got raped and murdered but as long as she was saved, she went to a better place to be with Jesus.”

      What kind of Christianity do you follow if I may ask? Because I know that in a lot of Christian’s beliefs, anybody can be saved from any sin at anytime. Therefore, in their worldview, a murderer can slaughter tons of people, and then before he gets the death sentence, repent and say that Jesus died on the cross for his sins(I know, assuming he truly means it) and bam, he’s in Heaven. Whereas someone like me who has done some bad stuff, but nothing worthy of an eternal punishment, gets sent to hell simply for not “believing” and not accepting Jesus’s sacrifice on my behalf. That’s not morality in my eyes, but then again, it doesn‘t mean it isn’t true. I just think it’s highly unlikely that it is.

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:07am

      @ MOD…My friend the bible was handed down by oral tradition long before it was written. I owuld say that human society’s concept of murder or theft as wrong is rooted in this fact. Jesus teaching of do unto others was presupposed upon man’s inherently selfish nature of lQQking out for numero uno. If we are as concerned with the welfare of others as we are about oursleves then we will be doing right by our fellow man. There is nothing dangerous about that. Finally the standard would only be irrelevant if there were no moral absolutes. If they are then it is extremely relevant. Your conclusion is based upon your presupposition that no moral absolute exists. The standard before they ate the fruit was don’t eat that fruit. Pretty simple. Once they ate the standard expanded to include relational morality between God and fellow man. Even had we never sinned it would not have changed the fact that the moral law God gave would still have existed as it is derived from his very nature and that is eternal and unchanging, it is not based upon man. Thank you….headed to bed. Catch you tomorrow…

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    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:18am

      @ MOD….”I‘m sure we both agree that because you think something would be intolerable doesn’t mean that your stance would then be true, right? ” Could I not ask you the same question about your position?

      I find the the lack of answers atheism offers in regard to suffering evil and pain much more problematic for your position than mine for the very reasons we have mentioned.

      I would say that I am a disciple of Christ that believes the doctrines of Christianity as taught by the bible. I am not Catholic or Mormon or JW, I try to avoid man made labels and prefer to adhere to what the bible teaches. So what ever that makes me is what I am. I would like to think that I try to closely adhere to what the apostles would have taught the first generation churches/Christians to be. Night night very tired and have 7:30 surgery…

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    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:54am

      @Hippo

      Right, but I can want to kill someone for selfish reasons.

      In that case “Do unto others as you would have done unto you” would be a horrible teaching because
      If someone doesn’t care whether or not they get killed(psychopath, sociopath, someone who has a tumor on their brain impacting their judgement), then killing is okay because they are okay having it “done unto them.”

      I don’t see how you can say that the supposed “standard” is one of of absolute morality, can then also become “relational.” That would then be changing into something else, which then isn’t absolute.

      “MOD….”I‘m sure we both agree that because you think something would be intolerable doesn’t mean that your stance would then be true, right? ” Could I not ask you the same question about your position?”

      Yes we could, which is why I wrote

      “I can’t help it if in my world view, there is no “cosmic justice” if it means I‘m forced to accept things that I can’t honestly accept(noah’s flood, rising from the dead, genesis account for creation, etc) ”

      and

      “That’s not morality in my eyes, but then again, it doesn‘t mean it isn’t true. I just think it’s highly unlikely that it is.”

      Both of these statements suggest(and the last one explicitly says) that I live in the world which I think is most likely true and that accepting or rejecting an idea completely flat out doesn’t mean that those ides are then necessarily true/false.

      Talk to ya la

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    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 2:38am

      Mod,
      “Who the hell mentioned Hitler here?”

      You have repeatedly denigrated Christians while claiming that your mantra is logic and reason. You mentioned Hitler being a Christian on another message board. You position on Hitler is that exact opposite of using logic and reason.

      “Secondly, it’s not quote mining when the quote says, “I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. ”

      Actually it is. It shows once again that you have not done your homework. You went to an atheist activist web site that quote mined various snippets from Mein Kampf and some speeches.

      “he wasn’t an Atheist and his soldiers DEFINITELY were Christians.”

      You keep doubling down on you position and showing that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. What do you mean by his solders? The Army, the SS, or the SA?

      You do know that the German army was around a long before Hitler came to power, right? Does WW1 ring a bell? To argue that the army was Christian and to insinuate Christianity played a part in WW2 is a fallacious argument.

      The SS was controlled by Himmler. Himmler was into Nazi Nordic paganism or occultism. Himmler brought those occult ideas into the SS. To argue that the SS was Christian shows that you don’t know what you are talking about.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 2:42am

      Ernst Rohm was the head of the SA. Rohm was a homosexual, which was no secret to anyone. There were also many homosexuals in the SA. The SA were basically a bunch street thugs. As far as I know there was no religious aspect to the group. You would be wrong on that account too.

      “The entire stigma around the man reeks of someone who believed in a higher power.”

      Really, what are you basing that opinion on? Answer: Atheist web sites.

      If Hitler were a Christian, why would would he allow Nordic paganism and occultism to be part of the Nazi Mythology?

      If Hitler were a Christian, why would would he wage a war against both the Protestant and Catholic churches?

      Why would Hitler make disparaging comments about Christianity and religion including the Nazi ideology if the belief in God played a major rule in his life?

      Let me post your response for you:

      “Oh Yeah…… Well all the negative quotes attributed to Hitler comes from Hitler‘s Table talk and that book has been discredited by atheist who disingenuously want to blame Hitler’s body count on Christianity. The only source where Hitler said negative things about religion was in that book….so there!”

      Actually the book has not been disproved and it is not the only source of Hitler’s negative comments about religion. There are accounts that back up the book. Albert Speer, Hitler’s architect and later the Minister of Armaments stated that Hitler frequently said negative things about religion.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 2:53am

      “Wow, did you even read what I said? Go re-read what I said. I even pointed out in the very next sentence that people were for and against it during the time of slavery. I even said that “we” meaning “me and hippo” “might” think it was moral.”

      Ok….

      “I personally don’t think absolute morality exists. I think morality is relative. As I’ve said before, if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable. Everyone has different moral standards”

      “Nowhere did I say or insinuate(in fact I even said the opposite) that everyone was for it, or that we would necessarily think it was morally acceptable……As I’ve said before, if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable.”

      “Everyone has different moral standards(which is why you had Christians who used the Bible to support slavery, and you had Christians who used the Bible to condemn slavery).”

      The biblical position on slavery has been explained to you many times but you keep making the same point.

      Secondly, the issues was really about the south needing slave labor rather that a biblical justification for slavery. Some people believed that black people didn’t have souls rationalizing that it was ok to own them.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:04am

      “Wow, did you even read what I said? Go re-read what I said. I even pointed out in the very next sentence that people were for and against it during the time of slavery. I even said that “we” meaning “me and hippo” “might” think it was moral.”

      You were saying that you and hippo might think owning slaves was moral, correct?

      “I personally don’t think absolute morality exists. I think morality is relative. As I’ve said before, if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable. Everyone has different moral standards”

      The issue is whether slavery is objectively wrong. Pointing out that it as culturally acceptable at one point doesn’t address the issue.

      “Nowhere did I say or insinuate(in fact I even said the opposite) that everyone was for it, or that we would necessarily think it was morally acceptable……As I’ve said before, if slavery was never outlawed in the US, I‘d dare say that it’s likely we both might think it is morally acceptable.”

      “Everyone has different moral standards(which is why you had Christians who used the Bible to support slavery, and you had Christians who used the Bible to condemn slavery).”

      The biblical position on slavery has been explained to you many times but you keep making the same point. There were Christians who rationalized that blacks didn’t have souls to justify owning them as slaves.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:06am

      Cont..
      Secondly, the issue was really about the south needing slave labor rather that a biblical justification for slavery.

      “We define what is right and wrong. Let’s say that I think something is wrong, and society thinks it’s right and allows it. If society then comes to agree with me, was it then an absolute morality issue? You are essentially defining absolute morality after the fact.”

      You are totally missing the point. Absolute moral values would mean that something objectively wrong even if the culture deems it is permissible. Even if the culture deems it is permissible, it is still wrong.

      If the Nazis won the war and controlled the world, the Nazis would be considered heroes. However, what the Nazis did was objective wrong even though most of the world believes that they are heroes.

      If you take the position that morals are a cultural construct and there are no absolute objective morals, you cannot say that the Nazi Culture is any better or worse than any other culture.

      Is this statement true or false:

      It is objectively wrong to murder babies for fun.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:18am

      Mod,
      “I always argue from my view of morality. I view what I think is morally right and morally wrong.”

      You are contradicting yourself. You are taking the position that objective or absolute morals do not exist. In other words, morals are illusions. Morals are just a cultural construct and/ or part of evolutionary process. On one hand you are saying that morals are (I assume) illusionary cultural constructs meaning the culture determines what is moral and you are making moral judgments after the fact. If that’s true, Nazism isn’t objectively worse than a Jeffersonian constitutional republic.

      If atheism is true, the default position for morals would be the law of the jungle. Under atheism, there would be no objective moral values at all. Animals rape each other all the time in nature, why should humans be any different, especially when all we are is more evolved chimps?

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:20am

      Hippo,
      You are making great points.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 3:34am

      “But when we’re saying whether something is immoral or moral, we are judging that based on our own thoughts about morality.”

      You believe that morals are subjective? If something is subjective you cannot say one person‘s thoughts about morality is any better than another person’s subjective thoughts about morality. Look at how this plays out:

      A man is walking in he woods with his girlfriend and comes across a person who thinks the man’s wife is attractive. This person’s own morality dictates he can do what ever he wants. He finds the man’s wife attractive and he is in the way. He beats the man to death and than rapes his wife and kills her.

      The man and his wifes personal morals were that it was wrong to rape and murder. The murder’s subjective moral belief was that he can do whatever he wants. You view dictates that it’s all subjective. You can‘t say the view it’s wrong to rape and murder is better than the view that it’s permissible to rape and murder.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • Locked
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 7:59am

      @Walkabout

      “But technically speaking he is an ephebophile not a pedophile.

      Ephebophilia refers to a primary or exclusive sexual interest of adults in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19.”

      You know his sexual desires… how?

      Odds are, as he’s married and presumably has had sex with his wife, he does not only find 15-to-19 year olds sexually attractive.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 8:40am

      @ MOD…when I used the term relational commandments it was a form of categorization for the purpose of our discussion. In other words I meant lying, stealing, murder, respect and no the ones that have to do with God since I know you are an atheist. So I was not making them relative but using nomenclature to identify which ones I was including. I saw later after rereading that you were asking if we could both agree on the intolerable not necessarily being false and I agree, but it is a matter of consistency I was pointing out, that you cannot logical question the existence of God on the grounds of suffering, evil etc. without conceding that the same problem exists for your position. I believe I can make a very logical argument and answer for the problem that I don;t believe you can. Thanks have a good day.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 4, 2012 at 1:29am

      Mod
      “Nowhere did I say or insinuate(in fact I even said the opposite) that everyone was for it, or that we would necessarily think it was morally acceptable.”

      That was my mistake. Unfortunately I some how manged to get a summer cold and haven’t been feeling very good.

      “and you‘re coming off as if you think you’re intellectually superior.”

      I don‘t think I’m intellectually superior at all. I don’t think reading a history book first and then making up my mind makes me intellectually superior. Coming to a conclusion without picking up a history book and basing your conclusion on quote mined snippets with out looking into the full historical context has led you to a totally ignorant opinion.

      To form an opinion like that, then claim that you are all about logic and reason, and to constantly denigrate Christians is a tad hypocritical.

      Report Post » KStret  
    • KStret
      Posted on August 4, 2012 at 1:38am

      Hippo,
      Many atheist are now attempting to use the Sam Harris defense. They just assume the human suffering is objectively bad and alleviating human suffering is good. Many of them still hold to the opinion that there are no objective or absolute moral values. I believe Harris does believe that there are objective or absolute moral values but he failed to root hem in anything.

      When you argue that there are no absolute moral values but human suffering is wrong, it’s an incoherent argument. Why is human suffering wrong or bad? Every species of animals suffers to so degree. Why should humans be any different?

      Report Post » KStret  
  • VoteThemOutNow
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:44am

    So much for prayor.

    Report Post »  
  • john vincent
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:38am

    My guess: the fellow was not much of a pastor BEFORE the tryst. In other words, he was a criminal long before he got caught.

    Forgiveness avaulable??
    you betcha, but he’s now disqualified from any public service-should take a job as janitor; no insult to janitors.

    Report Post » john vincent  
    • Verceofreason
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:59am

      He was Pastor for 11 years.
      Do you folks even read the articles?
      Now he’ll have plenty of time to enjoy his yummy chick-fil-a chicken.
      He sho‘ loves the ’chicken’!

      Report Post » Verceofreason  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:13am

      verce-
      there are alot of ‘pastors’ who are criminals-
      the 11 years means nothing-
      read the qualifictions for elders in 1 Tim. an Titus;
      this man was clearly UNqualified-
      just goes to show people want their ears tickled- u can be sure, there was a whole lot of evidence that this man was a few donuts short of a dozen

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • UpholderOftheConstitution
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:35am

      John, please enlighten us sinners on how this man was unqualified to take the pastor position of this church? Please explain your pitiful claim.

      I was never a fan of First Baptist or Hyles-Anderson College, or Jack Schaap or Jack Hyles for that matter, but unqualified to be pastor is clearly a baseless accusation. Back up your words, Sir, before someone with a higher IQ tramples on your baseless accusation.

      Report Post »  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:10am

      upholder
      and here i thought it would be a hard question.

      -He MUST be above reproach MUST….. (not a suggestion, a divine imperative)
      -He MUST be faithful to his wife…MUST….
      -He MUST must be self controlled… MUST
      -He MUST be blameless…MUST
      -He MUST be disciplined…MUST
      See the pattern????

      Argue with God, and leave your insults at the door- This is a serious position, and men take it lightly-His indiscretion (not fornication, or adultury) was with a girl his daughters age. Get It??? A CRIMINAL offense-
      THIS is what make him clearly unqualified. And I stand by the initial remark, this was in his heart, long before….

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • ConservativeCanucklehead
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:50am

      JOHN
      Are those the ‘qualifications’ to be a “pastor”? Are you sure?

      Are you troubled at all by — or even aware of — the fact that the word “pastors” appears only once in the New Testament (the word “pastor” doesn’t appear at all), and nowhere is the term even remotely defined? I should think it more troubling still to “bible-believing-Christians” that the whole of Evangelical Christianity is now essentially built around this particular office.
      Hmmm … mentioned only once and nowhere defined, yet absolutely central to the religion. Doesn’t that seem weird?
      I‘m sure you’ll have some perfectly logical explanation though.

      Report Post »  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:37pm

      conserve:
      I’m hesitant to address your concern (and a rather good one) because of time/space restraints; but the ‘pastor’ is a man who GOd has made-therefore his stamp will be evident. Kind of like Abraham being justified through faith, THEN offerering Isaac….so here is the action/proof of a man right with GOd.
      However, Abraham lied about Sarah, (still a justified man with shortcomings) and GOd did not retrieve his blessing.

      The ‘pastor’ is a gift, cannot be rescinded by God as well, but I could offer one word of distinction: the true pastor is to be pastor ‘in’ the church, not the pastor ‘of” the church. This addresses your concern as to the reason the position has been abused, for the misunderstanding has created a vast theological machine.

      No one person can be trusted with the ‘one man’ power thing, and God knows best. Bottom line? There are pastors, they do their work quietly and without regard, seek no name or fame, and are doing all the good they can. As far as recognizing them: they are already doing the work, and if true, the qualifications will be spot on.

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • ITGuy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:02pm

      I think you are missing the true flaw in Johns argument. He’s going by the assumption that the congregation new of his problems before they hired him 11 years ago. Who could know that. Going by the story, he only had a “relationship” with this one girl for less than a year. So how in the world would he be unqualified 11 years ago? And how could they possibily have any idea what he would do 11 years later?

      Report Post »  
    • ConservativeCanucklehead
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:27pm

      Hello to the IT GUY!
      Yes, I realize I was going tangental. I was wanting to draw attention to the fact that “Pastors” — utterly central to the institutions and practices of organized Christianity — are mentioned only ONCE in the NT and are not defined in the slightest. Thus, this essential office is based on total conjecture at best, and is really an absolute fabrication (even using the “believer’s” sacred text as a measuring stick). But hey, that’s true of virtually everything else in Christianity, and all religions for that matter.
      I’m just trying to point out what the willfully blind refuse to see. That is my outreach ministry.

      Report Post »  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:33pm

      IT
      fair point- but not accurate
      actually, i was not going under the assumption that ANYBODY knew about this; one, five, ten years back. The young girl is really not the issue, that is an ancillary distraction.

      THe question on the docket is:
      What makes a man a pastor?? ie. and
      WHO makes him so?? How?? Please refer to the above posts for further light.
      By the way, the gentleman could be a very fine christian man, who just got trapped-
      but its not the issue here

      Who made these men? Rev AL sharpton??? Rev. Jeremiah Wright??
      The REv Louis Farrakhan? Answer this and you will gain some insight.

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • psychosocial1
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:20pm

      I would like to expand on some of your comments. Is it possible for a pastor to effectively lead a congregation of 15,000 members? It would seem to me that one man leading a congregation of that size would need many assistant pastors and would necessarily be elevated to a higher stature than that of a typical pastor. Additionally, many of these megachurches have huge “crystal” palaces that seem to be a bit too gaudy in their appearance, and these churches and their leaders are given an elevated status because of their size. It all seems a bit “un-christian” in nature given that Jesus was perfectly content to preach to the masses in the fields.

      Report Post » psychosocial1  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:56pm

      psych
      it appears u answered your own question

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • ITGuy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:27pm

      Yeah, i went over your previous posts only to the conclusion that your point was that he was “UNqualified” from the get go, and your reasons for his disqualification were all issues that pertained to his recent infedility. If you were trying to get at some grand epiphany that all Pastors are so because of self proclamation is kinda asinine. The church, any church must have leaders. If there is no pastor, board members, decons, elders and so forth, there would be nothing but anarchy. You get three or more people together in a church and with in 30 minutes there will be two seperate groups cause they can’t agree on the color of the carpet. Pastors for the most part go to school and learn what is needed to lead a group. Some don’t but all are put there by either the congregation or the other leaders in the church. and if they are not the Godly men that they sold themselves to be they can get fired or you can walk out the door and find some place new.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:36pm

      @ CONSERVATIVE….There is a very simple answer. There are four main terms used to describe the same position of authority: (elder, overseer, shepherd, steward) in the NT. There are different descriptive terms for the same office. In the same way Christians are referred to as priests, saints, children, citizens, soldiers, etc. Similarly we have different descriptive terms for the characteristics of eldership. All those terms simply address those who are overseers of the body they serve. No problems at all and the qualifications are spelled out quite clearly. So not really sure what your point was or what problem you think exists, as Presbureros (experienced), Episcopos (oversight), Poimen (protection), Oikonomo (trustworthy), Presbuterion (plurality/equality) all refer to an overseer as the previous greek words are where we get the different labels describing the same office (pastor, elder, shepherd, bishop, steward, overseer). Thank you and hope that answers your question….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 7:10pm

      nice work hipps

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:55pm

      @ JOHN..thank you and God bless !!!

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • ConservativeCanucklehead
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:57am

      SLEAZY
      Actually … it doesn’t come close addressing to the question. Though to be fair, this really isn’t a useful forum for meaningful debate. Besides, those IN the religious system (any religious system) predictably, reflexively rationalize away the obvious inconsistencies and errors. They are happy, comforted, re-assured merely to have a ready response, whether it is meaningful or not.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 7:22am

      @ CONSERVATIVE….Please explain where I have rationalized in my answer and how I failed to sufficiently address your assertion. Please clarify what inconsistency still remains that is not reasonable and logically addressed by my response to your assertion. Thank you.

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • LittleSmidge
      Posted on August 3, 2012 at 5:25pm

      @CANUCK
      ” “Pastors” — utterly central to the institutions and practices of organized Christianity — are mentioned only ONCE in the NT and are not defined in the slightest.”
      I’ve wondered about this too. I know every body says its not important or that a bunch of different words like Deacon or Overseer could mean the same thing (like Hippo says) but it doesn‘t expressly tell us in the scriptures that they’re the same thing.
      Plus whatever a Pastor is, the scriptures also don’t describe anything like the ordination process that everyone goes through to become a Pastor these days – Bible College or Seminary or what have you. Now if we’re supposed to “biblical” about everything, how did we ever end up with Seminaries and Bible Colleges anyhow? They really aren’t biblical at all. Any more than today’s Pastors are.

      Report Post »  
  • Jezreel
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:35am

    There are very few holy men who are separated and have had their minds transformed by Jesus Christ. Those who are considered in the word to be mature “elders”. A very easy way to find out if a man is a hireling and a fake is if he preaches “tithing” and the “trinity” and the “rapture”. Just three simple easy things that the world system of religion has made false doctrines about. Constantine added in Matthew 28:19 and truly perverted the scripture that told us to made disiples of men. He added the part to appease those who loved to worship other idols and made God into three persons which he is NOT. The fulness of the godhead dwells in Jesus Christ, not Jesus Christ in the godhead. We can acknowledge the plurality of attributes without making up and believing in a silly doctrine that offers no more than confusion that even Jews cannot receive as they only believed in one God.
    I am blessed to be married to a man that is not a filthy minded dirty old man. It is sad and disgusting how the world pushes in commericials on television about having “full erections”. It should make any believer sick and disgusted. Weak men who believe that being a man has something do do with that they have between their legs are deceived by all this nonscence and are like this foolish hireling that had an affair with a 16 year old. Hirelings are men who preach for a paycheck. Because judgment start first at the house of God and at us, we should pray that people will not give to hirelings

    Report Post »  
    • THERAPTURCOMES
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:50am

      WHAT, the Trinity is a foundational doctrine of Christianity and I can assure you that Jesus Christ is ALMIGHTY GOD. and the EVERLASTING FATHER. the ‘I AM’

      The resurrection/rapture are as plain as day if you know how to read at all. 1 Thes 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-55 are talking about this very event.

      So are you a member of the oneness cult?

      Report Post »  
    • Jezreel
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:59am

      I have never been a member of any religious cult. All denominations are cults and have carried over doctrines from the Roman Catholic Church, the doctrine of trinity being one. Just because it is taught, does not make it correct. In Christ, dwells ALL the fulness of the godhead bodily. Jesus Christ was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of the angels, preached unto the gentiles and received up into glory. After all, all the apostles were not wrong for baptising in the name of Jesus Christ were they? The first church is the firstfruits, they are the best, they taught the truth and were not adulterated until 300AD when Constantine added lots of evil satanic apostacy. If you want to believe man rather than God, that is your choice. You will be accepted into denominations for believing what they believe but you need acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ and ask him to have the truth set you free. Also, why in the heck do foolish silly people always believe that you have to be in some kind of oneness cult? All denominations are cults and I have never signed my name to any paper for church membership. Only Jesus can make you a member of His church.

      Report Post »  
    • focalpoint
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:16am

      “Oneness cult”?! If believing in a one person Godhead is a cult, then the entire Jewish religion is a cult. None of the original disciples of Jesus believed anything other than one God. The Trinitarian belief is a manmade doctrine that began centuries after the time of Jesus Christ. The Bible is full of references and admonishments about a singular God. Read the history of the Catholic church; it’s interesting that there were a series of individuals known as “Antipopes”, individuals who taught contrary to established doctrine. The very first Antipope was a man named Hippolytus. He was kicked out of the Church in large part because he taught what later became the doctrine of the Trinity, in opposition to Pope Zephyrinus, who believed that there was one God.

      Report Post »  
    • WhiteFang
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:23am

      Jezreel,

      I took notice of your comments here and appreciated your expressions as coming from a thoughtful person.

      However, you said: “All denominations are cults and I have never signed my name to any paper for church membership. Only Jesus can make you a member of His church.”

      I want to ask, Can we identify what Jesus’ church/congregation is? If we can, then you do not want to “sign on” to it because,,,,,why?

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
    • focalpoint
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:33am

      @Whitefang-” Can we identify what Jesus’ church/congregation is?”

      Most Bible scholars agree that the Church began on the day of Pentecost, a result of the promise that Jesus gave before he ascended to heaven. It would behoove us to read about and follow the patterns they established beginning on that day. People have changed since then, but God hasn’t. There is nothing that they taught and experienced that day and the years following that is not for us today, regardless of how much people try to explain it away.

      Report Post »  
    • WhiteFang
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:34am

      There is only one God. – Psalms 83:18 (KJV)

      And thankfully we have God’s Son, Jesus Christ who willingly sacrificed his life as a ransom for all of us. This act of justification honoured his Heavenly Father and opened the opportunity for all mankind to realize eternal life. – John 3:16, 17:3

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
    • focalpoint
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:46am

      The definition of the Trinity is so confusing it makes my head hurt. “According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

      The idea of 3 persons with an equal amount of power and authority is saying that there are 3 gods, in direct opposition to scripture. The cornerstone of Biblical faith is the concept of One Creator and Saviour. Believers of the Trinity must resort to a defense that says that it is a mystery not to be understood by humans. It is much simpler to just believe that the Bible means what it says; There is only one God.

      Report Post »  
    • mtcountrygrl
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:28am

      @ Focal
      Actually the Biblical definition of the Trinity is very simple, churches twist it and make it complicated. The word trinity is not in the Bible neither is the description as it being three persons. Here is the actual doctrine in a nutshell. The Bible says their is one God. The Bible says we are made in God’s immage. We have a physical body that walks the earth, a mind where we discern good and evil – right and wrong, and a spirit which communicates with God and is eternal. God the Father – the mind of God, Jesus – his physical manifestation of earth, The Holy Spirit – the spirit of God. One God, different parts, just like us. Simplify things?

      Report Post »  
    • GUNBLADE_POWER
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:25pm

      The doctrine of the Trinity was not invented centuries after the time of Christ and it was not invented by Constantine. Even though the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible, the doctrine itself can be derived from Scripture.

      For example: “14 May the grace of the LORD JESUS CHRIST(SON), and the love of GOD(FATHER), and the fellowship of the HOLY SPIRIT be with you all.” -2 Corinthians 13:14

      And: “14 How much more, then, will the blood of CHRIST(SON), who through the eternal SPIRIT(HOLY SPIRIT) offered himself unblemished to GOD(FATHER), cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!” -Hebrews 9:14

      Also, if you check the Christian writings from the first, second and third century, you will see that they believed in the Trinity as taught by the Apostle, long before the birth of Constantine.

      For example: the Didache, a liturgical manual written around the year 70 AD says that baptism must be done with water and in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Also, Ignatius of Antioch, who was a student of John The Apostle, wrote a Letter to the Ephesians around the year 110 AD saying: “[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the FATHER in JESUS CHRIST our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

      “For our GOD, JESUS CHRIST, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the HOLY SPIRIT” (ibid., 18:2

      Report Post »  
    • focalpoint
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:27pm

      @Mtcountrygrl

      You illustrated my point exactly. Sounds like you started out to explain the Trinitarian concept, but ended reinforcing my belief. There is only one God, but manifested in many ways. More than just three ways, by the way, but there’s neither time nor space to get into that here.

      @gunblade_power

      In your words lies the fallacy of the Trinitarian doctrine: “the doctrine itself can be derived”. Many people labor to try to shoehorn this doctrine into scripture. The verses you quoted do not prove the Trinity. They do nothing more than provide an implication to those who already have a preconceived notion to prove. For me, they emphatically point out the different manifestations of the same Spirit. Look instead for those scriptures that state the opposite, even before the cornerstone of the Jewish faith: the Schema, which states, “Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is One.” Isaiah 43 says, “I,even I, am the Lord and beside me there is no other.” Jesus Himself told the doubting Thomas, “When you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.”

      Your references to early literature do nothing to prove God’s identity. There is no record in scripture of anyone baptized in the way that you referenced. Every record of baptism in scripture reveals that baptism was always “in the Name of Jesus Christ”. Many churches repeat the words of Jesus from Matt 28;19, not doing what He said. It’s puzzling why so many people argue around what scripture plainly says.

      Report Post »  
    • THERAPTURCOMES
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:32pm

      Acts 2:32 God resurrected Christ
      Romans 8:11 Holy Spirit resurrected Christ
      John 2:19-21 Jesus resurrected Himself

      This is either a contradiction or the truth and I say it is the truth when God resurrected Himself

      Report Post »  
    • Jezreel
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:17pm

      Focalpoint, the Lord knows them that are his and let every man that names the name of Christ, depart from iniquity. Those that are His can have the true fellowship because the spirit of Christ in us bears witness that we are the sons of God. Usually, what we have Sunday mornings is not the “assemblying of the saints”. It is “gatherings programmed by man”. Church leaders and those who follow them actually are deceived into thinking that they can make God bend to their programs and timing. Actually, that is why God is not present on Sunday mornings. There is a counterfeit spirit of well being and people love to be entertained and watch their watches when they get out so they can go home and watch the football games. If we had the assemblying of the saints on Sunday mornings, you would see the mighty hand of God move and meetings would most probably not get out until much later in the day well into the evening. God is not a God of time, he is eternal and when we are in Him, we loose track of time itself also. To me, it is boring and a waste of time to attend a church Sunday morning, wait through the announcements, sing a few songs, watch the entertainment, then, hear a sermon that does not feed me at all but is just a repeat of what other men teach.

      Report Post »  
    • Jezreel
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:28pm

      Constantine wrote “baptise father son holy spirit” into the bible.
      http://www.everlastingkingdom.info/article/128/
      The apostles all baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.

      Report Post »  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:40pm

      There are some serious flaws in the site you listed for arguing against the doctrine of the trinity.

      http://www.tektonics.org/lp/matt2819.html

      http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi_mt28_20.htm

      Is Jesus His own Father?
      Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?
      If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn’t He still praying to Himself?
      If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, “we”?
      Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-8). But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn’t the Father, then who was it?

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 7:16pm

      @ FOCAL…you are not making any sense. Here are some examples to show your flawed logic about the trinity. With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous, yet they are not three ‘times,’ but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time. With space, height is distinct from width, which is distinct from depth, which is distinct from height. Yet, they are not three ‘spaces,’ but one. That is, they all share the same nature: space. With matter, solid is not the same as liquid, which is not the same as gas, which is not the same as solid. Yet, they are not three ‘matters,’ but one. That is, they all share the same nature: matter. Many teach that the concept of the Trinity actually constitues 3 gods. This is not a logical necessity. Instead of adding, why not multiply? One times one times one equals one. Why must addition be the criteria by which the doctrine is judged? It need not be. Not to mention the numbers of the bible suggest a trinity in that the holy number is 7 (3+4) which is a numeric representation of God (in 3 persons) carrying out His perfect will within the world (always represented by the numebr 4). Or 12 patriarchs or 12 apostles (3 x 4). The product of Gods (in 3 persosn) redemptive work in the world (4) is all his children (12 from the OT and 12 from the NT). This is then referenced as the 24 elders in Revelation around the throne. Thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:01pm

      BTW our universe is made of Time, Space, and Matter. Here we see the finger print of God even in His creation reflecting His very character. When a painter paints a picture, what is in him is reflected in the painting he produces. When a sculptor creates a work of art, it is from his heart and mind that the source of the sculpture is born. The work is shaped by his creative ability. The creators of art leave their marks, something that is their own, something that reflects what they are. Note that there are three sets of threes. In other words, there is a trinity of trinities. If we were to look at the universe and notice these qualities within it, is it fair to say that these are the fingerprints of God upon His creation? I think so. The 3 basic elements of our universe reflect the very nature of the God (in 3 persons) that created it. Thank you….

      Report Post » SLEAZYHIPPOs ILLEGITIMATE OFFSPRING  
    • januscatinhat
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:14pm

      It has been noticed in and out of all churches in the community and city here that girls at 16 who become really sexually active, especially with random men, women or any guy, burns out more quickly than girls who wait until real love strikes their fancy during or after college or later… Seems like they age faster, have more health problems, etc., and they merrily enjoy the brevity of youth feeling they are lucky to have an older guy “in love” with them. Older guy gets to relive his youth, sew his wild oats, live some fantasy or something. Can’t really tell who is 16 anymore anyway… Both better be checked for STDs and she needs to take pregnancy test. She sought counseling, but maybe really wanted him anyway…maybe enjoys the drama and attention…speculation, but guys beware… lost a brother to suicide due to his undying attraction to his wife who was more experienced at 16 than most men or women twice or more that age. Hate to see women take men down as much as hate to see men take women down…just saying…

      Report Post »  
  • biffo
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:28am

    As a Catholic I receive the most vitriol from Catholic hating Baptists with their “paedophile priest” mantra. Expect none of the same from we Catholics. Learn a lesson.

    Report Post »  
    • karenm
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:38am

      I‘m Catholic too but at least he wasn’t trying to poke a boy. The Catholic Church hierarchy tried to cover up pedophile priests. I wouldn’t compare this to that.

      Report Post » karenm  
    • biffo
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:47am

      Did NOT compare. My point was the intolerant, anti Catholic, Baptists can expect no anti Baptist push back from Catholics. They should look in the mirror.

      Report Post »  
    • sWampy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:53am

      While not Christ like, a 16 year old willing girl, is sure better than a 9 year old boy.

      Report Post »  
    • Verceofreason
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:00am

      On the plus side – it wasn’t a 16 year old boy!
      I’ll bet his wife is bigger than a house.

      Report Post » Verceofreason  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:08am

      Biffo
      good post
      don’t forget those who claim married priest would not commit this type of sin.

      They are already lining up to justify child abuse. “at least it’s a girl“ ”she was willing“ ”it’s because his wife is fat”

      NO. It is wrong when a priest does it, and it is wrong when any pastor does this.
      Sin is Sin.

      Report Post » by faith  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:14am

      @KARENM That is precisely what I was thinking..I am sure that the Catholic Church is responsible for turning a multitude of boys into homosexuals.. I recently was taken to a Walk of Emaus for 3 days..thinking it was just a spiritual retreat..where I would have a chance to go deeper into the things of God..there were 2 “pastors” there and one was teaching Catholicism..I asked him his denomination and he said nondenominational..but his teachings were Catholic..He said that Peter denied Christ 3 times..yet Jesus turned around and built the Church upon him..and they have to maintain that lie because the Church maintains that Peter was the first Pope..He was not..He was an Apostle..never a Pope..What Jesus was telling Peter was that the Holy Spirit had revealed to Peter that Jesus Himself was the Christ..the Son of God and that was the rock that the church was founded upon..and that our bodies are the temple of those who believe.. The second lie or half truth I heard was that idolatry was “love of self” only..while conveniently skipping over the 10 commandments in saying that thou shalt have no other gods before me and thou shalt make thee no graven images..Jesus said..pray to the Father in My name.. he never said to pray to saints or to Mary..this is idolatry..a sin which will prevent one from entering the kingdom of heaven..That is why so many have broken away from the Catholic Church. The control was like Communism there..but not as severe. didn’t like it.

      Report Post »  
    • Dismayed Veteran
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:21am

      As a Catholic, I pray for the brethren of the First Baptist Church of Hammond. I hope that they will find a pastor who is close to God’s word.

      Report Post » Dismayed Veteran  
    • Dismayed Veteran
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:31am

      Biffo

      They couldn’t resist the anti-Catholic vitriol. The temptation is just too much for them to bear. They are driven to do it. It is actually pretty funny and predictable.

      Report Post » Dismayed Veteran  
    • The Jewish Avenger
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:35am

      Amazing that within the last 55 years of Catholic relgious leaders

      4%
      thats FOUR PERCENT
      of ALL of these religious leaders
      religious leaders means not just the priests, but the bishops, cardinals, nuns and workers of the charities FOUR PERCENT have been ACCUSED of a pedophile act…
      and over 10% of the ones accused were dead and immediately sued for money… some accusers have never been announced to the community and towns have folded and changed names and removed plaques because of an unproven accusation….

      Pediphilism is a horrible thing…
      But people have ruined the lives of these clergymen for the sake of money AND in the name of PC..

      To blame Catholic religious leaders is nothing more than an unfourtunate campaign to dethrown our moral leaders in America so that they can replace it with non-traditional and call it the “norm” ONLY for the reason to control the masses because they will have no REASON to stand for anything!

      Anyone know the percent of the homosexual population that have been accused of pediphilism?
      No?

      Ever wonder why?

      “In The Gay Report, homosexual researchers report data showing that better than 7 out of 10 homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16 to 19. ”
      http://www.thegayreport.net/

      70% vs. 4%… hmmmm…..

      ok lets assume its tainted data… even if a poll by a gay group asking gays is 94 2/7% wrong, its still more than 4%!

      Where is the outcry!?
      Where is the headhunt from MSM?

      Report Post » The Jewish Avenger  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:39am

      Ashes,

      The pastor called himself, non-denominational, yet you still attack Catholics?
      You do not know or understand what Catholics believe.
      This is a story about sexual abuse by a non-catholic. You still attack the Church.
      Why do you insist on attacking what you know nothing about?

      Again the “pastor” was not a Catholic you still blame the Catholic Church
      and you do it with untruths you have already been corrected on.

      Report Post » by faith  
    • SquidVetOhio
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:40am

      Yea, I don’t quite understand the catholic bashing. I’m fundamental Baptist and disagree with catholic theology on a mulititude of levels but, this story had nothing to do with catholics. Most catholics are good people. It was a wicked man who called himself a Baptist like myself (although, I don’t know which Baptist denomination. Being that is a mega-church I‘m sure it’s not the same as mine). Let’s leave the catholics alone. Debate theology if you like, don‘t demonize the people who haven’t done anything.

      Report Post » SquidVetOhio  
    • iampraying4u
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:12am

      The roman catholic church is the best man made religion in the world.

      Report Post »  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:16pm

      @IAMPRYINFORYOU Good point!
      To the Catholics..The Walk of Emaeus was founded by Jesuit Priests..It is a Catholic and Christians together and I was mortified that there was no discussion allowed pertaining to truth..I was raised a Baptist and now consider myself nondemonational..but that was a priest disguising himself as a nondenominational. pastor..he had too many of the Catholic teachings.. and you have no knowledge of what I know.. I do know that he taught Catholic untruth..It is true that there are some pastors who are not born again..Pastors do not drive home 1Corinthians 6:9 which tells who will not enter the kingdom of God. Girls and boys are not taught to abstain from sex until they are married and to only have sex with their husband or wife..for a lifetime..No adultery..no homosexuality..no partiers or drunkards.no thieves..when one is born again..one puts away those things..but think of what a better world it would be if people obeyed Gods laws…and taught their children to from birth

      Report Post »  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:27pm

      You shall not bear false witness

      I see why you didn’t list that one. It must not apply to “born agains”

      Report Post » by faith  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:56pm

      @BY FAITH…Just because I didn‘t name it doesn’t mean I don’t believe it..There are a number of other things mentioned even in other scripture that I am sure I did not mention..of course..thou shalt not bear false witness should apply to men of the clergy as well as the people of God and I don’t think that the Catholic teacher or Priests fall in line with that..do you? It seems that they all lie..just like Islam to protect what the Church is founded upon..and they teach their people to kneel to idols..(graven images) I will follow God..not some man..The truth is in the Holy Bible..not in church indoctrination..I don’t care what church you belong to..It will be upon the head of the individual as to whom they followed on judgement day. I place my trust in Jesus/Yeshua..He died for my sins..and I only have to go to him and repent and ask forgiveness..not some false prophet…

      Report Post »  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:27pm

      You are long on accusations, but have offered ZERO proof.
      You follow the teachings of one man, YOU
      Graven images, god commanded Moses make two angels to put on top of the Ark of the Covenant (those are graven images) what about the Serpent He had Moses place on a staff, when people looked at it they were healed. You have pictures of loved ones in your house? By your “logic” those are graven images.

      Just one source for your lies please
      I bet it’s the same source that told you 911 was an inside job

      Your posts prove you know nothing about the Catholic Church

      Report Post » by faith  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:39pm

      Everything we need to know about Ashes is this:

      “911 was an inside job”

      Report Post » by faith  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:59pm

      “…Just because I didn‘t name it doesn’t mean I don’t believe it..”

      That is strange, because you don’t offer the same charity when you offer your “opinion” on the Catholic Church.

      Report Post » by faith  
    • riseandshine
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:51pm

      Everything we need to know about By Faith is this:

      “I believe the official story of 9/11 is true”.

      Report Post » riseandshine  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:03pm

      Riseandshine

      Where did you get that from. Please show me where I said I believe everything in the officail report?

      You lie!!!!

      Report Post » by faith  
    • by faith
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:11pm

      Rise and LIE

      so it’s either George Bush and Dick Chaney blew up the buildings or believe everything in the official report?

      There is no other possible option?

      What a stupid comment.
      Conspiracy wacko

      Report Post » by faith  
    • riseandshine
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:18pm

      I’m sorry, By Faith. I shouldn’t have used the quotation marks. I was making a point…but still..not good.

      Report Post » riseandshine  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 7:38pm

      @BY FAITH 9/11 was an inside job..here is an insider to tell what happend..She was a Translater for the FBI.. Now call her a liar http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=ylKWivA3B4M&NR=1
      Here is d o c u m e n t a r y proof..
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28tE0fKpISM
      Here is most likely the culprit behind it..It is called the Communist New World Order Smart boy..
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1_L30JXpaY

      Report Post »  
    • riseandshine
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:49pm

      @By Faith…..9/11 was a false flag / inside job….that’s simply a fact…..call me whatever you like….it won’t change that fact. By the way….I don’t know anyone who thinks George Bush and Dick Cheney blew up any buildings.

      I hope you have a wonderful evening and weekend. Good night, By Faith.

      Report Post » riseandshine  
  • Beachbaby
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:25am

    This is really sick and disgusting. The girl is sicko too.

    Report Post »  
    • Female
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:39am

      The girl is young, impressionable and has been taken advantage of in the second worse way. (Being w/ a pastor comes right after a father.)

      Report Post »  
  • sawbuck
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:19am

    We know there will be a great falling away..
    And it’s becoming very clear how it’s going to happen…

    Dear Pastors :
    Satan roams the earth seeking whom he may devour..

    The higher you are….On that Christian pedestal he can knock you off ….
    The better.. Becuase Satan knows he will net some of your flock that scatter..
    On your way down..

    Report Post » sawbuck  
    • THERAPTURCOMES
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:41am

      I doubt this is it. If a person is saved he is always saved and if they leave then they never were really a member of the body of Christ 1 John 2:19

      This i a sign of the APOSTATE church of the last days. This is all the more reason to get out there and spread ther news of Jesus Christ and His death, Burial and resurrection

      Report Post »  
    • IraHayesFlagRaiser
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:43am

      Although this man has lost his right, just like Esau in Gen. 25, this man SOLD his right to under-shepherd Christ’s church, by violating a basic command to keep one’s eyes and hands to himself and treat all younger women as his sister, he violated the Churches trust. Now we must stand the same test .. the same accountability. Jesus himself said “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” John 8:7

      Report Post » IraHayesFlagRaiser  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:16am

      Another hypocrisy I couldn’t stand while being a Christian.

      The, “Once you’re a true Christian, you’ll never turn away.”
      You then point to the millions of ex Christians and get, “oh well they were never TRUE Christians.”

      Report Post »  
    • SquidVetOhio
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:34am

      @MODERATION

      There’s no hypocracy. It”s true, there’s no such thing as a “former christian”. You never were, ever, period. I can call myself a rugby player, doesn’t make me a rugby player.

      It’s got nothing to do with judging you, it’s based on what is true. If a white man says, “I’m a former black man” you know it can’t be true because there is no former black men. (well, I grant you Michael Jackson)

      If you were truly a born again christian, you would have to be more powerful than God Almighty to no longer be one. You’re not.

      I hope you repent. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But I will not allow you to call God a liar without rebuke.

      Report Post » SquidVetOhio  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:02am

      @SQUIDVETOHIO

      And I won’t let you make such a stupid comment without rebuke.

      So you’re telling me someone who was a preacher for 20 years and then turned away from Christianity was “never a true Christian”?

      As I said above, religious people live in a world of self contradictions that allows them to live their life without actually questioning what they believe.

      People talk about how good Christianity is(or another religion if it’s a Jew, Muslim, etc). When something then bad happens you say, “oh well that person was never a TRUE Christian.”

      You people run around calling other people of the different denomination heretics and saying that you’re form is the TRUTH.

      It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so heart breaking to see how deluded people have become from this nonsense.

      Also, your God, if he exists IS a liar.

      Report Post »  
    • Tractorboy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:56am

      Hey Moderation, So no heaven or hell in your world outlook I presume, the universe is just created out of thin air, everthing around us is just a figment of our imagination, or are you something that crawled out of a mud puddle? Yeah I’m sure your right about God, why would he create this place and then do something stupid like passing along the rules to Moses and teachers like Jesus, on how to live and treat each other, and then use that system to sort souls in the end. You really seemed bugged about Christainity, sounds like you went to a bad house of worship. I feel sorry for you. God Bless in case your wrong.

      Report Post » Tractorboy  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:36pm

      @TRACTORBOY

      I get bugged at any system that teaches what I think as nonsense.

      You make a bunch of assumptions in your post.
      1. That a God exists
      2. That Jesus’s claims were legitimate
      3. That a Heaven and a Hell exists
      4. That a such thing as a soul exists.

      You need to prove those things before you expect me to take your other arguments seriously.

      Report Post »  
    • Tractorboy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:58pm

      @Moderation, Lets start from the beginning In your world where did all this stuff come from? How did it get created? If Not God what? don’t give me the big bang crap, you and I know that is a lame excuse for all the matter that lines the universe. As you are a former Christain any concerns or second guessing about what Jesus’s brother said about taming the tongue, or are you all in as for rejecting God?

      Report Post » Tractorboy  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:15pm

      @Tractor

      “don’t give me the big bang crap, you and I know that is a lame excuse for all the matter that lines the universe?”

      The big bang is the best possible theory based on the evidence given. There are always new advancements in science and Quantam Mechanics. For example, “nothing” in science isn’t the same as “nothing” that we generally perceive. What we can perceive as nothing, could be something. There are people far more versed in this stuff and I’m not smart enough to get all of it, but just because I don’t understand how something came to be, doesn‘t mean I get to make stuff up and assert it’s true.

      “As you are a former Christain any concerns or second guessing about what Jesus’s brother said about taming the tongue, or are you all in as for rejecting God?”

      I don’t think any God exists, much less a specific one, but I also can’t prove it with refutable evidence. It isn’t my job to prove your point. You may say, “you’re shifting the burden of proof” which is untrue.

      My stance isn’t “there is no God.” my stance is, “the evidence you have provided(or lack thereof) in my view, is insufficient. Get better evidence.”

      It would make no sense for a lawyer who is prosecuting someone for murder to say, “well the defense hasn‘t proven that he DIDN’T do it.”

      What I can say is that if a God exists, specifically the God of the Bible, I couldn’t worship it. It’s so horribly evil that no such being would be worthy of eter

      Report Post »  
    • sawbuck
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:28pm

      Mod.. GOD IS NOT A LIAR..!
      We may not totally understand Gods ways, but we have His Word
      and when conveying what we are trying to say to you ,
      It becomes very frustrating because you have such a spiteful interpretation
      of our faith and Lets be honest..
      As Long as you have that deep rooted disdain for our faith..
      It’s almost pointless to reason with you.

      May The Lord Jesus open your eyes.. I know He can..
      He opened Saul’s.

      Report Post » sawbuck  
    • The_Cabrito_Goat
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:43pm

      Please, just ignore him! You’re giving him exactly what he wants.

      Report Post » The_Cabrito_Goat  
    • Shifty6
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:04pm

      @MODERATION – Ok you have to provide the same EVIDENCE of the “big bang…..(wait for it….) THEORY. I fully consent that based on the scientific definition – creation is a theory. You can believe what you want, but you have to, by definition consent that creation is in fact a theory that is just as plausible as big bang. To be scientific fact it HAS to be OBSERVED. If you don‘t observe it you can’t call it a fact.

      Just remember you and ONLY you have to decide if there is a God. If you don’t believe you are responsible. I do think it is funny that “athiests” try so hard to disprove God. I don’t believe in alien life forms. I really don’t care if you do. Why do athiests care if I do believe in God?

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:13pm

      @SAWBUCK

      The thing is, you don’t take that “we may not totally always understand his ways” approach to your whole faith.

      God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit from the tree of knowledge that he would surely die.
      The serprent then told Eve that she would surely not die.
      They ate of the fruit….they didn’t die……who’s the liar here?

      Now you may say, “oh well God meant like a spiritual death.” That’s not what the Bible says, and since according to the Bible, Adam and Eve didn’t know good from evil(right or wrong) until AFTER they ate the fruit, they aren’t very smart people, and needed things spelled out for them more.

      The thing is, you all come at the Bible from different view points and different interpretations(likely the one you were raised in or had the most contact with). You all disagree on very big aspects of your faith, yet you call each other heretics, “false prophets” and “not true Christians.” You all claim the same divinity behind your interpretation.

      My interpretation is that God knowingly lied to Adam about dying if he ate from the fruit, I just don’t claim divinity behind it..

      You have had it drilled into your head that no matter what, God is ALWAYS good, which is why you search for rationalizations and justifications for why it would be a good deed.

      When you can’t find one(especially in regards to the OT), you simply say, “that doesn’t apply to us anymore” forgetting that Jesus IS God(same God as OT).

      Report Post »  
    • Tractorboy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:17pm

      @moderation, So your explaination of the universe is left at the waters edge of whatever man can figure out about that is good enough for me…you do know, man will never figure that one out..will always be a therory…. I don’t know which Bible your using? the message we are taught is about love, God is a loving God, I don’t know where you get God is evil unless you take the messages out of context, shame on anyone who does take things out of context, that is then a lie, which makes everthing said suspect as a lie…..

      Report Post » Tractorboy  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:26pm

      @SHIFTY6

      “Ok you have to provide the same EVIDENCE of the “big bang…..(wait for it….) THEORY. I fully consent that based on the scientific definition – creation is a theory”

      This is the problem when talking to people. They don’t know what a “theory” is in terms of science. What is one of Einsteins theories called? The THEORY of gravity. Do you discount it because it’s only a THEORY.

      Creationism isn’t built on science or observation. Creationism is built on revelation.

      Science observed fossils and came to the conclusion that dinosaurs roamed the Earth.
      Creationism took what science has learned, and applied it to their holy book.

      Check out this video
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1xUiuZvUuw&feature=related

      In it, the creationists says, “…if an experiment on the surface, seems to disagree with the word of God, we go with the word of God.” That ISN’T Science.

      Science is potentially falsifiable.
      Creationism isn’t.

      Science observes first, comes to conclusions later, then questions those conclusions over and over
      Creationism already has the answer and any conclusion that is counter is wrong, until the evidence is overwhelming, then finally incorporates those ideas into their “belief.”

      Besides, which version of intelligent design do you prescribe to?

      Alien life forms are potentially falsifiable. They would be observable and testable. Also, people don’t try to pass legislation because they believe in aliens.

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:36pm

      @TRACTORBOY

      Just because you are taught your God is love, doesn’t mean he would necessarily then be “love.”

      You say if someone gets a message of evil from God, that they are then taking things out of context. I say that you are looking through your religion through rose colored glasses.

      No rational thinking person could come to the conclusion that people deserve eternal punishment in hell for not accepting a certain God. Whatever that is, it sure as hell isn’t “love.”

      A lot of Christianity accepts that people are BORN evil and sinners, and worthy of an eternal punishment for being born(through original sin of Adam). It is only through accepting that a human sacrifice on your behalf was necessary to cure you from such sin of being born. Whatever that is, it isn’t love.

      A lot of Christians are taught to look at Abraham’s faith as honorable. That he loved God so much he was willing to sacrifice his child. Whatever that is, it isn’t love.

      A loving God wouldn’t allow millions and millions of children across the world die of easily curable diseases.

      It’s why you get Christians who when something good happens say, “Praise God, God is good!” and when something bad happens they say, “God is mysterious, who are we to understand God’s will?”

      If God is ALWAYS good then the only correct response after a kid with aids in Africa dies of starvation would be, “God is good, praise God!”

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 2:59pm

      @THE_CABRITO_GOAT

      If by “what I want” you mean a rationale debate about something, then yes, I’m getting what I want.

      Debate, how horrible
      Skepticism, how horrible
      Getting challenged on your viewpoint of the world, how horrible.

      I could be friends with anyone of you in real life. Despite our vast differences, as long as I can have fun with you, I don’t care.

      It is hardcore believers who are scared to have friendships with non Christians or Atheists
      They use verses fro, Matthew, 1st Corinthians, 2nd Corinthians, 2nd Timothy to defend their stance.

      Despite me being atheist, my closest friends are Evangelicals. I see them almost every other night. One of my friends recently got married and I was in his wedding. I bowed my head during the prayer part of the ceremony as to not potentially ruin any pictures Did I listen to concentrate on the prayer? Not at all, but I wasn‘t going to ruin a special moment for them because I don’t think a God exists.

      I know they believe I’m likely going to hell for not being a Christian unless I “repent.”
      They know that I know that they believe I’m going to hell for not being a Christian unless I “repent.”
      They also know that I think a lot of their viewpoints are wacky.
      They also don’t needlessly feel to preach to me. They occasionally ask me if I want to come to church, and I say respectfully decline, but I also do every once in awhile go to a community night where they play board games.

      Report Post »  
    • Tractorboy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:13pm

      @ moderation, We are our brothers keepers, disease that can be cured is the resposibility of my fellow brother and sisters in christ, we do it better and far cheaper than goverments do… our house of worship, is fully involved with water projects and such to not only share the word of God and his goodness, but work to stamp out famine and deseases and to bring glory to God thought our faith and deeds, we try to be like little Jesuses, we also want you back, seems like you must be a lawyer or something, started out in life with faith became a lawyer and now it doesn’t meet the burden of proof. Abraham is old testament, God’s covenant is to never do that stuff again, no more floods etc. but the way things are going sometimes I wonder if he is going to change his mind.

      Report Post » Tractorboy  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:34pm

      @TRACTORBOY

      So wait, requiring proof is a bad thing?

      I’m sorry but I value observation over revelation.

      You also miss the point of what i’m talking about with Abraham(as almost every believer does).

      The point isn’t whether or not you would kill your child
      It’s not that according to the Bible God stopped Abraham from killing his child.

      It’s that, the Bible holds up the story of Abraham willing to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, as a story of Abraham’s love of God. That he loved God so much that he was willing to kill his kid. In that instance, asking of a child sacrifice was morally right in his eyes, because God commanded him to do so. It was perfectly in character for God to ask for a child sacrifice(ironically he sent Jesus later on, again more hocus pocus).

      No God who is supposedly all loving, would demand a child sacrifice, and if he did, the only correct response is, “no, go to hell.”

      I‘m glad you aren’t one of those nutjob Christians that thinks when 9/11 happened that it was a “message from God.”

      How can you say that God may change his mind? I thought God was unchanging. I thought he is the same now as he always has been. I thought he was the beginning and end, that he knew all of human history, present and future.

      This is exactly what I’m talking about. These feel good phrases religions to justify their beliefs use AREN’T in their Bibles.

      Report Post »  
    • Tractorboy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 3:57pm

      @ Moderation, I was kidding about God changing his mind, God loves us and wants a close relationship with him as we bring glory to him by our good deeds and faith, you follow the 10 commandments and try to live a sin free life, and when you die and souls are sorted out you will be seated with God the father, not shuffled off to hang with the others who have rejected God….You know the only thing you can take from this world is another soul, I will pray for you… God bless my atheist friend…catch you on the flip side I got chickens to take care of.

      Report Post » Tractorboy  
    • sawbuck
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 4:03pm

      Mod..
      Your base your assumption that the death was suppose to be instantaneous..
      In fact Adam and Eve both died.. Not sure about how old Eve was but Adam was 930 years old at time of his death..
      And Given that God told them that they would surely die if they ate from the tree of knowledge .. I would have to assume that they were would have lived forever as long as they didn’t from it.
      But God did not lie ..They did in fact according to the Bible…Die I’m guessing from old age.. Now some, maybe even you ,may assert that its ludicrous to think someone could live that old ..To that I say ..I believe its even more ludicrous thinking we derived from apes.

      Report Post » sawbuck  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 4:47pm

      @Sawbuck

      See, here we go, another interpretation. What I usually hear is, “oh well God meant a spiritual death.”

      “To that I say ..I believe its even more ludicrous thinking we derived from apes.”

      There’s the problem, in one sentence you described the main difference between us.

      You’re believing
      I’m thinking

      By you believing, you’re not open to any other possibility other then what your Bible says. Anything that is counter to that, is wrong.

      By thinking, you are open to the possibility that you could be wrong, and that if the evidence supports a better conclusion, I can then freely no longer think that way.

      There is also credible evidence to lead towards evolution as fact. There is NO evidence outside of your holy book that lends credence that someone could live to 930.

      That is the difference between science and creationism and why creationism or “intelligent design” shouldn’t be taught in public schools

      You seem to value the revelation of your holy book, over the observation of science.

      I think we can both agree that non science doesn’t belong in science classes right?

      Put it in a philosophy class or some other class.

      @Tractor
      Thank you for your kind words. I also have hope for you. That one day you can remove the shackles of your religion and think for yourself. That you didn‘t view yourself as a person worthy of eternal punishment because I sure as hell don’t think that of you.

      Report Post »  
    • mrsclark
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 5:09pm

      I think that the issue is that Satan is going to attack (tempt) those who are spreading the word. Obviously he was, with such a large church. Satan is not going to attack Christians who are silent and not spreading the Gospel because they arent doing damage to him, but those who are bringing more attention and souls to The Lord are the one’s who are going to get the focus, especially a very public figure because as he falls, others will fall away from the church in disappointment and disillusionment. Then he has done his damage.
      Remember we are in a spiritual war here.

      Report Post » mrsclark  
  • dirtydog1776
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:19am

    Probably friends with Bill Clinton and Roman Polanski.

    Report Post » dirtydog1776  
  • mfields98
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:16am

    So sad. As a Independant Baptist, I am embarrassed that one of the top leaders in the Church today has committed this sin. I only hope that it doesn’t cause the members to lose faith in the true leader of the Church, Jesus. I will be praying for all the members of FBC and the families involved.

    Report Post » mfields98  
    • taxpro4u03
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:53am

      Whether in religion, politics or business (even the 501(c) 3s ) the ‘minions’ are oft NOT involved in the ‘scandals/cover-ups.’ — It is the ones ‘in power.’ More often than not, those KEEPING them in the ‘puppet-king’ position of visibility are the “arms length” financiers. Most sheeple ‘want’ to ‘believe’ in those who are their ‘leaders’ – who would first do no harm – and LEAD by example. Two of the most successful examples of leaders in humanitarian efforts for LIBERTY and ‘freedom’ were indigent. — Ghandi and Mother Theresa. Neither of whom could be ‘bought’ “Church” means ‘people,’ people. — Not a ‘building,’shrine, temple or an organizational power structure labeled under a false doctrine as ‘faith-based’ to AVOID (as opposed to EVADE) rendering unto Caesar… its more about MONEY… not ‘faith.’ — Gut-check and hold your LEADERS to account.

      Report Post »  
    • ModerationIsBest
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:13am

      Mother Theresa couldn’t be bought? I suggest you check your statements and see if the facts bear your stance.

      Report Post »  
  • willingtoupe
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:13am

    It gets better America. Christian values.

    Report Post » willingtoupe  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:47am

      willing
      there may be a tendency to cast slurs on GOd’s word, because of devils like this, but actually the opposite is true:

      God says, ‘the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it???’ God always has it right, every-time, every-place, every-where. He has mans number thats for sure.

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • Verceofreason
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:03am

      Since he loves ‘chicken’ so much
      guess he’s heading you know where!

      Report Post » Verceofreason  
  • fire_fighter557
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:13am

    Soon all of the Mega Church leaders are going to stumble and fall. Just in time for the persecution and the “great falling away” to begin.

    Report Post »  
    • Watchingtheweasels
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:20am

      I really don’t think that the “mega church” has any place in the Bible. When a church is blessed by God, rather than hoarding believers to increase cashflow it is to metastasize and go into the mission field. This is a creation not of scripture, but of MBAs who are trying to build small towers of Babel.

      Report Post »  
  • Deibido
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:12am

    The darkness goes after all who speak of and for the Light. It’s just a fact… some fall and others do not. It’s just a part of being a spiritual being with a physical body…

    Report Post »  
  • pilgrim249
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:11am

    Out of the small, comes His glory.

    God chose Earth, a tiny speck in His universe as a place to display His creative beauty, and as the place where the redemptive battle between good and evil would be waged. He chose tiny Israel, and Bethlehem (Too small to be considered among the cities of Judah).

    Mega-churches and expansive TV “ministries” corrupt the Church . Find a small, loving fellowship, with a humble, faithful pastor.

    Report Post »  
    • JustPeachy
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:57am

      A “small humble church” is no guarantee! Men who have even started out Godly can fall (see the story of David’s life from Scripture!). People judge and fear what may be out of what they consider the “norm” or what they consider “right” or “wrong.” I’d advise not being so quick to judge! It is highly possible to find an ungodly man who “looks right,” pastoring over a small flock as much as a larger flock. and it’s possible to find Godly men in BOTH positions as well. God doesn’t move in some small preconceived “box” in which WE think looks “good” and “right.” He’s not bound by our ideas.

      Report Post » JustPeachy  
  • ValidFib
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:10am

    It’s the oldest deception in the Satan/Marxist book of distruction and chaos tools. The forbidden fruit has fatal strings and deviants know that going into the illicit affair. It’s a childish, ego driven act with a long history of taking down very large respected institutions (Penn State, Catholic Church, Jimmy Swaggart, PTL Network) in its wake yet idiots still fall for it. I don’t get it but like Paul Newman said, “why have hamburger out when there is steak at home”.

    Report Post » ValidFib  
  • blackyb
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:04am

    That man is evil. He is an old bonified jerk.

    Report Post » blackyb  
    • piper22
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:35pm

      But he just wants to be with who he loves! You’re not one of those bigoted Chick-fil-A people are you?

      Report Post »  
  • lylejk
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:00am

    The temptations that pastors and any folk with certain power is more tremendous then I can even fathom. Glad that burden will never befall on me. I’ve seen what happened in churches local to me when pastors have affairs; just sad. Yes, pastors are human; we all are sinners, but if indeed the pastor is truly born again, he will have to answer for his witness; wood, hay and stubble will be what he will present to the alter of God in Heaven. His witness to others here on earth is completely gone unfortunately. :)

    Report Post » lylejk  
    • UpholderOftheConstitution
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:18am

      I see you have never read the story of King David, and read the part where God Himself professes him to be “a man after my own heart” even after David has an adulterous affair and murders the husband of Bathsheba.

      Read your Bible, bro before you make yourself out to be an ignorant “soap box” preacher spilling out your ignoramus point of view. You have no evidence whatsoever that he will be presented hay, wood, and stubble when he stands before God.

      Report Post »  
    • lylejk
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:46am

      Doesn‘t mean the gifts given to God at the alter won’t be tarnished idiot. Heck, there will be a lot of wood, hay and stubble burnt at the alter of God in the end time including from me, but I’ll be there and so will this guy if he truly is born again. As for his witness, I stand by my words. Just as an end note, even the devil knows how to quote scripture but how he shares it reveals all. Go alway already; despise deceivers like you. :)

      Report Post » lylejk  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:56am

      cmon upholder, u are better than that.

      it was just a matter of time before somebody mentioned david-
      apples and oranges-different purpose in a different economy. This man is MORE guilty than David!!!!
      Look at all the bibles, books, helps this man had that david did not. And not to mention, ALL the revelation……

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • UpholderOftheConstitution
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:39am

      Also to caveat on this, John I will agree he wrote a ton of books on dating, marriage, and family. And doing this tarnishes every single on of those books and his wife’s books too. But what I truly find disturbing is people glorying and happy of this man’s fall. Seriously? How sick and wrong are you to be happy when a man (regardless of how pompous and pig-headed jackass he is) falls like this. And if you are happy about this you need some help and major help.

      I have read a couple of his books back in the day, but after this it rather trumps anything he ever wrote.

      Report Post »  
    • john vincent
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:42pm

      upholder
      seriously? where have I inferred that i am happy or gloating about this mans shortcoming?
      Its neither imagined or implied. Again, u are better than that.

      Report Post » john vincent  
    • lylejk
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 6:05pm

      I‘m definitely not happy about this guy’s downfall; hate to see these stories. I remember the tele-evangelist snafus in the past too. I will admit that I have a bias for moderate size church and don’t care too much for the supposed mega churches, but that’s just my taste. Too many folk in places of trust have failed including, as I mentioned, a pastor of a church that I use to be a member of. Men of God (Pastors, deacons, et.al. not to mention priests, rabbis and other spiritual leaders) are tempted the most because satan wants these men of God to fail. Again, I can’t even comprehend the temptations that the devil throughs at these men, but God placed these men to positions to do His Will. Thank God that my calling’s more for being a warrior then a leader. I hope I’m not here when Eph. Ch.6 comes into full play, but if I am, I hope that I can stand and not fall. :)

      Report Post » lylejk  
  • PA PATRIOT
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:58am

    Another world comes crashing down .

    I feel sorry for his family because they are the last to find out about his actions.

    Report Post » PA PATRIOT  
  • piper60
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:53am

    The church is right for firing this guy. At least they did not transfer him like the Catholic church would have.

    Report Post » piper60  
  • Hickory
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:50am

    Religious leaders should start right now to look inward and weed these pieces of crap out now. It burns me up to watch one of these demons get up in front of their congregation and preach to them about their sins while he is scoping out the crowd for a good screw. When caught, they should be put in a set of stocks in front of the church or temple. You don’t know what stocks are? Look it up. They used to use them in the old days for things like this.

    Report Post » Hickory  
  • Gonzo
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:48am

    Well, at least it was a girl.

    Report Post » Gonzo  
    • Locked
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:02am

      Honestly, I’d be less upset if it was an adult man rather than a female child. You really think it’s better that a 16 year old minor was abused rather than a grown adult consenting? :-/

      Report Post »  
    • pilgrim249
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:16am

      Locked—Your comment is sick.

      If you are gonna do wrong, at least do it right.

      Report Post »  
    • bikerr
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:26am

      @locked—– “But it should be noted that, in Indiana, 16 is the legal age of consent for sexual activity — the lowest of any U.S. state”—-Again you failed to read the article.Typical.

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:34am

      @Pilgrim

      I would still argue that a consenting adult is less “wrong” than a child. Apparently you disagree.

      @Bikerr
      “Again you failed to read the article.Typical.”

      Apparently you did, actually. The girl can legally consent to sex – but I said she’s a child (and a minor). She is; until the age of 18, as per US federal law.

      Enjoy your 16-year olds, pervert.

      Report Post »  
  • Pastor Melissa
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:44am

    Good for the church working through this so quickly. They didn’t try to hide from it, or sweep it under the rug. That is how a church should deal with conflict.

    Report Post » Pastor Melissa  
    • jman-6
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:06am

      Pastor????

      Report Post »  
    • NOTAMUSHROOM
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:16am

      No offense intended PastorMelissa but “conflict” is a word that minimizes the vile and disgusting reality of this CRIME against this girl, legal age of consent or not. What he did is so wrong in so many ways that I cannot enumerate them succinctly here.

      Report Post »  
    • Pastor Melissa
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:48am

      Yes. I am ordained through, not just one, but two congregations and I have denominational standing.

      If you think I am minimizing the issue, I am not. I have seen too many congregations allow serious boundary breeches go unchecked or unresolved because they don’t want to deal with the conflict. It ultimately makes the problem worse and spiritually wounds more people.

      This church acted in a responsible way. Hopefully, they are seeking counseling for this family and praying for everyone involved.

      Report Post » Pastor Melissa  
    • hatchetjob
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 1:32pm

      PASTOR???? This is a joke, right????

      Report Post » hatchetjob  
    • piper22
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:41pm

      @Notamushroom, do you hear yourself? “, vile and disgusting reality of this CRIME against this girl, legal age of consent or not. What he did is so wrong in so many ways that I cannot enumerate them ”

      His actions were more normal and natural than two “gays”. Age of consent means “consenting adult”, the same line “gays” use to legitimize themselves.

      Report Post »  
  • OutlawJoseyWales
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:42am

    Pastors are simply people, but sadly, this will destroy the faith of so many. However, politically, I don’t know why ANY demoncrat party member is saying anything bad about this man. I mean, THEIR god(bill clinton) was said to be just fine destroying the life of a young woman while he was the most powerful man in the world. AND THAT WAS JUST FINE, you know-there were probably members of this same church that voted DEMONCRAT and said “hey, it’s OK, his personal life should NOT interfer with his job.” BUT they would be just as wrong then as now.
    The problem with “christians” who are DEMONCRATS is that they will be judged by GOD for their sin of supporting the murder of babies.
    YOU CANNOT BE A CHRISTIAN AND SUPPORT ABORTION.

    Report Post »  
    • eric6161
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 9:05am

      You also can not be a Christian and lose your faith over the sin someone else commits. You can be a social attendee of a church and quit going. Our church was founded by the only perfect person to ever live… all the members are imperfect and are sinners. While we strive to be like Him we fall woefully short.

      Report Post »  
    • Shifty6
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 10:00am

      News flash……you don’t know the heart of man. Well, I guess you could, I mean if you were God. Are YOU God?

      OK all the people on here who have NEVER lusted after another person pick up your stones, and start throwing. WE are no different than this guy.

      What he did was absolutely wrong however, but this man or his sin is not the standard we are called to live by. If you can live up to the standard of a perfect, sinless, Jesus, your in! Congratulations!!

      man we love to kick people when they are down don’t we? Where is the “Restoring Love” crowd? Where is your compassion and pity for this guy in his stumbling?

      Report Post »  
  • copatriots
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:38am

    Sad, sad, sad. No doubt the trolls will be here en masse.

    Just remember folks…….all humans are sinful and imperfect. All fall short of the glory of God. Praise Him for his forgiveness and mercy!

    Report Post »  
  • Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
    Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:33am

    As the leader of any church, one doing thus has forfeited their right and calling to lead any church or other group for good. The credibility and integrity that are required for the positon to be of effect are tarnished for all of time; his calling to the position meant nothing for the time he spent with the girl in question, and for that he needs to go.

    Never again should he lead any church or religious body; same as with anyone in a similiar position who has done the same.

    Report Post » Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}  
    • UpholderOftheConstitution
      Posted on August 2, 2012 at 8:52am

      I couldn’t agree more. This is very sad and the fact I knew this man and many folks from this dear church. While I did not agree with many things out of this church, it was still a church trying to do the right thing, and for all I knew Jack Schaap was a man trying to do right. I heard about this Sunday night and it broke my heart and my families heart for we all have a stake in this church and knew this man.

      We have been praying for the families involved and the church, but Schaap will and should never pastor any church ever again.

      Report Post »  
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